Episode 244 · 28 October 2025 · 50:50
Waitrose axes autistic volunteer, A.I. clones and managing hiring chaos. PLUS! Are first born children natural leaders?
Waitrose axes autistic volunteer, A.I. clones and managing hiring chaos. PLUS! Are first born children natural leaders?
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Waitrose axes autistic volunteer after pay request
news roundup#autism#volunteer#pay#discrimination
AI clones are coming for your coworkers
news roundup#ai#coworkers#technology#future-of-work
The three-month notice period problem
news roundup#notice-period#contracts#employment#resignation
Truth or Lie: Are firstborn children natural leaders?
truth or lie#leadership#birth-order#psychology#firstborn
Workplace Surgery: Managing hiring chaos without spending a fortune
workplace surgery#hiring#recruitment#budget#small-business
Workplace Surgery: Can I say no to my manager's lunch invite?
workplace surgery#manager#lunch#boundaries#workplace-culture
Workplace Surgery: Opting out of birthday collections
workplace surgery#birthday#collections#office-culture#peer-pressure
Show notes
Waitrose Axes Autistic Volunteer, AI Clones & Managing Hiring Chaos — PLUS! Are Firstborn Children Natural Leaders?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down Waitrose's controversial decision to suspend an autistic volunteer after his family asked if he could be paid, the $35M AI startup that wants to clone your coworkers, and why three-month notice periods are quietly taking over the job market. Plus, in Truth or Lie: are firstborn children actually natural leaders?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Waitrose under fire for axing autistic volunteer A 27-year-old man with severe autism was reportedly "sacked" after his family asked if he could be paid for some of his work. After volunteering at Waitrose for four years and clocking up more than 600 hours unpaid, his placement was suddenly suspended. Al and Leanne explore the line between inclusion and exploitation — and what true inclusive employment should actually look like. Source →
2. AI clones are coming for your coworkers Two co-founders from the $2.1B AI recruiting startup Eightfold just raised $35M for a new company, Viven — an AI "digital twin" of every employee that lets coworkers message your clone when you're offline. We unpack the privacy risks, ethical dilemmas, and whether this is innovation or invasion. Source →
3. The three-month notice period problem Three-month notice periods used to be for senior executives. Now they're everywhere — from middle management to entry-level jobs. We ask whether forcing people to stay longer is about succession planning or control — and what it's doing to motivation and trust. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: Are Firstborn Children Natural Leaders?
Firstborns dominate CEO lists and political leadership — but is it nature or nurture? Leanne walks Al (a proud firstborn) through decades of research showing that while firstborns do have a statistical advantage, it's more about parental attention and early responsibility than genetic destiny. When you control for family dynamics, the effect is half as strong as it first appears.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Hiring chaos: "How do I manage chaos when hiring without spending a fortune?"
- Lunch invites: "My manager invited me to lunch — do I have to go?"
- Birthday collections: "Can I opt out of birthday collections at work without looking antisocial?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottWaitrose came under fire this week for axing an autistic volunteer after his family asked if he could be paid for some of his work. He'd stacked shelves for 4 years, over 600 hours unpaid. So what's actually going on here, and where is the line between inclusion and exploitation?
Al ElliottAlso this week, 2 billion-backed founders just raised $35 million To clone your coworkers. Yes, they call your clone Vivens. Vivens? I've never seen it written down. And it's an AI twin of every employee in your organisation, so you can ask questions when they're on holiday or in a different time zone. Is this a great way to share information quickly and easily, or is it just a step too far towards AI taking over the world?
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, are firstborn children natural leaders? They're overrepresented in C-suite and among world leaders. But is that really about birth order, or is something else creating that advantage?
Al ElliottPlus, of course, the world-famous weekly workplace surgery. We're talking to a startup founder who's drowning in hundreds of job applications and desperately needs a better system without spending a fortune. We're going to be consulting with our HR partners at The Curve Group, of course, who specialise in high-volume recruitment. We're going to get their thoughts.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name's Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottLet's get into it right after a quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets. Which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back, welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it is. Cue that jingle, Al.
Al ElliottPressing the button right now. Okay, Lee, what have you seen?
Leanne ElliottAutistic volunteer is sacked from Waitrose after his family asked if he could start being paid after years of stocking shelves for free.
Al ElliottOoh.
Leanne ElliottI know, this was— it's been picked up by every news outlet, I think, now, but I actually saw this shared on LinkedIn. It was a Daily Mail article, and it was actually shared by Christian Lang off of Standout Socks.
Al ElliottStandout Socks? What's Standout Socks?
Leanne ElliottStandout Socks is an awesome organisation that basically makes very bright coloured socks. They were on Dragon's Den, but they're a very purpose-driven organisation, so they support people with disabilities, Down syndrome, raise awareness, employ people with these conditions as well. So a really, really cool guy, really cool organisation. And I'm trying to get him on the podcast. Christian, if you're listening, come on.
Al ElliottYeah, come on, Christian. Answer your emails. Check your emails, mate. Anyway, we're going back to— so it's Waitrose, which is a supermarket in the UK, kind of upmarket supermarket, kind of fancy.
Leanne ElliottYeah, kind of fancy. So as I said, this is the Daily Mail report, but it's been picked up by pretty much every major national and regional media outlet in the UK. So the Daily Mail reported on Tom Boyd, a 27-year-old man from Cheadle Hulme in Greater Manchester who has severe autism. Tom started volunteering at his local Waitrose back in 2021, helping to stock cages and stack shelves 2 days a week, 9:30 AM to 2 PM, always supported by a carer. Over 4 years, he clocked up more than 600 hours of unpaid work, Staff reportedly loved him. One colleague even joked he worked harder than some people who were paid to be there.
Al ElliottGo on, go on.
