Episode 101 · 28 May 2024 · 41:52

101: Walmart’s RTO Drama, Leadership Courses, PLUS Stress Languages & Weekly Workplace Surgery - This Week in Work 28th May 2024

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Intro and weekly roundup setup
news roundup#podcast-intro #weekly-roundup
Walmart's RTO mandate and the research against it
news roundup#walmart #return-to-office #remote-work #research
Why leadership courses don't stick (and how to fix that)
news roundup#leadership-training #hbr #learning-development
Stress languages: imploders, exploders, fixers, numberers & deniers
news roundup#stress-management #communication #personality-types
Outsetter's choose-your-own-adventure compensation model
news roundup#compensation #benefits #employee-choice #startup
Workplace Surgery: Diversity in rural areas
workplace surgery#diversity #rural-areas #inclusion
Workplace Surgery: Inconsistent workplace initiatives
workplace surgery#workplace-culture #initiatives #management
Workplace Surgery: Difficult business partner
workplace surgery#business-partner #conflict-resolution #workplace-relationships

Show notes

Walmart's RTO Drama, Leadership Courses, PLUS Stress Languages & Weekly Workplace Surgery

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (business psychologist) break down Walmart's controversial return-to-office mandate and the research suggesting it won't help the bottom line, why most leadership courses fail to create lasting change, and how understanding your "stress language" could transform the way you handle pressure. Plus, the weekly Workplace Surgery tackles diversity in rural areas, inconsistent workplace initiatives, and a controlling business partner.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Walmart's RTO mandate — and the research that says it won't work Walmart has become the latest company to mandate a return to the office, with leadership claiming culture is stronger when workers are together. But a study by Mark Maher, Associate Professor of Business Administration at the University of Pittsburgh, suggests RTO mandates have zero impact on financial performance — while actively harming employee satisfaction. Leanne and Al unpack why "culture" is becoming a convenient excuse for control, and what the data actually says.

2. Why leadership courses don't create lasting change Al shares insights from a Harvard Business Review article by Michael D. Watkins on why most leadership training fails to translate back into the workplace. The problem? Attendees return inspired, but without a plan — and the ideas fade within weeks. The fix involves identifying the top takeaways, creating an implementation plan, and sharing the learning with your team before the momentum dies.

3. What's your stress language? Just as we have love languages, we apparently have stress languages too. Leanne breaks down the five categories: imploders (freeze response), exploders (fight response), fixers (tend-and-befriend), numberers (shut down emotionally), and deniers (pretend it's not happening). Understanding your default stress response — and your team's — could be the key to better communication under pressure.

4. Bonus: Outsetter's radical compensation model Al spotlights Jeff Wald's company, Outsetter, which pays every employee $100,000 a year regardless of role — no negotiation, no hierarchy. Instead, employees choose their own adventure when it comes to equity, benefits, and time off. It's a genuinely creative approach to compensation that challenges everything we assume about pay.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Diversity in rural areas: "How do I improve team diversity when I live in a predominantly white rural area?"
Inconsistent initiatives: "My manager keeps implementing new workplace culture initiatives, but none of them last. How do I help?"
Difficult business partner: "I run a company doing £10-20k a month, but my business partner is controlling and manipulative. Should I leave and start again?"

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.

Al ElliottYes, we are. If you just— I know I keep saying this— Tuesdays, Leanne and I, work roundup or workplace roundup, and then the weekly workplace surgery. Thursdays, interviews. Just want to say it until everyone just understands. Hello, Celeste. Let's not forget those people who've just come, who are brand new to us. Welcome, welcome. I think you'll like it here. Leanne, talking of liking things, is it not your favourite time of the week?

Leanne ElliottDo you know what, Al? I believe it is my favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup. Cue that jingle.

Al ElliottOkay, Leanne, what have you got?

Leanne ElliottWell, last week, Al, you might remember that we chatted about a survey that found that flexible and hybrid working is now the number one work perk that employees are looking for.

Al ElliottI do.

