Episode 197 · 15 May 2025 · 50:56
Is Feminine Intelligence for men too? With Elina Teboul
Featuring Elina Teboul
Is Feminine Intelligence for men too? With Elina Teboul
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Introducing Elina Teboul and Feminine Intelligence
Beyond masculine vs. feminine energy
interview#feminine-energy#masculine-energy#gender#leadership
Why the pendulum is swinging back
Choosing the name 'Feminine Intelligence'
What feminine intelligence looks like in practice
interview#listening#receptiveness#feminine-intelligence#leadership-skills
Metrics, numbers, and what they miss
Pushback: do you need it to be successful?
The Gordon Gekko era and redefining power
Does lacking feminine intelligence make you a bad leader?
Psychedelics and somatic work in leadership coaching
interview#psychedelics#somatic-work#leadership-coaching#therapy
Show notes
Is Feminine Intelligence for Men Too? — with Elina Teboul
Guest: Elina Teboul — executive advisor, former Wall Street lawyer, and author of Feminine Intelligence.
What if the traits we've been told to suppress at work — intuition, emotional presence, creativity, connection — are actually the superpowers modern leadership has been missing?
Elina joins Al and Leanne to challenge decades of leadership orthodoxy. Drawing on years of coaching top executives, she makes the case that "feminine intelligence" isn't about gender — it's about wholeness. And leaders who ignore it? They're the ones stuck in disconnected, underperforming cultures while burning themselves out trying to dominate their way through.
This isn't a conversation about men vs. women. It's a call to rebalance — and it might just define the future of work.
Top 3 Takeaways
Feminine Intelligence isn't about gender — it's about wholeness. Empathy, presence, intuition, and creativity aren't "soft skills." They're essential for resilient leadership, and they're available to every leader regardless of how they identify.
Over-reliance on dominance and linear thinking is breaking our cultures. When leaders default to ego, control, and metrics alone, they burn themselves out and leave their teams disconnected. Redefining power — from domination to connection — is the key to cultures that both perform and sustain.
It starts with self. Before you can lead with feminine intelligence, you have to do the internal work. That might mean psychedelic-assisted therapy, somatic practices, or simply learning to listen — to others and to yourself.
More From Elina Teboul
- Website: elinateboul.com
- Book, Feminine Intelligence: available wherever you get your books
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/elinateboul
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered occupational psychologist. My name is Al and I'm a business owner. And today we are here, and every day, to help you create amazing workplace cultures. Yes, Al's not here. I'm sorry. I know, I know he's your favorite. I know he's my favorite too, but he's not here. He's at the dentist getting his tooth fixed. Um, and it's all, you know, when it's like numb and, and you can't really talk properly, and you know how it is. You know how it is. So I said, it's okay, I've got this one now. I'm in the driving seat. I'm in the proper like podcast producing seat where I'm not usually allowed to be. This will probably get all All cut out. Um, but anyway, Ali is here on the episode because he actually did the interview with our guest today. So you will get your, uh, your little twice-weekly fix of the lovely Al. So speaking of today's guest, this week we are joined by Elina Teboul, executive advisor, former Wall Street lawyer, and author of Feminine Intelligence. And she's here to challenge our assumptions about power, success, and what it really means to lead. This isn't a book about gender, it's a call to rebalance. Elina argues that we've been over-indexed on traditional masculine traits like dominance, logic, and linear thinking— that masculine energy we've been reading about— and it's leaving leaders disconnected, depleted, and often joyless. Instead, she makes a case for feminine intelligence: intuition, creativity, emotional presence, and relational awareness. Not just as nice-to-haves, but as core traits of resilient, future-ready leaders. We dig into everything from psychological patriarchy and corporate ego to psychedelic therapy and climate leadership, not to mention why your most powerful leadership tool might be learning to truly listen. So, after this very short break, join us and Al as we explore why tapping into creativity, emotion, and connection isn't a leadership weakness. It's It might just be the future of work.
Elina TeboulThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Al ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Elina TeboulNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Al ElliottWelcome back. Let's join Al and Elina and learn what feminine intelligence is and most importantly, what it's not.
Elina TeboulI'm joined here by a fascinating woman. I have lots of questions, some of them which I never have asked anyone ever before. So I'm really excited to get into that. But rather than do an introduction myself, I'd like you to introduce yourself if you can. Please tell us who you are and what you do.
Elina TeboulMy name is Elina Teboul, and I am the author of Feminine Intelligence, which has just been released in March. And I run a leadership advisory practice out of London.
