Episode 05 · 25 July 2022 · 39:25
How to Master Hybrid Work: A Leader's Guide
How to Master Hybrid Work: A Leader's Guide
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Why Remote Work Isn't What Most People Want
Hybrid vs. Remote: Definitions and History
The Stats: 99% Want Remote Sometimes
The Psychology Behind the Push for Flexibility
Why Leaders Are Still Clinging to the Office
Silo 1: Recruitment in a Hybrid World
Silo 2: Managing Performance When No One's Watching
The Steve Jobs/Pixar Story and the Loss of Informal Moments
Silo 3: Culture, Bad Managers, and the 3 R's
Show notes
How to Master Hybrid Work: A Leader's Guide
Episode 05 — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Business Psychologist and lead consultant at Oblong) get into the messy reality of hybrid work. Spoiler: it's not about everyone working from home forever. It's about flexibility, done properly.
After two and a half years of pandemic-era upheaval, most of us don't want to be fully remote — we want the option to be remote, sometimes. Leanne draws on nearly 15 years of experience (and a decade managing remote teams) to break down the why, when, and how of implementing a hybrid workplace that actually works. Expect science, stats, and a few hard truths about what hybrid working exposes in your management style.
Key Takeaways
Most people don't want to work remotely full-time. Buffer's research found 99% of respondents wanted to work remotely at least some of the time — but that's not the same as wanting to be remote forever. Flexibility is the prize, not location.
Hybrid working exposes weak management. If your managers relied on "bums on seats" to manage performance, hybrid will out them fast. The leaders who thrive are the ones who manage outcomes, not hours.
Informal moments need deliberate design. The water-cooler chat doesn't happen by accident in a hybrid world. Whether it's a "huddle" feature in your tech stack or a 25-minutes-on/5-minutes-off meeting structure, you have to build spontaneity in — or lose it entirely.
Reason, Resources, Recognition. Leanne's framework for what people actually need from their managers: a clear reason for their work, the resources to do it, and recognition when they do. Get those three right and location stops mattering.
🔗 Resources & Links
- Oblong HQ website — all about building a great workplace culture: oblonghq.com
- Want a chat with Leanne about building an amazing workplace culture? Email: podcast@oblonghq.com
- Got feedback, questions, or future guest suggestions? Email: podcast@oblonghq.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. What happens if the team want to work remotely, but the managers and leaders want everyone in the office? Hello and welcome to episode 5 of the Truths, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast. It's a podcast for business owners who want to build high-performing teams that genuinely care about the business you've built. Let's do some introductions if it's their first time listening. Over opposite me is Leanne Elliott. Hello, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottHello, Alastair.
Al ElliottThat's very formal, wasn't it? The reason why that sounds a bit funny is because Leanne's my wife. I'm Al Elliott. We're co-founders of Oblong, which is a consultancy which is dedicated to helping business owners build high-performing teams that genuinely care about the business that they have built. So a little bit of background on you, Leanne. Why, why am I, why am I asking you questions rather than you asking me questions?
Leanne ElliottWell, frankly, Al, I know what I'm talking about and you barely know what day it is.
Al ElliottFair point. Fair point.
Leanne ElliottSo that's not true. I'm a business psychologist. That's what I do. It's what I've done for almost 15 years. I have worked in business. I've consulted with businesses, um, all things people and culture. So I like to think I have an eye. I don't know all the answers, don't get me wrong. How can one person know all the answers?
Al ElliottThey can't.
Leanne ElliottThey can't. But I know some of the answers that might help.
Al ElliottMaybe Confucius and Gary Vee are the only 2 people in the world I think who know all the answers.
Leanne ElliottMaybe Barack Obama as well.
Al ElliottYeah, he seemed to, he seemed to know what he was talking about. However, in terms of remote work, which is our subject for today, he may not know much about it. Cool as he was, he may not know much about it, but the lady opposite me does. So the question we're asking today is, Is this remote work revolution actually a hoax? And we're going to find out a little bit more about that. So let's just start. Leah, can you give us a definition of remote work for anyone who's not quite sure?
