Episode 93 · 30 April 2024 · 38:00

Call me Daddy, Elon's latest scandal, and talking Suicide - Plus Your Workplace Questions Answered: This Week in Work 30th April 2024

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Is Tesla the new Enron? Elon Musk's leadership under fire
news roundup#tesla #elon-musk #leadership #enron
The power of cooperatives: Mondragón and employee ownership
news roundup#cooperatives #employee-ownership #mondragon
Men's mental health in coastal towns: suicide prevention and support
news roundup#mens-mental-health #suicide-prevention #coastal-towns
Burnout discussion recap with Jeremy Cline
news roundup#burnout #interview #recap
Workplace Surgery: creepy boss encounters
workplace surgery#workplace-issues #boss #harassment
Workplace Surgery: mini-surveys for team feedback
workplace surgery#team-feedback #surveys #workplace-culture
Workplace Surgery: transitioning into leadership
workplace surgery#leadership-transition #career-growth

Show notes

Call Me Daddy, Elon's Latest Scandal & Talking Suicide — Plus Your Workplace Questions Answered

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the accusations that Tesla could be "the new Enron," why cooperative businesses like Mondragón build unshakeable cultures, and a critical men's mental health initiative tackling rising suicide rates in coastal towns. Plus, in the Workplace Surgery: creepy bosses, stepping into leadership, and mini-surveys that actually work.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Is Tesla the new Enron? Dustin Moskovitz — co-founder of Facebook and Asana — has publicly accused Tesla of misleading consumers on a massive scale, drawing direct comparisons to the Enron scandal. With engineers who've left the company speaking out about safety concerns, Al and Leanne ask: is this the beginning of the end for Musk's reign in tech, or just noise from a disgruntled rival? Source →

2. Why cooperatives build better workplace cultures Mondragón Corporation in Spain — founded in 1956 — employs 70,000 workers who own part of the enterprise and share in both the profit and the risks. Al and Leanne explore what democratic, co-owned structures can teach us about commitment, culture, and why "we work to live, not live to work" isn't just a slogan. Source →

3. Men's mental health: a public health crisis in coastal towns A new initiative in East Sussex (including St. Leonards) is tackling the concerning rise in suicide rates among men. Al and Leanne discuss the warning signs — changes in behaviour, mood swings, irritability, and the loss of dreams — and why community-level intervention matters. They also reflect on episode 22 with Jim Young, the only unedited interview the podcast has ever published. Source →

Bonus: Burnout discussion recap Highlights from a recent conversation with Jeremy Cline on burnout — the real-life impacts and personal stories shared. Jeremy's show is well worth your time. Jeremy's Change Work Life Podcast →

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Creepy boss: "My boss called me 'Daddy' in front of the whole team — was it a joke?" Leanne's verdict: run, run as fast and far away as you can. That is not acceptable in the workplace, even as a joke.
Mini-surveys: Amanda Wilcox (Operations Director at MAP) asks whether quick, regular pulse surveys can replace annual engagement surveys — and how anonymity works in small teams.
New manager: "I recently got promoted to a team lead role and I'm worried about asserting my authority." Leanne and Al break down why authority is the wrong frame — and share the story of John, Leanne's best manager.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

🧠 If You've Been Affected

If you have been affected by any of the themes in this episode, or are currently struggling with your mental health, the following resources may be useful:

Mind website: mind.org.uk/information-support
If you are feeling in distress or despair, including feelings of suicide, please consider calling the Samaritans for free on 116 123 (UK) or email jo@samaritans.org (Rest of World)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Work podcast, brought to you by who? It's the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science, the psychology of work.

Al ElliottYes, we are. If this is your first time listening on a Tuesday—

Leanne ElliottSorry.

Al ElliottCome on, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottSorry.

Al ElliottWe're a professional broad— she's just banged the microphone. I'm not even sure I can take that out in edit. If this is your first time listening on a Tuesday, you'll discover that Tuesday's a little bit more laid back than Thursdays. We're a little less professional, as Leanne's just demonstrated by smashing the microphone. Thank you for that. Just really quickly, Tuesday is all—

Leanne ElliottOh, what was that, Al? I'm so sorry, did you just drop your phone?

Al ElliottShush. If this is your first time listening on a Tuesday, basically we just sum up what we've learned about, about work with a few stories. We tell you what's going on in the world, and then we have our world-famous weekly workplace surgery, which I think we've nailed the name. I think we're going to stick with that, where we have the world-famous amazing psychologist, business psychologist Leanne Elliott, who's going to answer your questions.