Elina TeboulLet's start, Elina, with the feminine intelligence, because I think that a lot of men would look at that and go, well, that's not for me, but from what I understand, it might well be for them.
Elina TeboulAbsolutely. So feminine intelligence is a great place to start, is a very welcoming topic, and it is really about finding wholeness, and it is about balancing the masculine and the feminine energy within each of us, regardless of our gender. And this is a concept really that started with Carl Jung, who talked about individuation, and we cannot find our joy, our purpose, and self-actualize unless we are whole and reach this idea of individuation. And that means that for women, we need to understand our feminine side, of course, but also be able to tap into the masculine. And for men as well, and this is really important, is that it's very important to be able to tap into feminine energy. So I'll dive right in here because I think this is really important, is we throw around this idea of the patriarchy a lot. And there's political Patriarchy, which is about the oppression of women, and that's one thing, but then there's psychological patriarchy. And I think a lot of men have really suffered under psychological patriarchy because they have been conditioned from a very young age to believe that showing emotion, showing vulnerability, tapping into their intuition, even their creativity is somehow not masculine, and that is for women. And as a psychologist and as someone who has worked with extremely successful business leaders who have been actually predominantly men, equally men and women, I would say, but many, many very successful men, I find that they're often missing a part of themselves. They're often not able to tap into their emotional side, and that impacts their relationships very heavily. That also impacts their business leadership, that impacts their ability to tap into joy and awe and authenticity. And so when I say, you know, for men to tap into their feminine intelligence, it is by no means saying anything around being like effeminate, or I guess people used to use like weird terms back in the day, like metrosexual. I don't think I've heard that one for a while, but it's none of those things. It has nothing to do with an outward perception of Hmm. kind of femininity that I can completely understand why many men would not want to be associated with, and that's totally fine. And you can be outwardly masculine in the traditional definition and yet be able to tap into these energies, which is really fantastic for inspiring others, for having good relationship, and for finding wholeness. So Men in the room, please join us.
Elina TeboulSo I think that a lot of people would think, all right, it's as straightforward as masculine energy is logic and feminine energy is emotions. Now I am being deliberately generalistic here, so I'm not saying that I necessarily believe that, but I think that seems to be a perception. What are people getting wrong? What are the nuances?
Elina TeboulYeah. And again, this is because it's not about gender, then we can say that there are certain strengths and values and principles associated with the feminine archetype. And those are things around intuition, about creativity, really this right-brain intelligence that taps into the present moment that's very relational. Relational is a key element of this. It's not individualistic the way that the left brain, the way that the masculine is. And it also, for me, a lot about connection to nature. So I think that we have kind of perverted our relationship with nature where we think we are somehow above it, we're supposed to control it. But the feminine is certainly deeply associated with the archetype of nature consciousness, of climate consciousness. And the masculine is, again, this is the archetype of the masculine, and it is associated with linear, rational, logical thought, with the left brain, with more individualistic as opposed to relational, With a more kind of dominant, and if you think about the yin and yang, the yang energy, which is more about action and orientation, and the yin energy is more about receptivity and actually, and darkness and reflection. And so yes, these are stereotypes, but actually these stereotypes have been in our collective consciousness for generations, and there's nothing wrong with them. They're actually quite helpful.
Elina TeboulYeah.
Elina TeboulAnd instead of saying that some of these are weak and soft and we don't need them, I think the point here is to recognize that we can't just bifurcate our humanity into 2 separate parts and say that somehow they're related to our gender. We can say that the feminine is softer and we can say that it's more intuitive and it's more creative and it's relational. And those are all great qualities. And it doesn't matter about what our gender is. It's really the balance of both and society and culture. And we have predominantly overindustrialized indexed on the masculine, which creates deep disconnection for us on an individual level, but also a lot of societal problems. And so bringing in these feminine intelligence qualities is really about naming them, yes, and also understanding that there's nothing wrong with them. We don't have to say that somehow we're going to be soft and weak if we tap into them.
Elina TeboulInteresting. I have a question about the term feminine intelligence in just one second, but there seems to be a resurgence quite recently of these like tech bros in Silicon Valley, you know, the ones who are, who are on jet skis holding beers and the American flag and all that kind of stuff. That seems an odd thing to have happened because traditionally Silicon Valley always felt more like it was more the nerds like me, the coders, the introverts.
Elina TeboulYeah.
Elina TeboulIs this something to do with feminine energy? Are they trying to rebel against it? What's going on there?
