Episode 221 · 7 August 2025 · 43:25

Is chasing success making you unhappy? With Carolina Lasso, former Google and AmEx high-flyer

Featuring Carolina Lasso

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Carolina's story: from valedictorian to empty on her 34th birthday
interview#burnout #google #achievement-addiction #emptiness
Healthy ambition vs. achievement addiction
interview#ambition #achievement-addiction #burnout #healthy-ambition
How Carolina knew it was more than a bad week
interview#burnout #self-awareness #mental-health #warning-signs
Step one: noticing the busyness badge
interview#busyness #burnout #self-reflection #habits
Belonging, travel and the search for something more
interview#belonging #travel #purpose #identity
Redefining joy beyond the big smiles
interview#joy #happiness #busyness #societal-pressure
Back-to-back meetings and the breaking point
interview#meetings #burnout #boundaries #workplace-culture
What flourishing actually feels like
interview#flourishing #wellbeing #burnout #positive-psychology
High achievers and the goals trap
interview#high-achievers #goals #discernment #perfectionism
Why the ego isn't your enemy and where to find Carolina
outro#ego #self-development #coaching #personal-growth

Show notes

Is Chasing Success Making You Unhappy? — with Carolina Lasso

Guest: Carolina Lasso — former Google and AmEx high-flyer, author of The Path to Flourishing, host of the Plenamente podcast.

On her 34th birthday, Carolina Lasso had everything she'd ever worked for — a glittering career at Google and American Express, the accolades, the achievements. And she felt absolutely nothing.

What followed was a six-month mental health sabbatical, a solo journey across Italy, India, Kenya and beyond, and a radical redefinition of what success actually means.

Carolina joins Al and Leanne to unpack the "achievement addiction" that drives so many high performers — the moment she realised her self-worth had become tangled up in output, why "I'm busy" is a warning sign rather than a badge of honour, and how she learned to measure success not by peak performance but by being able to say, simply, "I am well."

They also explore why the ego isn't the enemy we think it is, how to tell the difference between healthy ambition and addiction, and why flourishing isn't about being happy all the time.

Top 3 Takeaways

Notice before you change. Carolina's first step wasn't a dramatic life overhaul — it was simply noticing when she was wearing busyness as a badge of honour. Recognition comes before transformation.
Ask "who am I trying to impress?" When achievement becomes identity, it's often masking a deeper need for love and belonging. Getting curious about the "why" behind the hustle is where the real work begins.
Flourishing isn't constant happiness. It's being able to say "I am well" — even when things aren't perfect. Fully embracing every emotion, not just the positive ones, is part of the deal.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThere's a Google employee who stopped drinking water during work hours, not because she forgot, but because she didn't have time to use the bathroom. There's a valedictorian with a perfect GPA who ate her lunches in elevators while biking between meetings. And there's a Silicon Valley success story who, on her 34th birthday, woke up feeling so empty she packed a bag and left everything behind.

Leanne ElliottThey are all the same person. Our guest today, Carolina Lasso, wore busyness like a badge of honor until her body and mind simply said enough. She's a former Google and American Express employee who discovered that climbing the corporate ladder at breakneck speed meant she was climbing the wrong ladder entirely.

Al ElliottCarolina's story started like the American dream. Colombian immigrant arrives at 17, gets scholarships, achieves perfect grades, lands jobs at the world's most prestigious companies. But here's the thing, she was literally too good for her own good.

Carolina LassoFrom a very young age, I started receiving accolades and awards for my academic results. So I was valedictorian in high school, commencement speaker in college, 4.0 GPA, which in the US is like perfect score. I started to notice that I would get attention and love through my accomplishments. Attention, love, validation, self-worth through output. That's unhealthy, of course.

Leanne ElliottAfter a 6-month mental health sabbatical and a journey across Italy, India, Kenya, and beyond, Carolina discovered something profound. The opposite of burnout isn't happiness. It's something much simpler and more radical.

Al ElliottCarolina calls it flourishing, but don't worry, this isn't another Instagram-perfect wellness story. When Carolina talks about flourishing, she means waking up on a Tuesday morning and simply being okay with being human, even if that means feeling sad or angry or even lost.

Leanne ElliottAnd in a world where how are you is answered with busy, Carolina has a challenging message. Maybe that badge of honor you're wearing is actually killing you. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work. So today we're asking, what happens when busy becomes your entire identity? Let's find out after this very short break.

