Episode 152 · 10 December 2024 · 52:47
How to motivate older employees, christmas party drama and Apple's latest lawsuit. PLUS! Katie O'Malley's Hot Take on Leadership Training - This Week in Work, 10th December 2024
How to motivate older employees, christmas party drama and Apple's latest lawsuit. PLUS! Katie O'Malley's Hot Take on Leadership Training - This Week in Work, 10th December 2024
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What motivates older workers?
news roundup#older-workers#motivation#workplace-study
The psychology of workplace secrets
news roundup#secrets#psychology#workplace
Apple's employee privacy lawsuit
news roundup#apple#privacy#lawsuit#employees
Hot Take: Leadership training is broken with Katie O'Malley
Workplace Surgery: Burnout and KPIs
workplace surgery#burnout#kpis#workplace-surgery
Workplace Surgery: Remote work boundaries
workplace surgery#remote-work#boundaries#work-life-balance
Workplace Surgery: Christmas party dilemma
workplace surgery#christmas-party#workplace-culture#dilemma
Next episode teaser and outro
news roundup#teaser#outro#next-episode
Show notes
How to Motivate Older Employees, Christmas Party Drama & Apple's Latest Lawsuit — PLUS! Katie O'Malley's Hot Take on Leadership Training
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the four distinct motivator types among older workers, the double-edged sword of workplace secrets, and Apple's employee privacy lawsuit. Plus, leadership coach Katie O'Malley delivers a scorching hot take on why traditional leadership training is failing, and the World-Famous Workplace Surgery tackles burnout, remote work boundaries, and Christmas party drama.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. What actually motivates older workers? Leanne shares findings from Occupational Psychology Outlook identifying four distinct motivator types among proactive older employees: Strategists (focused on legacy and meaningful work), Sandboxers (love exploring new opportunities), Collaborators (thrive on teamwork), and Tacticians (driven by mastery and skill). With older workers projected to comprise nearly half of the UK workforce by 2030, understanding these differences isn't optional — it's essential.
2. The double-edged sword of workplace secrets Al digs into Harvard Business Review research on organizational secrecy. Keeping employees "in the know" can make them feel valued and trusted — but it also creates stress, isolation, and a heavy psychological burden. The key? Getting the balance right between transparency and discretion.
3. Apple faces lawsuit over employee privacy A lawsuit filed in California state court accuses Apple of monitoring employees' personal devices and iCloud accounts — even off the clock. For a company that has built its brand on privacy, the irony is hard to ignore. Leanne explores what this means for the blurred line between work and personal life.
🔥 Hot Take of the Week: Katie O'Malley on Leadership Training
Katie O'Malley, founder of (en)Courage Coaching, joins the show with a bold claim: traditional leadership training is fundamentally flawed. She highlights a staggering 12-year gap between when employees are promoted into leadership roles and when they actually receive formal training.
Her prescription?
- Train all employees as future leaders from day one — don't wait for the promotion.
- Focus on self-awareness, effective communication, and conflict resolution — the skills that actually matter.
- Recognize "soft skills" as critical competencies — not nice-to-haves, but essential for healthy, productive workplace cultures.
More from Katie O'Malley:
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kateomalley
- Website: encouragecoaching.org
💬 World-Famous Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Burnout and KPIs: A newly promoted Head of Sales is facing a KPI-driven culture causing team burnout. How do you balance results with wellbeing?
- Remote work boundaries: A senior account manager is struggling with blurred work-life boundaries. Where do you draw the line?
- Christmas party dilemma: A manager feels hurt after discovering team members plan to skip an expensive Christmas party for their own gathering. Is it personal — or just business?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
🎧 Next Episode Teaser
Join us Thursday for a conversation with mental health advocate Kody Green, who shares his experience living with schizophrenia and thriving with workplace support.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, we are. Merry Christmas to you all.
Leanne ElliottHappy December.
Al ElliottHappy December. Happy holidays if you're in North America. And welcome. Hello, especially to you if you're a brand new listener. If you care about the culture at your organization, you are in the right place. If you've listened before, welcome back. You know the score. Every Thursday we bring you a brand new interview with an expert guest who knows how to create great workplace cultures. But it's Tuesday today, so today we're bringing you your regular weekly fix of workplace news, spicy hot takes from our expert panel, and of course, our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYeah, if you do have a question about work, then I would love to help you with it. Uh, check out the show notes, you'll find out all the links you need to get in touch. Right now though, it is my favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup. Al, cue the jingle, and you can— can you put a little Christmas twist on it, please?
Al ElliottLet's find out if editing Al knows how to do that. Okay, Le, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottSo this week I saw a really interesting study into exactly this— what motivates older workers. And to give some context to this, because you might be thinking, why should we care? Well, in the UK right now, about 72% of people aged 50 to 64 are currently employed, and by 2030, people over 50 are expected to make up nearly 47% of the workforce. So yeah, actually We do need to pay attention to this. Nearly half of the labour force, that's huge. So understanding what motivates older workers is really important. So this study, published in Occupational Psychology Outlook, aimed to explore the motivations of older workers. They interviewed 48 of them, typically in professional roles like education, management, and healthcare. And the researchers used a method called template analysis, which basically means they look through the interviews and try and identify recurring patterns or themes in terms of what people said.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd from that, they identified 4 distinct types of motivation among proactive older workers. Would you like me to go through the 4, Al?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSee which one you are?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottFirst one, not that you're, not that you're over 50 yet.
Al ElliottNot that far away.
Leanne ElliottNot that far away, no. Um, first one, strategist. So these individuals focus on leaving a legacy and doing meaningful work. They're motivated by having autonomy and a sense of purpose. The second type are sandboxes. These workers love exploring new opportunities and trying out different things. For them, work is about curiosity and enjoyment rather than necessity. The third is tacticians, practical and goal-oriented. They are motivated by achieving financial security or maintaining structure in their routines. And finally, cooperators. Collaboration is what drives these workers. They enjoy mentoring and contributing to team success. So the research really did shed light on how workplaces can better support older employees, because by understanding the factors that drive their motivation, whether it's autonomy, learning, finance, financial stability, or community, employers can tailor roles and opportunities to meet their needs. And this is particularly crucial As we know, when half of the workforce will soon be over 50, we need to make sure our older workers are really a cornerstone of our organisational success.
