Episode 206 · 17 June 2025 · 56:59
Digital eye-rolls, loud living and Pride Month silence. PLUS! Should we regulate management?
Digital eye-rolls, loud living and Pride Month silence. PLUS! Should we regulate management?
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Intro and News Roundup Kickoff
news roundup#podcast-intro#news#workplace
Digital Incivility: The Passive-Aggressive Problem You're Ignoring
news roundup#digital-incivility#workplace-culture#communication
Loud Living vs Quiet Quitting
news roundup#quiet-quitting#loud-living#engagement
Why Pride Month Feels Different This Year
news roundup#pride-month#diversity#inclusion
Hot Take: Should Management Be a Regulated Profession?
Workplace Surgery: Getting Back into Routine After Time Off
workplace surgery#return-to-work#routine#time-off
Workplace Surgery: Why Is Hiring So Brutal When You're Starting Out?
workplace surgery#hiring#entry-level#job-search
Workplace Surgery: Managing Someone Who Keeps Pushing It
workplace surgery#managing-difficult-employees#boundaries#leadership
Show notes
Digital Eye-Rolls, Loud Living & Pride Month Silence — Plus: Should We Regulate Management?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the rise of "cyber incivility" and why passive-aggressive emojis are quietly eroding remote team trust, why "loud living" might be the antidote to quiet quitting, and why Pride Month feels heavier in 2025. Plus, in the Hot Take: should people management be a regulated profession — like doctors or teachers?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Cyber Incivility: The Passive-Aggressive Problem You're Probably Ignoring Leanne breaks down a new systematic review on "cyber incivility" — the eye-roll emojis, blunt messages, and stony silences that are quietly eroding trust and morale in remote teams. This isn't obvious bullying; it's subtle disrespect — and research shows it's making teams feel sad, not mad. Emotional exhaustion, disengagement, and even physical illness are on the rise. The fix? Set clear digital norms, train for empathy, and create space to clear the air. Source →
2. Loud Living vs Quiet Quitting: A New Kind of Work-Life Balance Forget burnout and vague "busy" blocks. Al unpacks writer Alli Kushner's concept of "loud living," where employees embrace visible, unapologetic boundaries at work. With engagement at just 21% (Gallup), radical honesty might be exactly what we need. Say "school pickup" not "busy," and expand your out-of-office beyond holidays. Source →
3. Pride Feels... Different This Year Leanne reflects on why Pride Month feels heavier in 2025. With major sponsors quietly pulling out and DEI under political pressure, it's no wonder LGBTQ+ employees feel let down. The message? You were only supported when it was easy. Real leadership means showing up — even when it's quiet, even when it's hard. Source →
🔥 Hot Take: Should Management Be a Regulated Profession?
Leanne goes in on the idea that managers — like teachers or doctors — should be formally trained and licensed. She draws on her own experience as a psychologist governed by multiple codes of ethics, and asks the big questions:
- What skills should be mandatory for managers?
- Are great managers born or built?
- And how do we support growing businesses without access to formal pipelines?
Al pushes back on the practicalities — but even he has to admit Microsoft's own data shows good management transforms organisations. Could regulation be the answer to the world's bad boss problem?
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Routine: "Why is it so hard to get back into routine after time off?" — Leanne explains how different types of rest impact recovery, and why lounging around might actually leave you worse off than active breaks.
- Hiring: "Why is hiring so brutal when you're just starting out?" — A new business owner asks why no one is showing up to interviews. We dig into reputation, expectations, and how to shift your early hiring strategy.
- Difficult employees: "How do I manage someone who keeps pushing it?" — A listener's stuck between being too soft or too harsh with a difficult employee. We explore healthy boundaries, documentation, and what to do when your own boss avoids the issue.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
🎧 Coming Up Thursday
Is kindness at work a weakness? We're joined by professor and author Jeff LeBlanc. With thousands of hours researching the science behind kindness, Jeff shares what really happens when you lead with empathy — and whether nice people really do finish last.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottWhat do you do when your team has gone all passive-aggressive, but it's all happening online? From eye-roll emojis to snarky emails, digital communication is changing how conflict shows up at work. So how should leaders handle it?
Al ElliottAnd our hot take this week is from someone you know very, very well, one of the leading psychologists in her field and also the co-host of The Truth, Lies and Work podcast. Yes, it's our very own Leanne for the first time ever. Hot take.
Leanne ElliottAnd in the workplace surgery, what do you do if you're managing somebody difficult? What if they even told you to do the work yourself? We discuss how to balance being a great boss without being taken for a mug.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work.
Leanne ElliottThe award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo let's get into today's episode right after this quick word from our sponsors.
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Leanne ElliottHead to inbound.com/register to see the range of tickets, including VIP options Fancy, fancy, fancy, fancy. Trust us, your future self will thank you for actually investing in learning something useful. Guess what, Al?
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottWe're gonna be there.
Al ElliottNo, we're not. I am.
Leanne ElliottI'm manifesting.
Al ElliottOh, okay. Yeah, we're— yeah, you can come and meet us there. There you go. That's the reason to, to go and book your ticket today. VIP experience will no doubt include us. I'd imagine they'd invite us to the VIP area. So go and visit inbound.com/register to get your ticket today. Welcome back.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottOkay. So, you know, our continuing drama. We're now in Bulgaria. Um, regular listeners know that we live in Herzegovina. We're near, near Mostar. We're now in Bulgaria. We're here for about 8 weeks. It's a beautiful place, but, um, taking our studio on the road has been a little challenging. So if you hear some, maybe a bit of an echo or something, it's just not the— that we're not in our studio is what we're saying.
Leanne ElliottOr a puppy dog in the background.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottWell, yes.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo if you're spending your summer somewhere else, maybe you're working on the road as well, let us know, get in touch. All the links, as always, are in the show notes. But enough of that.
Al ElliottYes, Leanne, enough of that. It is your favourite time of the week. It is. What time is it, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottIt is time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle.
Al ElliottJingle's been beautified. I did remember to bring it. I did.
Leanne ElliottOh, that's good. That's good. You managed to pack it in time.
Al ElliottSo, Leanne, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottI have a new word.
Al ElliottYes, go on.
Leanne ElliottDigital incivility.
Al ElliottDo I have a guess?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottIncivility. Well, you always talk about civility in the workplace and you always say that's basically just being civil, being nice, not being an asshole. So digital incivility would be someone who's being a bit of a knob over digital means. So like Slack or something.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBang on. 10 points. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
Al ElliottExcellent.
Leanne ElliottYou get a prize.