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. So we're joined here by a pretty incredible woman. I'm not even gonna attempt to talk about her history because I think there's a lot of things we can dive into here. But before we start, can you just tell us, Carolina, who you are, what you do, and what you might be famous for?

Carolina LassoI'm Carolina Lasso. I am an author. I am an eternal student and a fellow human being walking this planet Earth. I majored in international business. I'm an immigrant from Colombia, and I moved to the US when I was 17. And I had a pretty big dream of accomplishing a lot of goals. I was very determined and ended up going into business because I got a scholarship. And then I followed the steps they tell us to follow in order to be happy.

Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.

Carolina LassoYet to get to a point and realize, oh, this ladder I have been climbing, this is not my ladder. This road I've been driving so fast, so quickly with so much determination and energy, this is not my road. And so I had to, lately I've been calling it recalculate, kind of like when you are driving and your GPS says recalculating and, uh, you'll go in a different direction. And I've reinvented myself. So now, nowadays, I call myself a purpose mentor and a human flourishing teacher, facilitator, and eternal student. And that's what I do. I love connecting with people. I love walking side by side people from all corners of the world for them to reconnect with their purpose, sense of meaning, and flourishing.

Al ElliottCarolina, I wanna start off. It's the biggest question after doing so much research on you, it's the biggest question I've got for you. It seemed like you had everything. You had the MBA, you had degrees, you had travel experience, you were working at Google, you worked at Amex. You seem to have just given it all up one day, just said, no, I don't want that anymore. Tell me the story. What happened?

Carolina LassoYeah, this is actually the story on how I began my first book, The Path to Flourishing. And it starts on my 34th birthday, interestingly enough. I had gone out with friends and my feet were hurting from dancing so much. And the night before, I received so many gifts and hugs and just so much love from people. And so you would've thought that everything was fine in my life. I was married, I was living in Silicon Valley, in Sunnyvale specifically, the vale of the The Valley of the Sun, right? So like it's sunny every single day. And the next morning I woke up feeling so much sense of emptiness and lack of clarity about my life. It was this sense of like all these things that I have, that I've earned, that I have worked so hard for, are not really leading me to being happy. What's going on? And so it was disappointment at another level because It was just like, I did everything right. That feeling of I had checked all the boxes. Why is it that I don't feel happy? Why is it that I have so many profound questions about the meaning of life, about what to do next, my next chapter? I had given up a little bit on life because of that disappointment of doing everything supposedly by the book and not getting that happiness back. And so that day I left my house. I left, I just packed up a bag and left and went on to think. I just needed to have space, quiet space to think. That led into taking a 6-month sabbatical from Google because of mental health. My big questions evolved into frustration, Worry, concern, eventually anxiety, eventually apathy, eventually depression. So I left and got divorced and traveled around the world to find myself. A little cliché, I know, the whole Eat, Pray, Love thing. My friends joke about the fact that I am the Colombian version of Eat, Pray, Love because indeed I went to Italy to do art therapy. I went to live in an ashram in southern India, in the state of Kerala. I, eventually I also went to Kenya, Tanzania, Singapore, Colombia, and I just wanted to learn. I became obsessed about learning from all of these different cultures and traditions and the wisdom from so many different places around the world to understand, A, why I was not happy, and 2, Then what was the recipe, the ingredients for happiness? And when I got back, I realized that it was not happiness that I was after. It was something deeper. And I, in my book, I call it flourishing. In Spanish, there is a word that doesn't have a translation, which is plenitud, and it involves being content, being whole, being in a state of tranquility, being well, wholesome. And then I realized that that's what I was really looking for, something that would be with me in the peaks and the valleys of my life, not necessarily happiness, which has this huge euphoric, upbeat, high-energy connotation, but something a lot more relatable, stable in my life. And so I found for my own benefit, for my own life, the 7 principles that take us to a flourishing life. Um, I didn't even know I would call it that, but eventually that's what became my first book.

Al ElliottRight. So Carolina has just told us about waking up on her 34th birthday, feeling completely empty despite having everything. But here's what I wanted to understand. Was this actually about achievement or was there something deeper going on? You were doing everything in your life, right? You were like, you're going to Google, you were at Amex, you were Silicon Valley, you were living in, like you were saying, in the most amazing place. What's the difference between healthy, ambitious, and healthy goals and just sort of collecting achievements?

