Episode 242 · 21 October 2025 · 49:04
Amazon sacks HR, bosses blame Gen Z and new-job red flags. PLUS! Does your vibe really attract your tribe?
Amazon sacks HR, bosses blame Gen Z and new-job red flags. PLUS! Does your vibe really attract your tribe?
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Intro — coming up this week in work
news roundup#podcast-intro#workplace-news
Six ways Gen Z are 'ruining' the workplace
news roundup#gen-z#workplace-culture#multigenerational-workforce
The 40 jobs most at risk from AI
news roundup#ai#job-market#automation
Truth or Lie — 'Your vibe attracts your tribe'
truth or lie#myth-busting#workplace-culture#company-culture
Workplace Surgery — remote employee with two jobs
workplace surgery#remote-work#moonlighting#employee-relations
Workplace Surgery — motivating your team to upskill
workplace surgery#upskilling#employee-motivation#training
Workplace Surgery — new job full of red flags
workplace surgery#job-search#red-flags#onboarding
Show notes
Amazon Sacks HR, Bosses Blame Gen Z & New-Job Red Flags — Plus: Does Your Vibe Really Attract Your Tribe?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why Amazon is cutting up to 15% of its HR division, why The Telegraph is blaming Gen Z for everything from bare feet to dodged phone calls, and which jobs Microsoft's AI analysis says are most at risk. Plus, in Truth or Lie: does your vibe really attract your tribe?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Are Gen Z really ruining the workplace? The Telegraph claims junior staff are dodging phone calls, dressing down, wearing noise-cancelling headphones, and pushing back on managers — with new data suggesting around 70% of managers are struggling to handle younger workers. But is this generational chaos or just cultural evolution? Leanne breaks down what's really going on when work expectations clash across age groups — and why the "Gen X would never" narrative is getting old. Source → (The Telegraph – Six ways Gen Z are "ruining" the workplace)
2. The 40 jobs AI might replace (and 40 it can't) Microsoft analysed 200,000 Copilot conversations to rank which jobs are most at risk from AI. Translators and interpreters top the list at 98%, coders at 90%, and even radio DJs at 74%. But the real story isn't about job loss — it's about job evolution. Al explores how automation could actually create more work, not less, and why the "safe" list might surprise you (hello, floor sanders). Source → (Sky News – The 40 jobs most at risk from AI)
3. Amazon's AI-fuelled HR layoffs Amazon is reportedly cutting up to 15% of its HR division as CEO Andy Jassy doubles down on AI investment. Fortune reports that the People Experience & Technology team (PXT) is bearing the brunt. Al and Leanne unpack what happens to trust, culture, and psychological safety when "learn AI or be left behind" becomes company policy — and why empathy at scale is so hard for our brains to compute. Source → (Fortune – Amazon plans new round of layoffs)
🧠 Truth or Lie: "Your Vibe Attracts Your Tribe"
Leanne puts the popular phrase to the test — and it turns out the science mostly backs it up. From the "similar-to-me effect" to homophily and the chameleon effect, research consistently shows we gravitate toward people who mirror us, and that we even become more like the people we surround ourselves with. But there's a dark side: your vibe also repels your non-tribe, and overdoing the mimicry can backfire spectacularly.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Remote work: "I think one of my remote employees is working two full-time jobs. What should I do?"
- Upskilling: "How do I motivate my team to actually upskill?"
- New job: "I've just started a new job full of red flags. Do I fix it or flee?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottA new Telegraph article claims 70% of managers can't handle younger workers. Our younger workers apparently are ruining offices by avoiding phone calls, wearing headphones, and setting boundaries. We'll look at what's really happening when generations clash over workplace norms.
Al ElliottAlso this week, Microsoft analysed 200,000 AI conversations with their Copilot chat app. And they mapped out which jobs face extinction. We'll tell you exactly which jobs are going to be definitely going and which jobs are definitely safe.
Leanne ElliottAnd in truth or lie, your vibe attracts your tribe. We heard this at an event in Sarajevo last week, and everyone nodded along. But when we dig into the research, is the reality more complex than the Instagram quote suggests? This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo let's get into it right after a quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, Support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. Hello to all the new friends we met in Sarajevo.
Leanne ElliottHello.
Al ElliottYeah, we went up to an event by Yasmin Elitz. Um, a really cool guy.
Leanne ElliottAlić.
Al ElliottYes, sorry, we're still getting used to the Cs in the, in the Bosnian alphabet. There are, there are, and apparently the last 2 are different, but he has me in Alić. Uh, yeah, so if you've never heard of him, well, you've probably seen his stuff. He's, he's like the LinkedIn guy. He's amazing. Anyway, so we're part of his community, so check out our LinkedIn stuff coming up because, uh, yeah, there's going to be some changes. Anyway, it is Leanne's favorite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottSure is, Al. Cue the jingle. Okay, Lee, what 6 ways Gen Z are ruining the workplace.
Al ElliottOh God, not another. It's always the Gen Zs. Why don't we do 6 ways that Generation X are ruining the workplace, or 6 ways that boomers are ruining, ruining our lives? Mind you, I suppose there probably are plenty of articles about that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, well, I think Gen Z do seem to be getting the— a lot of attention, don't they?
Al ElliottThe shitty end of the stick, I think, is what we say.
Leanne ElliottIndeed, indeed. Yeah, the, uh, the other end of the stick. I would like to see some articles about Gen X actually, because you don't hear much about them, but you know, they're the ones pulling— actually, the Silent Generation's the one above Boomers.
Al ElliottOh, are they? Sorry, I thought that was the same thing. All right, sorry, you were in the middle of it. You were in mid-flow.
Leanne ElliottFine, talk over me, Al.
Al ElliottFine. Woman, shush. A man is talking here. Obviously, obviously I'm joking, just in case there's people who listened.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, before we get cancelled again, Al, honestly, um, The Telegraph this week has claimed that junior staff with unrealistic expectations are rewriting the rules of office life and leaving their senior colleagues— this word was actually in the article— baffled.