Leanne ElliottWell, bearing in mind we're also seeing a lot of return-to-work mandates or RTO mandates, Walmart has become the latest organization to issue a return to office, and it is demanding, as these organizations seem to, that hundreds of previously remote employees need to move within commuting distance of the company's main office in Arkansas or hubs near New York and San Francisco. And this is also amidst some pretty hefty layoffs, several hundred in fact. So not a great time for Walmart. So why the RTO mandate? CEO Doug McMillon told investors on the 16th of May that the company's culture—

Al ElliottHmm.

Leanne ElliottThat the company's culture is stronger when workers are together. He said, we make decisions faster, we're more creative, and we help develop the next generation of talent. Well, I mean, I hope that is the case and that this collaboration and development is done with intention, because if not, Doug is in for a nasty shock. If he is just looking for a financial fix, I don't believe it's going to work out, and I will tell you for why.

Al ElliottPlease do.

Leanne ElliottWell, a study by Mark Maher, who is the Associate Professor of Business Administration at the University of Pittsburgh, has found that RTO mandates have zero impact on the financial performance of a business. Yes, the researchers— this is proper academic research— the researchers identified S&P 500 firms with RTO mandates, and they examined the impact on employees, including job satisfaction, work-life balance, and how they rate the effectiveness of their managers after a firm has announced an RTO mandate. They then also importantly looked at how these outcomes impacted financial performance. Performance in the business. Their findings suggested that managers are using RTO for power grabbing and blaming employees for poor performance. They also provided evidence that RTO mandates hurt employee satisfaction but do not improve financial performance. They concluded their report with some recommendations. They said instead of focusing everyone back to in-office work, High-performing employees who perform well at home should be allowed to continue at home. This would benefit the employee as well as the firm in the long term through retention of high-performing employees who can more easily find other jobs. Monthly team-building activities in person can help to maintain company culture, which is essential for problem-solving and brainstorming new ideas. The lead researcher, Mark Maher, went on to say in an interview with Business Insider, I think firms need to treat the employee more humanely and also give them more flexibility. I see no reason for these big firms to treat their employees more harshly because they're working from home. Hear, hear. It seems, Al, we have scientific proof that RTO mandates do not work.

Al ElliottYeah, and I mean, if we're talking about financial, then, um, the old Sam Walton, I think was the founder of Walmart, was based on— basically everything was finances. But for, I think, I I think Walmart, I think they make sort of like about a 4% gross margin on their, on their business. So obviously you have to keep costs down. This just seems like a totally counterintuitive thing. And you know, the whole idea of saving costs, all right, that's what Walmart's based on. That's what a lot of businesses are based on. But I don't understand why bringing them back to the office is going to reduce the costs because surely more people in an office is gonna mean more energy, more money spent on energy. Um, more costs. I just don't get it. But maybe we're in the wrong, Leanne. Maybe everyone else has got it right.

Leanne ElliottWell, according to Mark Maher, we're not, Al. According to research out of University of Pittsburgh, we are not. I think it's interesting. And of course, you know, this is, this is all a big experiment post-COVID, isn't it? Hybrid working. And of course, there is other evidence which suggests that hybrid working can be challenging when it comes to employees setting their own healthy boundaries for work. And actually, they work longer, and that can impact on their well-being and work-life balance. But I think what frustrates me is if you want your people back in the office, just say you want people back in the office. Just say that's how you prefer to work and that's how you want your organization to work. Don't hide behind, oh, it's better for culture, it's better for collaboration, it's better for brainstorming. It's not. And there's lots and lots of research, research that shows that being in the office 5 days a week does not create a great workplace culture where people are collaborating and brainstorming. Let's just stop hiding behind workplace culture as the reason to get people back into the office. And yeah, hopefully there'll be more research that just underlines this point. If that's what you want to do, that's fine, but let's just be honest and transparent about it, shall we?

Al ElliottExcellent point. Like that. Stop hiding behind workplace culture just because you selfishly, you have to go to the office and you want everyone else to be there. No, I like that. That's, that's a really good point.

Leanne ElliottWhat have you seen this week, Al?

Al ElliottUh, well, in the HBR, which is the Harvard Business Review—

Leanne ElliottI've heard of that publication.