Carolina LassoWhat's the difference between healthy ambition and just being addicted to it is how I'd reframe the question. I was addicted to it for sure, because from a very young age, I started receiving accolades and awards for my academic results. So I was valedictorian in high school, commencement speaker in college, 4.0 GPA, which in the US is like perfect score. Um, and I loved it. And I realized that I started to notice that I would get attention and love through my accomplishments. Attention, love, validation.

Al ElliottHmm.

Carolina Lassoself-worth through output. And that's a really hard realization to get to, but it was the truth. It just happens, right? When human beings develop, we all develop certain things, and that was mine. And so that's unhealthy, of course, to— and it took me, it took so much work, shadow work, all sorts of Uh, retreats and therapy and exploration and inquiry to get to that point and realize that I am not my goals. I am my self-worth, my identity, my worth, my value does not come from anything external. But the moment I started to tie my self-worth to my accomplishments, That's when it got to be not helpful, not productive. I was too good for my own good is how I came to think about it, trying to do so much and be the good student and be the good daughter and be the good neighbor and the good citizen up until, up to a point that it became negative for my own wellbeing because I would bend over backwards for everybody. I would sign up for all types of projects at work. I would do so much. And that's the thing, I was so focused on doing, I forgot being. And that trip around the world, it allowed me the space to be, not just do. And so it's a reminder that we're not human doings, we're human beings. And I think that's the difference. When you have goals, when you have structure, when you have clarity about what you want, that's wonderful. So long as your self-worth is not tied to it.

Al ElliottWhat's the difference between having a bad week or a bad month and what you felt like? How did you know it wasn't just something that, oh, it'll pass?

Carolina LassoI thought it would be something that would pass. I thought I was going through something temporary. And I do want to name that a lot of the self-help books and content out there encourages to like, keep on going, you know, just wake up next day and stand up and with discipline and the right mindset, you'll accomplish anything. And so I believed it and I would keep on trying that. Today is going to be better. I'll wake up. I'm going to go do my mindfulness practice. I am going to go to the gym and I want to do gratitude. I'm going to do this and I'll try to do it all. And I would still feel so empty.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Carolina LassoAnd, and dissatisfied. And I think apathy is probably the one that struck me the hardest because I was always very engaged, very involved, very positive in general in my life. And when no matter what I did wouldn't help, I realized it was time to ask for help. And the other part was that there was shame associated with mental health. And so I would go to work wearing my mask, my happy smiling, I can do it all mask, because I thought that opening up to say I'm not okay would completely damage my reputation. This was my, my own story in my head of, well, you're not cut for this, right? I was working at Google with brilliant minds and super determined and hardworking people. And so admitting that something was not okay was kind of admitting that I, I couldn't do it, that I was not cut for it, that I was not made for something like that. And so I would refuse to, and I denied it for close to a year. And of course it felt like a pressure cooker, right? And so the more you hide it, the stronger it is going to explode one day. And so one day, I just couldn't take it any longer. My boss realized it and he noticed how bad it was, and that's when I started my, my time off. So I think deep inside we know it. I was listening to a podcast by Brené Brown, and Dr. Brown, as we know, is a researcher on different types of emotions and shame. And she talked about in her book, Atlas of the Heart, that it, based on her research, the average person The average person can only name 3 emotions: happy, angry, or sad. And if you think about, or if you've ever seen, or anyone listening, if you've ever seen the wheel of emotions, my goodness, there are so many things that we can feel as human beings that we even have labels for. And I'm sure there are many others that we can't even name or label or have a word for. And so it's really important to have that depth of discernment and understand what's going on with us.

Al ElliottSo if someone's listening to this and it's resonating deeply, they're going, do you know what? I am wearing busyness as a badge. Can you give them something, some practical steps in saying how they climb down from that point in their life?

Carolina LassoYeah, I would say step one is recognition.

Leanne ElliottNoticing.

Carolina LassoNoticing. Because sometimes you don't even notice that's what you're doing. And so first notice, oh gee, I've been doing that for a long time now. Number 2, ask yourself, what's underneath that? Why would busyness make you important? Would elevate you? There's this extra sense of elevation.

Leanne ElliottOf what?