Leanne ElliottOf course. I think, I think after the last 2 and a half years of bullshit, let's be frank, that we've had, people are fairly familiar with the concept of remote work. It's somebody who, who works for a business not on site or isn't part of a team where all that team collectively assembles every day at one specific location.
Al ElliottAnd so why is that? So, um, hybrid working is a slightly different term. So how does that differ?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so hybrid working is something that's really gained popularity as a term from the pandemic, or post-pandemic, kind of the early life post-pandemic, where organizations have found themselves with a workforce who have a preference to work sometime in the office and sometime remotely. That structure, that split of being on-site or remote is called hybrid working.
Al ElliottBrilliant. So, we were talking before we pressed record, you were explaining that remote working isn't actually a new thing, although it might be new to a lot of people. It's not a new thing. So, tell us, what's the history of remote working?
Leanne ElliottYes, I mean, remote working in some capacity has been around since the 1980s, but it really gained momentum during the noughties and tennies. Do we call it the tennies? It sounds weird though.
Al ElliottThe teens?
Leanne ElliottThe tweenies?
Al ElliottNo, that doesn't sound right.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, since 2000, since the millennium, purely because technology facilitates this much more easily than it ever has before. So yeah, remote work is not new. What's new is the scale on which people are now able or have worked remotely.
Al ElliottAnd so you're the lady who's got all the stats. Have you got any kind of statistics around this that demonstrate or back up what you just said? I do.
Leanne ElliottI mean, I have my own personal experience. I've a remote worker in some capacity since 2013. I've managed static on-site teams as a remote manager. And also as well, bear in mind, people who are in national management roles, they're not on-site with their team every day, even if their team are together. So it's really not a new concept for managers especially to not necessarily be on-site with their teams. Beyond that, I've also worked for fully remote companies. I've recruited teams that have spanned continents. And I continue to work with organisations who are either adjusting to remote work or hybrid structure.
Al ElliottI think what's interesting is some of the clients who you have worked with recently, there are people on the team who've never met each other, like the owner has never in person met any of these people.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Yeah, I'm currently doing some training and coaching with a member of staff that I've never met. He's based in Canada, and I probably never will meet him unless our paths cross somewhere in the world. One of my main clients in Australia who I've worked with since 2015, I met for the first time in 2019. So, it's really not an unusual thing, and particularly, I think, in the technology space or the services space where being on site isn't as critical to the function of job that you're doing, it's not uncommon. But you asked me for some statistics, so I went back to 2019.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThe last kind of major data points that we had pre-pandemic, and I found some interesting things. So there's a survey, um, by buffer.com that is a fully remote company. So we need to be— I always think whenever you look at statistics or, or any kind of claim, you really have to dig down into where that's come from and what might influence it. But let's just take it at face value for now. So buffer.com did a survey in 2019. They asked their participants, would you like to work remotely at least some of the time for the rest of your career? Do you gamble a guess at how, what percentage said yes?
Al ElliottI'm going to go with yes. Is it on the board?
Leanne ElliottYes is on the board. And for a bonus point, can you tell me what percentage of people said yes?
Al ElliottI'm going to guess it was around about 46.
Leanne ElliottHigher.
Al Elliott56.
Leanne ElliottHigher.
Al Elliott66.
Leanne ElliottHigher.
Al Elliott76?
Leanne Elliott99% of the respondents said they would like to work remotely at least Some of the time for the rest of their career. Some of the time. So, you're not even talking about fully remote work, you're talking about hybrid.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottInteresting. Now, I question that because Buffer is a fully remote company, therefore, might be a way they've asked the questions, how they've gathered their sample of people. Type of people who might be willing to respond to this type of survey might already be working remotely or have an invested interest in remote work. So, 99% might be a little bit inflated. However, I did some more. I did a little research, Al. So, what I found is some general stats. So, Global Workplace Analytics, they said in 2019 that remote work increased by 140% since 2005. Huge. So, already on that really strong growth trajectory. Gallup, who is a real thought leader in anything management, leadership, culture, state of organisations, they've been gathering data for 80 years now. They reported in 2019 that 43% of employees worked remotely at least some of the time.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottThat is in America. There was actually other research based in Switzerland that suggests that 70% of workers worked remotely at least one day a week. And 53% worked remotely at least half the week. I could go on, but the stats are somewhere between 50% and 80% of professionals worked remotely in some capacity in 2019.
