Episode 235 · 25 September 2025 · 47:13
How to make work work for you, with Isabel Berwick, best-selling author of The Future-Proof Career
Featuring Isabel Berwick
How to make work work for you, with Isabel Berwick, best-selling author of The Future-Proof Career
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Intro — Isabel's background and why she wrote the book
Isabel's biggest career regret and what she learned
The 'Andrew Tates of the workplace' — social media's impact
Intergenerational shifts and workplace polarisation
interview#generational-differences#workplace-polarization#intergenerational
TikTok, quiet quitting, and 'lazy girl jobs'
How managers appeal to younger workers
The accidental manager crisis
The £2 coin story and the gulf between colleagues
interview#workplace-culture#colleague-relations#communication
Why listening is so hard (even for the experts)
interview#listening#communication#management
Teaching younger workers that silence is okay
Being prepared for unexpected management moments
interview#management#preparedness#leadership
The managers Isabel admires — and why
interview#management#admiration#leadership
The power of reverse mentoring
What younger workers bring to the table
How to manage people you really dislike
Anger and the workplace in a huge election year
interview#anger#workplace#election
Outro — where to get the book
Show notes
How to Make Work Work for You — with Isabel Berwick
Guest: Isabel Berwick — Financial Times work & careers editor, host of the Working It podcast, and bestselling author of The Future-Proof Career (now out in paperback).
What does it actually take to make work work for you — not just survive it, but shape it?
Isabel rejoins Al and Leanne to celebrate the paperback release of her bestselling book The Future-Proof Career. They dig into the "accidental manager" crisis — how people end up leading teams with zero training — and why listening, empathy, and trust matter more than traditional leadership traits.
They also unpack the social media forces reshaping workplace expectations, from "lazy girl jobs" to workplace polarisation, and explore the power of reverse mentoring, managing people you don't like, and what younger workers really need to get heard.
Top 3 Takeaways
- Listening is the hardest — and most underrated — management skill. Even Isabel admits she's "not that good at it." The key is setting aside time to genuinely listen, without jumping to the point or the conclusion.
- The accidental manager crisis is real. Most managers are promoted for their technical skills, not their people skills — and then left to sink or swim. If you're a manager, preparation for those unexpected human moments is everything.
- Reverse mentoring works both ways. Younger workers bring fresh perspectives that challenge corporate structures — and the best mentors learn just as much as they teach.
More From Isabel Berwick
- Book, The Future-Proof Career (paperback out now): amazon.co.uk/dp/0008607729
- Follow Isabel on X: twitter.com/isabelberwick
- Connect with Isabel on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/isabel-berwick-8b4922167
- Listen to the Working It podcast: ft.com/working-it
- Subscribe to Isabel's newsletter: ep.ft.com/newsletters/subscribe?newsletterIds=62039b7ea31d6577a31f70df
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work. As always, we are brought to you by the wonderful people at the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. We'll have a quick word from them before we dive into today's episode.
Al ElliottYes, we'll see you in a second. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Isabel BerwickNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. We have a very special episode for you today. Isabel Berwick, friend of the show, the incredible professional behind the Financial Times Working It brand. Her award-winning book, The Future-Proof Career, is out in paperback as of this month.
Al ElliottYeah. Isabel not only is a fabulous podcaster, we've learned a lot of lessons from Isabel. She's famous for being part of the FT. She's done lots of fancy jobs in, in the FT. Financial Times, if anyone doesn't know what the FT is. Of course you know what FT is. She's also just a really, really nice person and really honest. I sat down with her and I talked about her book and I asked her things which I suppose might not always, people might not always wanna ask. Like, for example, why did you write another business book? Does the world need another book on work?
Leanne ElliottSo let's go and join Isabel Berwick with Al.
Al ElliottAl, Al did the interview.
Leanne Elliotton this one.
Al ElliottI did. So we are joined here with the incredible Isabel Berwick, friend of the show. She's been on before, but we've never had a full episode with her, so I'm delighted to introduce her as she is the host and editor of Working It podcast. She's got an accompanying Working It newsletter. She's the former business editor of The Independent on Sunday, journalist for the Financial Times, editorial lead for Financial Times Women in Business Forum, author of a brand new book called The Future-Proof Career Why am I introducing you? You introduce yourself. Tell us who you are, what you do, and what you're famous for, Isabel.
Isabel BerwickSo, I'm Isabel Berwick. I am the host of the FT's Working It podcast about the workplace, management, leadership. I write the Working It newsletter, which goes out to FT subscribers every Wednesday. And my book, The Future-Proof Career: How to Thrive at Any Stage, is coming out in April.
