Episode 325 · 6 August 2026 · 52:16

He cancelled his meetings for a week (and nobody noticed), with Chris Lovett, best-selling author

Featuring Chris Lovett

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The Break Point: Stepping on a CD Case and Selling Everything
interview#executive-coach #career-change #life-change #author
The Meeting Experiment: Cancelling a Week of Meetings
interview#meetings #productivity #time-management #workplace-culture
The 'Needing to Be Needed' Trap and Over-Helping
interview#over-helping #boundaries #people-pleasing #workplace-dynamics
Corporate Athletes: Tactical Rest and Attention
interview#rest #productivity #corporate-athletes #attention
Strategic Laziness and Small Rebellions
interview#strategic-laziness #productivity #rebellion #coaching

Show notes

He cancelled his meetings for a week (and nobody noticed) — with Chris Lovett

Guest: Chris Lovett — executive coach, best-selling author of Relentless and Discovery of Less, and proud holder of a 1997 title for best legs in a 5-a-side football competition (he still puts it on his CV).

Have you ever looked at a calendar packed with back-to-back, colour-coded blocks and felt a strange sense of pride? In today's workplace culture, a hectic diary isn't just a schedule — it's an identity. But what if all those reflex "yeses," endless Zoom syncs and low-value emails are quietly destroying your performance and pushing you toward burnout?

Chris joins Al and Leanne to argue the opposite: done deliberately, doing less is how you deliver more. He once asked a senior leader to decline an entire week of meetings as an experiment — and only one person noticed. The same "less is more" mindset that started with a broken Mark Morrison CD case, £156 from selling his stuff, and a one-way flight to Copenhagen now underpins his coaching of leaders around the world.

They dig into why we treat calendar invites like hits of dopamine, how rescuing your team stunts their growth, the science behind why back-to-back meetings drop your attention by up to 40%, and the small rebellions you can run this week — leaving meetings early, joining them late, and saying no without burning a single bridge.

Top 3 Takeaways

Keep cancelled-meeting time for yourself. When a meeting drops out of your calendar, don't fill the block — you were unavailable before, and you're still unavailable. That's bonus time to do the work.
Ask "what have you already tried?" Before you rescue someone on your team, ask the one question that stops you from becoming the bottleneck — and stops you stunting their growth.
Run the one-week experiment. Decline every meeting you don't truly need to be in for a week. The place won't fall down — odds are almost nobody notices.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect (placeholder — build this page once; every future episode links to it instead of repeating 5 lines of links)

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottYou're about to meet Chris Lovett. He's an executive coach, he's an author, and proud holder of a 1997 title for best legs in a 5-a-side football competition. He still puts it on his CV.

Chris LovettMy name is Chris Lovett, and I am currently an executive coach and author of the book Relentless and Discovery of Less.

Leanne ElliottA few years ago, Chris asked a senior leader to do something that terrified him: cancel every meeting for a week and see what happens.

Chris LovettI asked him to decline whole batch of meetings for a week, just see what would happen. Like, the place wouldn't fall down, no one would die. And surprise, surprise, only one person come back to him and said, oh, actually, yeah, we really need you there because you're gonna sign something off. You need me there the whole time? No, no, not the whole time, just the first bit.

Al ElliottOne person, one single person out of a calendar packed solid, color block after color block, looked like one of those Tetris games. That week didn't just free up his diary, it took apart everything he believed about being needed.

Leanne ElliottToday we're finding out what happens when you declutter your job the way you declutter your house. And yes, it genuinely starts with a broken CD case.

Al ElliottI like the way you say declutter, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottDeclutter. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you, of course, by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne and I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.

Al ElliottNow, our guest today, Chris Lovett, he used to have everything society tells you you're supposed to want. He had a great job, he had the title, he had the salary, he had the house, he had the car. Then one weekend, cleaning his apartment in his late 30s, he stepped on an old CD case. He had a full meltdown and then sold almost everything he owned by Sunday night. He made £156 British pounds, and he used it to buy a one-way flight to Copenhagen.

Leanne ElliottHe came back from travelling and did something a lot of us think about but never actually try. He took the same declutter mindset and pointed it to his job. Fewer meetings, fewer reflex yeses, way less busywork. And instead of getting in trouble for doing less, he started outperforming everyone else still grinding through back-to-back Zoom calls.

Al ElliottHe's now written it all up in a book called Relentless, and he coaches leaders around the world to do the same thing with their working week.

Leanne ElliottIf you've ever looked at your calendar and felt oddly proud of how full it is, this episode, my friend, is for you. After this quick break, we'll find out exactly what Chris said no to and what happened when he did.

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Chris LovettMy name is Chris Lovett, and I am currently an executive coach and author of the book Relentless and Discover with Less. But I guess probably what I'm most famous for is being voted best legs in a football competition in 1997, which I think still counts in my mid-40s. And I have put it on my CV. So it's one of the key things I'm proud about.

