Episode 91 · 18 April 2024 · 45:15
How to Manage Superstars, with Diego Maradona's Former Agent, Jon Smith
Featuring Jon Smith
How to Manage Superstars, with Diego Maradona's Former Agent, Jon Smith
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Intro: Who is Jon Smith?
The Maradona story begins
Managing high-profile personalities
interview#high-profile-personalities#sports-management#ego-management
The one-to-one opportunity
The art of negotiation
Negotiating with Putin (indirectly)
interview#putin#russia#negotiation#politics
Knowing when to walk away
interview#walking-away#business-decisions#ceo
Talent acquisition strategies
The changing landscape of work
The team behind the superstar
interview#teamwork#support-staff#mentorship
Financial well-being and diversity
Leadership styles: respect vs. fear
interview#leadership#respect#fear#ferguson
Diego Maradona: the human behind the legend
interview#maradona#legend#human-side
Final thoughts: keeping humans pivotal
Show notes
How to Manage Superstars, with Diego Maradona's Former Agent, Jon Smith
Guest: Jon Smith — superagent who has navigated the careers of icons like Diego Maradona, with stories that bridge sports, politics, and entertainment.
What does managing Diego Maradona teach you about leading high-performing teams? More than you might think.
Jon Smith joins Al and Leanne to pull back the curtain on managing superstars — from negotiating with some of the most powerful figures in the world (including an indirect negotiation with Putin) to spotting talent before anyone else does. Jon shares how the lessons from football's biggest deals translate directly to the corporate world: mastering negotiations, handling egos, and why diversity isn't just fair — it's financially smart.
Whether you're a sports fan or a business leader, this episode is packed with invaluable advice on making your workplace not just a place to work, but a great place to work.
Top 3 Takeaways
Every deal has component parts. When you're stuck on one point, work through the others. Find something you agree on, and you'll soften the hardest part of the argument. Negotiation is about patience, not force.
Superstars need surrounding. When you're one-to-one with somebody, you have an opportunity to surround them for a period of time. It's not about being more important — it's about creating the space for the conversation to happen.
Human beings must be pivotal. For all the systemization in business, it's the human beings that need to be at the centre of your regime. The best leaders — from Ferguson to Wenger to Guardiola — each found their own way to put people first.
More From Jon Smith
- Follow Jon on Twitter: twitter.com/jon1startist
- Read Jon's book: amazon.co.uk/dp/1472123026
- Visit Jon's website: jonsmith.co
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Jon SmithPeople wouldn't know particularly who Maradona was, and he was what, 5'1? But he was— he, he just had a persona, a charisma. I mean, I think God maybe Certain people are born, he sprinkles a bit of special dust on them as they leave and join this planet. And he had that in spades. He'd just be out there and he had that dynamic human being quality. And then he had the talent, which was absolutely God-given. Diego, as Diego, you're one of the sweetest, most lovely human beings that I've ever met.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Work podcast, Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottQuick bit of housekeeping. If this is your first time listening for a while, then we're Truth, Lies and Work, not Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture. Still talking about workplace culture, just thought we'd just change it up a little bit and make it a little bit tighter on the name. And secondly, we've got a new Tuesday episode where we have a weekly workplace surgery where we We put your questions to Leanne, the expert, and she answers them. We also go through news roundup and all kinds of other fun stuff. Thursday, this is our interview session, and we've got quite the interview today. Now, we talk about management quite a lot on this podcast, and it can sometimes feel like a bit of an abstract concept. But there's one arena where good and bad management is readily apparent, and that is sports. Now, before you turn off, if you're not a major sports fan, I'm not a huge sports fan, But just don't turn off because I think this is going to be a really interesting episode for you. Today's guest is great at taking the lessons from the world of sports and applying them to organizations just like yours. We're going to hear the answers to these 5 questions. Number 1, how do you effectively deal with important people? In our guest's case, these were often household names. Number 2, how to negotiate effectively. Essential— this is essential for anything from getting a teams to buy in, to negotiating promotion, to even getting that really cool person to come and work with you. Number 3, how to find talented people even when they're not looking to move. Number 4, why the basis for building incredible wealth and success is as simple as having a diverse team. And number 5, how to manage superstars. They could be the most famous player in football, or perhaps your most effective but most annoying salesperson.