Al ElliottWhat's my prize?
Leanne ElliottI will find some sort of Sweet treat.
Al ElliottI'm gonna get an apple, aren't I?
Leanne ElliottYes, there is an apple actually behind me.
Al ElliottTell me more about this digital incivility.
Leanne ElliottSo yes, digital incivility, it means subtle rudeness or disrespect that happens through digital channels. So things like emails, messages, Slack, video calls, that type of thing. And it goes against the basic norms of mutual respect at work. That's the definition. So we're not talking full-blown bullying. Um, it's the quieter stuff, you know, the stuff you were talking about last week, like the 8 ways to tell someone to do one.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottUm, so it is those things like, as per my last email, um, or just messages being ignored, eye-rolls on Zoom. Um, bet I think was one that we had an example of someone from our YouTube channel, on the YouTube, get in touch with their Gen Z kind of pet peeve. Um, so yes, that is Cyber incivility. So I came across this in a post by occupational psychologist Nicole Williams.
Al ElliottOh, we like Nicole.
Leanne ElliottWe love Nicole. We love Nicole. So she was referencing a new systematic review by Du and Pak, 2025, so hot off the press. Um, and I thought she described it really perfectly. She said it's not the overt stuff, but those little moments that stick with people— silence that feels cold, a message that lands a bit too blunt, video called Body Language That Makes You Second-Guess Yourself. Um, so yeah, she shared this study and it's a really interesting piece of research. So the review looked at 31 studies, the results of all of those, and then drew some conclusions from it and found that cyber incivility is especially common, perhaps unsurprisingly, in remote and hybrid teams. Um, and it's doing real damage. So it's been linked to emotional exhaustion and burnout. Poor motivation and performance, higher staff turnover, and even physical symptoms like sleep disruption and stress-related illness.
Al ElliottI'm right, this is gonna— you're probably gonna kick me, I'm gonna get cancelled for this, but I'm like, if someone just says, as per my last email, and you are suffering from sleep deprivation or stress, I'm like, um, maybe you need to have more important things in your life. I don't know. Teach me, school me, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYou say that, but work is pretty important, and if you're getting it constantly, particularly maybe from somebody who has more authority than you or a more senior position than you, it can start to cause some real anxiety around your own job security, perhaps. Um, but I think what's, what's really striking about the research, and I thought was a really interesting conclusion that they found, is that people don't often feel angry about this digital incivility. They feel sad. I know, um, and I think what, what the researchers pointed out is that that can actually make it harder to spot. Um, if someone's kicking off, then it's fairly easy to, to see that, um, but it is much harder to talk about if somebody's just feeling a little bit sad. Um, it's a bit blue-making to just have some passive-aggressive comments and emojis and reactions from colleagues. Um, so yeah, easy for leaders to miss entirely. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottWell, tell me, is— if, if I sent like, I've sent you, hey, Leanne, I've just done this project. It took me a few hours to do it. I'm really pleased with it, but I'd really love your opinion on it. And you just did a thumbs up. Would that be a digital incivility?
Leanne ElliottI think it all depends on the social norms of the group. So it could be that if you asked me to do that and I did a thumbs up, you'd probably be like, oh, that's just Leanne kind of showing that she's seen the message and she'll get onto it. If you were doing that to maybe a manager or a colleague that you were really hoping to get a a more detailed reaction from them. Maybe I think you mentioned it in terms of some of the, um, generational differences. Sometimes like you'll write a long message and then just get like, okay. Um, it's, it's all just kind of what is kind of agreed and expected within the, within the norm. So perhaps maybe if, if I— you're used to me sending that, of course I'll look at that, um, after lunch, I'll come back to you by 5. That's usually how I reply. And I just did a thumbs up. You might be like, oh. That's a bit— it's that shift in behaviour, isn't it, that normally comes back to, is that change that we're not expected to, can feel as being a bit bruised or a bit alert to something going on.
Al ElliottBecause you could be digitally incivil— no, incivil? Uncivil, that's the word. You could be digitally uncivil without knowing it just by using the wrong emoji.
Leanne ElliottBut the good news is the research should also point out what helps in these scenarios. And I guess some of these are kind of of, um, kind of preemptive you could do beforehand, but also potentially reactive if you're starting to see some digital incivility. So the first one is set clear digital norms. That's what we were kind of saying about things to avoid in terms of email tone, use of emojis, what to avoid. And that might be a really simple thing, just so you know, just not use emojis as much that people might misinterpret. Um, train your team in digital etiquette and emotional awareness. And I think that's a big one, isn't it, where You know, you said this before, you know, people need to get more important things in their life if they're feeling a bit sad because they've just had a bit of a turn on an email. And it's like, yeah, but if that impacts me emotionally, if I take that to heart and that kind of helps me, or it means that I question my competence at work, my self-efficacy, then that can have a real impact on, as we've seen, my mental health. So it's maybe that awareness that it might be no thing to you, But having that emotional awareness that it might be a thing to, to somebody else. Um, and then finally, to make space to check in and clear the air when something lands wrong. And I think that's really important, is just keeping that, that communication open. In the same way, in terms of, am I being a bit too sensitive when you sent that? Probably yes. But having that, having that conversation. Um, yeah, because I think that's the thing, isn't it? These behaviors are digital, but they are still very much behaviors. I mean, neurobehaviors shape workplace culture. So if you don't talk about this stuff, it can fester and start to have an impact. I thought it was really interesting. Thank you again to Nicole for bringing that study to my attention. I will leave a link to her post and the study in the show notes. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottI saw something in Fast Company. Well, actually, to be fair, I saw it on LinkedIn, but the actual article was in Fast Company by Ali Kushner.
Leanne ElliottLook at you, you're on LinkedIn this week, you were on Insta last week.
Al ElliottAre we changing the plan?
Leanne ElliottYou're finally getting into socials.
Al ElliottI'm just old and I just, I'm old and I'm tired and I've seen it all before on Facebook and on MySpace on Bebo, and I'm like, do you know what, I don't need to learn another platform. But anyway, grumps aside, uh, Ali Kushner— that's what I'm talking about, not me, Ali Kushner— Ali Kushner, uh, she's— she wrote an article in Fast Company called Forget Quiet Quitting, Now I Am Living Loud Living. I know.
Leanne ElliottSo I've basically got a new word.
Al ElliottI've got a new word. What do you think loud living means, Lee?
Leanne ElliottUm, I don't— I don't know. I guess doing you unapologetically. And very loudly prioritising life over work.