Leanne ElliottI can believe that. Uh, but things changed when Tom's mum Frances reached out to ask if he could be given a few paid hours. Not a full role, just 2 or 3 shifts a week as recognition, uh, for his time and effort. According to the Mail, the request was escalated to Waitrose head office, who were said to be alarmed at the amount of unpaid work he'd done. They then suspended his volunteering while they looked into it. That was 2 months ago.
Al ElliottThat's a bit unfair.
Leanne ElliottYeah, Tom hasn't been back since. His mum says she's had to tell him the shop is being cleaned so he wouldn't be upset. Uh, Frances went on to tell the newspaper that we weren't after 40 or even 20 hours. We said we'd accept 3 or 4, but claims the company said Tom couldn't be made a paid employee because he couldn't do the full role. She pointed out that there are people on the same shop floor being paid who also don't do every task. She did describe the staff in store as amazing, but said things changed when head office got involved, calling it cold, corporate, and completely lacking humanity. Waitrose have said in a statement they work hard to be an inclusive employer and partner with charities to provide work experience. They added that they're investigating as a priority but can't comment on individual cases. So Frances and Tom's support workers are now trying to find him another role, maybe in another supermarket or even doing cleaning work, which apparently he really enjoys. So yeah, it's a frustrating story, Al, and especially when you think about Waitrose's tagline, the quality you'd expect at prices you wouldn't, puts it into perspective.
Al ElliottOh, so that works double-edged sword, 'cause Waitrose is known as being quite expensive. So perhaps it's like, oh, it's not very good quality at prices I would've expected to be a lot lower than this, but. Uh, it is a real shame. And I think that, Tom, come, come over to, come over to Mostar. You can come and clean our house. We'd love to have you. We'll definitely pay you. It's just a real shame, isn't it? Because it sounds like something lovely happened. And then potentially, I'm sorry, but potentially head office or maybe HR or someone with a checkbox got involved and went, well, this is— This is not, this is not the way we do things. We're going to cancel it. And it's just like, oh, come on now. It sounded like it wasn't hurting anyone. Um, to be honest, if I was a store manager, if I was getting paid well enough, I might just take dig into my pocket, or maybe even speak to the staff and go, look, we can't officially pay him, but would anyone— would people be willing to throw a, you know, a pound in a bucket? Yeah, because it sounds like it's more like just the principle of the thing rather than actually wanting the money. It's just, wouldn't it be nice if Tom could walk home with a little pay packet like everyone else does? But yeah, anyway, what are your thoughts, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottDo you know, I've heard of this before. People, um, parents who have, um, children with either severe autism or other learning disabilities being put in these positions with these organizations who shout from the rooftops about how inclusive they are, and when it comes down to it, will set a boundary that really shows they're not inclusive at all. And I think this is one, right? I can see, again, I can see the person in corporate going, oh well, this is a problem because that could be classed as exploitation if this person has worked 600 hours without being paid. Mum, Frances, wasn't Pointing that out as a problem. She was just saying, actually, at this point, he's part of the fabric of the company, part of the team in the store. Can we just, for his own sense of value in what he's doing, get a bit of pocket money? Come on now, 3 hours a week paid, it's probably going to be about £25.
Al ElliottThat's about the price of 6 eggs in Waitrose.
Leanne ElliottExactly. But it's just all— I can see the whole, oh, well, we'll need to do a proper proper risk assessment. We'll need to make reasonable adjustments. Maybe we'd need to actually advertise the role out. And it's all this corporate nonsense that actually then completely undermines what genuine inclusive employment looks like. When you match the roles, you adapt the roles to match the ability. And what clearly Tom can do here is a role that adds value to the Waitrose store in Tudor Hume. So why shouldn't he get paid For the effort that he puts in. And from a PR perspective, this has been a bad frickin' week for Waitrose, man. And it pains me because Dish is my favourite podcast after Truth, Lies and Work and anything else on the HubSpot Podcast Network. But I'm now, it's like, oh, can I not? I don't wanna watch it 'cause it's Waitrose and you feel they need to make a stand. And it's just, it's such a shame, particularly for a company that does pride itself on quality and shouts about how they like to integrate with the community.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think, I think this is a major mistake, and I hope it's one that they rectify very quickly and very publicly.
Al ElliottWell, I'm sure after they've listened to your take on it, they're going to be on it straight away. They'll put some kind of tiger team onto the problem.
Leanne ElliottIt sounds like you're being sarcastic, Al.
Al ElliottI am. I woke up this morning in a really sarcastic mood. You know when you just wake up and everything's like, oh, go away. And our little dog's got a collar on, you know, you know, those cones that He's walking into your knees, isn't he? He just seems to have a way to get just between, just under your knee, your kneecap, and he just comes in and runs in at about 300 miles an hour and just cracks you in there. And, uh, and he doesn't really either, he doesn't know what he's doing or knows exactly what he's doing. But anyway, Le, can we talk about my thing?
Leanne ElliottYes, let's talk about your thing.
Al ElliottOkay, so Viven or Viven, I'm not quite sure what it's called. Uh, essentially, right, this is the situation. You need to ask someone at work for something and they're off. Or perhaps they're ill, or maybe they're just not answering their emails. So what do you normally do? Well, obviously you just wait if you are polite. If you are a bit of a knob, you'll probably bombard them with DMs or call them or send them loads of emails and get 'em to pick up. But 2 guys have come up with a solution to this. They've invented a digital twin for employees. Lee, the— I'm gonna have, I'm gonna have a go at these guys' names. Um, Ashutosh Garg and Varun Karacholia.
Leanne ElliottOh, great name. Ashutosh.
Al ElliottAshutosh. Um, they're already co-founders of a $2.1 billion AI recruiting startup called Eightfold, and they've just created this new thing called— I need to know what it is. I'm going to call it Vivian from now on. Vivian is a digital twin for every employee who, in theory, knows just as much as the real person does. Uh, the way they do this is that Vivian accesses the email account, uh, Google Docs, uh, Microsoft Docs, I'm guessing all that, Slack, anything that the real person's got access to and builds up this sort of personalized— they're calling it the AI twin, but essentially it's just a, like a ChatGPT for that person. So they just, they're trained on what they know. This is what we say they told TechCrunch, link in the show notes. When each and every person has a digital twin, you can just talk to their twin as if you're talking to that person and get the response. Leah, Does this way lay madness?