Carolina LassoTo what? For what? Who do you want to impress? Is it yourself? Is it your inner child? Is it your parents? Is it your boss? Who is behind this? What's going on there? And once you've uncovered it, Then recognize what may be driving it. What was the trigger point for that? And using that information, then you can uncover too and explore ways to change it from that root cause, right? Because you can try to just change the language and not say busy. You can say, fine, I'm doing fine. Or, you know, I'm more spacious today or whatever. But if it's not authentic and if it doesn't tackle the root cause, then it'll continue to happen, or it'll be superficial or fake. But what's underneath that, right? In my case, it was that sense of, well, if I'm busy, then that means I'm successful. And if I'm successful, and if I do a lot of really good things and have productive outcomes and very creative solutions, then I'm going to be accepted. I am going to belong. I'm gonna be loved. That's mine. What's yours? What's on the other side, right? And so I think it becomes real important to get to that root cause.

Al ElliottLet's talk about belonging for a second.

Carolina LassoI knew you were going to go there. I saw your eyes. I saw your eyes.

Al ElliottYou knew it. Belonging. You traveled. A lot of people we meet who travel extensively, I sense they're just looking for somewhere to belong, but often they just All that changes is the view out their window. What would you say to someone who feels like they don't really belong? Does travel help? Does changing jobs help?

Carolina LassoI could come up with a really good answer for that, but what I would wanna say is teach me because I'm still struggling with it. After moving so many times, I've lost count on the number of cities where I've lived, even within one state or one region of the world. I think on average I was moving once a year. And so it really uproots you. And I've struggled with sense of belonging and identity, being multicultural, bilingual, being just, just having one foot here, one foot there. So right now I'm living in Canada most of the year, but in the winter I spend my time in Colombia. And then throughout the year, I'm also traveling to so many different places. And so it really makes me wonder, where do I belong? And I'll tell you, I go back to Colombia where I grew up and I don't belong fully anymore. And it hurts me. I'm like, I wanna belong here. I want this to be my home. But, uh, there are just so many cultural aspects that don't resonate with me anymore. And yet, if I'm in North America, if I'm in Europe, I'm also like, Ah, no, I don't belong here either. I don't resonate. My joke is that, I mean, I'm born in, that I belong in the Caribbean, like somewhere in between North and South America. So I've come to embrace it and just know that I will never feel like I fully belong. And how can I make that okay? How can I create my own culture? How can I create my own home? And develop it within me so that it's, it comes with me wherever I go. Now, sounds nice, not easy. And I don't think I've gotten to that point just yet. I'm homesick very frequently, anywhere I go.

Leanne ElliottI'm busy. She's right. People do say that all the time. It is our default response, and she's connecting it to this need to belong, to be loved. But Al, I'm thinking about our listeners who genuinely are busy, not by choice, but by necessity.

Al ElliottThat was exactly what I was thinking when I was talking to Carolina. So I pushed back on this. Let's see what she says. What happens if you haven't got the luxury to be able to go out there and follow what brings you joy because you have to bring in money to feed a family or to care for a sick one? What are we supposed to do now?

Carolina LassoI think joy, the word joy also has that sense of euphoria and big smiles. I think the type of joy I would want to connect with and the type of joy I talk about is one that is a lot more grounded on the inner knowing, the inner yes. It's a little bit of connecting to that inner compass that tells us it's this way. The yes is here. Not necessarily the big laughter and smiles that are not always possible. Let me come back to that, but I do want to address what you're mentioning, which is the toxic positive positivity that ignores marginalization, oppression, injustice in the world. And that, uh, no, with just a change in mindset, I'm not just going to go and all of a sudden change my circumstances when there's something systemic that prevents me from doing it no matter what I do. So I do think there is something there that we do need to address and we do need to change. Therefore, we need more people willing to follow their inner knowing to address those changes, to make the change happen. And so for everybody, it's that discernment of, I keep going back to that word, right? But that ability to connect to our inner wisdom. And say, what's next for me? Where is that next step? And so I talk about follow your joy from that perspective. What gives me inner peace? Another word I use is enthusiasm from the Greek in theos, in God, in divinity. And I don't talk about religion, but I do sense that extra, like, connection to source, connection to something bigger that guides you. It guides me because it gives me peace. It gives me, um, extra sense of curiosity and motivation. And so lately I've been talking a lot more about either enthusiasm or curiosity, follow your curiosity. So if you are a person who has to work 3 shifts and you do not have the time, the space, there's so much going on, you're going through complex times. How can you connect to that which gives you a little bit more inner peace, tranquility, that sense of curiosity and motivation? And I do believe that the bigger change, I talk about this a lot when I talk about purpose, but the bigger change toward purpose, toward flourishing happens one step at a time, one breadcrumb of curiosity at a time. Picking up the breadcrumbs one at a time of curiosity and enthusiasm. And sure, if there is joy, that's wonderful. If you can uncover it, if it's present, that's beautiful. But it's more about that grounded level of inner knowing.

