Episode 90 · 16 April 2024 · 33:52

90: Red Rooster's free childcare, changing careers at 40, and sending embarrassing emails - This Week In Work -16th April 2024

0:000:00

Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.

Chapters & timestamps

Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.

Red Rooster's free childcare scheme
news roundup#childcare #employee-benefits #customer-insight
Is McKinsey actually a good place to work?
news roundup#mckinsey #consulting #work-culture
The death of the 'chairman'
news roundup#leadership #corporate-governance #job-titles
60 Second Highlights: Nora Burns' new podcast & Thursday's guest
news roundup#podcast #highlights #guest
Workplace Clinic: 'I found the perfect candidate. Do I need to keep looking?'
news roundup#hiring #recruitment #candidate-selection
Workplace Clinic: 'Is 40 too old to change careers?'
news roundup#career-change #ageism #reddit
Workplace Clinic: 'I sent an embarrassing email to the CEO'
news roundup#email-etiquette #mistakes #communication

Show notes

Red Rooster's Free Childcare, Changing Careers at 40 & Sending Embarrassing Emails

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why Red Rooster Coffee's free childcare scheme is a huge flex (and a smart retention play), whether McKinsey is actually a good place to work, and why UK companies are finally ditching the word "chairman." Plus, in The Workplace Clinic: should you keep interviewing after finding the perfect candidate, is 40 too old to change careers, and what do you do when you accidentally send an embarrassing email?

🔥 News Roundup

1. Red Rooster Coffee is offering free childcare — and it's a massive flex The US coffee chain is covering childcare costs for its workers, closing a gap that most employers won't touch. Leanne points out that Sweden and Denmark have done this for years — so why does it feel radical in the US? Beyond the obvious human benefit, it's a smart retention play that fosters community and loyalty. Al's take: there's a huge opportunity here for businesses willing to think differently about benefits. Source →

2. Is McKinsey actually a good place to work? A friend of the show who worked at McKinsey shares his insider perspective — and it's not all PowerPoint decks and jet-setting. The culture is intense, the hours are brutal, and the cost-cutting mentality that McKinsey sells to clients apparently applies internally too. Leanne worries about the culture that creates: competitive, transactional, and potentially quite backstabbing. Source →

3. The death of the "chairman" The Times reports that the UK's biggest companies are phasing out the term "chairman" in favour of the more inclusive "chair." Leanne thinks it's a step forward but worries about surface-level change. Al, predictably, has thoughts on the jargon — and a very specific theory about who actually objects to the word "chair." Let's just say it involves gammons. Source →

🎧 60 Second Highlights

Nora Burns — one of the show's favourite guests — has launched her own podcast, Stories from the Break Room. Hear her brilliant Undercover Candidate episode and welcome her to the podcasting community.
Last Thursday's episode — if you missed it, Al and Leanne had Ben from CharlieHR on. Yes, that Ben. The one with the very specific pop culture references.
This Thursday — Football's Super Agent, Jon Smith, joins the show. He was Diego Maradona's former agent and has some incredible stories about the beautiful game's most complicated genius.

More from Nora Burns: Stories from the Break Room Podcast

💬 The Workplace Clinic

Three listener questions, tackled live:

1. "I found the perfect candidate. Do I need to keep looking?" Leanne's advice: decide how long you'll advertise a role before you start the process — and see it through. Cutting corners to grab the first good candidate can come back to bite you. The process exists for a reason.

2. "Is 40 too old to change careers?" First question: are you bored, or are you unfulfilled? They're very different problems. If it's the latter, Leanne recommends Dr Audrey Tang's VITALS exercise — values, interests, temperament, around, lifestyle, strengths — to figure out what you actually need before you leap. Al, now 46, shares his own experience of changing direction.

3. "I sent an embarrassing email to the CEO" We've all been there. Leanne feels sick for the sender. Al once subscribed to a competitor's newsletter by accident. The advice? Own it, apologise briefly, and don't spiral. And if there's something actionable in the email, use it — turn embarrassment into opportunity.