Al ElliottAl thought. What was the, what was the one that you said there was 4 and there was one where you, you liked learning new things and doing new things? Because that was me.
Leanne ElliottThis is a sandboxer. These workers love exploring new opportunities and trying out different things, but then work is about curiosity and enjoyment rather than necessity.
Al ElliottYeah, that's definitely me. I think that I live for waking up and going, right, what problems can we solve today? I really enjoy that. So, and that's interesting because I don't think necessarily you would put— you would relate someone who's over the age of 50 with someone who liked seeing new things. But all the AI stuff at the moment, I'm fascinated by it. As I've talked before about AI agents or agentic AI, I think it's called. Fascinated by that. Crypto also really interested. So I enjoy finding new problems and finding solutions to them, or just learning new things.
Leanne ElliottIt's interesting, isn't it? I'm, I'm not— I've not looked at actually which one I might be, but maybe a strategist. I want to say the legacy side, but doing meaningful work. Definitely motivated by having autonomy, a sense of purpose. Possibly a sandboxer, but not to the same extent that you are. Um, certainly not financial security. Um, collaboration, Maybe. Yeah, I'm probably a strategist, I think.
Al ElliottI think you are. I think you are. And I think you're really good at taking big complex ideas and breaking them down. You're also phenomenal. If you— this pod would not run without Leanne. It wouldn't be edited without me, but Leanne basically does everything else from the show notes to guest bookings to ensuring that emails go out. Uh, so yeah, big, big up my wife. She's, uh, she's, she's incredible.
Leanne ElliottThank you. I am. Yeah, I'm an administrator basically.
Al ElliottUm, but I think, I think probably That, that might be diminishing your role somewhat. I'm not saying anything against administrators.
Leanne ElliottI'm not an executive assistant.
Al ElliottYou are not.
Leanne ElliottGo on. Um, no, what I really liked about it is I think it really challenged the assumption. As you say, you know, you don't often associate innovation with people, um, who are older, which is an incorrect assumption. We know what assumptions make. But I think it does show that rather than older employees slowing down, many are actively shaping their role to align with what matters most. I think we've seen that shift when we've spoken to people like Jeremy on the show not so long ago, our Gen X. Um, so yeah, I think— and meaningful work, you know, we tend to associate that with millennials and Gen Z, but we all want meaningful work. Um, it's just where it stands on our priority list. Um, of course there are limitations to the study I need to call out. The sample was pretty small. Participants were white British professionals, which means that the findings might not fully capture the experiences experiences of minority ethnic groups or manual workers, for example. But I think it's a really interesting starting point and gets the conversation going about older people in the workplace.
Al Elliott100%. If you're interested in this kind of thing, then one of the big proponents of older people in the workplace is Louise Hill, who's the CEO of GoHenry. She's on— we interviewed her a couple of days ago. She's on, uh, I think 19th of December, I think is episode 16-something. Uh, she'll be on, and we do talk to her about people who are in their 50s Upwards working. She's just like a huge, huge sort of like fan of that. And so it's interesting to hear her opinion.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I will, um, leave a link to that research in the show notes. But for now, Al, what have you seen?
Al ElliottShh, got a secret.
Leanne ElliottTell me.
Al ElliottWell, actually, I haven't got a secret, but this article I saw was all about work. Well, we have got a secret, but that about that thing, but we don't tell anyone about that, do we? So just keep that quiet. So I saw an article about work secrets today, and not just kind of like the spy James Bond stuff. Um, new James Bond. That's, that's that smart price, uh, James Bond. James Bond. New research reported in the HBR, that's the Harvard Business Review, um, it shows that keeping work secrets can stress out employees and make them feel isolated. Makes sense. But also it can make them feel special and give their work a little bit more meaning. Professor Michael Slepian, and he has, uh, 2 other co-researchers which I didn't write down their names, sorry guys, uh, but he said organizational secrets is a double-edged sword. While it can lead to socialization and stress, it can also enhance feelings of status and meaning. This interested me, this whole idea of status and meaning. Um, the, the survey goes on to say that essentially what we're talking about is that employees who feel most proud of knowing company secrets are actually the ones who are most stressed out in their personal lives. They really struggle to talk about the work with family and friends, which can often Cause tension at home. Now, there is one side of that. I mean, I get it, signing trade secrets documents is kind of exciting. But this study, which involved 12,000 workers— more than your study, Leanne, so I win— and it found that keeping work secrets makes people feel cut off from others and a little bit more stressed day to day. Of course, there is the idea of being trusted with company secrets makes employees feel very valued and important, and it can give their work a little bit more meaning. But it does seem that having supportive coworkers who also know the secrets makes a massive difference to stress levels. Now, what I'm interested about this— do you think, Leanne, that if I know— if I'm— I know a secret about work and then my colleague knows a secret but a different secret, do you think that would be the same? Do you think we'd still feel like we're sort of bonding, or do you have to know the same secret?
Leanne ElliottI think you need to know the same secret.
Al ElliottOh, that's a bit disappointing.
Leanne ElliottI don't— I don't know. I've not— I've not read the research on it, but I'd imagine that That it's that what's gonna ease the, the guilt and weight of that secret is gonna be having somebody that you can speak to openly about it. So if it's not the same secret, you can't do that. So it's still a secret.
