Episode 79 · 23 February 2024 · 43:10
79: Why Mental Health Matters: Insights from Dr. Sarah Hughes, CEO of MIND
79: Why Mental Health Matters: Insights from Dr. Sarah Hughes, CEO of MIND
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Intro: Mental health as a human condition
Welcoming Dr. Sarah Hughes, CEO of MIND
interview#sarah-hughes#mind#ceo-interview
What MIND actually does — advocacy, shops, and services
The serious misconceptions that remain around mental illness
How the conversation has changed — and what's still missing
Generational views — debunking the 'Gen Z only' myth
Mental health as a social injustice
Sarah's personal journey — mental health as her life's work
MIND's Mental Health at Work commitments — practical steps for businesses
interview#workplace-commitments#business#mind
Key takeaways and where to find MIND
Show notes
Why Mental Health Matters: Insights from Dr. Sarah Hughes, CEO of MIND
Guest: Dr. Sarah Hughes — Chief Executive of MIND, the UK's leading mental health campaigning organisation, with over 35 years of experience in the mental health sector.
Mental health is a human condition. None of us are immune. So why do we still struggle to talk about it — especially at work?
Al and Leanne sit down with Dr. Sarah Hughes, CEO of MIND, for a wide-ranging conversation about the state of mental health in the UK and beyond. Sarah shares her personal and professional journey — from her 35-year career in the sector to her one-year anniversary as MIND's Chief Executive — and unpacks everything from the economic cost of mental ill health (£56 billion a year in the workplace alone) to the urgent need to update the Mental Health Act.
They explore why the public conversation has shifted dramatically over the last 40 years yet serious mental illness remains deeply misunderstood, why leaders sharing their lived experience can be transformative, and how businesses can move beyond box-ticking to genuinely support employee wellbeing.
Top 3 Takeaways
Mental health is a human condition, not a niche concern. None of us are immune — which means workplace mental health isn't an HR issue, it's a business issue.
Serious mental illness is still deeply misunderstood. While the conversation has opened up enormously, there remains a huge lack of understanding around conditions like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder — and that lack of understanding has real human and economic costs.
Lived experience is a leadership superpower. Leaders who share their own mental health journeys don't just build trust — they create the conditions for others to ask for help before crisis point.
More From Dr. Sarah Hughes & MIND
- MIND website: mind.org.uk
- MIND information and support: mind.org.uk/information-support
Connect With Us
Join the conversation on LinkedIn, email the show, or book a call with Al and Leanne:
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/truthlieswork
- Connect with Al: linkedin.com/in/thisisalelliott
- Connect with Leanne: linkedin.com/in/meetleanne
- Email: Hello@truthliesandwork.com
- Book a call: oblonghq.com/book
If you have been affected by any of the themes in this episode, or are currently struggling with your mental health:
MIND: mind.org.uk/information-support — Samaritans (UK): 116 123 or jo@samaritans.org — find support worldwide at findahelpline.com
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Sarah HughesYou know, I remember, for instance, during the pandemic, a group of charity leaders, we're sitting around and we're, you know, we're talking in our respective homes around the country, thinking about the things that are important. And, you know, even just things like, we had to lobby the government, and we won, to make sure that people with serious mental illness were in the early cohorts for the vaccine. People with serious mental illness often die 20 years before everybody else, um, and that is a global fact, but a fact in a country that has universal healthcare is one that shouldn't be happening.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Sarah HughesYep.
Al ElliottAnd as part of our series of amazing guests, we have an incredible one for you today. I think we have talked— we've talked a lot about mental health, but there's a reason, because it is really, really quite important, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottGood. Well, now we've got that. There you go. There's the definitive answer from a business psychologist. Yes, it is important. For those of you who aren't in the UK, you may not have heard of MIND. It's a large, very large organisation in the UK. Don't worry, there's plenty of stuff for you because there's going to be something similar to you, to Mind in your country. But also, the problems, I think, are they span countries, continents. No matter where you are in the world, it's going to be the similar kind of issues.