Leanne ElliottThis is some scary, creepy AI stuff too, right? Oh no, I do not like this for a number of reasons. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you for why. I'm, I can see this being used in, in ways that it shouldn't. I can see it being used to make layoffs because now we've, what's the word?
Al ElliottDuplicated, cloned.
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottControl C, control V.
Leanne ElliottGot all of the knowledge that that person has and put it onto a Onto a computer system, so therefore we no longer need your knowledge, which is already— it's already tough out there for knowledge workers with, with AI anyway. I think this will take it to a whole other level. Then it's also the case of like, as we know with these, these kind of learning models, they can hallucinate, they can go wrong and come up with the wrong answers. So then where does the accountability lie if I'm on holiday and they use my clone and my clone messes up and causes a massive issue or loses the company loads of money? Is that then my fault because it's missing— it's misinformation that I've provided or my twin has provided?
Al ElliottOr—
Leanne ElliottI think that's hugely problematic. And also, you've got to wonder something as well around something kind of privacy laws, whether this is really something that individuals would want to participate in. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's business owners listening going, you know what, I'd like to remain. That'd be great. I can go on holiday and my team has all the answers that they need. Yeah, but I'm not sure it's that simple. And actually, any kind of effective leadership comes down to 20% knowledge and 80% how you manage those relationships, isn't it? So I dunno, I don't wanna be a Negative Nelly and, and kind of, kind of throw petrol on the AI fear fire, but it's not for me.
Al ElliottThrow petrol on the AI fear fire is one of my, one of my favourite things you've said this week. I love it. I love it. Well, in terms of privacy, they have They have tackled this. They call it, they've got something called Pairwise Context and Privacy Technology, which sounds a little bit like someone's just made that up. Essentially what it's supposed to do is control what information can be shared with which people. And also the real person sees all the messages and all the queries sent to their twin, and they see the messages going back and forth.
Leanne ElliottBut does that mean then that I'm gonna have to go through when I return from leave all the different queries to make sure it all makes sense? Is that just like a million emails but worse?
Al ElliottYeah, good point.
Leanne ElliottAlso, also, while I'm on my list of negative Nellies, what about things like hacking? Like, is it not a really massive, like, intellectual property risk for organizations if you could just hack into the mind of Andy Jassy or something and get all of his knowledge?
Al ElliottThat's a good point. That's a good point. I mean, I'm reading from the quote from the article. It says here, but perhaps the most important safeguard is that everyone can see the query history of the digital twin, which acts as a deterrent against people asking inappropriate questions. But No, you've just pointed that out because like you say, when you come back from holiday, the last thing you wanna do is go through your inbox. And the very last thing, and the thing you'd never wanna do is sit through there and read through all the messages that someone's been sending your twin. Well, these guys seem to think that it's gonna work and they've raised $35 million for it. I can see from a business point of view, there are some issues in that essentially Claude has now got skills, which is where you can define how he does something in a particular way.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottOr it does something. OpenAI has now got the Atlas, which is their new browser, AI browser. And you'd think that with these huge companies, they already have so much data and so much data on us that they could just launch one of these with better guardrails rather than just being, you know—
Leanne ElliottYeah, well, absolutely. I mean, they just take this podcast, they could take all 240-odd episodes and give it— then clone us. Which is why I do not approve.
Al ElliottWe do not care for this. So I'm sorry, guys. Ashutosh and Varun, nice names. We don't like your idea.
Leanne ElliottI'm out.
Al ElliottI'm out. Leanne, what else you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottHow do you feel about a 3-month notice period, Al?
Al ElliottUh, I haven't had a job since 2002. I don't really understand. I don't even know what notice period is. Notice period is when you have to, you say, I wanna quit and they go, no, you have to give me 3 months before you can go. Oh no, I don't like that at all.
Leanne ElliottLong time, right?
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So this caught my eye in The Telegraph this week. Uh, it was titled, I'm working my 3-month notice period. We're a drain to our workplaces. I was like, this is for me. Open. So if you're not sure, 3-month notice periods are literally what that is. You hand in your notice, you want to quit your job, you've got another one waiting, you need to give 3 months that job before you can move on. Typically it's been reserved for senior executives, the big decision makers, people with the handovers, but now they are creeping into ordinary white-collar jobs right across the UK. According to consultancy firm Clover HR, the number of roles advertising a 3-month notice has risen by 8% in the last 10 years, and barely 10% of employers still follow the legal minimum of 1 week's notice. Everyone else is just kind of making it up. So yeah, the piece went on to argue that it's all part of a defensive move from employers who are sick of staff moving on too quickly. A faster, younger job market means more people changing roles, sometimes every year. And one stat from insurer Canada Life shows Gen Z workers aged 18 to 25 have already had 6 employers on average, the same number as people in their late 60s.
Al ElliottWow, that's quite a stat, that.
Leanne ElliottIt is quite a stat, but then I also wonder where the stats come from. If you appreciate the context, if somebody was kind of 18, turned 18 in, in what, 2020? It's been a fairly disruptive 5 years.
Al ElliottGood point.
Leanne ElliottOr even in the UK, 2016. You know, there's, there's lots of nuance to this. I think actually, yeah, in the time, if you actually take that, look at that same thing for millennials upwards, there is no difference in terms of how quickly they'll move jobs. It's A youth thing, not a generational thing. Um, anyway, the article went on. Marie Hart from Poparchy HR—
Al ElliottOh, what's it called?
Leanne ElliottPoparchy.
Al ElliottPoparchy. I like that. I'm gonna be saying that word. I'm writing it down right now so I can use it later. Poparchy.
