Episode 97 · 14 May 2024 · 42:47

97: McKinsey's Copenhagen clash, AI hiring drama, PLUS motivating stagnant teams & more - This Week in Work 14th May 2024

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News Roundup: McKinsey's Copenhagen clash
news roundup#news #mckinsey #copenhagen #workplace
AI in recruitment: a flawed future?
news roundup#ai #recruitment #hiring #flawed-future
The homemaker pay gap: a listener's insight
news roundup#pay-gap #homemaker #listener-insight
Workplace Surgery intro
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery #advice #intro
Workplace Surgery: motivating stagnant teams
workplace surgery#motivation #stagnant-teams #team-management
Workplace Surgery: evolving company culture
workplace surgery#company-culture #consultancy #evolution
Workplace Surgery: setting boundaries and preventing burnout
workplace surgery#boundaries #burnout #prevention

Show notes

McKinsey's Copenhagen Clash, AI Hiring Drama & Motivating Stagnant Teams — This Week in Work (14th May 2024)

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down McKinsey's controversial Copenhagen event, the flawed promise of AI in recruitment, and a listener's challenge to the "homemaker pay gap" conversation. Plus, in Workplace Surgery: motivating stagnant teams, evolving company culture, and setting boundaries before burnout.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. McKinsey's Copenhagen clash McKinsey faced backlash over a controversial corporate event in Copenhagen that left employees feeling misaligned with the firm's values. Leanne and Al unpack why this kind of incongruence — between what a company says and what it does — erodes trust and morale faster than almost anything else. Al's suggestion? They need a Big 4 consulting firm to come in and work through this one.

2. AI in recruitment — a flawed future? A new AI recruitment program promises to revolutionise hiring, but Al and Leanne are sceptical. While there's a place for online testing done well, the comparison problem is real: AI candidates are being judged against in-person or Zoom interviews, which isn't apples-to-apples. The science of reading behaviour — like eye movement — is not as simple as "look right = lying."

3. The homemaker pay gap — a listener's insight Following last week's episode on the pay gap, listener Alex wrote in with a powerful perspective: stay-at-home parents face miles more prejudice than people realise. Leanne and Al agree the conversation should be renamed — the parental pay gap or stay-at-home parent pay gap — because the current framing misses the full picture.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Motivation: "How do you keep people motivated when work goes quiet?" — Leanne points to the HSE Management Standards as a framework for diagnosing root causes, and Al reminds new managers that the job isn't always to add value — sometimes it's to remove obstacles.
Culture: "I built my consultancy from scratch — how do I keep the culture as we grow?" — Leanne's take, said with love: your culture is not the same as it was yesterday. The company isn't the same either. Growth changes culture by default; the question is whether you shape it or let it shape you.
Boundaries: "I'm feeding the business with my own time and energy — how do I stop?" — A very visual and emotive analogy from Leanne about what happens when you keep pouring from an empty cup, plus practical advice on outsourcing, development opportunities, and setting limits before burnout.

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more. Nice.

Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Work podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Workplace Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne.

Al ElliottI'm a business psychologist My name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science and psychology of work.

Al ElliottYes, we are. You might notice something slightly different this week if you're watching on YouTube or you're listening. If you're listening, you probably notice it as well. Leanne is not here. She is in the UK. You've been there for about 9 days now, haven't you?

Leanne ElliottAbout 2 and a half years, I think, at this point now. Um, no, it's been lovely. I've had so much fun getting to see people and see my friends and Definitely building up, using those relationships to build up my energy again. Um, so yeah, it's been fun, but it feels like I've been away for ages.

Al ElliottIt does, it does.

Leanne ElliottMiss you.

Al ElliottI know, I miss you too. And if there's, um, I'm gonna see you tomorrow, you come back tomorrow, which is, I'm very, very excited about. But anyway, so this week we're doing this remotely. Um, if you've not listened to a Tuesday episode before, if you haven't listened to the pod at all before, really quickly, Tuesday is a real sort of like loosey-goosey episode where Leanne and I'll chat about what's going on in the world of work, and then we have the world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Thursdays, they're about interviews. We tend to bring in external experts, we have a big interview with them, and then Leanne will generally translate anything which I don't understand from the interview.

Leanne ElliottSo actually, last Thursday, I'm, um, and usually because we're nerds, we usually sit down and listen to the podcast, don't we, afterwards, and just do some like constructive criticism, what we liked about it, what we could have done A bit better, generally just think how cool the guest was. But because I've been away and I've been so busy, I haven't listened to last Thursday's episode. Al, fill me in. Who did we have on?