Leanne ElliottI'm glad she addressed the systemic issues there. She's not just saying think positive when someone's working 3 jobs.

Al ElliottYeah, but I was still a little skeptical because follow your curiosity when you're absolutely exhausted. I just didn't know whether that was gonna be feasible. Now, wait until you hear what she tells us about next, about just how far her busyness went.

Leanne ElliottWe'll find out after the break. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode, and two out of three of us are devilishly good-looking.

Al ElliottAnd you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you—we need to do this in threes—the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Leanne ElliottSeamless, seamless.

Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how. New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioral science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. So going back to the young woman who was eating her lunch in the elevator, who was not drinking so that she didn't have to go to the toilet. What story was she telling herself back then?

Carolina LassoSo, Al is mentioning the story I tell in my book that sometimes I would have back-to-back meetings without any breaks throughout my day. This was when I was in the corporate world, that sometimes I chose not to drink so much water because I wouldn't have enough time to go to the bathroom in between meetings. Sometimes I remember in the Google campus, which was so big, I had to bike from one building to the next with the pretty yellow Google bikes, and that wouldn't give me enough time to go to the bathroom. And of course, it's an exaggeration, but yeah, like, that was part of it. And the story that all of that situation stemmed from is I need to meet other people's expectations. I cannot let them down. There was That big component. I thought I was being responsible. I thought I was being responsible by attending all meetings, going to everything, doing it all. And then I realized it was not responsible with myself, my own health. And that responsibility is the ability to respond. And I was not really responding properly. I was not really having the ability to respond because clearly that was anti-humanness. And I learned, right? And I think that's the thing. And lately I've really been embracing this idea that our life purpose, our supreme life purpose is to uncover, kind of like peel the onion and uncover deeper and deeper versions of ourselves. That are more authentic, that remove all of those ego narrative, self-identity layers and get to the core of who we truly are. And I think a lot of people ask me, do I have a purpose? Does everybody have a purpose? I can't find my purpose. I'm like, first of all, you don't find purpose. We walk the purpose path. It's a path. It's a journey. And number 2, yeah, every single person has one. And at the very highest level, it's that, to reconnect with who you truly are, your true essence, your inner being, your, if you allow me to say, more divine self.

Al ElliottFor someone who's listening to this and going, you've used all these fluff words that I read everywhere, mindfulness, purpose, all this kind of stuff, transcendence. They're still not convinced. Is the one message you want to give to them? To convince them that purpose is the way.

Carolina LassoI'm not here to convince anybody. I am here to provide tools for anyone this resonates with and to make it a little easier for people navigating transitions, maybe offering some of the help that I wish I had during that moment. And I struggled so much and I am here to remind every single person that we all, every single person deserves to flourish, every single person. So I don't want anyone out there thinking they don't deserve a flourishing life, one with meaning, one with peace of mind, one with the support system they deserve, one that feels Well, everybody deserves well-being, being well.

Al ElliottLet's talk about this word flourishing. You've used it a lot. Um, what does flourishing actually feel like? I'm not talking about the Instagram fancy, like I'm posting beautiful quotes and lovely pictures of me happy. What does Tuesday morning alarm goes off? What does flourishing actually feel like for the real people?

Carolina LassoI would say the shortest version of flourishing is I am well, well-being. Be well. It means you get a good night's sleep and you're able to wake up and you're able to appreciate the fact that you're alive and you go out and you do your very best in whatever it is you're doing and with the resources at your disposal. That's the very basic level, right? And then of course we want more. I want more people. I want to envision a world in which every single person Beliefs. They deserve flourishing. They deserve a life that is driven by motivation and health and equity, and they deserve moments of smiles. They deserve support when the smiles are not present and the tears are. They deserve to feel their, all their emotions. They deserve To find a path that has meaning in their lives, where they can enjoy moments of pausing, of presence, and where the lows of life can be managed better through tools and a support network, and we decrease suffering everywhere.