Al ElliottThat makes sense. Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Now, this article goes on to say that the key here to getting this right is when managers explain why secrecy is needed, employees feel much better about keeping secrets. That sounds a little bit like it could be encompassed by the word reason, which is one of the RX7s. We've talked about this before. RX7, 7 things, foundations of a great workplace culture all begin with R. One of the most important things in there is reason. Anyway, employees who took pride in the secret work do feel higher status at work, but is this necessarily a good thing? Could this lead to kind of an us and them situation? They're sort of like, I'm sorry, Terry, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you sort of thing. And we also all know those managers already think they're super important. And this may well push them over the edge and make them unbearable to work with. Apparently, the most frustrating thing for employees who keep secrets is not being able to talk about their work achievements with others, which does make sense. I also wonder very much, like the whole spy thing we had, um, we had the neuroscientist Hillary Scarlett, I want to say, uh, she worked with the basically Secret Service, the spy headquarters in the UK. I'd be interested to hear whether she thought, uh, what she thought about this study. Um, as an aside, there is a great story about an ex-Coca-Cola Coca-Cola employee who approached Pepsi back in the '80s or '90s, I think, with the secret recipe for Coke. And then Pepsi immediately contacted Coca-Cola, told them about this person. This person was arrested. I'm guessing they had them killed or drowned in a vat of Coca-Cola. I've seen what it does to teeth and coins overnight, so it's not really good to be— a good way to die. And didn't take those secrets. So maybe it's kind of like this unwritten code. When you have your own secrets, more— you're more likely to act with integrity if someone tries to disclose someone else's secret to you. The sad news, unfortunately, for one of the biggest secrets in the world, which is Colonel Sanders' secret, which is the secret blend of 11 herbs and spices in the KFC coating, is widely available on the internet. So that's no longer a secret.
Leanne ElliottI think there was one Chick-fil-A sauce as well, was a recent one that was leaked.
Al ElliottAnd then McDonald's, um, Big Mac sauce. Leanne has reverse engineered that. How'd you make that, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottUh, mayonnaise, Yeah, and ketchup and Dijon mustard.
Al ElliottSo there you go, Leanne. What do you think of that?
Leanne ElliottPsychology of Secrets is really interesting. There's actually a book that's just behind you, The Psychology of Secrets by Andrew Gold, who I really want to get on the show. Andrew, if you're listening, come on, we'll chat. It'll be great. Really interesting research that, yeah, that isn't overall negative. Having secrets isn't really good for us. It's not good for mental health. It's not good for our place in the community. It's not good for our work. And there's lots of reasons where secrets aren't a great thing to have. Equally, I think when you share a secret with somebody, it can, you know, create that camaraderie. But I would argue, if somebody else knows about the secret, is it really a secret?
Al ElliottThat's a good point. When does a secret become— what would be the next step down from secret?
Leanne ElliottSecret-ish.
Al ElliottSecret-ish. Yes, exactly. I'll tell you what's not a secret. Thanks to you lovely listeners, we are number 2 in the Spotify business charts.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah, thank you for that.
Al ElliottYeah, well done. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Okay, Leah. What else have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottUm, I have seen an employee lawsuit that I thought was quite interesting. It accuses Apple of spying on its workers.
Al ElliottNow, I heard— I did read a bit about this. Yeah, you heard about this one?
Leanne ElliottSo if you haven't heard about it, it's making headlines because it accuses a company, as I said, of spying on employees even when they're off the clock and using their own personal devices. So the suit was filed by Amar Bhakta, an Apple employee, 2020, and it raises some serious questions about privacy in the workplace, especially at a company— did you just yawn?
Al ElliottI'm sorry, my ears are still blocked. I'm trying to unblock them by yawning. I wasn't yawning at you. Carry on, carry on.
Leanne ElliottIs now the time for that?
Al ElliottI was trying. You were talking—
Leanne ElliottShould I start again?
Al ElliottNo, you were talking about Amar Bhakta. We got this. 2020, and, and basically he's worried about the privacy in the workplace.
Leanne ElliottYes, he is. And it does raise some questions, as I said, especially for a company like Apple. It does, you know, it's known for protecting the privacy of its customers, right? For example, the podcast Now, any analytics from Apple are basically useless because of all the privacy. Shift in privacy rules dropped podcasting listening numbers that we can see by about 25% across all podcasts. Thanks, Apple.
Al ElliottSo famously—
Leanne Elliottcheers, mate— famously private. So back to this case filed in California state court claims that Apple's employment policies blur the boundaries between work and personal life in a way that's intrusive. So according to the lawsuit, Apple employees are required to use Apple-made devices for work. Makes sense. But since these devices often belong to the employees themselves, they end up having to use their own personal iCloud accounts, which Apple can monitor and allegedly Allegedly, this surveillance includes access to emails, photos, notes, and even real-time location data. The suit goes so far as to describe working for Apple as being trapped in a prison yard where employees are constantly watched. Bactor also claims that Apple's policies harmed his career prospects by limiting his ability to speak publicly about digital advertising and forcing him to remove details about his job from LinkedIn. Again, what'd I say? Secrets, not good. This isn't the first time though that Apple's privacy practices for employees have come under fire. Former employees have previously raised concerns about the company's access to personal data. The lawsuit adds new details highlighting policies that require employees to use work-owned iCloud accounts but reportedly discourage creating separate work-only accounts, which does leave little room for employees to separate their personal and professional lives. So this lawsuit has been filed under California's Private Attorneys General Act, which allows employees to sue on behalf of the state for labor rights violations. If Apple is found liable, the company could face significant penalties for each violation multiplied by the number of employees impacted.
Al ElliottOh yeah, that's a big number.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so it is, it is, it is a massive lawsuit if this, if this, these allegations do prove to be true. And as I said, you know, a little bit of dissonance between what Apple has been famously known for in terms of privacy when protecting its customers. Al's thoughts?
