Episode 09 · 30 August 2022 · 24:14
What is Quiet Quitting? (And How Leaders Can Respond?)
What is Quiet Quitting? (And How Leaders Can Respond?)
0:000:00
Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.
Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free
Chapters & timestamps
Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.
What quiet quitting actually is (and isn't)
other#quiet quitting#employee disengagement#workplace trends
Where the term came from and why it's gone viral
Why quiet quitting isn't brand new
other#quiet quitting history#generational differences#workplace behavior
Why people choose to quiet quit
Henry Ford and the history of doing the bare minimum
The role of validation and recognition at work
How to know if it's happening in your organisation
other#identifying quiet quitting#organizational signs#employee behavior
The leader's role in employee engagement
other#leadership role#employee engagement#manager responsibility
Why one-off engagement surveys aren't enough
Final takeaways
other#quiet quitting takeaways#workplace insights#employee retention
Show notes
What Is Quiet Quitting? (And How Leaders Can Respond?)
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Business Psychologist) unpack the viral phenomenon of "quiet quitting" — what it actually is, why it's not the new, Gen-Z-driven crisis the headlines suggest, and what leaders can do about it.
Quiet quitting is everywhere right now — on LinkedIn, in the news, and in watercooler conversations. But what does it actually mean? Is it a new phenomenon? And more importantly, what should leaders do when they spot it in their own teams?
Leanne dives into the psychology behind quiet quitting, separating the hype from the reality. They explore why employees disengage, the warning signs leaders should look out for, and practical steps to prevent it from taking hold — starting with a hard look at the role leaders play in their employees' working lives.
What Is Quiet Quitting, Really?
Despite the buzz, quiet quitting isn't a new phenomenon. It's not about employees literally leaving their jobs — it's about people limiting their efforts to what they're contracted to do, rather than going above and beyond.
Leanne and Al explore why the term has captured so much attention, and why the backlash from some quarters might say more about outdated expectations than it does about employee motivation.
Why Do People Quiet Quit?
The reasons run deeper than "laziness" or "entitlement." Leanne breaks down the psychology:
- Meaning: People need a real reason to get out of bed and go to work beyond a paycheck.
- Fairness: When effort isn't recognised or rewarded, motivation drops.
- Validation: Many employees — particularly those who entered the workforce in earlier eras — were conditioned to seek external validation for their effort. When that validation disappears, so does the discretionary effort.
How Leaders Can Respond
If you suspect quiet quitting is happening in your organisation, Leanne's advice starts with a mirror:
- Look at your own role first. Leaders play a significant part in whether employees feel motivated to go above and beyond.
- Check your commercial outcomes. Lower productivity and higher cost per output are clear warning signs.
- Don't rely on one-off engagement surveys. They're a starting point, not a solution. Track engagement scores against commercial performance over time.
The Bottom Line
Quiet quitting isn't new — we just have a new term for it. The question isn't "how do we stop employees from quiet quitting?" It's "what kind of environment are we creating that makes them want to?"
Connect With Us
Want a chat with Leanne about how you can use psychometrics to run successful recruitment or development programmes? Email us: podcast@oblonghq.com.
Got feedback, questions or future guest suggestions? Email us: podcast@oblonghq.com.
Want to check us out? Head on over to our website that talks all about building a great workplace culture.
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottSo not, not calling it in necessarily, just a case of just limiting your efforts to what you're contracted to do. Hello and Welcome to episode 9 of the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast. We're here to help you as business leaders build teams that care as much about your business as you do. My name is Leanne.
Al ElliottOh, I'm sorry, mouthful of water there. My name's Al.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back.
Al ElliottSo what do we— how does— what's the format of the podcast, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYou tell me, Al.
Al ElliottSo basically, Leanne's a business psychologist, has got loads of letters after her name. She spent 15, 20 years in research and also working in industry. I am not a business psychologist. I'm not an expert, but I'm here to ask the questions that you as a business leader, as an owner, as a manager might have to ensure that we give you the best information from the, one of the best people to talk about it, which is my colleague here, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottHello.
Al ElliottSo what are we talking about today, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottWell, today, I don't know about you, but everywhere I seem to look at the moment, whether it be on my LinkedIn or my newsfeed, quiet quitting seems to be the people and culture phrase of the moment.
