Episode 163 · 16 January 2025 · 1:03:17
Dr Ryan Martin, AKA The Anger Professor, Unfiltered Full Interview
Dr Ryan Martin, AKA The Anger Professor, Unfiltered Full Interview
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What anger really is (and isn't)
Anger vs. aggression — why the distinction matters
Are some people just angrier than others?
Gender differences in anger (and what surprises people)
Debunking the catharsis myth
Is anger addictive?
The 10 strategies for dealing with angry people
The strategy Ryan finds most difficult
Can anger ever be useful at work?
How Ryan became The Anger Professor on TikTok
Young Ryan was 'a very bad student'
The question everyone should ask about anger
Show notes
The Anger Professor Unfiltered: Dr. Ryan Martin on Why We're All So Angry
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) close out their Unfiltered Series with a raw, unedited conversation with Dr. Ryan Martin — psychologist, Dean at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, and the internet's favourite "Anger Professor." They unpack what anger actually is, why punching pillows makes it worse, and how leaders can de-escalate tense situations without losing their cool. Plus, why anger might be contagious — and when it's actually useful.
🔥 The Unfiltered Finale
This episode marks the end of the Unfiltered Series — six raw, unedited conversations with some of the most thought-provoking guests the show has ever hosted. Previous guests include Rory Sutherland, Professor John Amaechi, Professor Sir Cary Cooper, Nora Burns, and Bruce Daisley. If you missed any, they're all in your podcast feed.
To close the series, Dr. Ryan Martin — known to millions as The Anger Professor — joins Al and Leanne for a deep dive into the emotion we're all grappling with right now.
🧠 What You'll Learn
Anger is not aggression. Anger is an emotion — a response to being wronged, experiencing injustice, or facing goal-blocking. Aggression is a behaviour that sometimes follows anger. Confusing the two leads us to suppress healthy emotions and excuse unhealthy behaviours.
The catharsis myth is real — and wrong. Punching pillows, smashing plates, or screaming into the void doesn't release anger. Research shows it actually makes things worse by reinforcing the connection between anger and aggression.
Anger is contagious. We learn how to be angry from the people around us — parents, peers, and now, the algorithm. Modelling calm behaviour is one of the most powerful tools leaders have.
Some anger is useful. Anger signals that something's wrong. It can motivate action, highlight injustice, and drive change. The problem isn't feeling angry — it's what we do with it.
💬 Key Takeaways
- Anger is normal — aim for "most days," not "never." Most people get angry about once a day. The goal isn't eliminating anger; it's responding to it constructively.
- Plan ahead for your triggers. If you know a situation is likely to make you angry, prepare your response in advance. Non-complementary responses — staying calm when someone else is escalating — change the dynamic.
- Sometimes the healthiest choice is to disengage. Not every situation is resolvable. Knowing when to step away from a toxic or unresolvable situation is a skill, not a failure.
📚 More From Dr. Ryan Martin
- Book, How to Deal with Angry People — available wherever books are sold
- Website: AllTheRageScience.com
- Follow Dr. Ryan Martin on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter: @TheAngerProfessor
🎧 What's Next
That's a wrap on the Unfiltered Series! Next week, Truth, Lies & Work returns to its usual This Week in Work format — workplace news, expert takes, and the world-famous Workplace Surgery. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss it.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing, very calm, and not angry workplace cultures.
Al ElliottExactly. Welcome back everyone. Please don't be angry for this, like this, this next 10 seconds, because I know if you've listened to this before, then I normally tell you what's going on. It's a little bit different because we've kicked off January with something a bit special. This is what we call the Unfiltered series. This is 6 of 6. So today we're bringing you this final episode where we have shared the raw, unedited conversation with some of the most inspiring and thought-provoking guests we've ever had on the show.
Leanne ElliottThat's right. And what, what a series it's been. We started with Rory Sutherland, the creative genius behind some of the most innovative ideas in marketing. As if that wasn't enough, we brought you Professor John Amici. He challenges us to rethink how we lead with compassion and authenticity. We followed this with another legendary psychologist, Professor Sir Kerry Cooper, who just happens to be the world's number one wellbeing expert. Um, Professor Kerry reintroduces us to the idea and importance of financial wellbeing, especially at this time of year.
Al ElliottAnd we followed that with Nora Burns, who's also known as the Undercover Candidate, who gave us an unflinching look into the world of recruitment through her undercover research. Such a great story, that.
Leanne ElliottGo back and listen to that if you've not listened already.
Al ElliottAnd then last week, Bruce Daisley brought fresh insights into the resilience at work just when we needed it most.
Leanne ElliottAnd now, to close this series, we're diving into anger, a topic that has probably never been more relevant. There's so much happening in the world right now. There are wars, divisive politics, harassment in the workplace, economic uncertainty, layoffs, and maybe a certain new US president. If you have been struggling with anger or wondering how to handle it in others, today's episode is Our guest is Dr.
Al ElliottRyan Martin, better known as the Anger Professor. He's a psychologist, dean at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, and author of How to Deal with Angry People. Ryan first joined us on episode 81, I think, which has become one of our most popular episodes ever with over 10,000 listens.
Leanne ElliottThis is the unfiltered conversation. Ryan explains what anger really is, how it's different from aggression, and why that distinction is important. Plus, he shares practical strategies for managing anger and dealing with angry people in our lives and our workplaces.
Al ElliottAnd of course, if you missed any earlier episodes in this series, you can find them in your podcast feed or on YouTube. By the way, part 2, the secret episode of Rory Sutherland, is exclusive to YouTube, so make sure you go and check that out. If you do go to YouTube and you've heard it on the audio version, go in the comments and say hello.
Leanne ElliottYep. For now though, grab a cup of tea or something a little stronger if you're not doing Dry January and settle in for an episode that, as is insightful as it is practical.