Leanne ElliottPoparchy HR told The Telegraph historically longer notice periods were for senior executives because it took longer to recruit and hand over, but now we're seeing them everywhere from middle management up. Uh, there's a feeling it's more acceptable now. So I think the issue comes when we actually think about what this looks in reality, because on paper you're kind of thinking, yeah, would be nice to have 3 months to deal with that, find somebody else for the role, do the handover. That's— that makes sense. It seems intuitive. But the problem is when we actually think about how this plays out in the organisation, because you've got an employee who was already mentally checked out. You've got an employee that— whose manager might take their resignation personally, and then you're in this kind of couple breakup when you're still living together for 3 months. Awkward.
Al ElliottYeah, awkward.
Leanne ElliottSo workplace researcher Christine Armstrong, uh, said if somebody really wants to go, let them go, otherwise they sit in the canteen all day and moan. And this isn't just an anecdotal thing either from Christine. Reddit is full of people describing 3-month notice periods as soul-destroying, career-killing, with managers either piling on the work or freezing them out. Employment lawyers say that notice— long notice is supposed to protect both sides. You keep getting paid, that's true. They get time to find a replacement. But compared to the US where it's just 2 weeks, or Australia and Singapore where it's a month, Britain's approach does feel a little bit excessive. Al's thoughts?
Al ElliottI can kind of see both sides. I can. I don't know. I mean, 3 months is a long time, a very long time. And if you— if your job is to answer the phone, well, 3 months is just a ridiculous amount of time. But if your job is perhaps you're working on multi-year contracts, sales contracts, Then you do need some time to hand that over. Do you know what the solution is? Someone should invent a digital twin.
Leanne ElliottYeah, well played. Nice. Nicely— what was that called? Looping back?
Al ElliottYeah, it's a callback, I think.
Leanne ElliottCallback. That's the thing, isn't it? I get where people are coming from, but I think the reality just isn't really worth it. And I think there's a better way, a better way to do it. One thing I would say is if you're a really great manager who's having these constant conversations with your people, You're never going to get a surprise resignation. You're never going to get surprised. You're going to feel it coming. If you're a really great manager, you'll even know it's coming because you don't have the career progression opportunities the person needs, or you can't offer them the same financial reward as another company could. So you know they're going to be moving on. The other thing is succession planning, man. Why are we not really focusing on succession planning? This is an operational issue as much as it is a people issue.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBecause you look at it as somebody, somebody leaving, you know, oh, they were a really key player in our team. If they left, it'd be a massive issue. So we're going to put in a 3-month notice period and then we'll deal with that issue when the, when the shush hits the fan. And we'll, we'll, um, yeah, we'll deal with it then. And it's like, cool, but what if this person's in an accident?
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottWhat if they're like long-term sick? What if, you know, something awful happens and they can't be in the business? It's a huge risk. Particularly within a small business, if this one person is very dependent, you depend on them very much in terms of revenue or customers or processes, compliance even. So I think it's a poor solution to a problem that is gonna happen. It's not a case of if, it's when somebody's gonna leave usually, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, it's like Waitrose and their knee-jerk reaction of going to Tom, the autistic guy we just talked about earlier, Saying, right, okay, no, well, you can't work here anymore. It's like, well, there's, there's nuance there. And like you said, this just sounds like someone going, oh, uh, 3 months, that's fine. Yeah, put it in as 3 months. And quite often some of these things, they're just like, they're a stroke of a pen, aren't they? So someone's writing the contract and they'll go, how many months notice? Audrey, how many months notice would you give this new guy? Uh, she'll go, ah, 3. Okay, 3. And no more is thought about it. Whereas for the average person, they're like, 3 months, man. I suppose this person would've known, or people who've got 3 months, they'll know when they take the contract. Is this something you could negotiate with perhaps when you take the job?
Leanne ElliottI doubt it. I mean, you could try, but I doubt it, particularly the way the job market is now. You might have been able to in '22, but then I think that's kind of where all this came from, wasn't it? Because people were moving on quite quickly.
Al ElliottAnd also, I suppose it goes against you if you're saying, yeah, I'll take the job, but I don't want to agree to the 3-month. That's even worse. So yeah, no, no, no, don't do that. If you're listening, don't do that. That's a very bad idea.
Leanne ElliottIt's probably a good idea to agree to it. And I think the other thing as well is that as a business owner, you need to think about your time to fill a role. If that's taking you more than 4 weeks, you've got an issue in your recruitment process. There's also something called rolling recruitment, where you're continuously screening CVs for roles that you have a lot of or are regular within your business. So you've always got this pool of talent that you can call on. So then your filter role might be a week. There's so many things you can do to be more efficient and more effective. Yeah. Proactive and this feels very defensive. And I think ultimately is inefficient.
Al ElliottYeah, I agree. I agree. Okay, so I think that's everything. Is there anything else to add to that, Leigh?
Leanne ElliottNo, that concludes our business.
Al ElliottLinks are in the show notes as always. We're gonna go to a quick break. And after that, we've got the truth or lie. This is, I mean, I'm loving a truth or lie at the moment. This is when I come up with an idea and I go, Leigh, is it true that so-and-so? And she'll go, hmm, I think so. Let me go and read up on it. And then we ask her in the pod and she just tells us.
Leanne ElliottSo that is a summary of this segment. Al, thank you so much.
Al ElliottI've gotta take the magic out of everything. So we'll see you after the break for that. And of course, our world-famous weekly workplace news, where I put your questions to Leanne. See you soon.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use And we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode. And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business, business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. So we're back to the, what the, the segment that I've just destroyed by, by basically telling everyone how it works. Uh, it is our Truth or Lie. It's our weekly myth-busting segment where we take popular psychological claims and ask, is it true or is it a lie? So far we've talked about left-brain creativity. We've talked about Maslow's theory of, uh, uh, hierarchy of needs. Um, and does your vibe attract your tribe last week, which was a really interesting one. This week I have a question.
Leanne ElliottOh.
