Episode 252 · 25 November 2025 · 52:40
QuitTok returns, rising Gen-Z confidence and LinkedIn’s most memorable interviews. PLUS! Do high achievers really sleep less?
QuitTok returns, rising Gen-Z confidence and LinkedIn’s most memorable interviews. PLUS! Do high achievers really sleep less?
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LinkedIn's most unforgettable interview moments
news roundup#interviews#linkedin#viral
QuitTok makes a comeback
news roundup#quittok#resignation#trends
Confidence rises at the bottom, falls at the top
news roundup#confidence#entry-level#leadership
Truth or Lie: Do high achievers really sleep less?
truth or lie#sleep#high-achievers#myth
Workplace Surgery: Calling out a micromanaging colleague
workplace surgery#micromanagement#workplace-advice#conflict
Workplace Surgery: Occupational health for small UK employers
workplace surgery#occupational-health#uk-employers#small-business
Workplace Surgery: Reaching the top but feeling flat
workplace surgery#career-progression#burnout#leadership
Show notes
QuitTok Returns, Rising Gen-Z Confidence & LinkedIn's Most Memorable Interviews. PLUS! Do High Achievers Really Sleep Less?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why QuitTok is making a comeback, why entry-level confidence is rising while leaders' confidence slides, and the wildest interview stories from LinkedIn. Plus, in Truth or Lie: do high achievers really sleep less?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. LinkedIn's most unforgettable interview moments
Maria Healey's viral post collected hundreds of wild interview stories — from karaoke auditions to NDA threats to people removing their trousers mid-interview. The thread shows how interviews reveal culture instantly: the respect, the pressure, the humour, the red flags. Source →
2. QuitTok makes a comeback
Employees are once again filming their resignations and posting them online. It might look like drama, but it's become a visible dataset for HR — real-time feedback on broken processes, toxic behaviours and unmet expectations. Instead of treating it as a PR problem, leaders can treat it as insight: what makes someone quit loudly is usually what made them feel unheard quietly. Source →
3. Confidence rises at the bottom, falls at the top
Fast Company reports a surprising shift: entry-level workers are feeling more hopeful, while senior leaders' confidence continues to slide. Younger employees have grown up adapting to chaos; leaders are carrying the load of uncertainty, hybrid tensions and AI-driven decision fatigue. Confidence is no longer about hierarchy — it's about adaptability. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: "Do High Achievers Sleep Less?"
Leanne tackles the long-standing myth popularised by Thatcher, Musk and the productivity world: can you really perform at your best on four hours of sleep? She breaks down what decades of sleep science actually shows — and why biological "short sleepers" are the rare exception, not the blueprint.
The verdict? Lie — for 99% of the population. Regularly sleeping four hours is linked to all-cause mortality, blood pressure changes, inflammation markers and hormonal disruption. But there is one fascinating exception: rare genetic mutations (like the SIK3N783Y mutation studied in 2025) allow a tiny fraction of people to genuinely thrive on four to six hours. The rest of us are just storing up a sleep debt.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Micromanagement: "Am I wrong for calling out a micromanaging colleague?"
- Occupational health: "Do I need to offer Occupational Health as a small UK employer?"
- Flatness at the top: "I've reached the top but feel completely flat — what now?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
🎧 Coming Up Thursday
We're talking to Christian Laing, Co-founder & Director of Stand Out Socks and BBC's Dragons' Den Investment Winner 2024. Stand Out Socks is a social enterprise created after Christian saw his brother Ross, who has Down syndrome, repeatedly overlooked by employers. We explore purpose, resilience, family upheaval, loss, inclusion and what it means to build work that gives people space to shine.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottGood news!
Al ElliottYay!
Leanne ElliottConfidence is rising among entry-level staff and falling at the top. There's always a catch, isn't there? A new Glassdoor report shows early career workers are feeling more hopeful while senior leaders are quietly struggling. So what is behind the split, and should we be worried about where leadership confidence is heading?
Al ElliottAlso this week, QuitTok is back. People are quitting their jobs and they're filming it. It's making a lot of HR leaders quite nervous. Is this as simple as Gen Z attention-seeking? Pesky Gen Zs. Or is it a very public signal that something deeper has gone wrong with how we listen to our employees?
Leanne ElliottPlus, in Truth or Lie, we're tackling one of the biggest myths in the business world. Do high achievers really need less sleep? From Margaret Thatcher to Elon Musk, the legend says 4 hours a night is all you need. Let's see what the science says, shall we? This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help you build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWe'll be getting stuck into this week's episode after a very quick word from our lovely sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems, and in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Okay, welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the— we've been saying this for 252, well, no, half that, about 200 episodes, your favourite time of the week. Is it really your favourite time of the week?
Leanne ElliottSure.
Al ElliottFor production purposes, it is Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottIt is. I'll cue that jingle.
Al ElliottPressing the button right now. Go ahead, my love.
Leanne ElliottWhat is your most memorable interview moment?
Al ElliottYou're talking to me?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottI've only had about 4 interviews ever in my entire life. Mm-hmm. My most memorable one was when I went to see a guy and it was for a commission-only door-to-door.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottBut they don't tell you that. What they do is they say, great, come, come in for interview. And then they just ask you a little bit about yourself. Yeah, right. Okay, we're gonna go out and see some customers. And you get on a train with a stranger and then you go out and knock on some doors. And at no point has anyone said until the, until literally knock on that first door, at no point does anyone say, we're knocking on doors. They say, we are a direct sales organisation who meets the customers where they are. That was an extremely strange situation.
Leanne ElliottWell, that is, that is quite strange. That is quite strange. I asked you this question, Al, because it's a question asked by Maria Healey on LinkedIn this week. You know, I like to keep an eye on the LinkedIn. Maria's in marketing operations. If you're interested. And she asked, what's your most memorable job interview moment? I'll go first. In the early 2000s, I was told I couldn't be interviewed at Glamour Shots— yes, that one— because I was wearing jeans. In my defense, they were the dark trouser-like jeans from Express. I was in my early 20s and I hadn't been told this was a no-go ahead of time. Also around the same time, I had a humiliating interview with the Picture People in which I had to pretend the hiring manager interviewing me Was a stubborn child. I had to make smile for the camera. Wow.