Al ElliottSo tell me, why do you think, as a business psychologist, as a scientist, why do you think we were already headed that way towards a, at least a hybrid, if not a fully remote workplace?
Leanne ElliottThe reality is that working remotely, not having to be in a set place at a set time, brings a level of freedom that really appeals to us as just human beings. Having control is something that we're really into. Um, so having that, that ability to, to choose your working time, be flexible in that way, in terms of family commitments, in terms of where you live and the cost of that, in terms of wellness. Um, you know, there's a lot of research that shows work-life balance is easy to have if you have remote work in some There are downsides to that though, of course. Always 2 sides to the argument. But yeah, there are a lot of benefits to employees who see remote work as a way of better managing the balance between their working life and their home life.
Al ElliottSo, I think what's interesting is I'm fascinated by making money and not necessarily the actual act of making money, but why people want to make money. Back in my 20s, I was like, I want to be the youngest millionaire in the the UK, and they realized, well, I couldn't be youngest millionaire in Manchester. Then I realized I couldn't be youngest millionaire who made money from delivering beer, which is what my first business did, which was not a good idea, listener. Um, but what's interesting is that people seem to want money, and it's been— they don't— most people don't necessarily want the money. They want the money— they want the freedom that the money will give them. So what we're saying here is that this is not necessarily a threat to managers. This is an opportunity to give people what they want, which is total free— well, restrictive freedom to a certain extent, but they're giving you the freedom to live where they want, work when they want, without necessarily have to be a millionaire to do it. So, so tell me, I want to ask you about recruitment, the impact on recruitment, the impact on engagement, how managers deal with it. Before we move into that, is there anything else that you think is important for a listener to know about the whole work transition, the remote work? revolution?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think what, what we have experienced, and I think perhaps business owners or leaders are in, in still somewhat in a state of shock from the significant shift in our working patterns that's happened over the last 2 years. And then the fact it was, it was during a pandemic. And I think there is a— there was— I can't remember who it was, but it was somebody that I— a psychologist I follow who said something like, to organizations struggling with remote work, or employees struggling from remote work, remember that you are not working remotely. You are working remotely during a global pandemic. We've worked remotely for, what, 7 years before the pandemic hit, and it was a massive adjustment and shift for us. And, and it, it was a trauma. It was something we've gone through that caused a lot of anxiety, a lot of disruption, a lot of change, and that is difficult. That said, we also showed in the pandemic how amazingly resilient and adaptable we are as humans. We transitioned to a state of work, an accelerated shift in work, an unprecedented shift in work probably since the Second World War. Yet we did it in a way where the majority of organizations did it effectively. The majority of employees were as productive, performed as well. We've proven that we can do it. Therefore, trying to wind that clock back when employees have had a taste of this freedom, a taste of this different way of working, is very difficult.
Al ElliottJust listening to what you said there, it does sound like, I mean, in most people's careers, which usually span 40 to 50 years, in most people's careers, there's been, over the last 50 years, there's been nothing like the pandemic that has given us such a shift. Any kind of shift or trend has happened slowly over time, whereas this was just like almost like 90% of the workforce or 80%. I don't know the stats, I'm sure you do. We're suddenly going, right, life isn't the same. And as in next week you're not allowed to leave your house. I mean, that's— it's trauma to start off with, but also it's something which managers and leaders have never had to deal with in their career so far.