Al ElliottWe're very highbrow here. We read that most— well, don't read it most mornings, it just comes up from time to time. But it is actually really, really good. And I think it is a subscription only. But this, if I believe I've got this right, this article, which is linked in the show notes, you can actually access for free. I think it's weird, it says up to 4 times. I never know how they know. Like, if you jumped on your phone, how would they know?

Leanne ElliottHow do they know?

Al ElliottProbably cleverer people than us have worked it out. Anyway, so this person, Michael D. Watkins, he was a professor of leadership and organizational change. He's a co-founder of Genesis Advisors and the author of The 6 6 Disciplines of Strategic Thinking. Put my teeth in. Um, he came up with this idea, or in fact the entire article is about this idea. If you go on one of these courses, leadership courses, it's cool, you come back and it doesn't always go according to plan. So the idea is that if you do come back from one of these courses, then there are 5— I think he's got 5 things in the article that you should be doing. And definitely go and check out the articles. We're just going to cover a couple of them today. So you're going to come back, you're buzzing with enthusiasm, you want to tell everyone about what you've learned, you want to implement it straight away. He says, don't just— when someone says, how was it? Don't just open up and just start flooding them with all of the stuff that you've just learned, because that is going to put people off. Don't forget that if you've been away for, say, 2 days and you're trying to tell someone in 10 minutes everything that's gone on, you're just going to blow their mind. So what he suggests is before you go back to work, prepare a couple of like 60-second summaries.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottWith the main bits from the actual course. Because once you give someone that summary of going, oh yeah, these 3 things— by the way, power of 3. If you're in marketing, sales, anything, always try and put things in 3. If my mother's listening, who's an interior designer, she always says put vases in 3 or flowers in 3 because 3 is the magic number. Come up with 3 things that you're going to be able to talk about that you think are interesting. And I'll come on to this in a second. Doesn't have to be the same 3 for each individual person you speak to.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottAnd then just reiterate, okay, so yeah, there was loads of great ideas. The top 3 for me were 1, 2, and 3, which was— sorry, I just have to stop my computer from going to sleep. 1, 2, 3, these are the cool things.

Leanne ElliottHow rude. This is a good story, Al. Carry on, honestly.

Al ElliottFun fact, I've got this Mac and it's inherited all the settings from my MacBook Pro, and I don't understand why it wants to go to sleep at 6, and I can't stop it going to sleep at 6. Anyway, so it says that you should Come up with these 3 things and then just let the person ask questions about which of those 3 things interests them most. Now, the other top tip was to tailor this summary for different people. So, for example, if you're coming back and you're telling your team, you might tell them a different 3 things to perhaps your manager or the senior leadership that you might bump into in the hall. He said, the idea is that if you have this well-thought-out sort of, he calls it a re-entry pitch, which is quite cool, Then it can engage both— and this is coming from the article— engage both the hearts and the heads of the listeners and set the stage for the changes you want to make. Another thing which was kind of key was saying, don't expect to come back, implement the changes, and everyone to go, great, okay, this is what we're going to do. Because don't forget, you've been in an environment where you've been thinking very carefully about your organization. You've been thinking about all the challenges. You've learned loads of things. So you've got all that context in the back of your head. You come back and go, right, we're all going to wear suits and ties. Everyone's like, what? Oh God, Derek's come up with a new idea. This is gonna be, this is gonna be fun, isn't it? So obviously make sure that you—

Leanne ElliottDerek.

Al ElliottPoor Derek. If you listen to this, if you're a long-term listener, you'll know that Derek is always our fictional pejorative manager who's just, who's just a pain in the backside. So anyway, there are 3 other great strategies in that article. Definitely go and have a little look at it if you've been on a leadership course recently.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I think a lot of the time people forget to reflect, and reflective practice is really, really important, Especially when you're working with people. As Al said, what were your main takeaways? And then put yourself in the shoes of somebody else and think, well, what would my number 2 think were the main 3 priorities? What would my employee think were the 3 main priorities? Reflective practice is really useful because also then it's going to stop you from kind of going and going, you'll never guess what, it's going to change the world, because you've already reflected on it and thought, well, actually, maybe it's not, or maybe these 3 things are. Reflection out loud is fairly annoying. And also remember that people don't like change, even if it's change for the better. Even if it's change that's going to make the world a better place, we don't like change. We're not mentally, psychologically, biologically wired to enjoy change. Our brains are lazy. Um, so bear that in mind. Bear that in mind as well.

