LIVE EPISODE live-01 · 25 March 2026 · 1:12:15
LIVE! Are we entering the 'Great Career Reset?', with Che Ugwuala, Kelly Garthwaite and Erica Breuer
Featuring Che Ugwuala, Kelly Garthwaite, Erica Breuer
LIVE! Are we entering the 'Great Career Reset?', with Che Ugwuala, Kelly Garthwaite and Erica Breuer
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Introduction and panel setup
The pandemic as the elephant in the room
panel interview#pandemic#covid#workplace
The perfect storm of change and AI's impact
panel interview#change#ai#future-of-work
Dystopia or utopia: what does automation free us for?
panel interview#automation#utopia#dystopia
The hard reality of reinvention and identity
panel interview#reinvention#career-change#identity
Leadership, empathy, and looking inward
panel interview#leadership#empathy#self-reflection
Temporary blip or new normal?
panel interview#new-normal#trends#work
AI-proofing, side hustles, and human connection
panel interview#ai#side-hustles#human-connection
Show notes
LIVE! Are We Entering the 'Great Career Reset'? — with Che Ugwuala, Kelly Garthwaite & Erica Breuer
Guests: Che Ugwuala — Global Lead for Android Marketing Strategy at Google and LinkedIn creator; Kelly Garthwaite — former Red Bull Media House leader turned founder and co-host of The Naked Room podcast; Erica Breuer — creative and go-to-market strategist working at the intersection of culture, creativity, and strategy.
Layoffs are rising. AI is reshaping industries. And career paths that once felt like solid ground now feel anything but. But beyond the headlines, something quieter is happening: professionals everywhere are questioning whether the careers they've built actually align with who they are today.
In this special LinkedIn Live panel discussion, Al and Leanne are joined by three industry experts to explore whether we're seeing a temporary reaction to economic uncertainty — or a deeper, structural shift in how we think about our professional lives.
They dig into the identity crisis that hits when the job you built your life around no longer fits, whether "purposeful work" is a realistic goal for everyone or an over-romanticised ideal, what reinvention actually looks like in practice (spoiler: it's messy), and how leaders can support teams through career uncertainty without pretending to have all the answers.
🎙️ Meet the Panel
Che Ugwuala is Global Lead for Android Marketing Strategy at Google and a LinkedIn creator exploring ambition and the realities of modern professional life. In this episode, he opens up about how deeply his identity was tied to being a "Googler" — and the courage it took to have honest conversations about what he needed.
Kelly Garthwaite is a former Red Bull Media House leader turned founder and co-host of The Naked Room podcast. She shares the moment she realised she was spending more time in the car commuting than living her life — and why turning 40 triggered a major professional reset.
Erica Breuer is a creative and go-to-market strategist working at the intersection of culture, creativity, and strategy. She brings a sharp perspective on why "purpose" is a relatively new expectation — and why her grandparents never had to think about passion at work.
🔥 Key Themes Explored
1. The Identity Crisis Work is tied closely to identity for many of us. But what happens when the job you built your life around no longer fits? Che reflects on realising his identity was so wrapped up in Google that he was "losing out on the opportunity to enjoy" his experiences — and the work it took to untangle that.
2. Stability vs. Purpose Is "purposeful work" a realistic goal for everyone, or have we over-romanticised the idea of a dream career? Erica points out that her grandparents didn't have to think about passion or purpose — while Kelly admits, "Sometimes I just want to clock in and clock out."
3. The Reality of Reinvention What does a major career shift actually look like in practice, beyond the idealised version? Erica is candid: "It's been as hard as I expected." The panel gets real about the internal growth, negative self-talk, and uncertainty that come with the territory.
4. The Role of Leaders How can managers support teams through career uncertainty without overstepping or pretending to have all the answers? Che on vulnerability: creating space for people to bring their whole selves. Kelly on community: "That is the way through."
5. The Future of Work Is the "Great Career Re-evaluation" a temporary blip or the new normal? Erica's verdict: "It's not going to slow down for me, and I've chosen that path." Che agrees — he's at a "fundamental shift" in how he thinks about work and life.
💬 One-Liners Worth Stealing
"I feel like I know this all too clear. Google does a great job of instilling the culture... but I was just losing out on the opportunity to enjoy my experiences." — Che
"Sometimes I just want to clock in and clock out of work." — Kelly
"I know my grandparents didn't have to think about passion or purpose." — Erica
"I felt like I was calling the shots in my own life in a way that I hadn't. Normally I'm waiting for someone else to give me permission for most of my life." — Kelly
"We might be in a moment where people need to stop looking up for the answers and really start looking inward." — Erica
More From the Panel
Che Ugwuala
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/che-ugwuala-mba-1749ab21
Kelly Garthwaite
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kelly-garthwaite
Erica Breuer
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/ericabreuer
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
AHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. What you're about to hear is from one of our recent LinkedIn Lives, a live panel discussion where we dig into the big questions shaping modern work. If you'd like to join us for the next one, just search for Leanne Elliott— that's me— on LinkedIn and hit follow. We announce them there first, and we obviously launch them there first. Right, let's go into it after a quick message from our lovely sponsor.
BThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
AWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform. Every team Can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
BNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
AHello everyone.
BAre we—
Awe are live. If we've been live for the last minute or so, you would have seen us going, I don't think we're live. Are we live? I'm not sure. But now we know we are. Welcome. This is Truth Lies and Work Live. If you've not heard of Truth, Lies and Work before, we are the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
BMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
AAnd together we help you simplify the science of work. And tonight we're doing something a little bit different. So, we have done a live before, so I guess it's not that different, but I'm not sure we've ever had this many panellists before. So it's very exciting. I'm going to introduce you to them all. And tonight we are talking about something that is kind of hard to ignore at the minute. The last few years has been so disruptive for work. The changes we've seen are just unprecedented. Layoffs are rising, AI is reshaping entire industries, and careers that once felt quite stable don't really feel so certain anymore. And then alongside that, something else has been happening. A lot of people are starting to question whether the careers they've built still fit who they are today. For some, that change has been forced through layoffs. For others, it's been a more internal process, a growing sense that the career path they are on no longer makes sense. So, tonight, we're asking a pretty simple question: are we entering a great career reset? Now, to help us do that, we have got 3 brilliant guest panelists. We are joined by Che Guala. Che is Global Lead for Android Marketing Strategy at Google. And a creator on LinkedIn, a brilliant one, a brilliant one. You need to follow him immediately if you're not already. He explores careers, ambition, and the realities of modern professional life. And Shay, of course, brings a perspective from inside one of the world's largest technology companies, while also speaking candidly about career growth, pressure, and identity at work. We are also joined by Kelly Garthwaite. Kelly is a former Red Bull Media House leader turned founder and podcast host. That's what we like to see. Kelly stepped away from a successful corporate career to build her own ventures. And now co-hosts The Naked Room, a podcast focused on honest conversations about the human experience, reinvention, and personal growth. And our third panelist is Erica Brewer. Regular listeners will recognize Erica. She has been on the show before. Erica is a creative and go-to-market strategist working at the intersection of culture, creativity, and strategy. Erica is known for bringing people together to explore ideas, challenge assumptions, and rethink how we approach work. Creativity and Collaboration. Welcome, everyone.