Al ElliottRight, I don't really get this whole privacy thing. And I know I'm a bit weird when it comes to that, but number one is I want Google to track me looking at everything on the internet, because then when I go to my Google News feed, I see stuff that's interesting to me. I want to see relevant adverts. I don't want to see an advert for a space hopper because I don't like space. That's a weird— why did you choose space hoppers, Al? Hmm, Freudian. But, but you— I want to see relevant adverts. Um, you know, that's why I don't mind them reading Yeah. And I just think, if you want to be private, what are you doing? You want to be private? Now I know that I'm— I look forward to your letters. I know that people are going to be like, whoa, no, I want the privacy, but I don't get it. So for me, I'm like, well, why don't you just go and get another phone and use that at home? I've heard of people who have 3 or 4 old iPhones, one of which they used to give to their kids so they can play around on games and take pictures, whatever. One of which they have which has just got their photo on it, their photos on it. so they can take pictures of the kids. Mind you, having said that, we don't have kids, so maybe that could be a privacy issue. But either way, I— maybe this is just a very middle-class white, um, solution to it of saying, hey, why don't you just buy another phone? But I can't help but think, you know, maybe that is the solution. You have a work phone and then you have a personal phone.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think this is the problem with the— and why the lawsuit has come up, is that there isn't that segregation with work and life, um, it seems. Um, important to note that Apple hasn't commented on the lawsuit yet, um, so we can't bring you their perspective. One thing I did see, and I think the thing is, is that we— I think we normalize changes in general privacy, and I think the internet has really disrupted that in terms of— it used to be very easy to be private, and now it's quite difficult, to the point where if you don't have an online presence at all, it's almost more suspicious than having a bit of a, you know, a, a not very detailed online presence. But I was watching an old film, an old film the other day from the noughties, Charlie's Angels, you know, with Cameron Diaz and all that.
Al ElliottUm, I remember that film and I hadn't very well.
Leanne ElliottI hadn't. Yeah, it was a good film and different reasons we enjoyed it. Um, but what I, I'd forgotten the story, the kind of storyline, and they were basically fighting the baddie who was going to put a tracking device in everybody's mobile phone so that they could track where a human, any human was on the planet at any one time. And I was like, huh.
Al ElliottUm, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, I think technology has maybe, maybe relaxed us, maybe normalized some of these tracking behaviors. I can understand why people want to be, want to be private. You're a marketer, so I understand why you don't.
Al ElliottSo after this very short break, we'll be back with this week's hot take. Leanne, who have we got in this week?
Leanne ElliottThis week we are joined by Katie O'Malley, um, a very interesting leadership coach with a very hot take on leadership. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their band. Oh, that's brilliant.
Leanne Elliotttheir work.
Al ElliottAnd we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Leanne ElliottKeep that in. Welcome back. As regular listeners will now know, every week we ask a workplace expert for their hot take on the world of work. We want bold insights, surprising predictions, unpopular opinions. We want to know what is going on in the world of work, what is broken, And what in goodness knows is coming next. This week, our hot take comes from Katie O'Malley. Katie is an executive coach and leadership educator with over 20 years of experience across the nonprofit, corporate, and education sectors. She is also the founder of Encourage Coaching, where she helps individuals and organizations build authentic career paths and courageous workplace cultures. Her work has been featured in Fast Company and—
Al ElliottFancy.
Leanne ElliottI know. And Thrive Global. And she brings a unique perspective unique blend of counseling, leadership education, and organizational development to everything she does. Katie's hot take: leadership training is broken.
Al ElliottSo my name is Katie O'Malley. I am the founder and principal coach of Encourage Coaching. I have my master's degree in counseling, so I'm trained as a therapist, um, and really started my company to help people at the intersection of mental health and work. My hot take for the workplace And so, so often I get brought in to work either with a leader, a group of leaders, or with a whole organization and culture. And what they want from me are essentially the skills to be a therapist to their employees. And I'm like, well, that's not what I do.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottNot only is that unethical and irresponsible, but that's not what your job is. Your job is an engineer, or your job is a doctor, or your job is whatever it happens to be, right? It is not to be a therapist for your employees. But what we can do is ensure that the way that you interact with your people, with your teams, with your colleagues during the day isn't causing them to close their laptop early.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottwalk out of the building and literally run to therapy because of what happened to them in work during that day. And so, it's a practice in the field of counseling that we call nonmaleficence. So, this idea of do no harm, essentially, which is different than trying to do good. And so, I really work with my clients one-on-one to find workplaces that at The worst are going to have a net-neutral impact on their well-being, but at best are elevating that. And when I go into teams or organizations, it's all about training on how do we not cause harm instead of trying to do good. Because so many times, while the intent may be good, the impact often results in more negativity than was the originally intended impact. But oftentimes, These things result in what we call microaggressions. And over time, those microaggressions that may just feel like a little mosquito bite at first, when you're covered with mosquito bites, it becomes much more difficult to really do your job well because your stress response is through the roof. And examples of microaggressions often relate to somebody's something that's core to a person's identity, which could be any number of social identities related to race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status. So, microaggressions are one of the things that are pretty concrete and tangible. The other one that I'd like to talk about a lot is this feeling of psychological safety. And psychological safety Super buzzy, right? Gets thrown around a lot in the milieu, whether pop psychology or the psychological research in general. But what we know is that it was discerned and discovered by Dr. Amy Edmondson in 1999. She is a professor at Harvard. And while it has and can have all of these bells and whistles, right, at its core, psychological safety is simply having the absence of interpersonal fear when you walk into a space with others. And so, my question often is for leaders, are your employees scared of you? Is there something you've done that causes a stress response in them? And oftentimes, the leaders will say, of course not. There's nothing I do that has That has scared a member of my team or that has scared my employee? And then I ask them about consistency. Do you show up consistently in your behaviors every day so that when someone walks through your door, they know the Katie or the Leanne that they're going to get? Or when people come into your office, do they not know, am I going to get super calm, even Katie, or am I going to get really volatile Katie? And so much of interpersonal fear comes from that lack of consistency in how we show up for each other. And so, the other thing that I ask folks to really practice and engage with is how can I show up consistently for my team every day? And that's not just being on time and being in the office, but consistently through their behaviors. And then, when I frame it that way, folks are like, oh yes, I can see why someone might be a little trepidatious, scared, worried to come meet with me. We need to be training our leaders before they are promoted to positions of leadership. And so, the research shows that the average age someone gets promoted to a role where they're leading others is 30, and the average age they receive any formal leadership development training or education is 42. And so, there's a 12-year gap where people are unintentionally causing harm. I believe leaders are trying to show up and do the very best that they can. They just haven't been set up for success. So, the very first thing that I would encourage employers to do is the minute that you hire a new employee, Whether they are working in the mailroom, whether they are working as an administrative assistant, whether they are working, you know, as a broker client services manager, it doesn't matter. Treat them as though they are going to be a leader within your organization and start training them on the people call them soft skills. I disagree with that. They are really challenging, hard, difficult. skills around effective communication, navigating conflict, and understanding it as a tool for creativity and innovation instead of resentment and animosity, how to really delegate in a way that allows other folks to develop. But most importantly, really focuses in on self-awareness because we cannot lead others until we can effectively lead ourselves and control our own behaviors. So that would be, that would be the first thing. Train your leader. Train everyone as a leader. Just assume they're all going to be leaders as they walk through your door. And you know what? You're going to retain them for much longer simply because you made that investment.