Al ElliottExcellent tips. Perhaps you should have written the article, Lee.

Leanne ElliottMaybe.

Al ElliottMaybe. What else you've seen, Lee?

Leanne ElliottHave you heard about love languages, Al?

Al ElliottI think so. I'm not quite sure what con— how we're going to fit them into the context of work, but Let's see.

Leanne ElliottOkay, um, so no, love languages, it's a fairly— you see it all over socials as well, don't you? It's basically kind of how, how do I like to be loved? How do I know that somebody loves me? What do I need to see from them to feel loved? So it's things like words of affirmation, saying nice stuff, quality time together, physical touch, acts of service. Um, so when perhaps I make the tea for Al at night, I don't know, is that— does that serve your love language?

Al ElliottIt does, it does. And perhaps when you come home from like 10 days away in the UK and someone goes to the garden, picks a load of flowers and hand makes a card to say welcome back. Perhaps that's an act of service.

Leanne ElliottWell, that would be receiving gifts, I think, which is definitely my love language.

Al ElliottYou do like a gift.

Leanne ElliottYes. Well, apparently we can, um, we have love language. Apparently we also have a stress language. So an article in HuffPost reported this week that the concept of stress languages explores how individuals react uniquely to stress, how it affects their communication, how it affects their interaction, and especially during the conflict itself. So Chantelle Donnelly, who is a physical therapist and stress researcher, introduced this idea to explain why people often feel misunderstood during stressful situations. She suggested that there are 5 categories of stress languages, much like there are 5 love languages. Would you like me to take, take you through them?

Al ElliottI would.

Leanne ElliottSo number 1 is the imploder. So this is a freeze response to a stressful situation, and the imploder may feel hopeless, helpless, and paralysed. The second is the exploder. So this is the fight or flight response to a stressful situation, and this person will likely have an inflated reaction to a stressful situation. They might get irritable, frustrated, or even angry, or even leave a situation that they can't handle. All together.

Al ElliottYeah, okay, I think I might fall into the second of those 2. If I stub my toe, then the, the words that fall out of my mouth, it's just horrendous. Sorry, carry on. So that's the first 2.

Leanne ElliottThat's the first 2. The 3rd is the fixer. This is, um, kind of a tend and befriend reaction. Typically we see it in women, um, and it's, it's really that, um, people pleasing, overstepping boundaries, mothering people, Um, who aren't, aren't your kids, or indeed even children. The fourth is the number, as in a person who numbs themselves, um, to the outside world when things aren't going well. I can't imagine who this is. Um, this person usually likes escapism, perhaps a gin and tonic after work, or indeed, um, just hides under a blanket for a couple of hours. Um, that's their coping mechanism for stress. And the final one is the denier. This is someone who possesses toxic positivity. Activity in response to stress and can be overly optimistic to avoid reality. So apparently the first 3, so the exploder, the imploder, and the fixer, are biologically based, and the last 2, which is the denier and the number, are those, um, that people use strategies on a regular basis to overcome or manage stress. Well, how do you know which one you are? It might be as easy as just Just one sounds more familiar than the other. Um, Chantelle suggests that you should look for stress response patterns in yourself and in others when you're having a rough day. Um, she also mentions as well that you can actually fall into multiple categories of stress depending on the situation, um, or indeed the person who is making you feel stressed. Um, yeah, thoughts, Al?