Al ElliottSo, Dr. Ryan Martin, the stage is yours.
Leanne ElliottSo, Ryan Martin, welcome to Truth and Lies. We are so excited to have you. For anyone who hasn't heard of you, could you start by telling us who you are, what you do, and what you're famous for?
Al ElliottFamous? I, I can try, I guess. I'm, uh, I'm Dr. Ryan Martin. I am the dean at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay. I'm dean of the College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences. I've been a psychologist for a very long time, and I research and write about anger.
Leanne ElliottI want to start at the beginning with this. What is anger? Is there a definition that we share?
Al ElliottYeah, there is. I mean, I would argue, I guess if we're looking for a concise definition, I would say that anger is the emotional desire associated with having been wronged or treated badly or experiencing Some sort of goal blocking that includes a desire to lash out. And so that doesn't mean we have to act on that desire to lash out. It simply means we want, we have that desire to lash out at whatever is in our way or having treated us badly. And that's really important because anger as an emotion is very different from aggression, which is a behavior. And so people oftentimes conflate these 2 things. They think that anger, the emotion, is the same as aggression, the behavior, where that behavior is when we actually try to hurt someone or something.
Leanne ElliottSo an important distinction there, I guess, the difference between an emotion and a behavior. And is that something that's quite a common differentiation in psychology, in emotional psychology?
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. Because aggression As a behavior, it is sometimes motivated by anger. In fact, maybe even a lot of the time motivated by anger, but, but it doesn't have to be. There are lots of reasons why people aggress. There's lots of reasons why animals aggress, and sometimes it's anger, sometimes it's another emotion, sometimes it's more instrumental, meaning that aggression exists to solve a problem or for a particular purpose. Um, you know, so when you think about something like war, uh, that is motivated— that is clearly aggression— that isn't usually motivated just purely by anger, right? There's political reasons for that. There's all sorts of reasons for that. If you think about, you know, I live here in northeastern Wisconsin. There are lots and lots of hunters, uh, in the region I'm in. Um, they engage in what is ultimately an aggressive act, right, where they're where they are harming deer or duck or whatever. And that isn't motivated by anger. It's motivated by sport. It's motivated by pleasure, usually. So there's very different motivations for aggression. And so that's why that distinction is so important.
Leanne ElliottAre some people just more angry than others?
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So there's pretty significant individual differences, both in how often people get angry, but also in how they tend to express their anger, how intense that anger is expressed. We see pretty wide, broad differences with some people saying, you know, I get anger less than once a month. I get angry less than once a month. Or some other people saying, no, I get angry a couple times a day. Then there are people who get intensely angry when they get angry, right? They really kind of lose their cool. And then there are other people who don't. And then there's also some people who tend to express that anger outwardly. They may yell, they may scream, they may get aggressive. And there are other people who turn it inward. And I realize I'm really simplifying this. I'm sort of drawing the parallels here, or excuse me, the polar ends of the spectrum here. But you see variations all along the way there.
Leanne ElliottSo is it how— what will make one person more angry than the other? And is there, like you said, the frequency can change. Is there kind of like a, for lack of a better word, normal frequency at which we should experience anger?
Al ElliottYeah. The majority of people will say that they get angry about once a day. So I guess that's kind of the norm, whether or not that's healthy. Or whether or not that's sort of good for you is really the devil's in the details there, because a lot of whether or not angry— getting angry is healthy has to do less with frequency, but more with what you do with it, right? How do you express it? Do you express it in a way that causes you or people around you problems? Are you harming yourself? Are you harming others? Are you starting fights? Are you—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottDriving dangerously as a result? Are you overeating? Are you— right? There's a gajillion consequences that can come from an angry— a person who gets angry. And those consequences can come not— I mean, frequency matters, but it's not just frequency, right? Because you can get angry one time and get in a physical fight and do harm to yourself or harm to someone else. Or you can get angry all the time and not necessarily experience those consequences. So there's a lot of— it's really have to focus on some of those individual differences to really understand the impact and the role that anger is having in your life. Now, to go back to the first part of your question, so why are some people angrier than others? It is a really, really big, complicated question that includes a whole bunch of Different variables. So you can think about genetics playing a role, right? And so are there individual differences that you're essentially born with that will predict whether or not you have anger problems or whether or not you experience more anger? And yeah, there are, right? It could have something to do with sort of how the brain develops, could have something to do with testosterone levels. Things like that. Those are all ways that genetics play a role. There's also the modeling that we get, that we see from our caregivers. And so our upbringing is really going to matter. How was anger expressed? How was anger treated by our— by the people who raised us? What were we rewarded for? What were we punished for? All of those things are going to influence how and what our relationship is with anger. And then even beyond that, say you're just an adult operating in the world, there's all these situational factors that play a role. What is your environment like? Do you experience more provocations than other people? I mean, all of those are factors that can play a role in how angry you get.
Leanne ElliottI mean, with that, like you said, the environments that we're in, are humans getting angrier? Is the frequency of anger on the rise?
Al ElliottYeah. So this is one of those questions that I wish we had a thermometer. I wish we had a sense for how angry people get over time or have been over time. And we don't really have a good way to answer that now because we just don't have that kind of consistent indicator. Now, what we can do is extrapolate from some other pieces of data. That are out there. We can look at things like frequency of particular types of crimes, aggression-connected crimes. We could look at road rage and whether or not that we've seen increases in that. Actually, one of the things people oftentimes do is evaluate Twitter posts over time or tweets over time to see, are we seeing shifts there? All of those have their limitations. None of those are perfect indicators, in part because of the difference between anger as an emotion And aggression. And a lot of times those things are actually measuring aggression. So we don't have a clear answer to that. I think the data we have, though, would tell us that people do seem to be getting angrier, that most of those indicators I just mentioned have gotten worse over the last decade. I think we also see service providers, everything from fast food employees to waiters and waitresses to flight attendants to school teachers, not a service provider, but another job, really indicating that, yeah, we're seeing increases in anger as angry customers, angry students, and so forth. And some of those things are just becoming more common now.