Al ElliottYeah, exactly. It's the last one. It's pretty much all of those things, but it's mainly the last one. This is what Ali says she lives. So basically her idea is that instead of going, if you, if let's say that someone says, oh, can you get this project done by the end of the day? And you go, well, I've gotta go and pick the kids up. Some people would be like, yeah, no problem. And they think, well, I'm gonna have to work until 11 o'clock at night. Whereas she says, no, set your boundaries. Go, I'm afraid that's not possible. And this is the wording I think she used in the article. That's not possible. Um, and you can say, in fact, I think she says you should say, because I'm picking my kids up. Not, the whole point is not, that's not possible, I can't do it. And the, and she's, she's bringing her sort of her life to work by going, I have other things in place. Uh, thing also, she says, rather than blocking out busy, which we do all the time, really, don't we? But rather than blocking out busy because— That's what I'll tell you in a second. What made me chuckle? Busy. Then put out, put something like going to the dentist because then you're like living life out loud. You're going, I'm going to the dentist. So it's not a question of I can't do it. It's a question of I've got other stuff on. The reason it made me chuckle was that, um, I saw this a little while ago on Twitter and it was something like, um, I only realized today that my, my calendar was public when my boss emailed me and said, um, we, I'd like to meet you today at 3 o'clock, but you've got a diary entry called get a chicken. Is that something that can be moved? Which really made me chuckle and also made me think, does he mean go and get a chicken, a live chicken to go and get eggs, squeeze eggs out of it, or go and buy a roast chicken? I don't know. Anyway, so back to Ali. Basically she's saying, don't hide, don't pretend that you haven't got a life outside work. Just turn off and go, yeah, look, I can do that, but I have to take the kids, or I can't come into work before 9:00 AM any days. Those are my dead, my hard boundaries. Can't come in. Um, but absolutely, I can stay till 6 o'clock on Tuesday, Thursday, and I can perhaps do Saturday morning or something like that. Thoughts, Lee?
Leanne ElliottI enjoy the transparency. I enjoy being upfront that you have other, um, responsibilities that need building into your, your day. I worry that some organizations would use this as a way to discriminate against parents or carers or people with a disability or people with a health condition that need more appointments, that type of thing. Um, but in, in the spirit of this being used for good, yeah, I think it's good. Because I think as well, when you see, when you see someone's just busy, like, oh, they're always busy, they're always this. But if you see it's actually for, for decent, decent reasons, and it's at times of the day that aren't core work hours, or even after work, or— I think it's good. I think any transparency, anything that shows that we can bring ourselves to, to work that whole person, it will help to build relationships. It will help to breed empathy, um, because we're seeing that somebody is, is human. I think often we can forget that with our coworkers, particularly those in, in leadership positions. So I applaud it. I would approach with caution, um, depending on the culture of your organization. I might think there might be some cultures, not healthy cultures, But some cultures that might use that as a way of, of potentially picking people out. But that's just my cynical side speaking.
Al ElliottAnd Ali didn't mention that, I don't think, in the article. And I'm sure that she would if you pushed her further, because Fast Company only give you like 1,000 words or something to talk about. Um, I think if it was left up to me, this is why I can't work in an organization, because I'd be like, okay, right, I'm gonna try each week and see if I could put the more and more ridiculous things in my diary and just see at what point do I get called into HR to go, um, you've said plan a revolution for Tuesday morning at 10 AM and you've actually invited, uh, 3 of our ex-employees. Is that something, uh, is that—
Leanne ElliottThat would be amazing. And actually, you know what, it's humor like that that is actually a really effective way of building relationships. Again, depending on the type of organisation you're working in. Um, but yeah, I'm sure things like that do really well. I'm always kind of remembering things like that. Usually in my experience, it worked really well in, in jobs that have high emotional labour, you know, that are quite dark. I mean, like at Samaritans, yeah, there used to be a lot of that type of chat going around because you need that, that lightness, that levity. Um, so yeah, I don't know, I would enjoy that. In fact, I would very much like you over next week put those things in the diary, and I'll report back next week as to what my favourite one was.
Al ElliottIf I dared, I'd put my diary public online so listeners can go and subscribe to it, but this— the amount of rubbish I put in there, no. I'll often put in there things like, oh, don't forget to put the kettle on, or, um, give the dog its flea jabs, or something like that on a work calendar. So yeah, maybe, maybe I am living out loud. There you go.
Leanne ElliottI think you are.
Al ElliottThat's what I'm doing. I'm living out loud in our organisation of 2 people and 2 hounds. Leanne, what else you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottDo you know what? It's more what I haven't really seen. Um, it's Pride Month, June. I don't know about you, but it feels a bit different this year. It feels like everything's been a bit quieter. I've not seen as much online. I've not seen as much in my newsfeed of organisations kind of, kind of celebrating this. And, and yeah, the only thing I've seen, I've seen a couple of things from organisations that work specifically within diversity. Um, both posts as well saying that it has been quieter, and also some posts from, um, people who are part of the community who are saying they don't really feel safe to celebrate Pride this year.
Al ElliottOh, really?
Leanne ElliottUm, which is, which is really sad, um, worrying. So when I did see this article, it kind of made it all click for me. So this was the Times, it reported, um, that loads of big brands have actually pulled out of sponsoring Pride events, um, in the UK. So we're talking people like Sony, Duracell, Costa, HSBC, Deloitte, massive companies. They've either gone, um, completely in terms of these events, or they're doing something much, much smaller. And what the article actually went on to highlight was that 3 quarters of Pride organisers have said they've lost corporate sponsors in the last year.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne Elliott3 quarters, man.