Al ElliottYeah, I've seen it a lot as well. I don't know whether it's because, because I've opened one article, then Google shows me more in my feed. I don't know. But yeah, I've just noticed it seems to be something that just over the last month, just suddenly, boom, everyone was talking about remote work before, and now they're talking about quiet quitting. So what is quiet quitting?
Leanne ElliottSo quiet quitting is a term I've not come across before until I'd heard it. It's, it's something that, from what I understand, has been coined by, by employees who are expressing how they feel about their work on social media. And when I started reading about quiet quitting and what it is, my understanding is it's a conscious decision to invest less energy in work. So, not calling it in necessarily, just a case of limiting your efforts to what you're contracted to do. So, yeah, just doing nothing more, nothing less what they are employed to do. This might sound familiar to you. It certainly did to me. is basically being described there is disengagement, or the concept of employee engagement. When employees are disengaged, that is what happens. They're not going the extra mile, they're not going above and beyond, they're just doing what it is they're paid to do, and then they're going home. I think a couple of things struck me about this, the rise in the term and how much media attention it's getting. On one hand, I guess I'm cool with it because it's like, well, at least now we've got a vocabulary that people are using for employee engagement. If that increases understanding, then fantastic. But let's not pretend that this is new, okay? This has been around for decades. I mean, as a term, employee engagement, quiet quitting, it's the same thing. It was founded in the 1990s, but we can go back further than that in terms of actually understanding how behaviour and efficiency at work works. We can go right back to the 1920s. The early 1900s. We can even then go to the 1920s Hawthorne studies, which you might have heard of, which was kind of the first battery of research papers that really found that if you pay attention to workers, if you listen to their needs, and if you help them to be happy with their work and their employer, then they're going to be more productive and contented. This was the 1920s. We're 100 years on, and we're still talking about the same thing. So, with that, can we please not start Kind of this whole scapegoating of it's the millennials, it's the Gen Zs, it's these are the people that are, you know, a kind of changing work in, in a way that isn't sustainable. It's like, well, actually, they're changing work in a way that is sustainable. Because finally, there is either this quiet protest of quiet quitting, which is now being vocalized. It's happened for years, but it's now being vocalized. And it is a problem. I mean, we know already 3 out of 5 people are disengaged. So, 3 out of 5 people have been quietly quitting for years, and that costs us about £340 billion every year, which is why the government invested a huge amount of money in the MacLeod Report in 2008, which we've already talked about on employee engagement episodes. So, let's not pretend this is new, but let's rejoice that we have a new word for it that seems to be a friendly vocabulary that people want to, want to use to talk about employee engagement.
Al ElliottAnd it's alliterative, which tickles my marketing pickle. Quiet quitting. So, I mean, the boomers— and that's not labeled too much, but I'm tongue-in-cheek when I say the boomers are saying that Gen Zs are quiet quitting. But actually, I know plenty of people who would be classed as boomers who spent the last 5 to 8 years of their job just phoning it in, just coasting through because they were on the way to retirement. And so, I mean, it's not something that's— and I'm sure we've all had jobs where we just do the bare minimum and go, oh God, I'm not looking forward to it. Oh well, it'll soon be over, etc., etc. So Like you say, it's nothing brand new, is it?
Leanne ElliottIt's really not brand new. And I think the thing as well is that, you know, we, we look at kind of— I think what's interesting is the arguments that are coming up in, in the media. And I'd be interested to know your thoughts, Al, but I read a lot of the backlash kind of being about people kind of like, oh, this, the hustle culture is being lost and it's gonna be bad for their careers. And, you know, unless you work to the point of burnout, why even bother? And it's like, Really?
Al ElliottWell, I was reading something about how, um, millennials— well, not necessarily millennials, but Gen Z are now, um, they are rebelling against the stuff their parents did. Um, so for example, drinking is way down, like Gen Z drinking levels minuscule, but, but smoking, smoking weed is way up. Whereas their parents, which I suppose would be yours and my generation, we spent the '90s drinking But we never— but not many of us smoked. It wasn't really that kind of thing.