Al ElliottWhat I liked about this is when I opened it up, I realized that it's split nicely into 2 sections, one for managers and one for people who are employees or potentially want to become managers. I thought that was really smart. So if anyone's listening and going, oh, does that apply to me? Yes, it will. There are thousands of books on work. Why did you feel the world needed another one?
Isabel BerwickI really did hesitate before I signed the book deal because my desk is so full of books about work and management and leadership. And I thought, what can I add to it? But I suppose what I am trying to do is write a book for people who are probably not the natural audience for a lot of those leadership and management books. It's firmly aimed at people who want to get on at work and enjoy it, but as a part of a fuller life, you know, you may not want to be the CEO, but your job is important to you and you want meaning. But you just want to learn how to get on with other people, get a pay rise, thrive. It's a book about work for mortals, really, for ordinary people.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Isabel BerwickI wrote it for myself because I've made so many errors in my career, and I just thought, where am I going to put some of this? I hesitate to call it wisdom, but life experience, I suppose. And hosting the podcast, I come into contact with so many amazing people and some of their words are in the book and some of my experiences are in the book. So it's a kind of, it's a mix of everything. It's a kind of everything I've learned about work.
Al ElliottIs there anything that sticks out at you as perhaps an error you did make, but in retrospect was quite a big learning moment?
Isabel BerwickYeah, I guess my biggest one is I have a lot of regret around the fact that when my kids were small, I took a step back with my career, or rather I didn't put myself forward for promotion or management jobs. Now I can sort of be slightly kind to myself and say culturally at that time, at the start of this century, it was much harder for women who wanted to work part-time to have senior corporate jobs. And I did have a terrible experience where I was essentially removed from a job because I was part-time, not because I was bad at it, And that really scarred me, but it took me a long time to step back up. I thought I wouldn't have enough bandwidth for my children and for work. And I regret that now because I think, you know, we can do everything. We don't have to be perfect in everything we do. And I think I was tripped up by partly my own perfectionism and partly by the cultural, you know, atmosphere of the day, but I think that's changed now. A lot of women now are able to work flexibly and, you know, fit work around family and caring commitments and other commitments. And not just women, people, men too. So, I hope I wouldn't have made the same mistake. No, but I don't know. I mean, we, we get, you carry a lot of guilt as a mother. When your kids are small, particularly. So I really don't know. And also, you know, I was able to pick my kids up from school 2 or 3 days a week, all the time they were at primary school. And that's, you know, in retrospect, that was a huge privilege.
Al ElliottYou mentioned something in the book which made me chuckle, and it was around this idea of the Andrew Tates of the world where white males are kind of feeling marginalized. Now, Obviously, all hilarity aside, it is a silly problem, but it's still a problem. So as someone as enlightened as yourself and someone who's seen, like in your book, you do talk about these stories of where workplace wasn't very friendly to women back in the day. How do you as a manager help these people, help these white males who are feeling marginalized to get over themselves?
Isabel BerwickI think this is A huge problem. And I think it's going to be the, one of the most pressing issues in workplaces. And I'm not sure if saying get over yourselves is, would be the way I would frame it because I think a better way to frame it is to say, when we talk about inclusion, that means everybody. And I think there have been some groups in workplaces, I mean, white men particularly, but not just. who have not felt included by inclusion. They feel that everyone else is getting special treatment. That may not be true, but that's how they feel. And actually how we feel is very separate from what's actually going on, and it's very important. So, I'm quite keen on this idea. It's a kind of new jargon word, but of belonging, which sort of moves on from inclusion somewhat and says everyone should be able to belong. But I think we still have some way to go in terms of the kind of conversations we have in workplaces and how people feel about workplaces. So, you know, I do not want DEI to go backwards, but I do want us to sort of look forward and say, actually, some of the people have not been part of these conversations. You know, there's been a sort of air of, if you are not with us, you are against us, and people have felt marginalized and silenced. And I think we are still in workplaces generally navigating how to bring everyone into the conversation. I do think things have moved in the last couple of years, but there's a lot more to go. But I think that if you look at these polls that show that young people, you know, young women tend to be very left-leaning and very liberal, and young men not, you know, there's a massive gulf. The FT had a chart that went viral a couple of weeks ago showing the gulf between attitudes between young men and young women. And there is this kind of risk of polarization with young men becoming more and more reactionary. Some people are outright misogynists. The Andrew Tates of this world have a huge influence. So, the impact of online culture has not really been taken account in the workplace yet. And I really hope that's something that people are going to be thinking about in the next few years. Otherwise, we might end up with polarized workplaces, and that's just not something that's going to be helpful for anyone.
Al ElliottThanks to social media, there does seem to be almost like it's got to be a them and us. So what's going on here?
Isabel BerwickThere is this massive intergenerational shift, I think, and that's, as you say, driven a lot by social media and TikTok particularly. I think it's part of the same thing as the polarization of men and women, for example? How do we not have generational polarization? And that's another part of the, I guess, the management piece for, you know, we can't fix society's problems in workplaces, but we can make workplaces places where everyone feels that they have a role and they belong. It might not be where your best friends are. You may not get on with your colleagues. But I suppose what I have always tried to do is suggest ways in which we can make things better. I mean, it might not be a fantastic solution, but any improvement is an improvement. So for those of us who are in Gen X, we can try to understand where Gen Z are coming from. And that might involve looking at TikTok, as I do quite a lot. And it might also involve, as I write in the book, not putting a full stop on the end of your texts and emails, which they find hostile. And from a Gen Z point of view, it might be, you know, acknowledging there are different ways to do things, or maybe learning to listen to people's experiences. But that's not a Gen Z thing. That's a youth thing. You know, it's always been the same in workplaces. I think what has shifted is that when you and I were probably first in a workplace, we expected not to be heard. You know, it was sort of Do your job and just be grateful for it. And actually, it's quite good that, I think it's great that Gen Z are not grateful for their jobs because there's a lot of soul searching that hasn't been done in workplaces that really should be. So actually, it's keeping us on our toes and saying, how can we improve? I'm not saying they're right all the time because there are some aspects of, you know, youth culture that I think are always going to be problematic for older people. It's not a, it's not a right now, this minute thing. I find the speed with which some younger people expect their careers to progress quite alarming because actually there's no substitute for experience. And you need to get, you know, I've heard of lots of instances of people with trainees who are asking for better tasks or more meaningful work without having mastered the basics. So, I think internet culture, you know, has given everyone this expectation that we can all have purposeful work that makes, that fulfills us. But actually, sometimes there is grunt work that still needs to be done. We have to lay the foundations for our careers. And I suppose what I hope doesn't get lost is the need to work hard and be good at our jobs. I don't think that will end, but I think there are some You know, part of the intergenerational pressure is a pressure from below for rapid acceleration. And that's not the fault of people in Gen Z. It's what they've consumed their whole lives from the internet. You know, we're all about self-optimization, self-actualization. The whole, the podcast culture is so heavily weighted towards being the best version of ourselves, that is actually quite a lot of pressure on everybody, I think.
Al ElliottThere does seem to be a little bit of resentment. I have to hold my hands up and feel a little bit of resentment myself towards the younger generations. Like, when I started out in management in the pub sector, Allied Domecq back in the day, 70-hour work weeks were common. I signed the opt-out of the Working Time Directive whenever that came in. Was it '98, '99? Yeah. So, I can see the argument of like, why should the younger generation have it easy? They should have bagel stations. They should have massages and still expect the same results for half as much work.
Isabel BerwickI think I would question whether they're expecting to do half as much work, especially when you've got, you know, when you've got younger people going into what are called greedy jobs, you know, the law, consulting, investment banking. You know, these are jobs that take up your whole life. You don't have work-life balance. So they're, I think they're going in with their eyes open, but I think surely it benefits all of us. You know, that, that group of young Goldman Sachs trainees did a presentation a couple of years ago saying, look, we've had enough. We're doing these 70, 80-hour weeks. And they actually presented to senior staff about why that needed to stop. Now, I don't know what happened in that instance, but that's an example of how maybe everyone could benefit. From working a little bit less. I think, I'm sure everything's going to come to a kind of equilibrium in the middle. So when massive change happens, you know, we all go over here and then, or some people go over here, but actually I think it tends more towards the middle. So I hope that what Gen Z will bring is a recalibration of workplaces that benefits everyone. But I suppose the bottom line is if they don't like it, they'll leave. I think all the stats show that Gen Z are much less loyal than even young millennials. They will job hop. They don't care. They will find another job. So if they don't like what you're offering, they'll go. And actually that's quite refreshing because it means, I mean, it's annoying for managers, but it means that the people who stay are bought into the corporate culture and you can bring them on board, talk to them, learn from them. They can learn from you. So I think there's a kind of post-pandemic leveling out going on at the moment. I think it'll settle down.
Al ElliottSo in your book, you talk about spending a lot of time on TikTok. I'm guessing not learning dance moves. I'm guessing just looking to see what's going on. What was there anything that surprised you about their attitudes to work as a work expert such as yourself?