Leanne ElliottI think the one thing that I think Katie and I agree on a lot, actually, but the one thing we definitely agree on is if you do one thing, train your managers. And it's a, it's a statistic I've heard before, but one that never fails to shock me, that there's a 12-year gap between people being promoted to a formal leadership role and then receiving any kind of training at all. That's more than a decade of damage that a leader could be doing to their employees. And what I love about Katie's perspective as well is because she comes from this psycho— this counseling background, she, she understands the danger of that. She understands the impact of that. And it's— I don't, I don't— I think I wonder if sometimes people think I'm being dramatic when I say managers can do far more harm than a counselor could, a therapist could, a partner could, because of the amount of time and the stakes involved in terms of that relationship, the power dynamic involved in that relationship. Um, so I think it really does show that, you know, a lot of what we're seeing— burnout, um, you know, quiet quitting, the Great Resignation— I think it really is just this massive misalignment of the capability of managers and how they treat their teams, um, and really how management overall shapes organizational culture. It's, it's such a big issue, and I don't understand why we're not all freaking out about it yet.
Al ElliottYeah, I think the other thing which is really, really important to note here is consistency. We've had several guests on here talking about the fact that an inconsistent— and I— one strong commentator is Rob Kalvarovsky. Um, anyone who is inconsistent as a manager, just— it's, it's almost the worst thing you can do. Because if one day you're happy and then you come the next day, you're angry. If one day someone does something and they get this particular repercussion somewhere, then, then someone else does something and they don't, you just don't know where you stand with it. So I think that being able to be consistent does feel like it's, it's probably a key leadership trait. Now, I don't know whether it's necessarily something you'd learn or something you feel like you might have inherently. I don't know. But I think consistency is one of the one of the massively overlooked things in management?
Leanne ElliottI think it's a bit of both. It's emotional regulation essentially, isn't it? If you're, you know, if you're stressed or you're feeling under pressure, that you have ways of dealing with that that aren't explosive or aren't, you know, aren't in the wrong context. John, my leadership mentor, that was his number one lesson for me, hide the wires. And that was basically that, be consistent, regulate your emotions, understand the people that you can offload to and the people that need you to be that stable presence. And I think finally, what I loved about what Katie said, and I think it's such a brilliant idea, year, train every employee from day one as if they're going to be a future leader. And what I love about that is you're future-proofing your organization and the well-being of your people and productivity and performance and all of that stuff. But it's not going to be wasted. It's not going to be training that anyone's ever going to do and go, well, that was a waste of time, because they're going to apply that to their relationships in the workplace. They're going to apply that to relationships at home with their friends, with their partner. I just think I would love to hear from any organization if If you do have this policy in your organisation, please get in touch. I would love to interview for the show because I'd love to know what the actual real organisational life impact of a policy like that is. And I, I'd imagine it's incredible.
Al ElliottYeah, fabulous hot take. I'm loving these hot takes. I remember we used to swap the segment around. You have different things on. This is my favourite by far. I hope this stays, uh, for a long time. I'm really, really enjoying it. Okay, I think it's time to go to my favourite time of the It's time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Just in case you haven't been listening properly or you haven't worked out yet, Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist. We discovered last week that anyone can call themselves a psychologist, but an occupational psychologist is a protected term. Very few people become chartered occupational psychologists. That's like the fanciest of the fanciest of the fancy. That's what it is. So Leanne has all this experience, all these amazing skills, And it's her job to give our lovely listeners advice on work-related problems. So should we go for the first problem, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottI've recently been promoted to Head of Sales and now manage a team of 12. Well done. The team's numbers are good, but I'm getting a bit uncomfortable with the relentless focus of KPIs. Every Monday morning, everyone's numbers are displayed on screens around the office. Brutal. From cold calls made to deals closed, everything is tracked, ranked, and publicly shared. The current leadership team lives by the mantra, what gets measured gets managed. Very 1980s Tom Peters, that. But I'm seeing concerning signs in my team. Even though we're hitting our numbers, the constant pressure feels unsustainable. I'm watching people burn out in real time, and when I raise these concerns, I'm told this system is what made us us. Should I challenge the current way of working? Will people even care if I bring up burnout? Lee, what would you do in this situation? In fact, no, what would— not necessarily what would you do, what would be your advice? for this person writing in.
Leanne ElliottFundamentally, you are operating in what is known as a results culture where performance is prioritized and it's all about a fast pace. Very— and we see this very much in sales organizations, recruitment organizations, very target-driven organizations. And the message from leadership is very much, we are about results, we are about hustle, that's how we do it. It's fast, it burns through talent, and that's okay because we recruit Constantly, we have a pipeline coming in again. Typically see that with recruitment consultancies. It is the way it is, and that's coming from the top. Implementing any kind of change in your business is going to be impossible without the buy-in from senior leaders. So you are not going to single-handedly be able to overhaul this culture if you can't get the buy-in of the leadership team. Then it ain't gonna work. That said, there are things that you can do to protect your team and manage your. Um, your little climate within your team climate within the, the broader culture, really your team culture within the broader culture. And I think the thing to do with that is, first of all, and I know I repeat myself a lot, but have a conversation with your team. Are they burning out? Are they struggling? Are there other things? It might not be the culture, it might be clunky processes that are adding to their frustrations and workload. We don't want to make any assumptions. So I think it'd be a really nice thing in your one-to-ones to kind of say, look, how are you doing?