Al ElliottWow. That's a lot. Sorry, is this, is this because of the cancellation of DEI stuff over the pond?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I, and I think it's still, it's that sentiment breeding here and in the UK as well, isn't it, with reform and Nigel Farage and, and all that BS. Um, so yeah, so we were saying that a quarter of them have lost, um, more than half of their funding. So it's no surprise that these events aren't happening. They're not as visible, so we're not, we're not seeing them on online or on socials. Um, as I said, a big part of this is, is fear, um, especially from global brands who don't want to be targeted by Trump's anti-DI agenda, um, or the tariffs and all that kind of stuff. Um, so there's a growing pressure to stay neutral, and Sophie Wood mentioned this when we spoke to her about trans inclusion a few weeks ago. It's not that organizations have gone hostile, they've just hesitated. They've stopped talking about it, and that's as damaging, um, because the support that, that people are used to feeling and experiencing isn't, isn't there. Um, and with that, what does it feel like for people who are actually in the LGBTQ+ community? Um, well, it says that, um, there was a quote there that said it was like being told, we supported you when it was easy, and now it's not. We're not going to put ourselves in a position where we might, you know, experience some negative backlash, which is kind of so frustrating because that's the point, isn't it? We're supporting minorities who are used to living just their day-to-day life experiencing negative consequences and opinions for no good reason. Um, so for organizations not to have the authenticity to go, no, we'll stand up with you when it's hard It kind of makes you wonder whether they've been in it at all, or whether it has just been for, for good press, for, um, you know, for, yeah, nice stories in the media that makes people think then they're the nice guys when really they don't really care. Um, so yeah, I think, I think if you are there, um, out there and you are seeing this as well, I'm sure you're feeling a bit angry. I'm sure you're feeling a bit disappointed. Um, and I'd love to hear from people in the community about how their organization might be celebrating Pride this year or supporting them during this time? Because yeah, my anecdotal, um, experiences seems to be that things are dialing down massively, and this article in The Times seems to support that as well. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, it's all very sad, isn't it? I think we, um, I mean, I can, I, from a commercial point of view, I can see why particularly large companies would go, oh well, we won't support it this year because we want to see where, where the chips fall or whatever. Um, it is, it is potentially, you know, if they make a decision that there's the wrong decision, then yes, I can see they might be scared of that. I mean, it's not— they shouldn't be, but I can definitely see their point of view. Um, maybe we're going to transition to more of a— let's just— is it grassroots? Is that the right term? Where, like you say, where individual organizations celebrate it and there's no—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo maybe it is that HSBC just threw some money at it. It was just a rounding error at the bottom of their promotion budget and they didn't think about it at all. And so now everyone's like, well, this is not right. Last year was like, as in this year, next year they say last year was a washout, so we'll do something properly within the organisation. It might just promote people or encourage people to do something proper in their organisation, which isn't just for show, isn't just a, oh well, well, of course we'll throw a couple of mil at that and, and, and we ticked our DEI thing. I don't know. I hope I'm looking on the— Yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, fair. It might be that organizations are rediverting funds into initiatives that are more on an individual level, potentially. Um, yeah, that's, that's fair. And, and—
Al ElliottI've got no basis for that.
Leanne ElliottI, I, well, yeah, and I'd hope that'd be the case, but equally, I'm sure these organizations would still be shouting about that if they thought it was publicly a good thing to do. It's, it's really, it's really sad-making, and I think it it brings into question what is going on in the world and how organizations are showing up, because it's this lack of authenticity that particularly millennials and Gen Z won't, won't get on board with. You know, they're going to remember that HSBC dropped this or Deloitte did that. Um, it, it really is. So I think if you are a small business— and again, it's usually small businesses that we don't see this type of Your behavior from, um, because what you might think, oh, it doesn't really matter, they're just not having an event, they're not having a party, so what? It's about more than that. If you've been to a Pride event, it's about much more than that. And even if you want to say it's just a party, it's representation. It's that visibility in the world that is so important. So people who see it who maybe are afraid of being their authentic self, or younger people who don't know how to have that conversation.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou know, just having this representation in the media and TV shows, it's much easier, um, you know, for people to come out now than it was 30 years ago, um, because it's just much more, much more common and people see it and empathise with it. Um, and yeah, TV is actually a really powerful way of doing that. So anyway, if you are a small business, I think it's, it's important to maybe just check in with your people at the moment. Um, see what, what support they might need, how you can, um, you know, help them, um, make Pride a worthwhile month, whether it would be around educational, um, interventions, awareness, just checking in and seeing if, if they're okay. Because I think right now there's going to be a lot of people feeling very scared, very anxious, very let down by politics, by leadership. And as we know, if all these organisations are doing something that is this spineless and this inauthentic, what an amazing opportunity for you to stand up and actually show your values and show your people that you really care.
Al ElliottYeah, well said. Well said. Okay, so we're going to go to a break, but just before we do, a little thought for you. On News Roundup, we tend to be looking for articles, but if you've got something newsworthy going on in your organisation, or perhaps you've done some research and you want us to talk about it, Well, if it's any good, we will absolutely check out the show notes. You can send an email to Leanne, uh, maybe Leanne at Truth, Lies and Work, to be honest, but you can check out the show notes. Um, and, um, yeah, let us know. We might be featuring it next week. So after this very short break, we're gonna be talking to the UK— no, the world's leading psychologist, um, in around workplace culture, um, and her hot take. Yes, it is the amazing Leanne Elliott. See you in just a second. Billion Dollar Moves, hosted by Sarah Chen Spellings, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Leanne ElliottJoin venture capitalist and strategist Sarah Chen Spellings as she asks the hard questions and learns through the triumphs, failures, and hard lessons of the crème de la crème so you too can make billion-dollar moves in venture, in business, and in life.
Al ElliottMaybe start with episode 124, where you're going to hear how industry giants from Canva to YouTube Listen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back. Yes, it's time for our hot take with our very own Leanne Elliott. Um, she's a chartered occupational psychologist. She is a work culture expert. I should be able to say that by now. We've been doing this for about 5 years. Uh, she's also my wife and my co-host, uh, so I'm a little bit biased. But I wanna know, Leanne, first time ever. Are you nervous, by the way, on this Hot Take? Are you nervous? First time we're doing it.
Leanne ElliottUm, do you want me to say yes?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottVery nervous, Al. Very nervous.
Al ElliottI'll take it easy. Don't worry, Leanne. So what grinds your gears, Leanne Elliott?
Leanne ElliottMy hot take. I believe that people management should be a regulated profession.
Al ElliottLike, as in doctors, as in like that sort of regulated.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottYeah. Talk more about that, 'cause that sounds That's good. That genuinely is a hot take. So talk more about that.
Leanne ElliottI am a psychologist. I am governed by at least 3 codes of ethics, 5 if you bring in the fact that I'm also a coach, countless laws. If I do something in an organization or with an individual that is harmful to them psychologically, emotionally, that causes them trauma that causes them stress, mental health challenges, that individual and/or organization has channels to go through, whether it be the British Psychological Society, the HCPC, that they can make a formal complaint. They will get me struck off, and I will never work as a psychologist ever again. As a psychologist, an occupational psychologist, I will never have as much impact on somebody's mental health as their direct line manager. I just can't, because a line manager has so much influence and at times control and power over people's emotion and psychological health. We know from the data that, um, managers have more of an impact on mental health than somebody's therapist. We know that 65% of the variance in employee engagement is down to A line manager. We heard from last week about how serious trauma can be caused by direct line managers and leaders. So it, to me, it seems really strange that we have these people in organizational life with absolute power and control, positive and negative, over somebody's mental wellness, their career, their development. their potential way of living if they lose their job through this person. We have these people in organizational life who aren't trained, who aren't governed, who aren't regulated, who aren't monitored. Um, and I think that is a significant problem in organizational life that we haven't even begun to think about, let alone solve.