Al ElliottJust so we're clear, what's glamour shots?
Leanne ElliottGlamour, I did look into this 'cause I must admit my UK brain went there as well. We use glamour, I think, in a slightly different way culturally.
Al ElliottI was thinking glamour shots a bit like a—
Leanne ElliottGlamour model.
Al ElliottOnlyFans in print.
Leanne ElliottPage 3 of The Sun, yeah. No, glamour shots is like, you know how they have those companies where you'll go to the studio and you'll get your hair and makeup done and then they'll take really awkward pictures of you?
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottIt's that.
Al ElliottOh, I see. Okay.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, I thought this is a really good post, but as always, the party is happening in the comments. People started sharing their most memorable interview moments, and they're just brilliant. Full disclosure, I have asked Maria for her permission to talk about her post and the people who left the comments. So if you do go to the original post and you're wondering why I haven't read some out, it's because those people either didn't get back to me in time or didn't want to participate.
Al ElliottGrumpy.
Leanne ElliottThey probably just didn't get back to me in time, but some people did, and we love them for it. First up, Dr. Elaine Smith, friend of the show. Um, so Dr. Elaine said, definitely being asked to walk heel-toe at my police medical and proceeding to do more of a tame dance move than the required assessment of balance. Still mortified and not in the police.
Al ElliottWhat's heel-toe? Is that where you're like— is that what the Americans do for drunk Driving test. Yeah, I think it's when you have to walk along a line or something. Oh, I see. Right. Okay. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottI don't think I could do that. Yeah, I think she went more waltz than balance. Then we had Sean Morrissey. Sean said, during a previous job search, a stealth startup put me through a first interview with a panel of their co-founders. No one would tell me what the company did, but meanwhile, the CEO was openly asking for someone who would commit upfront to working 5 years for this mystery business.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottThat's confidence here.
Al ElliottConfidence or paranoia. Yeah, just kept doing ND NDA. That's not an ND NDA, I just stumbled. An NDA, non-disclosure agreement.
Leanne ElliottReally strong NDA. An ND NDA.
Al ElliottNon-disclosure, non-minimal disclosure. Yeah, no, sorry, carry on.
Leanne ElliottYeah, um, Sean Lockhart— sorry, not Sean, Stephen Lockhart, who's in pre-sales and enablement. That's nice. Uh, Stephen said, I was once asked if I One of my favourites. I was once asked if I like karaoke in a peer group interview. I responded with, you are my fire, my one desire.
Al ElliottDid he do dance moves?
Leanne ElliottI don't know. I don't know. I hope he did. But I'll be honest, if I was in a peer group interview and somebody did that, I'd be like, mate, welcome.
Al ElliottWelcome.
Leanne ElliottWelcome. Brilliant. Another one came from Parmeet Singh. Doot, I think is how you pronounce it. Apologies, Parmeen, if I've not pronounced that correctly. Who said, once during a virtual interview, I didn't know how to answer a question and I froze. The interview panel, the interview panel thought my screen froze, so it gave me a few seconds to gather my thoughts.
Al ElliottThat's brilliant. Oh, I'm doing that next time in an interview. I'm gonna do that.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat is brilliant. If I'm like, what's the next question? Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. Well done, Parmeen. I love that.
Leanne ElliottIt's, yeah, it's a very, it's thinking on your feet, that one, isn't it? Thinking on your feet. We had then one from Bethany Kamasora. Lovely name.
Al ElliottThere's some great names on this thread.
Leanne ElliottI know. And then here's us with like Al and Leanne Elliott.
Al ElliottThere's us, Al.
Leanne ElliottHello. Yeah. So Bethany, Bethany and I had a little chat actually. So her comment said, I was asked, are you smart? Spell Microsoft.
Al ElliottWe can all spell Microsoft. I think most of us can spell Microsoft. It's not—
Leanne ElliottYeah. Another very odd CEO here. So Bethany told me for backstory, the guy ended up being a total psycho, pressured me into substantially lower pay than I was making, and basically He basically told me I'd be stupid if I didn't accept. I was in college and felt very overcome by his intense toxic masculine energy. I accepted and literally walked out the door and emailed him, told him I wasn't interested. He went off the rails, threatening to call my current employer and telling me I was making a big mistake, huge, um, and I better be careful. Such a wild experience.
Al ElliottOh goodness.
Leanne ElliottBethany, I dodged a bullet there. Yes, you did. Um, a couple more. Karen Butterfield, another excellent name, Karen.
Al ElliottCome on, I love it.
Leanne ElliottKaren Butterfield, um, who is Strategic marketing expert. This was a lovely one. I also had a little chat with Karen as well afterwards. Her comment said, my twin and I had been cleaning a bed and breakfast and babysitting for years, but when we turned 16, we interviewed at a restaurant, yes, together, and we both got the job. We high-fived. Thinking back, it was kind of adorable. I loved working with my sister.
Al ElliottOh, that's cute.
Leanne ElliottIsn't that sweet?
Al ElliottAlthough if I had an identical twin, I would definitely, I'd definitely just not tell them I got a twin and then I could work half the hours.
Leanne ElliottSo anyway, any more? Yes. Al Popper. Oh my God.
Al ElliottThese names.
Leanne ElliottYou can't make this up. Al's, this is, you know, the them, me, them.
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottThem, you can't interview in jeans. Me, removes pants. Them, well played.
Al ElliottVery good, Al. Very good. Just goes to show that all the Als in the world are funny. Al Bundy, Al Popper, Al Elliott. Yes, very good. Indeed. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottThank you again to Maria Healey for putting on such a brilliant post. I'm really enjoying these lighter posts at the minute. And yes, we did get some, some light trauma dumping there as well, which, you know, sharing, sharing is caring, but some brilliantly funny ones in there as well. Is there a winner for you, Al? Do you have a favorite?
Al ElliottI, well, obviously I have to stick together. I think Al's comment was brilliant, although I suspect that's more for comedic value than actually what happened. I, you know, I'm just, I'm just with the names. Yeah, I've got— I'm loving Kamisora. I'm loving Butterfield. I'm loving Singdoot. Just to be honest, I'm just enjoying all of them.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah. Yeah.