Al ElliottWe had the incredible Todd Davis, who is the chief or the ex-chief people officer from Franklin Covey. Franklin Covey is the, uh, is the business that Dr. Covey jointly started. The story's in the podcast, but it's basically Dr. Covey wrote The 7 Habits of Highly Effective And we talk about that. We talk about whether it's still relevant. Todd knew Dr. Covey very, very well, worked with him for, I think, 20-odd years. But also, Franklin Covey is known as the most trusted leadership company in the world. So, it is quite a treat to speak to the Chief People Officer and see how they do things.

Leanne ElliottI can't wait to listen. I've already got it downloaded. I'm going to put it on, on the plane tomorrow.

Al ElliottFabulous. Next week, as in this Thursday, We've got Peter Dorrington from Anthrolytics. Leanne and Peter had a conversation maybe about a month ago, a month and a bit ago, Lee?

Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. Yep.

Al ElliottReally interesting guy. And she said, look, he's a data nerd. Al, you're an all-round nerd. You need to speak to Peter. So me and Peter, or Peter and I, had a conversation a couple of weeks ago, and it is fascinating. Basically, he uses data to predict when your people might be disengaged, when your people might quit, Whether they're happy, whether they're not. But we also got into so much more in there. It was genuinely about a 2-hour conversation, which we will potentially publish the entire conversation because I think nerds will love it. But we will bring it down to about 40 minutes for you for next Thursday.

Leanne ElliottGreat.

Al ElliottSo, Leanne, is it your favourite time of week?

Leanne ElliottIt is, Al. It's my favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup. Cue that jingle.

Al ElliottConsider it queued. What have you got, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottSo there I am, casually scrolling through my feed with my cup of tea. The tea, can't tell you how much tea I have drunk since I've been back, and it's been glorious. I've got loads to bring you back, don't worry. But anyway, there I am with my cup of tea, having looked through my newsfeed. I see a headline from Fortune that makes me want to go back to bed immediately, hide under a blanket in shame on behalf of McKinsey, who this article was about. Did you see it?

Al ElliottNo, I didn't.

Leanne ElliottAbout their event in Copenhagen. They had an event in Copenhagen. You've heard about McKinsey recently, haven't you? Like, they're going through a bit, like, a few layoffs. Um, they— we had that story on the news roundup a few weeks ago about how one of their employees was calling out their culture and their shady performance management practices. Well, it's a bit of kind of a pick-me-up, bringing, bringing everyone together. Um, they had a corporate getaway in, in Copenhagen, uh, last week, I think it was. So the usual motivational speeches, what, what the next few years looks like in theory. Good idea. You know, we've, we've Had a lot of layoffs. We reset the corporate culture. But they went down a route that makes me feel a bit icky in that alongside these motivational speeches from these leaders who've basically just been dickheads for a while— sorry, bleep that out— they had a playlist out featuring Eminem, Bob Marley, and Chumbawamba, as in, I get knocked down, but I get up again. You ain't ever gonna keep me down. Also, that song goes on to talk about quite, um, binge drinking in quite a big way, so I'm not really sure how appropriate it is. Um, it was aimed to boost morale. It was aimed to, you know, this is the, the turning page moment, as managing partner Bob Sternfeld described it. Um, so yeah, and, and by the sounds of it, it went down a bit like a lead balloon, if nothing else because it was leaked to the press and it was in Fortune magazine. Um, I think it's one of those things, you know, that if McKinsey were in a good place and they're treating their staff well, then these types of kind of— I guess it's a sense of positive— it's a positive affirmation in a sense, isn't it, having these types of, of, um, playlists in the store? So they're going from a positive psychology perspective, surviving to thriving, and this, this could work. There are some studies that have found that these types of self-declarations can boost self-confidence and morale, overcome negative thoughts, manage stress. But it's positive psychology. So it's like techniques, as I said, that gets to thriving. It's not going to help for things like burnout, disengage with toxic cultures. So it's going to feel, it's going to feel a bit of a slap in the face, I think, if you've been working really hard and it's like, it's okay guys, this Chumbawamba song off of the '90s will motivate you. I had that in mind as well, but half of their workforce have never even heard that song before. Anyway, the other thing I think is a problem with McKinsey right now, and I don't mean to be shady to McKinsey because I know everyone's having their challenges. It's a challenging economy, but equally, again, it's the tone. You're playing music like this and trying to make it all like cheesy and cool and we're all in this together. And you're also currently getting sued or under criminal investigation because of some of your consulting projects, mainly related to the opioid crisis.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottIt just doesn't quite feel right, does it? That, that misalignment, that incongruence, I just think is going to cause more problems. I think they missed the point. A catchy tune is not going to address the problems that McKinsey are currently having. So yeah, I think, um, I think, I think, yeah, they're just not— it's just not it. Al, thoughts?