Al ElliottI—
Leanne Elliottand the reason I ask is I've noticed that the constant focus on performance, on targets, the way the office is set up, can be quite overwhelming. It's very overstimulating. Sometimes I find that that can add to my stress levels. How are you finding it? And just get a sense of how your team are, where they are, how stressed they are. It might be that half your team thrive in that environment. It might be that there are some people struggling. And once you know that, you can start to maybe look at some interventions you could do on a team level to help with that. And really, that's going to be about making sure the relationships within the team are great, making sure you don't have any toxic behaviors, any sharking-type behaviors. Yes, we need to hit our targets, and it sounds like you are, but we can do that together as a collective and make sure every individual also has the opportunity to shine. Make sure that any toxic behaviors like that are not tolerated in your team. And I think from the sounds of it, you have the power to do that because you're But also in an organisation that operates in a way that is so target-driven, if you have these behaviours that breed over time, that's gonna inhibit performance. And that's your argument to go to leadership in terms of why you performance manage that situation, 'cause ultimately it's gonna impact performance. So it's making sure things like toxic behaviours are eliminated, not tolerated, making sure you're setting clear boundaries for your staff. Don't text them and email them after hours, or indeed agree the times that you'll text and email, demand their attention. And then look at other activities that could help them. manage stress levels. If you have an EAP program within your organization, have a look at that, the types of resources that are available, whether it be some counseling sessions, some coaching sessions, whether it be physical activities. There's lots of different things you can do to help people with their individual levels of resilience. But I think ultimately, at this point, it doesn't sound as though you're going to be able to overhaul the organizational culture. What you might be able to do is if you do some of these things and your performance as a team increases, and that's likely because we know there's a correlation between positive wellbeing, positive engagement, and work performance, then you might get the attention of your leadership team then. And the, the perfect scenario with that is you're going to have then the data to provide them in terms of what you did, the changes you've made in the name of positive culture and wellbeing, and the positive impact that had on performance. At that point, you might be able to bring the leadership team around to your way of thinking. But until then, it sounds like you might be on your own on this one.
Al ElliottI think that's really cleverly, um, to, to, to do a little micro experiment, get the data, and then go and prove it. Because it— I think you're right, you're in a sales-driven environment. Key points you made there which I think are really good is number one is that potentially a lot of people there enjoy that. You know, if you, if you go to the people working in the city, in New York City, in London City, in finance and stuff, They thrive on that for a short period of time, and then they, then they tend to burn out. So there's that. So it might be that you, you are worried about this, but other people aren't. So definitely ask them. And, and as I said, I think this is the environment. You can't really do much to change it. So just find ways in which you can actually thrive within that environment. And, you know, if you're good at sales, then you're going to go to another place and it's probably going to be exactly the same. That's the whole point. Whole Yeah. point of sales departments. I've done sales. We used to write all that— write our deals up on the board. This is before we had screens. We used to have a big whiteboard, right, my board, so everyone could see what you're up to. So, but then one thing which did happen in this company was on a Friday, usually there was 2 people who did their target by Thursday afternoon. And on a Friday, often what would happen is they would ring around, get deals, and give it to the people like me who were struggling a little bit. We'd get a couple of them, and then, then Monday, first 2 we got Monday morning, we'd give them back to And and that was kind of like a nice thing, and it could be that that's sort of the way that you want your place to work. But yeah, I think what Leanne says there: we're not going for systemic change necessarily here. We're just going to like right. These are the parameters. Let's see how we can work within that. Excellent, Leanne. I love it. Okay, here's another question. I this person's written in said I work remotely as a senior account manager, and we first transitioned to hybrid working two years ago. I was over the moon. It gave me the chance to move close to my family while keeping. Keeping the job I love. At first, everything felt like it clicked— better flexibility, more time for personal priorities, and fewer stressful commutes. But over time, I found myself struggling with work-life balance. It's hard to fully switch off when your house doubles as your office. That's a really good point. Our house doubles as a studio, an office, and also a house for 2 dogs. I feel like I'm constantly on, answering emails late into the evening or feeling the pressure to be available at all hours. My boundaries between work and personal time have started to blur, and it's left me feeling drained and less motivated. Motivated, motivated. I love the flexibility remote work gives me, but I'm wondering how to set clearer boundaries and find a better balance. Lee, what are your thoughts on this?