Leanne ElliottYeah, a question I get asked a lot actually is, should I hire a superstar? Should I go after that grade A talent, or will I be making my life a lot harder? I think sports offers a really nice context to explore this a bit more and, and try and identify the lessons and approaches that can be carried over into the business world and into organizational life. So, if you are contemplating your talent strategy, this may well be one of the most important interviews you'll hear this year on management. Our guest today is Jon Smith OBE, the football super agent. Jon has worked with some of the biggest sports stars in the world, including Diego Maradona and Lord Sebastian Coe. If you're not sure, he's the dude that basically sat behind the London 2012 Olympics. He also managed the off-pitch activities of the England team and ultimately created the Team England brand, not to mention being a member of the team that created the football anthem World in Motion for the 1990 World Cup. You know the one, it's the one with Jon Barnes rapping, right? Also, fun fact, that was Order's only ever number 1 hit.
Al ElliottIs that right?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, what else about Jon? Jon Smith was also the first commercial representative of the England cricket team and managed the commercial affairs of the Welsh rugby team, comedy on bees. Um, oh, except they didn't actually win anything during his tenure.
Al ElliottI'll cut that bit out.
Leanne ElliottIt's on his website, it's fine. But his achievements and experiences don't stop there. Al, who has he negotiated with again?
Al ElliottMikhail Gorbachev.
Leanne ElliottAnd Putin, was it?
Al ElliottThere's a guy called Putin over in Russia, not very well known.
Jon SmithNo, well, yeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, he's also renowned for bringing American football and Northern Soul to the UK. He's met Mother Teresa and has been kidnapped by the Ukrainians. I can't imagine that happened on the same day, but maybe it did. Um, perhaps more on that later. I know you can't wait to meet him. So let's go meet Jon Smith, the football super agent.
Jon SmithIn simplistic form, my name is Jon Smith. I was a music promoter for many years. I was the guy behind Northern Soul and we achieved quite a lot. It was a fun time when people were Enjoying in the '70s, post the Beatles, a sort of invigoration of multifarious music appetites. And Northern Soul was basically very fast, upbeat American rhythm and blues. That was a British itineration of an American form of music, which I loved. I sold that business and took a few years off because bizarrely, I was married at the time and my wife got sick. And because life has a sense of humor, I guess, bizarre sense of humor, she passed away the same week that I sold out. So I was 29 and had Quite a lot of money, but no life. So I then spent the next few years pretty much in the bottom of a whiskey bottle. I went to live in LA. And then as I slowly emerged, I loved what America was doing in sport because it's what we were doing in music all those years back. And I just, nothing creative. I just stole the ideas and brought them back to England in the '80s. This was 1980. Well, Lee died in 1981. So I was probably back here by the time it was '85. And in the '80s in football in England, well, I was going to say the UK, but pertinently England, it wasn't a good time. People were dying in stadia. There was Heysel, there was Bradford Fire, and so on and so on. The government were not supportive of football at the time. And as a consequence, the bar was quite low. So I could bring back fun, a bit of entertainment, bring some sponsors across with me from California, which we did. And I guess I'm best known now as Jon Smith, football agent. It'll be written on my tombstone, Jon Smith, football agent. I'll tell you why later. And that's my life. And I took that company public and we sold out in 2011. And now I consult to various people around the world and I do a bit of media stuff and I've written a book and I smile sweetly at lots of people. And that's me.
Al ElliottWe got introduced to Jon via the incredible Stella Smith from Perks. Go back to episode 33 to hear her full story. After a quick chat with Jon, I knew he'd be a brilliant guest, so I bought his book, The Deal. Now, as I said, I like football, but I know nothing about it. But this didn't stop me loving the book. And we're not, again, we're not paid to say this. I just genuinely loved it. It starts off with Jon and his team narrowly avoiding, narrowly avoiding a shooting in Odessa, Ukraine, and then moves along at lightning pace past, as Leanne said, Mother Teresa, negotiating million-pound deals, IPOing his business, and so many more stories. Even if you're not an avid football fan, I promise this is a book you will love. So here's the story of how it all came about.