Al ElliottThat, like me, every firstborn wants to know the answer to. Are firstborn children natural leaders? This feels like a truth to me.
Leanne ElliottI bet it does as the oldest child.
Al ElliottYes, it does.
Leanne ElliottAs the youngest child, I'm slightly defensive about this. So let's see. It is popular belief though, isn't it? In business world, on the telly. I'm thinking Succession. I'm thinking the Mitchell brothers.
Al ElliottThe Mitchell brothers. What, from?
Leanne ElliottYeah, because— Descenders.
Al ElliottYeah. That's a reference.
Leanne ElliottPhil was the young one. Grant was the eldest, wasn't he? He's like, and Grant was like always in charge until he met his time-honoured demise.
Al ElliottI think, and also that's not a spoiler because I'm pretty sure they both left about 25 years ago.
Leanne ElliottI think Phil's back. Oh, is he? Yeah.
Al ElliottHe's got a drinking problem. The actor's got a drinking problem.
Leanne ElliottHe's gonna have to—
Al Elliottthe actor's heavily into sports betting. That's that. You've heard it here first. Sorry. So Mitchell Brothers. Yep. We had Succession, which is the amazing I think is incredible. You think it's incredible.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottA series about the supposedly Rupert Murdoch family.
Leanne ElliottSupposedly, yeah.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd then we've also got, I haven't watched it yet, but the new House of Guinness on Netflix.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottMeant to be a similar thing. So yeah, you've heard it forever. The oldest kid becomes the CEO, the youngest kid becomes the artist or something in the performance area. And the middle child will, they probably just write books about being ignored. But what happens when we actually examine the data? I don't think Jill listens to the podcast, but if you do, my middle sister, I'm sorry, you're not ignored. At all. Um, anyway, lol. So is it true? The case for— well, when researchers dig into who is actually running the show, firstborns do show up more than probability would suggest that they should. So there's a 1990 study of 46 world leaders, and they found that 45% were firstborns.
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd given the family size distribution, you'd expect about 30%, so there was a significant overrepresentation. That pattern also holds across different leadership contexts. So, in 2020, a study found that CEOs were disproportionately likely to be firstborns compared to population baselines. And Swedish population data from over 700,000 people revealed firstborns score higher on psychological traits associated with leadership, such as conscientiousness, emotional stability, and persistence. But why is always the more interesting question, I feel. So, evolutionary psychologists point to resource allocation. So, basically, parents Parents unconsciously invest more in their first child, both materially and emotionally. And this shows up in things like photo albums. Count how many baby pictures of each kid there is. I'm fairly confident the oldest child has got more baby pictures than anybody else.
Al ElliottMaybe.
Leanne ElliottBy the youngest one, everyone's just bored. It's like, oh yeah, it's a baby.
Al ElliottWe've got 3 of those already.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. That kid's a spare. One study actually found that firstborns received 20 to 30 more minutes of focused parental attention every day. Compared to later-born siblings, which busts the myth, I think, that the youngest child gets all the attention. There's also the dethronement theory that comes from Alfred Adler, very famous psychologist. Firstborns experience undivided attention and then must adapt when siblings arrive. This creates what researchers call a high achievement motivation. So essentially, they're trying to maintain their special status through accomplishment. So they become mini adults. They take on responsibility for younger siblings.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd that builds early leadership experience.
Al ElliottSo is it like, this is truth?
Leanne ElliottWell, it's never quite that straightforward in psychology, is it? But we do have a lot of evidence that so far does support this claim. But as I said, it always gets a bit complicated. So the firstborn advantage does vary dramatically depending on a few things. The first is on what type of leadership we're measuring. So in family businesses, the effect is massive. Almost 80% of older family firm CEOs were firstborns. But to be fair, that is probably maybe more inheritance than leadership ability. Dad owns the company, oldest kid gets the company, or if they don't, dramatic ensues. And that's why Succession was so good. It's tradition, it's not necessarily talent. If we look at regular corporations where you can't inherit your way to the top and that firstborn advantage does shrink, It's actually only about 12 percentage points above expected. So yes, the older child is still overrepresented, but not to the scale that they are in family-owned businesses. Among startup founders, that basically vanishes. So what it's saying is that when firstborns have to compete purely on merit, their advantage gets much smaller.
Al ElliottOh, I don't like the implication you're making there, Leanne. As a firstborn, I'm extremely upset with what you've just said there.
Leanne ElliottSure you are.
Al ElliottDon't care for it.
Leanne ElliottResearchers have got very clever about testing this though. So instead of comparing random firstborns to random later borns, they compare siblings within the same family. So when you control for family wealth, education, and culture, the firstborn leadership advantage often shrinks by half or more.
Al ElliottSo in real terms, what they're saying is when you actually compare it to a family, you say there's a family, well, we've got 20 families of 4. Then it's, there's no real correlation between the firstborn being a leader because any of it's, they're all equally likely to become leaders. Is that right?
Leanne ElliottThere is a correlation, but it's half as strong as if you did it randomly. 'Cause what you're doing in that as an experimenter is you're controlling variables. So you're controlling for wealth, you're controlling for education. And when those variables are controlled, the link is much, much weaker.
Al ElliottRight. I get it.
Leanne ElliottWe also then have to think about some historical evidence. So Martin Luther King Jr., he had an older sister, Christine, making him a later-born child. And of course, his transformational approach to civil rights was, was, yeah, world-changing.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottUm, so he, he refused to accept the established system of segregation, instead reimagining society entirely, which really does get to that point about latter-born leaders who are more creative, who are much more open to wanting to change the way things are because perhaps they experience the way things are as somewhat unfair.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAs a younger child, I feel that. Meanwhile, you've then got people like Winston Churchill, who is firstborn. He excelled in wartime leadership within existing structures. You know, so if you kind of got the existing system as the older sister, older sibling does, Then they're more likely to know how to lead within it and assert their authority and influence. So a mixed bag of evidence there. In terms of the verdict, truth or lie, are firstborn children natural leaders? Well, it's true that firstborns are statistically more likely to end up in leadership positions, and they're overrepresented among CEOs, politicians, and managers by about 10 to 15 percentage points above what we'd expect by chance. But it's a lie that they're natural leaders or inherently better at leadership, because the advantage largely reflects how they're raised— more parental investment, early responsibility for siblings, and training to maintain rather than challenge authority. So when you look at revolutionary leaders or entrepreneurs who create entirely new systems, The firstborn advantage often disappears or even reverses.