CHello.
AYay.
DWhat an intro.
BOh my gosh.
AYes.
CCan I steal that? I feel like that's the best intro I've ever gotten.
DI know, me too. Thank you.
CThank you.
AAbsolutely steal it, of course. We are so excited to have you here. Throughout the conversation, we're going to be going over to our assistant producer, Georgia, who's keeping an eye on the comments and any questions that come through. So if you are watching live, do ask some questions. Have your say. We will come to the comment section through Georgia every 10, 15 minutes or so. Let's start simple though. What do we think has actually changed about work over the last few years? I'm going to put the year, say 2020, because I feel that was a temporal landmark for so many of us. Che, I'm going to come to you first. What has actually happened about work? What's changed over the last 5, 6 years?
DYeah. I think without acknowledging the elephant in the room, we did have a global pandemic, right? That I think completely shut everything down and required us to sort of rethink what does work look like for all of us. I know during that time period, I was home with 3 little kids. I had twin girls that were like barely just 1, and then I had my son who was about 4 years old. And so trying to juggle both being a parent in real time As well as managing my career in real time and juggling both literally at the same time. I think, I think it was a lot for a lot of professionals who were probably in a very similar boat. And, you know, I think for me that was probably one, the starting point of what would eventually, I would, I would say over time, create a level of burnout for me that Um, really required me to sort of rethink and reevaluate, like, one, my priorities, um, both in at home and then also, um, you know, what I could actually really do at work. And so, um, I definitely say the pandemic was something that definitely helped to, like, reshape and rethink, like, what we think about work. Um, and then I think the other aspect of it as well is just also listening to yourself too, to figure out what, what feels right for you in that moment as well.
AAnd how about you, Erika? Was the pandemic a significant moment for you as well in terms of how you think about your work and career?
EIt was shortly, maybe 2 or 3 years after the pandemic when I was really thinking about it. I exited the pandemic right into chronic illness, so I didn't have time to think about the state of the world. I had to think about the state of my body and how to get it better. And as those types of experiences tend to make people think, I really started thinking about how I spend my time, how I can direct my energy. And I didn't want to spend it on things that don't feel good is the simplest way to say it. And now that we're in this moment where all of the stakes are higher, paths are unstable, and You know, there's, there's higher expectations about how we show up in our careers than say 30, 50 years ago, that if I'm going to subject myself to those pressures of capitalism, the workforce, whatever we wanna put that label on there, well, it better feel good at some point. Yeah.
AI mean, is, is this something that you are seeing as, as well, Kelly, or something that you've personally felt?
CYeah, I think it was the awareness of how much time I was spending in the car going back and forth to an office. And once that kind of went away, I feel like there are a lot of other people who are probably questioning that time spent as well afterwards. And that's why you're seeing this push me, pull you fight happening between corporate and the employees. I already had this time to be able to decide how I'm going to form my day. So why do I have to go backwards? We've seen that it works okay. I think that what, like one of the biggest takeaways is flexibility. Like we need to be able to be flexible. If somebody really wants to be in person in the office, then that's great. But then if somebody has kids at home and they really need to be able to spend more time with them, or they have a dog that wants them to be at home, whatever it is, there needs to be that availability for people to choose. Because we've seen that it works. We can do it. We don't have to be in this office all the time. So, that was a big takeaway for me.
AYeah, I agree. This push and pull is really quite aggressive at the moment. Erica, you were mentioning there about how the deal has changed from 30 years ago in terms of what work is and what's expected of us. demanded from us. We've also got economic pressure. We've also got AI looming. Do you think one of these things is having or had more of an influence, or do you think it's just this perfect storm of change that's really driving people to rethink what work means to them?
EI think it's a perfect storm of change. I know my grandparents didn't have to think about passion or purpose. They were happy that working 9 to 5 Paid their bills. And then when I entered the workforce, I was supposed to focus on passion and purpose. And really, I think that was a play to help me not focus on the fact that salaries weren't what they needed to be then. They certainly aren't what they need to be now for a great many of the jobs out there. It's the perfect storm, and that's what makes it impossible to ignore the disparities. We were at one, at the end of the the spectrum, now we're at the other. And there's just no way to deny what's been happening.
AAnd Che, I'm not sure if I can ask this question, so I'll ask it and maybe you'll answer around it if you can't directly. AI, you know, is a massive disruptor causing a lot of— already we're seeing huge amounts of layoffs, a lot of anxiety around how AI is gonna change our value as humans. What's Google's take on this at the minute? How's life at Google feeling in a world like this? Or maybe you want to generalise the question.
DI think I can give my point of view that may not be necessarily the way, you know, that is coming from Google's perspective. I'll just— I'm just here as Che Guevara. And so, I think there's a couple things at play, you know. I would say that, yes, like, I think the fear is real, um, that people, um, are experiencing this, um, this whiplash almost of just like the rise of AI and how that is sort of like, um, really sort of rethinking and reshaping how we, how we think about the workplace and then also about job security. Um, and so I, I don't wanna sort of like play that down at all because I think that is a reality that a lot of people are facing. But then I think also on the flip side, I think AI can also just be a very powerful tool, like an incredible change agent. Right. And so a lot of what we do within our organization is really become equipped and from like an AI readiness standpoint, like building the tools, building the understanding, building the, the, the acumen around Leveraging AI and being able to do that in a way that not only like obviously drives more productivity, but then I think also at the same time, like gives me more time back in my life as well. And, you know, I think that's a, that's a clear balance and one that I'm always trying to strike as well in terms of, yes, I have this really cool, amazing tool that I could utilize that allows me to do X amount more things. But I think also the expectations rise as well. And so like, how do I balance that out within trying to also maintain like a level of stability for my own life that like work doesn't always become the center of my universe. And so that's just my personal perspective of it as coming into this as Che Iguala, who happens to work for Google.
AI had to try, but yeah, I respect that. I definitely want to come back to, as you say, what it means when, when, you know, work and identity is so Closely intertwined. Before we do, assistant producer Georgia, have we got any comments, any questions so far?
FNo particular questions right now. I do see quite an interesting statement. 2020 really turned the world on its head and the freelance community is booming and has been since then. The hustle culture was the beginning of the freelance culture. That's a comment from Aaliyah Banks.