Leanne ElliottI think you're right, and I think it's that it's the speed at which leaders, managers, businesses had to adjust. And I think it's also the blanket impact it had. It's not so much that there hasn't been disruption or challenges over the past 50 years. There have been, you know, we've got the crash in the '80s, you've got the global financial crisis that hit in 2008. Lots of businesses and industries suffered and had to pivot. I myself was in HR consultancy when the pandemic hit and then pivoted into welfare to work simply because the employment— unemployment rates were going through the roof. So many people had to pivot to, to various economic challenges that have happened. But what was unique about the pandemic is the speed at which it happened and the scale at which it happened.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo every single one of us on this planet were impacted by the pandemic, whether that be in terms of our freedoms and what we could do, and for the The majority of us, how and why we work.
Al ElliottSo, I want to break down the remainder of this episode into 3 sort of silos. So, we want to talk about what impact does remote work have on recruiting? What impact does remote work have on ensuring that your employees are engaged? And then, and then what, what impact does it have for leaders and management in terms of sort of a slightly higher level, a more strategic level? So, where do you want to start?
Leanne ElliottShould we start with recruitment?
Al ElliottYeah, why not?
Leanne ElliottSo, I think recruitment is fairly, probably had the fewest changes in terms of how people recruit. People have been doing it online for a long time. They're used to advertising roles online. They're used to screening resumes remotely. They might even be used to doing telephone interviews as a first point of screening or You know, video interviews are more popular now. So, in terms of the process itself, it shifted the medium, but not necessarily the method. So, rather than bringing people into your organisation for an assessment centre, for example, where you give them lots of different activities, you do them maybe staggered and on a remote basis. So, the process didn't change so much, just the medium in which it was delivered does. In terms of recruitment as well, if you are a fully remote organization or an organization that will support fully remote workers, you've just massively increased your talent pool. You're no longer just looking at people who can travel into central Manchester or get to London. You're now talking about people who— it's not only even UK-wide, but globally. You can now dip into the talent pools of people in North America, in Asia, in Africa, across Europe. Your talent pool has just significantly increased.
Al ElliottI think that's, that's such a good point, which I hadn't really considered. Um, I think I mentioned on my previous podcast that I haven't really had a job since about 1999. Um, and that was the time when, if, when I went for my job, I was for a pub manager, and I was like, okay, so I go and meet one person, then I go for an assessment center like you said, and then I go and meet the pub manager and see if we, see if I like them to work with them. And it was all very face-to- face. And that just seems so archaic. Even before the pandemic, it seems so archaic to do it that way. So are there any downsides to this way of recruiting now?
Leanne ElliottI think the obvious downside is that now, because so many organisations have some kind of remote working policy or hybrid structure, is that all of your competitors too have access to this broader talent pool. So it's not a case of— and I've worked for organisations that were fully remote pre-pandemic, And we've seen the, you know, the, the level of talent we're able to engage reduce, the volume significantly reduce, because now there are so many more roles out there that offer this way of working. So, you are, you know, as before, competing directly with other organizations. I think the upside though is, is it's— there are so many organizations that are still trying to figure out where they stand on remote work, where they stand on hybrid working. If you have a really clear idea of what your commitment is, what your promises are, what your structure is, how people are supported, you're gonna have an advantage over— because so many people haven't figured it out yet. Figure it out and you're already going to be a step ahead of your competitors. The only other difficulty with recruitment in, in a remote setting is the onboarding process. That can be more difficult. How do you onboard somebody when you're, you know, that they might not meet their team, or, or how do you show them through processes and doing things virtually? It's more challenging, but again, many organizations onboarded staff during the pandemic. We've shown it can work. Remote organizations have been onboarding people virtually for years. There are ways of doing it. It just probably needs a bit more organization, a bit more structure, and a sprinkle of innovation.
Al ElliottI love that. The apps that have really grown from this— Zoom has got some amazing new features on it. Um, Google Meet, I think if I'm right in thinking, they're rolling out something which they can test the emotion of the person on the other end of the, of the, on the end of the call. So you can see if they're engaged or not, etc., etc. And so, I mean, the tech is just playing a bigger, bigger part.
