Episode 286 · 24 March 2026 · 52:41
The 'Cockroaches of HR', interview hacks and return-to-office Dilemmas. PLUS! Should you hire for culture fit?
The 'Cockroaches of HR', interview hacks and return-to-office Dilemmas. PLUS! Should you hire for culture fit?
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The $75 lunch that beats any exit interview
news roundup#exit interview#employee feedback#lunch
HowToJob & Interviewly: AI interview coaching
news roundup#ai#interview coaching#job search#technology
The power of intergenerational teams
news roundup#intergenerational teams#age diversity#older workers#workplace
Truth or Lie: Should you hire for culture fit?
truth or lie#culture fit#hiring#recruitment
Workplace Surgery: Enforcing an RTO mandate you don't believe in
workplace surgery#return-to-office#rto#mandate#management
Workplace Surgery: Complicity when your employer treats others poorly
workplace surgery#workplace ethics#complicity#employee treatment
Workplace Surgery: Scaling culture as the team grows
workplace surgery#scaling culture#company culture#growth
Show notes
The 'Cockroaches of HR', Interview Hacks & Return-to-Office Dilemmas — Plus! Should You Hire for Culture Fit?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why one headhunter calls exit interviews the "cockroaches of the employment world," explore a new AI tool that helps you nail your next interview, and dig into the data on whether hiring for "culture fit" actually predicts success. Plus, in Truth or Lie: should you really be hiring for culture fit?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. The $75 lunch that beats any exit interview Headhunter Nick Corcodilos calls exit interviews the "cockroaches" of the employment world — they serve little purpose, yet they never die. Because departing employees often fear burning bridges, they give safe, generic answers. The alternative? Wait six months after an employee leaves and invite them to a casual lunch. Time changes the dynamic: former employees are more objective and willing to provide grounded feedback for the price of a meal. Source →
2. Stop guessing, start coaching: HowToJob & Interviewly Al explores HowToJob, an all-in-one platform built by HR veteran Milo Sevelj to help candidates navigate a brutal job market. Its standout feature, Interviewly, generates role-specific interview questions and provides structured feedback on your recorded answers. It moves beyond practicing in a mirror by giving candidates real-time data on what landed and what didn't. Connect with Milo Sevelj: linkedin.com/in/milosevelj
3. The power of intergenerational teams New research suggests age diversity isn't just something to "manage" — it's a competitive advantage. The findings: older workers feel more employable and capable when they regularly interact and share knowledge with younger colleagues. The key? It's not just about sitting next to each other; it's about a two-way flow of experience and new skills. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: "You Should Hire for Culture Fit"
Around 80% of employers prioritize "culture fit," but Leanne digs into the evidence to see if it actually predicts success.
The Truth: Fit does predict job satisfaction (19%) and organizational commitment (26%).
The Lie: It is one of the weakest predictors of actual job performance, accounting for less than 1% of the variance — compared to around 34% for structured interviews and 42% for cognitive ability tests.
The Verdict: "Culture fit" is often a subjective "airport test" that lets bias in the back door. Instead, look for "Culture Add."
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- The Policy Trap: How do you enforce a 5-day return-to-office mandate when you don't believe in it yourself?
- The Complicity Crisis: If your employer treats you well but treats others poorly, are you complicit by staying?
- Scaling Culture: How do you move from "being the culture" to building a culture that works without you as the team grows?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottAre exit interviews actually useless? One headhunter is calling them the cockroaches of the employment world.
Al ElliottStrong.
Leanne ElliottSo if you want to know why people really left, when should you be asking them?
Al ElliottYeah, and we all know the job market is tough right now, but what if there was an app that you were not only able to practice your interview technique but also got real-time feedback on how you could do better? Oh, and what if it was filled with videos all designed to help you land your dream job? Well, I think I might have found it. More shortly.
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, should you hire for culture fit? Around 80% of employers say it's a top priority when choosing candidates. Do they actually predict whether someone will be good at the job? I've read the research and I've got a verdict.
Al ElliottAnd of course, in the Workplace Surgery, we've got 3 more questions. One of them is about enforcing a policy you don't believe in. Even when you're caught in the middle of it. One listener is struggling with a 5-day return-to-office mandate and knows their team will too.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask you the questions you might be afraid to.
Leanne ElliottAnd my name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, and I'm here to answer them. And together we help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottRight back after a very quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation. into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello. Hello. Welcome back. Welcome back, Lee. Has it been a good week? What can we say?
Leanne ElliottIt's only Tuesday and it's already been a really bad week.
Al ElliottYeah, well, it will not— we'll not get too much into it because Yeah, there's the— I think our friends will know, and I know Jeremy will know because I told him I had to move his call today. But yes, so in short, in a few weeks' time, we might be coming to you from a different country. Who knows? Who knows? Here we go again. Anyway.
Leanne ElliottHere I go again on my own.
Al ElliottI don't know the second line to that. If I did, I'd try and do something clever around residency. But let's just say that if you do want to live in a particular Balkan country, then it's never simple. It's never simple.
Leanne ElliottNo, sir.
Al ElliottWhat is simple though is you, Leanne. You're a very simple—
Leanne ElliottI'm a very simple person with very simple needs.
Al ElliottWell, I think one of your needs is to learn what's going on in the world of work. Is that the weakest, worst segue I've ever done?
Leanne ElliottPerhaps. No, I like it.
Al ElliottYeah, you like it?
Leanne ElliottI like it. I think we can do that through the Newsroundup, Al. So why don't you do me a favour and cue that jingle?
Al ElliottYes. All right, I'll press that button. Okay, Leanne, by the way, I told you, haven't I? I found a new, a new thing on my disco box on my RODECaster.
Leanne ElliottYeah, have you changed the music for the Newsroundup?
Al ElliottNo, no, but it's At some point, listener, in the next few weeks, I'm going to surprise you with a cool new button that is a cool new thing. Leanne, what have you seen this week, my love?
Leanne ElliottAre exit interviews the cockroaches of the employment world?
Al ElliottI mean, that's pretty strong.
Leanne ElliottIt is pretty strong. It is. This was— yeah, this, this guy, a headhunter called Nicholas— oh man, I should have practiced this— Nicholas Kokkodilos.
Al ElliottCan I have a guess at his, uh, where he— where his name's from?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI would guess he's Greek.
Leanne ElliottOh, maybe. Yeah, Kokodilos. Yeah, maybe, maybe. Well, if this was in Inc., I think— I didn't actually write that down, I will leave a link, but I think it was in Inc. And yeah, Nick was saying that he thinks exit interviews and the whole idea of them are the cockroaches of the employment world. He reckons nobody really knows why they exist. No one quite justify them, and yet they never really seem to go away. I mean, in theory, exit interviews should give companies useful data, shouldn't they? It makes sense why you're— so this is what is an exit interview.
Al ElliottI was just about to say, just in case someone's like, exit interview, what does it mean?
Leanne ElliottSo exit interview is when an employee has resigned from the company, and on their last day or a few days before they leave, you sit them down and basically try and find out why, try and get some feedback in terms of the organisation. So yeah, basically why they're leaving, maybe what's broken, what needs, what needs fixing. And, and I think that telling the truth in a situation like that is quite difficult, isn't it? Because at that moment, those employees still need references. They don't want to burn any bridges. So instead of kind of going, oh, my manager is an absolute nightmare, actually, they're the reason I'm leaving, you know, they're probably just more likely to give safer generic answers. I do run exit interviews with employees of my clients who, who leave on the occasion they do, because my clients enjoy very high levels of, of retention. And even as a third party speaking to them, you know, you really need to dig around to find, find out something useful. And even then, say you did find a name, say you did find out, what are you going to do with that? Because you need to hold confidentiality for that person. So if you're then going to the person that is the reason they're leaving, then that breaks it. So it's all just a bit complicated anyway. So Nick had an idea, right? Instead of asking them on their way out the organisation, doing that exit interview then, what if you reach out to them directly 6 months later and ask them to go for lunch?
Al ElliottOh, that's an idea.
Leanne ElliottSo it's not a formal interview, it's more of a conversation 6 months on. His thought is the time will change dynamic. Thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, I totally agree. Because also, and the other thing I suppose is that in an exit interview, if it's like 3 or 4 days before you leave, you're already in the next job and you don't really want to be thinking about this job because you've already like mentally moved on. So asking someone to go, okay, how can we make it better? If it's, if it's one of those situations where someone is leaving because they hate a manager or they just don't like the organisation, what, like you said, you're not going to get honest answers. And even if you did, they're not going to be particularly helpful because this one person has decided This is not for them. The data doesn't seem, you know, it's not a longitudinal study. It's not, it's not got lots and lots of data points. It's got one person's opinion who's probably a little bit narked off with you.
Leanne ElliottYeah, as you say, they've already, they've already psychologically moved on, haven't they? So what's in it for them to really sit down and give you brutal feedback in that moment? But 6 months later, maybe, maybe they will. And this is what, what Nick's theory is. He reckons that a relaxed conversation over lunch will produce very different answers to formal meeting in an HR room, and the advice is to treat it as a genuine conversation. He also thinks the second benefit is that by that stage, the former employee has seen another organisation so they can compare. So sometimes they'll confirm your issues, sometimes they'll realise that things weren't actually as bad as they thought. So it kind of gives the feedback some more context.
Al ElliottThat makes sense.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it's quite— I think it's a good idea. I have questions around how You can reach out to somebody who's no longer in your organisation. I think, well, maybe whether you ask permission of that beforehand, if that is gonna be your policy.
Al ElliottI don't see that being a problem. I mean, there's a tiny little platform, it's in its infancy, it's called LinkedIn.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I know, but it's like, I think you're gonna have much more chance of somebody participating in that if you ask them as they left, look, would you mind if we got in touch in 6 months' time and see what— Ask you some questions about your experience. Or maybe just like grab a hot dog.
Al ElliottGrab a hot dog? Where are you, New York City?
Leanne ElliottAre you in suits?
Al ElliottIs this Harvey Specter's left for someone else?
Leanne ElliottMaybe Five Guys or something. I'm all— you can get hot dogs in the UK.
Al ElliottWhat the hell's Five Guys?
Leanne ElliottThe burger place.
Al ElliottWhy is it called Five Guys?
Leanne ElliottOh God, you're so old.
Al ElliottWhat's wrong with McDonald's? Bring back Wimpy. That's what I say. I loved Wimpy. Anyway, uh, yeah, I think just, you could just solve that really simply, I think, just by saying, um, is it okay if we Keep in touch.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWho's gonna say no to that? Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And, uh, do you want me to send your email or should we connect on LinkedIn? Yeah, cool. Okay, that'd be great. By the way, this is our new business. This is what we're gonna do. We are going to be the exit interview guys. We're gonna get in touch with Nick. We'll pay him commission, uh, for, for coming up with the idea. And we just go for lunch every day and the company will pay for our lunch. Yeah. And we just ask, we just, we just do the exit interviews.
Leanne ElliottAnd we'll be like, unload. Who's the, who's the biggest asshole?
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottIn the organisation. Tell us everything.
Al ElliottTell us all.
Leanne ElliottSpill the tea.
Al ElliottOh, and you can make it fun because you can have all the organ— all the managers in the organisation like a Guess Who board. You could say like, does she have curly hair?
Leanne ElliottOh, brilliant.
Al ElliottThat would be quite funny. Guess Who needs to be something to do with the organisation.
Leanne ElliottWork edition.
Al ElliottYeah, you need a work edition of Guess Who.
Leanne ElliottYes, that would be brilliant.
Al ElliottI worked in this one company where everybody looked really strange and it genuinely looked like you, when you looked out, it looked like that, that it was a Guess Who board because it's like people with like big long heads and someone with a big beard down to their knees and stuff. And, you know, and then, then there was moustache and yeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottWho's the dude that looked like an egg?
Al ElliottOh, Bernard. Bernard.
Leanne ElliottThe ginger beard.
Al ElliottNo, Bernard had a, it begins with E. Bernard had a hat. This might have been Eric. Eric looked like an egg, I believe.
Leanne ElliottAnd you always wished, you always hoped that the other person had pulled out a woman.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottBecause like all inequality, there was only like 4 women in Guess Who?
Al ElliottThat's where underrepresentation actually helps. Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, moving on, Lee.
Leanne ElliottLet's. What have you seen, love?
Al ElliottOkay, so I want to talk a little bit about something I teased in the intro. There's a platform called How2Job. The name How2Job— job has now seemed to become like a, like a verb. We job, I job, you job, he jobs, she jobs. Look at me conjugating the word, the fictional verb job. So yeah. Soy, um, what's job in Spanish? I should know that.
Leanne ElliottOh, I'm thinking work.
Al ElliottTrabajo is work.
Leanne ElliottWhat is it?
Al ElliottWell, while Leanne's Googling that, I will tell you. So basically it's called How to Job, and it's been introduced by a guy called Milo Seville. Um, he— I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm saying that name, that surname wrong. Uh, basically he has got 15 years in HR and talent, and he knows exactly what he's doing. He's, he looked at the job market and he was like, it is a bit— this is not, this is not his words. These are my words. It's a bit shit at the moment. And so he said, right, let's just do something really simple. Let's stop guessing what employers actually want and actually help or coach people through the entire process. So he does things like CV overhauls, LinkedIn optimization, personalized outreach strategy. This is what's really interesting. When you, when you log into How to Job, it's like Netflix. It's got like one big video at the front playing and you can unmute it and then you can just scroll through like shelves of other videos and you'll see things like, yeah. Netflix. And he's got loads of techniques. So it'll be, um, I can't remember, he's got the Four Horsemen of something, I think. I can't remember. I should have written this down.
Leanne ElliottOf the Apocalypse?
Al ElliottNo, but it's like Four Horsemen of the Career Eclipse or something. Uh, and basically he's got loads of different cool ways of getting, um, getting a job. So he talks about rather than just applying for a job, you go and find the chief executive officer or the chief operations officer and you make friends with them. You take 'em out for lunch and you, you know, it doesn't really say that, but it's that sort of like really cool things. Uh, there are loads and loads of Brilliant success stories on there as well. One student apparently got 5 offers in just over a month, and another landed a job at the London Stock Exchange. Very, very fancy.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottNow, if it was just that, you'd be like, well, that's pretty cool.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut there's also something called Interviewly. Now, what I don't know is whether that's in, whether that's like an extra payment for it or not.
Leanne ElliottIt's called Interviewly, or it's called Interviewly.
Al ElliottOh, I never thought. It's called Interviewly.
Leanne ElliottInterviewly. Yes.
Al ElliottInterviewly. Um, and basically what it'll do is you, is you open it up and it says, right, what job position are you going for? What, what company are you going for?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd then it will create this sort of simulated job, job, um, application process.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottUm, you can record into it your response. So it'll say, ask you a question, you record your response, you get up to 3 attempts to record your response. You can listen back, choose a favourite one, submit it. You go through, and these questions aren't just like, Tell us about your life. You know, these are genuine questions that will probably be asked in that sort of interview.
Leanne ElliottHow do they know?
Al ElliottHow does he know? How does he know? I don't know, because he's got 15 years and talent and he's a clever— he's a clever fella. So anyway, so the point is, at the end—
Leanne ElliottClever kookaburra.
Al ElliottClever kookaburra.
Leanne ElliottSide note, Al and I had this thing about 3 weeks ago. I think towards the end of the week, we start to run out of things to talk about, so we'll get bit unhinged. We were talking about how, like, what if, like, every— the way you describe somebody had to be bird-related?
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottSo, you pesky little partridge.
Al ElliottOh, you dirty little duck.
Leanne ElliottDirty duck was one of the good ones. What was the other one? Grumpy goose.
Al ElliottGrumpy goose was a great one.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Curious kookaburra. Is that what I just said?
Al ElliottYeah, I think so. We did, we did, we had one for starling, but, or swallow, but that was probably, that's probably a bit, maybe not, maybe, maybe not go for that one. Can I get back to, to the how-to job? Anyway, so you've done your little mock interview and at the end it'll come back and say, right, you answered this pretty well, this wasn't so good, here's some tips for it. Thought really, really cool. Anyway, Leigh, thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYeah, nice. I think anything that helps people get more comfortable talking about themselves and answering questions, I think there's lots of people who, yeah, will read through their notes and maybe even write out an answer to a question, but to actually speak it out loud and feel comfortable with it is It is really useful, useful practice. I think it also sounds as though, as though, yeah, it's very much helping you understand recruitment processes, what they look like, what competencies they might be questioning. Love the use of AI. I'm guessing it uses AI.
Al ElliottI'm guessing.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I'm guessing. What doesn't these days?
Al ElliottExactly.
Leanne ElliottYeah, no, I like the sound of it. I think it sounds very, very cool. I'd like to, I'd like to poke around.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah. So, so Milo, you're a clever little cuckoo. That's what you are.
Leanne ElliottKookaburra.
Al ElliottNo, I prefer cuckoo.
Leanne ElliottCuckoo.
Al ElliottNo, it's indigenous to the UK.
Leanne ElliottCreative cuckoo.
Al ElliottYeah, creative little cuckoo. Uh, yeah, so how-to job, uh, link is in the bio.
Leanne ElliottIs it indigenous to the UK?
Al ElliottCuckoo?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWell, isn't it weird with a cuckoo? They're not really indigenous, even though they are indigenous, because they basically go, well, I'm going to live here now. So a cuckoo will cook, will knock something out of a nest, won't it? So basically a cuckoo is probably more like a digital nomad. of the bird world where it'll go, this is where I'm staying now. Yeah. But a bully digital nomad.
Leanne ElliottOh, we don't, we don't like bullies.
Al ElliottNo. And in fact, to be fair, in history there are, there's quite a lot of, we're not gonna go into it, but there's quite a lot of, of countries we've gone, oh, we, we might just cuckoo our way into the next country. Like in 1939. So maybe we just move away from that subject entirely.
Leanne ElliottNo, we didn't.
Al ElliottWell, we, the UK is worse for cuckooing.
Leanne ElliottNot in, not during the Second World War.
Al ElliottNo, but every other, During the last 2,000— is there not a country? There's probably not a country on earth we've not just rocked up and gone, hey guys, like what you've done here.
Leanne ElliottDo you have a flag?
Al ElliottI like what you've done here, but do you know what would make it even better is if we ran this shit. That's, that's how we're gonna do it. So—
Leanne ElliottPlease, nobody ever take that quote from Al out of context because we would never be able to live in another country other than the UK ever again.
Al ElliottWe wouldn't be able to live in the UK. We're barred.
Leanne ElliottNo, no, no, we wouldn't. No, the UK is a strange place right now. We'd be fine.
Al ElliottAnyway, Lee, what else have you seen?
Leanne ElliottI am wondering, Al, whether older workers are being overlooked.