AYeah, yeah, really. I think I was a freelancer just before COVID and I certainly experienced a, yeah, a definite growth and boom in that. I wonder if it is maybe backtracking now slightly. Um, going back to that identity, because there's so much wrapped up in it. Is it, is it I'm a psychologist? Am I a freelancer? Am I a, you know, culture person? Am I employee engagement? How does that work with my life? Kelly, when the identity that we thought work was giving us just stops fitting with who we are, what does that mean for people?
CI've been thinking about this a lot and I've been talking about it a lot. There is this big reevaluation happening. Maybe it's just the people that I'm surrounding myself with because this is the energy that I'm putting out into the world, but every single conversation I have around career and identity is the same thing. I am wondering what— this is what other people are saying to me, and I'm saying this out into the world. I'm wondering what my bigger purpose is and why am I doing this thing? Why am I working for this company that looks at me as a number? And there's obviously exceptions to that, but I think that's kind of the bigger question that— that keeps coming up is why are we following the status quo when the status quo isn't really like this American dream that we have been wanting to build? Doesn't really— I know, and you all are in the UK, so this is like just us here, but all of it is changing so much. And so I think people are just saying, I can't continue. going in the same direction that I've been going in if everything around me is changing, if it feels like the whole ground is shifting out from under me. So I always forget what the question is when I'm answering it. So I hope that I answered it, but yeah, that's where my mind goes and all of the conversations I've been having lately.
BI think a lot of people would probably say, what are you talking about with purpose? Because We're definitely in a tough market now if you wanted to change jobs, if you wanted to move jobs. We can't afford to talk about purpose, and this is not directly directed to you, Kelly, it's directed to everyone, but what are your thoughts if an employer comes back and goes, you're lucky to have a job, never mind your purpose?
CYeah, I think that the purpose conversation is, that's definitely newer. Like, Erica was talking about her grandparents were just happy to have a job and be able to pay the bills. But I think because people aren't staying in their careers for 30 years anymore, that doesn't seem like it's available for the most part. People are looking for something outside of just what they do because it's not really a means to an end in the same way that it used to be.
BErica, you have probably thoughts on this, don't you?
EYeah. And I say this as someone who has found very purposeful work, I think a lot of what we're sold as purpose, it's sold to us by the elites, sort of the way we're sold the idea of having a good work ethic. And it's a measuring stick that, I mean, it does feel good for us to have purposeful work or work that we don't dread every single day, but it actually benefits them more than it benefits us to seek that out from employment. as opposed to other areas of life.
BChay, am I right in thinking you still do Google Geist?
DOh my God, yes. I actually just did my Google Geist just before this podcast, this live.
BHow does that feel? I mean, does that give you a bit more of a sense of purpose? I mean, tell us what it's like because we had Bill Yost on recently who was one of those people back about 8 years ago who was doing the Google Geist. He was actually like collating all the answers. So, Charles, what would it feel like to actually take the Googlegeist? Does it— I'm guessing you'll say it's going to be great because you have to, but, you know, what's the actual personal experience of it?
DWell, just for folks in the audience who may not know what Googlegeist is, it's basically an internal system that we use to basically assess and grade different aspects of Google. And so on a weekly basis, we'll get like an email alert to basically like ask us to rank like, you know, how happy are to work at Google? Or do you feel like leadership is supporting you? And is there— literally today was just like one of the questions were, is there too much bureaucracy at work that prevents you from being able to advance your projects? And I mean, one, we're like, there definitely is a high expectation for us to be able to fill it out. And I think we all should fill it out because our leaders do actually look at it and use that to make assessments around things that should fundamentally be shifted within the organization. And so, I think it is like, I think it is a helpful barometer for the company. And it's also just our way as an individual employee to be able to sort of give our own feedback within the company. I think I also too just wanted to maybe go back on the the point of purpose real quickly, if that's okay. Um, and, you know, I think what everyone here is like totally, um, you know, correct in their own way. And I think from, from, from me, um, I think in most recent times, the way that I've been able to just like find purpose is just also realizing that the work that I do, while may not necessarily— Oh no.
COh no.
BThis is gonna be the greatest point ever.
CI know. We're hanging on.
BAs soon as Che comes back, we'll obviously give him the floor. Uh, we're waiting for him to, uh, to reconnect. Um, Leigh, was there anything else you want to say around the idea of purpose? Anything we haven't actually covered? Um, Kelly-Erika?
AI think in terms of purpose, and when we talk about purpose in psychology, we talk about meaningful work. And meaningful work is something that we know is a big predictor of employee engagement, and being engaged in our work is essentially the opposite psychological state of burnout. And we know that employee engagement is also a big predictor of performance. So, as you were saying, and I think it was Kelly, that meaningful work is also really good for business, and it's really good for organizational life. But I worry sometimes, do we think, does anyone think we've over-romanticized work?
BSo hold that thought. Does anyone think we've over-romanticized Saeed's work? But Che, you were in the middle of the best point, so go on, please.
DOh my God. Like, was that me? Was— did I cut off or did everyone else disappear? Oh man, I don't know. I just— it looks like I lost connection. Um, and I think I've kind of lost my train of thought, but I think where I was going with, uh, where I was going with it was, um, I'm grateful for the work that I have at Because it does give me the opportunity for me to allow me to like lean into my purpose. And I think that was something that I really found to be really clear this past year, like last year, which was being able to share my struggles, my journey, particularly within mental health, with a community like LinkedIn, with the people that I'm being able to connect with. And that has probably been the most therapeutic thing that has ever happened for me and my sense of self and sort of rebuilding myself. But I also felt like I wouldn't have had maybe the courage to do that without having the security that I have at Google right now. But then on the flip side, I feel like I'm also trying to create security for myself outside of Google too. So it's definitely— Uh, multifaceted or multidimensional really. But, um, I, I also look at my, my role there as an opportunity for me to be able to also experience the purpose that I want to be able to bring to the world outside of work.
BFabulous. Leanne, what was the question? I've forgotten what the question was now. The second one we're about to get into.
EWell, exactly.
AI mean, you, yeah, you, you've segued that beautifully, Che. As I was saying, you know, there's this We know that meaningful work is actually really good for organizational life and organizational performance as well. And it sounds as though Google is definitely an organization that is fostering that sense of meaning and purpose in your work while giving you, did you say, that kind of freedom and agency to find it in other communities? I guess my concern is with social media and the perception of millennials and Gen Z, and I'm a millennial and I've been called entitled before. For wanting purpose in my work. Have we over-romanticized it though? Have we gone too far? Are our expectations too high? What do you think, Kelly?