Leanne ElliottBecause that's more kind of the hippie era kind of—
Al ElliottExactly. So it's more— so is it not just that we are always rebelling against our parents and doing the opposite of them? And our parents come from the hustle generation, the Gary Vees of the world, who 30 years ago, 25 years ago, were saying you have to work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to achieve your dreams. Otherwise you've wasted your life. Which of course is an extreme way in one way, which I think is a good way. I started to, to, um, to subscribe to and then burnt out very early on. And, and now I'm kind of anti-hustle. I don't really like that. But I, I suppose that the, the Gen Zs are now rebelling against the millennials and the people like me, Gen— Gen X. Am I Gen X?
Leanne ElliottUh, Gen X is millennial. You're Gen Y.
Al ElliottI'm Gen Y, who did subscribe to that.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's kind of, you know, why are people choosing to Quiet quit. And I think it's always been around. This is, this is disengagement. It's always been around. But in terms of why there might be a bit of a wave at the moment, or perhaps it's, it's more notable in, in the current generations, the Gen X and Z generations, I think, I think there's a few reasons. I wonder whether it's actually just more publicized, like rather than kind of we used to have in our early careers where we used to have conversations down the pub with our friends moaning about our, our bosses and how we're just gonna, you know, Do what we need to do until we get another job. Whereas now, you know, we'd express those thoughts and emotions in the pub. Whereas now social media is where you express those thoughts and emotions. So this is what's going around TikTok. Then yeah, it is going to get picked up by the media and it is going to be sensationalized. But I think you raised a really good point there as well that you know the hustle generation. If we look at our parents, you know what what was our experiences as Gen Y, Gen Gen Z kids? You know yes, we saw our parents working hard. We had incredible. Role models in terms of a good work ethic, but we also had absent parents, and we also had, you know, parents burning out and experiencing mental health troubles, um, you know, physical health difficulties, you know. And I think there's just a shift of having seen— and we know as well statistically, you know, the physiological impacts of a high-stress life: increased heart disease, cancer rates. There's so many different, different things that It's not too surprising that, that the generations that have observed this as children are now starting to prioritize work-life, work-life balance. And I think once you then lay over the pandemic on top of that, in terms of this kind of COP and COP-AD attitude and completely reimagining what work is and how it fits in with our lives, I don't think it's any real surprise that this is now coming to the forefront of something that's really, really important. And we have to We have to manage. We actually finally have to address it and manage it.
Al ElliottI think it's interesting. I was reading about, about Henry Ford, the, you know, the guy who started Ford Motor Company and how he supposedly invented the 8-hour working day. Before that, it was usually a lot longer. And his thinking behind it wasn't, oh, we'll let people be more, be happier. It was more like, we want them to have 8 hours sleep, 8 hours work, and then 8 hours to go off and enjoy their life so that they can buy a motor car and make the company even more money. But we kind of feel like, I feel like we're in that sort of era where we are redefining our workday. And if you can do the same job and do it in 4 hours in the day, why wouldn't you?
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. And I think that's what, what kind of makes me smile about some of the backlash that's coming from either business leaders or career coaches or other professionals in, in people and culture that are kind of really, you know, getting quite angry and heated about it.
Al ElliottAnd jealous, perhaps.
Leanne ElliottMaybe about, you know, this whole Phenomenon of quiet— phenomenon of quiet quitting. And I think it's exactly that, that it's— you're assuming, one, that— because one of the main arguments is that quiet quitting isn't great in the long run because it's not gonna be good for your career, and it's not going to give you— not having any meaning in your work means that you're going to find it even less fulfilling, and your, you know, your well-being will continue to deteriorate. That's absolutely true. But there's some sweeping generalizations there in terms of what people actually want from work. One, that they don't derive meaning from many other aspects of their life, and they look to work as the only source of meaning. The reality is work might be just a transaction that someone has to do to get the money they need to live the lifestyle they want, but they're deriving their meaning from sources outside of work, whether that be volunteering, whether that be within their community, whether it be with their family. You're making a massive assumption that people are deriving their meaning from their work. They might not be. I think, secondly, is that, you know, it's going to be worse for your career. Well, 2 things to that. Are we saying that it's impossible to have a successful career unless you work to the point of burnout? Or are we saying that quiet quitting is gonna be something that will, will continue, an individual continue to do indefinitely? Let's not kid ourselves. Quiet quitting is just a hop, skip, and a jump from actually resigning, right?
Al ElliottHmm. Yeah, definitely. And I think the, what, what's funny is that people of my age, when we first entered the workforce, um, then really, so this, I'm, well, I'm 45, so I had my first job at sort of 19, 20, so 25 years ago, then work kind of was the main thing in your life because you had your friends and your socializing and you had your hobbies and, and other bits and pieces. But work was where you got external, um, what's the word, recognition.
Leanne ElliottValidation.
Al ElliottValidation. External recognition and validation for effort. Whereas now there are so many people who are streaming, who are gamers and stream it, um, who have little mini publishing empires at 19 years old because they've got podcasts, they've got YouTube channels, they're getting external validation from other means. And so, so no longer does work provide the only external validation that they might need.
Leanne ElliottCompletely. And I think as well, that's the thing, isn't it? If you're in a, in a work environment that isn't giving you that validation, it isn't giving that to you, it's not incentivizing you, it's not recognizing your efforts, it's not nurturing your abilities, then it's not worth the hustle. It's not validating. I'm looking for it to be validating and it's not. So therefore, why, why put in more effort when I'm not getting recognized anyway? And I think the real kind of, kind of, I think, what's that word? Hypocrisy. Thank you. About it all is that if you are a business owner, I guarantee, I guarantee that 99% of you started your business because you were disengaged in your current work. Because you wanted to have more control. You wanted to have— be able to be more creative, do work with more meaning, with more purpose. You wanted to be recognised for, for, you know, for having this business. You were disengaged at some point. You quiet quit and started a business. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a podcast network. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Yep, definitely, definitely. So let me ask you then, so before I ask you how we know it's happening, then have we covered off all the reasons why an employee might choose to quiet quit?
Leanne ElliottI think so, yeah. I think it is one, assuming that, that work holds more meaning, and 2, assuming that, that businesses are providing that meaning. You know, if somebody isn't connected to the, the mission, the values, they're not inspired by their leaders, Then they are going to disconnect from the organisation.
Al ElliottDefinitely. So, we're going to ask you, how do I know it's happening? How do I stop it from happening? And how to prevent it from happening in the future? So, let's start with, how do I know it's happening as a business leader or manager?
Leanne ElliottI think it's going to be really clear just within your— how your business is currently performing. I mean, there's some really telltale signs. If you have a high turnover rate, you know, before people left, they'd probably gone through a good few months Quiet quitting or being disengaged, people being off sick, burnout, presenteeism even. So that's where people actually come into work when they're sick or when they're ill because they, you know, they don't feel they have an option not to. A lack of energy in work, so people not engaging in meetings or having their cameras switched off on Zoom. If high— if your workloads have been high for A long while, more than 6 months, then chances are you've got some people in there that are quiet quitting. And I think as well, if you're looking at your teams and you're missing that, the ideas bouncing around you used to have, the knowledge sharing, the innovation, that's probably a sign of it as well. Any kind of friction between team members, whether it be peers or with managers and their reports.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd yeah, you're seeing in terms of your commercial outcomes, lower productivity, so a higher A higher cost per head than what you're used to in terms of revenue generation, and lower levels of profitability. All of those things in any combination could be a sign of employee disengagement or quiet quitting.
Al ElliottHmm, okay, okay. So let's say that I have seen some of those signs, and I'm like, okay, I'm pretty sure that 2 or 3 of the people on my team, they are doing this quiet quitting. How am I going to stop it from happening?
Leanne ElliottI think the first thing that you need to really consider as a business leader is your role in your employees wanting to quiet quit. And you're really taking control and accountability for engagement within your organisation. Engagement isn't mythical. It isn't a buzzword like quiet quitting. It's been around for a long while. It's tangible. It's measurable. And when it is measured, it means it can be monitored and it It can be improved, and employing— investing in employee engagement will reduce quiet quitting, whatever that is, and it is going to have direct and positive impacts on your business's performance. I think ultimately the first thing that, that you need to do is to fully understand the extent of quiet quitting or disengagement within your organisation as it currently stands. And that, as you all know already, you need to run a full engagement audit, including a survey, to gain the insights of how your employees are currently thinking and feeling about work. What that's also going to do as well is actually drill down into the areas that aren't working. Why are people choosing to quiet quit? Is it because of their managers? Is it because they don't have a clear connection and meaning to the work that they're currently undertaking? Are the workloads too high? There's a whole host of reasons it could be, and you need to understand exactly where the issue is to then be able to fix it, to mitigate quiet quitting within your organization.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. And I think the main thing you've mentioned there was that having a real reason to go into work. And if your work isn't meaningful, then surely you're just at some point either going to quiet quit or actually quit if you don't feel your work's meaningful. And even if you can't, like, let's say you have a young family and you have to earn this money, You're not going to be the same as someone who wakes up and goes into work an hour early because they've had a great idea they want to implement. You know, so I think that the actual recognition— sorry, the reason behind why you're going to work probably is key here, is it?
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think, I think it really is the starting point of everything. You know, why, why do people get out of bed and go to work for you rather than somebody else? You need to, you know, people need to have that, that reason. And I think there's a few different Things you can do to, to kind of improve reason or create reason within your organisation. And as I said, I'd always start with a, with a survey and actually understanding it straight up. But if you want to start to just, just kind of navigate the waters and see what you can do, then reason is a good place to start. You know, are you providing that, that clear, that energetic leadership? Do people have a vision? Do they have goals to strive to as an organisation? And then taking that a step further, And understanding the individual role of each employee in delivering that mission and contributing to the success of the organisation. And then I think finally is looking at the values of your organisation. Values should be lived and breathed. They're not just on the wall. So, how are you actually bringing those values to life, and how are you enabling people to connect with those values to this feeling of a greater good? So, I'm not just coming to work to pay my bills. I'm coming to work to contribute to something bigger than So, what else can, can business owners and managers do? I think the other thing to, to look at, as we've said, you know, once people have, um, the reason to go to work, they need to understand, um, how they contribute to it. But more so than that, do they have the freedom, um, you know, to, to interpret their work and to apply their strengths? Do they know that they are safe in their role? Do they feel trusted to deliver, including in a remote environment? I think finally, actually, you know, when you've got that reason you go to work, you understand what your individual role is in it, then making sure that employees are recognized for that. That's not just about, you know, good pay, benefits, um, or giving praise, giving feedback. It's also about enabling people to have a voice. If people are currently quiet quitting in your organization, the most powerful thing you could do as a leader is give those employees a Ask them, why do you feel like this? Why are you quiet quitting? What can we do as a business to transform this and reconnect you with your work and with the organisation?
Al ElliottBrilliant, brilliant. So, anything else we need to know about how to stop it from happening?
Leanne ElliottI think that often a mistake that businesses make is they'll do 1 or 2 engagement surveys, and then they'll just stop because they think, oh, you know, now people know that we, we care. And the reality is, you need to keep running those, not only for your people, But for you as a business owner, you need these insights to be able to understand where to invest in people and culture, so it's going to have a commercial, a positive commercial impact on your business. Run that survey every 12 months. I also recommend that you do a pulse check every 6 months. By pulse check, I mean a condensed version of your annual survey that really is targeting the areas that you've invested in to try and improve, just to make sure that those investments are actually paying off.
Al ElliottBrilliant.
Leanne ElliottAnd then I think finally, it's just, you know, track these engagement scores against your commercial performance. If employee engagement and the work you're putting into it is working, and quiet quitting is being eradicated, then you should see your return on investment in terms of happier customers, higher revenue, higher productivity, and higher profitability.
Al ElliottSo you should now have an idea of what quiet quitting is, Why employees might choose to quiet quit, and you'll also know how it's happening and how you can stop it from happening both now and in the future. Is there anything else you think that'll be important for our listeners to know?
Leanne ElliottI think it's just to remember this isn't a new thing. This has been around for a long time. We have a new term for it. Cool. And really, ultimately, step up, take accountability. If quiet quitting is happening in your business, if those signs are there that they are, Then do something about it. Get the insights, give your employees a voice, and put quiet quitting to bed for good.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Bravo. Okay, so if you've got any questions about this, any thoughts, any feedback, or even you've got an idea for a guest on the future episode, email podcast@oblonghq.com. There'll be some notes as well, some show notes, giving you some more links if you want to know more about employee engagement and how you could potentially work with Leanne, who is an expert in employee engagement, then go to oblonghq.com, and there's more information there. So shall we see everyone next time?
Leanne ElliottYep, see you next time! Bye-bye!