Al ElliottInteresting.
Leanne ElliottSo key things at play here: early resource allocation— firstborns get more parental attention and investment— role training— they're explicitly taught to be responsible and set examples— institutional bias— so traditional organisations select for firstborn traits like rule following or risk aversion— and context matters. The advantage is huge in family businesses, uh, where it is just inheritance, modest in corporations, And minimal among entrepreneurs and smaller businesses. Of course, important caveats here. This is very much based on Western nuclear families. Um, we don't have much research in terms of other cultures and how that all works. So approach with caution. Is it true or is it a lie? Are firstborn children natural leaders? It's a lie.
Al ElliottOh man, that really disappoints me. I wanted it to be true. I so want— of all the ones, I wanted this one to be true. But obviously, because, because I'm first born. But it is kind of weird as a first born, like you're the, you're the youngest. I'm, I wonder if there's any, if there's any correlation between partners, like romantic partners, whether they choose, or even business partners, because my business partner in the property business is the youngest of 3. Yeah. I'm the oldest of 4.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThere you go. Right. When we finish this, go and do some research on that because that would be, that would be really interesting.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI, I have a feeling. That, that would be, there would be a higher than normal correlation. Am I using the right words here?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah.
Al ElliottI'm trying to sound like a psychologist.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. More than chance. I mean, yeah, again, intuitively, the face validity of that is strong, isn't it? You've got to think in terms of complementary traits. You wouldn't want to say 2 people with same leadership type mentality or capability. Um, but then equally, what we learned last week is that, you know, similar people attract.
Al ElliottYeah, true.
Leanne ElliottSo, um, yeah, I'll dig into it, but I'd imagine It will either depend or it's not true.
Al ElliottFair enough. Fair enough.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottSo, and also, by the way, I've got a, I've got a longitudinal study for you.
Leanne ElliottOh.
Al ElliottBut it's only got a sample. It's gone and gone for 19 years, but it's only a sample survey of one partnership, which is me and Chris, because I've known him for 19 years.
Leanne ElliottWell, 2. There's me and you as well.
Al ElliottOh, yeah. But I was gonna say not romantic, but of course we're business as well. Yeah. So, yeah, we've got 2.
Leanne ElliottOf course we're business as well. How rude.
Al Elliott100%. Of partnerships are always the older and the younger. If you're listening and you do have a partner, like a business partner, let us know. Go on LinkedIn.
Leanne ElliottLet us know the dynamic.
Al ElliottYeah, that'd be interesting.
Leanne ElliottI'd like to study only child co-founders. Can't imagine there's many of them.
Al ElliottBet they're a pain in the arse to work with. Bet they are. Anyway, we're on to the World Famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. By the way, are there any links in the show notes for the previous truth or lie, or was it just all me?
Leanne ElliottUm, it's not made up, but if anyone does want the studies, yeah, I can leave links if you want.
Al ElliottIf you want the studies, email Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYeah, drop me an email, hello@truthliesandwork.com.
Al ElliottOkay, so onto the world famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. You know by now Leanne's a chartered occupational psychologist. I should be able to say that without stammering. A chartered occupational psychologist and also my former business partner based on the last few minutes. So question number 1, how do I manage chaos when hiring? Without spending a fortune. So I am a founder of a small tech startup. We're looking to hire our next team member. I'm excited about finding someone great, but the hiring process is an absolute nightmare. Right now we're posting on a few job sites and my inbox is getting slammed with hundreds of applications. I'm trying to review every single one, but it feels like I'm drowning. I'm worried I'll accidentally miss the right candidate and it's taking up so much of my time. Uh, we definitely don't wanna pay for an expensive recruitment system, but I do need a better solution. Lee, what, how, how can you help, Lee?
Leanne ElliottWell, I do have some thoughts on this in terms of, of being a recruiter for a small business that has a high number of applications, but I also wanted to bring in our friends at The Curve Group who specialise in high-volume recruitment. So here is Liam Read, Head of Recruitment Operations.
Al ElliottHonestly, this one's always tricky. I hear this a lot. People jump straight to, let's get some fancy AI tool to do the first-round screening. But those systems can be seriously pricey, especially for a small tech startup. What I'd suggest, if the, the job boards do allow it, is to add maybe 2, 3, 4 absolute must-haves right into the job post before anyone can even apply. Most platforms then will just be able to auto-filter or reject applications who don't tick those boxes. That way you're not having to waste time. hours even sifting through all those irrelevant CVs. The system does that first pass, or the job board does that first pass for you, and you can spend time on those stronger matches. It's super simple, low-cost fix, but it can make hiring that feel less chaotic without needing that fancy recruitment software. Leanne, anything you would add to that, or any thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI think it's a really good tactic Um, Liam obviously knows what he's talking about, knows probably much more than I do about this world, but that's certainly something that I would always— I've always done, always recommend for organisations I work with, is to have that minimum essential criteria. And like Liam said, 3 or 4 points that are just non-negotiable. They're not the nice to have. You've proven through a job analysis that these things are fundamental for the role that you're recruiting for. Awesome. If you can get your platform to, to ask those questions and tick, tick. I think LinkedIn definitely does do that. I'm sure the platforms do as well. The only slight problem to be aware of with that is it could potentially lead to an increase in applications from majority groups such as white middle-class males who tend to overestimate their competence and may be more likely to tick those boxes even if they don't have the minimum criteria.
Al ElliottI don't like the way you're looking me directly in the eyes when you're saying this.