Al ElliottI like that she said that you can fall into multiple situations because I think that Depending on the level of the stress, the type of stress, then I can definitely see me falling into at least two of those depending on what kind of stress is going on. It's interesting the number because that just describes you perfectly, and and it's I think what's what's kind of cute and I kind of like is that if you go very quiet and just walk out the room, I know that something is like really really stressful. I tried to log in before my My keyboard stopped working. So I was like, oh my God, my keyboard stopped working. I have to buy a new keyboard. I have to, I have to go to the shop and buy an actual wired keyboard just to log in. And whereas Leanne just kind of went, oh, press a different button and it worked. So I definitely see that I fell into one of those, but potentially in a different situation, you know, like, I don't know, the dog runs off or something and I'm like, oh my God, he's gonna run on the road. That's where I might fall into a different one. So this is kind of interesting. And do you think that Potentially, if you're at work, it might— you might react in different ways, whether you are a manager dealing with a team and there's a lot of stress, or whether you're a manager talking to perhaps a senior leadership and there's a, there's a stressful conversation going on.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I think so. I think lots of managers out there will be, will be very much— the, the fixer would have resonated with them, want to just make it all, all okay. Um, and I'm sure there's some entrepreneurial business leaders out there who are probably thinking, yeah, that, that positivity sounds about right. I'll be fine, it'll be fine. I'll just loan another £25,000. What's the worst that can happen? I'll be fine.

Al ElliottBeen there. Borrowed £103,000, went bankrupt. So, uh, yeah, maybe don't borrow quite as much as you think you need.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, there's a big caveat here. I haven't read the original research. I don't know if it's been, you know, how robust it is, if it's been peer-reviewed. This is probably more for entertainment and information purposes than taking this very serious tactic. Forward. Um, but you know what, as I always say, if it provides you with the vocabulary you need to better understand yourself, to better understand other people, so be it. So sad times. Our favourite time of the week is over for another week. If you do have a story that you think we should know about, that we should chat about, send it in. We'd love to see it. Or tag us on socials. That's another really easy way, easy way to do it. Another news roundup, uh, we'll be with you again next Tuesday because I just love it So much. Speaking about loving things, Alistair, I believe last night I was— I'm— maybe I was numbing. I might have been numbing with a gin and tonic. Um, but you were trying to tell me something that you'd seen on Twitter, and I was like, is this potentially a segment for the podcast? You went, do you know what I think it is? I went, surprise me then. Surprise me with it tomorrow. So here we go, Al. Surprise me.

Al ElliottWhat I love is that Leanne's basically going, I don't want to hear about it now. Shut up, Al. We were talking about this, this Jeff guy. So on Twitter/X, I don't know how to call it. I suppose I should be calling it X. I saw a tweet which basically it's by a guy called Jeff Roberts, uh, who is the co-founder of Outsetter. Also really interesting background. He was really heavily involved in, I think it's called Buildera, which is another, um, another startup that got acquired. Um, interesting guy. And he pays everyone $210,000.

Leanne ElliottWow.

Al Elliott$100,000 a year. Not like— it just pays everyone. Everyone. Doesn't matter what you do, that's how much you get paid.

Leanne ElliottWhat do people typically do in his business?

Al ElliottSo Outsetter is— it's— they describe themselves as an all-in-one payments authentication, CRM, email, and help desk platform for SaaS and membership businesses.

Leanne ElliottSnappy.

Al ElliottDon't say that. I took it directly from his, from his, uh, profile. So, uh, you're criticizing his copywriting.

Leanne Elliottthere.

Al ElliottBut what I, what I understand is that if you have some kind of SaaS or membership business, then Outsetter is going to be essentially your HubSpot for you. It's going to deal with everything for you. Um, quite an interesting business. Um, co-started it with someone he met at Builderall. I want to say Builderall, maybe it was Builderall. Apologies if I've got that wrong, but just really interesting guy. And so the whole idea at Outsetter is that they offer this sort of choose your own adventure. Remember those, Leanne, when you were kids, choose your own adventure? If you want to meet the robot, go to page 43.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottIt was exactly that. And so they choose— they have this choose-your-own-adventure compensation model, which basically helps the— or allows the employee to set their own salary, their own workdays, and also earn equity. So for example, everyone who works 5 days a week earns $210,000 a year. That's what they work. And then there's a sliding scale. If you want to work 4 days a week, then it's prorated down to 4 days. If you want to work just 1 day a week, top of my head, I think it was $42,000 it works out at. But basically it is a fraction of of the $210,000. I thought this was really interesting. Now, one thing that we didn't really go properly into on the article, um, was how they earn equity, because according to Jeff, he's saying you earn equity at the same rate as the founders. Um, but everything else just seemed really smart. And I think the— and it even showed this kind of like graphic of a dial. I mean, I don't know whether it was just made for the actual post, but the dial where you just basically, you turn the dial to go to, I'm doing 4 days a week, and then this is how much you earn.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottSo, it's a really smart way of doing things.