Leanne ElliottIt's amazing. I was, I was doing some work with a client who's worked, I don't think I'm allowed to say, but a very large social media organisation. And they really quickly rolled out virtual reality and a virtual reality app for collaboration huddles. And it's just cool the things that have accelerated. And that is now being sold to many other app developers, which is brilliant. I think the reality is, yes, the technology is there, it is evolving, it is maturing. And bear in mind as well, the majority of You know, the vast proportion of people you are recruiting into your business, like you say, you know, average working ages, etc., etc., you're probably looking at people who are under 50 as the majority of people you recruit into your business. Well, a large proportion of them are digital natives, or like us, in their shoulder generations, where, you know, these technologies have been around since we were in our early 20s. So people are much more adept and have more skills in terms of Using communication and also communicating virtually.
Al ElliottI love it. Right. So we've gone through the recruitment. By the way, if you want some context on this, if you go to oblonghq.com/roadmap, you're going to see our culture roadmap, which essentially breaks this down into 3 strands. It starts off with it, with recruitment, then goes to engagement, and then goes to management. And so we've just covered off essentially the step 1 of that. There's much more stuff to it though. Go to oblonghq.com/roadmap. Totally free, not even asking for your email. So let's go on to the next stage.
Leanne ElliottWe're not?
Al ElliottWe're not. Nope, it's totally free. Anyone can, anyone can look at it, no opt-in required. So let's go back into the second stage, which was engagement. So you've recruited someone. Well, actually, let's not, let's not take that same person because as you said, there's an onboarding process. So you have existing employees, they're working remotely or hybrid in some way. Things must be different from, from the water cooler moment. I hate that phrase, but the water cooler moments, the making cups of tea, the, you know, the, the going to the pub after the office, after, after office hours. What, what's changed there? And how can we, as leaders and managers, how can we mitigate against those kind of problems?
Leanne ElliottI think you're right. And I think this is the, probably one of the key challenges that managers and leaders feel, you know, when they don't have those accidental or impromptu moments where they can speak to their staff, engage them, maybe see the person who walks in that's a bit more slumped over or doesn't look as well presented as they were a few days ago. You know, those signs of somebody struggling. Yeah, that, that is difficult. But I think that's the thing. These are non-intentional, non-planned interactions that leaders and managers use to make— have conversations or make judgments about how their team are feeling. The emphasis being on unplanned, unintentional.
Al ElliottCan you give an example?
Leanne ElliottSo, like you said, a water cooler moment, making a cup of tea, having a chat about how was your weekend? Oh God, this happened, or my dog died and I'm feeling really shit. Just these conversations that are going to give you glimpses into how somebody is doing, whether it be work-specific or life-specific. They're these accidental, unplanned encounters. But the reality is you can still have those encounters. They just need to be planned and they need to be mindful and need to be thought about. Remote working has no room for a lazy manager. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. We're going to go into managers in a second. But I have a couple of questions for you. What happens if the team want to work remotely, But the managers and leaders want everyone in the office.
Leanne ElliottWell, I'd like to have a water slide out of my bedroom window, but it's just not practical, is it? The reality is, if all— if your team wants to work remotely and you're the only person left trying to drag people into the office— hello, civil service— then it's not going to go down well, and you're probably going to attract some negative attention and negative feedback. But likewise, if you're a leader that is embracing remote work and you don't want hybrid, you see the benefits, cost alone in terms of not having a fixed office space, yet you have members of your team that do want to come into the office. You have to be mindful of that, and you may end up, whatever path you choose, potentially disengaging some employees who want a different way of working. But we're in the midst of this, the very early stages of this disruption. People will find their path. They'll find what works best for them. Businesses will do the same. I think it's, it's having the clarity as a business owner. What do you want? Why is that important? How does that structure facilitate your culture, your performance, your customers, everything that you do as a business? This isn't a unique problem. Business leaders make decisions like this every day, whether it be about launching a new service or pivoting into a new sector to find customers. Change is risk. And it needs to be done with intent. And it needs to be done mindful of what these risks and opportunities are. It's no different to any other decision that businesses make on a daily basis.