Leanne ElliottYeah, mental health is a human condition, isn't it? None of us are immune to it or immune to adverse mental health challenges. Um, so yeah, it impacts everybody. And the great thing about Mind is they have loads of really great online resources as well that you can access wherever you are in the world. So do check it out.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottSo yes, we are talking today to Dr. Sarah Hughes. She is joining us. She is the Chief Executive of MIND, a leading mental health campaigning organization in the UK. With a career spanning over 35 years in mental health, Sarah brings a wealth of experience and insight to our discussion. She has been at the helm of MIND for over a year now, celebrating her 1-year anniversary just a few weeks ago. Before her current role, Sarah has dedicated 2 decades to leadership positions across various mental health charities, profoundly impacting the sector. As a trained social worker, her journey in mental health advocacy and support is not just professional, but a personal commitment to advancing mental health conversations and policies. Today, she shares her journey, the evolution of mental health perceptions, and the challenges and triumphs of advocating for better mental healthcare and support systems. Join us as we delve into an enlightening conversation with Sarah, exploring the depths of mental health advocacy and the impact, the wonderful impactful work Mind is doing across the nation. Let's meet Sarah.
Sarah HughesI'm Sarah and I'm Chief Executive of Mind at the moment, and I've been Chief Exec for a year. In fact, I celebrated my one-year anniversary last week. Um, but I've worked in mental health for 35 years, and very proudly so, and I'm a trained social worker Uh, I've been a chief exec for 20 years now in, um, 3, 4, actually 5 mental health charities.
Al ElliottSo as mentioned before, for those of you not in the UK, let's just get, get right into the nitty-gritty of what Mind actually does.
Sarah HughesYeah, so Mind is a mental health campaigning organisation. I think people will know us primarily for that. We have, I guess, led the nation's evolution around mental health for about a decade, although we're, we're 75 years old. Maybe, maybe 80 years old now. Um, and we've got, uh, 108 local Minds across the country that deliver services, and we've got 170 very famous charity shops as well. So we do a huge amount. We fundraise for mental health, we campaign, we influence policy decisions. So, you know, it's us that kind of get mental health, uh, additional funding. You know, we work really hard with our partners to negotiate all of that. So we've got our fingers in all of the mental health pies.
Leanne ElliottI'm sure you've seen that mental health is much more at the forefront of the conversation these days. Years ago, mental health was something you would never really talk about publicly, let alone with your boss. But thanks to Sarah and organisations like MIND, the perception has changed quite significantly.
Sarah HughesI have worked in mental health for 35 years, and it's true to say that when I first started, you know, there was no way we could talk about mental health in, in the way that we do now. There was no conversations between friends, there weren't conversations in families, there certainly wasn't conversations in workplaces. And even those of us who worked in mental health, you know, you couldn't really tell people because, you know, there was a sort of almost disdain and, and weird reaction. So to be, you know, 35 years later in an organization that has really changed the conversation. It's quite an extraordinary thing that we're talking about it in schools, we're talking about it in pubs, in barbers, in workplaces. You know, that's absolutely true. What I would say though is, um, whilst our literacy has definitely improved, would I hand on my heart say people experiencing serious mental illness would say, you know, we're getting the best services ever, we, we're getting access when we need it, all of those things? I think some people would say yes, but I think there'd be a lot of people that would say no. And so the job is nowhere near done. Progress, yes, but we're not anywhere near where we need to be. It's been probably the most worrying 5 years. You know, there's no doubt about it. We've actually had quite a long time of global volatility, of financial stress and pressure. You know, before the pandemic, we had austerity, you know, so all of these things have eroded mental health. And so what we know is that there is an increase in prevalence, um, there is an increase in people seeking help for their mental health. I always have to be really careful though, and, and this is some of the issues around language and how we think about things now, um, that I don't want to pathologize the nation, you know. So we're not all mentally ill, you know, we've all got mental health But we're not all mentally ill. There is a spectrum that, you know, some of us travel up and down. Some of us who experience very serious mental illness exist in a different world often from everybody else because of their experiences so different. So we often merge the two together, mental health and mental illness, and, and that often can leave people with mental illness aside. So whilst I acknowledge that the prevalence has increased, we've also got to understand that within that group of people that are experiencing, um, deterioration in their mental health, that there will be people that will be worse off than others even within that group.