Al ElliottThat's a good word, that.
Leanne ElliottIt is a good word. So the article cites new data showing that around 70% of managers are struggling to handle younger employees because of what they describe as different attitudes to authority and work.
Al ElliottHow dare they push back?
Leanne ElliottHow dare they? So the paper outlines 6 key complaints. Al, do you want to have a guess, or would you like to pick a number between 1 and 6? How do you want to play this Gen Z bashing game?
Al ElliottI'm gonna pick a number just because I remember at the top we did say a couple of things, so I think one of those might be on there. So I'm gonna go with number 3.
Leanne ElliottNumber 3, wearing noise-canceling headphones. Older colleagues see it as antisocial, while younger staff argue it helps them concentrate.
Al ElliottI think that's fair enough. Yeah, it's to drown out your bullshit, Barry. 45-year-old Barry in accounts who just wants to tell you about what he watched on terrestrial TV last night and And he's gonna have to wait a week for the next episode to drop. Yeah. Whereas we've all watched it on YouTube. I say we as if I'm like Gen Z or younger worker.
Leanne ElliottI'm still getting over that you said dropped.
Al ElliottDropped? Is that, is that a thing? What?
Leanne ElliottWhat? No, it is. I'm just, just, you're too old to use it.
Al ElliottDid I actually use a younger person word? Okay, boomer.
Leanne ElliottDo you wanna pick another one?
Al ElliottUh, 4.
Leanne ElliottNumber 4, dressing down. Manager described office outfits more suited to the beach, including miniskirts, bare feet, and leather trousers. Bare feet is unacceptable.
Al ElliottNo. That's just dirty. That's nasty, nasty work, that. Yeah. Feet are nasty anyway. I'm glad they're about as far away from my, from my head as they possibly can be, 'cause my feet particularly are nasty. We won't get into that. Maybe, maybe we should do a Truth, Lies and Work after hours and tell 'em about what happened in Thailand to my feet. Anyway. Mm-hmm. No, do you know what? Maybe I am gonna come down on the, on the boomer side of this by saying miniskirts in the office, I'm not sure about that. Just as if it was like a guy who was wearing like a vest top, you know, those bromad type things.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI wouldn't think that was very good, but I don't mind if someone wears like a polo shirt or a t-shirt or something, or, you know, that wouldn't bother me.
Leanne ElliottNo, no, absolutely. And also, if you've got a dress code, then enforce said dress code. If you don't, get one or get on with it, you know what I mean? And also, why is it always about the women? Oh, the women are wearing short skirts. That's— that's— would you— if you weren't such a dirty perv, Barry, maybe you wouldn't notice that Sandra's walked in with a short skirt on today, do you know what I mean?
Al ElliottYeah, but Barry's in a loveless marriage and, uh, And he's got a very dodgy internet search history. He doesn't know how incognito works. Okay, so can we quickly go through? I wanna pick 2 numbers if that's okay. I wanna go 1 and 2 because I wanna see what number 1 is.
Leanne ElliottDodging phone calls. So older managers say younger staff avoid calls or stay silent when they answer. One 47-year-old marketing executive— was this you, Al? described calling a candidate for an interview only to hear breathing on the other end. Recruitment director Habiba Khatun from Robert Walters— is that a recruitment firm? I'm not sure—
Al ElliottThat's not.
Leanne Elliotttold The Telegraph this generation, this generation has grown up messaging instead of talking, and that important skill is being lost. Here's an idea: train them. Do you know what I mean? It's one of those things, right? It was no problem for the boomers to have to go to specialist training to learn how to use the internet and email because that was like, oh, the world's changed and blah blah. So why is it so outrageous that Gen Z are maybe coming into our workforce and need some coaching around that, need some training around how to talk over the phone, how to have these conversations, and why in some situations this immediate phone call communication might be preferable in the workplace?
Al ElliottOkay, I agree with the second part of that. I, I'm gonna push back on saying that we should run, um, we should run a 3-day course on how to answer the Because it's like when the internet came in and all the boomers and the people at my age, really, I think I was about 20 when the internet came in, then yeah, it's like it's a brand new technology. Whereas if you watch any kind of TV, people answer the phone all the time and very few people in TV will answer the phone and just go— they're just not gonna do it. Everyone knows you pick up the phone, you go, hello.
Leanne ElliottThat's what you do. Yeah. I mean, but to be fair, this is one time a candidate Has done this. I think it's more about not just answering the phone, is it? It's about how— what are they afraid of? Why don't they want to talk on the phone? Is it they're not used to dealing with confrontation and they're not sure about having to think on their feet quickly?
Al ElliottMm.
Leanne ElliottAre they not— do you know what I mean? I am a very reflective thinker. So if you ask me a question, particularly work-based, like my manager would, I'd be like, hmm. And then he'd just say, I'll leave that with you. Or, you know what I'm gonna say? Give me— can I come back to you, have a think about it? I'll come back to you later on. If you don't know that that's okay, there could be a panic of like, well, I'm not gonna answer the phone because I don't know how to respond. Number 2 is demanding safe spaces. How dare they? And then we also had fixating on woke causes and waltzing in late and walking out early. They're the 6 things anyway causing frustration, misunderstanding.
Al ElliottYou've had enough, haven't you?
Leanne ElliottI'm just so tired of the same argument going round and round and round and round. Reality is we have much more in common. than, than we want to believe that we do. I don't think it's unreasonable for young people to want to be in safe spaces, want access to career counsellors or mental health practitioners. I don't think it's unacceptable for people to set boundaries in terms of, of what their working day looks like, what they get paid for, because that is such an important thing now that we have to take work with us because it's on our devices all the time. So I think there's a— there's whoever is frustrated and moaning about this at the top, one, recognize that the world of work has significantly changed since you were in your 20s. So we are going to have to set new norms and new boundaries for this to be sustainable for a generation that is probably going to be working into their late 70s. And the other thing as well, 70% of managers are struggling to handle younger employees. I'm sure that's a complete coincidence that 80% managers aren't trained. Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's like maybe level up your skills to have these conversations about what is and isn't acceptable in your workplace for whatever reason, and actually bring people into that conversation rather than just slagging them off in the Telegraph.