Leanne ElliottOn today's episode of This Week in Work, we'll be asking, is Elon Musk the next Elizabeth Holmes. We will also be exploring why organizations that are cooperatives—

Al Elliottcooperatives, nice pronunciation. Yeah, slightly different to the traditional pronunciation, but yeah, cooperatives.

Leanne ElliottCooperatives often build great workplace cultures. And we will also be exploring some recent initiatives in the world of men's mental health. And of course, as Al just said, our weekly surgery will come as well. Um, of course Questions that I will answer, not about using mics or pronouncing the word cooperative.

Al ElliottIn our weekly surgery, we talk creepy bosses, easing into a manager role after a promotion, and mini surveys for managers who care about their team. Plus, we have highlights from a recent podcast episode around burnout, where Jeremy Clyne from Change Life Work podcast interviewed 2 incredible guests about burnout. Those guests were Al and Leanne Elliott.

Leanne ElliottIt was us!

Al ElliottIt was us! It was us! Yeah, it was us. So we've got a little clip from that. Later on, Leanne, I think it's your favorite time of the week.

Leanne ElliottIt is time for the news roundup. Al, cue the jingle.

Al ElliottWhat you got, Lee?

Leanne ElliottWell, I may have been accused in the past of unfairly branding Elon Musk as a psychopath. Well, yes, and, and, but to be fair, a lot of that was thanks to an earlier episode of the show. I mean, if you did actually listen to episode 14, you'll know that I was simply making the point that Elon Musk seems to exhibit some some dark side personality traits that are modeled on psychopathic tendencies, and if left unchecked, could lead to his demise, as it has with many other leaders. I was just stating facts, Al.

Al ElliottYes, you were spitting facts, as the kids say.

Leanne ElliottBut it seems the tide may actually be turning on Elon Musk's tyrannical reign at the top of the tech food chain. A Business Insider article this week caught my eye. Asana CEO Justin Moskovitz Have I said that right, Al?

Al ElliottLet's say Moskovitz. That sounds, that sounds more like it. Yeah, go on.

Leanne ElliottSo Dustin has publicly accused Tesla of misleading consumers on a massive scale, comparing it to the infamous Enron scandal. So on a post made on Threads, of course, Dustin claims that Tesla has been dishonest about the capabilities of its Full Self-Driving software and the actual vehicle ranges, suggesting that these discrepancies could lead to significant legal and ethical issues for Tesla. So while the co-founder of Facebook— if you didn't know before I did a sign-on, he did Facebook too. I think he was the main one that kind of sued, um, your man, wasn't he?

Al ElliottWe have to— I'm gonna have to watch The Social Network.

Leanne ElliottYeah, watch the movie again, it's quite good. So while Justin didn't— Justin, Dustin, I'm getting confused now because I'm thinking of Justin Timberlake who was in the film Social Network. Yes, Dustin. So Dustin did not provide detailed evidence for his allegations, but he did share graphs, he shared data, Al, which he argues indicate deceptive practices by Tesla. He did make the stark comparison to Enron, the big energy giant that collapsed in 2001. If you've never heard that, go look it up. And basically said that Tesla could face a similar fate if the issues he highlighted are proven true. So while Tesla spokespeople have not formally commented on the allegations, Elon Musk has of course responded by making derogatory remarks towards Justin on Twitter or X. Musk did later issue a backhanded apology whilst of course continuing to criticize and labeling Justin as misguided and overly critical. So yeah, I mean, I'm sure you've been following this in the news. This confrontation does come, uh, amidst lots of other legal challenges and investigations that Tesla are going through at the moment, including probes by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Securities and Exchange Commission Concerning the marketing and reliability of Tesla's driving assistance technology. There's also a lawsuit going on. So yeah, I mean, Justin has been a longtime critic of Elon Musk's management style and the valuation of his companies, and does suggest that Tesla and SpaceX are overhyped. And what I agree particularly with, that Elon Musk's leadership is overglorified.

Al ElliottHmm. Perhaps the cynical Al might be looking and going, well, Threads isn't doing that well, so perhaps it's just a way to get more people to go, oh, I might join Threads so I can follow this thread of conversation. So there's always that. However, Musk has had beef with pretty much everyone. He seems like a tough guy to get on with. I mean, there is that thought, and I do subscribe to this, that behind every fortune is a lie. And I don't mean that like in a nefarious sense. I just mean that I think that every fortune— someone, if someone makes a lot of money, and myself included, you've fudged the rules at some point. And, uh, yes, that's me publicly coming out as being a fudger. That's probably not what I really meant, was it? But moving on. So I think so.