Elina TeboulI think it's true that the pendulum always swings one way and then overindexes and swings the other way. What's happened, I think, in the last decade or more is there has been a lot of emphasis on women and on women's progress and making sure that women are included in the conversation, that women have a seat at the table. And I think what's happened is that we've forgotten about the men in some ways, about the young boys especially. I recently heard Professor Scott Galloway say something very interesting in this regard. He acknowledged his privilege as a white male, and he said that he's now in his 50s, and so he very much grew up with that privilege, and he understands a lot of his success today is based on that. But what's really unfair is that 15, 16, 17, 18-year-old boys today are the ones who are paying for that privilege. And so this resurgence of the tech bros and really leaning into this masculinity, I think this is saying we've been forgotten and there's been so much emphasis on other cultural groups, on other genders, and What about us? And so this is them trying to take back their power, which is, I think, fully understood. You know, I have 2 children. I have a daughter, she's 9, and I have a son, he's 11. And I remember when Annabelle, my daughter, and I, we went to go see the new Barbie movie. I don't know if you saw it, if you remember it. It was probably about 2 years ago now. And we had a lovely time and we laughed about girl power and in It was nice, but the whole time I was thinking, I really hope my son never sees this movie because it villainized men so much. It doesn't have to be that women's power and women's progress is at the expense of men. And that's why I always say that feminine intelligence is not about feminism. It's about bringing everyone together and about understanding that if we're creative enough, we're brave enough, we're open enough, Then we can grow a bigger pie and make sure that everyone is included and that certain groups are not forgotten. Because what happens when certain groups are forgotten is, and then the pendulum swings aggressively in the other direction, and then we end up in the situation that we're in today where the narratives around masculinity are really shifting. And you have people like Andrew Tate who's becoming really popular, and I understand why he's popular. He's popular because he's speaking to an audience that has been forgotten and that has been villainized. And instead of telling them that they're responsible for other people's pain, if we bring them into the conversation and we help them to be the best versions of themselves, then they don't have to turn violent and they don't have to turn aggressive. And I think this is the idea for me of feminine intelligence is always approach with compassion and curiosity. And it's very easy to villainize someone. It's much harder to say, wait a minute, where is this coming from? Can I understand this? Can I unpack this? Can I approach with love the underlying root cause of this situation so that it actually doesn't happen? That's how you take the power away from someone like an Andrew Tate, is you approach those boys with love and compassion and opportunity instead of saying that they're responsible for the demise of women and other groups. And so I'm not surprised by what I'm seeing in the political climate because again, Again, it's not just about leveling the playing field and giving women the rights that they fully deserve, but it's also about including everyone in the conversation.
Elina TeboulIt appears that you've very, very specifically and deliberately chosen the term feminine intelligence. Out of interest, were there any other working titles for your book?
Elina TeboulThis was so difficult. For the entire 2 years of writing this book and then the next year of the publication process, I kept thinking I was gonna find a different title. I played with hidden intelligence and it was going to be this, haha, it's actually the feminine. Once you open the book, it's gonna be hidden. And it felt really inauthentic for me to do that. And it felt that one of the biggest reasons for wanting to write this book is to give back the power to the feminine. And I was just so intrigued by the idea that So many people had such emotional reactions to this word. It was almost radioactive. And especially I would interview very senior, successful women, and I would say, I wanna write this book about this idea of feminine intelligence. And more often than not, the response was one of fear. And actually kind of people would freeze and say, I don't believe that we should be using this language. I don't believe that we want to lean into this. I don't wanna be associated with the feminine. And so I realized that one of the hardest things for someone who considers themselves to be a feminist and who wants to propel women to be the best, most powerful versions of themselves is actually to accept and encourage and lean into their femininity. And I think that that's so interesting because for me, really, Hmm. If feminism is going to work and if women are going to be the most successful versions of themselves, they should be able to be the most authentic and true versions of themselves and not have to wear a mask and pretend to be something else in order to find that outward kind of metrics of success. And I struggled with this so much myself, and a lot of the women that I would work with in a coaching capacity as well, very senior, successful, brilliant women, And they were respected and admired from the work perspective, but they were suffering inside and they didn't want to admit it. They didn't want to admit that they wanted to tap into this softer part of themselves because they thought as soon as they did and they would show vulnerability, they would be eaten alive in their workplaces and they wouldn't be taken seriously anymore. And what that creates is disconnection, disassociation, and a lack of purpose and joy on the individual front. And then when you have a leader like that, it's a multiplier effect. And so all of the people that work for this person, they feel it. It really impacts their relational intelligence. And on a societal level, again, when we can't tap into those aspects of ourselves, then I think we're less courageous. To advocate for, again, like certain culture in our workplaces, for climate consciousness in our workplaces, because we think that those are not the topics that directly address the bottom line. And so they're not serious at work anymore. And I'm sure that people listening to this have had that experience that there was something that deep inside you really cared about. And you found that maybe it was difficult to bring it up in the boardroom because other people wouldn't listen, wouldn't take you seriously, and it would somehow impact your reputation in a negative way that you were the soft one and the idealistic one and the naive one because you were advocating for something that was really important to you. And so you stayed silent. And so I think that us tapping into these these parts of ourselves also very importantly gives us the courage to fight for what society really needs.