Al ElliottJust as a quick note, if you are watching on YouTube, then, um, unfortunately our technology let us down, so we've only got half of Sarah's video. But don't worry, we've got all the audio. So you— if you do see just a lovely picture of Sarah, it's because we didn't quite capture that audio. Anyway, as a busy leader, it is hard to keep up with the changes in public perception. So Dr.
Sarah HughesSarah pointed out that there are still serious misconceptions about mental There's still a huge lack of understanding about what the experience of serious mental illness is. So for those people who are being sectioned under the Mental Health Act, for those people who are in and out of psychiatric hospitals, those people who are experiencing community care, who are in supported housing, and I do often worry that, that the conversation tends to move towards a more, um, sort of mild to moderate discussion around mental health. And I think that actually what I understand from our feedback that we get from the public is that they're now ready to understand the whole spectrum of mental health. And actually, the experience that people with more serious mental illness have is often the most difficult in terms of inequality, in terms of poor outcomes, and so on. And actually, when we've started talking about that more publicly, people have been astonished and outraged, and, and that's what we need. That's what we need people to be.
Leanne ElliottOne of the biggest challenges recently is to get the government to acknowledge that mental health needs to be prioritized. The Mental Health Act in the UK was originally created over 40 years ago to determine what should happen if someone exhibits signs of deteriorating mental health. It is full of recommendations around sectioning, and Sarah and her colleagues are determined to get this So it becomes more about helping those with poor mental health than detaining them.
Sarah HughesYou know, quite a lot of the mental illness that we see being experienced by communities across the country are caused by things that we could prevent. So poverty, racism, discrimination, um, poor education, bullying, domestic violence, bad housing— all of these things could be within our gift to solve. And so from my perspective, it's about saying, you know, well, well, why aren't we preventing mental illness when we know the things that could help make a difference? Well, funding for services isn't at the level that it should be. You know, there is just not— we haven't achieved parity of esteem, which is this notion of equity between physical and mental health. We haven't got there. And we know that things like psychiatric hospital You know, they're not in a— you know, the establishment, the environment is not good enough. You know, if you're somebody in mental health crisis and being sectioned under the Mental Health Act and you get taken into an inpatient ward, often those environments are nowhere near conducive enough to good mental health or recovery. So, you know, I think that that's where we need to be prioritising our attention. We need to be preventing the mental illness that we know is causing caused by social factors. We need to be enabling people to access the support when they need it, and we need them to get the right care at the right time from the right people. And I think all of those things need to happen in concert with each other, because sometimes we get a bit of the system right but not the rest of the system. So I'll give you an example. If you're in a psychiatric ward and you become, you know, you recover while you're on that psychiatric wards, but you want to be discharged, um, to a, you know, new environment or supported living, and there is not enough accommodation out there, you end up sitting on the ward for a lot longer than you need to.
Leanne ElliottIt's absurd to think that there are still laws around mental health and mental health support that were created 40 years ago. The world was a very different place 40 years ago. Um, so yeah, it's, it's crazy that is even time that needs to be spent by MIND and Sarah and her team to update those, those laws. It seems, it seems like in any other industry or sector or area that wouldn't be tolerated.
Al ElliottYeah, totally agree. I mean, I think to be honest, the conversation's changed over the last 40 months, let alone the last 40 years. So yes, we definitely and desperately need some new legislation surrounding this so that it can actually support rather than, like we said For detain or deal with people who, God, God knows what we did 40 years ago. I'm pretty sure that was electric shock sort of, um, era. Well, maybe not quite. Maybe, maybe I'm just thinking of a Milgram experiment. Now, this all might sound like a nice to have and something that needs to be done, but in actual fact, it's costing us business owners actually quite a lot of money. So even if you can't quite get your head around why it's so important, which I understand, this is a journey for all of us to understand this. It's important to understand that it's actually costing you cash every single month, and it will continue to cost you money unless you actually do something about it.
Sarah HughesSo for the— for instance, in the workplace, uh, the cost of mental illness is around £56 billion a year. So the economic case is very strong. Uh, it's very strong in terms of if we don't invest in prevention and people, you know, people find out often if they have mental illness or they're going to experience mental illness before the age of 25. So as a result of that, um, you know, we, we know that if we could invest early, uh, get people into services and support when they need it, we can get them back into thriving lives. So again, it's about, you know, then people can become part of their communities. We can see relationships and the economy blooming. You know, it means everything. And the idea that, that physical and mental health are not equally important is something that I've never understood personally. You know, for me, I've always— it's always made sense to me that they're, they're inextricably linked. But we do so much in terms of our policy and our funding decisions that separates them off. And as a result of that, we are disadvantaging the nation's mental and physical health. People with serious mental illness often die 20 years before everybody else, um, and that is a global fact. But a fact in a country that has universal healthcare is one that shouldn't be happening.