Al ElliottI think they need to find a Big 4 consulting firm to come and really Work through this problem. Uh, they need some experts in that. Yeah, it does seem a little tone deaf. Um, I know Chumbawamba, I think, I think they were at the— they played them at the Tory party conference. That's the Conservative party conference, the right of politics. Um, and Chumbawamba were not happy about that. And I'm— I don't know whether they sued them or basically said, don't stop using our music. I don't know. Uh, so yeah, it's— it just feels really cheesy, like It's almost like an episode of The Office where someone's just gone, all right, right, well, let's get— let's just do a little bit of a— let's do a disco. That'll get everyone's, you know, never mind the fact that people are getting— I haven't got— I'm not getting paid enough. Never mind the fact that people are getting fired. Let's just, uh, let's just get some pizzas. Um, so yeah, it sounds like a big pile of horse shit.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I'm definitely putting it in the same category as, as pool table in the break room. Um, and I also, I hope that there will be some, some maybe some kind of TikTok coming out about this. I can see them around like, I take some whiskey drink, I drink some vodka drink, I drink some cider drink just to get through the freaking day at McKinsey right now, I think. Um, so yeah, interesting. Gave me, as the kids would say, the ick. Al, what have you got? The ick.

Al ElliottNot heard that before. Okay, so I was, I was, I think this was on something like boredpanda.com, which is a— it's my guilty pleasure. I like it in the morning when I wake up and I'm just having my cup of coffee. I like to scroll through Bored Panda because it tends to have some quite funny stuff on there. Uh, but this was, um, this was originally taken from Reddit, I'm pretty sure. And it's a guy who went for a video interview with something called HireVue, which is an online AI assessment tool. Now, as a nerd, I'm like, I, I approve as a, as a co-host of the UK's number one workplace Uh, podcast, I do not approve. Just— this is, this is, this is his experience. Um, to be prepared, I was directed to wear a suit with no tie. Very strange. Headphones were prohibited, and you had to, you had to have no external mic plugged in, which sounds really strange. Anyway, so basically I got there, quiet area. This all started, the system asked me 3 questions, and I had a minute to read each one and ready myself mentally before answering in 3 minutes or less. The system— this is weird, but I can see why— the system doesn't allow you to delete your recording and make additional attempts. And when answering your questions, you're instructed to maintain eye contact with the camera and speak as if you were talking to a human being. If your eye strays away from the camera too long or for too much, then your score will plummet because it's been programmed to assume that this action is a result of reading a response from a printed card. Or perhaps a device or something like that. If your score is above a certain number, so therefore you are progressing, then real humans can record your, your answers— can, sorry, review your recorded answers, and you may then progress to another human. But the other weird thing is, after the 5 questions, then this person was saying they were given 2 games to play. The first game was basically a numbers and letters game where they had to memorize it and punch it in a digital keypad. And then they got harder and they started going backwards and all this kind of stuff. This person basically did not enjoy the experience, and they've explained that if— well, their parting comment was, if this is recruitment, then it's bullshit. They are not a big fan. Now, I— what interests me about this is that I can kind of see it as a first line, not of defense, but a first line of recruitment. Okay, that makes sense to me. I can also see the rule that if you look away too much, then they're assuming you're reading from a card or something, or reading from your phone. I think that's fundamentally flawed because if you are, for example, Asperger's, autism, I know that that can mean that you're not quite as comfortable with eye contact, or perhaps you don't even notice that you're not got eye contact.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottI think it's flawed, but I think it's, I think it's a decent idea, but I don't think it's implemented well. I wanted to find out what you thought, Leigh.

Leanne ElliottI agree. I think there's, I think there's a place for these types of programs in the recruitment process, but I, I, I don't think it's been executed in a very good way. Like you say, it's, it's massively, there's big problems in terms of discrimination, um, in terms of, like you say, neurodiverse. There's plenty of other, you know, potentially physical disabilities that might mean that eye contact is difficult for some people. And also, just from a hearing perspective, we don't have conversations with people and stare them in the face and just keep talking and not look away. That's weird and creepy. We look up, we think, we— so I think that's flawed. I think in terms of the exercises themselves, if they're linked to the job, if they've been shown a job analysis to be required for the job as a way of assessing them, I think it frees up time massively.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne Elliottplenty of organizations that, that will use online testing, um, in some way and do it very effectively. My concern, as you say, is the lack of flexibility, the potential discrimination, the potential legal challenges as well. Um, and by the sound of it, it's not a very pleasant candidate experience, which particularly in, in this market where employees are, you know, will form opinions around an organization that will influence their decision to take a job or not. I think candidate experience in the recruitment process is getting more and more important. So yeah, I agree. I think it has a place. I think it's been executed very poorly. Um, yeah, try to do better, I think would be my summary.