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Resources & Further Reading

Red Rooster's childcare scheme: wsj.com
The debate about chair vs chairman: thetimes.co.uk
Dr Audrey Tang's VITALS exercise: youtube.com
Stories from the Break Room, with Nora Burns: spotify.com

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more. Nice.

Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science and psychology of work.

Al ElliottYeah. Now, this is the Tuesday edition of the Truth, Lies and Work pod, where we bring you the latest news in the world of work. We chat about great articles and podcasts we found this week, and we bring you the ever-popular weekly work surgery. That's our test name for it. Coming back with— we're going to— we'll whiteboard it like we said. And this is basically where we ask Leanne to load— in case you don't know who Leanne is, she just told you, business psychologist. But she's going to— we ask her a load of questions and she's going to answer all your questions about the workplace.

Leanne ElliottYeah. So if this is your first time, then welcome. There is a sister episode to this on a Thursday where we feature pretty high-profile guests actually, who are experts in the workplace. So I guess between Tuesdays and Thursdays, between us and them, surely there's no reason not to hit subscribe.

Al ElliottLeanne, it's your favourite time of the week. It's the news roundup.

Leanne ElliottCue the jingle. So what you got, Lee? An article caught my eye in the Wall Street Journal this week.

Al ElliottFancy.

Leanne ElliottI know, that's just how I roll. Um, about Red Rooster Coffee. It's a coffee chain out in America, and they have introduced what is being called a game changer of an employee benefit— highly subsidized on-site childcare. Now apparently they've done this to reduce turnover in what is typically a very high turnover industry. And attract more talent, and they seem to be the latest in a growing trend. According to the article, 32% of US companies are now offering child support or support with childcare compared to 26% pre-pandemic. Now, the UK and the US— I don't know if you know this, Al— but are very famously lagging behind other countries when it comes to government-supported childcare. So for example, public spending on childcare in places like Sweden and Denmark is upwards of $15,000 per child, whereas the US and UK barely contribute $1,000 towards childcare of preschool children.

Al ElliottWow.

Leanne ElliottIt is a massive gap. I mean, I'm not— I just think it's interesting that, you know, Sweden, Denmark do this very successfully. And as we'll remember from a couple of weeks ago, both Sweden and Denmark were in the top 5 in the happiest places in the world to live. Um, other organizations that are offering childcare as an employee benefit include Patagonia— probably no surprise with that brand— and Hotel chain Marriott. And interestingly, Al, you might remember that they were both listed in Fortune's Best Places to Work. Coincidence?

Al ElliottYes.

Leanne ElliottI doubt it. Um, I mean, I think this type of benefit is really wonderful because I think it fosters that community and connection with our work, which we know are key drivers of well-being. It enables people to bring their whole selves to work, which fosters belonging and engagement. It ensures that we retain top talent and skills if parents can return to work. It will help reduce the gender pay gap. It will get more people into work. It will boost the economy. It will even help leaders, I think, get people back in the office if that's really what they want. I could go on about the benefits, and I don't even have children, but this to me seems like a no-brainer. And I wonder whether there are, or there is maybe an opportunity for smaller businesses, perhaps in the same area, to come together and offer this type of subsidised childcare if the government continues to lag, um, or whether it would actually be a good idea for a startup, maybe a community-based business or an NFP. Thoughts?

Al ElliottYeah, I think immediately what sprung out to me was that yes, there's an opportunity here. Yes, there's a lot of people who want it. So I'm thinking go and buy a big transit van and go around and pick up all the children and throw them in the back and keep them there for the, for the workday. And then just charge everyone like a quid a day or something for that. Would that work?

Leanne ElliottThat sounds a bit, um, chitty chitty bang bang, that.

Al ElliottYeah, moving on, moving on. Uh, okay, so we're going to talk a little bit about McKinsey now. McKinsey's kind of a bit of a closed-door affair, um, but when you do hear from people who have been working there, they've said it's not always the best place to work. There is a guy called Ezra. Now I'm gonna see if I can get this right. Ezra Gershonok. Did I say that right?