Leanne ElliottSome of the more progressive and perhaps braver leaders are starting to share their own experiences with mental health, but there's still some way to go. I asked Sarah Why more leaders don't share their personal experiences?
Sarah HughesI think so. I think it's very rare that people haven't had any. So, and, and I say that because it's not just about themselves. It could be in their families or, you know, workplaces, whatever. I, I think we've all got that experience. I think it's, I think it's fear. I think it's fear about disclosing. We still carry a lot of shame about being ill. Or, uh, there is still a stigma attached. No matter how well we talk about it in society, we are still vulnerable and I think open to people misunderstanding and so on. And so I think I understand the fear, and I see more and more leaders speak about it all the time, both inside mental health and across the charity sector. I mean, you know, a friend of mine, Karen Bradshaw, who's Chief Executive of the Charity Finance Group, recently wrote a blog about saying, you know, I've just taken some time out because my mental health was bad. And, you know, I think that that is hugely— it's still a brave thing to do. And until it becomes a natural thing to do, and we don't have to be so brave, I think more people will do it. But until then, it's still a bit scary.
Al ElliottIn a moment, Sarah is going to share her own experiences of mental health. But before that, I have to bring up those pesky Gen Zers. Once again, it feels like they're the ones who are stirring this all up. Now, is this mental health just something the younger generations care about, or is it more of a broader conversation?
Sarah HughesNo, and it's funny actually because I've got, I've, I've got my own Gen Zer, I've got my own kid, and, um, we, you know, we have these discussions all the time and, uh, it's really, really interesting. And some of it is this kind of generational tension between expectations of each other, expectations in the workplace, and all these things are really evolving. And we haven't got the language right. I mean, and the concept of being woke or not, being a snowflake or not, all of these terms are a way of dividing us. Because actually, you know, I get this sense from you as well, that actually, being woke is a good thing because actually, essentially, it means you know stuff and you're compassionate. That's what I think it means. Um, but of course, this— it is weaponized. And so all of this language, I think we've got to work hard, certainly as a sector, as a leader, as a human being just out in the world, to not collude with it. Um, and just to kind of try and enter into discussion Why are there differences between us? Rather than, you're right and I'm wrong. This is an evolution. We're all learning. And I think, yeah, this war of words, this culture war around snowflakery is, I think, it's a red herring. I think it takes us away from actually focusing on what the issues are, which is social injustice. You know, that's actually what we're talking about, you know, not whether people care about the social injustice or not.
Al ElliottNow, hold on a minute. Sarah just used the term social injustice, and I hadn't heard that term before, so I wanted to find out a bit more about what that actually meant.
Sarah HughesWell, it's such a great question actually, because almost all of the corporate organisations that I've— we've worked with over the years have very much had this kind of creeping interest in the social justice agenda, which often is couched in equality and diversity and inclusion. But actually, what we're talking about is fairness, is dignity, respect, equity. I just think people are ready for a bit more nuance. I think it's very difficult, you know, the social media, if you were just having conversations on social media, then it would feel very divisive. But actually, when you're talking to people in communities, in businesses, that's what people want. People want to live thriving lives. And I think that when we're saying, well, that's great, but you know that many people are just about surviving, and they're just about surviving because they're living in poverty, or, you know, they're experiencing racism and discrimination, that's you know, exploding their mental health and causing all sorts of other consequences on their families, on their physical health. Uh, I think people, I think people care about that.
Leanne ElliottOne of the biggest challenges that the younger generations have is that every problem in the world is documented on social media. That means they are bombarded with bad news all day long.