Leanne ElliottWhat do you think is driving that? Why are we getting angrier?
Al ElliottYeah, I think there's a lot of different variables. I think if we were to look at our current situation, Some of the things you might see are there's been considerable economic uncertainty for a lot of people. So I think that's led to increases in stress, and those increases tend to exacerbate people's emotional reactivity. So I think we're also seeing more fear, more sadness, and so on. I do think we've also seen a lot of modeling from leaders. that tell us that it's okay to— especially, this is especially true in the United States, where I think we've seen a great deal of hostility from elected officials in the last 10 years that really, I think, send the message that it's okay to express your anger in particular ways. I think there's, at least in the United States, there's also a lot of political divisiveness separate from that modeling. That has sort of led to an us versus them mentality that was really exacerbated during the pandemic as well. And so I think that there's just a lot of hostility that is cropping up there. And so it's in a lot of ways, it's sort of a perfect situation here for, for people to get angry.
Leanne ElliottYou mentioned the modeling of behaviors, and I wonder whether that's something people might associate more in terms of like children or childhood, or I mean, what role does behavior modeling play in adult life?
Al ElliottYeah, that's a great question. And so I think what we see is a couple different things. So when you think about emotional development, I'm going to take the question, but I'm going to back it way up and talk about development quickly. So when you think about emotional development, there's something that happens that we refer to as display rules. And these are basically a culture's sort of rules for how we should display particular emotions.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottSo this is where a lot of that, the culture elements get built in that suggest things like, well, men shouldn't cry, right? That's something women do, et cetera. These are the rules that we get. We learn those rules early on when we're young, and then they continue through much of our life, but they don't go away. We continue to get these messages and our behavior continues to shift Over time based on sort of the messages we get from anything from maybe it's a romantic partner, we're in a new relationship now and not with our caregivers, and that relationship has sort of norms around how emotions can or can't be expressed. The other element here that's connected to modeling is what we call emotional contagion. And what it means is that we tend to pick up the emotions of those people around us. So if people around me are angry, I see that and I think there might be something I should be angry about. And so I'm more likely to get angry in that context. And this actually serves— all of these things serve an evolutionary purpose, that emotions exist to kind of ready us for a challenge. And so it's good for me to feel what the people around me are feeling. Because if they're mad, maybe I should be mad. If they're scared, maybe there's a threat that I should be scared of. So that's how we sort of pick up these feelings from our surroundings and how a version of modeling can really play a role in our adult life.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast Both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast.
Leanne ElliottIt's brought to you—
Al Elliottwe need to do this in threes— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Leanne ElliottI'll cut that out. You mentioned there when you're talking about anger that it's— and I'll try, I'll try and remember this correctly— but anger is, is either being treated unfairly, a sense of injustice, or goal blocking. Is there one of those 3 that is more likely, more frequent, more associated with aggression, is a bigger problem than the others?
Al ElliottI don't know that there is necessarily one of those that's going to be worse than than the other so much as it's probably individual dependent, right? So there are gonna be some people who, for whom, you know, injustice is a real hot button trigger, right? So I have 2 sons, you know, one is older than the other one. The younger one has a pretty hot sort of button for injustice, right? And this is in some ways the result of being the youngest and looking and feeling like, well, this isn't fair, right? This isn't, why does he get to do things I don't get to do? And that's a relatively common phenomenon. I say this also as the youngest, right? So those particular triggers can be important for specific people. I think, like, there are people who— because it's going to be tied to other personality characteristics as well. So I tend to be relatively Type A, right? I'm competitive. I like to be productive. I value sort of efficiency and things like that.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat I try to work through those things. For me, goal blocking is a particular trigger, right? Because whatever that thing is, is standing in the way of me trying to be all those things, right? If I try and print something out and the printer stops working, that's really frustrating because this is a thing that's supposed to just work and now it's interfering in my goals. And so I think that's where those Those individual differences come into play. Now, the other thing I would say too, though, is I present those in the book. I present them as sort of 3 separate things, but ultimately those 3 things overlap considerably, right? They aren't really distinct. Poor treatment is often tied to injustice. Goal blocking is oftentimes tied to poor treatment, right? Someone standing in your way intentionally is doing both. So these things, even though, yeah, I talk about them separately, they oftentimes go together.
Leanne ElliottIt was a real breakthrough for me when I was— when I was in terms of goal blocking, because Al, my, my co-host and my husband, the printer not working infuriates him. He will throw things across the room. And I'm the youngest. I'm more— yeah, it's just, it's so interesting when you start to see those patterns in the people around you. I mean, with that in mind, is that what I really liked about your books is it's It's kind of peppered with different facts and different tips. Is there perhaps some facts that you think will surprise people about anger?
Al ElliottYeah, I think one of the things that probably surprises people the most is the nature of gender differences when it comes to anger, because people have, I think, a myth about anger. A pretty prominent myth is the idea that men are angrier than women. And while there's tons of evidence that says that men tend to express their anger in particular ways that are different from how women express their anger, there isn't necessarily a difference in who's getting angry. That what we see is that they get angry at approximately the same frequency. Men and women also experience anger in a similar intensity, but men tend to express it outwardly. Um, yelling, screaming, hitting things. Women tend to express it inwardly, um, you know, uh, social withdrawal, uh, suppression, maybe even crying, uh, things like that. And so that— and that's, that's rooted also in upbringing and modeling in those display rules that I mentioned, that, uh, women tend to get messages about how they should internalize their emotions. They shouldn't express them outwardly. Men tend to get messages, or boys and men tend to get messages about expressing their anger outwardly. So I think that's a pretty common myth surrounding anger. But probably the most common myth surrounding anger is the idea that catharsis, or like the aggressive expression of anger, punching a pillow, punching a punching bag, breaking things, the idea that that's a good way to let anger out. There's zero evidence that that's a good, healthy way to let anger out. In fact, all the evidence we have says that that's bad for you. It leads to more aggression later on. It leads to more intense anger later on. And we should find other ways of dealing with anger than that.