Al ElliottWell done, all of you.
Leanne ElliottYou're all winners. Congratulations. Yep. I will leave a link to the original post from Maria Healey in the show notes.
Al ElliottEnjoy. Whoa, go. Sorry. Go on.
Leanne ElliottNo, go on, please.
Al ElliottI was going to say, and then what I've seen this week, and then I thought you're about to invite me to tell me what I've seen.
Leanne ElliottI was, I was, but But please.
Al ElliottI just jumped in.
Leanne ElliottGo for it.
Al ElliottThank you for asking me, Leanne, what I've seen this week. I've seen something this week, which also I've seen about, about 5 years ago. It's something called, well, it's basically quitting in public, which is not a new thing, but I did see a new name for it, which was QuitTok, which I thought was quite funny. QuitTok, where people—
Leanne ElliottI don't, I don't think that, is that new?
Al ElliottIs that not new?
Leanne ElliottI dunno. I thought this was already a thing, but maybe I'm thinking like rage quitting or something.
Al ElliottThat's very kind of you. Thank you. So—
Leanne ElliottBut it's back. It didn't exist before. It's back.
Al ElliottIt was big during the Great Resignation back in 2021. It's having a resurgence and this new name that no one's ever heard of before called QuitTok. Now, I think at first we might go, oh my goodness, what are you doing? Why are you filming you quitting on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube Shorts, whatever? But Actually, I was thinking about this. There are enough, there are enough videos on there now to create kind of almost like a database of reasons why people might not be happy in their jobs. So if you look at it from an HR point of view of going, oh, really bad. Oh, bad, unprofessional. And going, hold on a minute, people are putting in public why you're actually quitting. And I thought that was a really, really—
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottYeah, I thought that was really cool. Um, so I mean, basically my thought was if someone's annoyed enough to post publicly, then you, it's serious enough that you should take it seriously. So, um, I prepared a report. When I say I, I mean Google Gemini. One of my first times using Google Gemini to do this kind of thing. Normally I'm a Claude boy, normally. Um, but this report, which I will give anyone who wants it, just, uh, just get in touch with us, I'll give you this report. But, um, they said these are the top 4 reasons why people leave. Toxic leadership and malignant culture. Yes, well, of course, I mean, that's pretty obvious. Uh, but they did say underneath this, employees are not leaving jobs, they are fleeing managers. If there was one thing you did in your organization, Leanne, what would it be?
Leanne ElliottTrain your managers, Al.
Al ElliottSo there you go. Burnout and wellbeing collapse. Someone once— this is a QuickTok creator apparently said, it's like an elephant took its foot off my chest when they quit. Quite visceral imagery there. Again, Gemini might have made this up. Uh, the number 3 is compensation and feeling undervalued. Uh, the issue— this is what Gemini says— the issue is rarely with just a dollar amount. It's the combination of low pay with feeling unappreciated. Apparently, 63% of workers who quit in 2021 cited low pay as the top reason. The source is Pew Research, 2022. There you go. That sounds reasonable, doesn't it? Sounds like— and the, and the 4th one was lack of growth and role mismatch. People saying that they didn't have any advancement opportunities, or when they're— this is what Gemini says— when employees are mismatched to a role, there's no clear path forward, disengage and leave. Leanne, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI mean, it's not groundbreaking, but it is showing that It is showing that if business owners, leaders aren't paying attention to what actually creates employee engagement and engages people in the workplace, then they are going to leave. And we know this from the research. What are the ones you said there, Al, in terms of, um, culture?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo that's usually because then people are misaligned with their culture, doesn't reflect the same values, the way that they want to operate in the world. Uh, managers, relationship with managers, single biggest impact on productivity, performance, well-being. If that ain't working, They aren't working. Um, pay and being valued, that's recognition, which is hugely important. And I said, I've said a few times recently, recognition is coming back.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's coming back in a way that is expanding beyond, uh, salary and benefits. Wellbeing, that's resilience, and that's not just down to individual resilience, that's how an organisation helps employees build their resilience by setting boundaries in the workplace. And in terms of development, that's 2 main things in terms of role. My role isn't stretching me enough, and resources. I'm not getting the resources to invest in myself and my professional development that I want. You've just named all 6 of the 7 Rs in the RX7, which is our personal employee engagement model and survey. So, not groundbreaking for me, but anecdotally, these types of stories, or anecdotal stories, tend to resonate a lot more with people.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, if you're a business owner and wondering what you can do, I would say go and read Al's report and get yourself onto the TikTok.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. I also asked Gemini, I said, why would people want to do this in public? And Gemini was— Gemini basically said, the key reason is nobody at work would listen. Public resignation is a symptom of failed internal channels. So I mean, there is also those people who want to do it for engagement. Sorry, if you can hear a slight noise in the background, we've got a little puppy at the moment. No, he's not a puppy, he's 9 years old, but he's managed to do something to his tail. So he's in a massive cone and this cone is bigger than him and basically scrapes it along the wall. So you're going to hear a little bit of that. I apologise, can't take that out in post. There's no anti-cone button on Final Cut Pro. Anyway, Lee, what else have you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottEntry-level workers are feeling more hopeful than their bosses right now.
Al ElliottThat's interesting. That's a bit of a turn, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt is a bit of a turn. This was the headline in an article this week in Fast Company by Susan Roman. I have been in touch with Susan and given her some, a little hat tip for the quality of her article. She's got some more, more research coming out, so we'll keep an eye. We'll stay connected, Susan. Susan is a senior lecturer of management at Bentley University and is commenting in this article on some data from Glassdoor. Which is basically, as we kind of alluded to, showing the opposite of what we usually think the trend is in terms of confidence in the workplace.
Al ElliottJust in case anyone's not heard of Glassdoor, Glassdoor is almost like a TripAdvisor for jobs.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, nice, nice. So according to Glassdoor's latest data, confidence is actually going up among early and mid-career workers. So entry-level employees have seen confidence rise by 1.9 percentage points. And mid-level roles up 2.3%. And this is after a year of layoffs, restructures, hiring freezes, all the things that should make younger workers feel a little bit nervous. But instead, they're stabilising and in a lot of cases starting to feel more empowered. So Susan suggests a few reasons for this. First, she said that Gen Z and younger millennials essentially grew up in disruption.