Al ElliottThere's definitely an opportunity, I think, for someone to start a business. There's someone already out there called the Gen Z Whisperer, and we talked about them a few months ago, but there's definitely some opportunity to go in there and do training for older people and say, right, okay, this is how you talk to younger generations. And then you can do the same one and you do the same one for younger generations. I think if someone spoke a different language or you're different culture. Let's say you went to Japan. You've never been to Japan before. You're going to a business meeting. I would want someone to sit down with me and go, right, this is culturally how it works over here. You don't do this. You do do that. If someone says something like this, you do do— do you know what I mean? And I think that we need that sort of thing for the younger generation in work. I agree. I still don't— I'm still not on board with getting— telling them how to answer the phone. I think everyone knows how to answer a phone. Oh, I never understand, right? You know, I'm hung up on this thing, aren't I? And everyone's like, you know, when you watch it, you watch like Seinfeld or Friends or whatever, or you watch New York stuff, or even better, Suits. Do your goddamn job! At the end of the phone call, they just put the phone down.
Leanne ElliottYeah, no one ever says goodbye.
Al ElliottNobody says goodbye. I'd be so annoyed. I'd be ringing them back going, uh, did we just get cut off? They're like, no, I cut you off. Bomb. Anyway, that's why, that's why they didn't invite me back from my Suits audition.
Leanne ElliottJust couldn't get— just the Britishness of saying, thank you so much for calling.
Al ElliottWell, and then the bridge is the going, anyway, well, so what are you up to for the rest of the day?
Leanne ElliottYeah, definitely. I should let you go, really.
Al ElliottI should let you go. That's the one. And it's like, I should let you go, meaning I have grown bored of this conversation many minutes ago. Anyway.
Leanne ElliottSpeaking of growing bored of this conversation many minutes ago, Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottSo there was a great article on, it's on sky.com, news.sky.com. I'm sorry to say.
Leanne ElliottOh, this was a lead. This is a lead that we got from a listener.
Al ElliottYes. So this is from Alec. Hello, Alec. Thank you very, very much for this. So this, this was an article all about 40 jobs that are gonna be lost by AI and 40 jobs that never ever will be. So basically the background is Microsoft has got something called ChatPilot, ChatPilot, Copilot, a bit like ChatGPT. I'm just looking over at Leanne and she's just trying to get over our last little exchange. She's just rubbing her eyes going, oh my God, why? Al, please cut all that out. So this research by Microsoft was, was basically looking through the Copilot which is like the ChatGPT logs, and they looked at 200,000 conversations and they tried to work out of the conversations what percentage could be done by AI. So they found that 90% of the work or the conversations on Copilot around coding, web development, software design, 90% of that could easily be done by AI. So therefore they've gone 90% of AI work for coders can be done by AI. So would you have, would you want to have a guess at some of potentially some of those, those jobs that might have been disappeared by AI?
Leanne ElliottSo other jobs that will disappear because of AI. Similar themes, I'm guessing translators. Have we talked about that?
Al ElliottInterpreters and translators are number one. The over— they're working out that the stat they're using is, or the metric they're using is the overlap, the overlap between an actual person doing the job and the person and someone having a chat with With Copilot. 98% of the conversations, although of the work that interpreters and translators do, Microsoft reckon ChatGPT could do. It's number 1, 98%. If you're an interpreter or a translator, hmm, do you have another guess?
Leanne ElliottI would say something— it's all this service-based stuff, isn't it?
Al ElliottDo you wanna hear a weird one?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat 74% of this job could be done by AI, and that's announcers and radio DJs.
Leanne ElliottOh, I could see that. Yeah.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOh, that's clever. Oh, see, I never thought of that. I will come back onto that in a second. So basically the top ones are web development is fairly obvious. Personal finance advisors, 69%. I've seen a lot more experiments of where people will give LLMs £200 or $200 and say, go and invest this in the stock market. And they go and invest it and generally outperform like the majority of other investors out there. One which I never thought of, 64% of modelling work can be done by AI.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I totally see that. Well, you've had these model influencers go viral, haven't you? And then like the girl at Wimbledon that turned out not to be real.
Al ElliottWhich girl at Wimbledon?
Leanne ElliottThere's this whole thing, like an influencer on Instagram or whatever it was, maybe it was TikTok, basically getting like hundreds and thousands of like, like likes and comments and stuff. And it quickly came out that she wasn't real. She wasn't really at Wimbledon. It was AI-generated content. They figured it out because just one of the pictures looked like she had 3 knees.
Al ElliottAI's still not very good.
Leanne ElliottNo, it's still working on the digits, isn't it?
Al ElliottVery good if you're into niche kind of like fetishes and you do like 3 knees on a woman. But right, I'm going to read you a quote here by an AI expert who would rather stay anonymous due to the relationships they've got with large companies, which either means they're a very important person or Sky News made it up. If you were to look at these jobs in 3 to 5 years, there's a very good chance they've been It's gonna be manual stuff, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottAnything like fixing stuff or—
Al ElliottYep. I've got floor sanders, floor finishers. I've got painters, plasterers. Although I did see a YouTube Short the other day. We call it, we call it TikTube, don't we? Because we don't, we're not cool enough for TikTok. Um, of a, of a robot that was painting a wall and basically had a little jet and it was spraying the paint on the wall and it obviously knew exactly how high to go up and so it was cutting in perfectly. So, Cleaners. Cleaners are up there. They're number 3. Nurses.
Leanne ElliottOf course. Healthcare.
Al ElliottYep. Yep. Massagers. Opticians. Now, I don't know about that because you would've thought that's something which would be—
Leanne ElliottYou would.
Al ElliottBut unless people are just a bit squeamish about having robots anywhere near their eyes in case they just go in there and grab an eye and just pull it out. Also, good news if you went to university and studied motorboat operation. Because motorboat operators were number 2 on there. And then also phlebotomists.