Isabel BerwickYeah, I think it's a place to vent.
Al ElliottRight.
Isabel BerwickSo there's a lot, you know, the whole, the quiet quitting, lazy girl jobs. All of those trends started on TikTok and that's not a surprise. I think when we were young, when all of us were young, we probably had shit jobs and shit managers. The difference now is that people can go on TikTok and vent about it. And why not? You know? And some of them are really funny. I find it really funny. And I think what I like about TikTok is that it brings a kind of humor that I think has been lacking. I mean, much as I love LinkedIn, it can be quite a humorless place. TikTok is, you know, work is part of our lives. And I guess this is part of what I was trying to do in the book. You know, work is so baked into our lives and yet sometimes it's over here at a distance. You know, we don't count it as our real life. And TikTok is, I think, integrating real life into our sense of humor, into who we are as people. And even if we're Gen X, as I am too, We can look at that and think, yes, that's absolutely, that's really funny. You know, the crappy manager who gives you 15 extra tasks at 5:29. And on TikTok, they'll just say, no, you know, pick up their Stanley Cup and leave. So it's kind of inspiring, actually. I sort of, I like the attitude.
Al ElliottI think you just picked on a really good point there from a managerial point of view, or from an organizational point of view. I remember the, um, Google used to be called the database of intentions. Um, and it was great for researching what people wanted next. Whereas it seems now you've just made me think that TikTok is almost like the database of reactions. And it's a great way to find out what you're doing, what generally we're doing wrong as managers. Was there anything that you, any sort of recurring themes that managers should be aware of?
Isabel BerwickI think it is this respecting of boundaries. Which is where quiet quitting came from. You know, you're not actually quitting, you're just working the hours that you are paid for and not more. And I think the idea that you should go the extra mile just because you should go the extra mile has been rendered redundant by the quiet quitting trend. I mean, that's passed somewhat, but when you go on TikTok and you see what people think about their managers, and these are generally in sort of service jobs or admin jobs, office jobs, sort of entry-level jobs, you know, why you are just paid for the time you're paid for. You've talked about your time in the pub, but if you're the manager, that's a slightly different thing from being the person who's being asked to do the, you know, pulling the pints or the grunt work as it often is on TikTok. So yeah, I just think what, be aware that younger people have very different boundaries and we may not agree with it. That might, may go against all of our hard-earned tendencies to want to please our bosses. But I think generationally, boss pleasing is possibly a thing of the past, particularly in those kinds of jobs.
Al ElliottHow do managers appeal to the younger generation and get them to go the extra mile? Or is that just the wrong way of looking at it?
Isabel BerwickI think that people, I think you're right. People will go the extra mile once they've bought into the culture of the company. So, if you're in a professional, you know, knowledge worker type of job, the kind of people that are going into those jobs do want to buy in. They do want to go the extra mile. But I think there is something to be said around boundary setting or as a thing that wasn't a thing when managers who were in their 40s and 50s were young. And even if you don't do anything about it, just to be aware of it, And actually not to exploit your workers, you know, but to gain their trust, to communicate well, to listen to them. I think all of these are skills for the ages and it's not particularly generational, but it will help enormously with your younger employees that you're aware of where that generation is coming from. But I think you're right. You know, people going into the law or consulting or any of these things are going to be prepared for long hours culture. They have to be.
Al ElliottAnd if they don't want You use this phrase in the book, which I love, called the accidental manager. I want to know, first of all, what is it? And secondly, how would we recognize an accidental manager?