CYeah, sometimes I just want to clock in and clock out of work. Like sometimes I, like I just assisted a friend of mine on a cookbook shoot last week and I was like, this is great. I don't have to think about anything else after this. I am literally going and just helping and leaving. And there's no additional connection to it whatsoever. And there's something really empowering about just being able to go and do the thing and feel like you've accomplished something for the day and you're getting paid in return for it. And then, so I think that that's one facet, and I think that that's also a great trajectory for a lot of people to exist that way all the time. They just want to clock in and clock out. And then go and mountain bike or ice skate or whatever on the other side of it. I think it's based on personality, honestly. There are certain people who have their whole world intertwined with their work and what they do, and in that case, it is important to find that balance between what I'm doing is a very integral part of who I am and how I'm moving through the world. And so in that instance, I do think it's not over-romanticized, but I think that it has gotten to a point where we talk about finding purpose in our work a lot more than we probably used to.
AThat push and pull is really hard, isn't it, of having, having that meaning in our work, having the financial security. And as you were saying, Erica, that's something that hasn't always been reflected in the salaries when we went into, into work all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed with our idea of having purpose and financial security. Do you think there's an expectation for some organisations that your identity is, is your work, is that organisation, and And I guess what do those expectations and demands put on, on us as individuals in terms of coping with, with that?
EI think it's really difficult to cope with that when most of the pathways, at least in this moment, it feels like that sense of stability is a, like a luxury good. It's not just something that comes with signing on the dotted line and showing up and doing your job. So those expectations in terms of identity become even bigger because you're being asked to not find purpose anywhere else. You're supposed to focus on this one thing, sometimes more than 8 hours a day. So if it's not, if the purpose isn't happening there and my sleeping hours in between getting up, showering, and driving back into the office, I don't have time for it there. Why am I waking up every day? I think that's the situation it creates where at least if there was a little bit of stability outside of those working hours. I mean, I think about my grandfather again, he was a purchasing manager at a cast iron company that made the Monopoly pieces. And he had time to customize like giant aquariums and create different scenes and do correspondence courses and Ships in a bottle and they went to a cottage during the summer. That stability piece, he didn't have to romanticize anything because the romance happened outside of 9 to 5.
AYeah.
DCan I, can I pile onto that or, or Kelly, where are you going to?
CNo, you go and then maybe I'll have another idea on top of it.
DOkay. Um, I mean, I feel like I know this all too clear. And I think Google does a great job of instilling their culture, their values amongst their employees. And, you know, I think for a long time, like, I just looked at myself as like, I'm Che and I am a Googler. And that was kind of it, full stop. I mean, of course, there are other aspects of my life, but I've been at Google now for about 10 years and You know, it, it was really like a large part of my identity. Like a lot of my friends are Googlers. Like it's just, it's just very interwoven into my life. And, you know, when we experienced the mass layoffs, I think across tech in 2023, um, that was a massive like wake-up call for me personally where, you know, I realized that Um, in all intents and purposes, like, I am just a number out of 180,000 employees that work for the organization. And I had to sort of reevaluate where my, like, where I saw myself in all of this. And it was honestly the biggest catalyst for me to sort of, um, really find ways to disassociate, not disassociate myself, but like, um, find worth in my own value that wasn't tied to, to my job, to my title, to the company that I worked for. Um, and, you know, that has been an evolution of mine that I've been on a journey on now for the past few years. And I think LinkedIn has also just been a really amazing catalyst for that for me, where, you know, I can show up, I can talk about Google to an extent, but a large part of what people are getting, like, you're getting me. in all the different dimensions and that I show up in the world. And so I just wanted to, I just wanted to add that in there.
ADid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
BWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
AAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
GAnd 2 out of 3 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
BAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Athe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
BSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
GUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agents to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
AIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I I hope you enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
GIt can.
AAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
GI am.
BGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
ABut come back.
BYeah, come back.
GDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
BI'll cut that out.
GKeep that in.
ANo, absolutely. It's, it's, it's It's such a wake-up call, isn't it? Things like this, whether it be the pandemic or layoffs. Kelly, how would you build on what Erica and Che have been saying?
CFirst and foremost, I love Erica talking about her grandfather and the things he was doing outside of work. I was like, ships in a bottle? I want to do that. That sounds so cute and sweet and going to a cottage for the summer. I think the thing that came up for me was the monetary component and how everything has gotten more expensive and how people are having to do, they're doing their regular job and then they're also doing a side hustle, sometimes not because they want to, but because they need to. And we're, and also salaries have been going down in the last couple of years. There was that buildup for, it was like pre-pandemic. where people were job jumping every couple of years and they were able to get a 15 to 20% raise from one job to another, and that kind of stopped. I think that there's probably 1 or 2% of people who can still do something like that, but it's a rarity. And so people's lifestyles kind of matched whatever money they were making. And so at that point, you get caught where you have to keep moving forward, making more money. I've got to keep Yeah. Jumping up this ladder. And I think one of the bigger conversations that we were touching on when we met before for this live was that we can't keep going in the same direction that we have been if life and society is not continuing to move in that direction. So that's where we have to— so I've been doing a lot of reevaluation within my own life of, can I be less of a consumer? Can I spend less? Where do I want to be putting my money? What businesses do I want to be supporting? And so that's been a big pullback for me is, do I need all of these things that I felt like I needed that society is telling me that I must have? And so that's kind of becoming more of my identity too, is this reevaluation of what really matters to me as far as what my happiness looks like.
BI've got a quick question, but Georgia, anything, any comments or questions that you—
FReally interesting statements and impactful ideas and personal perspectives about purpose and how that's enabled them to create impact. We've got an interesting one about layoffs. I think a lot of modern anxiety comes from working a 9 till 5 job where the norm is now regular layoffs multiple times a year. And there's also a lot to do with purpose in terms of recruitment and the romanticizing coming from employers who want you to have purpose-driven roles.
BFabulous.
AInteresting. Yeah.
BI have a quick question. I know we are running flat, we're flying through this time here, but quick question. I think, is it OpenAI, Sam Altman, who's talking, or Altman, who's talking about universal basic income where we all just, AI does all the stuff and we just earn an amount so we can go and put ships in bottles and make Monopoly pieces. Out of interest, Each of you, do you think that would work? Would that be— is that the nirvana or is that just where madness lies? Do you want me to name you so you don't interrupt each other?
DI mean, I think that there is some truth to that. Um, you know, I do think that that feels a little bit, um, dystopian though, in the sense. Um, but Listen, I don't think any of us have a crystal ball to know what the next 5, 10+ years are going to look like. But I do know that AI is here and we sort of opened up Pandora's box. And the way that capitalism works, everyone's on the search for the next best thing. And so I do think that there will come a point where AI can do a large part of what, you know, all the folks in the room here can potentially do. And so I think as a society, we'll have to sort of rethink and reevaluate, like, what does it mean to be human? Like, what does it mean to have a job? And, you know, I think that does give the opportunity for a sense of like a security blanket. like universal income, where it does give people the opportunity to be able to express their passions because we've created a world in which machines can do the other things, maybe the things that we don't like to do. But that's just my take on it. I do think that there is something there, but I mean, it's so hard to tell.