Al ElliottWell, I would be too. I mean, legs are often neglected. And so yes, I think that's important to have big legs. It's true.

Chris LovettI think I probably did not skip leg day the day before. And then When I was 17, running around a 5-a-side football pitch, clearly it made some sort of impression. Um, at my— I think my football career peaked at that point.

Al ElliottTell me, I, I sense there's a moment in your life where this all kicked off.

Chris LovettWhen I was in my late 30s, had everything that society says you're supposed to have to be successful, right? So, um, you had— I had the job, the title, the salary, relationship, home ownership, car and shitloads of stuff. And the interesting bit was I stepped on a CD case whilst I was cleaning around the home. And you know, the kind of Basil Fawlty moments, if you've ever seen any of those Fawlty Towers episodes where over a period of time, there's just, yeah, like smashing the car with a tree branch. It was that moment. So over a long period of time, there'd be like small accumulations of stress that on its own wouldn't really do anything. And then you do something like you stub your toe on the bed frame and you just lose your shit and everything then becomes visible, all of your issues, challenges, problems, et cetera. And mine was just simply stepping on a CD case. Stepped on a CD case in the middle of my front room. I believe it was Mark Morrison, Return of the Mack, which is from maybe 1995, something like that, which probably indicates to you how long I'd had that CD for. And I just had that moment of, I've got way, way too much stuff and it's now causing me physical pain. And so I had stuff everywhere, tech, games I hadn't used, books I'd never read, CDs that I'd just been hoarding for my whole life, clothes that I never wore, DVDs that I'd maybe watched once or never watched at all. And they would, I was just accumulating all of this stuff.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Chris LovettAnd I realized that it wasn't really making me that happy at all. So by the end of that weekend, I decluttered most of that kind of entertainment stuff. And I remember the exact amount I earned from Music Magpie. I don't know if you remember that, where you scan the barcodes on the back of the DVDs and things like that. That's when you really know how much your stuff is really worth. Like, oh wow, my favorite DVD, 5p. Brilliant. So I ended up re-earning £156 from selling my stuff. And selling that stuff not only just gave me space in the home, but it also gave me the opportunity to buy my first plane ticket from London to Copenhagen, which then started this kind of odyssey of, well, I want to achieve more in life. And I did that by selling pretty much everything I ever owned and then traveled around the world. And it was purely because that one afternoon I stepped on a Mark Morrison CD case, which turned me into like this kind of equivalent of Danny Dyer and the Incredible Hulk with a sprinkling of Basil Fawlty. And here we are now with a second book coming out and coaching people around the world to simplify their work. And I suppose we've got the Mac to thank for it.

Al ElliottI love that return of the Mac as well. What a reference. You can tell I'm slightly older than you, but I definitely, yeah, that definitely takes me right back. So let me ask you what happened next. You booked your ticket to Copenhagen and that would be, just give us a timescale. Is that about 10 years ago?

Chris LovettDid you say? Yes, that was August 2017. I left. And so I took a sabbatical at work and sold everything, Sold the home, sold the car. And normally, like, for a sense of owning things in life and sense of success and moving up in the world, you have keys, right? The more keys you have, the more success you have, right? And I had zero keys, which on the face of it looks like, well, you're not achieving anything. But I had the opportunity to step off this kind of traditional kind of treadmill of life and society and success. And yeah, disappeared around the world for a bit. Um, so that's when I realized that I could achieve so much more with so much less because I literally just carried a backpack of stuff around the world with me. And throughout that journey, I got more confident because I was able to navigate these new cultures and organize my life that wasn't a normal 9 to 5. So out of that structure, obviously when you travel, you also engage in slightly different ways of communicating. Probably in a typical English way, we just shout a bit louder or say words a bit slower. But yeah, almost like having to organize your life without having it planned for you, having different styles of communication, how to budget properly, how to go on adventures where the likelihood is you'll get lost. Find your way back, figure out the problems, the solutions. I went, and then I came back from that journey. And similar to you, Al, you know, when you remove yourself out of the normality of life and you go traveling, you go on adventures, you go back into some level of routine or home life and your view of the world has completely changed. So I always remember a friend saying to me, you'll come back, nothing would have changed, but you would have changed. And that was exactly right. And so I then obviously had to get back into real life, had to pay bills, get a job. And I got a job back in the corporate world. And everyone was just so incredibly busy, like doing things that were of low value, running around, answering messages, going to all of the meetings in the world, like working late, starting early, not having a lunch break. And I was sitting there going, surely this is not, this can't be productive or sustainable. So I just used my less is more mindset and started to do less work. To my surprise, I was able to complete more things of value. And then I started to be noticed, or people that, other people were going, why are you doing less or not attending that meeting, but you're actually delivering more than everyone else and quicker? And it was simply because I wasn't getting bogged down in the clutter of work. So the thread kind of goes through my whole work really is how to kind of declutter at home. And then it's led to going back to work and decluttering your work so you can achieve way more by doing less.