Al ElliottLockdown.
Leanne ElliottRemote schooling, unpredictable job markets. Instability was kind of their starting point. It was their baseline norm. So they're not treating change like it's a crisis. They're just treating it as like, this is just the way things are. Second, careers for early-stage workers look completely different now. And in terms, specifically in terms of identity and stability, not coming from one employer. So we're seeing a lot of mixed ways of working in terms of projects, skill building, personal networks. Yeah. Online communities, jobs that are moving more fluidly between roles and industries. And it gives them a kind of psychological safety net that if one thing fails, they've got other things that they can lean into. Also, and I thought this is a really interesting one, Susan believes that they are defining success differently. So it's not about climbing a ladder, it's about agency, which is basically our ability to shape what's around us to have some sort of control in terms of our working week, flexibility of working, making these more lateral job moves to develop skills, contributing ideas early, just these small doses of autonomy are building confidence. Interesting stuff. At a senior level though, Susan says confidence has been falling month after month, and it's actually a pretty stark picture. So leaders are under pressure from every direction— hybrid work, Global economic uncertainty, political instability affecting trade, retention issues that never fully recovered after the Great Resignation, and now the pressure of AI, both strategically and ethically. There's no neat answers. Decision fatigue is setting in. Susan also noticed that at board level, confidence is slipping. So this is the highest of the highest levels. Many leaders feel torn between being empathetic and being decisive. And the emotional load of doing both all the time is wearing people down. We call that emotional labour in the science. So Susan notes that some executives are questioning whether they're keeping up, especially as younger employees move faster, adapt faster, and expect more transparency. I'm not gonna lie, Gen Z are also quite quick to point out how irrelevant we are as older generations, millennials included. So that doesn't help. So anyway, Susan LinkedIn says you're getting a split workforce where younger employees are getting confidence through adaptability, community, and self-direction, and senior leaders are losing confidence because they're trying to create stability in a world where stability just isn't available. Alastair, thoughts?
Al ElliottI've heard you say this so many times. Gen Z, basically, they want, like you said, agency. They want control over their life. Work's a part of their life. So that makes sense that there's a bit of chaos, but they're like, that's fine, I'll just get another job, I'll get another gig. You know, I've got my side hustle to keep me going. That'll pay the rent. And then my job's one for perhaps, I don't know, topping up or something. If you do like, if you're interested in this, then we've got a friend of the show, Rob Kalvarovsky, who's coming back on. He's gonna talk about capitalizing on chaos. He says essentially that 2026 is all gonna be about chaos and there's huge opportunities for people to go in there and capitalize on it. So it's gonna be very, very interesting. But bored of life.
Leanne ElliottTotally.
Al ElliottSee, I'd get this because what I'm hearing As like a layperson is the lower down the, the chain, the responsibility chain, the fewer responsibilities you got. So you're like, ah, be fine. The higher up, the more responsibilities you're getting and the more pressure you're getting. So it's like, oh my God. Like there's so many, um, articles I've seen recently saying that nobody wants to be a manager anymore.
Leanne ElliottYeah. That makes me sad.
Al ElliottYeah. It makes me sad. But I can also 100% see it. Yeah. Because like, why? For an extra little pay bump and then you're gonna get all this bullshit you have to deal with and then you've got AI going, And middle managers are always the first to go. And then you've got AI replacing middle— oh man, it's tough out there. Take care, kids.
Leanne ElliottIt is tough out there. The thing I'd say on that is that if we look at the kind of the reports that are showing the skills that are going to be the most important in an AI world, it's all those very human skills in terms of your ability to listen, your ability to connect, your ability to empathise, to coach. All these things are going to get even more important. Even more important. So don't snooze on that, Gen Z. We need to be developing those skills, but that doesn't necessarily need to be developing them in a management position, of course. I think as well, for any business owners or founders listening, if you're starting to see this kind of confidence crisis, or you're starting to feel this confidence crisis, I think it's just understanding how comfortable you are with change and what your relationship with change is, particularly if you are a person that always likes to be in control, who likes to predict what's coming, is maybe very data orientated. Your relationship with this uncertainty is going to be really, really important. So as you said, definitely tune into that upcoming episode with Rob on how you can capitalize on this chaos. And in terms of early workers, good for you. I'm loving that you are feeling more confident. I'm loving that you're starting to see, just see the value in your adaptability and your flexibility. But I said, don't snooze on those core skills when it comes to actually how you engage with and influence people. They are going to be the things that, that will separate you from the rest. Um, but a really good article, I thought. And, um, and I really like Susan. Can I just read you this little bit of her message?
Al ElliottWell, if I said no, would you still do it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, I would. So this is what I think me and Susan are gonna vibe together. Um, she said to me, I find Some generational topics are biased in their presentation. We try to look at things from several vantage points. Brilliant. Lovely. It's not just villainising Gen Z or, or any generation. So I love that. I will leave a link to the article in the show notes. It's called Why Entry-Level Workers Are More Hopeful Than Their Bosses Right Now by Susan Roman in Fast Company. Lovely. Thank you, Susan.
Al ElliottBeautiful. If you've seen something you want Leanne and I to talk about— let's be honest, you want Leanne to talk about, not me. Then, uh, head over to show notes. There's email in there. You can get in touch, or you can find Leanne on LinkedIn. She is fairly active on LinkedIn.
Leanne ElliottFairly.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah. Big, big deal. Big deal. Okay, so we're gonna go to a very, very short break. After this break, we've got Truth or Lie. This is where we, or basically I ask Leanne a question, is this a truth or is this a lie? And Leanne basically psychologises for about 15 minutes and tells us whether it is a truth or lie. And after that, our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Don't go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of No Bullshit. UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Okay, welcome back. And we're going to start off with a joke about DEI.
Leanne ElliottEveryone hold their breath.
Al ElliottThere we go. What's the RuPaul thing?
Leanne ElliottI can't wait to see how this turns out.
Al ElliottSo this is on Dad Jokes, a subreddit on Reddit, which I think is Kind of funny because I'm not a dad, but I'm definitely of that age. So it says, I asked my son what he learned at school today. He said, gay men like Sony, lesbians favor Yamaha, and transgender people prefer Bose. Kneeling down, I put my hand on his shoulder and replied, son, those are just stereotypes. Silence.
Leanne ElliottWah, wah, wah.
Al ElliottOkay, so if you wanna hear more material than that, then come to my open mic night, which will be nobody coming there. So it's time for our truth, Truth or Lie, which is, as you know, this is our weekly myth-busting segment where we take a popular psychological claim and ask, is it true or is it a lie? So far we've learned that left-brain creativity isn't really a thing. Maslow did not draw a triangle. No, she didn't. Was it Elaine who was, uh, who was it yesterday?
Leanne ElliottEnya shooketh.
Al ElliottYes, Dr. Enya Doyle. She just, she couldn't get her head around it. Um, and she could, it's obviously a joke. Um, and also we learned the vibe does attract your tribe. We also learned whether you can tell whether someone's lying by their Facial expressions. Uh, no, no, that was a lie. This week we've got quite a big one. So I've heard about this in business books. There's things in productivity circles, LinkedIn motivational posts. They all say high achievers sleep less. But my question, Leanne, is, is this true? Can you really survive on just 4 hours of sleep a night?
Leanne ElliottI want to get into this one properly. I've done so much research on this and really dug around to find out exactly what is occurring because it has been Glamourised for years, hasn't it?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottWe see so many names get thrown around. Margaret Thatcher, Elon Musk, Jack Dorsey, even Martha Stewart claims that she only needs 4 hours a night to run her very successful business. She did go to jail though, so that was—
Al ElliottShe also did do a really great advert for lighters with Snoop Dogg.
Leanne ElliottShe did.
Al ElliottWhich was very funny.
Leanne ElliottHer and Snoop are just someone else, aren't they?
Al ElliottThey're apparently quite good mates.
Leanne ElliottYeah, they're proper good mates.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThere's a documentary about Martha Stewart on Netflix. It's really good, actually. Really good. Her whole comeback thing was basically she roasted Justin Bieber by making fun of the fact that she went to jail.
Al ElliottOh, when he didn't?
Leanne ElliottNo. Well, at that point, the thought was he might.
Al ElliottOh, I see.
Leanne ElliottSo that's why they brought her in to kind of try and snap him out of it with humor. Anyway.
Al ElliottAnyway, the point is Martha Stewart. Why are you going on about Martha Stewart? We wanna talk about people who sleep for 4 hours a night.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it sounds impressive, doesn't it? It sounds very disciplined. It sounds like the secret to success. squeezing extra life out of the day. Let's look at the science behind it. Let's look at the part people tend to skip. I'm going to start with the case for against, Al. I know I normally start for. I'm going to start with against because this is actually where the majority of the research and evidence sits.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottThe fact is most humans cannot function on 4 hours sleep per night.
Al ElliottFair.
Leanne ElliottThey just can't. Long sleep studies consistently show that short sleep harms almost every important function we have as humans. So a huge body of sleep research has shown this pattern again and again and again. One of the clearest is a health study from Norway with more than 8,000 adults aged 40 to 45. It found that people who slept less than 6 hours a night had higher rates of poor concentration, slower reaction times, memory problems, irritability, higher levels of daytime sleepiness, more sickness absence, greater risk of long-term health problems. And these weren't tiny effects. Across the dataset, the people sleeping under 6 hours showed measurable drops in mental performance, mood control, and overall health. Another example comes from a controlled sleep restriction experiment— torture, basically. In the paper Sleep Duration, Sleep Need, and Sleep Hazards from Oxford academics— so some quality research here— participants were assigned 4 different sleep doses, 4 hours, 6 hours, or normal sleep. And the researchers tracked cognitive performance during waking hours using reaction time tests, memory tasks, attention activities, that type of thing. Those on 4 hours sleep a night showed major declines in alertness, repeated microsleeps— that's where moments where the brain just briefly shuts down— difficulty regulating emotion, slower decision-making, And a growing impairment each day the restriction continued.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So the other interesting finding on, um, in terms of the 4-hour condition, what participants said is they felt that they were coping after a few days, but their performance continued to decline. So it shows us something really important that we're actually really bad at judging how cognitively impaired we are on a lack of sleep.
Al ElliottFair.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I mean, it's also survival because there's gonna be parents listening to this going, well, yeah, because if I did realise, I'd probably not get outta bed ever. So, there is a survival aspect to this as well. But in terms of the impact of restricting our sleep, huge issues, both mentally and physiologically. Another big thing in the sleep research is that chronic short sleep is linked to serious long-term health risks.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottPhysiological evidence in terms of sleep deprivation is strong.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottReally strong. A review from the British Psychological Society looked at lots of different studies and found that regularly sleeping under 6 hours raises the risk of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, weight gain, weakened immunity, and higher all-cause mortality.
Al ElliottWow. That's a catch-all you don't wanna be part of. It really is. All-cause mortality. So basically you sleep, you don't sleep much, you sleep longer. When you put— I was gonna get really dark, but then I'm not gonna.
Leanne ElliottYeah, you'll sleep long eventually. Your body will find a way to sleep.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly.
Al ElliottYou're storing it all up.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Honestly, the list just kept going. Blood pressure changes, inflammation markers, hormonal disruption. They all rise under chronic short sleep, and none of the effects were subtle. So in terms of successful people claiming 4 hours is fine, well, yes, but they may actually not be sleeping for 4 hours. We could have some porky pies. I believe Donald Trump famously only sleeps 4 hours a night, and I'm not saying he's an the most reliable in terms of being truthful, but I am saying there are sometimes some question marks around his stories.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottBleach. So yeah, sleep researchers have basically pointed out that public figures could well nap during the day, sleep more at weekends, or simply report on, underreport on how long they sleep.
Al ElliottLie.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And actually there is, you can always, and this is what we talked about last week, wasn't it? In terms of deception detection.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt's finding the inconsistencies in somebody's story. So Elon Musk has publicly claimed 4 to 5 hours, But then in later interviews said he often didn't sleep 6+. Margaret Thatcher reportedly only slept 4 hours, but also took afternoon naps and regularly slept on flights. And I think it was Jack Dorsey, it was like he said he only needed 6 hours, 5 or 5 hours sleep per night to allow him to spend 10 hours on each of his companies. It's like, dude, that's 25 hours.
Al ElliottTo be fair, Jack Dorsey, I think he's the guy, co-founder of Twitter, also Square.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottHe is actually a bit of a genius and also quite a strange guy for someone who's so wealthy, because I think he also created Vine, which is now— yeah, he's now relaunched as Devine.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottQuestion why.
Leanne ElliottWell, maybe the secret success is finding an extra hour in the day, Al.
Al ElliottThat's what— it's not fair. He gets the extra hour. That's why he's a billionaire.
Leanne ElliottHe's in a different time dimension. Add that up. That's a lot of hours over the year.
Al ElliottI love it. Okay.
Leanne ElliottSo that's against. It's seeming unlikely at this point.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottI'm not convinced.
Al ElliottI think A load of rubbish.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Until this one research comes in and it's really interesting. I'd never heard about it before, which makes me wonder actually. I think it's still maybe emerging. There has been some reports in major media about it. And a recent study has looked into it again. But basically what we're finding is a tiny number of people really can function on 4 hours sleep a night.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo extreme rare genetic mutations are responsible for some people genuinely being able to sleep shorter. So they're called natural short sleepers. So the most famous gene that enables this gene mutation is called DEC2, first identified in a 2009 study. Basically, people with this mutation naturally slept around 4.5 hours, yet showed no signs of impairment on cognitive tests.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottMore recent work into this has expanded the area. 2025 study by Chen et al. looked at the SIK3N783Y mutation.
Al ElliottOh, I've heard of that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So families with this mutation consistently slept about 4 to 6 hours. They did not show the typical signs of sleep deprivation, but importantly, this mutation is extremely rare in the population. We're thinking at most 1%. So most people who think they're functioning on 4 hours, Either have this gene, they're in that 1%, or they don't and they're really not. What's so cool about this gene mutation is that natural short sleepers do feel fully rested.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo that's a clear distinction with people with these mutations. They woke up spontaneously. This isn't just setting an alarm for 4 hours. They felt mentally clear. They showed no cognitive decline under testing. And they maintained stable mood and health markers consistently on 4 hours sleep. There was actually as well an example in this of a woman who's in her 80s who's always slept 3 to 4 hours a night and is thriving.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottWho has this genetic mutation. Wow. It's like science fiction kind of stuff, isn't it? So it's one of those where, is it a truth or is it a lie? It's true. It's true, a tiny number of people that have these genetic mutations can mean that they can function at a high level with very little sleep. That is true. And the evidence for these natural short sleepers is pretty solid. It's emerging, so we still need a lot more, but it's pretty solid, especially because we have some data fresh out in 2025. But it does also really need to be emphasised that they are biologically rare.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottFor everybody else, which is basically 99% of the population, regularly sleeping 4 hours does exactly what decades of research says it will. It will weaken memory, it will slow thinking, it'll mean poor emotional control, it'll mean more mistakes, more accidents, higher risk of illness, faster burnout. And the fact that you might feel fine for a few days is also a complete illusion created by your brain to just get through and enter this survival mode. So in terms of, yes, some people are wired to thrive on very little sleep, but these are because of genetic mutations. It's not a model that the rest of us can train ourselves into. We can't suddenly decide we're only going to sleep 4 hours because that's what's going to make us uber successful. It's not.
Al ElliottI'd be interested. So I don't know whether there's any study or a study would be possible on this to find out if there is a higher percentage of successful people who have this. Now, what was the— was it MECC7 or something?
Leanne ElliottYeah, there's a couple of different genes that have been linked to these natural shorter sleepers. So I think that would be the interesting thing, wouldn't it, to look at people like Jack Dorsey, Elon Musk, and Donald Trump that profess to be able to sleep and actually include people like that in these studies to see if they do. And I guess that's where the where the science and the research will need to expand into is what are the general life outcomes of the people who have this mutation and is it linked to more success in the workplace? Yeah.
Al ElliottInteresting. Okay. Thank you very much. That was a good one. I really, really liked that one. Yeah. This is sounding more and more professional by the week.
Leanne ElliottOh, thank you.
Al ElliottOkay. So we're on to the world-famous workplace surgery where I ask your questions to Leanne. That's not right. The world-famous weekly workplace surgery where you put your questions. You know what I'm saying?
Leanne ElliottIs this surgery? There's questions, I'm gonna answer them.
Al ElliottYes, come on. What else do you want? This is an IKEA section. You can put it, put it together yourself. Question number 1, am I the asshole? I love this. There's a, it's a hashtag, uh, #AmIA, isn't it? Am I the asshole? Am I the asshole? So this person says, am I the asshole for calling out my micromanaging colleague? This one's a little bit of a long letter, so I'm gonna read it all out. Long letter, it's an email. I work in a cafe with no real management. We're all technically on the same level, even though some people have been there longer. One of them is great at the job, but acts like a boss. He constantly tells people what to do, micromanages when it's busy, and once told me to slow the fuck down when I was steaming milk. I took the feedback, but the way he talks to people can be harsh. I've been through a tough year, abusive relationship, mental health struggles, and probably neurodivergent, but I've worked hard to improve. I've learned more than some of the long timers and keep my station spotless. Still, it feels like I'm under constant scrutiny from him while his mates get away with anything. Then I overhear him mocking a neurodivergent colleague, saying she's not great at her job. It hit a nerve. I realized he's probably saying the same stuff about me, so I told him. I said he doesn't trust people, that he micromanages, and if he wants things done a certain way, he should put systems in place. At first he listened, but then he basically told me I wasn't smart enough to be trusted anyway. I pushed back firmly but respectfully. Good for you being respectful at this point. And now I'm worried I've stirred up drama. So tell me straight, am I the asshole for confronting him? Or is it fair to call someone out when their behaviour crosses a line? I feel like those are 2 different questions, but Leigh, unpack this for us.