Leanne ElliottSo now you've come out, Al.

Al ElliottSo anyway, fudging aside, um, I think that yes, that's fine. There might be a small portion of like, oh, we overexaggerated, but overexaggerated the, the range of the vehicle. But I've seen this like quite a lot independently on different things. Sales are down, uh, people don't seem very happy with it. It was an incredible machine when it came out, but, you know, can you really believe it was as good as, as he makes out? Perhaps not.

Leanne ElliottThere's also engineers, aren't there, that have left Tesla and now talking out about the massive safety concerns they have and may have been exited from the business rather than voluntarily leaving. It makes me uncomfortable because I can't— it's not a stretch, is it? You know, you've got somebody like Elon Musk who deals with the Twitter layoffs in the way he did, who deals with people on Twitter the way he does, that is so grandiose in his, in his beliefs about his own capability and his own ability to change the world. It's not a stretch to think he's gonna make that freaking happen. It is like Elizabeth Holmes. It was that idea that if I just make this other lie, then it's okay because we'll make it up in the next one, or make this lie, we'll make it up again. So it makes no surprise to me. And if you have listened to episode 14 of, of this show, not a different one, of this show, then we did dive into the dark side personality traits as assessed by an expert in the Hogan Development Survey. And very, I think overwhelmingly, we agreed that Elon Musk was probably a bad day from derailing. So do go and listen to that if you're interested.

Al ElliottIn his defence, perhaps he's not. Perhaps he's just doing the best he can with what he's got.

Leanne ElliottBut sure, Hitler had a similar worldview.

Al ElliottGoodness. Well, that went, that went to Hitler much quicker than I expected.

Leanne ElliottIt always ends up in Hitler, didn't it? I just needed to get there quicker.

Al ElliottI'm going to move on from fudging, being a fudger and Hitler, to go— God, I don't know whether I'm gonna have to like edit that out. That's one of those things that's just gonna get us deranked or something. Anyway, so let me talk about something I saw today, which was a Spanish company called the Mondragón Corporation. I'm sorry. Probably a terrible pronunciation. Um, it's the largest industrial cooperative in the world. It's based in the Basque Country in Spain. Excellent wine in the Basque Country. Go and try Txakoli, spelled with an X. And I also think that Albariño is from the Basque Country.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottExcellent wines. Anyway, so this was founded in about 1956, so it's not a new company. It grew from a socially engaged Catholic movement started by a Basque clerk, or cleric, sorry. What's the difference between cleric and clerk?

Leanne ElliottI don't know. Anyway, well, we'll Google that later. Yeah, I think we're asking about words. You said not to ask me about words.

Al ElliottAnyway, so it's family—

Leanne ElliottQuotient. I'm still getting over quotient.

Al ElliottThe idea is that the employees own part of the enterprises and they share in both the profit and the risks. If you're from the UK, you'll be aware of John Lewis, which is a very similar kind of thing. One of the reasons why John Lewis did so well over the pandemic was because everyone owned a little small part of it. Now there is a company, there's a supermarket. If you've ever been on holiday to Spain, you might have seen a supermarket called Eroski or Eroski. We used to call it erotic because it used to make us chuckle. And it's one of those supermarkets where it's part of the whole chain. So everyone who works in the supermarket owns a small part of Eroski. The whole— I mean, I like this because you've got this sort of community, you've got this commitment, you've got this sort of workers are supporting each other and they're also supporting the cooperative. Incidentally, In Spain, cooperatives are quite a big thing because most of the olive oil that comes, that, that you buy on the shelves coming from Spain is actually from a, from an olive oil cooperative. So there is a lady called Marisa Fernandez, um, who is part of the chain. She's been, I think, I think if I remember it from the story, it was about 30 years she's worked there. Um, and when her husband sadly passed away from cancer, then her employer Eroski, which is part of this Mondragón Corporation, um, they were really, really good with helping her around shifts, making sure she was paid for if she wanted time off. And just really, just really supportive and just doing that like the thing that most people should be doing, but most companies don't. Probably Elon doesn't, I wouldn't imagine. And so when fast forward maybe about 10-15 years and Eroski are opening a new store, there's some store renovations, things aren't going that well. And so Marisa actually went and volunteered for extra shifts during the store renovations to help them get back and open on time, which was really lovely because it's showing that she really cares about the cooperative and the cooperative cares about The thing is, is I see so many different things where it's like, why can't we be more like the Mediterraneans?