Jon SmithI had a writer with me, a lovely man called James Olly, who was at the time the Evening Standard's lead sportswriter. He's now with ESPN. And we just wanted it because we were there during the football time when there were so many wonderful opportunities and the Abramoviches of this world and the Sheikh Mansours from United Arab Emirates were coming into football and I knew all these people. And it was so easy to say, oh, then we met him and then we met him and then we did that. And there's all— the football agency business is very edgy, very edgy. And I didn't want to diss anybody, put anyone down. I wanted to continue to eat in this town. And so we just went anecdotal and just told the stories as they were.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithAnd I tried, James and I tried so hard to make it all upbeat. And we still had 24 pages removed by the lawyers. So one day, because people keep sniffing around it and saying, we're going to make a movie of this, we're going to make a TV series or something. And I keep saying, well, one day we're going to put those 24 pages back. So who knows, maybe one day.
Leanne ElliottListening to the interview between Al and Jon, it became instantly obvious that Jon knows how to tell a great story and clearly to be a master negotiator, Jon must be able to think and talk fast. I wanted to know if Jon has always had this gift of being a great communicator.
Jon SmithWell, that's a really good question, because I came from a background of being, in my head anyway, the world's worst stammerer. I was, I can't remember as a child ever talking normally. In fact, I became— my real name is Jonathan, Jonathan Smith, and I became Jon Smith because I could not talk. And people used to say, hello, what's your name? And I'd go, shake my head. And eventually, Jon would come out. And I became Jon Smith because I could never say Athan. And so I started life as a very shy, withdrawn individual because I couldn't project myself. It's probably why I talk so much now, all those years to make up. And I was, I was very lucky that my dad found someone with a miracle speech cure at the time. Wonderful man who I love dearly, sadly no longer with us, called Bill Kerr. And Bill's view of life was that he would, if you had been stammering, or to use a much more eloquent and more relative word for the 2020s, if you were disfluent in a bad way, this was in your brain. Most children start forming their speech patterns in about 24 months after they're born. Mine had veered off on some weird journey of its own. So I was talking— well, I wasn't talking. I was incommunicative. So that fear of words was born with me, more or less. And so as a consequence, I really didn't want to communicate with anybody. And Bill Kerr's journey with me was to make me, make my brain figure that it was more afraid not to stammer than to not talk at all. So he basically beat me up. He physically beat me every time I stammered. And he retrained my speech and made me stand bolt upright as opposed to hiding in corners. And nod my head to every syllable, purse my lips. So my name is Jon Smith. Very difficult to actually stammer when you're doing that. And if I did, I got hit, physically hit. I mean, I having— this one was 15 years of age, having not talked for 14 and a half years. I was cured in 3 days. The most phenomenal treatment. And I don't think you could emulate it today because that treatment would not be available or allowed unless you could bottle that emotion and translate it mentally. So having been so reticent to communicate and be with people, he then spent— after 3 days, I was with him for 2 weeks. He then spent the next 10 days building me up and giving me tricks of the trade and making me feel more important than everyone else on the planet. I've been very privileged to meet some wonderful people, of which probably Mikhail Gorbachev was the most inspirational. I mean, I love Diego. We had some great times together. But if you look at the planet of the world, he physically changed the map of the planet of the Of the world. Change the map of the planet of the world, but you know what I mean. And so I'm in awe of him. And I use Bill's lessons to build me up to be believing that whoever you are, I'm just as important because I'm me. And I'm as relevant in my own way as you are in your grander way. And so that's— I applied that logic to me every time. And then he taught me nice little tricks of how to use speech pauses and things. Can I throw something in here? Because I love this one. This is my favorite. This is my favorite one. So you sit opposite somebody in a job interview or your schoolmaster or whatever you might be where you're a one-to-one.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithAnd you're on the back foot because either they think they're much more important or they are more important in that environment because they're going to pay you money to come and work for, or whatever you might be. He taught me to look straight in someone's eyes. I'm doing this. It's difficult. I'm doing it now with you. But I can look at you all day long face to face without the electronics because I'm looking at the bridge of your nose. And I'll never blink because I can do this all day, every day, and you'll, you'll never see my eyes move. I can do this. And it's actually quite interesting because you do that face to face with someone and you watch them do this because they're just a little bit uncomfortable and it's let you in. And once you're in, you're in their mental living room. You can take a seat.