BErica, dystopia or utopia?
EI think it's— I don't think it's an either/or. I don't think we should wait for machines in order to introduce that sort of stability. And I think Jay called it a security blanket. I don't think people should always feel like they're on the edge. There should be a cushion there. We should be making sure people are taken care of so that they can make the smartest decisions possible about work and about how they're spending their time.
BExcellent. And Kelly, you could make those ships in bottles.
CYeah, I am going to start doing that. No, I don't know. Maybe I will. I guess I'm kind of in that middle ground as well, where I'm doing a lot of observing. I'm sitting back and waiting and seeing kind of what happens before I adopt something full, like wholeheartedly, because I really don't know what direction it's going to go in. And I think as long as people have their basic needs met, then it won't be super dystopian. But the concern is if AI were to take over a lot of jobs and then humans are not put in to replace anything, then that's going to cause a lot of concern. So I would like for certain things to be automated, but I also don't want to completely lose my ability to critical thinking or process. I think process is so important to be able to do yourself.
AAnd it pulls in this whole— it's a philosophical conversation as well, isn't it? You know, it's having purpose in our work and what is the purpose of work? And if we're not working, you know, as we've known, what does that then look like in this new world with, yeah, universal credit? It's, yeah, it's an interesting one. I remember talking to somebody about it on a podcast who asked me about it and I was like, I kind of see personality coming into here a bit. So if we look at like the personality of entrepreneurs and the personality of criminals, they're not that different. The only difference is context. So I kind of see it maybe even going down some kind of, you know, route like that. People will want to be creative, and if they don't have that outlet, they will find it. Um, but yeah, who knows, maybe we'll come back in 10 years' time and, and see what type of world we're living in. I want to get into some of the practical sides of this as well, because I know some of the people that are attending may well be thinking in a similar way, rethinking their career, wanting a reset, wanting to change it up a little bit. Kelly, I want to come to you first because you went from, you know, corporate life to being a founder, a content creator. For anyone thinking about making that type of career transition, what do you think people might underestimate about that process?
CThe amount of internal growth that you're going to go through. I've had to contend with a lot of negative thought trains and a lot of things that required a lot of meditation and recalibrating, kind of questioning myself. When you go from having a really big brand attached to your name to not having it, it is harder to get people to care about what you're saying. So I think it's really being patient with yourself and patient with the process. And I would also say if you are leaping into something that you're not, you don't have another thing set up where you're going to another job or something where you know you have a paycheck, save a lot more money than you think you need. Because that part has been, I have felt fortunate to have the circumstance that I'm in, but a lot of that was lucky in a lot of ways. So I had saved money, but it wouldn't have been enough for the process that I've gone through in the last 2 years. So that is a big takeaway. Logistically speaking, that's a very important part of it.
AI love how that's That feels like it's two sides of the same coin. There's a lot of introspection and reflection needed, but there's also, you know, the practicalities of doing this transition. Again, we romanticize it a bit, can't we? But it's, as you say, it's having that runway is, is, yeah, it's important. Erica, how about you? Because you're, you're now as well building work in a way that, that, that suits what you want to do, what your ambitions are, what your purpose is. Is there anything that's been harder than you expected?
EIt's been as hard as I expected. I don't know. I feel like a lot of folks who are making a change right now, whether it's to work for themselves, something, you know, to do something else, they're not just changing roles. They're actually facing like the dilemma of creating or seeking an opportunity that hasn't existed before. Before you could, if you wanted the new job, you would change the job and maybe get some new skills so that you could move forward or keep the same skills, but just, it was a different comp. There were just 2 variables you were working with. And now we're all, whether or not we're admitting it, solving for an X that we don't even know what it looks or feels like. And that's a lot. It is as hard as— I'm a creative, so I do that all the time. But for some people who maybe that isn't their day-to-day function, that's a lot. That's heavy when you're maybe an accountant and you're used to really certainty and clear answers. That's not what that process is. And I just want to give everybody who's trying to do it right now a lot of credit. We are all creating a new future right now, whether or not we signed up to do that.
AYeah, I think there's, it feels like a lot at the minute that I didn't sign up for, to be honest. Tay, how about you? You said you went through this kind of, you know, this reevaluation processes as well, when we saw what happened in the tech industry in 2023. What have you learned? Is there anything that maybe surprised you as you were going through that reevaluation?
DUm, yeah, I think for me, um, you know, when I talked about like my identity, my identity being so tied up to the company I worked for and my title, I think for a lot of us, like, we kind of grew up with this idea that, you know, you need to sort of like rise to the top of the, you know, to the top of the leadership chain. And, you know, that's what success looks like for, for, for you in corporate. And I definitely was all in and I was all about that hustle culture of trying to get promoted. Like, that was literally like, you know, every few years, like, what do I need to do to get to the next title? And in many ways, like, I realized, like, I was just losing out on the opportunity to enjoy my experiences at work because I was just so focused on trying to sort of get to the next level. And then finally, I got to that level, right? I got to the level of being able to have a team at Google, which is quite frankly, really hard to do. A lot of Googlers are individual contributors. And so, once you become a manager, like, the stakes are that much higher. And, you know, I got into that managerial role and I looked around and I was just like, I don't think this is what I want to be doing at all. Um, and I think that took a lot of self-reflection. Um, that took a lot of just like trying to understand like what, what is actually bringing me joy right now. Um, and right now the work that I'm doing isn't doing that for me. And so, you know, I had to, I had to have the courage to have those like open and honest conversations with my leaders around, you know, I know that this is the path that you wanted me to be on. And that was the path that I thought I wanted to be on. But, but actually, like, I think I can provide much more impact doing something different. I can provide much more impact on being an individual contributor, both in the work that I'm doing, but then also how I, how I show up. Outside of work as well, like being able to have that, that mental headspace to, uh, to be more leaned in as a dad or to be able to build my personal brand outside of work as well and to, to have community with friends. And so, um, that's, that's sort of like a lot of where like my reevaluation went to, like, especially after the, the mass layoffs and sort of trying to, uh, really optimize for, for joy for myself.
AI'm really glad that you took us there, Chukwu, because that's exactly where I wanted to go next, is in terms of, of the leaders' roles within organizations. If, you know, people in your team are quietly questioning their careers, what responsibility do you think leaders have in, in that moment? And what was your experience of, of you sharing that moment with, with your leaders?