Leanne ElliottYes, very creative. Very creative. I think, yeah. I mean, what I want, if anyone's listening and going, that's a brilliant idea, I should implement it in my business immediately, hold on a second. I think it's worth remembering the what and the why. So, this is what Jeff is doing. The why, as we've talked about, it's about providing flexibility. It allows people to choose a working pattern or ways of working, or indeed, Salary that they need to facilitate the life that they want, whether they have a significant side hustle, whether they have children, whether they have caring responsibilities. So I think it's actually the flexibility and autonomy that's really exciting about this, and the agency you're giving to an employee in terms of choosing their own working working patterns and working life—not necessarily the exact structure that that Jeff has has used. My only do you know what? My only concern. And I think it is a really good idea because of this, as I said, this flexibility, this autonomy, this agency. My only concern would be the people that go, oh yeah, 4-day work week, that sounds nice, and then actually end up squeezing 5 days into 4 days' work and then aren't getting compensated for it. I'm sure there are mechanisms in place to prevent this from happening. I know you mentioned there that people, you know, pick kind of their tasks and stuff as well. Um, so I'm sure there's, um, there's mechanisms in place to prevent this from happening and people overworking and not getting compensated for it. Um, so that'd be only— again, if you're, if you're listening to this going, oh, this is a cool idea, something worth bearing in mind. And I think it'll be that 4 to 5 days that's going to give them the real tricky thing, um, in terms of managing people's time. But all in all, cool idea, like it.

Al ElliottWell, we spoke to— I spoke to Jeff on Twitter and said, would you like to come on the pod? And he was like, yes, I would.

Leanne ElliottHey, go on, Jeff.

Al ElliottYeah. So by the time you hear this, we'll have interviewed Geoff, we'll have asked him all the questions that hopefully you've got in your head, and we'll find exactly how it works because it's, it could be a really interesting way. And also just from financially modelling, you can just go, right, well, you know, it's just, it's a spreadsheet. This is how much money we've got. All right, we can't take anyone else on. And that might also be another question to ask. What happens if you spend all your wage bill and there's still, there's gaps in the business and you can't bring someone else on?

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al Elliottat that level. So, I will ask all the difficult questions that are in your head when I speak to Geoff.

Leanne ElliottCool. And sorry about the copy thing, Geoff. It really is very catchy.

Al ElliottHe's definitely going to change it now. Okay, so we are going to have a short break, and we'll be back in about 60 seconds with the Workplace Weekly Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. See you in a second.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number 101 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Leanne ElliottThe audio destination.

Al ElliottBusiness professionals. Seamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back, and it is the Weekly Workplace Surgery. Got 3 questions to put to Leanne this week, and, um, she's gonna basically answer them for you. Now, just, just as in case you've joined us at this point, Leanne is a business psychologist. She is incredibly knowledgeable about all kinds of workplace, but she hasn't seen these questions, so I'm just going to spring them on her.

Leanne ElliottI have hijacked the 3rd question though.

Al ElliottHave you?

Leanne ElliottYeah, I've got one for you.

Al ElliottOkay. All right. Well, here we go. And this, we've been talking about Sonia Tunson from Inclusion and Marketing. This is probably more of a question for her, but I'd be interested in your thoughts of it. Here's, here's, here's the question. I live in a rural, predominantly white area, and I'm facing a challenge with improving diversity in my team. I really want to hire people of colour to be more inclusive, but we simply don't get enough applicants. And those who do apply often don't meet our needs. I'm guessing like the minimum standards that they're looking for. I genuinely want to be inclusive, but I feel stuck and unsure of how to move on. Leanne, any thoughts or advice?