Al ElliottRight. How about, do you know what would be really funny if you said, I wonder if shorter workers are being overlooked? Okay. Older workers are being overlooked. It's just ageism, pure and simple.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. Yes. At its extreme. Yes. I also think I hear a lot of people talking about, oh, you know, there's soon gonna be 6 generations in. In the workplace, like it's something to manage and not like it's something that could be useful or could be leveraged necessarily. Luckily though, some other psychologists did think that maybe this is a better question to ask if it could be useful. I saw this in the JOOP. The JOOP?
Al ElliottJournal of, um, of, of Organisational Psychology?
Leanne ElliottJournal of Occupational and Organisational Psychology. The JOOP. I'm sure there's a Yeah, there is men's aftershave, isn't it? Anyway, so what they did, they wanted to look at if there was any actual benefit for both parties when older and younger employees worked together.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo to test this, they did 2 experiments. First, they paired up 142 older and younger employees and looked at how they interacted, how much they shared knowledge, and how employable older employees were. older workers felt. Then they followed up with a larger survey of 385 older workers across different industries to see if the same pattern held over time. Very classic methodology, this.
Al ElliottYes, I feel like I'm aware of methodologies after you explain them.
Leanne ElliottIndeed. What they found is that the more contact there were— there was— there were— yeah, there was—
Al Elliottwere—
Leanne Elliottthe more contact there was between generations— honestly, I've had a really bad week.
Al ElliottI think, I think that's the least of your problems, whether it's a was or were.
Leanne ElliottYeah. The more contact there was between generations, the more employable older workers felt. And not just in terms of confidence, but things like saying they felt more relevant, they felt more adaptable, they felt more capable in their role. And it wasn't just about working together, it's what actually happened when people interact. So it's, they need to kind They can't just sit next to each other, do you know what I mean? They need to be having some kind of interaction because you can't just say we're going to have a team with a boomer, an Xer, a millennial, and a Gen Z, and they shall create diversity in its nature.
Al ElliottMm.
Leanne ElliottThey have to actually interact. So you might have to want to encourage some of that interaction at times because that's where it's valuable. Um, apparently the environment matters as well. So the study talked about something called intergenerational climate, which is basically whether your workplace feels open across age groups or whether there is a bit of a divide. So in places where that climate is positive, unsurprisingly, everything works better. People share more, they ask more, they collaborate more. Where it's not, people hold back, and older workers reported stopping asking for help.
Al ElliottOh, that's a problem.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And then younger workers reported knowledge sharing Mm-hmm. And so does the sense for older workers of staying relevant. So if you are leading a multi-generational team, you really want to encourage this mutual collaboration and, and learning, because from an older worker's perspective, what they started to also report in the worst of scenarios, where the kind of intergenerational climate was poor, was that they start to feel very, very isolated. And we already know that loneliness in workplace is already a bit of a, bit of a problem, has been for some while. So yeah, what do you think of that one, Al?
Al ElliottWell, it makes perfect sense. And I think that, you know, there's, if you went back 20 years, then yes, there'd be like, oh, you know, the old farts are in the corner and they're just typing and they're writing out their double entry bookkeeping system. And then the young kids are all on the computers and stuff. I think it has changed massively now. And I think also, do you know what, weirdly, I think TikTok and Instagram has actually helped quite a lot with that because I know that there's a, you know, there's a guy and I'm sure listening, you're gonna know who I'm talking about and saying, ain't no way.
Leanne ElliottI love that guy.
Al ElliottYeah. And he's not 40 anymore. I think he's probably pushing 50. But the fact is that he comes on and his story is, his hook line is, you are telling me that I can do this thing really simply. And I've been at, and I'm 40 years old and I didn't know this. So I think that There's that. There's also a lot more older people who are on TikTok who are just talking about work, talking about anything really, that just younger people are perhaps listening to and going, oh, they actually do know. They're not ancient. They do actually know a little bit of something. There's that woman who, red-haired woman from Cambridge University. I forget her name. You know her, you love her. And I'm not saying she's by any stretch old, but she's—
Leanne ElliottYeah, I don't think she's that old. That old is she?
Al ElliottShe's, but, but she's not like 19 and she gets so many views. And I think what's really cool about that is Hannah Fry. Hannah Fry.
Leanne ElliottOh, she's my age.
Al ElliottThere we go.
Leanne ElliottSo she's a bit, a little bit older. February 1984.
Al ElliottSo she's an ancient geriatric.
Leanne ElliottShe's 42.
Al ElliottYeah. There you go. Um, and I just think that then you've got someone who's maybe 15, 16 going, this is pretty cool. She's pretty cool. So I do think that social media is helping a little bit that way. Uh, but then maybe it's not always. I don't know. Did that make any sense? Was that just like a real old person just going, oh, well, it's all down to social media now?
Leanne ElliottNo, I think you're right. There does seem to be a bit more, a bit more respect and appreciation in pockets of the internet, doesn't there? In others, I think it's also just very divisive. But yeah, I think the point is all of these generations into the workplace, it's less about kind of, I guess the assumption and the narrative we're getting is that it's going to be difficult. Difficult and it's going to be hard. It's like, oh, we're gonna have to manage 6 generations in the workplace. It's like, well, how can we get excited about this? How can we put people together in teams with certain tasks or projects where we're gonna start to see these wonderful things happen? This kind of skill development for the older person and, and knowledge and wisdom from, you know, the younger person getting knowledge and wisdom from an older, an older person. So I'm all for it. I like it. I will leave a Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd obviously you need an organisation where you've got psychological safety, where people can feel like they can ask for, for help. And did we not do an article last week or week before about something about asking for help actually makes, makes a workplace nicer or something? Maybe, maybe I dreamt that. Talking of dreaming things, we've got a very short break. And then after that, we are talking about culture. Now, this is our truth or lie. This is where I'm going to say, Leanne, I've heard this. Is it true? And she's going to tell us whether it's true or not. We're talking about culture fit after the break. We'll see you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. I'm not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. Welcome back. This is Truth or Lie. We're probably about 4 months into this now, aren't we? It's Truth or Lie, maybe even a bit longer.
Leanne ElliottI have no idea.