DYeah, um, I was thankful that I, I got a lot of support, um, and a lot of understanding around, you know, what type of— what type of future I wanted to create for myself. Um, and that may not always be the case for, for everyone, but I— Like, at that time, I felt really safe psychologically to be able to share where I was at in my life and what I felt like I needed to be able to thrive, um, to be the best version of myself and to give the best version of myself to Not only the company, but also just like all the other folks in my life too. Um, and so that is also just like how I tend to operate as well. Like, I really do tend to operate with a sense of empathy and creating a safe space. You know, I'm not a, I'm not a people manager anymore, but like, I still create that for the folks that are around me where they can feel comfortable coming to me about things. Um, Whether it be big or small. And so, I definitely encourage leaders to lean into that because there's just so much stuff that's happening in the world, not only just in our day-to-day. And I think we really need compassionate leaders that can truly understand where their employees are coming from and really set that example for them.
BKelly, I saw you nodding there vigorously. Obviously, you agree. But both you and Kelly and Erika, I have a question. What happens if the leader doesn't enjoy their job? If they're getting so much pressure as well, then how do you manage all of that pressure of like, well, I'm not, you know, this job's difficult for me and I'm going to have to try and make work brilliant for all the people I work with. Anyone, you got any experience of that? Any thoughts on that?
CWell, I just, I was nodding. Furiously because I'm like, thank you for bringing up empathy and compassion because that is something that is so overlooked because it's not data points, it's not tangible. But if you are a good manager or you can look out for your team, obviously that means you're putting on your own oxygen mask first. But if you can look out for your team, you can change someone's life, honestly, being a good manager. And it's so important to be able to come with those skills. And so I'm glad, I'm so glad that you brought that up. I was like, yes, yes, we need to be having more conversations around that part too. So what you're saying, Al, is basically if you're not in a good place yourself as a manager, how are you going to be able to support your team? I actually kind of went through something similar to that when I was at Red Bull. I had a couple of contractors who were working with me and In California, the way that it works is there's an 18-month-long contract, and then after someone hits their 18 months, they have to leave for 3 months and then come back. It's a terrible system. But I had one of my contractors leave, and then they didn't bring back a second contractor. And so I was going backwards and doing things that I had been doing. I was higher level and delegating, and then I ended up going back and doing contracts and administrative work and all that stuff. And so I was feeling really frustrated for myself, but I tried to compartmentalize. I tried to say, okay, this person who's working with me is not me. And what can I do if I am in a situ— like, I remember what it was like to be that contractor. I think it's a matter of empathy. It's tapping back into things that you remember about your own experience and doing the opposite of something that was negative for you. And that's the way that I was supporting in that circumstance.
BInteresting. Erica, any thoughts?
EI think we might be in a moment where people need to stop looking up for the answers and really start looking to each other. And with that, like what Jay's described, That leader might not even need to lead in that moment, but just hold the group together and make it safe for them to start imagining what else could be, which is a really, again, a really risky thing to put new ideas out there and to feel safe doing it. I think that's what leaders need to do because if employers were gonna solve all the problems, they would've done that by now. That's just not the moment we're in.
AI wanna, I wanna ask you another question about that, Erica, because we've, we've talked about uncertainty and you've mentioned uncertainty quite a lot as well. And every day there seems to be something else for us to, to be worried about and destabilize what our lives and work can look like. You mentioned that, you know, looking around, looking, looking to colleagues. Do you think there is an expectation on leaders to have the answers? And do you think that's where we're we're falling down a little bit, or leaders are putting as much pressure on themselves by thinking they need to, to have the answers in supporting people in times of uncertainty.
EYeah, we're trained to think that way from day one. There's a leader in the classroom telling us how things work. The structure has always been there, and it's really hard to retrain yourself to feel like you can be a leader In those groups, in those conversations, and just start asking questions of those around you. I think we opened this conversation, I mean, not today, but when we were emailing about it, like, what do we want this to be? How could it be? And we're afraid, everyone's afraid to say, I'm figuring it out right now. But if we were talking about it together, it would take the pressure, it would retrain that expectation, it would do so many of the things that we're talking about here now.
AAnd I guess opening up to, to Kelly and, and Che, is there anything you've seen leaders do in, in moments of uncertainty that you're like, please stop, that's not helping?
CChe, do you have one?
DOh, I was gonna go someplace totally different. I thought it was gonna be like, please, yes, we want more of that.
COpen a new door.
AYeah.
DIf that, is that okay?
EOf course.
AOf course.
DUm, well, I mean, just to build on what Erika was saying, I feel like vulnerability, um, is something that is just so important as a leader. And I think that that's just like, it's, it's incredibly hard to do. Um, and I, and I get that, but I think creating a space where you just acknowledge that, like, listen, I don't have all the answers. For, for any of this. Like, we're in unprecedented times right now. Um, but what I do have is, um, the ability to be compassionate, to, to, to— like, you have my ear. Like, we can collaborate. We can figure what this looks like together. Um, I think that's what we need more of, is leaders who are willing to be vulnerable, who are willing to acknowledge where they have their gaps.
FMm-hmm.
DAnd, um, allowing space and opportunities for people within your team to help, help try to bridge that if, if needed. Um, and I think that to, to me, that goes a long way.
CYeah, absolutely. I mean, just community aspect in general, like within work and beyond work, that is the way that we're all gonna be able to find commonalities and common ground and support each other. Just even in micro communities, but within work, no one knows everything. No one knows what they're doing at this point. We're all navigating without a GPS right now. And so I think there's a strength in being able to say, being vulnerable, saying something like, I have no idea how to navigate this, so let's do it together. Let's figure out how I can lift you, if you're the manager, I can lift you up and we can come together to bring our strengths into a place that moves us forward.
AI want to gauge your thoughts on how temporary or permanent this is in terms of us reevaluating and rethinking what work means to us, how we want it sitting in our lives. It's been a heck of a 5 years. There's been, as you say, the global pandemic, there's wars, there's cost of living crisis. It's, it's one thing after another. Is all of this just a temporary reaction to all of that? When things stabilize, will this reevaluation stop or slow down, or do you think it really is the signs of a deeper shift? in how people are thinking about their careers? Erika, if I could start with you.
EIt's not going to slow down for me, and I've chosen that path. I do think as a student of history, you know, you've got the pendulum. It will swing back to a place where it doesn't feel as chaotic. But I do think even when we're on the other end of that swing, what we think of as staple. We've really gotta divorce ourselves from the idea of staple that we grew up with. So even that moment will feel like another reset for folks.
AYeah.
CJay, I don't know if you wanna go.
EI don't know.
DI was like, plus one to what Erica just said.
BI don't know if I can—
DI don't know if I can add more to that. That was really well said.