Isabel BerwickOkay. So it's not my phrase. It's what it's, um, I think the Chartered Management Institute came up with it and it's great. So an accidental manager is someone who hasn't had any training to be a manager. And that's a lot of people, something like 70 or 80% of managers haven't had any training. So, you know, a lot of jobs, you're good at your job and you get promoted. But what, why does that mean you're going to be a good manager? So, the sign of an accidental manager is someone who hasn't had any training, has no idea about how to manage people as distinct from do the job properly. And I think that the managing of people part of it is, has often been forgotten, particularly, I think British, the British are particularly bad at this actually. And it also plays into why our productivity is so low, because we invest so little in management that we don't think about the impact that has on how well people work. So an accidental manager is probably not a great communicator. They're probably not listening to what their staff say. They're probably telling rather than listening and cooperating. So, one attribute of a very inexperienced or insecure manager is micromanaging, which is a very common thing. So, a micromanager doesn't trust the team, and that might not be because the team aren't trustworthy or good at their jobs. It's just that the manager hasn't learned how to let go. Hasn't, you know, if you've been doing a job really well and then you get made a manager, You still, you've still got it in you to be wanting to control how that job is done. And you just take that into your management role. But that's such a counterproductive way to, I mean, I've had some appalling micromanagers in my time and it's such a counterproductive way to work. It destroys you because your mental health will be affected and it destroys the morale of the team because it feels like they're Being, you know, surveilled all the time. Early in my career, in the late '90s, when management was actually not very much of a thing, you know, I had one manager who trusted me so little that when, when they were off sick, I had to travel to their house on the other side of London to visit them in their house and show them what I was doing. I mean, I kind of laugh about it now, but You know, the whole, the whole situation. I mean, you know, I made a cup of tea and I took cake and stuff, but that was a very strange relationship. I was, you know, quite young. I was in my 20s and my manager was much older. But to invite your subordinate around to your house when you are sick to check up on them is, I think, something that wouldn't happen now. Let's put it that way. When we are young in our careers and we don't have a lot of experience, What is it that, how do we know what is right and what's wrong? I mean, the internet gives a little more, and this was pre, I mean, not pre, properly pre-internet, but you know, before the world of careers online and LinkedIn, I had no idea. None of us had any idea what else was going on in the world. So if that was what my boss said was normal, Okay, so we're gonna take a really quick break.
Al ElliottWe're back in a few seconds with more from the wonderful Isabel.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are dads. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Isabel BerwickUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake fandoms for their artists. Fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make beer taste better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Isabel BerwickSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Let's rejoin the interview.
Al ElliottThere's a story, horrific, a horrific story in your, in your book about a manager and £2 coins. Which we won't go into here, but, um, that's another example.
Isabel BerwickOh, not a manager, actually, just a colleague.
Al ElliottJust a colleague. Uh, that's just another, and I think you should buy the book just for that story because it is just pretty horrific. But also, like you say, there's, there's no, there was nothing to compare it to. So.
Isabel BerwickHonestly, we were just living in a kind of vacuum. And I think that's part of the gulf that we don't really think about generationally. People in Gen X, you know, I'm in my 50s. Now, people in their 40s and 50s and 60s didn't grow up with the internet. So we have a worldview that at a very profound level is very different from that of our children and even people in their late 30s, actually. So we don't think about it that often, but it's really profound and it is part of our DNA, really. That we grew up before the online world and that makes your outlook very profoundly different.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Yeah, it does. Um, just reminds me of, we had another guest on who was talking about, um, who's kind of in the same bracket as we are. And he was saying that the difference is that there was so much more, um, culpability when you were a kid in that if you were caught on the street doing something naughty, someone knew your mum or your dad.
Isabel BerwickYeah. But I wonder if we're going back to that, you know, post-pandemic with people working from home more. People are at home a lot more. You know, we had that whole 20 or 30 years where a lot of women particularly were out at work all the time. And the community aspect of things got a bit lost, and plus the rise of the internet. And now men and women are at home a lot more. People get a lot more involved in their communities. So I wondered if we might go back to some of that more old-fashioned Uh, kind of way of living.
Al ElliottI think one of the key themes of what goes through, certainly in the second part of the book, but I'm pretty sure in the first part as well, is communication. And it's a bit trite to say communication is key, but you express it so perfectly. And one of the things I really like about what you said was that actually listening is probably more important, the most important part of, um, of communication. So what are managers getting wrong with the whole idea of listening?
Isabel BerwickI think listening is really hard and I'm really not that good at it myself. And I'm on this kind of mission, partly through writing the book and talking to interesting people about listening, partly through doing the podcast. I think we have underestimated so profoundly the difficulty of listening. It is a skill that has to be learned and nobody's been teaching it. And in workplaces where we're on deadlines and it's, you know, you might be harried. So the single, I've heard this over and over again, the single most important thing that managers can do is give time every week to each of their reports. So, you know, talk to someone every week. And this is particularly relevant in terms of mental health issues or, you know, people being unhappy in some respects, and you can't fix it as a manager. But it's a kind of early warning system and there's so much pressure on managers now. You know, they have to act as coaches, therapists, as well as occasionally disciplinarians. And that's a lot of pressure. But if you can spend time every week with each person who is your report, it doesn't even have to be completely work-focused. I mean, it might be cheesy in your particular work context, but Just finding out how people are is so important because I suppose the flip side of listening is that, as someone said to me, everyone wants to be heard. So everyone, sometimes people want to just vent, they want to just talk, or maybe they don't want to talk. And quite often you can't do anything about it, but you can listen to what they're saying. And that is, I hope I haven't underestimated how hard that is. Because when I was writing the book, It was when I was at the beginning of trying to listen better, and I'm still trying to listen better, and I've still really struggled. So, I think this is the biggest challenge in workplaces is that good communication and good listening is at the root of everything, and yet nobody teaches it. Very few people talk about it, or they talk about it in a very trite way. How are we going to get better at it? It takes a lot of time, and that's something that's in very short supply.