Leanne ElliottI don't think you are the asshole. I think your colleague is.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIs it fair to call out someone when behaviour crosses the line? Yes. But how you call out that behaviour is gonna be very important. It's gonna be the difference between respectfully providing feedback and stirring up drama. It's also difficult when you have somebody who is voluntarily taking on this role as manager without it being an official role. I'm guessing the owner of the cafe isn't around very often, so there's, there's some kind of structural process things here as well that, that are causing some difficulties. So I think what I'd say in terms of confrontation— Dr. Hayley Lewis talks about this quite a bit in her work. If you're not aware of Dr. Hayley Lewis, We've got an episode from her. She's fabulous. She's also known as a sketchnote queen on LinkedIn. So, she creates basically sketchnotes, little pictures from very difficult psychological research or ways of doing things. And she has one on the difference between confronting versus confrontation. So, confronting is typically underpinned by a genuine desire to help and improve.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAre you confronting this person because they're irritating you, or are you confronting them to say, this isn't, this isn't as helpful as it could be, this type of behaviour? I'm telling you this so we can all improve together. Confrontation is typically underpinned by anger or anxiety. So basically wanting to just tell them what you think.
Al ElliottFair enough. Yeah, yeah, makes sense.
Leanne ElliottAnother way confronting is different from confrontation. Confronting is direct, it's clear feedback, it's underpinned with examples.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo when you told me to slow the eff down when I was steaming that milk, that felt a little bit unhelpful. It felt a little bit aggressive. Was it that I was in danger at that point? Was I at risk of burning myself? Is it bad for the machinery? What was it in that moment that required me to slow down? Help me understand.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottConfrontation is basically to get over to the other person that you wanna put them in their place.
Al ElliottSure.
Leanne ElliottAnd you wanna be the one that was right. And confrontation is definitely not the desired state. Um, so other things, it's too little or too much evidence used. Tends to be reactive rather than thoughtful. Um, focus is on ourselves, uh, rather than— and getting things off our chest. Um, it's all the stuff that isn't very helpful, whereas confronting the behavior that you want to engage in, the person who wrote this letter, is that desire to help the other person learn and find a way forward. Understanding that a defensive reaction is normal. So as you said, you kind of respectively push back again. Um, But also just that sense of calmness throughout. If you lose it, it's gonna tip them further into that confrontation mode. So I'm— by the sounds of it, there are some eleph— elements of, of you confronting this person that were very much in the positive confronting way of doing things. It does sound as well though, because there's so much emotion and it is personal, there's also a chance that perhaps you've tipped into some of these confrontation elements.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd that might be the difference of when you said initially this person listened. And then they started not to. That could be the point where you yourself, in giving this feedback, have slipped from confronting to confrontation. Yeah, I'll leave a link to Hayley's LinkedIn post on that. Have a look, follow her as well. She has so many little lovely things like this that are very digestible through her sketchnotes.
Al ElliottOkay, so on to question number 2. Do I need to offer occupational health as a small UK employer? So this person says, I've just taken on my first employee. I'm a small business in the UK. I want to try and work out what my actual responsibilities are when it comes to occupational health. Is this something I have to provide? And if so, does it actually— what does it involve in practice? So this person says, I've heard things like workplace assessments, annual health checks, but I never had that as an employee. So I'm not even sure how common it really is. So what is the right approach here? We've got some people who work remotely and part-time. And what are the risks? Oh, this is a great bit. And what are the risks if I don't set up something formally? I'd really want to know the answer to this.
Leanne ElliottYou read that like there wasn't many great bits. until you got to the end. Oh, this is a good bit. Like, oh yeah, they've got some of this and they do that and they put it in this.
Al ElliottAnd the truth is, but I think most founders and entrepreneurs, they get excited about like, ooh, you know, and then when you, when you've got to follow the rules, you're like, no, I don't want to follow the rules. So sorry about that if I read that in a non— it's all very exciting to me.
Leanne ElliottDo you need to offer occupational health as a small UK employer? Well, I am not the best person to answer this question. I understand why we get questions about occupational health, because I'm an occupational psychologist. It's a very nuanced field, and it's not— occupational health is not my area of expertise, but it is certainly something that I support when working in partnership with occupational health practitioners. So, this sounds like a job for Harry Kramer, friend of the show and CEO at Smart Clinic, which is a specialist occupational health provider. Harry, over to you.
Al ElliottI'm sorry, but the answer here is that It depends. If you have roles that involve regular exposure to specific hazards, things like noise or vibrating machinery or fumes or dust particles in the air, then yes, you do need to. You need to do regular testing. This is an occupational health service called health surveillance, and it usually involves your employees being seen roughly about once a year, and they'll have a series of tests done. Your occupational health provider will advise you more on whether you need that or not.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottIf the job role doesn't involve any of these things, then there is no common law in the UK that mandates the use of occupational health. Although, interestingly, this is different in certain other countries like Australia and Netherlands. However, in terms of case law, so not common law, but case law, it is a little bit different. Case law is much more difficult to work out because it usually comes from employment tribunals, which by definition have already happened. Case law is Quite clear, and it is quite comprehensive. And it explains generally that employers do have a duty of care towards their employees, and employers should be seeking independent clinical advice on any matters where an employee's ability to work normally could be impaired by a health concern. It could be that their health concern is resulting in, for example, some, uh, oh, let me think, like some unusual behaviours at work, or underperformance, or high levels of absence, or just a general decline in their, in their wellbeing.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIn any event, it's always prudent to seek occupational health advice before deciding on next steps. It's the most fair thing to do for the employee, and it means that you as an employer are receiving expert advice from an independent clinical professional like a doctor or a nurse before you're deciding on next steps.
Leanne ElliottAnother practitioner that says it depends, because it does, Al. It does.
Al ElliottWell, what do we pay you lot for? We want answers, goddammit.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think, do you know what, I think what I'd add to Hari's excellent answer there is that it's kind of maybe flipping the question, do I need to offer occupational health, to do I want to offer occupational health? Do I want to have somebody on standby, a provider that can support me in knowing what I need to do legally as and when these scenarios come up so I don't get into a sticky tribunal situation that Hari was talking about? Is it a case that this is just something I want to provide for my employees so that if something happens, they've got the support they need to be able to get back to work as quickly and as healthily as possible? It comes down to ethical, responsible business ownership, and particularly from a talent perspective, the Gen Z are all over this in terms of responsible businesses. So, do you need to offer it? It depends. Should you offer it? Maybe, for a variety, a variety of reasons. Yeah. Any thoughts, Al?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottNo? Okay.