Leanne ElliottYeah. I don't know, but it sounds good.

Al ElliottEzra, if you're listening, just drop us an email if I got that wrong.

Leanne ElliottGreat first name.

Al ElliottYeah, fabulous first name. One of our friends' children is called Ezra. Yeah. And so he worked for McKinsey, and although he doesn't regret his time there, he did have a really weird sort of, sort of ending to it. He came there from college and he found it obviously, as you'd expect, a very high-pressure environment, expectation of immediate results. Lots and lots of boring PowerPoint, et cetera, et cetera. However, McKinsey overhired during the pandemic and anticipated more work than actually materialised. And so as the demand dropped due to rising interest rates, increased automation, all the other stuff that's affected a lot of the Big 4, they started to get rid of people, but they don't really get rid of people the normal way. They almost like push you off or encourage you to leave rather than actually say, right, You aren't redundant. Ezra was saying that his circumstances were very, very strange because after he was unexpectedly removed from a project, um, he was, he was informally pushed to leave with hints that his performance was lacking. So he basically decided, well, I've had enough. If they want me out, then I'm gonna go. So he left and he did what most people who are ex-McKinsey did, do, which is go and start a business. So he started something called Ohana, which is a startup aimed at bridging the gap between short-term rental, uh, uh, platforms like Airbnb And long-term housing sites like Zillow.

Leanne ElliottWhere were you 5 years ago, Ezra?

Al ElliottNo, Ezra, we, we rent the way we moved around the world. We started doing a week on Booking.com, then we did a month in Airbnb, then we started doing 3 or 4 months in different countries, different places. That's difficult to do and very expensive through Airbnb, but it's too small to go and rent a place full-time. Now, Ohana has been really successful in New York particularly, and it's saving significant amounts of rent. With notable backers like Zillow's co-founder. Now, that guy, if you just Google Zillow, you'll go, oh, what else has he done? Oh, he's done this, he's done this, he's done this. McKinsey, I'm on the fence about whether it's a good grounding for a real-life business. I suppose it is because you learn how to deal with banks, deal with clients. Some, someone charging, you know, £250,000 is nothing to you. But at the same time, if you're going from there to a straight startup where it's just you and one other person, might not be the best thing. What do you think, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it's an interesting culture of work, and I think it will definitely help you develop skills that you can use in a small business or indeed another organisation. Uh, my beef is more around how McKinsey approached this. It seems a bit, a bit sly and a bit icky to me. Um, and I get it. I don't— well, I say I get it. Is it because you don't want to pay redundancy pay? You don't want to pay severance?

Al ElliottWell, if McKinsey's very famous for reducing costs, then, you know, they're very good about doing it themselves, I suppose.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I just worry about the type of culture that will create in the organisation. I imagine it'd be quite backhanded, quite, quite non-transparent. I think there'll be dishonesty, mistrust amongst colleagues and leaders. I think ultimately it could lead to people potentially disengaging. Um, I don't— I just don't like how McKinsey went about that. I think there's, there's more mature ways to do it, which I'd expect from a company that operates at that level. Um, so I agree, there's a bit of a mismatch there in terms of what they say they do and tell other people to do and how they actually operate. Um, but there you go, that's, that's management consulting for you. It is cutthroat, and, and that's, that's kind of the way it is, isn't it?

Al ElliottOkay, Lee, you got anything else for us?

Leanne ElliottYes, I read something about chairs this week.

Al ElliottChairs.

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottOkay, interesting.