Al ElliottSo let me ask you then, there's a story I read about when Steve Jobs took over Pixar, or didn't— I don't think he took over it. Did he buy into it? I can't remember. Anyway, he took a management role in it, a significant stake in it. One of the first things he did was move all of the— I mean, we Brits call it pigeonholes, but you know, like the little letterboxes for each member of staff where they have a little letterbox. And they moved— he moved all of those into a big atrium because his thought, his thinking was that then people from different departments are going to run into each other whilst they're getting letters, and it's going to help to promote engagement, it's going to help to promote cross-pollination of ideas, etc., etc. If we can't do that anymore, even on a smaller scale like the kettle, particularly for us Northerners, Maybe the kettle is the sort of like the, the place where everyone congregates to make a cup of tea. You mentioned before that we can do that, we can— you didn't use the word force, you used the word deliberate, didn't you? How do you do that online deliberately?
Leanne ElliottIt is a good question. And I think there is an element of the kind of the informality of it can be lost if it isn't planned. You're asking somebody to join a video call. But I think it's looking— probably the first step I would suggest if you are shifting to remote full-time or permanently long-term or hybrid is looking back at the things that have worked well for you both pre-pandemic and during pandemic. What were employees engaging in? Was it team meetings? Was it that you used to have big chats around the kettle? Was it that you had drinks on a Friday after work? what was it about that interaction that either facilitated relationships or facilitated some kind of collaboration that was beneficial for the business? Those types of activities can still be done virtually. I mean, how many people attended a pub quiz during the pandemic? Hands up. Yeah, everyone.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd, you know, things like that, it's— you can still have these, these more informal conversations, um, and interactions with people. Or, you know, you look at If you say you think you look back and you go, do you know what, we had so many good ideas over a brew, then introduce like Brew Tuesdays, 9 till 10:30. We come with no agenda, nothing about work, we're just having a chat. Or you split people off into huddles and do the same thing. There's so many different ways to do it, but I think again it's understanding the intent behind that, that communication. Is it to foster relationships? Is it to just find out about how your staff are doing? Is it to try and collaborate or innovate? Is it to try and solve very specific problem. Other thing that I've done in remote teams as well is actually have like coworking, virtual coworking. So you'll all have like the Zoom chat on or Slack or whatever it is. And you'll have— you'll do the Pomodoro method. Is that the right word?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWhere you have kind of 25 minutes on, 5 minutes off, but you all do that together. So you have 25 minutes, blah, blah, blah. People might want to have a little chat about, have a question. You come back after 5 minutes, just as if you've made a cup of tea. It can feel a bit more contrived at first, but the reality is, as I said before, and we've proven it through the pandemic, is we are hugely adaptable. We underestimate our abilities as humans so much in terms of how we communicate and how we build relationships. We can do this. And the reality as well is, if you've got an organisation of people, a majority of people who want to work remotely or in hybrid, They're motivated to make this work.
Al ElliottI think it's interesting that 37signals, the people who created Basecamp, yeah, and so they've been big fans of what they called asynchronous communication, in that you weren't— if you had your headphones on, you weren't— no one was allowed to come anywhere near you. They didn't have meetings. They have stand-up meetings at best, but most of them were just using Slack or their own proprietary software. Um, so do you think that, that the asynchronous idea gives— I mean, that's obviously good for introverts who want to think about it. What about extroverts like me who have an idea and I look up at you over the other side of that desk and I go, I want to talk to you about this thing right now, Leanne? How do they cope?
Leanne ElliottAgain, technology is, is evolving to enable these impromptu conversations to happen. There's a new function now on Slack called Huddles. I'm not sure if you've come across it.
Al ElliottNo, no.
Leanne ElliottAnd we basically want to, to pick the people you want to have a Huddle with. It's voice only, it's no video, and it's intended for these kind of shorter questions or, or conversations or idea sharing, knowledge sharing, um, that is a bit more impromptu. And then, you know, the reality is, like you say, you have, you have status markers on these things as well, whether you're busy, you don't want to be interrupted, whether you, you know, whether you're available. Um, I think it's the same. It's the same thing. Like you say, if you've got your, your, your kind of your Z's on in Slack, that's the same as you having your headphones in. If your green little bubble was showing, and then that's you kind of walking into the coffee room and going, hi everyone, how was your day? It's the context. And that is a shift when we've, you know, our entire lives up until 2020 were very much based around face-to-face physical interactions. It's a shift, but it's one that we've already proved that we can do. We just need to practice it a bit more.