Sarah HughesSo how can they stay abreast of So firstly, I think that there is something about staying informed in the— from the right places. So I think part of, part of what I want people to do, especially young people, is create— for them to curate their input, you know, their social media feeds, so that they're getting good information about stuff. Because I think just this constant deluge of information can be very overwhelming. And I think that's a really good point. Overwhelming, and getting accurate information about things can be very difficult to do. I think that we have to help our young people, you know, because even though I was a staunch activist from a very young age, I didn't know half of what was going on in the world. But our young people know it all, and they're expected to care about it all. And I think we have to enable young people to find some sanctuary away from distress. And that is very difficult to do because we all want what's happening in the world to stop and, you know, all the bad stuff to stop. But I, I think that, you know, we need to enable our young people to self-care, to say, okay, you know, there, there is this that I'm going to focus on. But then there is the other thing that I think is very important Um, is actually to get involved in something. So, so it's, it's a kind of not the antithesis of me saying curate your feed and manage your self-care. It's an extension of that, really, because often engaging in campaigning or engaging with a community that is working on a project to look at X, Y, or Y is incredibly powerful and really good for your mental health. Because effectively, we're social beings. So being with other people, even for those people who are introverts or who say they like being at home, we're effectively social beings. That being with people on things that you care about, that things that you can do together, is, is a huge, huge mitigator of mental illness.
Al ElliottOne of the coolest things about Sarah is that she's not some stuffy suit in a boardroom pontificating about how things should be. She's not only worked in mental health and the care sector for decades, but she's very open about her own mental health struggles.
Sarah HughesWell, it's funny actually because, um, I, I— mental health is my life's work, and the reason being is because primarily I came from a family where, you know, people that I loved experienced mental illness. As I got older, I experienced my own mental illness. I still do at various points in my life. And so I know, I know deeply, uh, how poor mental health can just— it's like a nuclear bomb into families. It can be a nuclear bomb into your lives. It— but it can also bring great joy, empathy, compassion, knowledge, wisdom. And so with all of that together, I just felt like it was a natural place for me to be. And, uh, I've always worked in charities, and the reason why, again, is because I feel like it's closer to communities, it's closer to, to where people live and where it makes the most difference. And I guess going into senior leadership, I realized quite early on that there's probably not many people like me in leadership positions that, um, hold their own lived experience so, um, openly and, and maybe at the heart of their decision-making. So I thought I'd give it a go, and ever since I've felt, um, deeply committed. And even in the small wins, you know, I remember for instance during the pandemic, a group of charity leaders, we're sitting around and we're, you know, we're talking in our respective homes around the country thinking about the things that are important. And, you know, even just things like we had to lobby the government and we won to make sure that people with serious mental illness were in the early cohorts for the vaccine. And, you know, just knowing that we had done that, you know, and that thing wouldn't have happened if we didn't do that bit of campaigning. So we know that in that act, in that kind of you know, um, prioritising people's needs that we're able to make a difference. And, um, it's those things that drive me and, and, um, our local Minds and what we're doing and what we're seeing, the change we're making. It's all, it's all that counts, really.
Leanne ElliottNavigating the world of leadership as a woman brings its unique challenges and opportunities, something Dr. Sarah Hughes knows all too well. She shares her personal experiences of being a woman in a leadership position, the evolution of workplace norms, and the ongoing quest for true diversity and inclusion in the charity sector.
Sarah HughesBut I also remember what I was like when I entered the workplace and the amount of raised eyebrows that I would get around a table, you know, the amount of times that I was told off for not wearing a suit, the amount of times I told off for, you know, having a tattoo or not talking properly or all of these kind of things, you know. And I just think so, so I resist as much of that as possible, uh, in terms of how I am now as, as the boss. Um, but I also recognize that, you know, it's not— it's actually not that easy, you know. We don't— you can't underestimate that generational transition. And I think it's only through having honest conversations and talking it through that, you know, that you can kind of get past the tension. So we have a lot of women leaders in the charity sector, but there are more chief executives that are called— I think it's David in the UK— than there are women. And I, I think that's true. I don't think we have a lot of diverse women in the charity sector. So, you know, um, uh, Black women leaders, disabled women leaders— I think, I, I think we're quite far away from that. But it's still heavily dominated, you know, in terms of, you know, funding institutions, who we, uh, talk to in terms of government, um, corporates, etc. So yes, it is. I'm very much of in mind that we all work in kind of white supremacist sort of, uh, frameworks which include very traditional views of men and women and leadership and the way we talk to each other and, you know, how we communicate on all sorts of different things. And so as a result of that, um, we're all operating in a way that challenges the idea of diversity and leadership. And, and we, we haven't dismantled it yet. Uh, we still bump up against it. So I recently spoke about being a working-class leader, and it's still a thing. It, it just is. And for us to say that it isn't is just not— it's not true. I do think the language of feminism gets, um, locked into a different place that I I don't really understand or try and engage in too much. You know, where I'm at is my leadership is about inclusion, is about understanding the environment in which we operate and responding accordingly.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually We have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Sarah HughesIt is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about the latest music. want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Sarah HughesKeep that in.