Leanne ElliottNo, it was, it was an article in The Times this week about how the UK's biggest companies are phasing out the term chairman and replacing it with a gender-neutral chair. Sounds pretty sensible. Sounds like it wouldn't be much of a big deal, really. I mean, especially when you think about the big diversity challenges we've got, that would just be a nice little, little step in the right direction. Well, apparently not. Apparently not. So here's, here's, here's the summary. So basically this article says the last 5 years, more than half of the companies listed on the FTSE 100 have replaced chairman with chair, intention being a step towards gender neutrality, eliminating language that implies gender stereotypes and leadership. So basically that leadership roles are inherently male. But of course this shift isn't been— isn't— hasn't been uniform across sectors. Finance seems to be digging their heels in a little bit. We've got banks like Barclays, HSBC, and Standard Chartered still insisting that they use chairman. Uh, Lloyds is the only one flying the flag and has already transitioned to chair. And there has also been a mixed reaction about whether this change is any good at all. Um, some applauded it, um, others including the editors at The Times criticized it as, and I'll quote this, unnecessary jargon, and suggesting it's a cosmetic Rather than a substantive change.

Al ElliottCan I just say, unnecessary jargon? Are we not just reducing the word by half the number of letters?

Leanne ElliottYou know what I mean?

Al ElliottSo, it's the opposite of unnecessary jargon. Anyway, sorry, carry on.

Leanne ElliottAnd I think this is where I think it can get tiring a little bit. And I think we're— I mean, I know what you're saying. Is it a big enough change? No, of course it's not. But it does feel a bit like— it just feels a bit unnecessary in terms of the pushback that might just add some more tension to some already kind of polarized stances that we're seeing. I just think it's, oh, you know, when it comes to gender and equality and inclusion in general, can we not just celebrate here that by removing that gender-specific language, we're maybe laying some groundwork to alter perceptions at work? in the future. I mean, I think particularly when you look at this in terms of, of kind of social psychology research. So there was, um, a study that was reported by Canadian Medical Association. They basically researched, or they surveyed, about 4,000 people in the UK exploring gender in the workplace, and they found that only 5% of people expected a doctor to be a woman. And this dropped to 2% for people over age 55. And that's despite almost half of UK doctors being women. And it's just one example of so many different studies that show gender stereotypes persistently influencing public perception, even in children. I think it's as young as children as 6, this has been shown in. So, I think anything that's going to help to make steps towards, you know, diversifying the perception of people in leadership roles is good. And I also think as well, you know, it raises just a very practical question from organisations that are clinging on to chairmen. How do you advertise that job? Or how do you kind of, kind of promote votes for that job? Or do you know what I mean, in terms of nominations for that job? But I mean, it's not going to attract many women, is it? Um, so yeah, I get what people are saying. Of course it's not enough to solve gender equality at work. Of course it isn't. But it feels like an easy and hopefully widely acceptable contribution to the cause.

Al ElliottI wonder if there's maybe a slight It's not a defense in any way, but the person who delivers your milk in the UK is known not as a milkman, but a milkman. That's the way that I think. I just think milkman. Oh, they're gonna deliver the milk. Milkman. I don't think of it as milkman. And so it could be that perhaps people my age and upwards think of it as chairman rather than chair-man. So I think maybe there might be— we're certainly asking for a lot of change here from older people. We're talking about, what do they call them? Gammons? Big white—

Leanne ElliottGammons.

Al ElliottFat, rich, middle-class men with white, big red faces. Actually, I'm a bit worried that might— actually, I might fall into that. But, but yeah, so I think there's, there's the part of the people who go, I want to keep the man in it, and then there's a part that people just don't even think about it. And that's still not cool, but I'm not saying that it's necessarily willful. We need to keep the man in chairman.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, I also think, I think it'll be interesting as well if you're listening to this on, on Tuesday, tune in on Thursday with our guest who will be talking about how to negotiate the things that you know you can get first of all before you tackle the big stuff. I just think in terms of that negotiation for quality in the workplace, it seems like a fairly kind of meh easy place to start. Can we just drop the man? Can we just say chair? Yeah, you know, you know, I just wonder whether that's a good way to do it. Also, what makes me smile is I can't tell you how many times I have read through somebody's resume or LinkedIn profile And it'll be a man, and they are the chairman of diversity and inclusion at work, or the chairman of women in leadership. It's just like, dude, dude, you know, try better, try harder, try harder.

Al ElliottCouple of the little bits before we get on to our surgery. If you missed last Thursday's episode, we had Ben Branson-Gately, apparently no relation to Richard, um, the co-founder of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Or Stephen Branson.