Al ElliottOn the pod, we've had some genuine superstars, some heroes of both of ours. And a lot of people who we thought we'd never be able to convince to come on. So it is natural to feel nervous in that situation, but Jon explains that you shouldn't be. You have every right to be treated as an equal.
Jon SmithWe are all relevant, but when you're one-to-one with somebody, you have an opportunity to surround them for a moment or 3 with who you are. And I think that Is not a privilege, it's a right. You have that moment with them and they've granted you the time. And in a very busy, successful business person's life, if that person's given you the time, then make the most of it. Don't be subservient. For those moments, you are an equal in all respects. Now, if you goof it up and you don't use the opportunity, so be it. But don't, don't be dissuaded to be yourself because you're with someone that you've seen on the television or you've read about or you've seen on the internet. That person does the same things that you do every day, from brushing their teeth to going to the toilet. It really You are them. They've been very successful in their world, and you might need them. But if you think they might need you, then play those cards and play them hard.
Leanne ElliottLet's talk deals. Whether you are trying to negotiate funding for a project that you feel passionate about, perhaps a salary increase, or even trying to encourage a great candidate to join your team, it's all about crafting a great This is how Jon goes about putting deals together.
Jon SmithEvery deal has a number of component parts. If I've got a very egotistical artist on one side and I've got an intransigent employer, potential employer, on the other side, I break things down. So we talk about— initially, we talk about the easy stuff because easy stuff gets everyone a little bit more relaxed. You make a list of the Necessities, and you make a list of the things that would be nice to have. And then you make a list of the things that probably you're not going to get. But, you know, those 3 you might get. And these 5 over here are way out there. You get one of those, then it's magnificent. And buy yourself time. Don't rush to respond all the time. I used to, when I sat in meetings with people, I used to have a briefcase over here in the days when we had briefcases. I'm sure there must be other—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jon Smiththings you use these days. I used to have a briefcase over there. And if somebody said to me, fired me a quick question about something that I'd brought up and I hadn't quite covered in my head in my research, I'd pause and say, sorry, I just want to check something a minute. And I'd go over there. I haven't got a clue what I'm checking. And I'm buying myself time. All about pausing. Pausing is great. And I use it in my speeches as well. You know, you can You can stop. You can pause. And for you, sometimes it may feel like an eternity. For the audience, it's 2 seconds and they're quite happy to sit there. So I think it's using the elements around you, which includes time and being able to— and if you can't get somewhere, if you've gone as far as you can go, and the gate is shut, then put it away and revisit it once you've won, once you've let them win something else somewhere else. I mean, I'm not talking rocket science here. A lot of people will know that. But it's how you do it. And it's the body language you use. And it's the element of creating an environment which is warm. So many times I've been in a room where there's hostility. And I guess what I mean, as a fairly junior football agent, it was always us and them. So the club was always going to fuck you and you were always going to be the protector of your client. I never saw that because as a successful football agent, you probably have no more than 50 clients from Real Madrid to Man United to Benfica to—
Al ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithParis Saint-Germain. Paris Saint-Germain wasn't really around in those days before the Qataris were involved, but all of those. So my view was that if they like dealing with me, they're more likely to come for my players than other people's players. And as a consequence, they'll say, well, if Jon's involved, at least the deal will be done. It will be done in a decent environment and we'll find ways through it. And so I tried to create a very warm environment for negotiations. And you could be in some pretty tough situations. And you can still manage that in a way where you're not shouting. You're just pausing. So it looks like you're perhaps taking their point of view seriously, even though they've just talked a lot of old crap and you're not going to do that. But you— it gives the impression you're trying to do that. And every particular point normally has something about it. So a player's, I mean, in my scenario, a player's salary will have component parts. It'll have image rights, it'll have real estate, it'll have transportation costs, it'll have family ticketing, it'll have all sorts. So, you know, you start putting that round then and you go, okay, so this is a no. Somewhere in that pack of cards over here, there's a yes. Now, is it here? Is it there? So you go visit the easy one first.