Al ElliottLet's talk concrete examples. So when you went back, so what were you doing before this big enlightenment adventure at work that you realized you didn't need to do when you went back?

Chris LovettYes, I remember when I was at my old work was in fraud and investigations and catching bad guys for a living, which sounds very interesting, but once you've done it for like 10, 15 years, it just becomes another job. And I'm sure similar to you, Al, like, you know, and most of your listeners, like you tend to fall into a job and then that job becomes your career. And then so that's what I had this realization as around that I didn't actually plan any of this. Like, it just happened to me, and I was reacting off the back of it. So my career was never planned, but yet I spent, you know, all of my adult life in it. And so I would be doing things like writing excessive risk reports, which sounded fucking fascinating, right? And, you know, completing spreadsheets and going to all of these meetings where we all just talked so much about the work, we're not actually doing anything about it. So yeah, once you kind of got off that treadmill, I went back into a new context, but saw the same patterns. And I just didn't engage in those patterns anymore. So, you know, prime example being, we have meetings for an hour because that's the default. And so I would ask her, kind of, can we do this in 45? Oh, what? Take 15 minutes off? What are we going to do?

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Chris LovettSo we'd probably not waffle around for 15 minutes, or complete, you know, question the work that we would be working on as a team. And I'd be like, is this the most important thing we're supposed to be doing right now? Because we do get attached to this new shiny thing. So a new bit of work will come in, and that'll be the latest and most urgent thing, and everyone will rush to that. And I'll be like, but what about the urgent thing yesterday? Are we Is that not urgent anymore?

Leanne ElliottNo?

Chris LovettSo yeah, so we get caught in these habits throughout our career. And then COVID happened and it kind of took away the commute. Everyone was on Zoom meetings every day. And so we had, we worked probably about 20% more time-wise and stopped having lunch breaks because it was easy just to log on and work through. everything was a crisis. And we've carried all of these habits into this new way of working where it's hybrid teams, threat of AI is going to take my job, constant restructuring, downsizing of companies, but not a downsizing of things to do, constant stream of societal things that is prompting you all the time to grab your attention, download this app, watch this film, make sure you eat healthy, drink your water. There's so many things in life that are pushed onto us that we have to do. Sometimes you have to unplug and just take a step back and go, what is the most important thing I need to do today? And you focus on that one thing.

Al ElliottI think there's going to be a lot of people listening who are going to go, that sounds lovely, but in my work, I have to go to these meetings. I have to fill in this spreadsheet. What would you say to those people?

Chris LovettYeah, these are probably narratives that we've had over a period of time. So we have to do these things and we have to attend and we have to be there. And the reality is, once you do one tiny little bit of disruption, or what I call like an internal rebellion, you realize that actually some of the stuff that we have invested so much time and effort into probably doesn't need to be done at all. So a prime example being, I asked a very senior leader client of mine who was complaining that they didn't have any time, which is a very kind of modern challenge we all have. We all struggle with time. And so I asked him to share his work calendar with me, and it was almost like a game of Tetris that had gone right or wrong. I don't know, but it was just like blocks of color across all time. I was like, when do you go to the toilet? When do you eat? But he'd convinced himself that every single one of these blocks, these meetings needed him there. Despite him being in a very, very powerful position, he felt that his time was not his own. So we just had a conversation about regaining control over the things we agreed to do, the places we agreed to go. And so as one small experiment, I asked him to decline a whole batch of meetings for a week, just see what would happen, right? The place wouldn't fall down. No one would die. Like, he's not a surgeon, so no one would die. And surprise, surprise, only one person come back to him and said, oh, actually, yeah, we really need you there because you're gonna sign something off. So I just said, oh, does he need me there the whole time? No, no, not the whole time, just the first bit. And so once that kind of reality was presented, it kind of shook that whole narrative of, I do not have time. I don't have ownership over my calendar. I can't say no to things. And that just rearranged his whole view of work. So now he put a cap of how many meetings he would attend. He delegated a little bit more. And there was a psychology of like, I have to go because I have a title, because I have the power. And I want to, and I need to go to also tap into my own need of needing to be needed and wanting to be liked. Because we, you know what it's like, Al. You get an invitation to a thing, you're like, oh, oh yeah, I'll see how I can go to that. Same with work. If you get invited to something, like to a meeting, it sets off the, almost like the happiness hormones in the brain because it's like the serotonin kicks in, the dopamine kicks in. And it feels good. So if someone says to me, you know, give me some advice, you'll stop everything and you'll go, sure, I'm gonna lay down my best advice to you because it makes me feel good. So there is an element of making our own selves feel good in that moment. And then at the end of the day, you go home and your partner goes, how did you get on today, Al? And you go, oh, been absolutely manic back to back. You go, all right, cool. What did you achieve? Fuck all.