Leanne ElliottWhy can't we, you know, you know, we work to live, not live to work. And even, even all the stuff around the Mediterranean diet and do the Mediterranean diet and you'll live until you're 120. The reason people live until they're 120 is because they do prioritize life over work, because they work for organizations that prioritize their whole selves, their family, their Things that they experience outside of work. And we also know as well from that Harvard study that relationships are the one thing that keeps us alive longer than anything else. And that's what you're building here in work, these relationships where you're going to have each other's back. You can't just pick up these lessons and go, oh, have a Mediterranean diet, you'll live to 100, or let's change the food in the, in the, in the business cafeteria, the head office cafeteria, to Mediterranean food. That'll help people. No, it's part of a whole holistic thing. It's part of a culture. And your whole culture needs to, needs to live and breathe these things. It's freaking yoga at lunch, isn't it? Do you know what I mean?

Al ElliottAnyway, what else you got, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, talking about, about health, an article about men's mental health in the UK did, I did catch my eye this week, um, and I wanted to share it so we could talk about it and maybe help raise some, some awareness as we, as we have across the, the podcast. But, um, it basically reported that Um, if you're not sure about statistics of, of suicide in the UK, about 6,500 people died from suicide in the UK last year. That number has been steadily increasing for the last 10 years, and of those 6,500 people, 75% are men. Mental health— men's mental health in the UK is unacceptably poor. So in East Sussex, an even more concerning trend has emerged in terms of the suicide rate amongst men aged 30 to 59. And they are consistently surpassing the national average for England. So more men in that part of the country are choosing suicide. So in response, public health officials are intensifying their focus on the mental health of men in the coastal towns of Hastings and St. Leonards. So this initiative follows a 2021 report from the Chief Medical Officer that highlighted mental health challenges in coastal communities are unique and need Uh, people need support within. That's including things like heightened feelings of isolation and loneliness. So yes, East Sussex are running regular sessions aimed at encouraging men to openly discuss their problems. The idea is to emphasize the broader impacts of mental health issues and does note that poor mental health not only affects the individual but does have a significant repercussion on their families, their communities, their own personal prospects, and of course the economy as well, if we want to be commercial about this. So events are being organized, people are being encouraged to share this article, encourage discussions on topics like healthy masculinity and connecting with nature and other things we can do to improve our mental well-being. Regular listeners will know that Al and I met volunteering for the Samaritans, which is a suicide prevention charity, and it is a mission that's very close to both our hearts. And throughout the podcast, we have made a conscious effort to talk about mental health, and within that, the lived experiences of men and men's mental health, including a phenomenal episode with Jim Young back in, back in the day, episode 22, The Untold Heartbreak of Male Leaders. Whether you're a man, whether you're a woman, however you identify, this is not an episode that you want to skip. It is heavy, so trigger warning on that, but it is such an important conversation and one that requires, requires listening to. So yeah, huge respect to East Sussex, not only for prioritizing mental health, um, but prioritizing men's mental health and publicizing it too. Bravo.

Al ElliottYeah, well done, well done. Uh, episode 22 with Jim Young was the— I think it still remains the only episode where, um, I don't appear in anything, any part of it apart from the actual core interview. Um, and it was, uh, yeah, it was, it was quite revealing, that chat with Jim.

Leanne ElliottIt's the only linear interview we've ever Published on the podcast.

Al ElliottThere you go.

Leanne ElliottBecause it required no, no edit. No edit.

Al ElliottSo definitely spin back to episode 22 and have a listen to that. As Leanne says, it's a tough, it's a tough listen, but it's me and Jim just being real honest about all kinds of crap, really. I mean, just as a person in that, in that age group that you're talking about there, yes, I can totally see why people would be because If there's 2 aspects to that, I think first of all, if you're of that age, then you're probably brought up— you're going to be Gen X or very, very young boomer. Um, you're going to be brought up with the idea that you should be— you're the man, you should be doing stuff, you should be bringing the money in, you should be going to succeed. There's also a huge amount of peer pressure there to succeed. I know that I'm okay with it now, but when we first started our journey moving around, um, around the world, which we've been doing for about 11 years now. Um, I was— I'd go and speak to people, my friends, and they'd be like, they've got a brand new Range Rover, they've built their business, they've got a, you know, they're doing 100 grand a year. At the time I was like, no, I'm not earning anywhere near that. And I just felt hugely like, like Leanne always talks about, a bit of shame around, am I ruining, am I wasting my life? The fact is, I look back and I'm like, no, it was fantastic. I spent an amazing time traveling around the world, 46 different countries with my best friend.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottMy co-host and my business partner, Leanne, and my wife, obviously. And, um, and so, yeah, it's just been— I think I can see where the pressures come from. I also think there's a second aspect. You get to that age and if you haven't achieved something, you think, shit, what have I done with my life? And what am I going to do in my life? Perhaps you've got kids who are just starting to leave home. You feel empty. So I think there's, there's so much going on around there. And so bravo to Hastings and— was it Hastings and East Sussex?