Leanne ElliottWhat's a phlebotomist?
Al ElliottI didn't know. I was gonna pretend I knew what it was, but I had to Google it. Listeners, I bet you know what it is. Go and jump on LinkedIn and tell us if you know what a phlebotomist is. It's someone who draws blood. I've got dentists.
Leanne ElliottI see. Why wouldn't a robot be able to do that?
Al ElliottI don't know.
Leanne ElliottLike a little hand come out and go, mm.
Al ElliottAgain, maybe it's, maybe it's just squeamishness of put it, put your hand down there and then a robot comes out and basically just again, Grabs your wrist and rips it off or something. I don't know. There is an upside to this though, Lee, and this is I'm going to read this from a quote from the person I haven't written down. He says, "I don't see an AI right now coming up with wonderful ideas for creative writing authors, but what it is good at doing is taking authors' idea and making a first draft extremely quickly." So they said, "Does that mean we have fewer authors, or does that mean we have more?" And they're and they're trying to say yes, you're going to have more because if you come up with a great idea, ChatGPT. He can pull it out of you just like they'd pull the eye out of you, pull it out of you and, and turn it into a book. So we will have potentially more authors and also like a landscaping firm, they use ChatGPT and they, they said basically generate me personalized services to upsell to existing customers. And he, ChatGPT did and they went off and sold more and therefore obviously more work for the workers. So it's not all poo. It's sometimes, it's, it's sometimes good. Like they always say that you feed, feed poo to roses and they grow better. No, I never said that. Lee, what else have you seen, my love? It's going really well so far.
Leanne ElliottWell, I'm not sure I'm gonna lighten the mood with this one, but Amazon is preparing another round of job cuts. Um, only this time it's HR that's gonna get the chop. So this is according to Fortune, uh, which reports the company is planning to cut 15% of its human resources division, known internally as PXT, or People Experience and Technology.
Al ElliottOh, that's made me sick in my mouth.
Leanne ElliottUh, sources say other areas of Amazon's consumer business could also be affected, although it's not yet clear how many roles in total are gonna go. So a bit more information if you're interested: the division reports to Senior Vice President Beth Galetti and has more than 10,000 staff worldwide, including people in recruitment, HR tech, and traditional people roles. An Amazon spokesperson declined to comment, but the article says the latest reductions to come as the company looks to cut costs while pouring money into artificial intelligence. Amazon has said it plans to spend around $100 billion this year building cloud and AI data centers, both for its own use and for enterprise clients. It's, it's a lot of people. And of course, this isn't the first time Amazon has made massive layoffs. I think 27,000 corporate jobs were laid off between '22 and '23. And more recently, I was really sad to hear about is how they've decided to close their Wondery podcast division.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottI know. Some of my favourite podcasts from Wondery, but equally maybe because sometimes Business Wars always knocks us off when they come out with a new series there. Wondery, yeah.
Al ElliottNo, please. Yeah, well done, Jassy. Yeah, good, good, good, good decision. Now if you could only— if someone could shut down Diary of a CEO, then we'll be number one again.
Leanne ElliottYes, that would be marvellous. I can't see it happening anytime soon. I mean, there's loads more in the article about Andy Jassy being pretty clear, wanting to embrace AI. It's not that Amazon has always been particularly known for creating a wonderful human experience. So, you know, it is what it is for Amazon, I think. It's a hard one talking about this, and I wanted to include it just because I think we hear so much about it, we forget about the actual people. Have we talked about this before? The deadly arithmetic of compassion?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo we're not very good at empathising with people at scale, but, you know, one-on-one we are.
Al ElliottJust in case the listener's not heard of that, am I right in thinking that you say 220,000 people are losing their job or 20,000 people are losing their job, and then Bob next door lost his job at Amazon, and you can't compute the 220,000, but you can think, oh, poor Bob. Is that right?
Leanne ElliottExactly.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottOur nervous system can't count. So we're very good at empathising on a one-to-one level, which is why charities, when they're after money, will always show one story of one person who is in need. But my point, I really wanted to include it, is, is for anyone who has maybe been disconnected from these layoffs, dealing with the deadly arithmetic of compassion, try and think about those, those people that in your network that might have been laid off that might need your help. And you never know what can help in terms of just reaching out, seeing if they're okay, having a chat, putting them in touch with people. Keeping your ear to the ground if there's jobs going around in your organisation. And get in touch with us as well. We offer one free coaching session every, every quarter to somebody who is dealing with a layoff and looking at a career transition. So get in touch. So yeah, not, not a happy, happy article, but important to remember that there are people out there that are really struggling right now. And don't forget that Andy Jassy is an absolute poodle for getting rid of Wondery podcast division. You fool.
Al ElliottAnyway, onto perhaps slightly more upbeat— sorry, bringing you all down— slightly more upbeat news. We have the, after the break, the Truth or Lies segment. This is our myth-busting where we talk about all kinds of things that everyone goes, yeah, yeah, that's true. And then we ask our psychologist, which is my wife and co-host sitting opposite me now. Say hello.
Leanne ElliottHello.
Al ElliottAnd she will tell us whether it's true or not. So we will see you after this very, very quick break.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number 1 Marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottKeep that in. Welcome back. It is time for Truth or Lie. This is our weekly myth-busting segment. We're gonna take those psychological claims you've seen everyone ask, does the evidence actually back this up? So, so far we've, in this segment, we've talked about left-brain creativity about 3 weeks ago, about 2 weeks ago, whether tall people are more successful. And then a week ago we talked about Maslow's famous pyramid, the hierarchy of, of bees, no, needs. And we just basically dispelled that. So this week's claim comes from an event we mentioned at the beginning in Sarajevo with the awesome, awesome Yasmin Alic. During the session, he said something that clearly resonated with the room. He said, your vibe attracts your tribe. And we were obviously sitting there with about 70 other people, similar interests, similar energy. Certainly felt like there was something, you know, something about that. And also people seem to agree with it. And to be fair, Yasmin has brought together a really great group of people. So here is today's question, Leanne. Is it a truth or a lie? Does your vibe really attract your tribe?