Al ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithTick that one off. And so you work through them until you come to that closed door again. And then hopefully, and this is one of the best things that I learned over the years, I've asked enough questions. Just keep asking questions, even if it's personal, which golf club they belong to, what's their handicap, you know, what is their wife's best dish that she cooks, all of that shit.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithAnd eventually you'll find something you agree on. And off the back of that, you'll soften that part of the argument that they don't want to do.
Al ElliottJon has even indirectly negotiated with Putin via the 2nd most influential man in Russia.
Jon SmithWe were doing a deal in Russia for a club in London. In fact, it's been articulated. It was Arshavin going to Arsenal. And it was, the club was Zenit St. Petersburg. And I never quite understood why I got moved from the sort of sporting director to the chief executive in the negotiation. It wasn't overly difficult, but I got moved from him to the man at the time who was running Gazprom, which was the state—
Leanne ElliottOil company.
Jon SmithRussian national. I mean, I think they'd shut the Ukrainian oil pipe last week, the week previous. And now he's talking to me about a frigging football deal. And ultimately, I found out it was Putin's club. So all the, all these messages were going back up, apparently, to the head boy who kept saying, yet, yet, no. And honestly, he's the only guy who I never got to move One shot. Everything came from our side. We eventually got the deal done with— I said, sorry, in the book, it was the last day of the transfer window and we got the deal done with 4 seconds left on the clock. But it was a real experience coming across a complete and utter brick wall because I had nothing I could give him that he didn't have. And sometimes you just have to go, oh, fuck it. You know what? It is what it is. Let's get the deal done and we'll make it up somewhere else.
Leanne ElliottWhat happens if you just can't make the deal work? When do you know to walk away?
Jon SmithWell, let's broaden that out away from football. So I was chief executive of a public company at the time and we were quite acquisitive having What happened, we had this big football agency and then they brought in trading windows so we could only trade our stock, if you like, our product in January and June, July, August. So Christmas for us was August. So we decided we would fill in because it made the cash flow very lumpy for obvious reasons. So we thought we'd go and buy some stuff that was allied to us in the entertainment business to fill those gaps and actually give us a wider dimension to the shareholder group we had because they were now worried about our cash flow. And we did, we went out and we bought theatrical agencies and things that were allied to sport and entertainment. I always thought sport is entertainment. So, you know, what my players were doing on a football field, other guys were doing on a stage or in front of a camera. So we We did all of that. And it was interesting to answer your question. Yeah, there were deals that I really wanted certain things. I mean, I wanted to buy that mad car rally that went from London to, I think, Bahrain at the time. No rules, no regulation. It was just, it was great. And you couldn't do it these days because there's too much health and safety in it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithSo probably it's the right thing not to do it. But I wanted to buy that, but the price was just too high. And sometimes as a CEO, it's very difficult to detract from what you really think is great and you can really ramp value to A point where you know you're just paying too much. It's not like buying a car, which is a personal thing. You can't get the car dealer to drop an extra couple of grand. Oh, sod it, I'll buy it because I'm going to love it. No, it's not. If you're on the acquisition trail, I learned to my expense, to my detriment, That don't overpay on the way in. That is the worst thing you can do because you're chasing yourself continually. So half of your management is not geared just towards income, but super income. And again, it's a fairly obvious thing, but in my business, which is emotionally driven in many quarters, it's very easy to fall into that trap. Never overpay. Set a parameter and then a little bit more just in case and no more. And there were deals that I walked away from, sadly. I felt better, felt better 6 weeks later. Um, but no, the last, the 3 or 4 days after that, I wasn't very happy.
Leanne ElliottThe best football managers are always looking for new talent. And as Dave Klein from Management Accelerator said in episode 87, you may not always be hiring, But an exceptional manager is always recruiting.