Leanne ElliottStephen Gately.

Al ElliottWas he from Westlife?

Leanne ElliottNo, he like came runner-up in Pop Idol.

Al ElliottVery, very niche. If you do get these references, let us know. I think I did, I did the Tango advert from 1994 on the UK TV a couple of weeks ago. So yeah, if you do get them, let us know. Anyway, so Ben is the co-founder of Charlie HR. Charlie HR is a great platform for managing your transactional HR, but, and we're not here to, we're not being paid to tell you that, we just thought it was a great guest. But Ben is a second-time founder, and what he said about culture was quite revealing. So here's Ben talking a little bit about culture and what he's learned. You mentioned we started 2 businesses. Our first was an agency. We ran that for 5 years, and Charlie for 7 after that. I've always been very people-focused, but I've made a lot of mistakes when it comes to culture. And often those mistakes have been early on in my career, failing to Understand what culture the business needed. So, this is how I believe every single founder, every single business owner should think about culture, is they should start with what the business is trying to do, where we're trying to get to, right? What are our aims for the next couple of years? What culture do we need? If you are Goldman Sachs, that gives you your answer. If you are Monzo, that gives you your answer. If you're Charlie HR, that gives you your answer.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottWhat is the culture that we need? And then, how do we think about the group of people that are going to enable that culture, and the policies, and the processes, and the ways of working that are going to support that? Rather than, what culture do our people, you know, what culture do we want? Or, what would be a nice culture to have? What would be a good culture to have? Or, what would be a culture that we can write loads of fun content and blogs about? Culture should be a strategic tool. To help us achieve things. And so it should start with where are we trying to go, what are we trying to do.

Leanne ElliottAnd keeping on the podcast trend, one of our favorite guests, an all-around awesome human, Nora Burns, also known as The Undercover Candidate, has started a podcast.

Al ElliottShe has.

Leanne ElliottHey, welcome to the podcasting community, Nora. Um, if you want to hear Nora on our show, you can go back to episode 74. As I said, she's also known as The Undercover Candidate. Basically, she did a load of interviews undercover. She's an HR professional, um, and then just kind of reports back on, on all the dodgy practices that, that she, she exposed during that, um, during that experience. But yes, she has a new podcast called Stories from the Break Room. We will leave a link in the show notes. Al, can we play a little clip here? A little teaser? Suddenly, on this day, it occurred to me that here I was designing hiring practices and processes And I hadn't been a job candidate in over a decade. So I decided I'd go on a handful of interviews, chose a town near where I live, but not my city. I figured it'd be less likely I would be recognized in the lobby. And I decided to go on a handful of interviews. So I went on a half dozen interviews for a variety of positions from receptionist, office manager, accountant, And kind of see what was happening from the candidate's perspective and how that could make me better as a consultant in the hiring space. Quite frankly, I was a little shocked by what I experienced. So there you go, a little teaser from Nora's podcast. If you want to hear more relatable stories from the American workforce, more expert guest views and reactions, then check out her show. Go and subscribe. She is awesome. We will leave a link in the show notes.

Al ElliottComing up on this Thursday's episode is a guest which Leanne talked about a minute ago. We've been looking forward to interviewing for months. He's the guy who brought Northern Soul to the UK back in the '70s and '80s. He's behind the iconic New Order English football anthem. He's met Mother Teresa, negotiated with Mikhail Gorbachev and Putin, been kidnapped by Ukrainians. He's friends with politicians, English Premier League managers, and renowned for bringing American football to the UK and for a significant Fancy. Here's a little snippet of our upcoming guest, John Smith. It's interesting, you know, I walked in various rooms with him, corporate rooms, and people wouldn't know particularly who Maradona was.

Leanne ElliottAnd he was, what, 5 foot 1?

Al ElliottBut he would— he just had a persona, a charisma. I mean, I think God, maybe certain people are born, he sprinkles a bit of special dust on them as they leave and join this planet. And he had that in spades.

Leanne ElliottHe'd just be out there and He had that dynamic human being quality.