Al ElliottI'm really enjoying it. I really, really like it. So, and I like it because I basically go, Leanne, Is this true? And then I just go and have a cup of tea. And then you sit there and you like make all your notes and do your research and all that clever stuff. Today's claim, Leanne, is it true? Should you hire for culture fit? Now, to be fair, I know that just anecdotally, that is one of the most common used criteria in hiring. There are so many people I speak to who say, yeah, yeah, they weren't just, just weren't quite a culture fit. Looking at the note you've given me here, It says apparently 80% of employers say it's a top priority when selecting candidates. The idea is really simple. Find someone whose values and ways of working match the organisation and everything else should follow. Lee, though, does the evidence actually support this? Should you hire for culture fit? Is that true or a lie?
Leanne ElliottI sometimes wonder, I drag out the answer. Do you want me to just tell you the verdict now? Just cut to the chase.
Al ElliottDo you know what? Yeah. If you're listening, listener, Leanne's gonna— we're gonna ask Leanne to say it's truth or lie and then go and tell us the reasons why.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottTell us whether you prefer this or you prefer the suspense.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOkay. So, is it true or is it a lie?
Leanne ElliottIt's a lie.
Al ElliottSo, you should not be hiring for culture?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottSo, should we go for— normally you do the case for hiring for culture and then you do against. Is that fair to do?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Al ElliottSo, what's the case for hiring for culture?
Leanne ElliottSo, this is— I think a lot of this stems in where it comes from, right? So, it kind of has its roots in terms of research in the 1980s, late 1980s, and specifically a theory from a psychologist called Jennifer Chapman. And she looked into person-organisation fit and developed this model that was kind of picked up by tech companies like your Apples, your Googles, all that type of thing in the '90s and noughties, and became really popular as a hiring strategy because it was also quite visual, wasn't it, culture at that point? Because they had these big complexes like the Googleplex, whatever it's called. What's it called?
Al ElliottYeah, I think it's called—
Leanne ElliottIs it called the Googleplex?
Al ElliottI think so, yeah. Oh, there you go.
Leanne ElliottSo, it became something that people could see, and when you can see it and somebody cool is doing it and it sounds cool, you want to do it yourself. So, yeah, by the 2010s, some studies have suggested up to 84% of hiring managers have used it as a key factor in selection.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottHuge. So, the idea basically is if you find somebody whose values, personality, and ways of working align with the organisation, then they'll slot in more smoothly, Work better with colleagues, and they'll be more likely to stay. But in practice, it can often come down to something far more subjective. And what has also been kind of reported is, is the airport test when talking about culture fit. Have you heard about this?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottSo basically, would you want to be stuck in an airport with this person? If the answer is yes, then they're a fit. If they don't, then they're not.
Al ElliottOh, so, so this is like, so instead of going, we're hiring for culture, What really is people are doing and going, do I like this person when I spend time with them?
Leanne ElliottExactly.
Al ElliottIf it's a yes, then go, oh, miraculously, they seem to match with our culture. If it's a no, they're like, no, they're an idiot. I don't want to spend any time with them.
Leanne ElliottYeah, people are, people are unfairly associating culture fit with likability.
Al ElliottGot it.
Leanne ElliottAnd usually we like people who are very similar to us.
Al ElliottWhich does not make a good organisation.
Leanne ElliottNo, it does not. But there is actually some genuine evidence that culture fit matters.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottIt's just about How it matters. The strongest evidence comes from a 2005 meta-analysis. What's a meta-analysis, Al?
Al ElliottOh no, you— I knew you were going to ask me this. I think it's when there are multiple— they analyse multiple research projects and put them together as—
Leanne ElliottExactly.
Al ElliottOne mega research.
Leanne ElliottOne mega research sample. Exactly. So this meta-analysis looked at 172 studies that measured 836 relationships between culture fit and an outcome, so like job satisfaction, organisational commitment, performance. What it found was that when employees feel aligned with the organisation's values, they are significantly more satisfied with their jobs, they are more committed to the organisation, and they are less likely to leave. So, in terms of culture fit, it's really important for being happy at work, being committed to my organisation, and not wanting to quit. Yeah. The correlation was fairly chunky. So when we say correlation, that's kind of the strength and direction of relationship between 2 things. So this research looked at organisational fit and job satisfaction and found that it had a correlation of 0.44. Cool fact, if you square root a correlation, it gives you a predicted percentage.
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottI know, maths.
Al ElliottHang on, I have to do— keep talking. I'm gonna square root this.
Leanne ElliottSquare root 0.44.
Al Elliott0.44 square root. Where is it on my calculator? I have to turn it on its side. Oh man, I can't find my— you carry on talking.
Leanne ElliottWhy don't you just do 0.44 times 0.44?
Al ElliottBecause that would be squaring it, not square rooting it.
Leanne ElliottSorry, square it, not square root it. Square it.
Al ElliottOh, square it. Oh, right. Times 0.44. That gives me 0.1936. So is that 19%?
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Oh, so organisational fit accounts for around 19% of what determines how satisfied employees feel at work.
Al ElliottOh, now that's a cool Right, okay, if you've listened this far, listener, you've just got yourself a cool little fact. I love this. I'm gonna be doing this all the time. Yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottDo you want to do another one? The correlation for organisational commitment was 0.51.
Al ElliottSo 0.51 times 0.51, so it's got 20, so it accounts for 26% of—
Leanne ElliottYeah, around 26% of what determines how committed employees feel to the organisation. Yeah, it's kind of cool, isn't it? So culture fit is important for how people think and feel in our business. It absolutely is. It also influences how people potentially will select themselves or put themselves forward for roles.
Al ElliottMm.
Leanne ElliottSo, a 2010 study looked at 256 undergraduate students and evaluated recruitment materials. They had to basically, 2 hypothetical companies, what do we think of this company? One was with a competitive, high-salary culture. One was with a supportive, lower-salary culture. The majority of both men and women So 60% of men and 74% of women prefer the supportive organisation even at lower pay.
Al ElliottReally? Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo culture, in other words, is a recruiting tool before it's a selection criterion.
Al ElliottSo criterion.
Leanne ElliottThank you. You said criterion before. I was like, well, I remember that one.
Al ElliottSo culture fit might predict quite well whether someone's going to stay or whether someone's going to be satisfied with their job, which is only half of the equation, because if they stay and they're satisfied with it, but they're rubbish at it, Mm-hmm. Or they're just not contributing much. Okay.
Leanne ElliottHow many clients have we worked with though that have said, oh, they're brilliant, they're so lovely, but they're just not quite right for the job. They're not quite at the level I want them to be, but they're lovely. And you know, they're so committed to the organisation. That's what we're seeing there, that probably more than likely someone's been recruited because they seem like a good culture fit. Their values are very aligned and they're happy in their job and they ain't going anywhere, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're very good at it.
Al ElliottExcellent. Okay, so that's case 4, which is not shaky, but it's not conclusive by any stretch.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. So in terms of where it starts to get a bit uncomfortable for culture fit, the meta-analysis we talked about, the same one, they found that culture fit, as we've just been saying, predicts satisfaction and commitment. That same study looked at whether it predicted job performance.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThe correlation there was 0.07.
Al ElliottOh, okay, I can do this. So, 0.07 times 0.07. Oh, that's like half a percent.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's less than 1%. So, culture fit accounts for less than 1% of what determines whether someone will perform well in their role.
Al ElliottInteresting.
Leanne ElliottSo, as typically assessed, it tells you almost nothing about whether somebody's going to be very good at their job or not. To put that into perspective, There is other research that's been done to look at different hiring methods and how predictive they are of work performance, because that's what we're trying to do in a selection process, isn't it? We're trying to figure out, we're trying to predict how well this person will perform in said job in the future. So, culture fit, we know, is a fairly low score, less than 1%. By comparison, structured interviews, Al, have a correlation of 0.58. Do you want to do your trick again?
Al ElliottOh, 0.58. Okay, no worries. So, uh, 0.58, 0.58 times 0.58. Oh, 33%.
Leanne ElliottSo structured interviews where every candidate is asked the same questions in the same order accounts for, yeah, 33-34% of performance it predicts. Cognitive ability, so that's things like your IQ test, those types of assessments, has a score of 0.65.
Al ElliottI'm gonna mentally, it's gonna be around about 44%.
Leanne Elliott42%.
Al ElliottRight, yep.
Leanne Elliott42%. So yeah, 1% culture fit, whereas if you're using structured interviews, that's around 34%. Cognitive ability, around 42%. Personality isn't great, it's usually around 10%. Work sample tests, off the top of my head, I think around 20-odd percent. But the idea is, if you're using a mixed method, process to— what's the word— assess?
Al ElliottYeah, to assess.
Leanne ElliottTo assess these competencies, and you're using different methods. So, you're using cognitive ability, you're using a structured interview, and you're using a work sample test. What we know in the literature is when you actually add them on, their predictive validity goes up.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo, when you combine methods, they're even more predictive of future job performance. Stronger together and all that.
Al ElliottLove it.
Leanne ElliottBut yeah, basically culture fit isn't, isn't very useful. Um, I've got loads of other ones, to be honest, but I think probably the main research to share with you is a study from 2023, so pretty recent. We like, we like recent studies, us psychologists. Makes us feel better. Well, what they found is that culture fit is typically used at 3 different points of the recruitment process. It was used to brief recruiters on candidates on what they're looking for. It was used during the recruitment phase, and it was used as a final selection. And what they found is that each stage, it allowed bias to operate without any type of challenge.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo, what we were saying before in terms of people liking people who are like themselves, that was happening throughout the process. So, recruitment consultants described employees as using culture fit to justify excluding other candidates, whether they were pregnant, Whether they were visible religious or cultural markers. Basically, one recruiter described it as an unchallenged excuse because it wasn't formalised, it wasn't really explained. It was just that person wasn't the right culture fit. I think I heard somebody else describe it as culture fit is just a really good marketing spin for discrimination.
Al ElliottThat makes sense. And would you say that culture fit is also like a vibe check? Is that the sort of like the— Cool name for culture.
Leanne ElliottYes, vibe check. Yeah, yeah, vibes-based hiring, right? Absolutely. Yeah. So, is it truth or is it a lie? You already know, but it's a lie. Culture fit in hiring processes, the way most organisations do it, does not predict whether somebody will be good in the job, and that's the entire point of a recruitment process. And actually, if you're not running a recruitment process that is based on some type of evidence of what you're asking people is going to help you predict future job performance, that could even fall into unlawful hiring practices. Because inevitably then your recruitment process is biased. So, it's a really bad idea, actually. What it can be useful for is a little bonus tick, because if you use lots of different ways to figure out if somebody's going to be good at their future job, and they align with the values of your company, you know they're going to be really good at their job, they're going to be really committed, they're going to really enjoy it, and they're less likely to leave your organisation.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, it's almost like that extra bit of stickiness, but you need to be very, very careful that you don't, yeah, don't make some mistakes there, bring wrong people into your business, cost you a lot of money, and it might not even be lawful.
Al ElliottOkay, so it does have its place. It's just, it's, it's, it's just a little sugar to add on top rather than—
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, I think, I think actually I can't remember the exact number, but I think handwriting analysis used to be used in recruitment. Processes.
Al ElliottAnd that was— Graphology, I think it's called.
Leanne ElliottYeah, graphology. And that was predictive of about 5% future performance.
Al ElliottOh, really? So more so, more than culture fit. More than culture fit.
Leanne ElliottSo you're better just asking for a sample of somebody's handwriting.
Al ElliottGood luck doing that. When was the last time you wrote something by hand? I don't remember. Anyway, it is— thank you for that. If you have your own truth or lie, then get in touch with us. We have got a few coming up, as Leanne alluded to last week. We've got, I think we've got 3 psychologists are coming in to do a little segment. We will tell you more about that in the coming up weeks. If you are a psychologist, and a proper psychologist, not just someone who's decided they're a psychologist, proper psychologist, and you want to come in and do this, let us know. The links are in the show notes. Okay, so I think it is time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. I have 3, Leanne. Question number 1 is about enforcing a policy they don't particularly believe in. So this person says, my company has announced a full return to the office 5 days a week. I don't think it's the right decision, and I know my team feel the same. However, I'm the one who has to implement it. Oh my God, this is tough. I'm the one getting the questions and people are asking me directly if I think it's fair, which I don't. Now, I don't wanna be dishonest, but I also don't wanna put a target on my back by pushing a bit too hard. How do you handle this without being caught in the middle? This sounds a bit like, um, like, I know Liz Truss wasn't our, uh, wasn't our best, um, our best Prime Minister, but at the same time, I think it was like, didn't she vote against Brexit and then had to push it through? Or there was someone who did that. Not Liz Truss.
Leanne ElliottWas it not? No, it was the other one. Liz Truss was the one that, like, a lettuce outlived her, wasn't it? What's her name? May, May.