Leanne ElliottIt's a catchy little phrase, isn't it?
Al ElliottI like it.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Um, so I mean, the idea is pretty simple. If this is the first time you've heard of this, your vibe attracts your tribe, it's the idea that if you, if you're being yourself, you put out your authentic energy into the world, and the right people will naturally gravitate towards you. Like attracts like. Birds of a feather, all that kind of stuff.
Al ElliottMoth to a flame.
Leanne ElliottMoth to a flame. Slightly darker ending on that one though. Um, so yeah, it's, it's nice. Does the evidence back it up? Well, we do have a bit of evidence that backs it up actually, Al. So there's a well-documented phenomenon called the similar-to-me effect. Do you know what I enjoy?
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottIs when psychologists name the phenomenon something that just makes sense.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSimilar-to-me effect. You can have a decent idea of what that is.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Rather than going, oh, it's the such and such and such and such, you know? Yeah.
Al Elliott100%. Rather than the unorthodox reverse thrusting. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSelf-efficacy-ness.
Al ElliottYes. I couldn't say that word. Sorry. So similar to us, is that what it's called?
Leanne ElliottSimilar to me effect. So basically research shows consistently that people do become friends, they collaborate, and they fall in love with others who mirror them in important ways. So one study found that Romantic partners share almost 90% of traits. So big things like religion, political ideology, and also smaller lifestyle factors like diet, whether they drink or smoke, how much water they drink daily, and even how much time they spend on the computer.
Al ElliottIf that is true, then it does— then my parents are the exception that proves the rule. Could not be more different people.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, well, we'll get on to the exception that proves the rule slightly. Um, yes, on average, couples are typically similar in age, ethnicity, education, and most importantly, they share similar core beliefs and values. And that isn't just about initial attraction. Um, similarity also predicts long-term relationship success. So people who are similar tend to agree on more things— politics, religion, how to raise children— and the more similar you are, the smoother relationship tends to be. And there's also evidence that opposites don't just fail to attract, they actively repel. So the opposite of your vibe attracts your—
Al Elliottyeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottThere's a second part to what Yasmin said, wasn't there?
Al ElliottSomething like your cliques attract pricks or something like that. No, well, it was something like that. Your vibe attracts your tribe.
Leanne ElliottI mean, yeah, basically saying that you'll also repel, which is what the evidence also says. So particularly when it comes to views, values, temperaments, studies have shown that introverts and extroverts are less likely to pair up, which does kind of bust the myth that opposites attract. I'm not sure how to position that in a positive way for your mum and dad, and then they are the exception that proves the rule.
Al ElliottYeah, I'm not sure they're listening.
Leanne ElliottNo, no, they're definitely not. So this similarity principle that we're talking about does extend beyond romantic relationships, and it's called homophily. So walk into a secondary school and you'll instantly see all the cliques, right? Groups sitting together. They tend to be remarkably similar, whether it be clothing or extracurricular activities, perceived popularity perhaps.
Al ElliottWhy'd you look at me when you said that? Yeah, I was with the chess club guys and all the IT guys. Yeah, that was me.
Leanne ElliottYeah, research has documented this across academic performance, exercise habits, even problematic behaviors like boys, boys, boys. And people do, do come together with people that, that they see as similar to them. So the evidence of similarity attraction is very, very strong. But of course, this is psychology. It's not always that simple. There are some things that—
Al ElliottIt depends.
Leanne ElliottIt depends. So let's take a look at what, what complicates this a little bit. This is such, this is such a psychologist thing, and this is why I freaking love psychology, but also why people get really frustrated with us. So there's a critical question here, Al. Do we attract similar people or do we become similar to the people we're around?
Al ElliottSo he's saying that people who are similar in that thing will, it will get together and that they'll join, or someone will change slightly so that they are similar to that person and they'll join.
Leanne ElliottThat is the question.
Al ElliottIs it?
Leanne ElliottThat is the question. Exactly. Do we attract similar people to us or do we become similar to the people that we're around?
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo psychologists distinguish between selection effects and socialization effects. So selection effects is when we actively seek out people we perceive as similar.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSocialization effect is when we become more similar to our peers through association. So if you're hanging out with runners, then 6 months later, you've probably signed up for a 10K.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottYou didn't seek out runners because you're a runner. You became a runner because you were around runners.
Al ElliottThat makes sense.
Leanne ElliottDoes that make sense?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottUm, so both processes could happen simultaneously, and research actually hasn't determined which is more powerful, socialization effects or selection effects. So we're still not sure about that. Then there's the chameleon effect. Have you heard about this?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottSo this was a big, a big famous study that came out in the, in the late '90s. Um, so basically psychologists discovered that we unconsciously mimic other people's body language, speech patterns, facial expressions, and gestures. And crucially, mimicking this makes people like us more.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottBut it's been picked up in a commercial sense to improve your influence as a salesperson perhaps, or as your influence as a leader. But the chameleon effect, was it in terms of how it's been discovered, does happen entirely outside of that conscious awareness. So, your brain will just automatically copy someone's posture when you're trying to connect. And people who are mimicked report feeling more positively towards The people doing the mimicking. The interesting thing about the chameleon effect as well is it suggests that we don't just attract similar people, we actively make ourselves similar to people we want to like us. So I'm sure you've seen this in groups perhaps where there's a, yeah, a very dominant person and that will, that will kind of breed more of this kind of dominant behaviour because people are trying to, trying to mimic it. Highly empathetic people are actually very prone to this. So, they're much more likely to engage in the chameleon effect. And then there's also a slightly more complex side to similarity attraction, which we talked about very first. And the chameleon effect can sometimes backfire into unintentional mockery, especially with accents. So, you've heard people who will just pick up accents. I also believe that that has— that's linked to people who are very musical, have strong musicality. They'll pick up accents of other people's, which can either be A bit, yeah, it feels like you're taking the mick out of them, or it can feel a bit overforced or a bit fake and unauthentic. And then that lack of authenticity will then negate the similar-to-me effect. So it's kind of a double-edged sword really, if it is taken too far. And there is a bit of a dark side to it as well in terms of imitating others. It can then start to override your own personal values. So you could unconsciously pick up unhealthy behaviors, um, or in terms of certain biases or discrimination. So there's a big news thing this week, wasn't there, about a group of young Republicans? Their WhatsApp chat was released. Did you see this?