Leanne ElliottYeah. St. Leonard.

Al ElliottSt. Leonard. Well done to the guys down there, uh, who are putting some, some stuff in place. And, uh, let's hope that, that it makes a difference. And if you are suffering, if you do, if anything I've just said that resonates with you and you haven't got anyone in your life you can talk to, then no matter where you are in the world, you can email Samaritans, joe@samaritans.org, link in the show notes. Um, and someone will sit there, will reply to you and talk to you over email about how you're feeling. And if you do feel suicidal, you can definitely say that. Mm-hmm. And they will not try and talk you out of it. They will just ask you a bit more about it. So it's a huge and amazing service. Anyway, part of mental health issues can be burnout. And as we alluded to before, we appeared on the Change Work Life podcast talking exclusively about burnout. Leanne was very honest about her experience of burnout, and obviously I gave my experience of being Leanne's partner at the time, being Leanne's husband at the time, not really knowing what to do. Here's a really short clip. Uh, if you like this, I suggest you go and listen to the full episode. To the external observer, so, you know, the, the concerned husband, wife, work colleague, what sort of things might they see in someone who is possibly starting to experience burnout?

Leanne ElliottChanges in behaviour, changes in mood, mood swings, unpredictability, irritability. are all going to be signs that somebody is potentially struggling. Detachment from things that they used to enjoy— hobbies, people, socializing, friends, family— not wanting to go to places they used to go to. That sense of wanting to, to isolate socially is a big, a big red flag usually. And I think any signs that might I guess other things could be a lack of sleep, maybe looking for those more physiological symptoms. Again, with caution, because of course it could be, could be something else. But yeah, a lack of insomnia, not being able to sleep, hypersomnia, wanting to sleep all the time, changes in appetite, that type of thing can, can be a sign as well. There's, there's quite a lot actually. If you— and there's some great resource, just, you know, Google it, you'll find lots of different sites. Positivepsychology.com is One of my favorites to just give you those kind of, kind of red flags. But I think changes— it's as simple as someone going, they're just not themselves. And there's a stacking number of ways that they are, they are not the person that, that you know and love.

Al ElliottAnd I think also, like Leanne alluded to before, the not wanting to dream anymore. So whether it's you just go, what are we doing at the weekend? Or what are your goals for 2024, 2025? You know, if someone's unable to answer those, it goes, I just haven't got the time to think about that right now. That from a personal point of view, I noticed that in Leanne when she was burnt out, that she just wouldn't. And we didn't talk about this on the podcast, was that she just wasn't— she just got irate when I said to her, so what are we going to do, you know, next year? Which was a couple of years ago. What are we going to do next year? Where are we going to live? What do you want to see? And she's like, I just don't want to talk about it. Which is not like Leanne. As I think you mentioned before, we travel and we have traveled full-time for 10 years. So we basically had a new address every 3 months. And this was just like Leanne, I'm just not interested. And so I think if anyone you are talking to Your partner, spouse, kids, friends. And like Leanne says, they've not— they feel like they're— they've not got the shine on the things they used to like, but also they don't want to dream anymore. Is probably, from my personal point of view or my personal experience, it was, it was a sign that Leanne was, was burnt out.

Leanne ElliottJeremy was an exceptional interviewer, and it was a really great conversation. His show is really great as well. He explores lots of different topics around mental health, around career transitions. So much. And it's an established podcast as well, lots and lots of episodes. So do go and check out Change Work Life Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

Al ElliottAfter this short break, come back to us and join us for the weekly Workplace Surgery where Leanne will be answering your workplace questions. See you in just a second.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Seamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.

Leanne ElliottSo come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. Let's kick off the weekly workplace surgery with the first question. Leanne, are you ready?

Leanne ElliottContender!

Al ElliottOn my first whistle.

Leanne ElliottI am ready.

Al ElliottCool. Okay. By the way, if you want, if you have a question you want to ask me to ask Leanne, um, links in the show notes. You can email us and, uh, you can make it anonymous if you want. We have 2 anonymous and 1 non-anonymous. Anonymous. Anomonom. Anyway, so question number 1. I'm chuckling because I've already seen question number 1 and you haven't. And so I think, I think, um, I think you're gonna like it. So Anonymous writes, basically, my boss is an old-school guy who thinks you should be honored to work in the job and should do anything for it. We've had several different disagreements recently, after which we met and he was trying to patch things up, but he ended it with, he said, well, tell me, who are your stakeholders? And I said, the customers and the people we help. He said, I'm your stakeholder and you need to keep Daddy happy.