Al ElliottSarah's ability to eloquently articulate ideas and insistence on being part of the conversation has sometimes earned her the description of being an annoying woman, usually by white middle-aged men. Instead of getting upset about this, Sarah wears the annoying woman badge with pride. It's even on her Twitter profile.
Sarah HughesWell, I mean, it was in response— I think, was it Donald Trump who called somebody an annoying woman, or somebody here? No, it was one of the politicians here. Anyway, there was a time when women who spoke out were being called annoying. And I think, I think pretty much we still are called annoying. And I take pride in my sometimes being an annoying woman, partly because that social justice piece is very important to me as a human being. I feel deeply motivated by what I see happening in the world, what I experience myself. And, um, so yeah, sometimes I think I'm provocative. I say things sometimes I probably shouldn't say. Um, I've got a bit better at that as I've got older, but, um, still sometimes creeps out. And, you know, I mean, and this is the thing, women, when you're considered difficult, it's a really interesting way of closing you down. And I think by owning the fact that, yes, we're difficult and disruptive, Because there's a necessity, and we're not— I'm not going to allow that view to undermine the point that I'm making as a woman. And so yeah, I love— I've got a lot of annoying women friends, and I think they're the best type.
Al ElliottOkay, so you know by now it's my job is to take all this stuff and make it practical for the business owner. So how can MIND help you and your business?
Sarah HughesSo we at MIND, We've got the mental health at work commitments that we do in partnership with a lot of corporates. We run our mental health index so that people can sort of assess where they are in terms of, you know, whether they deliver on the mental health agenda or not. I think that it's, it's joining up with communities. So joining up with, you know, there are many workplace wellbeing networks. So Mad Wellbeing being one of them. There are many others. There is Mind. Forward Alliance, there is Mental Health First Aid, there is what we do, and, and again, and there are others. And I think corporates being part of that, uh, I think is a start. Many corporate organizations are quite a long way on their journey, and I think that we should applaud some of our corporate partners for the progress that they've made. And I don't think we should underestimate that because I've, I've seen astonishing progress in, you know, corporate corporate world in a way that, you know, even some of our charity organizations would not have made. Um, so I think it's being part of those networks, it's facing up to the truth of what goes on in your organizations, it's about, you know, understanding what your workforce needs and what they're saying. And I think this is becoming custom and practice, I think, in lots of places, and I wouldn't say it's a job done. Um, but, but I, I think I've seen more progress than, than I would have thought. I think there are organizations like John Lewis. I think that, you know, it's very famous for the support that they provide for their organizations. I think that, um, Unilever as well, another organization very well known for all of the support that they deliver within their organization. So I think there are good examples and Um, and, you know, we can definitely share more of those. And we have award systems, and again, you know, many awards are offered to organizations. You can see it all the time in different places. And I think this is, this is a good thing. This is progress. Uh, it's not always performative, and I think sometimes people worry about that, but, um, you know, small steps can lead to big strides.
Leanne ElliottA lot of business owners we talked to are frustrated about the number of people who don't engage with their EAPs or employee assistance programs. An employee assistance program, if you haven't heard of it, is a workplace benefit program designed usually to provide confidential support and resources to employees facing personal or work-related challenges. So it can offer things like counseling, mental health support, legal assistance, financial counseling, and referrals to other professional services organizations. Some EAPs also include things like shopping vouchers, gym membership, online GP appointments, that type of things. EAPs can be really valuable for a number of reasons. Firstly, they do provide that confidential support. They encourage employees to seek assistance without that fear of judgment or negative repercussions, and this confidentiality fosters early intervention, so it helps employees address issues before they escalate to a really serious level. So by offering access to counseling and support services, EAPs can improve mental health, reduce stress, and help employees cope with personal and work-related challenges. This in turn, of course, as you well know by now, listener, is going to lead to increased productivity, increased job satisfaction, and overall well-being among employees. It also sounds like really good stuff, right? Well, it is. But as we learned last week speaking to Bruce Daisley, an emphasis on individual-level interventions can cause more damage than good if an employee is operating in a toxic work environment. As Bruce, Bruce explained, it could be seen as victim blaming. So this could be one of the reasons that uptakes in EAPs are typically low. But as Dr. Sarah explains, there may be other factors at play.