Jon SmithAnd we watch the players a lot. We look and we look and we look and we look. So yeah, they do. You know, the trading window finishes on the 31st of August or the 1st of September, and everyone buggers off on holiday for a couple of weeks. Then when they come back, it's a slow work-through process. Most of the big deals you see that happen in June, July, August, or September, Or sometimes in January, most of those big deals haven't just happened. They've been in the planning stage for 3, 6 months and sometimes 2 years if the player's contract's running down. The only times that it really jumps out at you is the last week of the trading windows when people, when they see a big deal move and that opens up an opportunity somewhere and you think, okay, well, he was number 4 in my list, but let's go for him now because I can close this deal now. And then you've got to be very fleet of foot.
Al ElliottThe argument that's raging on in every platform is work from home versus in office. Now, we, Leanne and I, are very much the work from home types, and also we live in Mostar in Bosnia and Herzegovina, so it's a pretty substantial commute to get to an office in the UK. But Jon does put forward a decent argument against working from home, at least all the time?
Jon SmithGood question again. And it's an interesting scenario now because I sold out and I consult. I took a few years off, got really bored, consulted for a few years, which I'm doing now. But the interesting thing is for me now, I'm not getting the deal flow that passes this window because I work from home. I'm in a different environment. And when I go into London, into town, which is 2 or 3 times a week, I get involved in things and I already begin to see patterns of, oh, if I speak to him or follow up with him, but if I've got an office in town and I've got them coming for lunch or tea or dinner or something, I invite them to the theater or whatever, I'll engender something. So I think you've got to be, as they use that clause in the lottery, I think you've got to be in it to win it. You know, and I think you have to be on that roundabout. Getting on the roundabout and coming off of it is very difficult. I mean, I'm 72 this year. So, you know, do I want to be on the roundabout? Not really. But I get, because I'm quite highly energized still, and I reckon I've probably got, I don't know, maybe 10 years of this energy level. So I wanted, there's another act or two in my—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithIn my orbit, I think. But the frustration thing is that I'm not in the mainstream.
Leanne ElliottAlmost every successful person has an amazing team behind them, and Jon is no different.
Jon SmithAnd I had a wonderful, wonderful man called Greg Clough in my life, who sadly is no longer with us. And he was my COO, and he was on my right shoulder and my left shoulder. And I was like a big elephant, just create a lot They're going to have to clean up after me because I just want to, yeah, let's do that. Yeah, let's do that. That's a great idea. Let's do that. And I was like a magnet. People used to come to me and I'd be in the media promoting myself and the company and everything else. And we did it with good humor. And we did it, I think, with good grace. So people liked dealing with us. And then there was Greg, who was my reality check. And he'd say, look, You know what, we do that. You know what this means? It means that, or it means this, or whatever. So honestly, Jon, don't, you know, let's think about this narrow form. And then behind Greg was a Deborah and a Hayley and a few other people, all of whom were bright analysts in their own way. And a wonderful PA who was so much more than a PA. And so she understood what way we were going and what we were doing. It's all about a tight team that respect each other and care about the product. And First Artists was a very— if you look at the football business in particular and the sports business across the board, so many successful souls traveled through us because we recruited well, I think. But the team at the top cared. And that showed. And we used to have team bonding sessions. Not some of the stuff you have to do, you know, pick a color and, you know, get your head around blue because blue is the color of the week. None of that crap. It was all about, in reality, if this is your company, Deborah, what do you want to do with it? Tell me what you want to do. This is, this is yours now. The next 5 minutes is your company. And we listened. And so having a, having a management team that Isn't over there, up there somewhere, but is actually on the shop floor, so to speak, I think really matters. And being in the mainstream matters. You don't get the offers that you need if you're not on that roundabout. So I, I had to cherry-pick things that just fall my way occasionally.
Leanne ElliottWe've talked about financial well-being back in episode 55 with Professor Sir Kerry Cooper. And then again in episodes 71 and 72 with Ruth Hancock, the CEO of Octopus Money. But when your salary is on paper millions a year, then should employers like football clubs be hands-on with helping players manage their money?