Leanne ElliottHow does that get into the popular realm then? Because it's such a thing, isn't it? With the axe throwing or smashing up glasses, or how does that get so mistranslated from literature to practice?
Al ElliottWell, great question. And I would say there's really a couple of things. First, the idea of catharsis as an approach is rooted in Aristotle, right? I mean, this is as old as it gets when it comes to a way of dealing with anger. So we've got a pretty significant history we've got to undo. In psychology, it took off with Freud, who really had this hydraulic model for how human emotions worked and the belief that we have to let out steam in order to deal with our anger, right? Otherwise, we'd explode. Sort of a pressure cooker type of mentality. And Freud, for all of the ways in which he was wrong, still had a pretty profound impact on the field of psychiatry and the fields of psychiatry and psychology. And so we're still living with that impact. And I think part of the problem is, I mean, there are sort of 2 parts of this problem, actually. The first is that it's a really It feels like it's accurate, right? It feels like that should be true, right? Why not? Why don't I have to let it out somewhere? And so it feels like it should be true in that way. The other part of it is that typically when people do sort of explode and break things or whatever, they feel good. They feel better afterwards. So it feels like it helps that way too. I'll just give you an example. I had to take a load of stuff to the dump recently, right? And we just filled up the back of my minivan and went to the dump. And at one point I took— my son had a loft, we were taking it apart. And so it was all just like bits of wood and stuff. And at one point I just decided I'm going to see how far I can throw this 2x4. And I did. And it was oddly satisfying. Like, it felt really good to just throw this thing as far as I could into the dump. And I And I think that's true for a lot of people. It feels good, therefore it must work. But of course, overeating probably feels good, right? That doesn't necessarily mean it's a good, productive way of dealing with emotions. Substances like alcohol and other drugs feel good. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're good, healthy ways of coping. There's lots of things that feel good that don't necessarily make those things good for us.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd what we— So I think that also adds to this problem or this perception problem. The reason we know it's not good is because the people who do it frequently, the people who are taught to do it frequently, they have more long-term problems with anger, and they even have more short-term problems with anger. So they're more likely to be aggressive. They're more likely to have relationship problems. They're more likely to engage in all of these things. And this is even true when we do it in experimental-type designs where we bring someone into a lab, we break them into 2 groups. We say, hey, you're going to punch this punching bag for an hour. And then we say to the other group— not an hour, but 10 minutes. And we're going to say to this other group, hey, you're going to do some other task. We find that the group that's been punching something, they end up being more aggressive and more angry after that than they were before.
Leanne ElliottI really enjoyed the first part of your book, which talks all about the different research and misconceptions and aspects of anger and case studies as well you bring into it. I mean, was there a favorite piece of, of research for you, or a favorite case study that you felt just really demonstrated how to deal with angry people, or what we need to understand about angry people first to be able to deal with them?
Al ElliottYeah. There's a couple of stories there that I really like. One of them is the— I think it's the first case study I talk about in the book, is a woman talking about her relationship with her dad. And it was just a phenomenal story to hear, partially because she was so insightful and so thoughtful. She was actually, and is now, a practicing psychologist as well. At the time, she was in grad school and So she shared a lot of insight into understanding her dad's anger and where it came from and its impact on her, its impact on their relationship, its impact on her future relationships. And so it was a really, really thoughtful, powerful interview for me. And it also even, I think, touches on some of those other elements too about About kind of the genetic component, modeling, what we learn, just the complicated and nuanced way that anger can inform our relationships and shape who we are. So I love that particular story. The other one I love is the case study about the director of the performing arts center talking about when they reopened after COVID.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd essentially the day she had dealing with angry and aggressive crowds, because it really speaks to that contagion element. And in particular, what was interesting about that is the way she described it. As she said, some of the anger she was experiencing that day felt performative. It felt like people were actually trying to rile up the crowd. And so there's sort of two 2 really interesting elements there. There's the contagion that happens accidentally, right, that you don't know about, where just you're surrounded by angry people and you start to feel angry. But then there's also the contagion that happens intentionally, where someone is trying to sort of incite a mob, essentially, or trying to incite that kind of aggression and anger. And those things are both overlapping and potentially really scary and can put people in So you've mentioned that anger is contagious.
Leanne ElliottIs anger addictive at all? Do people like to be angry?
Al ElliottYeah, I'm going to approach this one carefully only because the word addiction is kind of— it means different things to different people. And so I want to be clear, I'm not necessarily talking about addiction in the same way a substance abuse counselor would be, but I do think there's something to be said For the idea that people, people like being angry, that it can feel really powerful to some people. It can help some people get what they want. And they may not necessarily think about it that way, but they might use their anger as a way of manipulating people, either by— oftentimes by scaring people. And so, and then also Sometimes it's— there's this sort of this righteous rage that can emerge for people that feels really good. And so in that sense, I, you know, I'd be cautious about calling it addictive, but I can say all of those positive outcomes, all those positive experiences, um, make people happy to be feeling it and wanting to feel it more often. And so, or even sort of intentionally. Trying to feel it. And so I think in that sense, yeah, I mean, it's something that people can sort of cling to.
Leanne ElliottI mean, with that in mind, and you mentioned the political climate, and it's 2024, we've got some big elections happening this year in the US and the UK. Has anger been weaponized in terms of political leadership, political gain?
Al ElliottAbsolutely. I mean, I think it's undeniable that You know, elected officials motivate with anger. They motivate with fear. Those are approaches that have long been used by political candidates and I think are being used more often. And there's even, you know, so there's a study, it's a little bit older study at this point, but still relevant, that people are twice as likely to click on an angering political ad than they are like a more neutral political ad. And so if you're a campaign manager, it is actually stupid not to make people angry, right? You've just doubled the value of your ad by making it anger-inducing. And so there's a real clear goal there, or reason or rationale for why you should be trying to increase anger. I would even take it a step further. We know that anger is one of the most, if not the most, viral emotions, meaning content spreads online much faster if it's anger-inducing. And so from that perspective, it is smart to try and make people angry in those moments.
Leanne ElliottKnowing what you know about anger and social media and Are you afraid of the rate of anger potentially in the world?
Al ElliottYeah. I think what I'm more afraid of than the frequency of anger, because I would argue there's a lot for people to be angry at right now. I mean, I think it'd be fair to say that I am a relatively angry person. People don't think of me that way because I'm not someone who yells and screams and gets in fights, but But I deal with a fair amount of anger and frustration day in and day out, most often about sort of broader political and systemic issues. What I'm more scared of is the degree to which cruel treatment and aggression have been normalized. And so what I find worrisome is less the amount of anger and more The way in which we use it, some of the impulse control problems people have. Those things are things that I think are essentially much more worrisome to me and much more frightening to me.
Leanne ElliottBefore we move on to some of the strategies that you discuss in your book, I just want to just ask you, because you talk quite a bit in the first part of your book about the difference between You know, a person experiencing anger as a state and a person being angry as a personality trait. If somebody's listening, how can they maybe tell the difference between, I'm just angry because there's a lot to be angry about, or actually I have an angry personality?
Al ElliottYeah, that's a great question. And in reality, there isn't necessarily a dividing line, right? You know, that I think what it really comes down to is all human beings get angry. We are all capable of experiencing that emotional state the same way all human beings get scared or all human beings get sad or all human beings get happy, that we're all capable of experiencing those emotional states. However, we also know that there are some people who are just angrier than others, and that part of what's going on for them is that they are just more likely to kind of have that switch flipped, that they're more likely to enter that state frequently. They're more likely to express that anger negatively. They're more likely to experience consequences as a result of their anger. They're more likely to— they feel anger more intensely than other people. And I think I would argue that One of the best ways to kind of figure out if you're that person is to pay attention to those consequences. How frequently am I getting into arguments? How frequently am I having relationships disrupted because of my anger? How frequently am I driving dangerously or maybe in a way that scares the people around me? And if the answer is often, if the answer is, yeah, that's happening for me way more than other people, I think it's fair to say, well, maybe it's you, right? Maybe you are the reason that's happening. Even then, not always, right? I mean, some people are just surrounded by other people who provoke them. They're, like we said earlier, they're in a situation that tends to bring that anger out where they experience more provocations. But going through that process of self-reflection, is a really important piece to figure that out.
Leanne ElliottMoving on to the strategies you outline in your book then, there's 10 of them altogether, how to deal with angry people. If people just adopted one, which one should it be?
Al ElliottYeah, that's kind of a tough question to ask, I think, or answer, excuse me. I think what I would say is probably the most important is to, in those moments, Think about your goals and make that the priority. And I say that because in those angry moments, or when those moments when someone's angry at you, I think a lot of different things come up for you, right? Sometimes you want to get revenge. Sometimes you get scared. A lot of different feelings come up. And one of the best things you can do in those moments is think about, okay, so what What is my goal right now? What is it that I want to accomplish? And then make that the priority. Because if the goal is, say I'm driving to work and I make a mistake and I make someone mad, and then that— or maybe I don't make a mistake, maybe I'm just not driving as fast as someone else wants me to, and I make them mad and they start trying to get back at me or provoke me. In that moment, I can say, you know what, my goal is just to get to work safely or to get my kids to school safely. In which case, the smart thing to do is to back off that person, to get someplace else, even to pull over, to go a different way, whatever, to avoid that person. That's the smart thing to do to accomplish that goal. Or I can say, I want to get back at this person. And if I— and if that becomes the goal, and it shouldn't be, but if that becomes the goal, Well, then I engage in a totally different set of behaviors. The same thing could be said if I am provoked by someone at work or someone online and they say something that they're clearly angry with me. I should think about, okay, so what do I want to accomplish here? Do I want to get in a fight with this person publicly? Do I want to convince them they're wrong? Do I want to convince everybody watching that this person is wrong? How do I want to pursue that? And then make that the priority, because there's different tactics you're going to use in all of those different situations. Like what you do if you want to prove— if you want to get into a fight and actually embarrass the person is different than if you want to try and convince everyone watching. That they're wrong, right? And so those are different tactics and you gotta be thinking about those.
Leanne ElliottIs there a strategy that you find the most difficult?
Al ElliottYeah, I mean, I think for a lot of people and for me, it's probably finding ways, and this has gotten way easier for me over time. I think I've just gotten better at it, but is finding ways to stay calm in those moments. Most people will say, I know the right thing to do, or I believe I know the right thing to do. I just can't get myself to do it in the moment, right? Because I lose my temper, or I get anxious, or I get angry. And so finding those mechanisms to, in the moment, stay calm is probably the most challenging.
Leanne ElliottAre there any mechanisms that you found to be more effective than others?