Elina TeboulThere are 2 leaders who are sitting there in the same room as us. One of them has— uses feminine intelligence, one of them does not. Can you tell me the main differences I'd see if I watched them manage or lead people?
Elina TeboulThe, one of the first things is listening. So listening again is about receptiveness. It's about curiosity. It's about compassion. It's really trying to understand what's going on for the other person. What is that person's subjective reality? The person that's not tapping into their feminine intelligence is probably either driven by power or fear, and they are the ones that are insisting that something must be done in a certain way without an acknowledgement that there is no sort of objective truth that we are all living our subjective experiences and that we're all coming together. And what's good for one individual might conflict with what's good for the collective. And they're not thinking about the collective. They're not thinking relationally, and they're not listening to find out what actually can create, instead of a zero-sum game, a situation where everybody thrives. And listening is We all think we're good listeners, but it's fascinating how terrible people are at this. And I've led so many different kind of like group coach, team coaching experiences where I simply would do active listening exercises and I would pair people together and I would say, okay, well, one person has to speak for 3 minutes about what their biggest challenge is or what's driving them at work or what are they seeing. The other person has to listen and then just play back, play back what they heard. This is so incredibly hard for people. It's amazing actually how hard it is for people to just say, what I think I hear you saying is, because if they don't agree with what you said, then they want to resist and they wanna say, that's wrong, that's not true. Your perspective, it's wrong, it doesn't matter. And you don't need to do that. You just need to come with curiosity and wonder and say, well, what is this person's subjective reality and how can I understand it and unpack it so that we can really reach an agreement in a situation where we're all thriving? And if this person is feeling this way, then maybe other people in the organization are feeling the same way. And so there is an element of empathy and compassion. Which it's actually really difficult when you feel maybe attacked in the active listening exercise. If someone says, well, it's all your fault because you do all of these things, then the organization is falling apart. And instead of saying like, how dare you say that to me? I'm saying, what I want you to do is say, what I think I hear you saying is that the organization is suffering because of these behaviors that you see me exhibiting. I'm not necessarily agreeing with it, but I'm curious, like, oh, this person thinks that these behaviors, that I'm doing this, or I'm doing this intentionally. And for me, this is where it gets really interesting, is that we're so stuck in our own ego that doing this kind of active listening exercises is really, really difficult, and people resist a lot. And I think this is one of the, like, first telltale signs of being able to approach with feminine intelligence and curiosity and compassion and receptivity and intuition, just to say, like, when this person says something, where does that land on me? How do I feel about this?
Al ElliottAfter this short break, we'll rejoin Al and Elina as they talk about psychedelics. Yes, like LSD. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Elina TeboulWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Al ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Elina TeboulAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast network.
Al ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Elina TeboulSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of Politics, business, and brands as well.
Al ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing, but there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Elina TeboulIt can.
Al ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Elina TeboulI am. Go and listen to Lunch Break wherever you get your podcasts.
Al ElliottBut come back.
Elina TeboulYeah, come Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Al ElliottWelcome back. Let's rejoin Al and Elina.
Elina TeboulAnd that's another important aspect actually, is that very often you'll see just metrics, numbers, and the way we make decisions is based on the Excel spreadsheet. Like, this makes sense for our organization because this is what the numbers say. And I think the person tapping into feminine intelligence is comfortable to say, I see the numbers, I understand the truth of these numbers, but it doesn't show the full picture. It doesn't show certain repercussions of how people will feel when this is implemented. And actually, there are dangers in just trusting this raw data and not tapping into a different perspective. And again, This idea of coming into a boardroom and say, I can't do this deal because I just, I feel this feels wrong. My intuition tells me, even though my intuition is telling me something very different than what the numbers say, but I'd love for people to be able to express that way of being in conversations in business, which I still think it's unwelcome and it feels vulnerable, but there's so much power in that. And there's so much because we're, the way that we're wired is we're feeling beings who think, we're not thinking beings who feel, right? Because just by our, the way that our brain works is that we have our prefrontal cortex, which evolved much later. And so we have to be able to trust those emotions and that intuition and not just focus strictly on the linear logical arguments. So those are some ways that I would see the difference in actual behaviors for leaders.