Leanne ElliottSo, just to be mindful of, just to be mindful of, it might not necessarily stop some people from applying regardless. If you don't even have that capability on your job board, I'd say that's your first sift. And I think that's something that you can get, you know, a really great business support person to do, is that first sift where you look at the, the COVID letter and look at the, the CV and you just go, it has to hit these 4 points. It's a yes or a no. Yes, forward to the, the mailbox of the hiring managers.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottNo, put it in a folder to send a sorry, you know, not successful on this occasion email. Because you're just going to rattle through them. And I think this is where some of the myths come from, where recruiters will only spend 10 seconds looking at a CV. And I'll be honest, in my first sift, I spend about 10 seconds looking because I need to see these minimum criteria. And then you can also have quality checks in there as well. So, everything that does go into the rejection pile, The hiring manager will then look through just to make sure, you know, look through 10 or so to make sure that it has been an accurate thing. But I think that's a really good, a really, really good idea from Liam there. Other things that I've done is then include as the next stage of the recruitment process, some kind of work sample test, nothing too—
Al ElliottOnerous.
Leanne ElliottOnerous, thank you. But something that's maybe going to take the candidate 15 minutes, half an hour max to really hit some more essential criteria. In my experience, that usually sifts out about another 50 to 60% of people. You then still might not have dug into their CV in any more detail, but you're then going to have the results of the work sample test, which again, you're going to have indicators in terms of what good performance on that test looks like. At that point, you might go, right, this is a minimum criteria to pass as such. Anything that doesn't pass doesn't get through. Anything that does, maybe that's the point where we'll look at in more detail at the CVs, their specific experience, blah, blah, blah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd move them on. If you've got a job that's going to get a lot of applications and you want to be thorough, having a really smartly designed recruitment process that is based on a job analysis and is predictive of work performance, it's really going to help you from a time perspective to, yeah, to get through as many as you can without overlooking really good people.
Al ElliottQuestion number 2, my manager invited me for lunch. Can I say no? So last week my manager asked me if I wanted to go to lunch together, and I'm a bit unsure about it. To be honest, I'd rather keep things strictly professional and use my lunch break to myself. Is it weird to decline or say I'd rather stay at my desk, or would accepting actually be smart for my career? Now they did set a bit of, a little bit of context. In last week's situation, I didn't say a flat no, but pretended I had to work over lunch at my desk, um, which of course meant I had to actually do that rather than Rather than go out for lunch. So it wasn't a great situation. So I think the upshot is, manager says to an employee, do you want to go for lunch? They want to say no. Where do they stand?
Leanne ElliottYou are well within your rights to say no and set a boundary, whether that be professional, personal, any reason at all. It's your time. It's your non-paid time of your workday to spend however you want. And also, it is a little bit inappropriate for your manager to ask you this without providing some context. And this could be context that you might ask. So, it might be like, sure, is there anything in particular that you wanted to discuss over lunch, or is it more of a casual thing? Oh, it's more of a casual thing. Okay, well, to be honest, like, I think I'm just— I'd just rather take my lunch hour myself. I don't really kind of want to blur the lines between kind of work and friends, and I hope you understand, blah, blah, blah. If they're like, actually, I want to talk to you about this specific thing about work, it's then saying, well, I think it'd actually be more appropriate for us to book in a meeting for that in work time for us to have that conversation if it is something that is needed. Another thing you could do is kind of go, oh, um, yeah, okay, that's great. Let's bring Sandra and John and Al and Leanne with us as well. Make sure you talk to them first and they're free and they're going to back you up. And then make it more of a social thing, which could then give a clear, this isn't cool, to your manager without necessarily being— coming across as rude. In terms of will it impact your career, it might, but if it does, this isn't a manager you want to work for in the long term anyway. So. I think ultimately it will give you all the information that, that you need.
Al ElliottSee, now I would approach it very differently. I'd approach it the opposite way and I'd go, yeah, I think you should go for lunch just once and find out what the situation is because you never know. This manager could be like, right, okay, we're out. I want to talk to you about something quickly. I'm going to, I'm going to set up my own gig and I want you to come along. But obviously I couldn't ask you that in the office. Is that something you might be interested in? And I'd be like, oh, cool. I'm going to go and work for a new startup or something. That's the way I'd look at it. But then I suppose I am endlessly optimistic and also probably quite privileged.
Leanne ElliottBeing a man.
Al ElliottYeah, I think so. So yeah, it's kind of tough. And that is something if you are a manager and you're like, oh, I've done this before, maybe consider that from what Leanne just pointed out. Just, and a man. That's that, in that one 3-word statement, I think she summed up why sometimes us men don't quite get it. If, and it could be the other way around, it could be.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it could be. Cougarville. Yeah, yeah. It could be, it could be. There absolutely are women perpetrators. That is, that is true. I think the thing is, if it is an instance like that, your manager is going to have another way to get in touch with you. They're probably going to have your number, or, or they'll say, yeah, let's have it in work, and it'll be a very discreet— I mean, in a meeting room meeting going, we don't want to talk much, setting up my new thing, want to bring you with you. Is this a conversation you're interested in? If so, can I give you a call after work? Yeah, okay, cool. You know, it doesn't have to be— I don't know, I just think it's for any, any manager, I guess, more listening, who is maybe offended when they try and do this nice thing for a member of staff by taking them out for lunch without the context, without the reason for it, without more people involved. It just becomes a risk factor. It becomes a risk factor as a woman, as a female professional, as any professional, but, you know, particularly for, for women who are much more likely to experience sexual harassment in the workplace. It's something shocking. I think like, like 3 out of 5 women have experienced this in the workplace. So yeah, it's understandable why this person is reluctant. So if you're a manager, just don't put somebody in that position in the first place.
Al ElliottThis is how old I am. When I was doing my teacher training, then on a Friday, my manager used to take me out for lunch and we used to go to the pub and have a couple of pints.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottYeah, that was back in To 1996. Good God, I'm old. Okay, question number 3. I'm spending $50 a month on office birthdays and I want to opt out.