Al ElliottAnd then he had the talent, which was absolutely God-given. I mean, there's some great shots on YouTube of him doing keepy-uppy, you know, where you balance the football on your boot and you're bouncing up and down. And he's signing autographs while he's doing that.

Leanne ElliottI mean, just astonishing stuff.

Al ElliottAnd he was, he was 2 people.

Leanne ElliottI used to, I used to say this to him.

Al ElliottI said, you know, you are You're Diego and you're Maradona. You know, Maradona crosses the white line, you become the star.

Leanne ElliottBut you know, Diego as Diego, you're one of the sweetest, most lovely human beings that I've ever met.

Al ElliottHe was just fun. And actually very caring about where he came from, which was nothing. And he was, he was fabulous. And I still believe, and I'm biased, I still believe he was the greatest footballer of all time. After the break, we have the Weekly Work Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne and she answers them, obviously. See you in 60 seconds.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to fake their fandom. to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can balsamic vinegar make beer taste better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back, Leanne. Are you ready for the weekly workplace workout surgery?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottOkay. So question number 1, I found a perfect candidate. Do I need to keep looking? Now I'll give you the context of this so you can make— so you can decide whether it's the right thing to do. So this person said, I ran an advert for a role recently and the second person who applied was absolutely perfect. I immediately interviewed them and they ticked every box and can start in a week. I've since had a few other inquiries, but they don't seem as good on paper, so I've not even scheduled an interview. I feel like I found the perfect person. Can I stop looking now?

Leanne ElliottWhat you should do in your process is when you advertise a job, decide how long you're going to advertise it for. Best practice would say you don't look at any resumes or interview anybody until that job advert closes, or that initial time period closes, which should be also clearly stated on the job advert. Then you go through all your candidates, and if it just happens that the second person that sent their resume and that you subsequently interviewed was the best candidate, Cool. All lovely. Very nice. It sounds like you haven't done that. It sounds like you haven't put a timescale to it, and it sounds like, um, you haven't really thought about that ahead of time. I guess the issue is, is that potentially now you'll have people applying and expecting some kind of response, whether it be progressing their application, whether it be that initial stages, whether it be an interview, and that will never come. Which isn't great for candidate experience, let alone all the issues that could come up in terms of discrimination, potentially, depending on who the candidate is that you've chosen, other people that you've got applying. Are they actually the best person for the job? Then you've also got the consideration that you think this person is the best person for the job, but that's a pool of, what, 2 by the sounds of it, maybe 5 at this point. What if they join your organisation, turn out to not be very good? Um, and, and then leave your organization, and then you're reopening the job, uh, potentially to candidates that have already seen it, you've already rejected, or you've not engaged with. And that again is going to put them off potentially re-engaging with that advert, um, for the simple fact that they don't really trust it and it all seems a bit weird. I mean, at this point, I'm not sure what difference it makes. You've kind of messed it up. You kind of fallen at the first step, to be honest, in terms of how this should be done. If you are convinced, I guess at this point damage limitation, right? I would take the advert down from wherever it is. I would go back to each person that has applied to the job. Make sure if you have somebody who is pretty good and you would take to interview had it not been for this second person, or this person that you think is great, make sure that with those candidates you're going back and saying, at the moment the position is filled. We'd like to keep you on file for opportunities in the future should there be any. At least keeps the dialogue going with these candidates and keeps the door open if that superstar you found turns out not to be so great. The people who you wouldn't have taken to interview anyway, politely reject them, um, and then just cross your fingers and toes it all works out for the best. And next time, please, please, please plan out your recruitment process before you put your job advert.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottLive and see it through.