Al ElliottNo, no.
Leanne ElliottLots of hate speech. So in terms of this mimicking, because we want to be included, oh, I see. can start to possibly shift us into ideologies that we wouldn't necessarily have held previous to that because of the impact of in-group bias. I guess similarity does drive attraction. People form relationships with those who share their values, beliefs, and lifestyle. But it's not passive. You have to actively select similar people and unconsciously adapt by mimicking these behaviors. And similarity isn't just about energy or vibe necessarily, it's about very concrete things like political beliefs, values, and lifestyle choices. So in terms of is it a truth or is it a lie, I'm confident to say it's true. It's true, so long as we don't oversimplify it, as long as we appreciate the nuance. And I have no doubt that Yasmeen, who hosted this event and brought up this phrase, absolutely does. Um, so yeah, that is— is that our first true?
Al ElliottI think it might be our first almost 100% true, as long as you don't overdo it. It's good for a psychologist to come down one way or another. So just remind us, what was it called? What was the effect called?
Leanne ElliottWe've got the similarity effect, which then leads into the chameleon effect, uh, which basically means that We attract people who are similar to us, and when we're around people, we become more similar to them in terms of kind of this group-forming community base, which goes back all the way to evolution and staying alive, didn't it? So, yeah.
Al ElliottOkay, Leanne, I think it's time for our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put readers' questions, not readers, listeners' questions to— who reads a podcast?
Leanne ElliottI know someone who does read a podcast.
Al ElliottWho?
Leanne ElliottI know somebody who will probably be listening now who uses like the podcasting summary app thing that'll actually read, read it.
Al ElliottPodcast.
Leanne Elliott'Cause not, not as much time to sit and listen to it. I forget the name of the app.
Al ElliottWell, don't use it. Listen to us because if you, if you read the summary and we got, don't get a download and we don't get that tiny little dopamine spike. So these apps are very, very bad. Anyway, onto the world famous workplace surgery. Oh my God. This week we're recording this on a Well, I can't tell you, we're recording it early, can we? This is, this is live on Tuesday when you listen to it. Anyway, what was I saying? We— world famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist. She knows an awful lot about work and she's gonna— she knows also an awful lot about things we're gonna be talking about today. Leanne, are you ready for question number 1?
Leanne ElliottI'm ready.
Al ElliottSo question number 1, I think one of my remote employees is working 2 full-time jobs. What should I do? We're a remote team and one of my employees is performing very well overall. Their work gets done, they show up, In meetings, there haven't been any major issues, but I've had my suspicions for a while they might be working a second full-time role at the same time. The reason I'm asking now is because I recently noticed messages from another company popping up on their screen during a call. Names and topics I didn't recognize, definitely not from our business. Their calendar is also blocked out far more than it should be, and I know it's not all internal meetings. However, the output's really good, so should I just ignore it, or should I formally raise A problem and set clearer expectations about focus and availability. What's the right approach here? Lee, we have talked about this before, haven't we? We had a news story about a guy who had about 8 jobs pulling in about £1 million a year, and then it all came crashing down. But this sounds, just from the point of view of the person who maybe does have a second job, this does sound a little bit naive. It's their first rodeo because you don't, you don't want to be— you want to just at least mute your calendar and not make it fully shared. Anyway, that's— that's— Lee.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWhat's the official thoughts?
Leanne ElliottUm, uh, do you know? The output is good. The output is good. Is it as good as it should be? Is it as good as you want it to be? Is it getting, getting stuff done? Do you have a policy that somebody isn't allowed to have more than one job?
Al ElliottOh, great question.
Leanne ElliottHow is that worded in the contract? Is it actual hours? Is it around more outputs or projects? There are some nuances here that you need to understand really to, to really figure out if this person is being a bit naughty or whether they're just taking you know, making the most of an opportunity that they've got. My thought would be, your question is, do I ignore it or do I formally raise it? I'd say something in the middle.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottEspecially as this first conversation, in terms of just sitting down and having a conversation with them. How are you finding work? Have you got enough to do? How's the workload going? Would you like anything more challenging? And then as the conversation starts to happen, there might be some cues that you can pull up on, or indeed if it's very short answers with no real details given away, then you can say, okay, I'm just wondering if perhaps you're taking on an extra side hustle or something, or maybe you start a side hustle. I've noticed some things here and there and just curious to see how you're managing with your workload at the minute and see what details they, they come up with. And within the context of whether actually this isn't allowed within the company and it isn't in the contract, because if they've got nothing in that in terms of their, their contract, you're on You're on pretty shaky ground really in terms of even if they do have a second full-time job, as long as they're delivering the outputs that, that they, they agreed to. So I think I'd just have it as a conversation, maybe mention that you've, you've noticed these things, that they're blocked out a bit more than you'd expect. Why is that? Is there something I could be helping you with? Just have a very curious, curiosity-driven conversation with your member of staff to try and find out a little bit more. information. But I think ultimately it comes down to your company's policy, um, what happens after you've had that conversation and, and understood exactly what is happening with this person if they do have a second full-time job. If you do have a policy, then it does come into a conversation of, well, you know, I'm— I need to bring up the fact that in your contract it does state this and that. Your outputs have been really brilliant, so You know, I can't complain there, but we would expect you to prioritise this position and let that other position go. Or indeed, there could be a world where this could be a part-time position and you just halved your salary and still getting the output. Of course, that might not work for the individual. There's lots of options in terms of how to handle it once you know exactly what's going on and the context in which it's happening. But I'm always a fan of Managed by outputs. If somebody's delivering the work you need them to do and doing it to a quality level that you require, my thought is always going to be, uh, preserving this employee within your business because clearly it's working.