Al ElliottLook, I wanna really go down this. I know it's such a cheesy thing for a podcast to say this rabbit hole, but I really wanna dig into this because it seems like you described an analogy at the beginning that if you have many keys, you are powerful and important. The online version of keys seem to be calendar events. If you have many calendar events, you are busy and important. And it's funny when you ask someone, how's things? Oh, it's hectic at work. It says, I am an important person. Once you get rid of that, is there not a sense of loss that you've lost this importance?

Chris LovettOh yeah, it's a massive identity with it. And, you know, there's sometimes when I ask people, how are you getting on? And there's no words at all. There's just noises. Oh, that bad? Okay. But yeah, there is an element of kind of reframing what success is like in modern life because the way I've grown up and been educated and with my family, it was all about working hard. It was all about the graft, right? But now we've got all these tools that take the graft away. So how do you determine what successful is? And my view on it is by the impact that you have in the world, is by the The kind of person you become, the influence you have, the things that you deliver in a workplace that are meaningful and add value to people. And so, things like not going to all of the meetings and actually not, you know, rejecting some of those meetings and working on the most important thing that's gonna impact the most amount of people, increase the profitability of whatever, or launch a new project quicker than anyone else. So they're the things that ultimately you would put on your CV. I don't know anyone now that's gone to an interview and been asked, how many meetings do you attend a week? Because we're looking for you to do between 15 and 16 meetings a week.

Al ElliottCool.

Chris LovettAlso emails, if you could reply within 5 minutes, that's the standard that we set here in this organization. It's bollocks. Like, you're not valid. You don't put that on your CV. Right? That you got to inbox zero quicker than the rest of your team. So, but we still kind of see those things as successful. But yeah, so my kind of view of Relentless is ultimately just saying, there's a lot of stuff we all do, and we all get caught up in that, that isn't that important. Focus on the really important things. And you might be able to grab yourself some time back and be the friend, parent that you've always wanted to be and actually look after yourself because the kind of stats around burnout linked to it are huge as well.

Al ElliottWell, let's talk about what you actually do. So let's say we followed everything you've done. We've now got our week back. We have now managed to do our work in 20% of the time that we used to do it in. I sense there's going to be people sitting there going, shit, what do I actually do now?

Chris LovettYeah, it's a great question. So I think that would be the utopia, right? I think when we was in the 1950s, there was a guy called, I think maybe Alvin Toffler, but you might have to check that. He said we'd be working 15-hour weeks by now. That's not true. Obviously, we're not anywhere near working 15-hour weeks. There's a massive call for a 4-day workweek. So many countries are now trying, implementing things, especially in Scandinavia. Some countries in public sector roles are starting to go to 4-day workweeks now. And then actually seeing the increase in productivity, in quality of life, wellbeing, profits, So yeah, so we are moving in that direction. The trouble we're seeing is society and our own need to be doing will always kind of drag us back, which will level it all out. But yeah, of course, in workplaces, especially in corporate life, there will always be a need to do more. So it's finding that balance of making sure that I've got enough that adds value, And potentially letting go, or at least pausing the rest of it until I do have adequate time to come back to it. But yeah, I'd love to be in a place where I'd be like, I only work 2 days a week. And it's just the most important stuff that unfortunately the reality is not like that yet. What about you? Do you work 2 days a week?

Al ElliottNo, but we do work sort of 3 days a week.

Chris LovettOkay, that's good. That is good. You've got the— you've figured it out. Tell everyone the secret.

Al ElliottDo you know what the secret— my secret is? I just don't reply to emails because I think if they're important enough, they will email again.

Chris LovettThere you go. There you go. That's one of the things, right? In a workplace context, email is probably the slowest form of communication now. You'll have a Teams message ping off, you'll have a Slack message, and analog, shock horror, People can ring you if they really needed an urgent answer on something. So one of the tiniest, tiniest little rebellions you can do is by not being the first person to respond to like a group email. But again, all of that is layered in our experience of work, what success means, our own kind of internal monologue of like, If I reply first or reply quickly, then that comes across as a positive view in the eyes of people of power. But interestingly, you'll get a reputation of that you respond fast, not that you get a reputation of you deliver great value.

Al ElliottWell, I stick with that idea. Okay. I think that there are a lot of people, I know some people, and I used to be this person when I had a job about 20 years ago, was, oh, well, if I don't, if I'm the first one to reply or I send an email at 7:00 AM, my bosses are going to go, Wow, this guy. Oh my God. They're the next for promotion. So I think if you're coaching me, tell me, no, don't do that. I might be worried that your boss thinks, well, these people are lazy. Al's lazy. He's never gonna progress. Does it ever work out that way?