Al ElliottNice summary. And I think also, if you, if you're not careful, you're comparing this AI to an in-person interview. So that's why you're saying they, you know, oh, they might be bringing notes, whatever. But actually, a lot of interviews go on over Zoom where you could easily have your notes on the screen. We use teleprompters. You're not using today, but when we're back in the office, we've got teleprompters in front of us. So we have our notes up and we're looking at the camera. So I can look you directly in the eye and also read my notes. So I think what they should be doing is comparing the AI experience to a Zoom experience.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottZoom interview rather than in an, you know, an in-person. And then they're not going to come up with this idea of you can't look, look away or anything like that. Because I don't know about you, but if—

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottWhat's, what's the science? If you look to the right, you're recalling, the left, you're lying, or something like that. Um, I can't remember which way around it is, but I know that I spend a lot of time when I'm thinking about things, I look over to the right and think about it. So yeah, flawed, as you say, flawed. But the nerd in me kind of likes it and thinks that, well, let's be honest, this is the worst it's going to be. So This hopefully is going to get better. What else you've seen this week, Lee?

Leanne ElliottWell, this next story actually comes off the back of the episode we did a couple of Thursdays ago with the co-founders of Ivy Jobs. You haven't listened to it yet? Ivy Jobs is a platform that is helping— what's designed to help women return to the work after an extended career break, typically from having children or raising a family. So we shared the story of, of the founders behind Ivy, what got them to, to launch their business, what the business is doing, what the future looks like. One of our lovely listeners left a comment on the YouTube about this episode, and I thought it was really insightful, really intelligent, and actually raised some issues that I feel that we failed to cover in the episode, Al.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottSo Alex said, totally agree on so many points. For example, women face miles more prejudice. A woman negotiating hard is just seen as difficult, whereas a man is seen as strong. A question for Lydia and Amelia, the co-founders of Ivory Jobs. Is it not more about the roles we find ourselves in and less so about being male or female? For example, I have a male friend who has been the stay-at-home figure in the household for over 15 years.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd he experiences everything here that typical stay-at-home people face. And yes, that tends to be more often women. He can't get back to anywhere near the level he was at, and I would wonder if he would face even more challenges in being a returner. Imagine the prejudice he will face. You can imagine the thoughts and dialogue. What kind of man stays at home to look after the kids? I myself have moved out of traditional employment, and I absolutely know that there isn't a chance on earth I'd be seen as a strong candidate Having been out of work for so long, I would have to return at a more junior level. Rather than using terms like motherhood penalty tax and the gender pay gap, why not see it as the homemaker pay gap in this section of the pay gap? I think using these terms also reinforces the lack of equality and diversity that ultimately impacts on all genders. It reinforces the fact that this is a female problem and I mean, we did, didn't we, when we're listening back, you know, we did say, you know, there are other minority groups that we've not really talked about in this episode. And I was kind of saying to you, Al, that I'm, I feel okay with that because it's, it's a majority problem at the moment in terms of the significant proportion of the workforce not being able to get back into work at the same level, at the same rate, having those challenges.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottFrom a commercial perspective as well, it makes sense to me that you pick your You pick your market, and Ivy have picked women, and there's nothing wrong with that. That said, I think Al has raised some really important points that actually— and I wonder as well whether it might create a bit more empathy around, around the gender pay gap, because it's actually a homemaker's pay gap. It's, it's a human issue. We're just perhaps a bit blinded by— By, by, yeah, the, the, the female aspect, which I get because so much progress is needed in terms of women, women's rights. So much is needed. Um, but yeah, I thought it was a really interesting thing that this could potentially— we, um, we didn't recognize this subset of people will be equally impacted who aren't women.

Al ElliottTotally agree. I think, um, it should be renamed the parental pay gap perhaps, or the stay-at-home parent pay gap. Um, that would just make perfect sense to me.

Leanne ElliottSo yeah, I think it's really interesting. Thank you so much to Alec for getting in touch and sharing, sharing your thoughts. And for anyone listening who has a similar thought listening to the podcast, um, that we've missed something, we've not raised an issue, um, that makes you, you know, maybe even a bit angry, get in touch, leave a comment, send us an email. We would always want to hear from people that we haven't, that feel we haven't represented their views and their needs in that conversation, because that is our aim to make sure that we are including every voice. In the conversations we have. So please do get in touch. As always, our links are in the show notes.

Al ElliottIn talking of, uh, of getting every— letting everyone have a voice, I think it's time for us to let HubSpot have a voice, who pay our bills. So we're going to take a short break. We're back in a second with the Weekly Workplace Surgery.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the We actually have a lot in common.

Al ElliottWe both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. Cut that out. Keep that in. So welcome back. This is the segment of the show where we have 3 questions for Leanne. So going on to question number 1, this is what this person writes. I was promoted to manager about 18 months ago, and I do love what I do, but I found it really tough to motivate my team. They're mostly great people, but the old manager was near retirement and would do the bare minimum they wanted. Um, just to coast through. When I took over, I wanted to shake things up. Now, I've read lots of books on management, but all the techniques I've tried so far either have had no effect or a very short-term effect. So things settled back down to how things were before. What am I doing wrong, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottI'm not sure because I'm not sure what things you're doing because you haven't mentioned what it is you're doing that hasn't worked. I think, what would I do if this was me in this situation? What would I do? I mean, any insights you can gather from your team, ideally anonymously, confidentially, might help you out here. So running some kind of employee voice insights type survey, you probably don't want anything too, too intensive, but even, um, I don't know, something like the HSE management standards that we talk about quite a bit. Um, gaining some kind of insights might be helpful because people might be willing to Maybe share what they're actually thinking and feeling anonymously, confidentially, more willingly than just through conversation.

Al ElliottCan I just ask you there, I'm sorry to interrupt, but can you just— you talked about the HSE standards, but if someone hasn't heard of those, then what would be the point of running the HSE standards survey?

Leanne ElliottSo the HSE management standards are basically 6 standards of management, behavioural environmental aspects of, of, um, team life that a manager can influence and provide that are positively related to, uh, employee wellbeing, reduced stress, which we also know increases motivation, productivity, performance, all that good stuff. Um, so by getting the insights, what you're going to learn is you're going to learn about how much control people feel in their roles, how relationships are with amongst the team.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottHow they feel about their role, how they feel about you as a manager, and it really just— how change is managed. It'll just give you an insight into all of the, what we call psychosocial factors of team life that could be impacting motivation. Because a lack of motivation is only going to be stemming from either a lack of purpose, a lack of meaning, or stress. You know, having that high workload, it can be hard to To stay motivated. I mean, the other thing to do as well, I think, is really if you can build these relationships with your team where they will tell you the roadblocks to their performance, to their jobs, just the things that make every day a bit harder. And as a manager, you can remove those things, then people are going to feel more motivated because they know if they put the effort in, they're going to get the results. If every day is a challenge, whether it be a really A really, you know, clunky process, whether it be the fact that they're commuting in peak time and that adds on an hour and a half to their day. There could be loads of different things from their work life to their commute to actually operationally how the organization is functioning, but it's just causing friction in terms of their day-to-day life. If you can remove them, it gives people more energy to invest in motivation. So I think whatever, whatever is happening is, you know, you say, I've tried everything, it's not working. Well, I think that will be because you're doing things that are having an impact. They are sparking some enthusiasm. But if fundamentally the environment they're in doesn't change, then people will go back to that kind of baseline state of performance and motivation. It's much like happiness, you know, we win, we win a prize at work and we're like, oh, that's exciting, and we'll peak. But if we're Yeah, we're still going to go back to that baseline of kind of our general happiness levels. So, I think it sounds like you're giving people peaks, you're giving people little, yeah, little nudges, little spikes of motivation, which is great. But it sounds like there's fundamentally something within the organization that isn't quite working.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottSo, my thought would be to figure that out, that root cause. And as I said, it's either going to be that they don't really feel any meaning or purpose in their work. So it's going to be about talking to people about what the organization's mission is, what they're contributing to in terms of their role and connecting those 2 things. So this is our mission, this is your role in helping us to deliver it. It's going to be down to workload, but also workload can be exasperated by, as I said, those clunky processes, those tasks that were necessary. So I think anything you can do to uncover that is going to give you the information that you need. So then that, you know, if you try something, you should be able to see where it's impacting, how it's impacting, and how well it works. Maybe you say, I'm trying everything and it is not working, or it only works for a little while. Having the data will help you actually assess how well it's working. And as always, you know, asking your people is really It's really important for building trust, for motivation. If people know that you're on their side, then, you know, then that's going to come through. And if they have had an old-school boss, they probably didn't do that. So it's probably going to take a bit of time for them to trust that actually you do want to change things and you do want to make it better. So I think your persistence is going to be really key here as well. But I would say, yeah, try and get some insights, trying to have those one-to-one conversations. Um, and, and just continue to do what you're doing with that data, um, backing you up. Continue to be curious, continue to experiment, and continue to invest your energy, um, in motivating.

Al ElliottSo, what's interesting is that a lot of new managers or junior managers seem to think that they should be adding stuff to the team, to be putting changes in place, but really it seems like the best thing to do is to take stuff away from it. Take the obstacles away from the team.

Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. I mean, one thing that I got on a contract once that was struggling a bit, and I was, I was not new to the business but new to that team, um, we had, we had basically a shitposting morning where it's like, tell me everything, tell me everything that's awful, everything that's awful about, about the customers, about the other leaders, about your job, about the office, about your computer, about your colleagues. Everything, anything that is pissing you off, I wanna know, and we're gonna moan about it, and we're gonna just get it all out. And the afternoon, cut off. You're not allowed to talk negatively about this anymore. We're now going to solutions mindset. So if you were the manager, how would you deal with that? How would you get rid of this problem? How would you make it better? And we come to some kind of group consensus around that change, which also then means that people are already bought in, bought in to the changes that you want to make, which are gonna make them much more effective, much more sustainable.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottThere is a risk, of course, that you're going to get people go, well, I'm not on board with this. And it's almost like, good, because if you're not with us to change this and make it better, we're better off without you. We're better off with you not being in the business right now. So it can help with that as well. But it's a bold move. And I'd say as well, to this person who asked the question, is make sure that you've got the back of your Or your senior leader has got your back. Are you talking to them? Are they providing you with recommendations or the resources you might need to, to dig into this a bit bigger? Because ultimately, you know, whatever change you want to make, and it sounds like you're going to have to make some kind of organizational change to, to lift this baseline level of motivation, you're going to need the backing of your senior leader to make this work. So that's the other thing as well, make sure you're getting the support.

Al ElliottQuestion number 2. I have built a smallish consultancy up from scratch where it was just me in my spare room to a proper office with 14 employees. But in the last 9 months, I just feel like we're not the same company anymore. Before we hired the last 2 people, we'd work on problems together, so everyone would pitch in if we had a sales presentation, and people were happy to stay late when required. Now, they— this person does say, note, I never made them stay late, they all volunteered. But since the last 2 people joined, things have changed dramatically. The office seems to have split into teams, 2 teams, where neither team wanted to help the other team. This is not the culture I imagined. How can I go back to the good old days?

Leanne ElliottLee. I say this with love. Your culture is not the same as it was yesterday. Your company is not the same. as it was yesterday. And if you want your company culture to stay the same, then don't grow your business. Have a microbusiness where you can have that control. 12 seems to be the magic number. I think it's Daniel Priestley that talks about this. 12 is a number it seems to then split up into, into smaller groups. Different doesn't mean worse. Different can mean good. Culture evolves. New people bring in new ideas, new thoughts, new ways of working to the business. If you're growing your business, you know, you know, as an entrepreneur, you're not going to have the same business yesterday as you do today, as you will tomorrow, because it evolves and it grows. And it's the same for team, it evolves and it grows. I think I've said this before, I think it's kind of like entrepreneurs, I understand you get so attached to your business, it is like your baby. And then all of a sudden your baby is a teenager and they don't want to play with you anymore. They don't want to hold your hand when they cross the street. They don't want you to brush their hair at night. That's just the way it is. And I think if you're, if you're serious about growing your business to a point where it is, it is that, that SME, it's not a microbusiness, um, then I think you have to, you have to let it go. You have to put it in that big red balloon and let it go. The culture that you want is not necessarily the culture that the business needs or the culture that you're people enjoy. It's, it's the principles, the foundational principles of your culture. You can control it in, in terms of being the same, um, but people are going to shape that, and good, you want people to shape that. So I think it always comes down to, I guess, the practical things. If you're, you're saying that your business isn't the same as it was, it doesn't feel like the same business It's not. That's just the reality of it. In terms of your values, have you looked at those since you started your business? Have they changed? Do they still resonate with the people that you have in your organization today? Do they still resonate with the customers you're working with today? I'd imagine they're different to the people you're working with initially. So reviewing those values to think, does this still represent the type of organizational culture that I want? In terms of, I don't mean overarching values or those underpinning company values. Um, if they don't, relook at them, revise them, do it in consultation with the people you have in your business. You say in terms of people staying late, I think— I'm not sure if this is a— I think it is a startup thing. I keep thinking people get very attached and very energetic in startup environments. I also just think the world has been moving on. You know, people have— are not as willing to invest as much time In, in their work beyond what they're contracted for and what they're paid for. I think this is where quiet quitting actually did some favors from an individual resilience and wellbeing perspective, because we're now setting some healthy boundaries. I shouldn't be working until 8 o'clock at night because I need that rest and recovery time. So I think maybe even switching that mindset and that actually, that as long as your people are doing what you need them to do, At the quality at which you need them to do it, within the timeframes you need them to do it, then yeah, they go home at 5 o'clock and they don't want to stay. So I think for me, it's, I'd relook at your values. I would do some consultation with your team in terms of how they see the culture, whether that be focus groups with them through discussion, if you just want to kind of keep it informal. You might also be getting to the point now actually where again, some employee insights might be useful, particularly if you're seeing people split off into teams and you're not as hands-on day-to-day with every member of the team, getting some insights into what your actual culture is can be really useful because it might be, and I've worked with clients before who felt that they feel detached from the culture, they feel that the culture's not right. And actually, when we've dived into it, they've got a lovely culture and their team love their culture. It's just that they've disconnected from it because, because of growth, because of circumstance, because of a whole variety of reasons.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottSo, it might actually just be looking at, if you've got the data that actually shows this is the culture you've got and actually people love it, it's finding ways for you to reconnect with that culture. Your team might be perfectly happy with it. And I think finally, you know, as an entrepreneur, it's getting to that point of, are you just feeling a lack of fulfillment because you're not getting your kicks from the work environment anymore? If you're an entrepreneur, you love being scrappy, you love that risk-taking, you love that innovation, you love that. that early day startup phase because that's what's in you, that's what motivates you, that's what brings you joy. The organization's now at a point where it needs a bit more stability, it does need a bit more formalization, it does need, um, you know, these things in place that might be better placed with a more typical operations director or CEO type role. You know, do you have a number 2 in your business who's going to get excited about that side of the business while you can go and innovate into products or services or customers. So it's like making sure, I think, that is it a cultural problem or is it that you're, you're detaching because you're not feeling as fulfilled in your role as a business owner of a larger business? Um, that would be my advice. Do some introspection and then talk to your team. But my suspicion would be it's your lack of current fulfillment that is potentially you're then projecting Great answer.

Al ElliottAnd as someone who has grown a business up to 25 employees, I did notice the change. You're exactly right. And Daniel's right, is around about employee 13, um, did notice a massive change. And yeah, I took it very personally. Question number 3. Hi, Leanne, I hope you can help. To be really frank, I feel like I'm drowning at work. Here's the background. Although my title is operations manager, I've been responsible for recruiting for a year now. Now, I don't mind it, but I'm getting to the point where I feel like I can't give it proper attention anymore. What I like about this is that I almost feel as the person's writing it, more and more things have just come out. So they say, my workload has massively increased. And as the person in charge of operations, it feels like everything that is not sales or finance is just dumped on my desk. I've been considering using a recruitment firm for my recruitment, but this is very expensive. I've heard some bad things about some of them. What should I do? Seems like a very open-ended question there, Leigh.

Leanne ElliottOh, um, yeah, again, without a bit more information context, you know what I'm like, I'm always like, it depends. I need a bit more, I need a bit more info, a bit, I need a bit more insight. But I guess off the surface of it, what would I, what would I do? I mean, I get it. Operations is— it is, you get so much piled on you. And I've worked with so many operations directors who feel the same because you're right, anything that's not sales, marketing, or finance, it's like, I'll give it, give it to the ops person, they'll do it. Um, it's an under-respected job, I think, operations. Um, I mean, I think that again, it sounds like your— if your workload is going up, it sounds like you're in a growing business. It sounds like business is going well. Or maybe business has gone badly and people have been let go and now you're picking up their workload. Either way, it sounds like your workload is not sustainable. And it sounds like you are, well, I think you did, did they use the word drowning?

Al ElliottYes.

Leanne ElliottUm, that's a very, that's a very visual and emotive, um, analogy, isn't it? That it sounds like you're just feeling like you're, you're drowning, then you can't breathe, then, then something needs to be done about it because Whatever scenario the business is in, if you burn out, then it's not going to be good for anyone. So I think the first thing is to probably— I know this is really difficult, but go through— if you can go through your day and just maybe just think about if you reflect at the end of the day on everything you've done that day and just make a list in terms of what has been productive use of my time today and perhaps what Was something I had to do today, but didn't require some— it to be done by an operations manager, senior member of staff. And I think just by doing that from a task perspective, you'll start to build a business case for potentially hiring some extra support. Because if it is an ops director, if you're spending the majority of time on what is actually admin tasks or something that, you know, a more junior role can do, then there's a business case then to hire that person in because you can divert your energy to more value-add activities in your business. Similarly, there might be technology that'll be able to help you with some of those things. Because I think once you've got that, it's going to require a conversation with the person above you to say, look, this is what's happening. This isn't working. It's no longer effective. I either need extra help or better technology or an outsourced service like recruitment. And it's going to give you some data to kind of build that business case up. Um, from a personal perspective, um, in terms of you, I think it's really important that you start to set yourself some boundaries as well whilst you're going through this transitional period to hopefully, you know, offload your, or reduce your workload a little bit, get some extra help in. Um, so I think, yeah, those boundaries, you know, I know it's hard when you've got so much to do, but, but trying to get home at a decent time, trying not to work into the night, trying to take your weekends. Making sure you're building that rest and recovery time. You know, as we've talked about rest and recovery, it's as much about the relaxation, but it's also about those recovery activities. Is that going walking with the dog? Is it cooking your favorite meal on a Saturday night? Is it going dancing with your girlfriends? You know, whatever it is, building those things in as well. Um, because it sounds as though you're on potentially that start of that downward spiral to what could end in burnout if you don't kind of nip this in the bud. Sooner rather than later. So yeah, I'd say that's the thing. If this is now, it's going to require action, because if you feel like you're drowning, this isn't going to get any better without action, without positive action. And you've taken positive action by asking the question in the first place. That's brilliant. You've, you know, put that out there. So I'd say from, from, yeah, from the job perspective, try to understand where your time is being spent, where it's not as productive, and what could potentially be carved out into another role within the business.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne Elliottgiven to other people in terms of development opportunities within the business, or indeed requires an outsourced service. And then from that, that individual perspective, try and set some boundaries for yourself, um, to, to hopefully, you know, give you— keep your energy resources going while you're going through this transition.