Jon SmithYeah, it's not an us and them. Yeah, we're all in this together. It helps that, you know, up till maybe 10 years ago, To use an old fraction, 3/5 of Premier League players went bust within 10 years of leaving the game. Well, the money was still big 10 years ago. You know, don't let that happen. Clubs and players should have a system. The Premier League should put a system in place. The Football League should have— I think the Football League is starting to— the Football League should have a system in place as well where—
Al ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithYou can't compel people to put money into it, but you highly suggest it. In the early days of the PFA, there used to be players' pensions, which were sacrosanct. Pensions don't really mean as much as they used to these days. But, you know, that's— there should be elements of saving and helping families. And, you know, this is a—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithThere's a very rampant and rape— rape is too strong a word— a very, very rampant and dangerous environment where too many negative people surround the positives that I believe are huge talent. And you need to protect yourself from that. So now we have a position where there's Major 7, and in some cases 8-figure sums. And the families have no idea, in most cases, how that should be apportioned or managed. So sometimes they use an agent, then they chuck the agent, try to argue about his fee, and then they surround the player and they keep the money and they go and spend and they do and they be, and there's no real investment. in the player or family's future. And I get very worried about that. So I think if I have a criticism of football clubs, it's that they don't do enough to ensure that the big monies that are going to players and their families are managed in a more commensurate manner. Because these are very young people we're talking about.
Al ElliottYeah.
Jon Smithabout, and some of them in their mid-teens, and they're going into a whole different environment. And although the clubs have got better at managing that socially and educationally, they haven't got that great a track record of managing it financially. So that, for me, is the big issue that needs to be— one of the big issues that needs to be dealt with in the coming years.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Jon SmithUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing, but there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Jon SmithI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts, but come back.
Jon SmithYeah, come Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottIf there is one thing you do, if there is just one thing you do to make a huge impact in your organisation and on the performance and wellbeing of your employees, it is train your managers. So, let's take a look at how some of the highest-profile managers in the world of football Respect.
Jon SmithFerguson, who I knew very well, reasonably well, did it by respect and fear. Arsène did it by physical and verbal eloquence. Klopp, what little I know, because my son was involved with one of the players there, and I've seen this and I've grown up with the Liverpool system.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithOver the years, did it, is doing it by respect. People respect his opinion. They respect his ability to solve their problems. He's caring. And tactically, he has good people around him. You know, Ferguson, I think, would be first to admit he was never a tactician, but he employed the best tacticians. It's teamwork. The same thing as we said about the public company. You need a Greg Clarke, you need a Debra and a Hayley and everybody else in their own way. So huge respect for Klopp and Ferguson because not only have they done it once, they've rebuilt. And that takes vision and absolute family management. And it is a family. I remember we were Again, my time with Arsenal and also Harry Redknapp when he was at Spurs, getting the team to be a team, they're a family. It's your extended family. And you go out on that pitch and you fight for them because you care for them. And that caring factor together with the ability, I mean, if you look at Arsenal, I mean, Arteta's got very talented young players who are now getting braver, more and more brave.
Al ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithBecause they know they can be now. And then you have the tactician behind you who says, okay, when you get the ball in this position and you've got this player here and this player there, he does this and he does this. And you play and you create systems. And the players then respect that you really understand what's best for them and for the team. And that's when it all begins to gel. And by the way, it takes time. Pep Guardiola took 4 years at Man City. This is Arteta's, what, 3rd, possibly 4th year by memory. Takes time. And fans are notoriously impatient. I remember Alex Ferguson won the European Cup one year with the outstretched boot of Ole Gunnar Solskjær. And by October the next season, he wasn't winning very many and they were calling for his head. Yeah.
Al ElliottDiego Maradona is widely acknowledged as being one of the greatest players in history. He also set the transfer fee record not once but actually twice, and Jon was his manager for quite a while. Just to demonstrate how tough this assignment was, Maradona's gift was perceived perhaps by the press and maybe some of his rivals as a bit precocious and earned him the nickname the Golden Boy, which stuck with him throughout his entire career. So what was it like managing one of the greatest footballers in the world.