Chris LovettYeah, that's a great shout because the view of laziness and even like resting, things like that, has been given such a bad rap because of the hustle bros and the hustle culture. Don't forget to get up at 5. Do your Miracle Morning and eat your eggs and protein and go for a marathon before you log on. And also, don't forget that you've got parenting responsibilities, because you're going to be the best dad and the best mum. It's ridiculous, right? And obviously, the stats now go the other direction of like, we tried that as a society and it ended up bad because about 79% of people in the UK have experienced some level of burnout in the last year or so, according to Mental Health UK. So we tried the hustle and it ended up that we were just all going off stress. And unfortunately, some people were passing away due to overworking. I think the most recent case of it, there was a guy in China, who was, he's only 32 and he was working every single day remotely, had probably the responsibility of about 5 or 6 people, 5 or 6 jobs because of the restructuring and wouldn't take any breaks. He had a heart attack at home. And as he was being wheeled out of his home on a stretcher, he said to his wife, Don't forget to bring my laptop to the hospital. He passed away a bit later, unfortunately. And whilst he was passing away, he was still receiving Teams messages asking if he could respond to something because it was urgent. 8 hours after his death, he got a complaint from another colleague to say, why have you not responded yet? This is really urgent. So, We tried it. As I say, we've tried the hustle. And unfortunately, that's not necessarily an extreme example, but these examples are becoming more prevalent. So being more sustainable. So if people are having a bit of a, feel a bit iffy with the word lazy, because that's got a negative connotation to it, actually high performers Build in breaks and rest all the time. Let's look at athletes, for example, right? You don't see a 100-meter sprinter turn up at 9 AM on the track and sprint until 9 PM. Like, not sustainable. They do a sprint, they stop, they stretch, they recover, they analyze what worked, what didn't work, right? Let's go back to the start. How did my start go? What was my middle like? And that's what they— recovery and rest is part of the work. So even there's so much science on the impact on the brain as well. So even just after COVID, when we had the bit of the Zoom apocalypse, right, where everyone was on Zoom because we didn't have a choice, Microsoft did some experimenting on the activity in the brain if you were doing back-to-back meetings. And again, the term back-to-back, it fills us with like, well, I'm important, I'm doing stuff, right? Again, however, the science tells us something different. So back-to-back meetings, if you have no breaks, the stress on your brain increases every time you go into another meeting. If you had a meeting, even if you had a 10-minute break between your meeting, the brain recalibrates and the stress levels out. If you continue on without any breaks, your attention and your engagement drops by about 40%. So if you're in charge of, say, big businesses, people's careers, and big products, by 3, 4 o'clock, if you've not had a break, you're probably working at about 60% attention, which means you might not be fully listening, you might miss a few things, and you increase the risk of errors. And then when you layer on later into the evening, because of course, now I've been to all of these meetings, I've got to do the work, right? All of the actions off the meetings, all the people I've got to respond to. Once you're doing that later into the evening, you then start to kick into the law of diminishing returns, which is a classic that goes back maybe a century or so, right? So these things are not new. They've just been remixed for a modern work and life. And again, if you get to the point where it takes you an hour to think about how to respond to a message, you are more likely to make things worse than make things better. So also, you lose your return on investment of hours input versus quality of output. So you have to be aware of when to stop. Use breaks as a tactical and strategic approach to get the best out of your brain, because you are a corporate athlete and you use your brain. That's your key muscle. So look after it, keep stretching it, and give it the rest it deserves. So yes, I kind of use the term lazy as a little bit of a poke, um, to— for us to be a bit more strategically lazy. So we can actually just go back and have our lunch break, um, Have a little 5 minutes between your next thing and just go and make that cup of tea. And because your brain will thank you for it, and you'll likely perform a lot better because of it.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Chris LovettAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.

Al ElliottAnd you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Chris LovettSeamless, seamless.

Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.

Chris LovettWe've just done an episode on fake news. Fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Chris LovettI am.

Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back.

Chris LovettDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. You mentioned sprinters there, but I actually kind of want to twist this a little bit and talk about laziness and sprints. Um, back, back in about 2006, I read something where someone said, it was a phrase, short-term busy for long-term lazy. And it said, what you do is you might spend 2 years working so incredibly hard so that you can then spend the rest of your life or the next 5 years like nice and calm. And I did that. I built a property business and that has given us a decent amount of wealth that we've lived off for 15 years. However, that doesn't— do you agree with that? Do you think that this short-term busy for long-term lazy is a good thing or is that still damaging us?