Elina TeboulI have a pushback question for you. Some of the greatest companies on earth were built by people, and using your words, people who craved power, huge egos, massive amount of fear. We're talking Bezos, we're talking Steve Jobs. You know, you got Gordon Gekko as the character. You know, Jordan Belfort, some of the greatest companies in the world were built on the fact that generally white men feared a lot of things and had a huge ego. So if we, if we take the feminine intelligence and absorb it into our life and our leadership style, do we run the risk of not being able to build something big and powerful and great?
Elina TeboulNo, absolutely not. And there are, there are examples both ways. I think certainly there are examples of profitable companies that have been built Without feminine intelligence. Now, I wonder whether the world itself is better off. Like, is the world better off with Amazon? So now we import a lot of things that we don't need. We spend the money, we work too much to have more money so that we could buy a lot of useless things that hurts the environment and put people in debt and put small businesses out of business because now people just buy things on Amazon.
Elina TeboulHmm.
Elina TeboulSo like if Amazon didn't exist, would the world be better off? Maybe, but it is a very successful company that allows one person to, you know, make a gold statue of his wife and attach it to his yacht. And that's nice, I guess, for them. But I think that we confuse the idea of growth and profit with success. And this is another question that I have is just because a company is profitable, what does that mean for the rest of the world? Is this actually a good thing? And it's interesting because Amazon ended up buying Whole Foods and John Mackey, he has his own narrative on this, but he's an example, I think, of someone who at least initially had a very feminine approach to business. And he recently came out with his book and he's one of the co-founders of the Conscious Capitalism movement. And so he started Whole Foods based on the idea that he wanted love to be at the center of the business and not profits. And he made a lot of decisions in his business that were in line with that, with the way that he hired, with the with making sure that food was not seen as a commodity, but really as a life force. And so he was one of the very first people to bring the healthy eating revolution to the US, but more importantly, the way that he thought about stakeholders. Before this, it was very clear that the sole purpose of a business was to bring returns to shareholders. And that was the reason why business existed. It was for shareholder returns. And he was one of the first people to question that and to say that this idea of conscious capitalism is a multi-stakeholder approach where you think about your suppliers, where you think about your clients, where you think about your employees, where you think about the environment. And I think it really paid off. I mean, we've seen how successful Whole Foods became. And, but even in its early days, there's a really lovely story that he often tells where the very first store that they had in Austin, Texas, they didn't have flood insurance because why would you in Austin, Texas? But there was actually a flood and it destroyed that first store. And he thought that that's it, the business was over. They didn't have enough money to have rebuilt, but actually the entire community showed up, the employees, the customers.
Elina TeboulYeah.
Elina TeboulJust people from around Austin, they came and they put the store back. They came with mops and buckets and they cleaned and they really helped to bring it back to life. And I think that shows that a business could be something that supports the community and that gives back and that doesn't just put profits at the center, and it could still be very successful. So I take it that there are some Some companies run by the Gordon Gekkos of the world, but eventually a lot of them fall apart too, right? So Jack Welch, that's one example, which one of the most admired leaders, and I think the first celebrity CEO who was on the COVID of every magazine, and he was known to slash every single year, 10% of the workforce would get fired. And so, he was known as Neuron Jack. And yes, that really helped the profits, the bottom line, because you just get rid of people. But can you imagine working in a culture like that where you know that one bad year means that your job is on the line or somebody that you know, and like 10% is getting slashed? And I think that people don't really wanna give their all working for a leader like that. And if it's the age-old question of, do you wanna be loved or feared?
Elina TeboulYeah.
Elina TeboulAnd the leaders who are loved and who inspire others are going to, I think, get the best results out of people.
Elina TeboulSo you just mentioned there Gordon Gekko, which obviously is a fictional character, but we also have seen Jordan Belfort in Wolf of Wall Street, and we've had a glimpse into what that world is like. Do you think that in that sort of environment of investment banking, you could ever have a leader who was embracing feminine intelligence?
Elina TeboulIt's really difficult. And actually, there's a funny nuance about this whole Gordon Gekko character that I'll say, and then I'll answer your question. But I think it's kind of interesting that when that movie was made, we all think that he was just actually protecting his own interests. But at the time, it was the directors of the company who were actually channeling all the profits to themselves.
Elina TeboulHmm.