Al ElliottIt may sound a little utopic sometimes, but I So if I've understood this, then flourishing doesn't necessarily mean you wake up, bounce out of bed every single day and sing. It means that you are doing something, working towards something meaningful. You're okay with feeling sad and crying some days, perhaps feeling angry, or have I misunderstood?

Carolina LassoYeah, I think part of it is fully embracing any and every emotion you feel because we've come accustomed to First, not only not know to recognize what emotions we're going through, as we just talked about, but then what do you do with them? And a lot of people reject what they're going through, want to avoid those emotions. And of course, nobody wants to feel sad or frustrated or confused. They're not pleasant, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't embrace them. Most importantly, I believe that every single emotion comes with wisdom. And the emotion is here to say something to us, to send us a message, right? It's kind of like when you put your hand on the stove and it's still hot, you need to have that feedback. It's hot. Take your hand away. Put it off, right? Because otherwise you're going to burn and you're going to have a scar and whatever. The emotion is telling you this is not the path. The emotion is telling you this is not okay. The emotion is telling you that was so fun. The emotion is telling you there's hope here, whatever it is. Emotions are giving us feedback, data, information. And so yes, flourishing is being okay with what is present, not in a passive way, but quite the contrary. Embracing is quite active. And it requires that level of presence and self-awareness and the ability to say, this is part of me today. It's temporary, and I am going to listen to it. Now, there's another level of flourishing that I talk about in my book, which is a lot more spiritual. And so I talk about it being the recognition of our true essence as human beings. Transcending the ego. And so it's the recognition that I am a limitless, unbounded, majestic human being. And I'm not just talking about myself, of course, every single person is. And when I recognize that true essence and I overcome any obstacles my ego may present, Ego being the story I tell about myself, the identity I create about my own self, then I am able to live more fully in the present moment and suffer less. I see it as the blue sky, which is always there. It's always present, but sometimes it has some clouds that cover the sky. So it's about removing the clouds. More so than creating a sky that doesn't exist, right? It's already there. We just need to discover it, right? Remove what covers it to really connect with our true essence. So in a nutshell, flourishing level 1 would be being well. Flourishing level 2 would be recognizing our true essence. And by doing so, so much gets addressed and you just feel better.

Leanne ElliottI am well. It's so simple, but when did we lose sight of that? What I appreciate is she's not promising constant happiness. She's talking about being okay with a full range of emotions. But then how do you actually find balance in practice?

Al ElliottLet's look at the opposite of that. So if you are a high achiever, And your self-worth is tied to these outcomes, then you are probably going to burn out, probably going to have something happen in your life, which it did with you. So then the opposite of that is going, well, I'm content with myself. I'm satisfied with myself. I'm happy with where I am. But then there's no tension to make yourself better. So where is that middle ground of having goals to make your, to improve yourself? but not having them take over your life?

Carolina LassoI think once again, we go back to discernment and discernment on why is it that I don't have a lot of goals? What's going on? Have I lost my North Star? Have I lost my motivation? Am I doing something that is too easy for me? I love the concept of flow, being in a state of flow. So based on the book by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, And in the book, he talks about that channel of, which is the balance between skills and joy, right? And so when your skills are too developed for a project or for something you're doing, then you can get into boredom because it's too easy for you. But when you go into something that one, you don't like, and 2, is too difficult, too challenging, then you go into anxiety, overwhelm. And so I think what's important is to find this sweet spot on constantly doing things that are interesting, challenging, where you go into that state of flow. You're fully immersed into the activity. You lose track of time. You lose ego. One of my favorite aspects of of flow, and you are just one with the activity. That is healthy. That uses your skills. It drives engagement. It leads to joy and satisfaction and presence without the overattachment to the outcome. You are so immersed with the activity. It is as though you and the activity become one. You're not checking the clock to see what time it is. You even forget you're hungry oftentimes. You're just so embedded, immersed, involved in what you're doing. Your skills are put into use, right? Whatever it is that you're doing, your skills are used, engaged. Your mind is there, your heart is there, And you become one. There is that loss of ego, of identity. You're not worried about the outcome. You're just in so much presence and there's so much joy because of that.

Al ElliottBut this is the opposite to the young Colombian woman who was eating her lunch in the elevator, who wore like busyness, like the badge of honor.