Chris LovettI think that's a great conversation to have because I think when you've got the energy and when you're younger, I think that's an approach a lot of people in Silicon Valley are taking. If I work my ass off for 5 years earning $200K a year, I can dip out and I can have that wealth. So yeah, there's a real kind of interesting approach at the moment. But interestingly, this goes through history. So again, traditional lazy people, or let's say people that are more conscious around where they spend their time, look for quicker solutions so they can get back to doing nothing. So you think of all of the stuff that we use on a day-to-day basis, the remote control for your TV. That was an invention because people couldn't be bothered to get up and change the channel on the TV anymore. Same with escalators, right? Escalators were put in place because someone thought, I can't be arsed to walk up all of these fucking stairs all the time. So you'll see all of these inventions throughout modern history where we're trying to simplify, we're trying to make life easier. for ourselves. And this is just another tactic of doing that. So yeah, I totally agree. It's a great debate to have around how to approach that. But I think right now, because of the volume of attention being taken away and the volume of work versus the resource you have available to do it, these are all up in the air at the moment. So I'm offering a bunch of new kind of remix tactics into new ones that have been proven to work in workplaces so that people can implement their own approach to how lazy or sustainable they want to be, but still achieve great things.

Al ElliottFabulous. Well, let's do that. So let's have a little virtual coaching session. So I'll set the scene. I've come to you. I am so busy at work. I'm working in the evenings. I'm working on the train on the way to work. I'm always thinking about work. My calendar looks like, as you said, a Tetris that's been completed. What's the first thing I should be doing?

Chris LovettTalk me Well, my kind of first thing would be to ask you around, do you struggle with saying no to people?

Al ElliottSo should we do this as a proper, like, backwards and forwards?

Chris LovettYeah, let's do it. Yeah. So yeah, where do you struggle to say no, Al?

Al ElliottI struggle to say no to my boss, but also I manage 5 people and I want their lives to be, I want them to like me and I want them to have a great time at work. So quite often they'll come to me and say, I can't do this piece of work. So I'll say, well, let me let me have a go at it and I'll give you it back. Is that wrong?

Chris LovettI think this is how we've been brought up as leaders, managers, professionals, is that to help, right? It's a very ingrained societal thing to help others. And of course, I'm not here to say don't help, but I think when your time is limited, you always have to make choices. So I guess my follow-up question would be, was helping these people the most important thing for you that day?

Al ElliottNo, but Chris, I don't want to be selfish. I can do my work at home.

Chris LovettIt's interesting how we've gone to like, oh, it's a negative if I don't help them. And even like using the term like selfish. So my kind of repackaging of these terms, lazy, selfish, is purely from a positive aspect because you're Trying to regain a sense of control. You're trying to regain that bit of like, I am my best when I'm doing these few things. So let me repurpose this for you, Al. We'll see where we're at. These 5 people have come to you because you're clearly the best at what you do. You are the man. You are the subject matter expert, right? And that's completely true because over time you've proven that by delivering great results, by helping a bunch of people. People know you for that, right? Once you get to a point where, who are you helping really? Are you helping yourself to just that little hit of dopamine, that serotonin? Or is it best that you maybe not ignore, but ask a different question to the people that come to you? So maybe asking a question of these people that report into you, something like, what have you already tried?

Al ElliottSo let me understand this. So someone comes along and says, I can't get this spreadsheet to balance or this thing to work. And my old Al would have gone, oh, let me have a look. I'll get it back to you by the end of the day. But are you saying that new Al should go, well, what have you tried? Is that, have I understood that?

Chris LovettYeah, perfect. Perfect.

Al ElliottAnd so what does that do?

Chris LovettIt puts it back into the other person's control. So there's a couple of things at play here and like the psychology of adult progression as well is if you take that bit of work, You could be over-helping. You could be stunting that person's growth because they've always come to you because they know that that's the easiest thing and you are gonna rescue them, right? So they'll go, I've got a problem. I'll go to Al. Al will fix it for me. Whereas if we spin this around and go, I'm here to support your continued growth as your leader. So you tell me what you've tried. If they go, well, I haven't really tried anything because you've always just rescued me, Cool. Okay. Go and try a couple of things. Let me know how you get on. Great. That person has to do that bit of, oh, figure it out, right? So figure stuff out and come back with probably some answers that you might not have even thought of as well. They might come back and go, you know what, Al, I tested this bit and I found a way that I could do it this way. And you'd be like, you know what? I've never even seen that. And so it allows that person to explore, to stretch, to grow themselves. And you've just given them the space to do that. Enough space so you can then check in, but not too much where it's almost a little bit like, I'm ignoring you, get on with your life, see you in 5 years. So these are the roles where, as adults, we're responsible for helping other people grow. What we tend to do is we step on other people's stories. So we have these things called like war wounds, right? Do you remember these scars that we've got through work? Oh yeah, that was horrible. That was, right? We tell other people about how we got through a hard time, or we were resilient enough to figure something out, right? If we keep rescuing people, we take away those stories from others. And we don't allow them to grow. And one of the interesting challenges I'm finding at the moment, and again, this is real live, is that senior leaders are asking me, they're like, I don't have a successor, because their team, they don't feel their team are capable enough to step into their shoes. And one of the potential issues with that is because they've always helped them. Every single time when there's been a problem, they've gone in and solved it for them. So again, this is just when you just change the way that you approach something very tiny, very slightly like that, it allows people a bit of space to just explore and find their own answers. So that's kind of the angle that I would approach it.