Al ElliottThere's the part that you say about people, about setting aside time to actually listen to people, but then there's also the part which I think a lot of people find difficult, which is setting aside within that conversation, setting aside the silence required to allow someone to expand on a particular point. So you say you are halfway through or 3 quarters of the way through your journey of becoming a great listener. What is it that you've developed or learned on your journey so far that other people might be able to emulate?
Isabel BerwickSo what I find particularly hard is that I'm always looking for the point or the conclusion or the thing that I'm going to take from whatever the person's saying. It's a sort of distillation. And I think that is probably because I'm a journalist and all of our conversations are about what am I getting? They're extractive conversations. What am I getting from you. I might be interested in you, but I'm getting something. So my journey so far has been about letting go of that desire to extract meaning. And when you extract meaning, you then think, what is the next thing that I'm going to do with this piece of information? Or what is the next thing I'm going to say? So letting go of extraction and letting go of a pre- A fixed idea of what I'm going to say next. That's as far as I've got. I can't say I'm brilliant at it. I went on a leadership course a couple of weeks ago, which was wonderful, and I met some amazing people, but it taught me more about my own shortcomings. That, that has been, I think if anyone listening has the chance to go on any sort of course and just be aware of how they're listening. That's a really great start. Or even just, you know, in conversations with friends, just being more aware of how you're listening and letting go of the desire to make meaning and to think of what you're going to say next. That's as far as I've got so far. But what you said about holding space, you know, that the Samaritans do, allowing silence, that's, I think, incredibly hard. Particularly in a work context, because space can be uncomfortable, can't it? I haven't got to the point where you think, how do I bring silence into this at work? Because it just seems awkward often. But I think it's something we, we are, if we're serious about listening and if we're serious about some of the things we talked about earlier about including people whose views we might not agree with, We have to allow for silence.
Al ElliottSo how do we fix this? How do we tell the young generation that silence is actually all right and it's okay to not know what to say next?
Isabel BerwickI think that's really hard because you are right, social media is all about filling the void completely all the time, 24/7 if you want. I think in workplaces we might have a really good opportunity to expand on silence. Because often you are grappling with quite difficult things. It might be a process thing, it might be a psychological thing, but I think as managers, there's a really good chance to just allow people to think. There were some companies, is it Amazon or Google? One of the big tech companies used, and possibly still does, sends people meeting agendas in advance and then There's just a bit of silence at the start of the meeting while you all think about it. And I think building silence into our workday might be a brilliant thing. I know it's an aspirational thing, and as you say, hard for younger generations to do. But I suppose on the flip side of what the always-on social media thing, for a lot of younger people, wellness and taking care of themselves, self-care is very big. And part of that often is a meditation practice or a stillness practice or a gratitude practice. And if you can link that kind of impulse to the workplace and say, actually, we're just going to take a pause, that might be, that might be a way in because a lot of people do those things now. And I, I think they're great for, for wellbeing. I'm quite bad at meditation. I have tried it a few times. But it's incredibly popular, especially with younger cohorts, and that might be the way in.
Al ElliottYou have a bit in your book which I've not seen before, and it says, if you're a manager, how do you make your manager listen to you? There's a hot— if you listen to this, you should definitely go and read the book because there's a great section on that. But what are the highlights of that section?
Isabel BerwickI think it's about being prepared, actually, having something at your fingertips for those unexpected moments with your manager. Because it's quite hard to get face time. I mean, I'm talking in real life here with your, someone who's quite high, you know, higher up in the hierarchy. And I do think there's something to be said for those unexpected moments. So there's the unexpected moment, you know, you're making a coffee, your boss is in the kitchen too, that kind of moment. Have something there that you can say. that you're ready for, preferably something that your team has done. You know, you don't have to self-aggrandize if that's not what you're about, or just ask, you know, ask a quite— ask an ordinary question. They're people too. And the second part of getting bosses to listen is to be quite intentional about networking, which sounds really cynical, but I don't mean it in that way. I mean, How can you make the most of the limited time that you might have with a boss? Just think about how, not, I guess it's about preparation so you don't panic. And I've suffered from this a lot in my life, you know, being quite panicky about talking to senior people. And I think there are a lot of tricks you can learn around preparation that allow you to stop being panicky. And allow you to say something that makes sense to them. And even if it doesn't really make sense, they might remember you. Although I was recording a podcast this week, and this is not in the book, but it's interesting. We were talking about people pleasing and about the wrong way to talk to people higher up the food chain than you in terms of taking on tasks that you can't really do. You haven't got the capacity for in order, because you think there's going to be some sort of reward for you further down the line. So it's a sort of brown-nosing. So that, I guess that's the, that's the wrong way to try to project yourself upwards.