Carolina LassoThat was me. And unfortunately I was not the only one. We are so frequently wearing busyness as the badge of honor. Oftentimes they ask you, hi, how are you? And you say, busy. The answer is, I am busy. Notice that, right? I am. Your existence is busy. I am busy. And it's so concerning because we were not born to just be in the hustle or busy, busy, busy. Every single day. There is so much to life about being. I've had to learn the lesson the hard way. And now when I see that and I see so many people burning out with such high levels of stress, not having space and time to eat a proper meal, let alone to spend time with loved ones, to do the hobbies that make them joyful, that make them smile. Or just do nothing. In my book, I talk about, uh, when I was in Italy, I learned the concept of il dolce far niente, and it's so beautiful, that state, that sweet moment of doing nothing, nothingness, right? That ability to just be, wander around and wonder about life and how majestic it is to be able to be alive and to have this planet. But we don't stop enough to do all of that. I mean, we don't even stop to go on vacation properly, let alone those moments in our day-to-day. So it all starts with taking a pause, stopping, taking a moment to disconnect.

Al ElliottI want to ask you a bit of a practical question because you've I agree with you, by the way. Ego is the enemy.

Carolina LassoYes. And I'm gonna interrupt you there, Al, because I don't think ego is an enemy. We don't have an enemy. I don't think so. I actually use the word transcendence when referring to the ego. I actually think we should embrace it and love it. And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the ego and a lot of different definitions, right? So if you go into Psychology itself, it means one thing. Sometimes they call it personality. If in colloquial terms, it means someone arrogant, right? Like, oh, egocentric. It comes from that. But the more I would call it more perhaps spiritual, or the term that I have come to embrace is ego is the identity you create about your life, about yourself. So we all have a story in our heads of our own life. I introduced myself, I chose what words to include, I chose what events not to include, right? Like, that's my story. It's the narrative I have of my own life that then becomes a little bit of a reputation that I'm going to protect at all costs. That's the ego. It's that narrative. And so, ooh, If they perceive me as different, then the ego feels attacked. And so it is going to react or, ooh, if I don't do this, I'm not going to get love. I'm not going to be loved. I'm not going to belong. Therefore, the ego goes out and it does things to protect us. And so I don't think we need to overcome it. We need to fight with it. We should, I've learned we should embrace it, listen to it.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Carolina LassoAnd sometimes simply appease it. What's going on, ego? What part of you is feeling attacked here? Let's have a conversation. What message do you have for me? I really like the approach of internal family systems to identify all of those parts of ourselves that sometimes go out and protest or feel attacked or simply need a little bit more love. And I think the ego is one of them.

Leanne ElliottAnd that reframing is wonderful. The ego isn't the enemy. It's trying to protect us. In her case, protecting her need to belong.

Al ElliottIt all comes back to that achievement addiction, doesn't it? Using accomplishments to feel loved. I'm sure we've all done it. Okay, let's just find out quickly where people can learn more about Carolina's work.

Carolina LassoSure. People can go to my website, carolinalasso.com, or LinkedIn, uh, talk to me. There, if you speak Spanish, I'm also on Instagram as @carolasso, and I love hearing from people. So just name this podcast and let me know that you've listened to it, and I'd love to engage in conversation. I do answer most of the messages I get, all of them. And so please do connect.

Al ElliottAnd have you still got a Spanish-speaking podcast?

Carolina LassoI do. Yeah. It's called Plenamente. And I talk about purpose primarily, and I talk to people who live a purposeful life because I love to present examples, real-life examples of what that looks like, what that feels like, and how it's possible for everybody.

Leanne ElliottWhat I liked about this conversation, she's not selling a miracle cure or a silver bullet. She's not saying, quit your job and move to Bali.

Al ElliottNo, she's saying, just notice. Notice when you say, I am busy. Notice when you skip lunch. Notice when you don't drink water because you might need the toilet.

Leanne ElliottAnd maybe, just maybe, question whether that's really being responsible if you're just wearing busy as a badge of honour.

Al ElliottNow, look, I know some of you listening are thinking, oh, it must be nice to take a 6-month sabbatical. And of course you are right. But the recognition part, that doesn't actually cost anything.

Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. Even if you can't change everything, you can start noticing. And that really is the first step.

Al ElliottRight, that's it for today. Remember, you do deserve to be well. Not perfect, not optimised, just well.