Al ElliottYeah, I think there's probably 2 things that I would encourage people to do. And I think both of them are rooted in the idea that You just, like anything else, to get good at that, you have to practice. And the, there's 2 things I would say. The, the first is plan ahead. So a lot of, a lot of these interactions that are not even just when people are mad at us, but that are gonna be emotional, are moments that we can anticipate. We forget that sometimes. Like, you know, if you're going to a meeting and you know people are going to do and say things. That are going to frustrate you, or people are— you're going to say things that frustrate other people. You can plan ahead for what they're going to say, and you can sort of practice, right? And think about, well, how am I going to react when so-and-so says this? Or how am I going to react when so-and-so does this? And then once you're a little bit practiced, once you've actually run through those scenarios in your head a few times, it becomes much easier when the actual scenario happens for you to just stay cool and stay calm and have kind of reflected and prepared yourself for it. The other side of it is actually reflecting on those moments after the fact. And this feels a little weird to people. They say, well, how does that help? But it helps you for next time. So if you can— I liken it to— I'm a big Sports fan, right? And so one of the things that as a, as an athlete we always did, and I know professional athletes do all the time, is they go back and watch game tape. And I, I liken sometimes reflecting back on things to watching game tape. Um, like, I'm gonna think back on this interaction and I'm going to critically evaluate my role in that. And that part's really important because people oftentimes reflect on those things, but they say Totally focused on what the other person did. What I'm saying is reflect back on it, but focus on yourself. Otherwise, it's similar to watching game tape, but only of what the other team did, right? Which doesn't make any sense. It's about paying attention to, okay, when so-and-so said this, I responded this way. Was that the right thing to do? Should I have, should I have done this? Should I have handled this differently? This has become just a question I ask of my coworkers all the time. When we have a difficult meeting, one of the things we come back as part of our way of debriefing is for me to say and ask them honestly, like, what did I do wrong? Like, where are the points in this meeting where I should have said something different or where I could have said something different? And we talk through that stuff with the hope that we can kind of get a sense for how to handle these things in the future.
Leanne ElliottI mean, from the— in the moment of that as a leader, and I love that scenario, it's Because I think it's such a common one as well. I mean, if you are that leader running that meeting and things are starting to escalate between other members of the team, what can you perhaps do in that moment to try and keep people cool?
Al ElliottYeah. Some of it is, a lot of it actually has to do, it goes back to the modeling and how you're responding to things. And so, there's this phenomenon that we talk about in psychology, referred to as non-complementary responses, right? And so, because what that means is we tend to match each other's emotions. This is that emotional contagion piece. So if I'm in a meeting and people are getting elevated and they start to yell, I'm more likely— or just raise their voice or whatever— I'm more likely to actually match that emotional response by raising my voice, by, by sort of potentially getting elevated as well. That's the complementary response. The non-complementary response is for me to do the opposite, is for me to lower my voice, is for me to speak a little more calmly. And what we see is that that ends up having the impact of de-escalating them. And so a big piece of it is going back to that, finding ways to stay calm in the moment, that that can play a really positive role there. The other thing that I tend to do in those situations is I'm a pretty big advocate for transparency, but including transparency surrounding how I might be feeling in a particular moment. And so at a certain point, I might actually say, hey, I'm actually starting to get a little frustrated with the direction we're going right now. Can we back up for a second and talk about this? I tend to— this is my roots as a counseling psychologist. I believe in And every now and then, just needed to take time to talk about the process, right? And to talk about not just the outcome, not just the goals, but like, hey, what are we doing right now? And how is what we are doing and how we're doing it impacting that outcome?
Leanne ElliottIs there any kind of work-based scenario where anger can actually be useful?
Al ElliottI think there is. I think there's— one of the things we see is Anger is associated with— in fact, I think there was a recent study on this, but I'm not super familiar with it just yet— but where anger has been shown to help people achieve their goals. And part of it is, if you think of anger the way I do, as fuel, anger can be a nice, really valuable motivator to get people to work out toward things and to accomplish their goals. So it's valuable that way. I think sometimes anger can be really— can have a team-building effect, meaning if we're all angry at the same people or in the same way, it can really build camaraderie that way. So sometimes a leader's anger might actually drive that sort of team building. That's a time where it might actually be smart to be a little bit performative. in your anger to try and build that sense of community. You know, even if you think about it, if you think about that scenario I described earlier at the performing arts center, if you think about it from, I guess what I would say, the villain's perspective, they were using anger in a smart way to try and build community amongst the people they're trying to motivate.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottAnd so that's a case where their anger, their performative anger is designed to try and get people on their side to build up this community of people who are going to fight the performing arts center director, which feels weird to say.
Leanne ElliottThere's 10 strategies in the book, How to Deal with an Angry Person. I think the one that I definitely want to touch on as well is when— what's the sign that we just need to disengage from that person? What is the sign that we've done what we can within our control? It's time to Time to move them.
Al ElliottYeah, it's a good question. And I think you can think about this in 2 ways, right? Because, you know, there's, there's 2 types of— broadly speaking, there's 2 types of situations when we are, when we're dealing with an angry person. There are those one-off circumstances, a person we ran into in the street, a person we ran into and, and, you know, on the road or whatever. And then there's the other kind of situation, which is people who are in our lives. in a meaningful way, right? A spouse, a child, a parent, a boss, a coworker, a friend, whatever. And, um, but you can, in some ways you can apply the same principles to both of those types of situations. It's just way easier in the one-off situation. And that is when, when it's clear there is no resolution that can be accomplished, meaning I can't This is just where we're at. We're going to have to either agree to disagree or just move on because this person's mad at me and nothing I can do seems to change that. And so it's smart to just back away and be done with this. A variation of that is when we're not safe, when this person is an actual literal threat to us. And I think you can take both of those same principles and you can apply them to the longstanding relationship as well and say, I am in this relationship. This person is not willing to change. They're not able to change. This relationship is not good for me, or I don't feel safe in this relationship because of this person's anger, and therefore I need to find a way to disengage. I think the thing that's really important for people to hear though is that disengaging from those relationships doesn't necessarily mean cutting off contact completely. It can look a lot of different ways. And so, you know, I talk to people who, who say, well, for me, I, I still engage with them, but I don't let my— you know, if it's a parent or something like that, and they say, but I don't let my kids engage with them. Like I sort of said, like, I'll, I'll be there, but I don't want my kids to see See that. Or they'll say, I spend time with them, but only sort of for big events and only in small doses. Right. So it's like for holidays, I'll go over there for about an hour, and then the rest of the time I kind of disengage. They also tell me oftentimes they're sort of explicit about that. They might— one person I talked to said, hey, my dad's anger is a real problem. I still want a relationship with my mom. So I have been explicit with them that, Hey, I'm coming over here. I'm uncomfortable in these situations. I'm really doing it because I want to continue to have a relationship with mom, but I need to disengage a little bit in this way. So it can look a lot of different ways and be— and there are variations of how healthy those things can be.