Al ElliottI think there's a lot of people who are going to feel quite uncomfortable by what we've just, what they've heard so far. I suspect that the main question is going to be, well, how do I change? What do I actually literally say so I don't look like I've suddenly become some asshole who's not gonna answer your questions?

Chris LovettYeah, there's loads of these in the book, by the way. So you'll have plenty to play around with. But these are the smallest bits that most people won't even notice. So it is the smallest little change to give yourself that bit of proof or evidence to say that it's safe to do it. 'Cause a lot of people won't say no to people. A lot of people won't decline a meeting because they feel there is a threat or a negative consequence of some sort. And again, that goes all the way back to cave people days, where if we were disagreeable from where the group dynamics wanted to be or wanted to go, the likelihood is you got ostracized, right? Which meant you didn't get access to food, shelter, protection. You probably died, right? And so our brain hasn't evolved as well as we think it has. We still think that a threat is a threat to our life. So it goes into protection mode. So of course, we'll say yes to the boss when really we want to kind of push back a little bit. Of course, we'll go to that meeting because we feel like declining puts us in a bad light or we get a negative reputation because of it. The reality is somewhat different now because everyone's so busy, they don't really care about what you're doing. So tiny little things, for example, I'm gonna leave this meeting 10 minutes early because I've got another one straight after. People just go, oh yeah, that sounds professional. Whereas the opposite is you bounce into the next meeting without a break, probably turning up late to the next one, even later to the one after that. And even later to the one after that, whilst your engagement and attention is also on a downward spiral. That does not sound like a high performer to me. A high performer sounds like, I'll join you 5 minutes late so I can be fully prepared and ready for you. Oh, lovely. Yes, of course. I'd love you to give me your full attention. That sounds amazing.

Al ElliottI think the final part of this is potentially thinking about What happens if it's not your boss or your subordinates or your team members who are making you busy, but it's perhaps you've got clients who are just relentless and that's what's making you, making you busy. By the way, nice plug for your book, Relentless. So, but the clients are just relentless with what they want. Is there a way to deal with that with clients?

Chris LovettYeah, I think it's just having a bit more, um, more of a professional adult conversation with what people really want and what's the most important thing. So there's a really good case study actually that's in the book around putting your boundaries up and not rejecting, but saying no to others. So I think it was Amanda Cravens and her group of social scientists back in about 2022. They did this experiment where they wanted to reach 100 declines or 100 nos to pieces of work. So outside of their day job, they would also get asked to do, write papers, tutor students, do talks, because they were really good at what they did. They got bombarded, right? So they had to put up the barriers of like, oh, we can't do it all. So they had to kind of say no. What they initially thought was that if they turned down work or if they rejected people or if they said no, that the relationship would be damaged. But actually the opposite was true. What they found was that the people that they said no to actually had a higher level of respect for them because they were more transparent. And the people that, who had asked for the work had a higher level of emotional intelligence.

Leanne ElliottHmm.

Chris LovettIn that relationship. So it kind of went a little bit less like, almost like, I'd love to, I would love to help, but I've got this other stuff on right now that is my priority. When I've done that, I can get around to your thing. People go, oh yeah, that sounds, it sounds very plausible. It sounds like it's real life, right? Whereas if I just said, yeah, I'll get I'll get on it. And you've basically just disagreed with someone else who's asked you to do something else. So the stuff you've already agreed to do then obviously takes a bit of a hit. So yeah, so they did this for a year. And over the 100 nos, they learned that, yeah, the relationships with the people they turned down got better. And the quality of the work they had already agreed to do improved. So I'll just repeat those 2 things, right? The relationships got better because of the transparency and respect, and the quality of the work they had already agreed to do got better. So that was in '22. And the Financial Times actually went back to this group of scientists last year, and they said, oh, we want to just check in. How's this whole no thing going? And one of the other scientists said, we downplayed it a bit. We should have gone for 400 nos instead. So they saw the benefits of doing this, and they actually, you know, times 4, right? So they then said, look, the work we've currently got has increased massively in quality. And again, the relationships that we've got are really strong because we've had honest, adult, professional conversations with these people to say, you know what, what you're offering is a great piece of work. However, I've already agreed to do these few things. And like, yeah, you know what? Thank you.

Al ElliottThis all makes such incredible sense. And I'm guessing that you've got 2 books. You've got Discovery of Less and Relentless, haven't you? So tell us what, first of all, who should read which book and in which order? And also tell me some of the favorite things that you put into Relentless.