Al ElliottI suspect that everything you've said there, the person who's written this already probably knows, but have just not really admitted it to It's funny because we're, we're always very good at looking at other people and going, well, that's what's— what they're doing wrong, but we are hopeless at looking at ourselves. And so, um, what Leanne's just said there, I think, is you probably in your heart of hearts know that something needs to change. You probably in your heart of heart knows that this isn't sustainable over the next 10 years and something needs to happen. So it's not a question of going in which, which recruitment firm. It's like, I need to change something. And yes, so follow Leanne's advice. I think it's fantastic. And Leanne always says it depends, but then you do come out with some amazing, some amazing advice in there. I love what you said about that. That was absolutely fantastic.

Leanne ElliottWell, thank you. I mean, one— sorry, I was gonna follow that up quickly as well. What you can do while you're making that list, if you are worried that actually you're just not enjoying your job anymore, is once you've got all those tasks that you do, um, and this was, um, this is a tip shared with me by a career coach who's coming on the show very soon. I've seen a lot of teasers on this. She said something similar, but, but look at your tasks as a way of what, what gives you energy and what takes energy away. And if the majority of your day-to-day tasks are taking energy away from you, then that is not sustainable. If it's the fact that what your, you know, your day-to-day tasks should be would give you energy as an operations manager, and the ones that take energy away from you, the ones that can be carved out into another role, then that gives you insight in terms of the longevity of you in this role and how much you're going to enjoy it. Um, so I think it can feel labored, it can feel forced, but going through that quite practical step, approach from a, you know, transactional, what do I do in my day-to-day working life, to how do I feel about my day-to-day working life, that should be quite effective to help you make some, some potentially big decisions.

Al ElliottThank you, Leanne. Uh, some more great advice there. If you have a question for Leanne, then check out the show notes. You'll see the email, you can email it, it'll come through to me, and I will put that question to Leanne. Next time we have another Workplace Surgery, which will be next Tuesday, because this Thursday coming up, as I said, it's the interview with Peter Dorrington. Um, I think you're gonna really, really like this, even if you're not a nerd. It's just, it's, if you're interested in human behaviour, then it is, it is a really fascinating episode. Anything to add before we go, lovely Lee?

Leanne ElliottNo, I think so. Have we said the usual thing? Subscribe, click the button, really helps us out. It's the best way to support the show if you really enjoy the show. We really enjoy creating it for you. So long as that, that follow on Spotify, that subscribe on, on Apple, YouTube, it really does help us out. It's the best way to support the show. And so yeah, if you wouldn't mind, that would be amazing. But we will be back on Thursday with Peter, the data science genius. It's so interesting. And I think there's gonna be some really interesting ethical discussions around this as well. So do tune into that on Thursday.

Al ElliottBye.

Leanne ElliottAnd I'll see you tomorrow, Al.

Al ElliottYes, you will. I'll be, I'll be waiting at the gate for you. Like, I'll be, I'll be so excited to see you.

Leanne ElliottNo, you won't. I drove myself to the airport.

Al ElliottThat's true.

Leanne ElliottOh, the gate of the house.

Al ElliottI meant the gate of the house. Yes, not the gate of the airport.

Leanne ElliottOkay.

Al ElliottThat would be foolish for me to take a taxi to Split to meet you when, mind you, that would be a really lovely surprise, but I'm not going to do that. Anyway, so we'll see you. We'll see you, Leanne, tomorrow. And we will see everyone else on Thursday. Have a fantastic week in the meantime, and, uh, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to leave a review, we would absolutely love it. Speak to you soon.

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McKinsey's Copenhagen Clash, AI Hiring Drama & Motivating Stagnant Teams — This Week in Work (14th May 2024)

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