Al ElliottI'm thinking if that was me, I'd be like, ooh, if I let this slide, is everyone then gonna go and get a second job? And if this person is particularly good at it and they, they produce the great outputs, they're probably in the minority.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottSo I would be a little bit concerned. So at that point, I'd take your first point, piece of advice and go, I'm going to implement a, you can only work here unless it's got written permission. You can only work for one job.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottIf I was to implement that policy and send it out to people, would it retrospectively apply to this person?
Leanne ElliottTechnically speaking, I believe you'd be issuing a new contract of employment. So that person would then have to exactly choose to agree or not. So you could have some, yeah, voluntary attrition that'll happen in, in releasing that new policy. You can't just go, you're not allowed to do that anymore. You have, you'd have to make a formal change to the employment contract. Interesting. Yes. Which could be risky.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. If you're listening to this and you are wondering about the HR angle on it, we have our friends over at the Curve Group. They are, they usually answer our HR technical questions. So it's worth going and asking them or looking at the website. I'm sure they've got something about this. Just don't do anything silly. Don't go, oh, we'll be fine, or ChatGPT it, because this is serious stuff. This is contracts and people. So be careful with that. Okay. Question number 2, how do you actually motivate your team to upskill? So this person runs a service-based business. They, they write, I'm realizing how crucial it is to keep our team's skills sharp. The challenge is, while my team understands the value of learning and development, they rarely take the initiative themselves. I've had plenty of conversations about why upskilling matters, both for the careers and for the business, but it feels like I'm dragging people to the water and they're not drinking. What works in practice to create a culture where people genuinely want to develop their skills?
Leanne ElliottI think my first question is, why, why do you want your team to upskill? And what value is that gonna add to their role within the organisation? Because, I mean, I absolutely applaud your, your efforts here, and you're right, learning and development is a really important part of employee engagement, a really important part of professional development. And actually increasingly a really important part of recognition within our organisations and recognising what people want to do and helping them with that. So, I applaud your intention. This is wonderful. But yeah, my question is why? If they understand the value of it, that's good, but they're clearly not connecting with what that means in terms of their outcomes. So, if you have a really clear development path and you say, right, Amanda, you are on track. Um, to be, or, um, go into a management position in the next 2 years, but during that time I'd expect to see some learning and development around self-awareness, emotional intelligence, having difficult conversations, that type of thing, then I'm going to be engaged in that learning, assuming I want to be a manager, because that's what I need to do to get to the next step of my career. It could be that AI is something that the organisation is implementing. So, you go, guys, in terms of making sure that that we're the best that we can be, performance keeps growing, that we all have our, have our jobs safe and secure, really important that we, um, upskill in AI. And that actually might be where it becomes more mandated learning, perhaps, if it is really integral to the operations and, and strategy of the organization. And I've seen this before with clients I've worked with who've got the best intention. They're typically very creative, curious founders who love to learn and are always picking up a book. And they'll have things like, oh, we've got an X thousand pounds a year budget for people in training and development, but nobody uses it. I'm like, well, that's cool, but what, what prompts have you given them to use it? Have you brought in some training suppliers to talk about the type of training courses that they offer and what it could mean for their career? Are you having one-to-ones with people and learning about what direction they want to go in the future? If they do want to go into management, if they do want to go into a a slightly different industry or whatever it is. It's understanding your person and going, right, okay, well, if that is your ultimate career goal, these are the steps to get you here. This is a learning development that's going to work, and this is the budget we have available to us. Should we get you booked on some stuff? Particularly if you're dealing with younger employees who haven't quite figured out what they want to do yet. So, I think it just needs to be a lot more interactive, a lot more of a kind of a two-way conversation as a manager, and probably a lot more individualised in terms of you taking the time to understand what people want to do. This is also going to have to take a massive amount of psychological safety and trust and security that somebody has in you as a manager, because you could well have people in your organization who are really interested in learning and development, but they're interested in, in learning and development that is going to take them away from the job they're currently in and potentially the organization they're currently in. Is that something you'd invest in terms of learning and development or not? If you found out that somebody wants to essentially go through a different path and leave your organisation in 2 to 3 years, are you still going to support them during that period of time? Because if they haven't got that psychological safety, they're not going to be honest about what their learning and development needs are or wants are. So, there's a lot of complicated relationship-based psychology to this type of organisational intervention or perk, whatever you want to call it, which really requires much more input from you at an individual level to figure out What people want to do, or at an organisational level, what learning and development is going to be useful for people to have in terms of their development with the company over a period of time, whether that be in terms of how the company is changing or in terms of moving up the ranks.
Al ElliottThat's why she's a psychologist. Okay, so question number 3 and the final one. I've just started a new job and it's full of red flags. Should I get out now? I accepted a lower-level role out of necessity after 6 months of unemployment. I knew it wasn't ideal, but I wasn't prepared for just how bad it would be. Within my first week, My manager, who's already on their way out, was openly trashing the company from awful health insurance to the complete lack of systems or tools. Turns out they're not replacing my manager either, just spreading their work across an already stretched team. There's cost cutting everywhere. People are clearly demotivated, and I've seen multiple decisions that make no sense if this company wants to survive long term. I'm still job hunting, but now I'm wondering, do I try and stick this one out or do I cut my losses early? How do you know when it's worth riding out the storm and when to run before the ship sinks?
Leanne ElliottI'm gonna keep this really simple and say at this point, I think you need to stick it out.
Al ElliottOh, that's not what I expected.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottThere's a couple of reasons. One, you said you've taken a role slightly under your usual level after 6 months of unemployment.
Al ElliottYes, 6 months.