Elina TeboulAnd so it was the era of the CEOs and the management that were actually acting in a way that was all for their own interests. And in that, when Gordon Gekko makes that famous speech about greed is good and all of that stuff, it's actually, yes, it's to protect shareholder interests, but it was to protect them against management mishandling. the company. And so, my first career was in corporate law. And so, actually, I think this is really interesting where a lot of the laws come around protecting shareholder interest. It comes from originally when the management of the company were basically just stealing the assets of organizations. So, there was a reason why we needed to protect shareholder interests. from that management mishandling, but then it went really wrong. And on the question of, can certain corporate cultures really be conscious? And I think it's tricky. I'll share one example. So when I first started in psychology, I was coaching a lot of lawyers because that was my initial profession. So I worked in big law in New York, which is a very similar culture, like an investment bank, for example. And I ended up teaching a course in Fordham Law School in New York, which was called Positive Lawyering, that I convinced Fordham Law that they should have. And Positive Lawyering was about bringing positive psychology principles to legal practice. And I tried to give certain tools to the law students to prepare them for when they go into legal practice around self-management and mindfulness and purpose and about how they can look at their career as a calling and just really give them the tools that they could, I think, thrive in that kind of environment. And although I do think I was able to arm them with a toolkit that was very helpful, there was always that part of me that felt slightly concerned that, okay, I'm giving them these tools, but they're still stepping into the lion's den. They're still stepping into this culture where no matter how self-aware and emotionally intelligent and articulate, and they know how to set their boundaries and they know how to do their breathwork, but how are they going to be, especially junior people in these kinds of organizations? And what I come away with today and my perspective on this today is that it's up to senior leadership.
Al ElliottYeah.
Elina TeboulI think it's very, very difficult to be a junior person without the autonomy, without the influence to come into an organization and be able to change that culture. So if you're stepping into it, then the most you could do is have tools around self-mastery in order to protect yourself. But imagine again, the sort of feminine is the relational and it's about the collective. So why couldn't all the partners of a law firm or of an investment bank or any organization come together and decide, let's lead in a different way. Let us create an organization that works differently, that we want to work in, that is a representation of our values and who we want to be in the world. And that will trickle down to the next generation and what they bring in. So I do think And why I wrote a book that's really geared to leaders is what their decisions are and what their behaviors are impacts the entire organization. And then I would say even moreover, again, because the feminine is so relational and collective and looks at the bigger picture, I do think there's an opportunity for organizations to come together. So, it's very difficult to say we are going to Act in, you know, we don't wanna compete on the inputs of our, you know, glass that come from China that are poorly made, that are made in a way that's really bad for the environment. We don't want to, you know, make the cheapest version of this, but then we can't compete, right? So, a lot of times organizations say, I'd like to have a really conscious culture, but then all the customers will go somewhere else. And there are examples of FMCG companies coming together that was led by Unilever and Paul Polman, who's one of the most, I think, conscious examples of conscious leaders where FMCG companies came together and said that there are certain standards that we're not going to compete on. And if Unilever did that on their own, then maybe they wouldn't be competitive anymore. But they took that relational approach and they said, no, let's make a pact. Let's bring the other organizations into the conversation because We have a collective responsibility. So for all of these, when we think about something is impossible in an organization or in the world, I always kind of remind people that all of these organizations and the idea of business and capitalism, this is an invention of the human imagination. It's not real. It's not the rules of physics. Capitalism doesn't exist in the world. We made it up. Like money is a figment of our imagination, right? Like all the way that we work in all of these organizations, we came up with it. So how could it be impossible to come up with a different way? And so if we're lacking creativity and courage, then we should tap into how do we do that? How do we ignite creativity and courage? But it's always possible because the world that we imagined Is, and we created because we imagined, then we can certainly create a new world.
Elina TeboulIf someone doesn't have feminine intelligence, does that mean that they're a bad leader?
Elina TeboulGreat question. I think if someone doesn't have feminine intelligence, it might depend on the people they have around them, right? Like there's so many aspects of what is a good leader and a bad leader. And I never think in absolutes because I don't think the world works in absolutes. And that person could lead in the best way that they could without creativity, without intuition, with their ego, but maybe they're surrounded by people who take what they were able to, their ideas, and implement them in a conscious way. Because if I'm a leader, I probably would want to be the best version of myself and the best leader that I can be. And I would want to inspire and motivate people, and I would want to create a world which is better than if my organization wasn't in it. And why not tap into every possible avenue of improving oneself for both the impact that you can make, but also for yourself, right? Like, I think feminine intelligence is also quite selfish. Because again, it's this idea of finding wholeness and joy and not having to wear a mask. Maybe you could be a successful business leader, but you could be a very sad and dissociated one, and that's not a great place to be.