Leanne ElliottTricky, tricky, tricky, tricky. And I understand because I, I too grew up in a rural community where there weren't many people of colour. Um, so I understand. Um, I guess, I guess it's usual tactics. Try and diversify your candidate pool as a first, first step. So looking at organizations, either job boards that, um, specifically support people of color, um, perhaps different areas, uh, where there are colleges or universities that might have a more, um, diverse population. Yeah, things like that where you can try and diversify the, the funnel, the candidates coming in and actually applying for jobs. I'm sure there will be specialized recruiters out there as well. Um, of course it Depends on your area. I mean, if you offer remote work, this is an ideal thing, or it could be that you consider offering, offering remote work so you can look further afield outside of your rural town to more cosmopolitan places where there are more people of colour, more diversity. Finally, I would say if you're really struggling with that, then are there other ways you can diversify your team or your company? For example, do you have contractors or vendors that you work with? Are they diversified? In terms of your customer base, you appealing to to people of color through your marketing? Is that a way to diversify? And I think finally, it's looking at if this one demographic is just really really tough where you are, you only offer on-site working for a particular reason. You simply don't have you know the demographics or the volume of diversity that that you're required to find the specific people you need to meet your your job criteria. Then maybe look at there are other ways to diversify your workforce beyond. Um, skin color beyond ethnicity. You can look at neurodiversity. You could look at your male and female split, your non-binary population, your LGBTQ+ community in your organization. There are many different ways to bring in diversity to a team. So if you're really constrained with the geographical location of your business, that might be something to look at as well. But I would definitely go and check out Sonia Thompson's podcast, Inclusion and Marketing. She'll have some much better advice. But there are some, some starting points for tactics, but if you're after a strategy, go and ask Sonia.

Al ElliottYeah, and I think maybe, you know, there's going to be other businesses in your organisations in your area who have got the same problem. Perhaps see if you can just noise up one of them. Go and find someone who has got perhaps a bit more diverse team, um, and might not be your competitor, and just say to them, can you do, you know, have you got 20 minutes for a coffee? I just want to ask you this. I think the majority of decent human beings, if, if they have a diverse team, then, um, you go to them and say, look, I'd really like one, but I'm just struggling because, you know, the talent pool just doesn't seem to be there. I'm sure they've got some really, really good advice. There's other options as well, like satellite offices could be a potential one. So I know when Leanne grew up, she was North Wales, but Chester and Manchester are quite close.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottSo it's possible you can, you can go and find yourself a small office over there. Set up a little satellite office where your talent pool is perhaps a little bit more diverse than— and I don't want to sound like I'm being anything bad against North Wales, but as Leanne said, it kind of—

Leanne ElliottIt's very white. It just is. It just is. I mean, the other thing as well is it's looking at your actual recruitment practices. I kind of mentioned in terms of the candidate funnel, but also the practices themselves. It's as simple as putting on your job description that candidates that meet 60% of the criteria are welcome to apply. Um, because typically women and people of color, um, won't apply for a job unless they hit 100% of the criteria, whereas typically white men will apply if they only hit 60% of the criteria. And that's not a case of saying, oh well, I'll, I'll take somebody onto my business that is only 60% capable because they represent a demographic I'm trying to bring into my business. It's actually just that, that sometimes women, people of color aren't, aren't as good in application process, it kind of put themselves out there, and it turns out they do have the skills and competencies. They just might need to, to demonstrate those in different ways throughout the recruitment process. There's a brilliant book called Conscious Inclusion by Catherine Garrett. She has been on the show. I can't remember the episode number, but we'll leave a link in the show notes. She's written a brilliant book which basically, like, I think it's like 50 or 52 decisions you can make to, um, to build inclusion and diversity within your business. It's all these little things like that, these little tweaks that that you can do that will, you know, add up to a massive, a massive impact in terms of, of engaging different demographics. So I'd recommend checking that out as well.