Sarah HughesPartly, um, EAP services are really great, but often people will not feel like it's personalized enough to them. So I think sometimes that's the struggle with EAP, that it feels a little bit kind of general and, you know, not personal, etc. So I think that's some of the struggle. I think sometimes EAPs are not always culturally, um, appropriate, or they're not, you know, effective for people with neurodiversity. So sometimes it's about the quality of the offer, and, and that's not a denigration on EAP at all because I think it's very good practice to have one. But I think that sometimes, you know, um, we're all doing it at scale that we forget actually it's individuals that are accessing those support systems and individuals have individual needs. So, so there's that. I also think we can't underestimate stigma. So again, whilst I would say a lot of progress has been made, I still think there are a huge number of people who would say, I am no way near ready to disclose my mental illness in the workplace. Um, I don't feel safe to do that. So I think there's a combination of factors about why people don't access support. But I would urge organisations not to stop. What I would urge organisations to do is examine the offer and see if it's something else. And also, I think, and this is something, you know, ultimately, you can provide a lot of wellbeing support, but if people are still being overworked or underpaid, um, you know, wellbeing support is not going to offset those. So Sometimes the decision is, you know, can I pay my workforce a bit of a better wage? Or do I invest in EAP? I think those things are for you to discuss with your workforce, especially if you're an SME. You can't just drop in a wellbeing programme into a business and hope for the best. Because it's, it's about everything else. It's essentially about the culture. It's about people ability to disclose. It's about the quality of the offer of, you know, EAP and all of those sorts of things. It's fundamentally if people feel like they've got good work, that they're in a fair environment, that they've got good line management. Those are the things that I think I have seen make the biggest difference in wellbeing. So getting the basics right, I think above Everything else has to be the priority. I think wellness initiatives do work, and they work for people's holistic health. The reality is, is that if you're considering wellness as a response to emerging mental illness, then that's not the right thing. And so I think it's about workplaces really understanding the difference between mental health and then when people become ill. So I think it's about growing your understanding and moving that literacy into a really much more sophisticated approach to supporting people's mental and physical health in the workplace. So wellness is important. I agree, though, that it's only part of the pie that will make the tangible differences to people's working lives.
Al ElliottThere's a lot of EAPs out there to choose from. Our personal favorite is Pirks, P-I-R-K-S. Uh, run by the amazing Stella Smith. Uh, so such good value, such, such amazing things you get from it. Something we use here, even though there's only 2 of us, we use here. And if anyone asks about any EAP, then we always recommend to go and look up Stella Smith. So look in the show notes, P-I-R-K-X. Not being paid to say that, man.
Leanne ElliottIf we did—
Al Elliottyeah, actually, Stella, if you're listening, you need to pay us to say that.
Leanne ElliottMIND is an incredible organization, and Dr. Dr. Sarah Hughes is an amazing woman. If you want to get involved with MIND, then Sarah has a few ideas of where to start.
Sarah HughesSo we've got, uh, you can go to our pages, our web pages, and there's a whole ream of things. You can be an ambassador, you can be a fundraiser, you can be a campaigner, you can be one of our facilitators, you can join some of our volunteer programs, you volunteer in our shops. Um, you know, you can do all sorts of things. You can help us make sure that your workplace gets the, you know, mental health at work commitments. You know, there are all sorts of things that people can do. It's not just all about donating a fiver. You know, there are— although people donating a fiver is very, very welcome. But, you know, it's all about spreading the word of Mind, uh, of that piece about, you know, we can prevent some of the mental illness that we're seeing, and it's not impossible to provide people with good care. And, uh, you know, we want people to be sharing that message, get behind the movement, campaign, lobby their MP, tell their local, you know, commissioning group that fund all of the healthcare, you know, we want them to get involved, have their say, fight for mental health.