Leanne ElliottYeah, very common problem. And I think we actually— I think, was it last Tuesday we talked about the latest research is out on hybrid and remote work? And that is a recognised problem with remote working and working from home, is that those boundaries do start to blur, and we have to be really strict about them. The first thing I would, I would do some reflection on is where is this pressure coming from? Is it coming from you to answer emails at all times? Is it coming from your manager to answer all emails at all times? Could it be potentially a combination of both? And really pinpoint where that pressure is coming from, because once you do, you can then really look at that through a lens of setting some expectations. So what are the expectations of me in terms of my work? When, how, you know, how responsive am I expected to be? How accessible do I need to be? Um, for my manager, for my team, for my clients. And just then get yourself some, just some basic rules and, and realistic expectations. 9 times out of 10, managers don't expect you to be around late in the evening, but they might also appreciate that that might be when you decide to answer your emails. Because a great thing about working from home is it allows that flexibility. flexibility. So I know lots of people who will, you know, finish work at 3 o'clock, go and pick up their kids, um, do the whole, you know, bedtime, dinner, bedtime routine, pick up their laptop again at 8 o'clock, answer emails until 10, and then that suits them perfectly. So I think it's, it's first of all understanding the actual situation that you have, and then it's really just looking at how do you set some very clear boundaries. And I mean like Be strict. And they can be really simple things. One thing that works really well for us and has done, because we've worked remotely since 2013, well before the pandemic, and one thing that worked really well for us was to have a separate space for the office. And I know that's luxury, and believe me, when we first started doing it, we didn't have a separate room we could use as an office. But what we do is we get one of those screens that would then like hide the, hide the desk that we worked at, um, in the evening to just— you don't have that visual trigger. of it. Another thing we've done that we've talked about before is in terms of talking about work, particularly if you work at home with somebody else, whether that's the same job or otherwise, trying to set some, you know, some boundaries that you agree on in terms of when do we talk about work, how long can that conversation go on for, can I check in with you first and just see if you're happy for me to have this conversation, that you have the energy for it. And it can seem over-formal, And yes, it needs to be over-formal, because until that boundary becomes a habit, and we know that that can take, what, 3 months typically, as the research shows us, to form that more concrete habit that's gonna stick, it needs to be that formal, it needs to be that forced. There's lots of other things that you can do. I think one thing that a lot of us do miss about our commute is actually having that time to transition from work to life. It was a very literal transition, and I think we're missing that now. So, there's other ways you can do it. I've heard of people who will go for a 20-minute walk, walk afterwards, or that's when they'll walk the dog, or that's when they'll go to the gym. Other ones I've heard of is that's when people will book in that coaching session to help them decompress from the day, or that's when they'll finish their day with 45 minutes of journaling to help with that transition. So, something like that can be really helpful. There's loads of different things, and the minute you start Googling up this, you're going to find loads of different suggestions, but they're only going to work if you first understand the expectations that are on you in terms of the expectations of yourself and the expectation of your employer. Because until you're clear on that, then any boundary setting is just gonna be kind of guesswork, probably won't stick, and probably won't work out.
Al ElliottExcellent advice. I read, um, I read of someone who basically went out their back door and came in their front door, um, at the beginning of work and did the reverse, uh, as like kind of a way of switching off. Um, if you've got kids and it's like, it's difficult to do that, then you know, try and take the kids to the park or something, or even down to the shop and get an ice cream. I don't know what we'd— I'd have kids, I don't know what you do with kids, uh, but that sort of thing. Um, another thing which I used to have and I want to go back to— this is the— we can have a little chat about this off air, but I want to go back to is my core 4, um, in that I used to have 4 hours a day, uh, it's usually in the morning, that was that you just couldn't talk to me. Like, you literally, you're not allowed to. And if there's a problem, I mean, if the house is on fire, fair enough, but otherwise Leave it till I finish my core 4. Um, and that was something which I really helped because I got so much done in those 4 hours that I felt that even if I— even if it was more difficult to get the rest of the work done during the day because it was like, I don't know, there was other distractions, at least I got a decent amount of work done. And, and that was sort of psychologically really good. Um, there's lots and lots of stuff. There's loads of research on this. Obviously, after we've spent so much time in the pandemic at home, then loads and loads of blog articles about how— about all of this work-life balance. Uh, but if you are still struggling with you want perhaps to have a chat with Leanne, then, um, Leanne's email's in the show notes. Drop her an email and she'll talk to you. Okay, Leanne, question number 3. This is a business owner who writes, and they say, the year at my company has been tough but profitable, so I wanted to really treat the team. It sounds really nice. I've booked an amazing venue for our Christmas party, arranged live entertainment, and even organised luxury transport home.
Leanne ElliottFancy.
Al ElliottThe works. It's costing around £300 This is a British person. Hello, Brit. £300 per head, but I felt the team deserved it. Yesterday I accidentally overheard 2 team members discussing plans to leave the official party at 10 PM and head to a local bar where apparently most of the team is planning to continue the night without the management team. I later discovered they've got a WhatsApp group specifically for this. Oh, that's the worst when you find out you're not in a WhatsApp group, isn't it? I later discovered they've got a WhatsApp group specifically for this after-party that excludes all the senior leadership team. I know I shouldn't be hurt. I'm their boss, not their friend. This is good. This is good. But I can't help feeling a bit gutted. We've always had a pretty relaxed culture, and I thought we had good relationships across all levels. Should I accept this as normal and let them have their space? Part of me wants to cancel the expensive venue and just give everyone a bonus, but that's probably me just being a bit petty.
Leanne ElliottLee. You're not their friend. You are their boss. You are taking it personally, and there's really no need.
Al ElliottThere you go. Thanks for writing in. Well, make this person feel a little bit better.
Leanne ElliottWhat's making you think you don't have good relationships across levels? They're talking about an afterparty. They're not talking about dodging the event altogether. Also, I personally have always felt and found that having some kind of slight separation between leadership teams and employees on a social level is quite good. Because the odd time I have engaged beyond kind of like, you know, I've gone to the after-party, I've spent my night with a drunken employee or 5 telling me about how much they, they dislike such and such from another department, or how if they could change one thing, it would be this, or—
Al ElliottThey don't, they don't— listeners don't know. There's only gonna be one listener listening to this. Hello, Alec.
Leanne ElliottYeah, or indeed, they'd be telling me about how much they wish they worked on my contract, or they'd tell me about, you know, problems they're having with their boyfriend. And I understand because we'd built this coaching-type relationship where I'd help them work through challenges to come to a solution. But ultimately, that's not how I wanna spend my Christmas party. So, I got to the point where I was like, I'm gonna start to build in a separation. I do know other managers, hi, Alec, who have been able to kind of walk this line really beautifully and still engage very much in the social side.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottand maintain that, um, that professional relationship, um, with people and work from it, especially from a performance perspective as well. So it's, it's really tricky, and I think you need to figure out which one you are. And I think, I'll be honest, I think it's probably the 1 to 2% of leaders that can actually manage to walk that line perfectly. I think more than likely you need to have a slight separation, but that doesn't mean you can't have a great fabulous time until 10. Maybe the duo were that good that they'll push the after-party until 11. Fabulous. It's, it's wonderful that people want to go to your event. Why not have an after-party for the senior leadership team?