Leanne ElliottI want to ask you before our time comes to an end about TikTok, because you are the anger professor on On TikTok. I'm quite an old millennial, so I kind of missed the TikTok boat, truth be told. But I enjoy your TikTok stuff and I'm starting to get into it more. What— why did you decide to start posting on TikTok in the first place?
Al ElliottLike a lot of people, I decided on a whim one day to check out TikTok during the pandemic, right? And so I had a little bit more free time on my hands back then and I thought, well, let's see what this is. And I think in my, in my mind, All it was was sort of entertaining humor, dancing, stuff like that. That's what I thought TikTok was. Decided to check it out. And one of the things I discovered is that there were really good, interesting people there, oftentimes scientists trying to educate. And I thought, well, maybe this is something— I mean, we talked earlier about the catharsis myth. We talked about how people don't necessarily understand what anger is. And I thought maybe this is a venue where where I can try and clarify some myths for people about what anger is, what it's not, best ways to express it, and so on. And so I decided, well, let's give it a go. And for, I think maybe for the first month or so, I felt like I was just shouting into an abyss. No one was paying attention at all. And so I put a video out and maybe one person would see it, maybe two. And then Over time, all of a sudden things started to increase a little bit. And then I think part of why I continued with it and why I moved at a certain point over to Instagram is because people started to tell me how much it was helping. And that's almost, honestly, that's sort of always been my goal as a psychologist is to think about the ways. It's ultimately the same reason I wrote the book.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottRight, is I want people to have a healthier relationship with their emotions. And this is— there's lots of different ways we can kind of share that information out with people. And I believe in meeting people where they're at. And if they're on TikTok or they're on Instagram, then we should try and share with them there.
Leanne ElliottWell, there are some kind of polar opposite views, aren't there, in terms of psychologists being on social media? I mean, where do you stand? Is that the point? Is it about education going to them rather than expecting people to Come to psychology?
Al ElliottYeah. It's funny. I had a conversation with my editor at one point and we were talking and for whatever reason, when I started writing the book, I didn't— when I started writing my first book, I didn't necessarily want to think of it as a self-help book. And she asked me why. And I said, well, because ultimately I want people to go to therapy. If they need help, I want them to go to therapy. And her response was, Ryan, not everybody can afford therapy. And she's not wrong. And this is a flaw, at least in the American healthcare system, and probably in lots of other healthcare systems as well. Not everybody can afford the kind of help that they need. And so then it becomes a question of, is this book— it's probably not good enough to help a person who has a serious anger problem, but is it Can it help a little? And I'd say the same, and I believe it can. I think that for people who maybe their problems aren't quite as critical, I think it'll help. And I think the same thing is true for social media, is for people who are just trying to have a healthier emotional life, can they learn enough from The social media psychologists to develop that better understanding. The other thing I would say is if all of the well-trained, smart, thoughtful psychologists decide, nope, this isn't the venue for me, then we're giving that space up to people who are pseudo-psychologists, pseudoscientists, and that's not healthy either. And so is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is there tons of misinformation there? Absolutely. I don't know that the solution is to say, well, let's pull all the good information, right, and not have that be present there.
Leanne ElliottI want to— I love that, by the way. And I couldn't agree more. I think it's such a danger to disengage from something because you can't, you can't see a way of fixing it. It's like giving up, right? I want to ask you that before you go about one of my favorite, favorite things about your book. And I'm going on about it because I'll be honest, I read a lot of books, both for my work and for the podcast, and I don't enjoy A lot of them, but I absolutely loved yours. And one of my favorite things about it were the footnotes. Can I ask you about that? Why did you choose to include footnotes?
Al ElliottI hope people will recognize that imitation is the greatest form of flattery. But so there's an author who I absolutely adore named Mary Roach who wrote Stiff and Spook and Bonk Packing from Ours and Gulp and Grunt and all sorts of books. She's phenomenal. And it's a style of hers that I was trying to emulate. Now, she's an incredible storyteller, but part of what's so great is that she'll drop these footnotes down at the bottom of a lot of pages. Sometimes they go on for a very long time. Sometimes they're longer than the text on the actual page that are these great sort of tangential stories.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd I've always loved that about her. In fact, I think the first time I read one of her books, I wasn't reading them at first because I didn't realize that they were sort of woven into the narrative the way they were. And I ended up going back once I realized, oh, these are great. I went back and reread some of them. But ultimately, I mean, I think the reason to go even deeper, the reason why I like that is because it's actually Both my books are written in the same style that I teach, which is a combination of stories and science and some tangents. And those footnotes are tangents, right? It's the little moments that I sort of depart from class content to share sort of a silly related story. And that was my goal.
Leanne ElliottI loved it. I laughed out loud at quite a few of them.
Al ElliottThank you.
Leanne ElliottEspecially the being hip and cool with the, um, um, with the, um, G by E. That made me laugh.
Al ElliottGood, I'm glad.
Leanne ElliottUm, I want to ask you, Ryan, before you go— I mean, you're so, you're so engaging, you make psychology so accessible, you, you have a passion for teaching, you're, you know, obviously very interested in, in anger as an emotion and emotional psychology in general. What do we maybe need to understand about young Ryan to better understand the psychologist we're talking to now?