Al ElliottI think I read in your book that there was a particular manager or number of managers who you admire and you learned a lot from. So, I mean, can you maybe, I don't know whether you can tell me who they are, but I'd like to learn a bit about who taught you how to be a great manager.
Isabel BerwickYeah. So I've had some really great managers. At the FT and elsewhere, I've been really lucky, but I think they've been people that have been slightly ahead of me in terms of their life stage, often. Not always, but I had one particular manager called Debbie Hargreaves when I were— when I had very young children, and she had 3 children herself. She had a very senior job at the FT, and she was a very good journalist. But she was also showing, modeling that you could have 3 kids and be a great journalist and be a great manager and be a really interesting, funny, and kind human being. So for me, I'm someone who likes to look up to a manager. I have a, um, probably because of my generation, I have a fairly sort of old-fashioned view of setting an example, I guess, while also being human and humane. So I think she was someone who really made a big impression on me and actually really helped to keep me in the workforce at a time when I was struggling to manage, you know, having, having kids and a big job on a national newspaper. It's hard, but she'd already done it and she modeled it brilliantly.
Al ElliottYou talked in your book about reverse mentoring. Um, so was that kind of, was there a symbiotic relationship between you and was it Debbie, you said?
Isabel BerwickOh, I very much doubt it. I really like reverse mentoring. I think it's one of these things that's quite new and it wouldn't ever have been a thing when I was young, but I love the idea of it and I can see how it's becoming much more popular. I wish it had been a thing, but I'm not sure I feel that I didn't have very much to offer. When I was younger, but that's really probably wrong. And I think one of the good things about younger people now is that I think they do have quite a robust sense of self-worth often. And I think that's good. I mean, reverse mentoring started as, you know, young people showing managers how to use social media often. And it's, and it's progressed way beyond that. And the best sort of reverse mentoring is often younger people in workforces who come from diverse backgrounds, reverse mentoring senior executives who are often, although not exclusively, white men. And so it's a bringing of life perspective as well as what you can learn in terms of the workplace or social media. So it's a much richer Kind of experience, or it should be. And I've talked to some people who've had really great experiences with reverse mentoring. I would, you know, I've got a mentee here at the FT who's in her late 20s, and I learn a huge amount from her.
Al ElliottThe way you spoke then about younger Isabel and the, oh, I'm not sure I've got much. She learned much from me, sounded very British Gen X modesty. Which doesn't sound like it was. I mean, you've just said that you learned a lot from your mentees. So what would you say to the younger Isabel who doesn't think they've got anything to offer to someone older?
Isabel BerwickUh, I would say, give yourself a shake. You know what I mean? It's like, um, it's very difficult to throw back, isn't it though? Because the society and the workplace was so different. You know, it's very hard to explain now. The constraints that were on younger people in the '90s and presumably before then. I think it wasn't until probably, I think Julia Hobsbawm, the workplace commentator, has made these distinctions between different eras of the office. And when I, and probably you, started our careers, we were still fundamentally in the same era as the '80s. And Things hadn't really moved on. And I don't think I can really project back and say, oh my God, you know, I suppose what I did have to say was, you know, when you're young, you can feel quite lost. And I think the, what would have been lovely would have been to have a much closer relationship with older colleagues and a more kind of mentoring or guiding relationship. It was a bit sink or swim when I started. You were expected to know how to do it. And if you failed, you were chastised.
Al ElliottYeah.
Isabel BerwickWhereas I like to think now there's a lot more guidance. So what I would have liked when I was younger would have been to have a mentor. And I mean, one when I was in my very early 20s in my first jobs, and I, that just wasn't a thing.
Al ElliottPeople who are younger might feel they don't have anything to, to contribute, but I think they do. They have so much. I mean, is there a message you can give to someone out there who might be feeling the same self-confidence you You might be, might've felt back then going, I don't really know I've got much to offer, but can you empower them a little bit?