Al ElliottSo if we're going to make it so that a manager has to be Like, you know, has to go through this training, has to go through a certification, I'm guessing, that kind of thing. That's going to restrict the number of managers we can quickly spin up. So does that not mean we're going to be stuck with fewer managers and that's going to cause big problems for organizations who want to grow quickly?
Leanne ElliottThere will be a transition period where it'd be painful, of course, but ultimately, no, I think we'll be left with fewer bad managers. I think we'll that process alone will identify the people who really want to manage people, not just get a pay bump.
Al ElliottMm.
Leanne ElliottI think that process will also train people up on what it means to be a manager and make sure that they don't accidentally or unintentionally do harm. I don't think the majority of people would want to do harm to an individual. There are some people that are— the narcissists, the, the people who are psychopathic, sociopathic. So, I think ultimately, yes, it would be, it would be a transition that would be painful, but I think one that would completely transform the performance levels of an organization, the productivity levels of an organization, and the overall mental and physical health of, of the entire nation. I should mention there are organizations that, that do work in, in this way. I think it's the, the Institute of Chartered Managers, is it? Is that what it is? The IMC? I forget the way it is, but Chartered Management is a qualification you can do, um, but it's not one that's mandated. It's not one that's specifically asked for in a lot of roles. Um, you look at people like CIPD, it's a really good, um, comparison. If you work in HR, you too have that impact potentially over the human experience. So therefore you are trained, you are monitored, you are part of a professional organisation that sets a standard. for how people in this profession should be working. Again, lots of codes of ethics around that. Um, and again, the HR managers, leaders, you're the ones that will have to pick up the pieces after a bad manager has done their worst. So again, it kind of makes me think that all the people that are further, further down the chain, the occ psychs, the business psychologists, the HR professionals, we have to be trained and heavily regulated, yet the people with direct impact don't. It's like saying, oh, we won't, we won't regulate GPs, but we will definitely regulate the surgeons because they do the really important work, you know?
Al ElliottYeah. So if you imagine that you, you came into power and you put this in place and you're like, okay, everyone needs to be certified. What's the sort of minimum training you'd want to see people have?
Leanne ElliottI would want to see some training around what we call psychosocial risk So, these are things that are actually mandated by HSE in the UK, in terms of organisations should be doing an audit, essentially, on these levers of stress, essentially, within organisations. Should be legally doing it every 12 months. Very few organisations do. Therein lies another problem. But it's going to be things like understanding that, as a manager, The sense of control and autonomy my people feel, how they experience relationships in the workplace, how I approach change in the workplace. It's very practical, um, transactional things, as well as things that might be more core skills around leadership, emotional intelligence, self-awareness, that type of thing. Um, of course, listening is going to be a big one as well. So, I think those would be the kind of the 2 broad topics I'd turn it— turn some kind of training into, is around the psychosocial risk factors. So, managers just educated on how they influence and impact organisational life. And on the other side, some work around self-awareness, emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, that type of thing. Yeah, I think those 2 things together would have such a transformative impact on the experience of people in work.
Al ElliottThat makes a lot of sense. And I know that you've, I mean, you're, you're, if you had, if we had merch, then on the cap would be, if you did one thing, because Leanne always says, if you do one thing, just train your managers. Let me ask you a weird question. Do you really want this to happen, or do you think that that will be fantastic if it did happen, but you, but you wouldn't, you think practically it couldn't?
Leanne ElliottI think practically organizations would make a way that it couldn't.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottBecause if you have good managers, then you have more equity in an organization. You have more fairness. You have equal pay. You don't have people on power trips that will lay off 15,000 people and then put out 5,000 adverts the next day just to lower pay. I think that was Microsoft we saw recently. Oh no, Intel. Intel, sorry, Microsoft.
Al ElliottUm, well, Microsoft did just that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah. So no, I, I would love to see it happen. I think it would, it would absolutely transform not even organizational life, but I think it would change, it would drive change at a societal level in terms of our relationships, in terms of our levels of anger, in terms of our health, our fulfillment, our ability to find meaningful work, making sure that we're being paid fairly. It would have an impact on so many things. I don't think it'll happen because I think organizations will never champion this. And ultimately, you're going to need organizational buy-in, um, at least initially, unless it came into law. It would be so disruptive that I don't think there's a government or an organisation that would voluntarily choose to do it. But just because something's hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
Al ElliottYeah, bravo, bravo. If people want to hear more about you, where would they go? Where would they go, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottWell, you can listen to my podcast. I'm co-host of the UK's number one management podcast, Truth, Lies and Work.
Al ElliottYou've got a little podcast, that's cute.
Leanne ElliottI know, thank you. Available wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Um, oblonghq.com is our organisation. You'll find me on LinkedIn. Um, I say it every week, but I believe, Al, the links will be in the show notes.
Al ElliottI believe they will be. Thank you so, so much, Leigh. It is now— now you're swapping to hosting Leigh now.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottYeah, hosting Leigh. Leigh, it's my favourite time of the week.
Leanne ElliottIt is your favourite time of the week. What time is it?
Al ElliottIt is time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. You already know who Leanne is because she just— I normally, I give you a little sort of like 10-second who Leanne is. You already know, unless you've skipped to this bit, in which case, no, go back and listen to what Leanne said because she gets a little ranty and it's kind of cool. Okay, so the first question we've got in here, why is it so hard to get back in a routine after time off? I've had, we've had a really weird time. Don't ask. We talked about it 2 weeks ago. Really weird time over the last couple of weeks. I found it really difficult to get back into it. So I'm with you here, caller.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, hi, Leanne. Hi, Al and Leanne. I've noticed a weird pattern in myself, and I'm wondering if it's just me. Every time I take a short break, uh, even just a weekend or a couple of days off, I completely lose my rhythm. Before the break, I'm in a good routine, getting stuff done, sticking to habits. But when I come back, I feel off, like mentally foggy, unmotivated, and everything just takes longer. It's frustrating because the break was supposed to give me a break from work, but I end up feeling worse. Is there a better way? To ease back in without losing all my momentum.