Elina TeboulI've got written down here psychedelics and underlined 3 times. Now, in my head, that's like mushrooms and people sitting in the woods. Like imagining all kinds of things. What have I got wrong about that?
Elina TeboulSo when I write about psychedelics, it's from the perspective of psychedelic-assisted therapy. So as I said, because I'm a psychologist, I've actually done a very long, extensive training as a psychedelic-assisted therapist. Unfortunately, I can't practice that because where I live, it's not legal. And I would say, I hope yet, but there are places where it's legal, which is really great. But psychedelic-assisted therapy is more than the sensorial experience of taking psychedelics, because what it does is you have an initial preparation period where you work with your psychologist, with your guide on what you want to get out of this experience. And so it's very intentional. It's not just having a good time, but you try to figure out what do I want from this experience? And you prepare yourself, and you're also in a safe therapeutic container. So if you take psychedelics at a party, then a lot of the benefits that I write about in my book, they probably won't actually happen. But if you take psychedelics in a safe, intentional therapeutic container, then you're able to tap into self-awareness, empathy, creativity, and connection with nature are sort of the 4 buckets that I write about because They particularly impact leadership. And again, when you work with a psychedelic therapist, a lot of the insights that happen on the day of the psychedelic experience, you then integrate. And the integration period is what happens after. So it could be the next day, it could be for weeks thereafter, it could be for months thereafter. So you have accountability. You don't just have a beautiful experience, but then you think about how is this relevant in my life and my leadership?
Al ElliottYeah.
Elina TeboulAnd you think about certain behaviors and strategies that you can actually implement in order for the insights that you had to take shape. Now, self-awareness and empathy is the bedrock of leadership because it's really understanding yourself as the instrument, understanding how you show up, how you view the world, how your subjective experience impact the way that you relate to others, the way that you see the truth of certain situations. And this was very important for me because I realized that a lot of my clients would come to me and they would always bring whatever business topic they would bring because I'm sort of the executive coaching and leadership advisory. So it wasn't supposed to be about the personal, but very often you dig just a layer or 2 under, and you realize that most of these issues are quite personal and relational. And very soon you end up understanding that the way that they understand the world and the way they understand themselves and show up as leaders is rooted in childhood experiences. And what's fascinating is that there's so much that we block in our conscious awareness, And it could take a decade of talk therapy to potentially, and I say potentially because very often you just never get there, to unlock some of those reasons of why, of what was your childhood like and why do you show up the way that you do? And what psychedelics allow is that decade of therapy in basically 12 hours where you are able to understand yourself, you're able to unlock parts of yourself that are absolutely instrumental for you to be consciously aware of. There's a really beautiful, again, Carl Jung, who's the master of this, but quote that's when everything is, I'm gonna butcher the quote exactly, but it's basically like when it's in your subconscious and not in your conscious awareness, then you let things direct your life and you call it fate. And so you think that your life has to be a certain way and your leadership has to be a certain way, and you don't have agency to make changes. But as soon as you can understand your subconscious and the way that you were molded as a young person and how all of those experiences create who you are today, then you have a lot more flexibility. Now, what happens from a neuroscience perspective when you take psychedelics, whether it's mushrooms, whether it's LSD is that you have new neural pathways. And so this allows for you to actually have a lot more flexibility of mind, be a lot more open-minded, be able to see from different perspectives, be a lot more comfortable with uncertainty. It's basically like if you imagine that your brain is like a city and the psychedelics are kind of city planners and they come in and they put traffic lights and they build roads and all of a sudden, Instead of just your 5-square-mile radius, your entire brain is lit up, and we see this in neuroimaging studies. And so, you're able to say, oh, I can get in my car and I could take the train all the way over there, because you have so much more capacity, so much more access. And so, this is incredibly powerful to access this neuroplasticity for leaders to be able to, you know, we're in such an uncertain world with technology changes and with AI and everything that's happening that we need to be comfortable with that. And psychedelics really allow for so much more mastery over our capacities. Now, the other piece is what I mentioned, connection to nature. So there is so many studies that particularly plant medicines, so this is mushrooms or ayahuasca or peyote, all these different plant medicines, they help us to connect with nature. They help us to see that we are not separate from nature, but that we are part of nature.
Al ElliottYeah.