Al ElliottTheresa May.
Leanne ElliottTheresa May, there you go. We've had so many in the last few years, just can't keep up with them all.
Al ElliottAnyway, we're not talking about Theresa May. We're talking about this person who has to push through an RTO mandate and they don't think it's a good idea. Lea, thoughts?
Leanne ElliottTricky, tricky, tricky, isn't it? I think—
Al ElliottTricky little turkey.
Leanne ElliottTricky, tricky little turkey.
Al ElliottI put you off there, didn't I? Sorry.
Leanne ElliottYou did. I was gonna go, I was gonna go with something else, but I'm glad you saved it with turkey.
Al ElliottOkay, moving on.
Leanne ElliottAh, it's a bird. Um, I think the first thing to do is, is go and take all your questions, and if you don't know them, just say, I will leave that question with me. Go and speak to HR or leadership team or whoever it is that's put this policy in place and go look. I know you don't need to give us a reason, because anybody who is doing this type of mandate, I'm not guessing they're really going to be a fan of employee consultation.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo, kind of going, look, I know you don't need to give us any reasons why, but these are the type of questions that I'm getting asked, and I think it'd be actually really useful to know why, as an organisation, we've made this decision, whether it be down to whatever bullshit stories you want to tell me about collaboration, or creativity, or whatever else, but whatever the official line is to why. We're coming back into the office 5 days a week. Take that back to your team. The thing is that people are going to be freaking out about the flexible work that they've lost rather than necessarily being brought back into the office. There may be some reasons, there may be some financial considerations. It may be that some people have moved since, you know, you've been remote, or, you know, have commuting costs have gone up significantly.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo, there could be, there could be some, some real worry points as to why people are pushing up against this, but one of the main ones is going to be around flexible working. Flexible working has kind of been, been a right for UK employees for a couple of years now. I think it was like April '24 that this came in, and this is an HR policy that you're going to be able to lean on to help people with this adjustment. So, Employees can request flexible working. They can do it from the first day of their employment. Those requests, I think you can put up to 2 requests in a 12-month period. Employers have to take it seriously. They have to consult with the employee. They have to give an answer. I think it's within 2 or 3 months of the, the request. And if it is refused, employees can only refuse for very specific business reasons, such as additional costs or an inability to organise work, or a detrimental impact on performance, it's unlikely that they're going to be able to do that if you've had an element of remote working already. So, it's things like, you know, if somebody wants some flexibility around start and finish time because of childcare, that might be a reason that somebody can put in a request for flexible work, and the company would have to work really hard to find a reason as to not, seeing as you've been working. Remotely already. So, I think that's the other thing that you can do is, as you talk to your employees, and it might just be, you know, it might just be the change that people are annoyed with, and actually, when you dig into it, the only reason is, is that they just prefer working remotely rather than they have a really specific reason as to why this is now detrimental. For those employees where there is a very specific reason, then you can lean on this kind of flexible work policy in the UK. If you're elsewhere, then—
Al ElliottGood luck to you and godspeed.
Leanne ElliottSorry, I just assumed you're in the UK. Yeah.
Al ElliottGod, that was a bit racist of you, wasn't it? I assumed you were British.
Leanne ElliottThat's because that's where most of our letters come from.
Al ElliottGood point. Good point. Okay, thanks for that, Leanne. Okay, so question number 2 is all about being complicit for staying. So, hi, Al and Leanne. My employer treats me really well. I'm paid fairly. I've got flexibility and I feel supported. But I've seen colleagues treated very differently. They've been managed out, spoken to badly, or overlooked in ways that just don't happen to me. I can't quite tell if it's bias, favouritism, or just inconsistent. It's left me feeling conflicted. Like, I do like my— sorry, I like my job and I need the income, but part of me feels uncomfortable staying when others aren't being treated the same. Lee, this is a tough one. This person, they're saying, am I complicit just by being there? And I'm guessing by complicit, I don't come across that word. I think, does it mean, am I basically just joining in? By just saying, keeping quiet.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah. It's a tough one though. It is, it is a tough one. I mean, I think ultimately, given the current job market, given the economy, given the state that the world is on fire, it's very, very understandable that you need a job and you need an income right now. So I wouldn't feel too, too guilty in the short term about that, because that is just how— what you need to do to survive, to support you and your family. Survival, you know, in these times comes, comes Very high up on, on the list, doesn't it?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottI mean, there's different things you can do. I think it's how much you want to engage with this. You could try and challenge it. You could see what your company's whistleblowing process is if you think this is falling into bullying and harassment or discrimination in an obvious way. You could, you know, try and have— if you've got relationships with these managers, try and have a conversation with them. Try and have a conversation with someone in HR about what you're seeing. It's all going to come down to the type of organisation you're in, in terms of the psychological safety you have by raising concerns like this and not then having negative repercussions on you. It sounds as though maybe, given this situation, psychological safety won't be very high in the organisation. So, that's going to come down to how much do you trust your HR team, if you have one internally, or how, you know, what type of relationship you have with your manager. That's kind of your only option really, is do nothing or flag it. And by flagging it, you are potentially putting yourself in a risky situation. On an individual level, I think what you'll start to find over time is that having these mismatched values, having this dissonance in terms of how you believe people should be treated and how you're seeing them being treated, that's going to start to cause some tension. I have seen it called moral burnout in the literature, where it isn't necessarily about workload necessarily, but it's about the environment that you're in. And that dissonance, that mismatch, can over time have a very detrimental impact on your health in the same way burnout does. So, you'll start to detach from your work, you'll start to get very cynical, you'll start to get physically and emotionally exhausted. So, from an individual perspective, if you do nothing, Or say you do something and nothing changes long term, this is, this is going to be a really difficult environment for you to stay in. So that might mean that you need to start looking around out there at other, you know, jobs, other organizations. Yeah, I think that's— I'm not sure there's much advice else I can give you other than you speak up if you feel safe. And if you don't, just know that this is going to have to be a short-term A short-term role for you, even though you do need the income, because over time it is going to start to have a really negative effect.
Al ElliottYeah, I think you're right. I mean, I have a feeling the person who wrote this probably already knows that those are their choices, but it's good to hear it from a proper psychologist and go, look, that is really all you can do. You sounds like it's not a long-term position for you because let's be honest, it sounds a bit shit, doesn't it? Anyway. Okay. Question number 3 and our final one, Leanne. How do you scale culture without losing it? So this person writes, uh, we've grown really quickly from 8 to 35 people in about 18 months. Wow. And I can already feel the culture starting to slip. Yes, I bet you can. When it was a small team, things were simple. There was trust, speed, openness. Now the new people don't seem to feel it the same way, and some of the original team are getting frustrated. The truth is, I used to be the culture. I'm guessing this is the founder writing here. But now I'm so busy running the business, I can't be everywhere. So how do we make that shift from culture being me To culture working without me. That sounds like— yeah, that's— go on, Lee. Good luck. Good luck doing that in about 4 minutes.
Leanne ElliottOkay, so how do you scale culture without losing it? You don't. You can't. Because the culture that you need at a scrappy start with 8 people is very different to the culture you're going to need as an organisation of 35. And culture really is, is often a reflection of what you need the organisation to be doing at that point in time. You know, culture is very much aligned to strategy. Is it all about growth? So, what behaviours do we need to see to grow the organisation? Is it about, more about innovation? Is it more about stability? Because culture is just behaviours, the behaviours of you and your team within the business. So, depending on what your strategy of your organisation is, you're going to have to evolve and flex your culture. So, you can't scale culture without losing it, nor should you. The second thing, you are not the culture, my friend. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. You are the kind of that centre focal point. You have the vision, it's your business, you're, you know, pulling it up by its bootstraps. Is that what people used to say?
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, I know it can feel like you are the culture and you used to be centre of this and leading this. And I guess the only truth of that might be that you would be moderating behaviours. By encouraging behaviours that you felt were necessary in the organisation, discouraging those that you didn't want to be seeing. You were actively policing behaviours. That was probably your role.
Al ElliottSorry, that surprised me. I dropped my pencil.
Leanne ElliottSo, the fact that you're, you're now not able to do that, then you have to ask, how can your team moderate these behaviours? And how much do they believe that these behaviours are what are needed for their role, the success of their role, and the success of the business. That is something we could talk about for probably an hour.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo, if that is the case, jump on the show notes. You'll see my link in there. Book a meeting and we will chat. My initial thought is that right now, this isn't a culture problem. This is an operational problem. This is a structure problem. Because going from 8 to 35 in 18 months is probably gonna mean you've got lots of clunky processes. Things are a bit maybe long-winded or a bit broken. There's a lack of understanding, a lack of transparency. Do you have a very clear onboarding process? Do people learn the same things when they come into the organisation? Is that why some of the original team members are frustrated? Because there isn't a formal onboarding and people know different things. So, my thought is that really this is about looking at what we call the psychosocial risk factors. You've heard me talk about those before. Things like, you know, you flag trust as being an issue there. So, what's happening with relationships and where is trust? Feeling down? How is this change being managed in terms of maturing your processes, bringing new people into the business? How is that impacting on people? Role clarity— does everyone know what they're doing? These 8 people, I'd imagine their role has changed quite significantly in the last 8 months. Do they still understand what it is that they should be doing, what their priorities are, and why? I think there's probably a fair bit of, of lack of understanding about people's roles and responsibilities, understandably, because you've gone through a very quick change. So my thought would be to start with something like that. HSE Management Standards is a free tool that you can use. You can also use the RX7, which is our tool at Oblong, just to give you an idea of where things are breaking. And my feeling is it's going to be a little bit relational. Of course it is, because you've got, you know, new people coming into your business, and that can feel quite us and them in those initial stages of growth. I think a lot of that's going to be, going to be solved by improving structural process, operational processes, working on that And then I think once you've kind of got all of that right, because that's easier to fix, then you can start looking at, right, yeah, do we need to revisit our values and the mission of our organisation and the behaviours that underpin those values that are going to help us succeed? Because then once you've got clarity over the values and the behaviours associated with them, you can start to look at ways to police them in real time, and that's going to be basically the team.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAgreeing, whether it be through a team charter or a leadership charter, that this is what the organisation needs right now. So yeah, different things you can do, but I think I'd start with the relatively simple fixes first.
Al ElliottYeah, excellent advice. I would also say to you, as someone who has founded companies and grown quite quickly, is that imagine you're building a house. All right, so you're building your dream house, and you have the house is the company, and the garden is your culture. If you're doing it fast, you're gonna have people trampling all over your flowers, bringing furniture in. You're gonna have loads of rubbish being pulled out and thrown onto your cabbages you've been carefully cultivating. Uh, this is, this is a very strange analogy.
Leanne ElliottI like it.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah. So, but if you are doing it fast, you are gonna break things. So what you don't wanna be doing is going, I want to build a house fast and also keep the garden looking beautiful and keep adding to it. No, the garden's gonna get wrecked to a certain extent because it's going fast. Same with your culture. So I think, yes, of course, it's great that you want to think about your culture at this point. But if you are growing so fast, you probably— the culture might change in 90 days. It might be a totally different culture.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo don't worry too much about your flowers when you're, when you're building your house fast so that, uh, and growing it. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That analogy did well up until the end.
Leanne ElliottYeah. It's just that last, that last line I think is a bit of a banger, but I liked that analogy. I enjoyed that, Al.
Al ElliottThank you very much. Okay, tell you what else you'll enjoy, Leanne. On Thursday, we are joined— you know all this anyway— but we're joined by Kate Young, who's the head of people science at sapier.ai. Sapier are doing some really, really cool work with AI in hiring. Not that kind of bad stuff you're doing in hiring, the good stuff. They're helping companies like Costa and BT and Holland and Barrett, and they make their recruitment fairer and a lot more human. That is something you need to tune in for, because how can you use AI to make Well, Kate knows exactly how to do that. She's bringing behavioural science into these systems and how they're built and used. We're gonna get into all kinds of things. Well, we won't, because it's Leanne interviewed her, but we'll get into job analysis, why most companies get it wrong, and how AI might actually have the solution.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's a really interesting conversation. I learned a lot. Yes, a lot from Kate. So definitely tune into that if you're having any, any issues with your hiring processes right now. Now, if you're still thinking culture fit is the way to go, definitely tune in on Tuesday. No, Thursday.
Al ElliottThursday. Yes, we'll be back on Thursday unless Claude has released a new, a new podcasting thing between now and then, which basically makes all podcasts obsolete, which, let's be honest, might happen any day now.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Al ElliottWe'll see you soon.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.