Leanne ElliottThis is so common, isn't it? I'm sure everyone listening will be like, I've totally had to— had a break like that. There are things that you can do, and it's things that you can do, um, before you go away and, and while you're, you're, um, away that are gonna, gonna improve the quality of your time off. Your time off is to help you rest and recover. We build that, that resilience. Um, we actually looked at a study on this from the BPS a few months ago, the holiday effect.
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, basically research showed how people take paid leave makes a difference of, of how energized they feel on their return. Um, so it's things like completely detaching. So no checking emails, no going on LinkedIn, no going on any socials where you follow lots of work-related content. Absolutely not accepting any messages or phone calls from your colleagues, completely detaching from work, not engaging with it in any way, um, meant that when we returned to work, that wellbeing boost lasted longer. Activities was an interesting one. So, what they found is that physical activities on holiday actually help us more in terms of that recovery time and the impact of that. So, things like if you went on lots of walks, you went on a skiing holiday, or if you're somewhere sunny, go swimming.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottEvery day, having that type of physical activity has a much better impact in terms of how effective the time off is and how much our wellbeing is boosted for longer on our return. It was something like 2, 3 times longer if we had a more active holiday. Lounging around didn't really have any positive impact on our boost in wellbeing when we returned, which seems counterintuitive. It seems what we want to do, but not so much in my mind.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottMy theory on that would be that potentially when we're lounging around, we might still be thinking about work things. We might be reading something that will trigger something around work, whereas actually when we're out and about doing stuff, it's harder to— it's easier to distract ourselves from that. And also, what I thought was interesting is if you go on holidays with strong levels of social connection. So, if you went on a holiday with some friends, or you've brought in some family members along, or you go somewhere with lots of people You know, similar age to you, where you're gonna, um, get on with. That also boosts our wellbeing on our return. Um, and I think finally the thing is, as I said before you go, how do you handle that? How do you wind everything down so you can switch off? So who's handling that client? Who's picking up your emails? How is that all going to be managed, um, while you're away? Which we talked in detail a few episodes ago. Um, Yeah. So, I will leave a link to that to go and listen. It's really about making sure that you completely wind down your work, hand over, feel comfortable that somebody is going to pick it up for you whilst you're away, doing all of these things on holiday, being active, being social, completely detaching. And then when you come back, having that handover from that person rather than 10,000 emails to come back to. That's kind of the tips around how to take a holiday. My only other thought would be, are you taking long enough at one time, having kind of a couple of days off here and there, or it's hard to, it's hard to switch off enough and then, and then go back into that world. So, my advice would be, if you're just taking these short breaks, maybe try a little longer holiday and see if that has an impact as well, integrating all the things that we just talked about. Yeah.
Al ElliottFrom a personal point of view, when we took some time off, we went to Spain, um, about a month ago, came back and I genuinely forgot my password to get into my computer. Like, I was almost going to get locked out and I'm like, I'm sure it's, double character in the middle, but it wasn't. Um, so yeah, I can totally see that. I think, like Leanne says, detaching is definitely going to help, but perhaps just preparing for your return might also help. So just clear off the first day that you're back and put in your calendar, like we said before, put in your calendar, okay, uh, from 10 to 11, I'm doing my emails. From 11 till 12, I'm writing out my tasks for the week. From 12 to 1, I'm doing so-and-so. Then when you come back, you sound— looking at your letter, it says— your letter, how old am I? Look at your email. It says, I'm good. I'm in a good routine, getting stuff done, sticking to habits. Well, clearly you have habits. And what seems to happen is when you're coming back, you're like, what are my habits? So actually plan out your first 3 or 4 days. Make sure your habits are in your calendar or an iPhone reminder or Android or other phones are available. And that might help you just to get back into the swing of things. As Leanne said, A weekend, weekend, 3 days away, probably for someone who's into habits is probably not enough because you're probably gonna spend all your time thinking about it and then come back and you're like, you might feel foggy because you go, I feel like I've not really had any time off. I might, there was, that was a waste of time because all I did was think about work. So you're a bit tired about that. But yeah, I mean, those are some of our thoughts. Leigh, anything else that might help?
Leanne ElliottNo, I thought that was some really, really good tips though.
Al ElliottOh, thank you very much. Thank you. Okay, so we're on to question number 2. Why is hiring so hard? I'm right at the beginning of launching my business, and honestly, hiring has been brutal. Out of 7 interviews I lined up last week, only 2 people showed up. No replies, no cancellation, just ghosting. This week is going the same way. First interview today, another no-show. The business isn't even open yet. We're gonna talk about that in a second. The business isn't even open yet, so I get that I don't have much of a reputation to attract people, but also. I can't run the whole thing on my own. I'm offering decent pay. I'm guessing I can't run the whole thing on my own, meaning that that's why they need to recruit someone, I'm guessing. Um, I'm offering decent pay, flexibility, and I'm clear that I need people who can multitask a bit, but still it feels like tumbleweeds. Is this just what hiring looks like in the early startup phase? Leigh, thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYes and no.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottIf you have an organization that's brand new, untested, Yes, people might be reluctant in terms of job security, in terms of what they're walking into. It's, it's a different startup world, is a different organizational vibe, and that's going to attract some people and, and, and not so much others. That said, my question to you would be, how much effort have you put into your recruitment process? And my feeling is you're getting applications from people who are maybe kind of scattergun applying because they're really in need of finding work, either because they want to leave their job or, or find one. And when something better comes along, they're ghosting you. And we know from recent research, and, um, is that ghosting is big amongst the Gen Z in terms of, um, how they manage a recruitment, recruitment process. So that's not unusual. That is just sadly something that is trending at the minute. I would say there possibly something in your job advert, your job description, that isn't landing in the right way. Maybe it is a bit too vague in terms of this multitasking. I would focus on— because you're in startup, I would focus on the vision you have for your organization. What's the reason people are going to get out of work every day to, um, put everything, their effort, into, into your organization, into your dreams and goals? How is that going to align with their values? How is that going to make them feel in terms of contributing something positive? How does that make meaningful work for them in terms of the specific role that you're recruiting them to do? And then in terms of the third part of that is the recognition. If you've got, um, you've got good pay, some decent benefits, and then that's gonna, that's gonna kind of be the final bit of glue. I would focus on that aspect. Um, initially whilst you're building your reputation. The other thing I'd say as well is that if your first stage is interview, I'm not really surprised that people aren't really showing up because that is, again, on an unknown, limited information out there about you and your company, a fairly big ask for somebody to take time out of their day and go to wherever it is that you meet them, or even do a Zoom call if they've got other priorities or other recruitment processes they're engaged with, and maybe look at having a quick telephone conversation, maybe look at, you know, their first— making the application a little bit more complex. So, for example, we used to do a work sample test would be the first stage of our recruitment process for a company I worked with. That worked really well because it helped you really— it made other candidates select themselves out of the process before you even start thinking about Interviews. So, a work sample can be really helpful. I think it's maybe looking at your recruitment process. I would suggest having a quick conversation with a recruiter, somebody in HR, somebody like myself, to just kind of talk through what a simple, non-expensive, but effective recruitment process could look like. How that's reflected in the documents you're putting out there, your job descriptions, your job adverts, where you're advertising your job is going to have a massive The massive difference in terms of the type of candidates you're going to attract. I think that'll make a massive difference to the current success rate you're having. And I would, I would, I would counsel you to go down that route and educate yourself a little bit around the recruitment process and what it looks like, rather than going straight to a recruiter. Recruiters typically, unless it's a very, it's a niche role or it's a volume role.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd at this point, I'm not sure you're entirely sure what it is in terms of a role. And it's certainly not at the scale that recruiters are, you know, some of the recruiters that you're used to dealing with. So, that would be my advice to educate yourself on the recruitment process. 'Cause I think, I think you'd see some very quick wins doing that.
Al ElliottYeah. And there's a couple of things I'm going to add to that. First of all, um, having done a few startups myself, uh, what I found was that putting adverts in the paper didn't really work, uh, but going out and finding people. Now, if you want to hear how to hunt people, which sounds a little bit weird, but Go and listen to the Sweaty Startup, Nick Huber. His episode was somewhere about 194, something like that. You'll find it. He's, he basically, that's how he gets all his talent is he goes to Starbucks, sees a person running around and fixing problems and solving problems. And he goes, would you like to come and work with me? He actually got a much more elegant way of doing it. I think he says something like, if you've got any friends who'd like to explore this. The second part of it is that you're in a startup. So, like Leanne says, it's all exciting, but also you're not— if you've got people who are maybe my age who are looking for, you know, maybe you've got a family or something and they're like, I can't afford to take a punt on this. And they might apply, they— you might have given them a, a job, you know, an interview date, and then they go and do some research and go, oh God, I can't go and work. It looks cool, but no, it's not for me. It's not for me. Your no-shows could actually be them just being a bit nice to you going, well, I don't wanna say I don't want it, so they might just, I'll just not turn up because I might hurt their feelings. Sounds like it's actually worse than not turning up. The third and final thing I would say is if you've ever done any marketing or any advertising and you advertise on something like Facebook, then generally if you, if you run an advert on Facebook and say, would you like to buy my stuff? And they go, yes, I would. And you go, book a, book an appointment here. You're getting, you're getting a no-show rate, you've got a show-up rate of about 20%. Because like Leanne said, one, you're advertising Facebook, that's everybody. So you're gonna get people who just go, oh yeah, yeah, fine, I'll stick my email address in, that's absolutely fine, and then forget about it or just change their mind. Whereas if you were to, if you did something around, I don't know, if you were looking for a software developer and you advertised a job on Stack Overflow, you're not advertising in the paper, you're advertising it just in front. So you've got much more chance of getting someone who's A, gonna be good, and B, is going to see it, the right people are going to see it, and C, you're going to turn up. Sorry, I've kind of mixed up all those things there. My main key message there is number one is that every startup I've done, I've gone out and I've never— and I've recruited either. I've run an advert for an intern, which worked really, really well. I got a fantastic one called Richard Tank, who now runs a digital agency himself. He's run several now, he's off on his own. And my second thing I think is that, yeah, look where you're— like Leanne said, look where you're recruiting. You can't just put an advert in the paper these days. You need to find a very specific place where people, your people, are hanging out.
Leanne ElliottAnd I'm sure by paper you mean generic ad boards.
Al ElliottExactly.
Leanne ElliottBecause nobody's posting a job in the paper now, not in the print. Um, another, I mean, another thing, I don't, you didn't mention what your organisation, um, is or how it works, but a great way is just if you're, if you're able to offer the flexibility, offering remote as an option or remote first, I'm sure that will significantly increase your applications and the people that show up as well. And with that, there's remote-specific jobs like Flexijobs, that type of thing. Um, but most job boards now have that option. post-COVID. So, that could be a little trick to get more applications. But the fact is, you don't want more applications, you want quality applications. So, I think there's a little bit of work to be done here. But I love that idea, Al, in terms of finding interns, going to— yeah, getting in touch with local colleges, universities around career days, that type of thing could also be a really good take. And as you say, younger people are typically more energetic and optimistic about startup life than perhaps somebody a bit older who has got a few more commitments.
Al ElliottOkay, Lee, question number 3. How do you manage someone who keeps pushing it? I've read this before.
Leanne ElliottPush it real good.
Al ElliottThat's got a different— that's a different pushing, I think. Moving on to this. I manage around 20 people, and honestly, I find it hard to get the balance right. I'm either too soft or too harsh. One team member's constantly late or leaving early, always with a personal reason. It's been going on for weeks. I finally listed out all the times that she's left early, and she just replied, you approved them all. I did not. Then yesterday I asked her to do a report and she told me I should do it myself.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Al ElliottMy own manager's avoiding the issue. I'm stuck. How do I handle this without making things worse? Hey, I want to hear this answer.