Al ElliottSo question number 2 is actually from Reddit, but it's such a good question that I thought it would be good to put to you. This person writes, I'll be 40 later this year and I'm considering making a major career change, which would involve significantly more schooling. I know people do it all the time, but is it really worth it? If I'm honest, I just really want to retire early and travel, spend time with family, pursue hobbies, but that doesn't feel like an option. The job does provide health insurance for my husband and our 2-year-old, and we're trying for another kid right now. I already have a master's degree, but none of the jobs I see in this field look interesting to me or pay as much as I'm making now. So I feel like switching careers would be expensive. I'm guessing what they're talking about, switching to a totally different type of job, will be expensive and will mean several years of not earning an income. By the time I can actually work in that new field, I'll be about 45. And what if I don't actually like it? Should I just stick with what I've got at this point? Is the grass greener? I think I'm going to sum this up with. Leanne, what do you think?

Leanne ElliottMy first offering of advice would be, are you bored or are you unfulfilled? Because if you're just a bit bored because the job's getting a bit samey, you're not being challenged, you're working from home, you'd rather be in the office, maybe perhaps you're a bit more extroverted and would prefer to be in that, that kind of busy, noisy working environment. Is it that, or is it the fact that you find your current work soul-destroying, doesn't fit with your values, drains you of energy, um, in terms of the work itself? And I would work on that distinction first, because if you hate it and it drains all of your energy and it's opposed to your values, then over time that's going to have such a detrimental impact on your health and well-being, and therefore as well the experiences and health and well-being of your family, that I'd say yes, exploring a new career is probably something that you should prioritise. If it's actually that my job's all right, I don't love it, but it's okay, it gives me great benefits, um, I guess my, my thought would be, well, what, what's missing? And the way to find that out is to engage in some career coaching. And that's not— people often think career coaching is like, how do I write a great resume? How do I apply for this job? And it's not. Great career coaching is about understanding who you are as a person, Exploring your identity, your values, what's important to you, and then discussing career options that will align with that and give you energy and fulfill your sense of purpose. Um, so for me, I think this requires a bit of deep diving, a bit of introspection, a bit of reflection in terms of what you actually want. I would recommend, uh, if you want to do some self-coaching on this before you engage a coach, I would recommend looking at, um, an exercise called VITALS. It's presented by Dr. Audrey Tang in her book, The Leader's Guide to Resilience.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottBasically, it just gets you to think about, well, your vitals. So your values, your interests, your temperament around the clock, which is kind of— are you better in the morning, you're better at night, uh, your life goals and your strengths. And it almost, as part of that reflection, helps you build a checklist of the energy sources that, that you are— that you need in your life, whether that be your work, your family, your community, or otherwise. If you're finding that 3 out of your 6, 7 vitals are being met by your job, and actually with a small, a small tweak in terms of company or where you work could help you fit another 2, then it probably is worth sticking with the career that you're in and just looking at how you change the context in which you're currently working. If none of your vitals are being met, then yeah, I think this is a potential starting point to really start exploring a different career. At the moment, it sounds like you're confused about what you actually want. Until you clarify that, I would advise against making any, any rash decisions to, to quit your job or indeed enrol on a very expensive and time-consuming master's. It might be a waste of time. Invest, invest in you. Do some introspection. Figure out what's, what's going to give you purpose. Um, Yeah, that would be, that would be my advice.

Al ElliottYeah, good advice. And I think, um, as someone who, I'm 46, about to turn 47, um, and I think maybe I did change, I'm pretty sure I've changed careers like every 2 or 3 years, uh, but I have got the safety of a property business behind me, which does pay the minimum. It would be very stressful. A couple of things. First of all, it'd be very stressful to change careers. Secondly, something I've noticed, particularly from the ages of 45 upwards, is that it takes me a lot longer to understand things these days. I used to be able to look at something and go, yeah, I get it. And now I get frustrated I can't do it. So, you know, if you, if you're retraining at 40, this could just be me, but if you retrain at 40, it might not be quite as easy as training up for your current job when you were 20 and perhaps a bit, perhaps a little bit more mentally agile. I don't know. I don't know your situation.

Leanne ElliottI would say do the research, do the introspection, do the reflection to maximise the chances if you do make that pivot or a complete career move change, um, that you've maximised the chance of that being successful.

Al ElliottFabulous. Okay, I think we've got time for just one more, but it's a very short one. Um, I'm chuckling because I'm reading it. My colleague sent an email complaining about me to me by mistake.