Leanne ElliottNo.

Al ElliottThis is what they said.

Leanne ElliottNo, he didn't.

Al ElliottLet me just finish off. I'm also enjoying how, uh, how I made that even more creepy by getting close to the microphone. I instantly felt super icky and made an excuse to leave. Should I say something to him or just pass this off as a joke that went wrong? Just to remind you, I'm your stakeholder and you need to keep Daddy happy. Oh my God. I'm just gonna pass Leanne the bin so she can vomit in it.

Leanne ElliottThat's horrific. Run, run as fast and far away as you can from this man. He sounds— even if it was a joke, it's not a funny one. It's wildly inappropriate, and actually it sounds more, more predatory than, than funny. Um, oh, okay. It's not, it's not okay. It's really not okay.

Al ElliottIf you can see Leanne, which you can't, but she's got it literally got her hands over her face going, oh my God.

Leanne ElliottIt's really not okay. I can't stress it enough. That is not acceptable. That is not acceptable in the workplace. I think there's, there's 3 options, right? You either confront the person, but you've got to ask yourself, what, what is this person honestly gonna learn or take away from that interaction? Probably not. And you're probably just gonna make your life a bit harder. You go to HR, assuming you're company is big enough to have an HR representative in it, you report it, you go down the formal routes, and maybe that will help get through to him that at least even if he thinks it's, it's rubbish, he, he won't use language like that in the workplace anymore. Icky doesn't come close to the feeling that you— I'd imagine you're experiencing. It's just— I'd feel, I'd feel a bit violated. I'd feel a bit Probably a lot embarrassed. I'd feel dirty, you know. And I think you've— they've left a couple of clues here that just makes me think that this culture is not your vibe, my friend. One, because of that person. And 2, you said, you know, who are your stakeholders? The customers, the people trying to help. I'm your stakeholder too. Yes, of course it is. But ultimately, people have to agree on who the number one stakeholder is in an organization. Famously, Virgin prioritize their people. Other organizations famously prioritize as their customer. If you're having this mismatch already in terms of who you think you're helping, who it sounds like you want to be helping, and what your leader is saying you need to be doing in a disgusting way, my thought would be this is not the company long term for you. I know the climate is hard right now, but get that resume up to date, get on LinkedIn, get networking, get the hell out of there. And then if you have the— if you have the means and the ability to do report it to somebody in a position of authority in terms of people and culture. Because if that person is saying this to you, I— it makes me sick to my stomach to think of what else they could potentially be doing to more vulnerable people within that organization.

Al ElliottBravo, bravo. There's nothing else to add to that. That was superbly handled. And, um, yes, I apologize for my, uh, for my creepiness.

Leanne ElliottThat needs a trigger warning next time. Oh my God.

Al ElliottSo question number 2 is from Amanda Wilcox, which is— who's the operations director at MAP, which is an outsourced accountancy firm based in the UK, growing pretty quickly. Here's the question. One of our managers has asked us to create a survey for him to get specific feedback on him as a manager from his team. Currently, he's got 8 people in his team. He'll be 10 by the summer, which is excellent. I was going to start looking around for some ideas on questions, but you, Leanne, are probably the best person to ask about this. Do you have anything, or could you point me in the direction of some content that would be useful in creating this survey?

Leanne ElliottHi, Amanda. Thanks for your question. I guess first point, how cool is this person, this manager that wants to invest in their own self-development and train themselves? If they're, if that, yeah, why not? Excellent. I'd say, yeah, hold on to this person very, very tightly. I do have some ideas. Of course, it depends You know, I have to say that I'm legally obligated, I think, as a psychologist, to say it depends without more information, because I guess it depends on what this individual wants from the data and what they want to do with the data. But the vibe I'm getting is very much that this person wants to develop their own capability in a way that's going to have a positive impact on their team. So with that in mind, I would probably go down the kind of the team data route around wellbeing engagement type thing. Um, HSE management standards. We've talked about this a couple of times on the show before. It's a really good tool, it's completely free, it's 35 questions, so it's pretty light touch, and it'll give you some really lovely data that, um, this manager can work with in terms of the demands on the team, the support they're given, the control they feel in their role, the clarity they have on their role, the relationships in the team, um, and how change is managed within the team. All things that we know are linked to positive performance, positive wellbeing, positive engagement. So, from a very practical sense, that'll probably give the manager some really good things to work with. Similarly, if you wanted to, if your 35 questions feels a bit too much, the Workplace Wellbeing Question Bank, pretty similar to the HSE, a lot more flexible. It's basically a list of about, I think it's about 100-odd validated questions that have come from surveys where they have been proven to measure the thing they're meant to measure. Um, that's also completely free. You can download it and you can pick and choose whatever you want. So you could do 5 questions, you could do 10 questions. There's also some other, um, that is a bit more wellbeing-focused in there as well. Some categories are. Um, so if you want to dive into more of the health outcomes, you can do that too. And then finally, I'd say that's assuming the person wants to get data from the team. If they actually want data about themselves and their behaviours and competencies as a manager, there is a fabulous tool called The Real World Leader. It really is kind of the chef's kiss of management development psychometrics. It's 100% behavior-based. It is built by psychologists, some of the leading thought leaders on leadership. There's a lot of leading there. But yeah, basically the best of the best leadership researchers have developed this tool. I've used it personally. It does go down really well in terms of development conversations. Downside, it is paid for. It does require at least 90 minutes of coaching from a qualified facilitator to deliver those results. And off the top of my head, that's usually somewhere in the ballpark of about £200-£250 including the cost of the tool. But it's really— it's a really good one. So if you've got a bit of money to invest, I would go with that. Otherwise, I would look at more kind of team-based psychometrics to give this person the tools they need in any scenario. I would always recommend that you pay for a couple of hours coaching for this person so they can use the results, they can reflect on them and set action plans from it. That's going to facilitate the improvement and change that they're clearly looking for. So whatever option you choose, I would say to throw in a couple of coaching sessions with that too.

Al ElliottLove it, love it. Do they need to think about anonymity in terms of like such a small group of people asking this, or is that different to, to culture workplace surveys?

Leanne ElliottGood question. I mean, typically, yeah, we want, we want 10 people to be able to, be able to provide the Um, reassurance around confidentiality and anonymity. That said, because it's a team, it's a specific team being asked to respond to it, they know that it's only their view that's going to be captured and recorded. So in terms of somebody opting in, they're going to know that anyway. And, and I guess the sentiment behind it is going to be, we want, you know, we want to do this to, to inform development and improve. Um, it should still be confidential, whatever questions you choose. I would suggest putting that into something like Google. forms where it's not going to collect an email address, um, so you can be anonymous, and it should be voluntary. So if people don't want to do it, you shouldn't be forcing them.

Al ElliottGood tips, good tips. And what you said there, £250-ish, what's that, about $300 US? Um, that seems like a bargain to me. We're not affiliated in any way in the Real World Group, but, um, that doesn't sound like— I thought if you were going to say £2,000, I'm like, well, that requires a bit of thought. But if you've got 10 people under you Then, you know, that's a tiny percentage of your, of your monthly wage bill. So good for you. Good answer. You ready for question number 3?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottOkay. So this one is, I like this one. Okay. I like this one. You'll see why. I recently got promoted to a team leader position and I'm facing challenges with my new team. They've been together for a long time and I'm having trouble seeing them or them seeing me as their leader rather than just another peer. So, I think the full part of this was that this person had been on the team, they'd joined the team, and now they're promoted to manage the team. Have you got any tips on how to establish authority without coming off as overbearing? Now, you'll see why, because I think there's a few little avenues you can go down with this, particularly with the, uh, the last line and the use of the word authority. Leah, go.

Leanne ElliottI agree with you, that word authority, um, concerns me a little bit. It's not really about— great managers aren't necessarily about hierarchy and authority. It's about enablement and empowerment. Probably the easiest thing you could do is just sit down one-to-one with every single person on that team and go, I know how hard it is. I've been there and done it alongside you. These are the things that used to really annoy me and I'd like to change, but I'd like to sense-check those with you. Are they things that would make your, your world easier? What else could I be doing to make your job easier? And facilitate that. People are always going to struggle with that shift in, in relationship, and I've been there. I've worked in organizations where one of my peers has become my boss. I've also worked in a situation where one of my peers, I've become their boss. Hi, Alec, how are you doing? And it is, it is a, it is a strange dynamic, but ultimately it's one that, that in both those scenarios, the transition was quite simple because it was just a human adult-to-adult relationship. It was like What do you need? This. Let me get it for you. What do you need? This. Oh, it's a bit tricky at the moment with budget constraints, but let me see what else I could do. That's it. So don't worry about authority. Don't worry about being liked because people will like you if they make your life— if you make their life easier. And even if they won't like you, they'll respect you. And that's what you should be aiming for, not authority, respect.

Al Elliott100%. I think that it seems from the small amount that we've got from this question, That this person seems to fundamentally misunderstood what management actually is. And that's fair because I'm not, there's not criticism. I think anyone who's, who's not met Leanne and not heard her version of what a great manager is probably thinks a manager is someone who walks into a room and goes, you do this, you do this. I'm gonna go to my office and, uh, um, and, and I was about to say something really rude then. I meant go read.

Leanne ElliottDaddy.

Al ElliottYeah. Read, read the paper. Um, whereas what Leanne's basically, the way that Leanne defines management is that they, a manager almost works for their team. Like their team is the manager's boss. And so you just sit down and go, how can I make your life easier? What can I actually do to make your job easier? Um, and come to me with problems and I will do my best to solve them. Leanne always talks and has talked quite emotionally actually before about one of her managers who was the best person, the best manager in the world, and possibly the best man that ever lived, uh, John. Um, I will put a link in the show notes. Definitely go back and listen to her story. I think it's around Christmas time where Leanne talks all about John and how amazing he was. But John did exactly that, and I never met him, but the way that Leanne would describe him— John would sit down with Leanne, and John was fairly high up, he was like second in the company, I think— and he'd sit down and go, Leanne, how can I make your job easier? Let's go through all of the individual aspects of your job each month and go, is there anything you're struggling, any roadblocks?

Leanne ElliottMore than that, he talked to me regularly, talked to me weekly. I'd probably talk to him every day about various bits and pieces, not crisis stuff, but just kind of checking in. You all right? What's occurring? Um, but yeah, at least, at least once a month, but probably more than likely once a fortnight. He did take a very kind of a very practical angle to the conversation, but he'd take it one step further and he actually sat down with my members of staff every quarter to ask those questions. So, you know, these, you know, people sitting with the, you know, one of the directors of the company, 2 steps above them, but he'd take that time to do it. And that was, that, that was one of most powerful drivers of culture within that contract, because it demonstrated that we all— the management team cares. Because not only do I want to try and make your life easier, the director of the contract wants to try and make your life easier. It can be a misunderstanding that how do I make your life easier means that you're going to be a walkover, it means that you're going to be soft, it means that you're going to be too nice, it means that you can't have these performance-driven conversations. And that's not the case at all, because if you couple that— what is the term? Is empathic concern. How do I make your life easier? If you couple that with absolute clarity around individual roles and in terms of how that role contributes to mission delivery metrically, so whether it's a sales number, whether it's an administrative thing, whether it's an efficiency thing, if you've got your KPIs in place, you're working with your team members to help them hit those KPIs, and they're not hitting them.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd you're then saying, we didn't hit that. What happened? What can we do differently? Was it circumstance? Was it some support you need, some training you need? And that continues to happen, that they don't hit their metrics, then yeah, you are going to have a difficult conversation. That person is probably going to be performance managed out of the business, but that won't come as a surprise to the person. That will, that will be very obvious that that constructive conversation is, is happening. And speaking of this, you know, this contract, I remember people exiting the business who would continue to be very good friends with the rest of the team and the managers on the contract because it was done in a humane, clear, supportive way. It's like we talked about PIPs a few, a few episodes ago as to if they're good. If they're executed well, then they are. So, um, yeah, I think ultimately probably needs some training. Get yourself on some training. Go and look at Dave Klein's course. That's probably a really good start.

Al ElliottThat really is. Yep. So That is the end of another Tuesday episode. If you haven't enjoyed it, then let us know privately. If you have enjoyed it, then tell the world. No, seriously, you can't— you couldn't tell us, give us any kind of feedback. Go on to LinkedIn and you'll search for Truth, Lies and Work and you'll find Leanne there. Actually, properly Leanne, not like our assistant or AI or anything.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottIt'll be actually Leanne answering your, answering your queries and questions. If you have a question for next week, then check out the show notes. You'll find a way to get in touch. Anything else to add, I don't think so.

Leanne ElliottIf you do have a question, um, about work or indeed about podcasting, it's not just constrained to workplace culture. If you want to know what makes a great interview, how to listen better, or how to produce a great podcast, maybe we can throw some questions towards Al.

Al ElliottOh, well, I'm not sure I like that idea. I think you better go quickly. I might cut that bit out and edit. So we'll see you next week, guys.

Leanne ElliottBye-bye.

Al ElliottAfter this very short break, you'll join us for a weekly workplace surgery where I'll be answering— well, no, I won't be. Sorry. If this is your first time listening on a Tuesday, then this is all about, uh, the low—