Al ElliottI agree. No, I think, to be honest, it's like one of those things of going, okay, if it's something which is gonna break the bank and it's gonna risk your profitability, which I don't think it is, 'cause I don't think it's particularly expensive, but if it was something like that, then maybe you go, all right, well, that's a bit further down the road. But if it's relatively inexpensive, then it's just another competitive edge over your competitors who don't offer it.
Leanne ElliottTo give you an idea, Harry's or SmartClinic's essential package, which basically includes the occupational health assessments and referrals. Also includes, I think, yeah, gives your staff access to 24-hour employee assistance programme. It's £20 per employee per year.
Al ElliottYeah, definitely go and check out someone, either Harry or someone like Harry. It sounds like very inexpensive. Sounds like it's a no-brainer to me. Okay, Le, should we go into question number 2?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottNo, question number 3. Harry, you've put me off. I've made it to the top, so why do I feel so flat? I'm in a senior leadership role, something I've worked towards 4 years on paper, I've made it, but lately I feel completely disconnected. The drive, the hunger, the spark that got me here is just not showing up anymore. It's not burnout exactly because I'm not overwhelmed or exhausted. I'm just meh, unmotivated, and that's not at all like me. It's unsettling to feel this way, especially when others are looking to me for direction. Are there ways I can boost my energy? Do I need to make a much bigger change? I'd be interested. This is probably a bit too much information, but I'd be interested to know what What age and how long they've been in the, um, in the particular job or the role.
Leanne ElliottWhat are your thoughts on that?
Al ElliottI think that if someone's been, say, let's say, I mean, argument's there. Let's say they are early 40s and they've worked their way up from the bottom, um, into a senior leadership role and they've been in it for about 18 months to 2 years, then I'm not a psychologist, but I can 100% see why they get bored because they've, they've All of the rest of their time at work has been moving towards this. And sometimes the worst thing that can happen to you is you can actually hit your goals and you're like, oh, and potentially there's nothing, nothing above this. This could be like, okay, this is where you stop. And so I can see where you might have a bit of, would psychologists call it moral burnout? No, that's not right, is it?
Leanne ElliottNo, moral burnout is more when you're in an organization that whose values misalign with your own. This is just so many, so many different things impacting this. And you're absolutely right, Al, you're absolutely right in terms of having that, that motivation and then hitting a point where there's nothing else to strive for. Do you remember we talked about Maslow and we talked about, um, deficit drivers and growth drivers?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo deficit drivers are really motivational. I want that promotion. I don't have that current level of salary. But once you get it, It's just motivation gets switched off because it's been achieved. Growth drivers are actually the things that keep us going because they're the things that we can continually work towards. And they're often things that are a bit more, a bit more existential in a way, if that's the right word to use. But in things of like, like what contribution do you want to have on the world? What impact do you want to have on your community? How do you want to raise your family? How do you want to continue to be excellent at your job? How do you develop as a leader to be the best of the best? Is it that you, get huge motivation from reading John Amici's new book on management and what great leadership looks like, and then trying to apply that into your work. It's those things that are going to keep us motivated in a way that is much more sustainable and isn't attached to external stuff, which once is achieved, it's meh. So, I think that's one thing is thinking about what actually is it that your growth drivers? What is it that you still get excited about? And that is going to help you answer, do you need to make a much bigger change? It could be that you're happy in the company that you're in, you've got a great team, you can find enough to keep you engaged, but you're going to need to look outside of that to kind of get your kicks, whether that's a side hustle, whether that's volunteering, whether it's getting involved with your community. Um, it could be a whole host of things. It could be— There's a dude It could be like the guy that you shared on the other week who basically delegated everything else and then—
Al ElliottDid no work.
Leanne ElliottYeah, spent loads of time with his friends and family and still got promoted.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt could be, look at kind of restructuring how you can delegate some of these things to spend more time on innovation, on product development, whatever it is that your job is, or indeed these activities outside of work. I always recommend a model called VITALS, which is kind of a self-coaching exercise to help you think about what these growth drivers could be. VITALS stands for your values, your interests, your Your around-the-clock, the time of day that you're most effective, your life goals, and your strengths, and reflecting on those. My bet would be that right now, very few, if any, of your vitals are being met, and that's why you're starting to feel just disconnected. You've not got that hunger, you've not got that spark. What it will help you do though is identify the areas that will give you that hunger, that will give you that spark, that will lean more into those growth drivers, and they're the things you need to focus on.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd only you, having done the exercise, can answer. Are there things you can boost your— do to boost your energy, or do you need a much bigger change?
Al ElliottExcellent. Excellent. By the way, we have a programme which we're not— we're keeping very quiet. But if you're a founder and you feel like that and you want that sort of challenge, then get in touch because we've got something which I think is right up your street. Check the show notes. Okay, Leanne, anything else to add before we let these good people go?
Leanne ElliottNo, just the usual, please. If you see anything you'd like us to talk about in the news roundup, do send it over. Likewise, if you have any If you're an MSc or a PhD student and you want to talk about it on the show, let us know. If you have a question, send it in to thesurgery@truthliesandwork.com.
Al ElliottIf you want to meet a leader, someone who spent their entire life just being better and better, so this is like relative to the last question number 3, then you definitely want to go back to last Thursday's episode, which is with the amazing Gary Ridge from WD-40, led the company for 25, 30 years. Then went past retirement age, decided he was not going to give up, and then basically reinvented. And now he does— he does what he did for WD-40 but for other companies. Got a coaching company. Such a great story. He's such a cool, cool guy. The first person who has publicly thanked us for doing a podcast like this because he says he wants to get the word out. So yeah, go back to that last episode, 251, with the amazing Gary Ridge. And then we're back next Tuesday with our Truth, Lies, and Work. We will see you then. See you next week.
Leanne ElliottSee you soon. Bye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.