Isabel BerwickBecause you're bringing a fresh perspective. Exactly. You know, there are this idea of corporate structures, particularly in a corporate environment, there is an element of this is how we've always done it, or this is the easiest way to do it. So a fresh eye, whatever your age actually, is fascinating. I mean, I had an amazing experience when I first started doing the podcast. I was working with an external production company. Who were coming into the FT where I've worked for 20 years and their ideas were so fresh and different and they were, you know, they weren't coming from a big corporate, they were coming from a startup podcast production company and they had a huge amount to teach me about working in different ways. You know, they used Asana and, you know, process tools. In a way that I'd never seen before. And I really learned a lot. So when you've got someone coming into your workplace who's got experience somewhere else, what are the key elements of that that you can pick out for your workplace? And when you've got a grad trainee coming in, what are the key elements of their outlook that they're bringing that you could capture for your workplace? It's not just about process, it's about culture and outlook, but I think process is kind of under undertalked about. The way that people do things in different companies is a very rich source of enlightenment and innovation.
Al ElliottHow do you manage people you really, really dislike?
Isabel BerwickI really wanted to write about this because I think this is one of the great undertalked about things at work. I think in the rest of our lives, we allow ourselves to not like people or accept that other people don't like us, but somehow in workplaces, there's a kind of blandness. And it's not really discussed unless someone is, you know, actively obnoxious, but sometimes it's not that. Sometimes it's that your colleagues might trigger something in you that you're not even aware of. And I think what I've learned from writing the book and doing the podcast and talking to psychotherapists and others, is that all of this comes from our own childhoods. So I suppose what I've learned is to look at what we as individuals are bringing to that relationship, where there is someone that you, that really just sort of gives you the ick or you don't get on with. What is it that you're bringing? Who do they remind you of? And it's almost always something from early childhood. And even by acknowledging that, it helps you to move to the next level. Of trying to deal with it in a kind of adult-to-adult way rather than reacting as a, in a childish way. And we see a lot of childish behavior in offices that, um, a lot of it goes unreported, obviously, but we've all had experiences of where people just are behaving unbelievably petulantly. And it all goes down to something really quite profound that we're probably not acknowledging. So I'd just like to see a bit more acknowledgement of of what we are all bringing to the party rather than focusing on the people we don't like.
Al ElliottDo you still think that anger's gonna be a big problem in the workplace?
Isabel BerwickYes, huge. And I think half the world's democracies are going to the polls this year. This is a huge year in terms of political polarization, polarization in society, a lot of economic pressures globally. People are not happy in the wider world. And in fact, I've just interviewed the author of a book called Languishing, which is a wonderful phrase. You know, a lot of people are languishing. They're not depressed, but they are not happy. They are not thriving or flourishing. Now, don't tell me that you're— those people are not going in, you know, they're going into workplaces and bringing all of that. And so when you're already in a bad place, The crappy stuff that happens in workplaces is going to set you off because the workplace is quite a boundaried place and it's sometimes okay to say, to be angry at a colleague. You know, you might not go too far, but you know, you can really lose your rag in a workplace. And I think the figures are just going up and up. And I don't really know what to say to managers apart from be aware of it in yourself and in others because I don't know where this is going to end. I think the external pressures on us, when we, when we walk through those revolving doors into our workplaces, we're bringing them with us. And that's going to have a massive knock-on effect. And the news cycle, the news is so depressing, the overwhelm that people feel from watching the news, they're bringing that to work and they may be directly affected by Ukraine, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in the Middle East. All of these things are just bubbling under, and sometimes they bubble over.
Leanne ElliottThat was the incredible Isabel Berwick. What an absolute legend. Her book, The Future-Proof Career, is now out in paperback. If you haven't got it already, go and buy it. If you have got the hardback, go and get the paperback as well. Have the whole set.
Al ElliottIf you have already got the paperback, go and get another one. Give it away. Give it away to a friend. I wish we were on commission here.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I know. Oh, she has an audiobook as well.
Al ElliottThere you go.
Leanne ElliottThere you go. Um, it is such a great book. It asks things like, will AI replace, replace us? Is my toxic boss an actual narcissist? Are full stops in emails a sign of hostility? How do I manage intergenerational tension and not get canceled? She covers so many topics in this book. It is jam-packed. That and more. The 4-Day Workweek, microdosing for creativity. Such an interesting area that is. Um, extended paternity, habit changing to boost productivity. Meaningful diversity talk. Honestly, it's, it has everything about organisational life and the future of work in there. It is a bestseller for a reason. Go and get it. I will leave a link in the show notes.
Al ElliottSo we will see you on Tuesday. If you haven't subscribed, please consider subscribing because it does help other people find the show and also gives us a little dopamine hit when we see a new subscriber.
Leanne ElliottIndeed it does. We will see you on Tuesday.
Al ElliottBye-bye.