Jon SmithI mean, he was an astonishing human being. It's interesting, you know, I walked in various rooms with him, corporate rooms, and people wouldn't know particularly who Maradona was. And he was what, 5 foot 1? But he just had a persona, a charisma. I mean, I think God, maybe certain people born, he sprinkles a bit of special dust on them as they leave and join the this planet. And he had that in spades. He'd just be out there and he had that dynamic human being quality. And then he had the talent, which was absolutely God-given. I mean, there's some great shots on YouTube of him doing keepy-uppy, you know, where you balance the football on your boot and you're bouncing up and down and he's signing autographs while he's doing it. I mean, just astonishing stuff. And he was 2 people. I used to say this to him. I said, you know, you are your Diego and your Maradona. You know, Maradona crosses the white line, you become the star. But, you know, Diego as Diego, you're one of the sweetest, most lovely human beings that I've ever met. He was just fun. And actually very caring about where he came from, which was nothing. And he was, he was fabulous. And I still believe— and I'm biased— I still believe he was the greatest footballer of all time.
Leanne ElliottSuch an interesting conversation. I mean, go and buy the book, even if you aren't a football superfan. Um, go and buy it. Um, oh, oh, good tip actually. Al and I have set up Kindle Family Library. We are those nerds. Um, so I got to read Jon's book for free because Al bought it. Um, so there you go. Any avid readers out there with family members, also on Kindle, share a library and you get free books.
Al ElliottIt's true. It's true. And you need to join the conversation on LinkedIn. Just search for Truth, Lies and Work and you can discuss anything about this episode. Now, just before you go, we had to ask Jon what the secret is to building business and acquiring wealth. Let's be honest, he's done a fair bit of both of those.
Jon SmithWhat I know is For all the systemization, it's the human beings that need to be pivotal in your regime. Because, and that's the one thing that I love about our business as opposed to a lot of industries which have grown into tech businesses. I mean, I'm an investor in a health business, a lovely business called Pirckx, P-I-R-K-X, by the way.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jon SmithAnd it's healthcare for £49 a year. It's brilliant. If you're ill, you get a doctor at 3 o'clock in the morning. It's fabulous. It's a piece of tech. You know, it's— the lady who runs it, Stella, has created this piece of tech that works. It's a techie business. For all the health bit is personal, it's like a piece of tech. Our business It's all about people. And I love that. And in the end, entertainment of human beings, entertainment of people should be by people in the theater, in films, on television, across all forms of electronic entertainment. It's actually people. I get very concerned that a lot of Very young people are starting to look at the virtual world and thinking that it's real. Ultimately, we need to live in the real world, and one day we will leave this planet and we'll go to Mars or wherever we go, but it'll be human beings. I don't want it to be— I don't want the humans to be marginalized. And in football or boxing or tennis or cricket or whatever it is, it's human beings. swimming. It's human beings, and that for me is the most important part of our business.
Leanne ElliottWhat a lovely way to end the conversation. Thank you so much to Jon Smith, an incredible guest to have on the show. Be sure to subscribe to hear more awesome interviews with some upcoming guests on a Thursday. We've got loads of great people booked in, you know. I think you're going to be really surprised. Do tune in as well on Tuesday if you want to hear a bit more about Al and I. You want to hear what's What's going on in the world of people and culture and work. Maybe you have a question, send it into our Work Surgery, name to be confirmed, it changes every week. Or anything else that you want, just get in touch. All of our details are in the show notes. We're always over on LinkedIn. Yeah, I think that's all the admin. Subscribe, like, review, 5 stars, send complaints to an email address. We don't want that public. We'll address it. We just want to address it behind closed doors, you know.
Al ElliottWhat she said. So we'll see you on Tuesday, and then join us again next Thursday for another great interview. Bye-bye for now. Bye.
Leanne ElliottWhat a lovely way to end this episode. Welcome— no, welcome. And then again in episodes 71 and 72 with Ruth Ruth.
Jon SmithSorry, Ruth.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture— nope.
Al ElliottBeen a long day, hasn't it?