Al ElliottWell, there you have it. I hope you have a better understanding of what MIND is and the work they do, but also a better understanding of Dr. Sarah Hughes. Definitely go and check out her LinkedIn. She's very prolific— proliferous? What's the word when you write a lot? Proliferous writer. There you go. She's very prolific on LinkedIn. Um, so definitely go and check that out. And she's also done lots of amazing other interviews on other podcasts.
Leanne ElliottYou've thrown out some vocab today, Al. I don't think I missed pontification before.
Al ElliottPontification.
Leanne ElliottI thought I heard that.
Al ElliottThat's to make a bridge out of something. Pontification.
Leanne ElliottWhat did I say?
Al ElliottPontification. I don't know what pontification is.
Leanne ElliottWhat is it?
Al ElliottPontification.
Leanne ElliottIt sounds exactly the same. You're saying the same word.
Al ElliottI'm saying it right. Say it again.
Sarah HughesPontification.
Al ElliottPontification.
Leanne ElliottWhat did I say?
Al ElliottPontification.
Leanne ElliottI didn't. I said pontification.
Al ElliottYou're putting the emphasis on the wrong bit of the word. Anyway, check out the show notes for links to Dr.
Leanne ElliottSarah's profiles and to find out more Yes, and before we go, let's just remind ourselves of the importance of talking about all this stuff.
Sarah HughesYou know, without doubt, the difference that we've made to society as a whole mental health community, which is effectively built on the shoulders of people with lived experience, um, that, you know, we've spoken about mental health and we've increased the conversation, but now we really need to help people get to the next stage and not get locked into this kind of, you know, idea that, that mental health is just this and forget about the people with more serious, enduring, life-threatening conditions.
Leanne ElliottThank you to our guest today, the incredible Dr. Sarah Hughes, Chief Executive of MIND. Thank you for listening. If you are enjoying the show, get in touch. You'll find us on LinkedIn. Leave us a review, that's always nice. Um, or you can call Al directly on 07703—
Sarah HughesWhoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, do not call me.
Al ElliottI tell you what, even if you message me on LinkedIn, then, then I won't answer. Leanne was horrified the other day because she opened my LinkedIn, she logged into my LinkedIn and saw there was about 60 new connection requests. So if you have sent a connection request to me, I'm sorry, it's nothing to do with you. I'm just grumpy and I just, I just, I just like not talking to anyone, which is not great seeing as I'm the sales and Content creator. I type, not talk. There you go. There's a web— there's a domain for you. Type, not talk. Anyway, so we will see you next week for another amazing guest. As Leanne said, do get onto LinkedIn and search for Truth, Lies and Work because you'll find that there is a— there's a page there that Leanne is very active on. And what's more important is it's just— it's your way to talk to us. There isn't really a way unless you use Spotify, and I don't know how to use that Q&A thing, but there's no real way for you to talk back to us. And we really want Your feedback. So, um, if you've enjoyed it, if you've hated it, if you think that we're rubbish, if you think that we sound a bit sexier now since post-COVID and we've both got a bit of a deeper voice, so you really want to just get some ASMR going, then get onto LinkedIn, let us know what you think, because it's really, really important to us. It's lovely us recording this, but we do record it just to a camera, so we don't get that two-way interaction. So it'd be really, really good. What are you doing there, Leigh?
Leanne ElliottASMR.
Al ElliottBDSM, I think BDSM is the word. Yes. So next time you're in a meeting, use the word BDSM. That's what it means. Yes.
Leanne ElliottNext week, who've we got on the show next week, Al?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Sarah HughesI've forgotten.
Al ElliottOh man, I knew, I knew you're gonna ask it. I should have checked. We've got an amazing guest on next week. Let's leave it at that. It's a surprise for everyone, including us.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottAnd the ongoing quest for true diversity and inclusivity in the charity sector. I couldn't get that out, sorry.
Al ElliottThat's good. I mean, do it again if you want, but—
Leanne ElliottInclusivity. Struggle with that word.
Al ElliottStruggle with a lot of words, Lee. Like, no thanks, I don't want another glass of wine.