Elina TeboulAnd what that allows for us to do is not lead our organizations in a way that says, oh, I have to check this box on this ESG thing, and actually it's quite costly and annoying, and I don't want to do this. And we almost have an animosity, especially these days. We hear this a lot, right? That we are moving away from climate impact in a lot of organizations because it was quite tedious and expensive. And I understand that, but when you connect with psychedelics, you are in a very, you're instead of intellectually understanding that you'd like to do something for the environment, it becomes a felt emotional experience. And actually share in my book, my own experience that led me to join an organization called the Earth Law Center and really bring impact to the climate space myself. Because you understand, you feel nature in a completely different way, and you want to protect it from a felt, emotional, authentic place, as opposed to from something that the organization tells you you should do. So there are a lot of fascinating, a lot of leaders who are now openly talking about their psychedelic use and how it specifically impacts their leadership. And we talked about John Mackey, and he's actually Actually one of them in his book that came out last year, he talked about his early experiences with MDMA, 'cause MDMA actually used to be legal in the US back before it became illegal in the '80s. But when he was young, it was legal. And so those experiences that he had made him feel that love is everything and he wants to put love at the center of his business. And he, actually makes that connection in his book. And there are, I share other people in the book who've done the same. And so I think this is a new way of looking at psychedelics. Right now we have this psychedelic renaissance where there's a lot of conversations strictly about mental health and for veterans and for situations around trauma and PTSD. But what I offer is taking the conversation further to expand our consciousness through self-awareness and through awareness of others and really through an awareness of, you know, like a spiritual awareness that is bigger than us. And so I'm quite passionate about the, I would say, safe and intentional use with a very skilled guide and preferably in a jurisdiction where it's legal.
Elina TeboulWow. That is much more of a full answer than I expected. We need to do a part 2 of this because we've not touched on conscious capitalism. I want to learn more about this. However, One last question. If someone read your book, what's the one thing you want them to get out? One thing you want them to learn?
Elina TeboulGreat, great question. It starts with self. So in my book, there's a lot of desire for impact, positive impact for our world, for future generations, for our children, for our climate. And sometimes I think that those kinds of narratives and desires could almost seem Like too much for people to, like, how can one person fix all of the world's problems? And the truth is that it all starts with self, because when you go on this journey of inner work and self-exploration, if you think about Maslow's hierarchy, then those basic needs are first. And only once you master yourself and you find that authenticity, you find that courage, you find that joy, you find wholeness, individuation, completeness, then you can move up the hierarchy of needs and you start thinking about things like the collective and what can you contribute to the world. And so if contributing to the world doesn't seem authentic to you now, that's perfectly okay. It doesn't for the mass majority of people, and that's fine. But the feminine intelligence aspect is so important on an individual level. And which is why I included questions at the end of every chapter, and it's kind of a coaching guide. So when you, if you read the book, then please take a pen and actually answer the questions. Don't just think about them in your head, but use it as an opportunity to look inside of yourself and start this inner work journey where you're then able to lift yourself up. And only then can you start thinking broader.
Elina TeboulFabulous. Elina, this has been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for your time. People want to find out more, where's— what should they do? Buy the book from Amazon? Would they go to your website?
Elina TeboulYes, you can get the book online anywhere where you get your books. So Amazon, Barnes Noble, Waterstones, even indie bookstores, wherever you like to go. And you can check me out on LinkedIn or Instagram or on my website. And it's elinataboul.com.
Al ElliottThat was Elina Teboul, executive coach, former Wall Street lawyer, and author of Feminine Intelligence. It was a really great reminder that leadership isn't about dominance or detachment. It's about wholeness and the traits we've traditionally called feminine— things like intuition, emotional presence, and relational awareness. They're not soft, they're essential, and maybe even we don't need to gender them. She also made a strong case that ignoring these qualities doesn't just hurt people, it can hurt profits too. Disconnected leaders breed disconnected cultures, and disconnected cultures don't perform. We also touched on the rise of psychological patriarchy, the danger of glorifying ego-driven leadership, and how psychedelics— yes, really— might offer surprising insights for founders and executives. If there's one thing Elina wants us to take away, it's this: redefining power isn't weakness, it's the only way forward. You can find Feminine Intelligence wherever you get your books, or head over to elinataboul.com. I will leave a link to that in the show notes. And if you've enjoyed this conversation, hit follow, tell a friend, connect with us over on LinkedIn. Let's be honest, it's probably me. But we do both love hearing from you. We'll be back on Tuesday for This Week in Work. Al will be back with new truths, and again next Thursday with another brilliant guest interview. We will see you then.
Elina TeboulBye.