Leanne ElliottOh man.

Al ElliottNow, there was a, there was a few other bits in there, but I thought this is the, this is the crux of what they're asking. Should I actually take on board this criticism? And I do just what I'm actually doing, or do you think they were just venting? They were hugely apologetic about it. Were they just venting, or is this something I should really, really take on board and try and change?

Leanne ElliottI mean, first of all, I really feel for the person that sent that email. Like, I feel sick for you. Didn't— what was, what was your story on that, Al? Didn't you do something?

Al ElliottYeah, I subscribed to one of our competitors. This is a long time ago. I subscribed to what then one of our competitors' email sequences, um, and one of them was really good. So I forwarded it to my business partner and said, we should definitely rip this off and, uh, and basically steal what, what they're doing here. This is great copy. And of course, press reply rather than forward. So yeah, really awkward, but I, I know. And, and this, this is why I thought I wanted to include it, because it just, it's just a quick one, but it did make me go, oh, you know, when you just go, oh, you feel all sick.

Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, first of all, mortified for that person. Second of all, I mean, it can't be nice to get an email where, where someone's basically complaining about you. I mean, I guess not knowing more about it and what they were complaining about and the context of it and whether— what sentiment it was sent in, what mood it was sent in, I, I don't know. But also, I think with that, you don't know. So clearly this person's apologized because they would rightly be mortified that that went to you. Um, but the only way you're going to know about the motivations behind that, that feedback, whether it is feedback, whether it is a rant, is to ask them. I think it's cool that you're quite mature enough to go, wait a minute, is this something that I should respond to and, and reflect on and maybe adapt my behavior? Um, that's really cool. So I'd follow through with that maturity and I'd go to them and go, look, I know, I know you're sorry. Don't sweat it. We've all been there. Maybe, maybe you haven't, but Al has. Lots of food been there. Um, I mean, just say, you know, I'm just curious, is this something that you think, um, you know, in a different context would be some constructive feedback you'd provide to me as a colleague that I can use to inform my personal and professional development? That's the only other reason you get— only other way you're gonna know. So I think either you put it in that big red balloon and let it go, or you have a follow-up conversation, because otherwise you'll be making lots of guesses and assumptions that you'll never know if they're right or not.

Al ElliottVery good advice. And I think also if there's stuff in there that's actionable, like, you know, and this person is always late and whenever I email them they're always going to terse reply, that's fair enough. You might want to take some of that on board. If they're just saying, oh, they just talk all the time and every time I look over they seem to be on the phone, it's like, you know, on their phone, not rather than on the actual old-fashioned phone calling customers, then perhaps that's more of a vent. But, um, I think you'll probably know because if there's parts of that email that really make you really uncomfortable, they're probably the things that maybe deep down you know need to change. Leanne, that's it, that's the end of it. We have definitely, definitely covered a lot today. Um, anything to add before we go?

Leanne ElliottThis is of course our new format episode on a Tuesday. Let us know what you think. Can we do better? Do you have a question for the Weekly Work Surgery? Do you want to come on as a guest? All of our contact details are in the show notes. And if you want to continue the conversation, head over to LinkedIn and search Truth, Lies and Work. I'll be in the comments, so feel free to start chatting and let us know if you've— in fact, I might post that this week. What's been your kind of like, oh no, email send?

Al ElliottOh yeah, that'd be a good one. Yeah, that'd be a good one.

Leanne ElliottLet's get some confessions from the inbox.

Al ElliottConfessions. There you go. There's a new segment for our Tuesday. For our Tuesday show. So jump over to LinkedIn, have the conversation with Leanne. I might drop in from time to time, although I'm a bit old and grumpy for LinkedIn, but, um, I might drop in. And I think that's it, Lee. Will we see people next time? I'll be there.

Leanne ElliottI will be there too.

Al ElliottBye for now. Bye.

Leanne ElliottI mean, at this point, I'm not sure what difference it makes. You fuck it. Do that again.

Al ElliottI did like that though.