ACreatively said. Well, how about you in terms of change? And Kelly Erika said, you know, her shift is gonna, gonna continue. Do you see it a similar, similar thing?
DUm, I would agree with that. Um, I think, at least for me personally, like, I've realized I'm at a fundamental, like, shift in my life. Like, I'm gonna be 40 next month. And yeah, dirty 40. And You know, I definitely thought like I had this vision of what 40 was going to look like maybe 20 years ago. And now approaching that, like, it just, it feels so different. Like, I am a different version of myself and what I want is completely different than what I wanted 20 years ago. And the world around me has obviously changed from what it was 20 years ago as well. And so There's this, um, there is this influencer or content creator on LinkedIn. Her name is Jade Powell. I'm going to shout her out, but I love the energy that she brings to the platform and her, her North Star that she says is her KPI that she's optimizing towards is joy. And that is, that is mine. And that's what I'm, that's what I'm optimizing my life against. And You know, and it's sort of going to be that, that consistent sort of, um, that consistent driver for me, no matter what else, no matter what else is happening around in the world. Like, I'm going to be moving myself forward. I'm moving myself forward under the North Star of just like, how do I optimize more joy in my life? And that's, that's, that's really it.
AI love that.
EMore joy.
CYeah. Um, I'm on that train too, Trey. I actually, when I turned 40, and I'm like, how old am I now?
A42.
CWhen I turned 40, I just lose track after a while. That is when my husband and I had the big talk. It was actually the weekend of my 40th birthday. We had the big talk about, do you want to think about leaving your job? And so, 6 months after that, I left Red Bull. And yeah, I just feel like it's undeniable at this point For us to have to figure out how to root ourselves somehow. If everything around us feels chaotic and the ground is constantly moving, we have to go and play in the dirt and touch grass and go out for walks with our dogs and do things, play with your kid, do things that make you feel purposeful beyond where— here we go. All the way back around to the beginning of the conversation. And I love that you shouted out Jade because she's one of my favorite creators on LinkedIn as well. But yeah, the joy component is so integral to everything right now, and it's something that you can choose to exist in, and it's something that no matter what, no one can take away from you if you decide that you don't want them to take it from you.
BKelly, can I ask you just those, like maybe the 3 or 4 months after you made the decision you're going to leave Red Bull and then the 6 months when you did leave, if someone's in the same situation, they're going, yeah, look, I'm going to leave my job. I'm going to pull the trigger. I'm leaving it. What, what does it feel like to actually go through that decision and actually wake up on that day and go, I'm not going to work today?
CThat part was super empowering. I felt like I was calling the shots in my own life in a way that I hadn't. I like gave myself permission to make that decision.
EHell yeah. Hell yeah.
CNormally I'm waiting for someone else to give me permission for most of my life. Um, and so that felt really freeing. And then for a while afterwards, it still felt freeing, but then the questions came up. Because I wasn't moving to something certain, the questions started coming up after that. And this journey of almost 2 years has been really interesting, and that's another conversation for another day, but it's been really hard, but also really, really important in my whole process. But yeah, the day that I was leaving, I was like, yes, I'm going to have all this free time.
BWell, Erica, you just obviously loved that comment there, but do you think it's important that you have to have something to leave to, or can you literally just go, right, I'm off. I'll just work it out as I go along.
EI think sometimes you just have to stop. I've learned that lesson that like, yes, figuring it out from that point on is hard. But sometimes to continue in the same situation would be harder and worse. And I know that sounds privileged and impractical, and I don't care. I think staying in some situations can kill you.
BYeah. Chay, if you were to leave Google and you just said you were a Googler, you actually described yourself as a Googler. So that's like, it's kind of like planted in you a little bit, isn't it?
DI mean, yeah, like, I didn't make that up. That's like, that's a known thing. That's how much like the culture is just so, you know, so prevalent.
BYeah, it's, I think there's, I don't know whether you were alluding to this before, Kelly, but you sort of said like the questions and I've done that. I've changed careers quite a few times. People go, so what are you going to do now? Or, you know, someone says, what do you do? And you kind of like freeze. You go, I don't actually know because I don't have that job title anymore.
CYeah. My ego has definitely been worked out a lot in the last couple of years being like, okay, I don't really have much to show for myself right now, but that's another part where I have realized I've had to dislodge that identity from what I do. And like, Why do I always have to be doing something? Why do I always have to be producing? I don't. I can just show up and exist sometimes. And I also, it was the same thing, Trey, at Red Bull. That's a lot of people's identities. Certain people will go and become a wings team member, the people who hand out Red Bulls in college, and then they just stay at Red Bull for 12, 15 years and they know nothing else. Um, so it's like deeply rooted in people's identity. And that was one thing I noticed. And I was like, I don't, I don't really want to be like that.
ASo. It's interesting that, that you were reflecting on turning 40, Jay and, and Kelly. Um, I'm also in the 40 club. I'm 41. My actual reevaluation came when I was 35. And it's a landmark birthday when you have it end with a 0 or, or a 5. And what's really interesting is in research, psychology research, we found that this is a very common phenomenon for people to completely reevaluate to the point where in organizations, the year after the CEO has a landmark birthday, revenue is more than likely to drop by up to 20% because of changes they want to make. So if anyone is listening, watching, who is about to approach a landmark birthday and is having these feelings, It's perfectly normal and it's a good time to start thinking about it. Georgia, can we go to you please? Do we have any questions from people here that we can maybe answer before we head off?
FWe have a few, but I'm going to name 2 that are really, really interesting, especially to myself. This one in particular is for Shay. For anyone who is in corporate, what changes in workplace policies have been seen since The pandemic.
DYeah, that's a good one. So, at Google, you know, we, like everyone else, like we sort of shifted to like a hybrid working model. So, right now, we allow employees the opportunity to work 2 days from home and then 3 days in the office. And yes, they are tracking this.
EMm-hmm.
DThey're totally tracking this. Um, but what I've found is that there's been more of an appreciation for flexibility, um, within the workspace. Um, and, you know, I think with the pandemic, it kind of showed us that like, hey, like we're, we're operating as whole humans that have so many different aspects of our lives, um, that are, are happening. And sometimes the normal 9 to 5 doesn't necessarily like work for you to be able to, you know, to optimize your life with childcare and kid activities and things like that. And so, um, there's definitely an acknowledgement of that within the workplace, um, for sure. Um, one other thing, and this is just like maybe like a, a Google privilege thing as well, is, um, they also noticed that a lot of our, a lot of our talent in the US, obviously they, they live abroad. And so, they've given us the opportunity to have like 5 weeks where you can work from anywhere. Um, and so, that's just not That's not counted as part of like, um, your requirement to be in the office, which is also really nice as well. So, um, I've personally just seen just within Google specifically, just like more of an attention around just workplace flexibility that's, uh, more a part of our policies than they were before the pandemic.