Al ElliottOkay, so back in the '80s and '90s, the Tom Peters of the world were talking about this open-door management technique where anyone can walk in, etc., etc. There have been lots of different management fads since then. However, how, how do managers and leaders deal with this problem of not being able to see people, not being able to just look over and see if they're happy, see if they're engaged, see if, you know, that kind of thing. How do they cope with that?
Leanne ElliottInsights. And I think it's what you were talking about there is gaining physical insights. But even then, people aren't necessarily going to tell you everything that's on their mind. You might not be able to tell by looking at somebody that they're having a bad day or that they're stressed. It's all about insights. And this is where employee engagement and employee engagement surveys in particular are so important, even more so in organizations that work remotely or Or in a hybrid structure, but getting those honest feedback, providing a safe environment, anonymous, anonymous feedback. And a good engagement survey will ask about these things. It will ask about relationships between staff. It will ask about relationships between staff and their managers. It will ask questions about if there's any toxicity or any challenges or, you know, mismatched expectations. It's going to give you those insights. And the great thing about engagement is that unless there's a significant change in your business, it's a fairly stable phenomenon. So, doing an annual survey and a 6-month pulse check is enough, provided there isn't any significant change, for you to get a general gauge of how relationships are within the business. Beyond that, it comes back down to just being a good manager and having genuine empathy and interest in the people that you are responsible for. There used to be a big shift of, oh, we have monthly one-to-ones and huddles on a Monday, etc., etc. And there seems to be a bit of a shift in the literature, but certainly in terms of practice as well during the pandemic and as we're coming out of it, to more frequent informal catch-ups. So say, for example, you're working with— you have a member of staff and they're in a new role within the business and they have some areas for development. You've given them a project that's really going to stretch them and really push them to use all their skills. skills and develop their skills and, you know, really dig into their strengths. Saying to that person, right, we talked about the project, you know what you're doing, cool, great, yet see you in 4 weeks. Fuck. I feel panicked for them. Whereas if you say to that member of staff, look, right, why don't we just put in a meeting every week, half an hour on a Wednesday afternoon? If we need it, we'll use it. If we don't and you're fine, that's great. That's just— we have something in the diary. But of course, you need anything, you give me a call, you give me a Zoom chat, whatever else. I'm here to support you. And then balance that as well with an impromptu call to a member of— a member of staff on a Monday morning. How you doing? How's your weekend? How you getting on that project? Any worries? Anything I can help you with? How you feeling about it? It's just opening up these communication channels. It's making sure you're approachable, you're being authentic in your interest and your support of that member of staff, it builds trust. So that means that if that member of staff starts to experience some difficulty, but you're not in the office to see them kind of pulling their hair out, then you've already got these kind of checkpoints in place where you should be able to gauge if something is going off.
Al ElliottSo it sounds like it's going to shake out a lot of the people who aren't good managers who've just been promoted because There's nowhere else for them to go.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. I think that's the thing, isn't it, that traditionally people have been promoted into management roles because they're good at their job. Therefore, they're promoted to manage other people that do the job that they're good at. And the reality is great management takes a completely different skill set. It's not a technical role in terms of necessarily having a, you know, a very specific profession and you're technically capable at that. Some of the best people leaders I've worked with have have managed very technical teams, whether it be in finance or technology, and don't have a finance or technology background because they don't need that. Their job is not to have the expertise. The expertise is in their team. Their job is to coordinate, to make sure people have got the right resources, the right support, they've got clear objectives, clear goals, and giving people the recognition that's going to make them feel motivated and engaged. leadership is a fundamental skill in itself. It doesn't rely necessarily on a technical capability within a profession.