Leanne Elliott20 people is a lot, actually, so I'm not surprised that you're not getting the balance right with everybody. Um, yeah, go a bit easy on yourself. That's a, that's a tough one. Um, I'm sure you're engaging in your own training and professional development to help you with this, so I won't Even dip my little toe into that side of it. Um, this is— it goes back to that incivility in the workplace, doesn't it? This isn't digital, it's, it's, it's face to face. Um, but it is these types of, of little behaviors. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, if I had a manager who came, who let this behavior continue for 2 weeks and then came with me to a long list of things that irritated me about them, about me, do you know what I mean?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThen I'd, I'd probably be a bit like, oh, well, you said I could as well. I think that would probably— yeah. kick in my little, um, yeah, defense response. I don't think you handled that in the brilliant way. If you notice the behavior— and this is all what it comes down to, is having difficult conversations, which is one of the worst and hardest things about being a line manager— the most important thing about having a difficult conversation is to have it really early so it's not that difficult. The longer it goes on, the more difficult it gets, and the more you dread that conversation. I think it was Was it, um, Kat who was on the show probably 50 episodes ago said the more uncomfortable it is, the more needed that conversation is. So I think the fact that you left it 2 weeks hasn't helped. I think by the sounds of it, there is some misunderstanding around the flexibility this person has in their workplace that might just need to be reiterated to them in terms of why they You know, if they do have to leave early, how that process is managed, whatever your internal process is. And if you don't have one, then kind of what do you expect if you're not, you've not got those boundaries? Sorry, our dogs are, as we did say at the beginning of the show, are around and starting to get a bit vocal. We've ignored them for about 45 minutes now, so that might be why. So, yes, I think reiterating what is your policy around flexibility, what is your preference as a manager in terms of how that is requested, make sure you're flexible as well, because the more rigid you are, it isn't going to help to rebuild what is now Tipping into a difficult relationship. I think finally, giving this person again the benefit of the doubt. If you've asked them to do a report and they've said no, why have they said no? Have they said no because they don't want to do it, they can't be bothered, and they think you should do it because that's your job? Or is it because they don't feel capable or confident enough to do it? Is it a stretch activity that you've given them? Yeah. And we know from lots of research around this in terms of this type of delegation is if you delegate in a way that's like, I understand that this might sound like a big ask, I understand that this is new to you, that it's going to really push you out of your comfort zone. I think because of how you handled this task previously and the levels of communication you showed, the level of insight, the level of, um, analytical thinking you showed, I think this is going to be a really great task that's going to push you, but in a way it's going to be really great for your development. I'll work on it with you, or we'll check in, um, as and when. And kind of framing it like that— again, we know from the research that building up somebody's confidence when we delegate a task massively increases the likelihood that they're gonna, gonna accept that, accept that challenge. So I think there's some things that you could be doing here in terms of your management, assuming this person isn't just really awful. It might be that they are. It might be that they're going through something. Why are they having to leave? early every day? What is going on there? It sounds like this— a little reset conversation is needed in, in terms of this person, in terms of the policy around leaving work early, in terms of why they didn't feel able to take on that extra report, and just a little bit of a welfare check in terms of why they're needing that flexibility. Is everything okay? Is there something going on that you could be supporting them with?
Al ElliottYeah, excellent answer. And I think I'll just add one, one last bit to that, is saying, is it— is this Out of your 20, is it just a problem with one person or are you having this problem with most of your people? Because if it's most of your people, it probably is your management style. If it's just the one person, everyone else is cool as a cucumber, then maybe, I mean, has that, was that one person potentially up for your job as manager at one point? Um, I like the answers. Maybe there's something terrible going on in their life. Yeah. If you go back to, uh, Christina Hockett from last week, she was talking about divorce, um, and how that's got a huge impact on, on work, you know? And so, Perhaps this person's going through a divorce. I don't know. Maybe they're at a bereavement. You don't know. Like Leanne said, in fact, first thing you need to do is email Leanne and have like 20 minutes with Leanne. She will tell you how to fix this. Um, secondly, it may be you, but thirdly, it may only just be that one person and maybe you're just unlucky that that one person is making your life a little bit hell. Just like a lot of people have got one bad manager in their life making, making their life hell. And if you got rid of that one bad manager, everything'd be cool.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, there's some, there's some investigation here, isn't there, in terms of whether it is you or whether it is this person, or more than likely a small combination of both. Um, but yeah, to, as Al said, I offer a link to book a call with me direct, and I offer it free, half an hour advice to anyone who, who needs it. I'm not trying to sell you anything, just trying to help. So, um, yeah, get in touch.
Al ElliottOkay, that's it for this week. If you've enjoyed this episode, then good news for you, there's another one next Tuesday. If you enjoy the interview-style questions, surveys, no, what am I talking about? Interview-style episodes, there's another one Thursday. And if you have enjoyed it, then can you do us a little favour? Can you jump on whichever platform that you use? I mean, Apple Podcasts is the perfect one for us, but, and leave us a review. Just give us 5 stars if you think it was worth 5 stars. And just a little sort of like, oh, I like this, because that really does genuinely help us. We have been at number 1 in the management podcasts in the UK for quite a while. Um, business. I noticed this morning, Leanne, on Apple Podcasts, we're about 25, which is great because we, we were languishing around at about 50, um, a couple of weeks ago. And I think that's down to the number of reviews that people have left. And also just saying nice things about us genuinely makes our day. Monica Todd. Hello, Monica.
Leanne ElliottHi, Monica. You're still our favourite.
Al ElliottYou're still our favourite. She says something really lovely on, on LinkedIn. We've never met Monica. Don't know who Monica is. Um, and see, our little dog approves.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo that's, there's a little thank you from, from our little dog. Called Bobby. Uh, so yeah, if you just, if there's something, if you like it, then just maybe mention us or if we sound a bit needy here, but to be fair, it did make our day.
Leanne ElliottIt really did make our day. It really did. You know, it's, it's, it's, this is so much about community and, and we believe that you're there and, and getting value from this. We love it when people get in touch and tell us how they can get more value from, from the show. Um, so yeah, everyone needs a little bit of love and appreciation. So we massively Massively appreciate that. But yes, we'll be back on Thursday with another interview, um, and we're finally gonna bring you that interview about Candace at work that we teased ages ago before our life got turned upside down. We will be speaking to Jeff LeBlanc— no relation, as we know.
Al ElliottAs we know. I didn't— I meant to ask him, but I didn't ask him.
Leanne ElliottBut yeah, I'll, I'll ask before we—
Al Elliottyeah, before we put that out.
Leanne ElliottUm, Jeff is, um, is awesome. He's an author, university professor, a proud Bostonian, um, an expert in kindness and empathy in work, and an all-around just really nice guy.
Al ElliottWell, he had to be, really. If he's an expert in kindness at work, he had— he couldn't be an asshole, could he?
Leanne ElliottIt would be, it would be odd. So yes, we'll be asking Geoff the question, is kindness at work a weakness? Oof. Geoff has spent thousands of hours looking at the impact of kindness at work, so we will be finding out Do nice guys and girls finish last?
Al ElliottYeah. So we'll see you on Thursday with Geoff. We'll see you next Tuesday with Leanne and Al. That's us two. And hopefully we'll be able to lock our dogs somewhere else for next week. If you want to see what our dogs look like, go on LinkedIn. Leanne will put a little post on there.
Leanne ElliottYeah, okay.
Al ElliottSee you soon.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye.
Al ElliottComing up this week on Work. Got it wrong already.
Leanne ElliottBrought to you by the business— brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the business— oh my God, why can't I get this out? The audio destination for business— brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is—
Al ElliottBy now, if you don't— this is your first time listening, Leanne is a business psychologist.
Leanne ElliottChartered occupational therapist.
Al ElliottChartered occupational therapist. See, one of the things— do all that again, because that was, that was good, but