Chris LovettYeah. Discovery of Less is a independently published book that I did first, which is all about the clutter at home. And so if you're wanting to break free from the societal norms, do a bit of decluttering and give you that mental and physical space to explore what might be next for you, that's probably the one. And if you like a bit of travel, there's almost like a travelogue in there. As well. And then the second one is purely about decluttering work and all the tactics behind simplifying your approach so you can be more sustainable. But I've really loved writing this second one and doing all of the research behind it, because I live it. It's my day-to-day life, right? I'm with all these people and I hear all of these stories. So almost like I get given content on a daily basis and it's so up to date. It will help a lot of people. But yeah, my favorite bit was very recently, one of the last things that got put into the final draft was about someone who had quit their $200 grand a year tech job to start up their own dog poo picking up business. Yes, it's a real thing, right? It's a real thing. So this guy, I think he lived in Texas. He was burnt out through work and because he was at a high-pressured sales job. So big money. So again, if you equate traditional metrics to success, he had the house, the family, the big salary, right? The big job. Because he was working so hard, he wasn't seeing his kids. He had 5 kids, right? He wasn't seeing any of his kids and he was just exhausted. Mental health got damaged. It was just no way to live. So he traded his health and his life for the number. And one day got to a point, he was like, I don't want to do this anymore. But had all of that entrepreneurial spirit that he'd learned on the job and just took all of those skills and started up his own business and spotted an opportunity to help elderly people who had dogs to go around their house and to pick up their dog shit for them, right? So he would charge a certain amount per client. And over a period of time, he had a number of clients. And so then had to employ a couple of people to go to the different towns and go and help them with picking up dog poo. So he set up a dog shit business. And he's like, his response was like, I work now 3 days a week. I get to spend loads of time with my kids. Probably earns a little bit less than the $200K a year, but it's on his terms and he's so much happier. And that's kind of the point of this second book. And I guess the first one really is that your time is finite, your life is finite. I'm sure you could be doing more important things than being stuck in a meeting that doesn't go anywhere, or doing a piece of work that you know deep down isn't really that important. So this book is hopefully the tool that can help you navigate your way through in what I call like the do more with less era.

Al ElliottMm-hmm.

Chris LovettAnd so yeah, this book is for the busy people who are who don't have time to read a book. Every chapter is like 5 minutes. You can literally go to the toilet, read a chapter, and then implement something new into your day and go, oh yeah, I tried that thing. No one noticed, but I noticed.

Al ElliottSo if somebody wants to hear, wants to maybe be coached by you or want to buy the book, where's the best place for them to go?

Chris LovettOh, anywhere on social media. You'll know, you'll spot the guy with the big hair and you'll be able to find me. And, but LinkedIn, I'm on mainly. At the moment, I did dabble with TikTok for a little bit. That was interesting.

Al ElliottAs in, did it work or not?

Chris LovettWell, yeah, you get like, there's a couple of videos that went through the roof and you kind of think, oh, cracked it. This social media lark's easy, right? And then you've realized that actually it's the algorithm has just pumped your video to a whole bunch of brand new people. But Yeah, really interesting now is that sometimes I'll come up with these like quite big conceptual ideas about how to save time or how to work better and things like that. But actually, the response of just really simple things was the biggest. So one of the ones that went viral was if you have a meeting in your calendar and then someone cancels that meeting, just leave it in there because you were unavailable before. Now you're still unavailable to everyone else. So almost like that is your bonus time that you've got back to do the work. And something simple like that I've been doing for years was brand new to others who are going, oh my God, that is, that's amazing. I'm starting to do that right away. And similar to things like, you know, sticking your out-of-office on, Whilst you're in the office to tell people, look, I'm working on a really big bit of work at the moment, so any responses to messages might be a bit delayed. Like, how professional is that? That's like top level, really. You know, at times you need to tell people to back off a little bit because you're important and the work you're doing is important. So you need that time to actually do it. And do it to the best of your ability. And sometimes that won't be possible if you're continually getting interrupted by other people's messages, other people's problems, and your own desire to be needed and wanted as well.

Leanne ElliottThat was Chris Lovett. I mean, there's so much to steal in there, but 3 things we need to steal straight away. Number 1, when a meeting gets cancelled, don't delete the block. Keep the time for yourself.

Al ElliottAnd number 2, before you rescue someone on your team, ask what they've already tried. It's the one question Chris says stops you from becoming the bottleneck.

Leanne ElliottAnd number 3, run his actual experiment. Decline every meeting you don't truly need to be in for one week. Odds are almost nobody notices.

Al ElliottNone of this is about producing less though. It's about understanding the difference between what makes you look busy You can find Chris Lovett on LinkedIn.

Leanne ElliottHe's the one with the great hair. Visit his website, chrislovett.co.uk, or pick up Relentless wherever you get your books. Of course, all the links are in the show notes.

Al ElliottThat's it for today's summer edition. We are back next week with more of our lighter content for your summer break, including Corporate Family Fortunes with Dani Wareham. Goes about as well as you'd expect. As you'd imagine it would. Uh, and that's on Tuesday. And a real-life GP on Thursday who's going to show you exactly how to disconnect this summer.