Leanne ElliottIf you leave this job now, it ain't gonna look good on your resume, your CV. It's just really not gonna look good in terms of taking a job that clearly wasn't right or was mismatched in terms of your flow of of work experience and then to only last a couple months before dropping out shows that it's going to put doubt in the mind of any recruitment officer or hiring manager if you do want to apply for a role that is slightly outside of what you've done previously, because they're going to question, well, have you got the right judgment to make that because it didn't work out previously? Um, so I think, I think that's reason one. 2, it's already— it's always easy to get a job when you've already got a job.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat's just The truth of the matter.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottPeople are always gonna, gonna be unfairly discriminatory about people who are unemployed. It's not cool. It's not fair. It's not correct, but that is the way it is. So, I think for those 2 reasons, it's important. The 3rd reason, which really depends on, on the type of organisation, your role, your level of influence, and who you can chat to. If your manager is awful and they're already on their way out, good. Thank goodness. That is a wonderful thing. You've said they're not managed, they're not planning on replacing the manager, spreading the work across a stretched team. Not ideal. But then you say some things that get my little, my little senses going as a, as a, if I was a senior leader to think I need to hear more about this. You said they're cost cutting everywhere, people are clearly demotivated, and I've seen multiple decisions that make no sense if this company wants to survive long term. That to me sounds like you've got a lot of potential to bring.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottto a high-level role within the organization, it's gonna have a massive amount of impact. I would spend the next 2, 3 weeks, however long it is, particularly once your manager has gone and there'll be a bit more understanding of what is, what is happening, is just make— keep notes, keep, um, little entries and whatever it is, whether you type, whether you journal it, in terms of what's happening, what you've seen, why you think a decision wasn't right, the negative impact that's had, why you would have done it differently, what impact that could have had. People are clearly demotivated. It sounds like you're a manager. Find ways to, to bring up morale and motivation. Start building those relationships. You talked about systems and tools. Start looking at tasks that maybe you can help flow a bit better. That's what we call task cohesion, as we talked about last week. I think that task cohesion can then breed team cohesion, which then helps motivation and morale. It sounds like there's an opportunity here for you to be part of this organisation's transformation and turnaround. Should you want to, should they last long enough, um, and should you have the senior leaders in the organization that are open to having this conversation with you. So I would say collect your data, collect your ideas, start to make little moments of influence where, where you can, and just see how it pans out. Continue with your job hunting, continue with your searching, but I think there's an opportunity here potentially depending on what you want and what the organization Um, can do what its appetite for change is, um, as a positive side of the coin. And the more negative side of the coin is it's gonna look really bad on your CV if you leave this job too early. It's always easier to get a job when you have one. So, I would say stick with it for now. Particularly if you're already, you know, saying that you, you, you could cut your losses early, um, then I'd, I'd say, yeah, go in, identify the problems, and go with some, go with some solutions, particularly if you can talk to your team about some of those solutions. So, you've got the consensus of the group. Then go to whoever would be the next person up and go, look, we've noticed that this is really clunky and the process is slowing us down. I had a chat with everybody and we all agree this could be a really great way forward. Do I have your permission to change this process over the next week and just see, see how it goes? Or, there's something I've not thought about in terms of how this process currently works I need to be aware of. And have that conversation. You might be surprised that there'll be a senior leader up there going, thank goodness, finally I've got a manager that is willing to to kind of take on some of this continuous improvement work. If your manager's on the way out, there's a story there, isn't there? I would hold on just for the gossip and just see how this turns out.
Al ElliottIsn't that like a RuPaul thing?
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. I can't wait to see how this turns out.
Al ElliottOkay, so if you have a question— thank you, by the way, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYou're very welcome.
Al ElliottIf you have— you're contractually obliged to answer these questions, so, but still, I'll be polite and say thank you very much. If you have a question of your own, then check out the show notes. You can send us an email. Most of these are anonymous, but if you want to be, if you want me to shout your name out, then I'm very happy to do that. Uh, we have got on Thursday—
Leanne ElliottWe've got a really great interview. We've got Danny Wareham coming on the show. He is a psychologist, an author, a coach, and his new book Constellation is just out. I think it was released this week, last Monday. Um, and it's really cool. It is raising a question: can we have leaderless organisations? Do we need leaders at all? And the research, I think, is quite surprising, Al. It's quite surprising. I had a good old conversation with Danny and I wasn't convinced, but I think I might be by the end of it.
Al ElliottYeah, I'm editing the, uh, the episode at the moment, his interview, and, uh, it's really interesting. Really, really cool guy. Another fellow Brit as well, from Stoke-on-Trent, I believe. Yeah, yeah. So almost like, almost northern. Sorry, Danny, you're not full northern.
Leanne ElliottI want to say a fellow northerner, but we're Stoke Stoke would call themselves northerners, wouldn't they?
Al ElliottI think Danny would. Yeah, Danny's more northern than southern. Yeah, 100%.
Leanne ElliottOr is it Midlands Stoke? I don't know.
Al ElliottMoving on, we will see you on Thursday for a bit of Danny, and we'll see you on Tuesday for a bit more of Al and Leanne and a bit more of this ridiculousness with the occasional gem thrown in. If you haven't subscribed, then click subscribe. If you haven't been on LinkedIn and followed Leanne, go do that right now. I'll wait. No, sorry, get your phone out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. LinkedIn app, search for Leanne Elliott. Yeah, she's, she's the good-looking one with the lovely background. And go and click follow because she's definitely worth a follow. Some of her stuff is brilliant, some of it's not very good. No, that's not true.
Leanne ElliottHow rude.
Al ElliottAnything to add before we let these lovely people go?
Leanne ElliottUm, no, click subscribe, like, review, get in touch, all that stuff. Um, don't sleep on the show notes. We actually have links in there to email us, uh, to connect with us on LinkedIn. And actually to book in a conversation with us. And what always surprises me is we get so many pitches, guest pitches for this show. Surprises me that we don't get somebody just booking themselves in for half an hour and pitching there and then. But no, why? How good would that be?
Al ElliottOh man.
Leanne ElliottCut that out if you don't want that to happen.
Al ElliottBecause you know, you know, you know, I'm gonna go, who the bloody hell's this? And then they go, hi, yeah, I wanna be a guest. Anyway, I'm gonna go.
Leanne ElliottBye. Bye!