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd that's not about us and them. That's just about, we can talk about things that we could never talk about in front of them, um, while they talk about things that they'd never talk about in front of you. You're still building relationships, you're still building camaraderie, you're having that whole event together in the beginning anyway to celebrate as an organization and celebrate each other. I think it's the best of both worlds, isn't it? You have that group thing, together, and then you separate into your groups where you might be able to have that drunken chat in a more appropriate, more appropriate context. Your final thing about maybe canceling it and just giving everyone a bonus— not at this point, you set some expectations— but next year, if this happens, it might be worth doing some investigation of how people would want you to spend that extra money. It might be that actually this time of year, a bonus of even £300 is going to make a massive difference to somebody's Christmas and New Year. So it might just be worth canvassing that opinion generally over the year to see how people might want Um, bonuses to be allocated or indeed social events to be organized. I'd imagine it's going to be a combination of the two, but it's always worth asking. Um, so I think, yeah, don't get offended. Celebrate that everyone— enjoy the fact that everyone has worked hard for this year. It's been really tough. They've come through, they've delivered. They're all going to come to your party and have a fabulous time. You're going to go off with your leadership team afterwards. They're going to go off and have another, you know, fabulous time where they can get up to all sorts and you don't have to worry about seeing on Instagram the next day.
Al ElliottUm, and it'll I think that's really good advice. And I think the, um, I think what you've said there, it makes— it's underlined this thought I was reading when I was reading this, is that be careful what you wish for. Uh, you know, if you get— if, if you say, right, well, they're all going to hang around till 2 o'clock in the morning, then you're like, well, they're going to do potentially the things that they wanted to do after 10 at your party. And we won't go into what those things might be, but they do range from illegal to immoral to probably just a bit silly.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, so you— the good news is that you are having all the good but none of the bad, because then at 10 o'clock they're all going to drift off. And as Leanne said, you might find that they hang around till 11. Take that as a massive win that you've put on such a good, such a good event. But don't try and do that. Just do your best to make sure they're happy. This event is about them. It's about saying thank you to them. It's not about you. And that's such a difficult thing when you're an entrepreneur. Generally, I've always said entrepreneurs are broken. So if you've started, if you started a business, Like, there's probably a good chance, and I've done this, probably a good chance that you started because, because you wanted to have friends, or because you had an idea and you wanted to coalesce around a particular idea and everyone got really excited about it. Unfortunately, that's, that's fine when you're like 3 or 4 people, but when you're like— I think you said you were 12 now— that 12th or 13th person is the pivot. That's when it changes, and it's not about you. So Leanne's advice is amazing. I love it. And also, Leanne's been there and done that, and, um, I think what she says there about not being cornered by Trevor from accounts talking about Betty from— I don't know where Betty works, but that's probably something.
Leanne ElliottFinance.
Al ElliottFinance. You're probably— well, yeah, you're probably going to be, uh, probably going to be a nice swerve.
Leanne ElliottMy, my most favorite Christmas do is a leadership, and this isn't meant as a bar humbug, but as you jump in as a national leader, different teams, different Christmas dos, which do you pick? Which one you go to? Do you have to go to all 3? How do you deal with it in the moment? It so happened that every region I was managing had Christmas do when I'd already planned to be in another region. And that happened completely accidentally, that I was not going to be in any of the right regions for the Christmas do. So I spoke to my manager, he's like, just take yourself out for a nice lunch. So I did. I went to Rick Stein's, um, restaurant in Cornwall, had a big bowl of moules frites, a glass of wine, and it was fabulous. Um, it was the best Christmas do I've ever had.
Al ElliottDo the do, do the do for your people, and then Go and get yourself a nice big bowl of mussels. Yeah. Crisp white wine, maybe something from Alsace, perhaps a Pinot Gris.
Leanne ElliottAnd pasta is beautiful. Highly recommend Rick's Restaurant.
Al ElliottYeah. Good luck getting in before Christmas though. Okay, that's brilliant, Leanne. I'm loving these. I love these. These are one of my highlights.
Leanne ElliottWe love that our listeners are in peril and trouble. We love that you're having a really bad time with it.
Al ElliottI love that we're benefiting off your, uh, of your bad fortune. Yes. Now, if you've got a question that you'd like me to— if that hasn't If you've got a question you'd like me to put to Leanne, then check the show notes for more details. We are back next Tuesday with another edition of This Week in Work, and of course, this and every Thursday we bring you a great interview with cool guests who have real stories about building amazing workplace cultures.
Leanne ElliottYeah, this week we've got a really special episode for you. We are continuing to shine a light on mental illness in the workplace following a call to action from Dr. Sarah Hughes, who is the CEO of Mind. So our guest is the incredible Codie Green, a mental mental health advocate with almost 2 million followers on socials. He's genuinely the talk of the town, with both USA Today and even Saturday Night Live referencing his amazing dog Luna, who has more than 50 million views so far. Cody shares his experiences of living with schizophrenia and how, with the right support, people with this diagnosis can thrive in the workplace. Believe me, You do not want to miss this episode.
Al ElliottSuch a great episode. He's such a cool guy. He's funny. He's, uh, he's honest. It's just one you definitely do not want to miss. Talking of miss, we're gonna miss you guys because we're not gonna see you for 2 days. So, uh, bye for now, I suppose.
Leanne ElliottI'll be thinking of you.
Al ElliottWeirdo.
Leanne ElliottSubscribe.
Al ElliottSubscribe. Yeah, forgot about that bit. Do the subscription thing and the sharing thing. You know what, you know what to do. Bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottBye. The third is tattatitions, tattatitions.
Al ElliottThe third is what?
Leanne ElliottTactic— tacticians.
Al ElliottLet's do that again. Yeah, that's 100% me. I'm definitely not a collaborator based on the fact that we— how we work together. Um, actually, we work really well together.
Leanne ElliottArse.
Al ElliottI've got to do that again. And I kind of feel like we're almost like on that, is that back— you know what, I don't know where any of this is going.
Leanne ElliottI'm excited to find out if you'll get there.
Al ElliottMe too, me too.