Al ElliottI love that. I love that. So, are there any kind of closing thoughts on this? I know you've been doing, developing some content with an insurance company around this, um, with remote work. Um, any other thoughts? Anything that people can sort of like hang their, hang these ideas on?
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think when you, you know, if you, if you try and Google what it takes to be a good manager, then good luck trying to find some kind of consensus on that, um, because there's different, different schools of thought, there's different types of management, different types of leaders. But when you kind of boil it all down to just what the main fundamental points of great management are, there's 3. One, give your people the reason. Does everyone know exactly why they're doing their job, how their job is in line with the broader goals and objectives of the organisation? Do they feel a value in what they do in contributing to something bigger? And that can be the smallest or the most mundane of tasks. We've talked again and again about the janitor in NASA. Same thing. Give your people a reason. Secondly, give them the resources, and not just the, you know, the workplace materials that they need, although that is a really important consideration with remote teams. You know, it's important to consider what the work environment for that member of staff that's working remotely looks like. Do they have space within their home to have this set up? Do they have the right technology available to them? It's almost like taking it back to, you know, used to like the health and safety risk assessments type things where people are returning to work or reasonable adjustments. It's a similar concept. It's making sure people have got the right environment. So, that is important. But in terms of resources as well, it's the role clarity. Do people know what's expected of them? Do they know what they have to do in a day and what their role is? And also, utilisation. Are employees given the opportunity to use their strengths and abilities? And that could even be in terms of their day job, in terms of stretch projects that's helping with their development, or just making sure that you understand as a manager, as a leader, The other strengths and skills that your people have. For example, you might have Johnny who has a podcast on the weekends, who actually knows quite a lot about mic equipment should you have a media project to do. People have all sorts of skills that can be used and utilized, so it's understanding your staff. And third, recognition. And it's not about what a great day, what a good job, well done. The problem with empty recognition is that you're just thanking somebody for doing their job, so it doesn't really mean a lot. It's like, well, yeah, I did my job, thanks, cheers. Recognition is more about kind of saying, John, what you did with that— I saw that email you sent to that client, you copied me into it, thanks for that. That phrase that you used in the end, that closing, that call to action was shit hot. That was incredible. I love that. Where did you get that idea from? Engage in the feedback, in the recognition. And similarly, even if the work isn't quite as expected, recognise the effort that was put into that. Few people go into work every day with the intention of doing a bad job. They might be disengaged and they might have kind of lost the, the kind of the passion that they once had, perhaps, but people don't typically go into work to do a bad day's work. So, recognise the effort, try and understand why that effort didn't land Because that's as frustrating for the person as it is for you as a leader. And then help steer your employee back on course. And again, this is where those more regular catch-ups can be a really valuable way to do this.
Al ElliottThis is brilliant. So, reason, resources, and recognition. I think that's a, that's a really good framework for any manager. So, where can people go to learn a little bit more about this?
Leanne ElliottYeah, there are a few resources I can recommend. One, by us, the Oblong HQ website. If you head over to our blog, you'll find a number of articles on management, remote work, leadership. There's a couple in particular that are relevant, so we'll link those in the show notes. For people who are HR practitioners, people and culture practitioners, or business leaders who just really want to get more into kind of the science and data behind management, there is a book called It's the Manager by Jim Clifton and Jim Harter from Gallup, which I recommend hugely. It's based on 80 years of data gathering from Gallup. It is the bible of everything management, and it's not a dry, heavy chapter-by-chapter book. It's split into really short, like 500-word chapters, with just some really key theory points and practical points as well in terms of being a great manager. Then finally, we run workshops for people who are adjusting to remote work or managing remote teams, people who are new to management roles. And so if you want to jump onto one of those, just get in touch, podcast@oblonghq.com.
Al ElliottPerfect. Right, we'll leave it there then. So let's see you next time where we've got a potential secret guest, which if we can get them organised for next time, then we'll get them on. Otherwise, we will be talking about the number one reason why your business isn't scaling. And by the way, it isn't clients or cash. So let's Look forward to that one.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye.