Episode 200 · 27 May 2025 · 56:09
Rule-benders, quiet quitting and the DEI dilemma. PLUS! Is happiness overrated? With Julian Hayes II
Rule-benders, quiet quitting and the DEI dilemma. PLUS! Is happiness overrated? With Julian Hayes II
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Happy staff = better business (Best Places to Work 2025)
news roundup#employee-engagement#best-places-to-work#business-success
The $40 loan that went viral
news roundup#viral-story#employee-benefits#workplace-culture
Do we trust rule-benders more than rule-followers?
news roundup#trust#workplace-behavior#psychology
Hot Take: Julian Hayes II on why happy employees are overrated
Workplace Surgery: The DEI overload dilemma
workplace surgery#diversity-equity-inclusion#workplace-advice#hr
Workplace Surgery: First-time manager assertiveness
workplace surgery#first-time-manager#assertiveness#management
Workplace Surgery: The 'I've stopped caring' slump
workplace surgery#employee-burnout#disengagement#motivation
Show notes
Episode 200: Rule-benders, Quiet Quitting & the DEI Dilemma. PLUS! Is Happiness Overrated? — with Julian Hayes II
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) celebrate 200 episodes with a bumper edition: why we trust rule-benders more than rule-followers, whether a $40 loan is a loyalty play or a red flag, and why "happy" might be the wrong goal for your workplace. Plus, in the Workplace Surgery: the DEI overload dilemma, first-time manager nerves, and the "I've stopped caring" slump.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Happy staff = better business? The Sunday Times' Best Places to Work 2025 report is out — and the winners aren't the ones with the flashiest perks. The data points to trust, ownership, and listening as the real drivers. One standout: CGIIT UK, where 96% of staff hold shares in the company — a genuine stake in success. Source →
2. The $40 loan that went viral A Boston moving company boss posted on X after an employee asked for a $40 loan. The internet had opinions — some said never lend to staff, others called it a loyalty-building move. Al and Leanne unpack the real question: what does the employee actually need, and how do you build trust without becoming a bank? Source →
3. Rule-benders vs. rule-followers New research from the British Psychological Society suggests we trust rule-benders more than strict rule-followers — and they might make the most appealing leaders. Al shares a story from his own rule-bending past (involving a bottle of Lambrini) to illustrate why bending the rules can signal entrepreneurial thinking. Source →
🔥 Hot Take: Happiness Is the Wrong Goal
Julian Hayes II joins the show with a provocative challenge: happy employees are overrated — and happiness is a terrible metric. Real engagement comes from meaning, challenge, and shared purpose, not just feeling good in the moment. He argues leaders should be selling the dream, not just the perks — and that fulfilment, not happiness, is what keeps people (and businesses) thriving.
More from Julian Hayes II:
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/julianhayesii
- Website: executivehealth.io
- Podcast: Executive Health and Life
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- The DEI overload dilemma: "How do I push back when I'm constantly asked to be the 'diverse' voice in interviews — even at the expense of my own work?"
- First-time manager nerves: "How do I become more assertive without losing my friendly style?"
- The 'I've stopped caring' slump: "Is it okay to check out at work when you're not valued — or am I just giving up too easily?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up in This Week in Work.
Leanne ElliottWhen it comes to leaders, do we actually prefer rebels or rule followers? This week we're looking at the psychology of trust and why some people earn it by working around the rules, not following them.
Al ElliottPlus, what would you do if an employee asked to borrow some money? A Boston business owner went viral this week after sharing how one of his team members asked for $40. Some commenters said never lend money to staff, others say it's a sign of trust. So what is the right move for a healthy workplace?
Leanne ElliottPlus, in the Workplace Surgery, is it fair to expect diverse employees to do extra DEI work just because of who they are? One listener says they're tired of being the token voice and asks, when does inclusion start to feel like exploitation?
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Power Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. We'll be getting right into today's episode after this very quick word from our sponsors.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets. Which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Julian Hayes IINice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. Episode 200-ly.
Leanne ElliottI know, isn't it exciting?
Al ElliottThat's impressive. And 200, and I think that's the first time you've let me say that you're brought to you by the, uh, by, by the business HubSpot. See, I do kind of say it.
Leanne ElliottBecause you usually get it wrong.
Al ElliottWell, thank you for giving me the opportunity.
Leanne ElliottYou're very welcome. You're all welcome. 200 episodes, Al. What have you learned about podcasting, work life in general, in 200 episodes?
Al ElliottIt's relentless. We do really enjoy it, but I think, I think I love doing it and I love editing it and pushing it, but sometimes like you go, Oh man, we've got 2 more to do this week. But no, I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change it for the world. What about you, love?
Leanne ElliottUm, I, I agree. It's, it's a job in itself, isn't it? I think I've learned that whilst it's not about external validation, it certainly is about community. So I love it when we get reviews, when we get people comment on the show, what they've enjoyed. We start getting more comments on Spotify now. Even the comments that don't agree with us, that didn't like the episode but want to tell us why. That's really good feedback. We're not about, you know, censorship of opposing views. We wanna present the truths and the lies and, and help you come to some kind of conclusion. So thank you for all your support over the last 200 episodes.
Al ElliottTalking of loving things, Leanne, I think it's your favourite time of the week now.
Leanne ElliottIt is.
Al ElliottIt's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.
Al ElliottJingle being cued. Leanne, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottGroundbreaking news, Al.
Al ElliottOh God, is this breaking? Do you know what really annoys me when you see breaking news and it's not breaking? It's like, oh, frick off, will ya? Go on, sorry, what's your breaking news, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottWell, apparently happy staff are good for business.
Al ElliottOkay, yeah, that doesn't sound right. No, no, no, no, no, no, we're on.
Leanne ElliottI mean, it does seem a little basic, I think, if you're a regular listener to this show, but that is indeed the groundbreaking news from the Sunday Times this week. Apparently happier staff make for more productive businesses. So this comes off the back of the Best Places to Work 2025 report, And while I do jest, it is of course good to see a list like this being backed up by actual data. So to kind of give you an overview, this is the UK's biggest employee engagement survey covering thousands of workers in organizations of every size. And what it shows is that when people feel valued, listened to, and supported, the payoff isn't in morale alone, it's in performance too. Some of the best examples from this year's list include Iceland, where they've seen a 500% rise in head office job applications since being recognized last year, thanks to real investment in apprenticeship— apprenticeships and second chance hiring. CGI— this is hard for me to say, Al. I'm gonna try. It's my third time. CGIIT. I think it's a double I that's throwing me off.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottCGIIT UK. Well, 96% of their staff hold shares in the company, which shows a genuine stake in success and a culture that values contribution. And we have Awin— is that how we say it? Arwin? Awin? Uh, which has moved into a 4-day working week while still paying people for 5, doing it the right way, making a very clear statement about work-life balance. So the survey, How's It All Work, it looks at 6 key areas: reward and recognition, pride, information sharing, empowerment, wellbeing, and job satisfaction. And what was clear from the list is that being a best place to work isn't about perks. It's about giving people a voice. Creating trust and following through on promises. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottLovely. Yeah, I mean, what's gonna be interesting is our hot take. Let's find out if Julian, our hot take, actually agrees with this. But there is nuance here, and I think we're not just saying we want people to be happy. You're talking about their reward and recognition, which are 2 of the, of the fundamentals of the RX7. And so yeah, I can see, I can see why just by blanket saying We need happy staff. That's not enough. But this, I'm pleased to see this has got into a little bit more of the depth of it, and it's actually sort of breaking it apart and going, we don't just want everyone to walk around with a stupid smile on their face. Because let's be honest, work is not worth just— I alluded to before, love our podcast, sometimes don't look forward to actually sitting down and creating them. So yeah, I think that's a very smart way to delineate or pick apart the idea of a happy member of staff.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think it's all, it's all just about semantics, isn't it? And I think this is where we can get kind of sometimes bogged down in discussion, but also very important discussion. Um, so is it about happy staff or is it about engaged staff? It's probably more about engaged staff because that's what we know from the, the psychology. Engaged employees are more loyal, they take fewer sick days, and they attract more talent. And what I particularly liked about the article that, that dove into the companies was actually showing what an organisation needs to do in practical terms to improve employee engagement. And that's not perks, it's things like trust and recognition, all that kind of stuff. Um, yeah, the fact that we saw Iceland with a 500% jump in head office applications after making the list last year— I mean, if you don't believe us when we've said before that these types of things will absolutely improve your competitiveness in terms of talent acquisition, things like potentially a 4-day work week, flexibility, trust, great recognition— I mean, that alone just as one stat is pretty impressive, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, and going way back, I mean, we're going back to episodes of like 20 or We had Jill from Vitality, um, which sponsored the happiest workplaces in the UK. Uh, and a lot of the top 10, 20 had something similar to this, which wasn't— I mean, all right, some of them were massive companies, but what's cool about this award is it breaks it down into huge companies like, uh, Novo something, Nordisk, I think, which has got like half a million people, down to like really small companies. So there's loads to learn. So yeah, if you're interested in this kind of thing, then go back and search. I'll put— we'll put a link in the show notes. I can't remember exactly which episode it was.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, but it was really interesting to hear back from that. And also we got Christian Van Stolt, who was the guy behind the survey. He's come on as well. And also Donna Burgess as well. She worked for one of the companies that won the Happiest Workplace.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I'm being intentional with it, you know, it's, it's, and they make the, the point in this article, it is about listening and acting on that feedback. And that's what employee engagement is. It starts with insights. Um, so whilst this will give you some really cool ideas, it's not necessarily kind of a a copy and paste, but some of the initiatives that these companies are doing that I thought were quite cool: an organisation called Childbase gives staff up to 20 extra days off and big childcare discounts. They're a group of childcare facilities, so it makes sense that they're offering perks that are going to be related to the type of employees they're likely to have. Coke created new leadership workshops because staff said they wanted more development, and an organisation called Involve paid for driving lessons Which is quite cool for some, some of the staff, particularly if you've got an RTO mandate. That's a nice little thing there, isn't it?
Al ElliottYes, it is. Yes, it is. Shame they don't pay for the car, the fuel, and the insurance as well.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Yes, it is. But interesting learning. I will leave a full link to the full list in the show notes. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottTalking of giving employees things, there was this post on Twitter by a guy called Joey Salvin. He runs a moving company in Boston. That's USA. So Boston, Massachusetts, not Boston, Lincolnshire, if you're from the north of England.
Leanne ElliottI should like to go to Boston.
Al ElliottI should like to go to Boston. HubSpot, you are based in Boston.
Leanne ElliottIf only we knew somebody. Yeah.
Al ElliottGet us across to HubSpot. Oh, and if you like Boston and Bostonians, we've got another guy from Boston on this Thursday, Jeff. You're gonna like it. Anyway, so, so this guy, let's go back to, I've forgotten his name already. Uh, Joey Salvin. So he is on Twitter and he basically posted a screenshot of a message from an employee that read, hi Joey, I was hoping you would send me $40 on Cash App. Please, I'm low on funds. Now, just in case you've not come across Cash App, which seems to be a very, very American thing. I don't think we get much over here. I don't know whether the kids use it in the UK or not. Essentially, it's like Venmo or PayPal or something like that. So this employee is saying, I want $40, please send it to me. Now, Joey asked the Twitterverse what they thought would be— did I tell you this on Twitter? I'm not sure I did. Anyway, it's on Twitter, it was on X. We'll leave a link in the show notes. So Joey asked the Twitterverse what they would do in this situation, and the responses I thought were pretty interesting. My initial instinct as someone who has, uh, managed people before as an employer was, nope, not gonna happen. But some of the replies sort of changed my mind a little bit. There's a guy called Tanner, Tanner Mullen. Um, we get the best names on here. He suggested establishing a $500 employee IOC where they can borrow money and pay it back, no interest. Uh, I'm guessing, I don't know what IOC, do you know what IOC stands for?
Julian Hayes IINo.
Al ElliottI'm, I, I'm guessing it's some kind of like credit system or something with them, like a, You know, free, free credit system. So if they borrow $500 and then they completely max out, then that's your excuse for saying no.
Leanne ElliottNow the— Is it LOC, a line of credit?
Al ElliottOh, it could be line of credit. It could be line of credit. Aren't you clever?
Julian Hayes IIAren't you clever?
Leanne ElliottIt might not be that. It might be something else.
Al ElliottBut LOC does sound like a line of credit. Now the, of course, the downside of that is it means you're putting, if you've got 20 employees, you're putting like $10,000 into a programme. And I dunno, it seems like quite a big risk, particularly for You know, a smallish company. Perhaps if you are Coke, then fair enough, but I don't know. Another guy called Connor Grossi or Groc— Grocchi, um, he said, tell him no and see how he responds. If it's respectful and positive, I would consider slipping him a cash bonus next time you see him. If it's impulsive and negative, that tells you all you need to know. Now, this was my favorite reply. For $40, you're basically buying Of buying the way to find out all you need to know about this guy. And finally, the sign guy said, if he's been good the last 2 months and shows up and has good attitude, then yes, of course. This was at 10 AM. Now, this is the other thing which this guy said. I forgot his name, the sign guy. He said, of course, this was at 10 AM he sent this. So it'll be pretty easy to find a $40 task for this guy to knock out that you've been avoiding or needed to get done. that you can pay him $40 cash for. So he saves face and you pay for something needing to be done. I really like this. I thought that was a, there was some really interesting, there was the obvious stuff you get on Twitter, like saying no, what an idiot. And oh my God, I've been in need. And yes, you, you're an employee, you've got all the money, you know, all that stuff. We just put that, sweep that bullshit aside. But recently, funny enough, actually, Leanne, do you remember recently someone we know, not really a friend, but someone who I regularly buy stuff from?
Leanne ElliottYou're gonna throw shade at people we know again.
Al ElliottNo, I'm not. No, I'm not.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI'm not telling you.
Leanne ElliottSomebody asked us for a loan.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. Someone we know asked us for a loan. Now, this is someone who's kind of a friend, but also is someone who I buy services from. I'm being deliberately vague just in case this person's listening. Um, and they asked for a loan. So instead of saying, I said no, I said, I don't lend money, uh, to friends, but I did suggest paying him a year's worth of the services upfront, which he then declined, which I found very, very strange. Anyway, that's by the by. So a lot of other people in the comments were asking if this is a good employee or not. The thinking was, I think, if they're a good employee, then lend it, it's worth it. If he's mediocre or bad, then don't. That is kind of interesting because should we be responding differently to this kind of request from good employees versus bad employees? Is that fair? Lee, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottMy first thought is, why, why on earth are you putting this very private request from an employee on Twitter?
Al ElliottBecause they want, because they want clout, they want followers.
Leanne ElliottYeah, of course, just uncool for one. And you know what it is, right? People are always quick to answer like the what. Someone's asked for money, what should you do about it? Not one of those examples that you said say, have you thought about why this person is asking for the money? Are they all right? Something going on? Are they in trouble? They've got a parking ticket that they can't pay? Are their finances in the gutter? And because if their financial well-being is really, really bad, that's absolutely going to affect how they show up to work, it's going to affect them performance, their ability to concentrate, their productivity. It's going to impact so much. So my first— the first thing I want to know is why do you need the $40? What's caused this cash shortage? Is it that I pay you every month that it might be more useful for me to pay you every week? Is it that you're in a ton of debt that you're never going to get out of? I'd be more inclined to think about what is the root cause of this, because that's what's going to build loyalty and trust with an employee, not slipping them 40 quid, because that, that is a very potentially short-term fix to a much bigger problem that's going to reoccur. And what's it— what are they going to do then? Ask for $100? Ask for $200? Where does that stop? And that puts you in even more awkward position. So I think my first thought would be figure out why this person is, is asking this question. In terms of like the line of credits and other stuff, yeah, I have heard of that. Organizations do that in terms of employee loans. Can be effective. Um, for various scenarios potentially. If you're doing that though, you have to look at organisation-wide. You can't make these kind of policies or decisions just on one person, even in a small business. It breeds mistrust, ambiguity, um, and really causes, um, yeah, and we call it organisational justice troubles with, with that. Um, so that's my thought. Why put it on socials? Why don't you actually be human, ask this person if they're okay?
Al ElliottAnd 3, if you're going to look at policy, it has I think in defence of Joey, I have a feeling that this is something which is, um, he has potentially been asked something similar and they've just written out the, the message and, and sent it on there. So I, I don't even know whether it necessarily happened, whether it's like a, you know, it did happen in another company. I don't know. But just in defence, let's take the best part of it because it might be, you're right. If, if he's just essentially taken a screenshot, that's really bad. That's really, really bad.
Julian Hayes IIYeah.
Al ElliottThere is a guy on Twitter called Gas Biz Guy, um, and he always seems to be like the wise old uncle of the internet. I always like listening or looking at what he's, what he's written because he's always got really good— and basically what he does is I think he buys big gas, either gas stations, i.e., petrol stations, or he's involved in the supply of gas as in petrol. Um, he's, uh, and I suspect the man has got more than $40. That's what I'm thinking. But his suggestion was kind of quippy, but in my opinion, really decent response.
Leanne ElliottQuippy? I've never heard you use that word before.
Al ElliottQuippy.
Leanne ElliottQuippy.
Al ElliottIt's, it's quip-like.
Leanne ElliottNo, I understand what it means. I've just never heard you say it before. Quippy. Go on, let's hear this quippy response.
Al ElliottIt was quippy.
Leanne ElliottIt was quippy. Sure it was. Let's hear it.
Al ElliottHe said, why aren't you just saying to this guy, I made a deal with the bank, they won't move furniture and I won't loan money? 'Cause the company moves furniture. And I thought that was kind of a quippy way of doing it. Perhaps a little bit. I don't know whether that just makes light of it or perhaps that, I don't know. The other side of the coin is, is could be the way to gain the unwavering trust and loyalty of an employee for $40. Because if you did give 'em the $40, then, then you're shaking your head.
Julian Hayes IIIt's not.
Al ElliottIt's not.
Leanne ElliottThe way to get the unwavering trust and loyalty of an employee is to understand what the root problem is and help them with that. 40 quid ain't gonna fix it.
Al ElliottThere you go. So to summarise, sorry, don't listen to people on the internet, don't listen to me, listen to Leanne. Talking of Leanne—
Leanne ElliottNo, if you want unwavering trust and loyalty, 40 quid ain't gonna do it. There'll be other perks you can get from this person, but sorry, I'm sorry, the psychologist in me just won't allow that.
Al ElliottI like to feel like I said there's what Alistair wants, but you should have jumped on Twitter and gone, I'm a psychologist, And this is what you should do, because I think people, a lot of people out there weren't qualified to answer this question, which makes you beg the question, why was it on the internet in the first place?
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure the type of people on Twitter give a shit about what I have to say, truth be told. Excuse my language.
Al ElliottOff Twitter, back onto the mainstream press. What have you seen?
Leanne ElliottWell, keeping it on trust really, but rather than trusting your employees, trusting your leaders. Do you trust leaders, Al, who respect the rules, or do you prefer the ones that are willing to Yes. You, you could be part of, you need to be studied, um, different, separately.
Al ElliottI've done so much dodgy stuff in the past. Not for people, but, uh, they always say behind every fortune, um, every, every fortune is a lie. And about 40 of them. Anyway, let's not get into that because this is, this is on tape and, uh, and the, the, the authorities may be notified. Carry on, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottSo do we write rule, do we like rule keepers or rule breakers? That was, that was a great question. The question of a new study by Astrid Hohman— Astrid, what a lovely name— and colleagues at the University of Amsterdam, published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology Applied. They, um, suggest that the answer is neither. It isn't about breaking them, it isn't about keeping them, it's about bending the rules. And that's what we like in leaders— leaders that bend the rules. So here's what they did. They created scenarios for people to judge. So one of these scenarios was an employee called James, who was at a car company facing a cash flow crisis. He had 3 options: he could stick to the rules and raise money by crowdfunding, he could break the rules and sell cars illegally, or he could bend the rules by selling memberships that included a free car— a legal gray area but not outright breaking the law. They then asked participants, who would you trust to lead? Who seemed most capable and most respected. And the results were fairly surprising. Rule followers were seen as solid, dependable, but they didn't really stand out as leaders. Rule breakers, seen as bold but a bit too aggressive and more dominant than genuine trust. And the rule benders, they came out on top. They were seen as the most respected, resourceful, and most likely to be admired by their team. So when the research team dug deeper in a second experiment, they used a similar setup but placed the employee in political roles with cooperative or competitive environments. So in cooperative settings, so things like building alliances or forming a government, rule abiders were still trusted, but rule benders were a very close second because people admired their ability to find workarounds without tearing up the rule books and basically still getting stuff done. In competitive settings, when it's about winning debates or outperforming rivals, rule-benders were the top choice, even above rule-followers. Um, and the rule-breakers were on the bottom in both of those scenarios. So the difference the researchers found, it's all about dominance versus prestige. Rule-breakers were dominant, they'll bulldoze through, but it doesn't always earn respect. Rule-benders have that edge of resourcefulness, they're clever enough to navigate the system, and people feel good about Following them. Al's thoughts?
Al ElliottWell, story time. Here's the time. Here's— let me tell you about the time that, uh, that I, uh, that I bent the rules way back about 23 years ago. I started a company, uh, it was selling alcohol, um, after hours in the UK to students. So they want 4 cans of lager, they'll get— we'll come around with 4 cans of lager. So I got a license to sell it, which in the UK you need a license, a liquor license, they call it in, in, um, Um, in, in America. Um, and, but the law said I still couldn't do it because I could only sell during permitted hours, which is between sort of like 10:00 AM and 10:00 PM. That's when I could sell it individually. Otherwise I couldn't sell it or I'd sell it wholesale. Well, this is what I did. First of all, I created a wholesale, an order for every single possible person that, uh, that could, that could ring up. Um, so if someone said, oh, this person's ordered something, I can say, oh, there's the order. That didn't really work. And in fact, it did work so badly that the court took— the police took my license off me. So I was there, I was selling alcohol with no license to do it, but I could still— anyone can sell alcohol. This is back in the day. Anyone could sell alcohol in wholesale quantities, which is basically 24 cans of lager. But nobody wants 24 cans of lager at 1 o'clock in the morning. So what I found was there's a bit in the law which says essentially if you, you can combine lager and also something called Perry, which is pear wine, which is grim, but really cheap. So what we did was we said, you can order whatever you want, but you have to also buy one bottle of this, what's called Lambrini. It was a 5-litre bottle of Lambrini. It was horrible. Cost about 4 quid to buy. You had to buy that because that fulfilled us and made us, made us wholesale again. But if you already had one of those in your house from a previous order, you could swap it over. So essentially we'd give you a refund for it.
Leanne ElliottSo basically people had a membership fee of a bottle of Lambrini.
Al ElliottYes, exactly. And as long as they had it, we'd give you the money back on that, on that bottle and take it away and give you the new one. Of course we didn't. We just basically went, there's your bottle of Lambrini, there's your 4 quid back. All right, keep it for the next order. And that was it. So we played and, and we had a lot of fun with it. But ultimately there's a reason why I'm not running that business anymore is because I went bankrupt for about £103,000. Uh, which was partly due to the fact that the law changed and anyone could sell alcohol after hours. So like the, you know, the big supermarkets did, and my, my market just dried up. But definitely that was my first dilly— dallying— dalliance. That's the word. First dalliance into rule bending and also rule breaking. And I think that, I think the people— I had about 20 people work for me at the time, and they all thought it was really fun. And in fact, my solicitor, or at the time, who used to come with me to the courts, uh, he used to really enjoy when it comes to the courts. courts Yeah. because he'd be like, oh, right, okay. There was a copper there who was, who was, who was like dead against me. He didn't want to be shut down. Um, and he used to come along and we used to come up with different ways, creative ways of getting around it. And then the one time when they took my license away, he came in and says, do you know what, Dave's really unhappy. This is the end. You're gonna have your license taken away. But anyway, he enjoyed it too. So anyway, that was the end of my story. Really doesn't really help. It doesn't really support the—
Leanne ElliottI think it does. I think it does. I think rule bending, it is, you Exactly. That isn't— it's entrepreneurial, it's innovative. It's pushing back against maybe too rigid systems that don't need to be that rigid. And they didn't because fundamentally that business went out of business because they changed the licensing rules because they realised they were too rigid. So you were only fighting the rigidity that was then eradicated. Look at me with the words today. Frigidity eradicated. I've had— I haven't even had coffee today.
Al ElliottVery quippy.
Leanne ElliottOh, I'm quippy. Thank you.
Al ElliottAnyway, right, talking of rule-breaking, we are late But after this very, very short break, we are gonna be talking about the hot take. We've got a really interesting one, which is gonna link into one of Leanne's articles. So we will see you in just a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work. And we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York Indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work, and we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is; it's such it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioral science in your marketing, but there's also just some really interesting episodes. It'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Julian Hayes IIIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. It is time for our Hot Take, those honest expert perspectives that make us rethink What we know about the world of work. Today we are talking about happiness. It's a word you'll find in almost every HR strategy and company values. Happiness is held up as the ultimate goal in workplaces, the sign that everything is working as it should. But is this really the right thing to chase, or have we been missing something deeper all along?
Al ElliottYeah, as we heard at the beginning and we alluded to, happy employees are supposedly the secret of success. If people are happy, everything else is gonna fall into place. But it's fair to ask, are we confusing happiness with real wellbeing? And are we focusing on the right things?
Leanne ElliottAnd that is exactly what our guest today wants to challenge. Julian Hayes II has spent years working with leaders and teams on how to build real lasting performance, not just short-term smiles or surface-level perks. He believes that happiness isn't enough, and it's the wrong thing to focus on. if we're serious about wellbeing, because happiness is fleeting. It comes and goes. What really matters, Julian says, is helping people find meaning and challenge in their work. That's what drives the kind of energy, engagement, and resilience that actually lasts. And that's what too many workplaces are missing right now. So let's go and hear Julian's hot take.
Julian Hayes IIHappy employees are overrated.
Al ElliottSorry, say that again, because this sounds like the opposite to what everyone's saying.
Julian Hayes IIYeah, happy employees are overrated. And it's a terrible metric.
Al ElliottSo if we don't want happy employees, what do we want?
Julian Hayes IIYou want fulfilled employees, employees that have meaning. And oftentimes when we think about happiness, we confuse it with engagement and we use those interchangeably, but they're 2 distinct things. Happiness is more of a fleeting emotion that is pretty much like the market at times. It's very volatile. It's like the weather, it comes and goes. Whereas engagement is going to be something a little more sticky.
Al ElliottHow would I tell if I was a leader? And I'm looking around at my team. What clues would there be that they are happy, but perhaps not engaged or fulfilled and fully engaged? Is there anything I can use to tell that?
Julian Hayes IIYeah, a lot of times when you think about happiness is, um, I think we'd look at surface-level things we think that they want. So maybe we can throw more money at them, right? Or maybe we can make them a little more comfortable in the office, maybe give them some surface-level perks. But I always go back to a sports analogy. For those of us that played sports, we don't remember the games where you won by 30 points. We remember the games that you won at the buzzer. We remember the games that you had to hold on for dear life because that really made us have to really grow and overcome an obstacle. And that's something that we can hold on throughout the years. And it's the same thing at work. The meaningful challenges, when you're getting stretched, It might suck in the short term, but this is what really gives you that fulfillment down the road and something that you can hold onto. And then that's what you have proud on. Because happiness, a lot of times these things, they make you feel good in the moment. I've seen this with friends. So I'm mid-30s. And so I had friends who took a job, awesome salary, and that's what they focus on. Nothing else about it is really that Good to them. So it's almost like this hollow feeling that I have money, I have this, but there's something else missing. And that's because when we think about wellbeing and wellness, we oftentimes think about it as a physical thing, which is true, but there's so many other pillars. There's a mental, there's an emotional, and there's a spiritual. And spiritual doesn't have to mean religion. It has to mean there's a deeper sense because we spend a lot of our times working, whether you're working at home, whether you're working in an office, whether you have your own business, Work and personal life are increasingly becoming a symbiotic thing.
Al ElliottSo for a leader, a business owner, a manager, I suppose the easy thing to do is just to throw a load of pizzas at the team on a Friday and go, sorry, you work so hard. It's a cliché. Or, all right, I've got you an extra 2 grand a year as a pay rise, but that's not what we should be doing, is it?
Julian Hayes IINo, you can't do that. I think one thing is for the leader, He has to sell his team the dream. And what I mean by selling yourself, your team the dream is like, let them know why this is important. What's the connection? What's the specific importance of their role to the bigger picture of the company? And then once you do that, I would give them some autonomy so you can challenge them. Let them be on their own. I think people call it more of an intrapreneur now, right? Whereas people within the People within the workplace can still be a little entrepreneurial, make the role their own. Because I believe I wrote about it a long time ago in a Forbes article that especially with millennials and especially with Gen Z even more, they want to have more purpose and meaning in there. What better way to give purpose and meaning and wellbeing than to have someone take the role and sort of make it their own? But the leader has to first and foremost sell his team the dream and connect them. And let them know why this is important. And they have to do it more than lip service. They can't just do lip service because a lot of times people write these, um, these statements on their website or what we believe in, or they'll go on LinkedIn and, and give these, um, very— I'll keep it clean— boring posts about their team and culture. And we can sniff that. We can smell it. We can, we can smell that through the screen. That, ah, this is a load of crap.
Al ElliottThink as a manager or a leader, the pushback that I might be giving you is going, yeah, but if I just let them go off and give them a lot more freedom to do whatever they want, then are they A, going to do anything or just play games all day, or B, are they going to really screw something up?
Julian Hayes IIWell, I think that's the good part, right? Because then you get to really separate who's actually there to work and who's actually there just to collect a paycheck. You're always going to have some dead weight, right? You always got to shed some things off, right? We all, during the, you know, we all have skin that sometimes needs to come off. And that's just some of those people. And not to be harsh, but I mean, it's, it's a business. You're there to make money. You're there to win against your competition. So some people just may not make the team down the road. And we just have to look at it that way, but it's better to learn the people who aren't going to make the team now. Than to have them just tagging along 10, 12, 18 months down the line.
Al ElliottIf you are in an organization, you work, you have an organization where it's quite difficult to determine meaning from what your everyday job is. Is there a way to do that?
Julian Hayes IIIn that kind of situation, I would still challenge them that, um, there's something that you can find out of there. Even if it's not the job itself, it's what does the job bring you? So what is this job bringing me? You know, a while ago I had an interesting conversation with a guy who exited his company for millions of dollars. And he did the dream that we always wanted to do. I'm just going to the beach, have some drinks and just enjoy the sun. And he was like, well, after a week, that got really boring. Just to do that over and over. What was the point of all this? Right?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Julian Hayes IIAnd so he started to have the itch again. And lo and behold, he's back doing some type of work. It's not the startup life, but he's coaching other entrepreneurs now to do that. So he's finding a way to still contribute and have meaning because that's what we have. And that's what really makes us feel good is to have meaning. Even when we go through something that sucks, if we come out of it, we can find some meaning and that really gives us that lasting happiness.
Al ElliottThat was Julian Hayes II, a really cool guy. Lots of things going on. Definitely go and check out his profile. Also, he's, if you're watching on YouTube. He has a specific pair of glasses that we went on in the interview to talk about. We didn't have time to put in here. So, uh, yeah, interesting guy. Really interesting guy. Not a fan of the Beatles like me. Thinks they're overrated. Interesting.
Leanne ElliottAnyway. Now that's a hot take.
Al ElliottThat is a— should've led with that, Jules. Definitely should've led with that. Anyway, so, uh, first of all, thing that— what I really actually talked about was this happiness versus engagement. Now, happiness is like the weather, you know, one minute you're up, next minute you're down. Um, but engagement is the thing that lasts. So even if you're having a bad day at work, it's what's gonna keep you going back to work. Because you feel like it matters. Now, Leanne sees this all the time. People might be a bit stressed or even tired, but they're still showing up and doing the work because they are invested in what they're doing. So they may not necessarily be happy on any given day, but they're invested and they know exactly why they're doing what they're doing.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think Julian's right that happy's become this catch-all term, and what we're actually talking about is engagement, fulfilment, meaningful work. And this all ties back to The research as well, there's a really interesting article recently that talked about kind of the basic stuff that we all need at work. And that was very simply autonomy, having control of our work, confidence, feeling like we're competent, we're confident enough in the work that we do, and the relationships that we hold. And all 3 of those things together had a significant impact on both motivation and wellbeing. So, it does really go to show that what makes us stick around isn't the perks, it isn't even happiness, it's all a bit deeper than that.
Al ElliottYeah. And tell you what else doesn't make us stick around, which we think does, and that's money. So people think that, oh, well, you've got a £250,000 a year job. Well, you are gonna be happy. Now we've, I think we've probably all seen people who take a job for the cash and then realize it's not enough or it's just horrible. Like we had someone, uh, 2 or 3 weeks back who was talking about, in fact, Nick Huber, the Sweaty Startup guy. He was talking about one of his friends who was a partner in a law firm, uh, like half a million pound a year he was earning, but he couldn't have time off for, to, to, to, for the birth of his kid. Yeah. So we quit. So, I mean, I think Leanne said this before, once you hit a decent wage, more money is not gonna make you happier. It's about whether you are doing something that feels right for you. And I think that's a reminder for leaders too. You know, fair pay is essential, but it's not the end of the story.
Leanne ElliottAnd as we said, linking it back to the, the story about the best workplaces, it isn't about perks. They're a bit of a distraction, perks. It's nice stuff to have, but it doesn't replace giving people a reason to really care about what They're doing, having a role where they feel they're contributing to that mission delivery. This purpose, this fulfillment, this meaningful work is what keeps us going, builds our resilience, um, even when, when things are, are a bit hard. So, I think, yes, it's not about free pizzas, ping pong tables. We've known that for a little while. Um, but yes, I think if we look at real reason and purpose, purpose-fulfilling work, then wellbeing is just gonna be better for everybody.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Talking about fulfilling work, this is my most fulfilling part of the week.
Leanne ElliottBefore we go again, I'm sorry.
Al ElliottOh, sorry.
Leanne ElliottIf you want to find out more about Julian, and of course you do, he's a huge writer, contributed to things like Forbes and all that kind of stuff as well. Um, I'll leave links in the show notes. Go and follow him wherever it is you tend to follow people.
Al ElliottBut not in real life. That'd be a bit weird.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd go and tell him what you think, what you think of his opinion of the Beatles. That would be interesting anyway. Or, or tell me. I look forward to your letters. Right. I think I was in the middle of saying some kind of clever little segue into the Workplace Surgery. It's ruined. It's ruined because I messed it up. So guys, Workplace Surgery is here. This is where I ask Leanne your questions. They are questions around the workplace, around work for managers, leaders, HR professionals, anything to do with work. I will be happy to ask, happy to ask Leanne it. If you've got your own question, check the show notes, send it over. I will read it out to Leanne. Leanne, are you ready for question number 1?
Leanne ElliottI'm ready.
Al ElliottSo question number 1, is it fair to ask diverse employees to do extra DEI work just because of who they are? So this person writes, I'm at a huge company and it says it's committed to diversity and inclusion, but lately I'm feeling a little bit stuck. I'm in a technical role and I found myself being pulled into almost every single interview my team does, not because of my expertise, but because I'm— oh no, because I'm one of the only visibly diverse people in my department. My company wants more diverse representation in interviews and hiring panels, which I do understand in principle, but it's not my job and it's getting in the way of the work I was actually hired to do. Recently, I even got called in from a vacation day just to sit on an interview panel. When I raised this with HR, they said it's still a requirement and that I should talk to my manager if I'm feeling overwhelmed. But to me, it just feels unfair that I'm being singled out because I'm not a white man. I want to support diversity efforts, but I also don't want to look like I'm being used as a tick box exercise. Leigh, how do you even start to push back on something like this?
Leanne ElliottThis is so common. This is so common. I think it's called, is it called the victim deficit? Am I remembering that right?
Julian Hayes IISure.
Leanne ElliottBasically means that we, as, as a species, we tend to put the, um, the emphasis on the minority to fix a problem that really is impacting them. So, as a woman, it's my job to fix equality for women in the workplace. As a person of colour, it's your, you know, job to fix racism. Yeah, that's kind of how it works, and it's really counterintuitive actually, because we need the majority to really drive change. So, it's very, very common. I think, how do you start to push back on this? There was a phrase in your question. I'd basically build your case around this: I understand it's important. I understand why you'd want me there, but it's distracting me from what you hired me to do and making it harder for me to do my job. That's kind of the headline message of the conversation you want to have with your manager. And I think I think yeah HR is is always going to say go to your manager first quite rightly really. So I would put I would put some some little evidence together. I would first have a think about whether you want to be involved with work like this. Do you enjoy DI work? There are better ways to do it. It's not just about having representatives. It's how are you advertising that job to get a more diverse candidate flow through? It's about the actual assessments that you include in your recruitment process to make sure they're not discriminatory in any way. So, this is a whole world in terms of discrimination and bias in recruitment. If that's of interest to you, this could be a really interesting opportunity to pivot into that because clearly there's an opportunity within the organisation. If it's really not, then it's about understanding exactly what is your obligation as an employer. As part of the job you were hired to do, go back to your job description. What's in there that could be extended into this world of recruitment? It might say something like, you know, supporting hiring efforts as and when required, etc. So, have a look what's actually in your job description. Decide how much of this you're actually happy to do and support, particularly if you have a voice in how to do this a bit better, so it's not just a tick box exercise.
Julian Hayes IIYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd then show how this extra— these extra responsibilities are meaning that your day job suffers, things that you're not able to get done or to the same timescale or the same quality, potentially. Um, you weren't hired to do this, so it's about finding a boundary that you're comfortable with that is in the best interest of your development without actually undermining exactly what you were hired to do. In terms of calling you in from a vacation day, absolutely unacceptable. That will not happen again, is what you're going to say to your manager. Completely unacceptable. Um, but I think that's my general advice. One, have a think about whether this is a world that you want to be involved in. 2, go back to your job description and see what is in there in terms of supporting these types of efforts. And 3, have a very clear, um, honest conversation with your manager about how you're happy to support this, you see its importance, it's tipping into it far too much, um, and it's distracting from what I'm actually hired to do.
Al ElliottYeah. Great advice. Great advice. I can sort of see why, um, why you're in this position because as a straight white middle-class middle-aged man, I would, I think my instinct would be if I was a leader going, right, we want to get everyone involved in this. We don't want to, we, you know, there's one end of the scale where we go, this is what we are doing. And then there's the other end of the scale where we're going, this is what you have to do.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThere needs to be a consultation sort of in the middle of going, These are our plans to make things more diverse, make it more welcome to minorities. But perhaps you do a one-off or a regular sort of like chat with the person who wrote this and going, what do you think? Is this enough? Are we doing it? Are we going too much? Rather than just, I say, wheeling this person out every single time to go, look how diverse we are, check this out. But yeah, so I think there's There's, there's, there's definitely work to be done there, Leanne. Just take Leanne's advice because, yeah, you are, you are being used here, which is not cool. And take Leanne's advice. But yeah, we'd love to hear how that goes. Anything else in closing, Lee?
Leanne ElliottNope.
Al ElliottCool. So question number 2, how can I learn to be more assertive as a first-time manager? I love questions like this. I recently got promoted to my first management role at a big tech company, and while I'm excited, I'm also a little bit nervous. I'm leading a team of 40 people after years as an individual contributor. Am I right in thinking individual contributor is just someone who basically does the job? They're not a manager. Is that what I see?
Leanne ElliottYeah, they don't have any direct reports or indirect reports. Yeah.
Al ElliottUm, you'd think after 200 episodes I'd know terms like that, wouldn't you? Uh, my director has been really supportive and believes in me. He says I'm technically skilled, good at teaching and coaching, and generally a very strong presence. But he also made it clear I need to work on being more assertive. He told me I can't be too nice. Hold that thought. We'll talk more about that in a minute. Or let the team walk all over me. I know he's right. I tend to avoid conflict, and sometimes I struggle to hold people accountable. I really want to step up and make sure I'm not just liked but respected. So, Leanne, I'd love any advice you can share. How do you learn to be more assertive as a manager? Lee, you've been on both sides of that, and you're also a psychologist, so this should be a good answer.
Leanne ElliottThere's so many little Little bits in here that I want to kind of pull at and pick at, but I'm going to try and remember the ones that, that feel kind of the most important. First of all, congratulations, well done. It sounds like you have some qualities, innate natural qualities, that a fabulous manager has, um, in teams of— in terms of being a great coach, being a great teacher and trainer, um, all of those lovely words used to describe you, um, is wonderful and will serve you very well. This is your first manager role after years of being an individual contributor, and you're managing a team of 40. This would give me a little bit of anxiety if this was my first management job. That's a big old team. I think my first team was like 3 and then went up to there, um, up, up higher. So, I think it's not unreasonable at all, particularly as your manager has given you this feedback, to ask for some kind of training, management development, that type of thing.
Julian Hayes IIYeah.
Leanne ElliottBecause don't be a statistic. We know that 82% of managers are accidental managers, no training, no formal development. Sounds like you might be in this as well. If you can start your management career getting some, some training and some support, coaching, mentorship, whatever it looks like, it's, it's going to benefit you. Um, in terms of being likable, that's one of the greatest assets, particularly as a transformational leader, if you want to drive change and improvement, being likeable is surprisingly effective in the research. It's much more effective than respect. So, I wouldn't worry too much about being too likeable. Likeable is good. And typically, people don't like people they don't respect. Those 2 things usually come. The biggest thing here is not being a people pleaser, not saying yes to anything. And the key one there, you said you've not always been very good at holding people to account. That is something you're going to have to do as a manager. And I think this all comes down to me in terms of maybe an area to start. I don't think it's necessarily about being assertive. I think it's about learning how to have difficult conversations when they need to be had. They can be had in a very supportive way, in a very coaching way, but still a conversation that might feel a little bit awkward. So, I think this is probably an area when you are asking for that training and development to really focus on in terms of of having difficult conversations. I actually saw a post on this recently, actually, from Dr. Hayley Lewis, who has been on the show a couple of times before. She does really great sketchnotes where she'll draw out a theory or some tips around management and leadership and make it really understandable. So, go and follow her because on her website, she actually has books where she's put together sketchnotes. I'm sure there's a sketchnote book on leadership.
Julian Hayes IIYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, but she did one and she shared, um, 6 tips. So it's basically around preparation. Um, so don't kind of go in just randomly to have this conversation. You need to really think about it to the point of practice it. Um, if you are nervous, think about talking to your manager and actually going through the points that you want to cover, um, in that conversation. With any feedback, good, bad, or somewhere in the middle, Be specific. If something isn't working, you need to show what evidence there is and what impact that's having. Um, so bring 1 or 2 examples to that, that conversation. Think about the environment you're in. Um, does it need to be confidential? You don't want to be interrupted. Could it be more of a walk-and-talk meeting where it feels more casual, more of kind of a coaching conversation? It's really about understanding exactly what it is you want to communicate and where's the best environment to do that. Um, the 5th tip that she shared was remembering that silence is really good. Um, it can give a person a chance to reflect on, on what you said and then respond. And this is a really powerful technique that Al and I learned in Samaritans. Often if you just stay silent, somebody will then follow up their own thought without you having to ask another, another question. Um, and finally, and this one won't be difficult for you, is just working with empathy, you know, putting yourself in their shoes and, and really how you'd feel to be on the receiving end of that.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottthat type of, um, feedback. The final thing I would say around not being a people pleaser is if you're making a decision, consultation and transparency are going to be your friends. Asking people what they think, what they do, what red flags they see, what opportunities they see, like a little SWOT analysis almost. Not with every decision you need to make, but with the big ones. And finally, if you've had to make a decision that is maybe against The majority is explaining why that decision had to be made in that moment, how you hope it's gonna help, and how you're gonna track it and monitor that decision to make sure it is having the intended impact. Consultation and transparency are gonna be your friends. It's not always about saying yes, but it is about telling people sometimes why you said no.
Al ElliottYeah, and I'd just probably add from a layperson's point of view, obviously, if this is the first time listening, I'm not the expert, Leanne is, but from a layperson's point of view, a leader is someone who makes, a great leader is someone who makes your job easier. That is, they kind of almost have an umbrella to stop all the, all the crap coming down from above, from senior leadership. They deal with that. And then they all— this analogy is being stretched, but then they almost go in front of you in the forest and chop down trees to get them out your way just so you can actually do your job. Great. The fact that you say you're a good coach is another really, really good big green flag. And the final thing I'll say on this is not advice, but go back to episode, I wanna say about 172, 173, Vincent Sanderson.
Julian Hayes IIYeah.
Al ElliottIt was genuinely a 45-minute masterclass on how to be a new manager, and it goes from nought to 3 months, 3 to 6 months, 6 months onwards. And it tells you exactly, from someone who's an expert in management and also has millions and millions of followers and views on TikTok and across all the socials, tells you exactly how to become the best manager you possibly can be.
Leanne ElliottYeah, definitely go and check out that episode. I will leave a link in the show notes.
Al ElliottYes, she will. Okay, so question number 3, is it normal to stop caring when your company doesn't value you? Oh, hi, Al and Leanne. Oh, hello.
Julian Hayes IIHi, honey.
Al ElliottI don't think anyone's ever said that before. Hi, they've included me. I mean, I'm chuffed to bits. Hi, Al and Leanne. I'm really glad I found the show because I've been feeling stuck and needed a place to ask for advice. I've been working my arse off. Oh, I like this person already. Working my arse off for a company that doesn't seem to care. No pay rise, No appreciation, and I'm the only woman here, which makes it even harder to negotiate for better pay. Honestly, I haven't even tried to push for more, more, more money because I know it just means more work dumped on me. So I've kind of stopped caring. I'm working less, not giving it my best anymore, and honestly just enjoying the bit of freedom that comes with not trying quite so hard. I'm also keeping my eye out for other jobs since I don't think this place will last much longer. Am I being a coward? But not fighting for what I deserve? Or is it okay to take a step back when a company doesn't value you?
Leanne ElliottNo, you're not being a coward, and yes, it is fine to take a step back. I think as well, it's such a funny question actually, coincidentally to come in this episode, unless you planned it that way, um, is that I feel that you've probably answered a lot of your question already just about what we talked about on today's show in terms of great places to work, in terms of what it means to be happy, in terms of what it means when we have fulfilling work. So I think you already got a lot of insights from, from listening to today's episode. What you're, what you're doing is you've disengaged and you're now what the kids are calling quiet quitting, where you're doing the bare minimum. And there will be an element of relief that comes with that. There will be, as you said, those little freedoms that I'm, I'm gonna stop caring So much, and that's particularly common in high achievers. So, I'm guessing you're a high achiever and take your career very seriously, because that's really hard for ambitious people to do, is to take a step back. So, with that in mind, it'll feel like a bit of a relief now. That won't last very long, I'm sorry to say. You might get a couple of months out of it, but it's not going to last because you're not fulfilling what it is that you need as part of your identity as an ambitious, hardworking person. As always, I would say take some time to reflect on why your needs aren't being met, why this work isn't meaningful to you, what recognition would look like. If it's not just about the money, what else is it? Is it development opportunities? All the things that are going wrong in this job that are just causing you to disengage. I'd then make a list of all the things that you enjoy about your job. So, you're not losing sight of actually, this is the type of work I enjoy, or actually, my coworkers are okay. It's just my senior leaders that aren't great.
Julian Hayes IIYeah.
Leanne ElliottReally take the time to understand what it is that you find fulfilling about this role, if there is anything, and what you're not. So, then you can start to try and craft a checklist of what to look for. Now you're starting to look at other jobs or keep an eye out for other opportunities, so you're not going to fall into the same trap again of going into another organisation. The final question I would say to maybe reflect on is, what have you done in terms of asking for these development opportunities, in terms of asking for these pay rises? Are you perhaps also a bit uncomfortable with having these difficult conversations, or can feel like difficult conversations? So, I would reflect on, on that as well. So, again, when you're going to your next job, you know what development opportunities you want and why they're important, how they're going to contribute to your development and the value you can add to an organisation. You're going to be clear on the salary and the benefits and the other perks that you need, because that's what you need to, to run your life so that you can give, you know, everything and your best self to the to the organization. So, I think any time like this, it's all about introspection, taking back that control. If you can't control anything in the environment, it's taking that control back in terms of what you want and what you're looking for next. But in terms of headline question, are you a coward? No. Um, is it okay to step back? Yes. But use that time as an opportunity to, to really reflect on what you want moving into another company so the same doesn't happen again. And for any business owner listening, this is what happens when you don't invest in your people. This is what happens when you don't train them, when you don't give them the resources they need, the recognition that they need. Um, this is, this is what happens. So let this serve as a warning, people. As you will already seen, disengage, quiet quit, we'll leave.
Al ElliottBeautiful. I have no notes, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottThat was perfect.
Al ElliottNot one. Not one.
Leanne ElliottReally? What would you say though of someone who's a bit like, I don't know.
Al ElliottAnd the key thing in there, which I picked up, was this place might not last much longer. Um, and I thought, well, if that is the case, well, I can kind of see from the manager's point of view or the leader's point of view, what's the point? If, if things, if, you know, if we're, if we're heading in on a car that's on fire to a, to a cliff, then why would we make sure everyone's wearing their seatbelts? Do you know what I mean?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Julian Hayes IIYeah.
Leanne ElliottI mean, I guess the only, I guess maybe the slight potential, just tiny little ray of hope. Could be that once you've figured all this out in terms of what you want, that you then go and have this conversation with your manager, with somebody, you know, higher up in the organisation to see if your needs can be met. Maybe, but equally, from what you've said, doesn't sound very likely.
Al ElliottOkay, so that's all for now. Join us next Tuesday for another edition of This Week in Work. As we mentioned before, if you're a superfan or you just want to be involved a bit more, in making these episodes, then we have started a private WhatsApp group. Mentioned last week, I didn't tell you what to do. Just check on the email, check on the show notes for Leanne's email or my email, fire us over an email and just say you're interested in joining and we will ask you some more. And yeah, by the way, did you— not you, Leanne, listener— did you notice a different format for last Thursday's show? Did you like it? Did you hate it? Not necessarily the subject content, because that was kind of heavy, Yeah. But the actual format of it, we started doing something a bit different and we'll be doing it again this week. So let us know. The links to get in touch are in the show notes, or we don't even mind if you publicly find us on LinkedIn and go, we, I hated that episode. The concept of that episode. And if you disagree with that episode, you wouldn't be alone. As Leanne alluded to before, someone disagreed very, very strongly in the comments on Spotify. We're gonna invite that person on and see if they wanna talk. And I suspect they won't.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut if you have an opinion, you could be the next hot take.
Leanne ElliottYou could. So as Al said, if you, if you don't know what we're talking about and you want to check out this new format, listen to last Thursday's episode and this Thursday's episode. This Thursday we'll be asking the question, is kindness at work a display of weakness? Controversial. We're joined by an author and lecturer who has spent thousands of hours looking at the impact of kindness at work. But do nice guys and gals come last? Does kindness always correlate with happiness? We will find out.
Al ElliottYeah. So join us as we explore the truth about kindness in the workplace with the awesome and hilarious and Bostonian Jeff LeBlanc. No, no relation as far as I know.
Leanne ElliottHave we asked?
Al ElliottDo you know what? I didn't ask him. So maybe there, maybe there is, do you know what? That could be the revelation. So we could go, yes, this is Jeff LeBlanc. He's got a very famous brother. You might have heard of him. Although I suspect Jeff would've brought that up in our soundcheck. But anyway, No, Geoff, really lovely guy. Um, some, some quite, quite strong opinions, but also, as you can imagine, as a lecturer, he can see both sides of it. So, uh, yeah, definitely don't you— don't miss that one this Thursday coming.
Leanne ElliottSee you on Thursday.
Al ElliottBye-bye. And I'm— and I'm Al, a business owner. I don't say that.
Leanne ElliottCGIIT UK. Well, they, they—
Al Elliottsorry, fucked that up, didn't you?
Leanne ElliottWelcome back.
Al ElliottWelcome back.