CIt's a nice perk.
DYeah.
AYeah, I love that.
FYeah, thank you for that. And just one more question that I definitely want to get in before the end is, what should we do in terms of AI-proofing ourselves? Are there any AI courses that you know of? Okay, and that's for everybody, I assume.
EThat feels like 2 separate questions, right? Like, because learning AI doesn't necessarily AI-proof you, it just makes you more congruent with AI. So, I would say, like, work on your human dynamics skills. Get really good at bringing people together, facilitating those moments that AI still can't solve for. That's the power of being human.
CSecond that.
DYeah.
BAnd also, I think the— sorry, Jay.
DNo, I was just gonna— I was agreeing to that as well.
BI think also we've seen the rise of, I think it was called QuitGPT, wasn't it, for a little while? People were just like going against ChatGPT and quitting them because of the thing they did with— I'm not gonna go into it, but the thing they did. And we are gonna get to the point, I think, where it's human first. You are going to go and, Kelly, you were saying before, you're choosing where you're spending your money. So people are gonna be choosing where they spend the money because it is human first. We don't use AI or we nothing is produced by AI. So it will, if we just can just strap in for a little bit, then I think we will come almost not full circle, but certainly come to a point where people will be like, I'm not an AI, I don't like anything from AI, so I will make sure I will actively choose companies that don't use AI. But I'm not sure that necessarily answers the question. Do you think that we've answered the question or do you think there's still a nuance in there? Oh, you're muted, Georgia.
FI'm so sorry. I do actually think there is, I think that's been answered.
AYeah, I genuinely do. Brilliant. Is there one more question we could squeeze in before we head off, or have we covered most of them?
FOh, there is. There was one from Just wiggling myself to the top. There was an interesting one about, have the guests started some AI businesses or any other side hustle in order to safeguard themselves against the AI threats?
AGood question. Has anybody?
CI have not started an AI business. But I use AI in editing because it just pops out some, some little hooks for me, but that's the only thing.
EYou know, in my career, I've always more or less worked for myself and eaten what I kill. And for me, the safeguard is just having different irons in different fires at all times. And I think what we were thinking of as side hustles, it, that's kind of the name of the game now. Everybody's looking to have a little something just in case this market crumbles or that job suddenly ends. But no AI, no AI business over here. I'm not that smart.
DYeah. Um, none for me either, but, um, I think I echoed what Erica just said. It is, I guess, like trying to future-proof yourself, um, by, um, creating opportunities for yourself outside of what your, your normal 9 to 5 is. And, um, that's what I'm trying to do, quite frankly. Um, and yeah, I'm, I'm just on that journey. I'm on that journey there too.
CAll, and all of that goes back to the relationships you have with other humans. Like, just in general, that's where all of the, that's where the meat is unless you're vegan, but you know, that's where the connections are. Yeah. Yeah.
BWell, I think what people, what AI is great at is you ask a question and they'll go, you're absolutely right. And it's, they go, yeah, what a great idea. We should go and, you know, you should definitely go and live in the garage and eat cheese all day. What a great idea. Here are different way cheeses you could try. Whereas, if you actually do the opposite and you go, no, I'm going to push back on this. I'm going to say, I think I'll be real honest with you. That's a rubbish idea. That is a terrible idea. You're the opposite of AI. And then you become valuable because you become known in your organization as someone who's just going to actually be anti-AI. You're going to tell them exactly what you think. Now, that's very careful with that because you don't want to be that person. But you also, you know, if you Just think about what AI can't do. And obviously, there's obvious stuff like they can't come in and fix your air conditioner, or they can't come in. But in terms of your work, there's going to be lots of stuff that AI says it can do, but it's not going to do anywhere near as well as a human's going to do because a human's going to think about it. It's going to think about the consequences around other people. And like you said there, Kelly, all the relationships you've got, is that not going to AI-proof us? just by having really quite deep and great relationships with others.
AYeah, I hope so. I hope so. Yeah, I think, I mean, to answer from our perspective as well, Truth, Lies and Work, we do use AI and automations. We help with our editing, our sound quality. We're playing with it to take off some repetitive administrative-based tasks. If you are looking for specific courses, I have seen an organization called Ivy Jobs. We did have their founders on the podcast. Probably about 12 months ago. They offer lots of AI courses. AI education is kind of their main thing. I haven't done any of them, so I can't endorse them necessarily, but I know they are there. So check out ivy.jobs if you are looking for something practical in terms of AI skill development.
BAnd also, I know that Google's got lots of stuff, Skills with Google. Anthropic's got one. And also using one of Google's tools. Che, if you know the person who invented NotebookLM, please tell them I want to fly over there and kiss them on the mouth. I love it. But what's cool about that is that you can say, right, I want to learn how to use Gemini, Google's LLM, better. So you can literally go into Notebook AI, upload hundreds of videos from, and then use it as your own. I mean, I'm not looking at you, Che, because you know exactly how it works. But for anyone listening, it basically becomes your own sort of like your own LLM that's gonna teach you how to use ChatGPT or Anthropic or Gemini or other LLMs that are available.
AYeah, and could have a whole LinkedIn Live just about that, couldn't we? Maybe we should. Thank you so much, first of all, to our incredible panelists, Che, Erica, and Kelly, and for giving us an extra 10 minutes of your time as well. Thank you to everybody who attended live and everybody who will rewatch this afterwards. If there are any questions in the comments we haven't got round to, we're all obsessed with LinkedIn, you know, the 4 of us, not Al much.
BWe're on there.
AWe'll be in the comments and we'll spend some time answering any questions that we didn't get around to. But yeah, thank you so much, everybody. Thank you to Georgia as well, expertly managing that in terms of the comments and questions. We will see you again on the 1st of April. We have another LinkedIn Live Coming up for you. The details of that will be out very soon. But in the meantime, thank you, everybody.
BYeah, thank you, guys. Thank you.
EI love talking to you guys.
DYeah, thank you.
AThank you.
DLet's make this like a weekly thing.
CYeah, we got this.
DYeah, we got— we could do this. Amazing.
BIt's a deal. We've got it on tape. So go and follow everyone who's been part of this, and, uh, we will see you guys soon. Anything else to add, Leanne?
ANothing else to add.
BAll right, bye-bye.
DBye. Thank you.
EBye.
AThat's it for this one. Thank you so much for listening. If you would like to connect with any of our panelists, you'll find all of their details in the show notes. If you'd like to be a future guest on one of our LinkedIn Lives, we would love to hear from you. Drop us an email at podcast@truthliesandwork.com. And if you enjoyed this, please do leave us a review. It genuinely helps more people find the show. See you soon.