Leanne Elliott50 quid a month?
Al ElliottIt's a big team. Hi, Leanne. My team's birthday celebrations at work include a $25 contribution each for food, decorations, and a gift. To be honest, I'm not comfortable paying that. I can afford it. But I see work as work. I don't socialize with any of them outside work, so I feel I'm just handing over money to strangers. Am I being petty? Can I say no without looking like I'm not a team player? Just for context, I think there's on average, there's 2 birthdays a month.
Leanne ElliottI think it's one. Yeah. No, I did that math.
Al ElliottJust thought, just in case you couldn't do the maths. I mean, you probably got your calculator out. So Leanne, what was, what's the situation here?
Leanne ElliottOh, oh, this is a tricky, tricky, tricky one. You said you can afford it. I'd probably just be like, it's annoying, but whatever. You know, it's— it will seem like you're not a team player. It will come across as a bit like, oh, John's a bit moody about that, isn't he? Equally, I think it is a very large contribution on a monthly basis to make, particularly with people you're not particularly close to. And there could also be people on the team who can't afford it and are finding this a bit of a stretch. Have a conversation with your manager. You could always raise it in a way that, I'm concerned that some employees might find this financial contribution too high, particularly given the current increase in prices and cost of living? Is this something we need to revise with that in mind? Perhaps we can do a joint birthday celebration for these people that, that have the birthday in the same month, or we just buy like a $5 cake from the supermarket or something. I understand where this comes from. I understand that you want to celebrate it. I've been in organizations that had similar things in terms of Contributing an amount of money, but it wasn't $25 per person, that's for sure. What did they get? $25 per person on the team.
Al ElliottWell, reading into this, 'cause I've got no more context, but reading into this, if it's $25 for each person, from each person in the office, and there's on average 2 birthdays a month.
Leanne ElliottYeah, that's a team of at least 24.
Al ElliottI'm gonna do the maths here. 24 times—
Leanne Elliott25.
Al Elliott24 times 25. Um, that is $600.
Leanne ElliottWhat are you buying him?
Al ElliottWell, according to this, it says food, decorations, a gift, and a brand new car. No, what are they— what? This is 25s too much. 25s way too much.
Leanne Elliott25s too much. Yeah, this is excessive.
Al ElliottSomeone's on the take here, aren't they? Someone's sliding, sliding some money off the top there. This isn't right.
Leanne ElliottNo, it's a bit much. I think, I think it's fair to bring, bring that up, especially in these times.
Al ElliottYeah, especially in these times. In fact, I think in— on Friends, the series Friends, There was an entire episode about Ross not wanting to contribute to a cake or something, or someone's retirement, and he ended up eating the cake. Yeah, that's—
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, joking aside, you do have to play it politically smartly, don't you? So it doesn't impact your relationships at work. But I think if you go to your manager with the view of, this seems quite a lot, times have changed, times are a bit tougher, do we need to revise this down? Or maybe given the current climate and how people are struggling and everything that's going on politically and the marginalisation of minority groups, what if you took that $25 per person and gave it to a charity?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI mean, a culture thing could be that rather than suggesting, rather than celebrating individual birthdays, you celebrate team stuff.
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo maybe when you get somebody new to join the team, or when somebody leaves or goes on retirement, or perhaps when you get in a brand new client, or you get some really great feedback from a customer, celebrate the cultural things that actually reinforce relationships rather than the individual birthdays that we've all got. We're not special.
Al ElliottWe've We've all got one. We've all got one. Anyway, so that's all for now, I think, Leanne. If you have your own question you'd like me to put to Leanne, then check out the show notes. You can get in touch with us there. Join us next Tuesday for another edition of This Week in Work. Oh, and if you're a founder of a business that's 5 or more years old and has 15 to 75 employees, I want to talk to you. We're creating a new programme and I really want your honest feedback on it. Now, I'm not gonna try and sell this to you. In fact, I wanna show you the programme and go, This is what it is. Why wouldn't you buy it? Because that's gonna help us to overcome objections. And I also wanna hear your story because I'm just a nosy bugger. I like to hear people's stories.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's actually just lovely to connect with listeners as well, isn't it?
Al ElliottAnd it is.
Leanne ElliottSee what they're up to.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So, um, uh, there's a guy called John. I'm not gonna go into surname, but a guy called John who got in touch with me, um, we had a lovely chat. He gave me some great ideas and, and I'm like, I think he's a good mate now. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for a beer with John. He doesn't know it yet, but I'm gonna go for a beer with him.
Leanne ElliottSpecial friend.
Al ElliottSpecial friend. Oh no, I'm gonna get the smallest violin out in the world.
Leanne ElliottJoin us on Thursday as well. I'm not gonna lie, Al and I are on holiday this week. We're not even here. This is just coming to you from, from a cloud, from the sky.
Al ElliottIt's our digital twins who are doing this episode.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so because we are off, we need to practice what we preach. If we just squished in 2 weeks of work into 1, then we wouldn't be very, very good people in terms of what we're telling other leaders to do.
Al ElliottSo it wouldn't be very good episodes.
Leanne ElliottExactly. So instead, we're squashing half a week's work, one and a half weeks' work into one week. And we are bringing you an episode from the archives. Al and I do this when we're away and we go back through and we pick out a conversation that is either really timely, really topical, or we just loved. And this one I loved. Angela Foster, the Petite Style Coach, tells us all about how to dress for success. And the surprising psychology behind workwear.
Al ElliottYeah. And if you are not petite or not female, it's still plenty of stuff in there for you because later on she talks about men. And it's also, as a man, it's kind of interesting to hear the psychology behind it. I was, I felt a bit like I was snooping on a private phone call.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Like you shouldn't be listening.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIt was quite cool. Right. So we will see you on Thursday. We won't see you, but our prerecord will, and we'll see you Bye! Bye-bye!