Al ElliottYeah. Well, so here's the backstory. Young Ryan was not a very good student. Young Ryan was actually a very bad student for much of elementary school and middle school and even high school, and ended up getting connected to a handful of teachers in high school that sort of made all the difference And shifting my thinking. And I think through that, it's actually a way in which I'm different from a lot of my colleagues, meaning other professors. Most of my colleagues were successful academically throughout their lives, highly successful academically. And because of that, I think what I bring with me is a real sense of what it's like to fail as a student. And it's given me a lot of empathy for our students. It's given me a lot of empathy for how those struggles sometimes aren't motivated by a lack of ability or a lack, even a lack of interest that they might be. Because I think fundamentally, as a kid, I was not very confident. I didn't think that I ever knew the answers. I didn't think I was ever going to be right. I didn't think anybody was ever interested in what I had to say. And so it took a lot of work for me to get to a point of thinking, no, I can do this. And it was the encouragement of teachers that got me there. And so I am deeply, deeply thankful to the teachers who never gave up on me, even when I think honestly they would've had a right to, where it would've made sense to say, nope, he's— this one's a lost cause. I think there's probably a world where that would've made sense. And I'm thankful that they didn't.
Leanne ElliottBefore we end this conversation, Ryan, what's the question that I should have asked you?
Al ElliottOh, goodness. Well, the question you didn't ask that almost everyone does is, why anger in the first place? So why did I get interested in this? And like a lot of people, my interest in anger is— or my interest in what I study is rooted in Childhood experiences. I think I, you know, I continue to be an angry person in some ways, even though it doesn't seem that way. But I do, I do have that same injustice trigger that we talked about before. That's been with me for a long time. And when I was a kid, I was, I was angry, you know, and I lived with an angry dad. And so I had a lot of modeling in that way, too. And so I think a lot of those things led to me wanting to continue to study this and wanting to know more about it and wanting to be able to help other people who might be dealing with their anger.
Leanne ElliottIf there is anyone listening thinking, you know what, my anger might be a problem, what would your advice be? What should they do?
Al ElliottYeah, I mean, I think I would start by saying, I mean, to those people who can, get help, people who can afford or have access to therapy, I would encourage you to try and do that. Short of that, I think one of the things that I would encourage people to do, and by the way, I'll back up and just say that's a really brave act. It's a really brave act for someone to, and also does not reflect weakness. In fact, it reflects a considerable strength To say, I'm going to go, and it's empowering in a lot of ways to say, I'm going to go deal with this problem and I'm going to work with someone to deal with it. So I would start there. For a lot of people, if there isn't— if they don't have that kind of access or they don't have the finances to support that, there are good, high-quality free resources out there or inexpensive resources out there. I mean, one of the things, I have a website called alltheragescience.com, tons and tons of anger management tips and suggestions and content related to that. There's other great places too. Mayo Clinic has a great website. Verywell Mind is a really great website. Wondermind. I love Wondermind. That's Selena Gomez's website. And it's a great, great great resource. You can even filter by feeling when you go there. And so if you click the anger button, it'll take you to articles about anger or whatever. So check out some of those high-quality resources and do what you can. Brilliant.
Leanne ElliottWe'll be sure to leave a link to all of those resources in the description, in the show notes. Where should people go to find out more about you, to find your content?
Al ElliottYeah, you can find me at Anger Professor on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter. You can also go to alltheragescience.com to find more about me personally. Also check out my books there. And then, you know, there's, like I said, a gajillion resources on that website as well. So I've been managing it for a long time. So there's lots and lots and lots of anger management tips and recent research and things like that. What a way to close out this series. Dr. Ryan gave us such valuable insights into the nature of anger, why it's misunderstood, and how we can manage it a little bit more effectively.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. And I just loved how Ryan broke down the difference between anger and aggression and shared those actionable strategies for actually handling anger in the moment and the aftermath. We're all facing some anger challenges right now. Couldn't recommend his book More. Um, it's How to Deal with Angry People. I'll leave a link in the show notes. It's brilliant.
Al ElliottSo as Leanne says, if you want to dive deeper into Ryan's work, then look at the book How to Deal with Angry People, look at the website, and also we've got all the links in the show notes. So you don't even need to search for it. Just go to the show notes. You'll find them. Click, have a little look.
Leanne ElliottBut if you did, All the Rage Science is his website where he has lots and lots of different resources. But as I said, there's a, there's a link in the show notes. That's it for our Unfiltered series. A huge thank you to all of our incredible guests. Rory Sutherland, Professor John Amici, Professor Sir Kerry Cooper, Nora Burns, Bruce Daisley, and of course, Dr. Ryan Martin for sharing their insights with us.
Al ElliottWhat an absolute stunning lineup. We are so fortunate. But don't worry, we're just getting started for 2025. We've got some fantastic guest episodes coming your way, and we're back next Tuesday with our usual— yep, it's all back to normal with our usual This Week in Work format. If you've missed me poking Leanne with a stick and shouting, dance, psychology monkey, dance, then the wait is almost over. So make sure you've subscribed so you don't miss a single minute of it.
Leanne ElliottAnd as always, follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, or TikTok, and wherever you hang out, get in touch. We always leave our details in the show notes. And if you're feeling a little angry this new year, you're not the only one. You'll also find a list of resources in the show notes if you're looking for a little bit more support this January. And if you've enjoyed this Unfiltered series, if you'd enjoy us, just let in the conversation flow, then let us know. Maybe this is something we can do again in the future.
Al ElliottYeah, or perhaps— in fact, if you, if you think it's better for us just to run the interview and shut up rather than cutting back to the studio, then let us know that too. If enough of you say you prefer that format, we've changed it before, we'll change it again. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us. Have a fabulous rest of the day, week, stroke month, depending on next time we meet. Um, I think it's time to say goodbye, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottGoodbye, Leanne.
Al ElliottBye, guys.