Al ElliottImpressive. You said you weren't sure that you have much to add to this, and you did. It was all incredible.

Leanne ElliottTactics, tactics. I think in terms of strategy, I think you need an expert in EDI. No?

Al ElliottYeah, exactly. So Sonia Thompson, uh, Thompson, uh, Catherine Garrett, uh, that book— I've had a little scan through the book. sitting behind me actually, and it is, uh, and it's really, really good. The interview with her was amazing. As I say, we'll put it in the show notes. I can't remember either what, what episode number it was. Come on now, we're on 101 now. How are we supposed to remember every single one? Although Pat Flynn does. Anyway, okay, you ready? On to question number 2.

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottSo this person writes, my manager keeps implementing new initiatives to improve workplace culture, but none of them ever stick. She seems to jump from one shiny new idea to the next without giving any of them a real chance to take root. It is starting to create confusion and frustration among the team. Is there anything I can do to help her make these initiatives more consistent and effective? I'm sensing a slight amount of politeness in that last thing. Anything I can do to help her make these initiatives more consistent and effective? Basically, how can I stop her from coming up with a brand new— reading a book on Sunday and implementing it on Monday? What are your thoughts, Lee?

Leanne ElliottI would sit down with your manager and say that exactly what, you know, your, your question was. Say that, you know, I say I know your heart's in the right place, you're doing this to create a better environment. The truth is, because there isn't much consistency to it, or because there's not, um, you know, much— I guess enough time given to these interventions, they're not sticking in. It's becoming disruptive. I think it sounds like your manager is very entrepreneurial and they do like new shiny things. It might be that you're in a great position to offer yourself as a trusted number 2 who is more operational, who will approach these interventions with a bit more of a change management process and a bit more patience. I— it sounds like you're— you've got a lot of respect and care for your manager. It sounds like this might not be their execution, isn't their skill set, but it could well be yours or somebody else in the business. I would sit down, have a cup of coffee, say this is some constructive feedback that comes from a place of respect and love for what you're doing, but it's not working. Can we talk together about ways that this could be more effective? And go with some ideas. So if you've got— there's a specific intervention that you're thinking of that you're like, actually, that would have really worked well, it just needed this tweak, this tweak, and maybe another month. So things like, do you remember we did that no meetings Friday? Um, but then this meeting creeped in, actually had to do this, and then you ended up doing a big You know, news and views on a Friday afternoon. What if I manage that? And what if we put some process in place that people's diaries are blocked out? It'd be technology that will mean you just can't physically put, put a meeting in. I'd say go with, go with an example of how you would have run the intervention differently and how you see that playing out. And particularly if you can speak to some of your colleagues as well and maybe think, you know, of the 5 interventions that have been tried, these are the 2 that we really would have liked to have seen stick and go back to your manager with that, then I think it sounds like they'll be quite open to discussing that and then potentially delegate that to somebody else, maybe even yourself. But if they do, make sure you get paid for that, friend. If that's not part of your job description, then make sure it's reflected in, in your, um, in your salary or indeed bonuses. That's what I'd say. It sounds like this person's coming from the right— they're coming from the right place with the right intention, but maybe just execution isn't their strong point. What do you think, Al?

Al ElliottYeah, I think you summed it up perfectly there. I mean, there's one other consideration is that, uh, this manager wants to implement all these things, but then senior leadership, uh, stop them. So they say, right, no meetings on a Friday, and then suddenly, you know, the CEO's like, right, everyone's going to come in on a Friday. So I think when that's the situation, you can either look at it 2 ways. You can go, right, well, um, I have no control whatsoever because they're just going to steamroller over my ideas. Or you can go back to the team and say, look, this is what I want to do. Just bear in mind that if another team has to meet— let's take the no meetings Fridays as an example— if another team can only meet on a Friday, we might have to make that, like, concession for that particular Friday. But this is more like, it's the— it's— this is what we're aiming for, is that 90% of Fridays have no meetings. And if it's absolutely unavoidable, then we will have it. And I think that that's— I think that's one of the issues. I think a lot of people who try and create initiatives in businesses, they, they sort of come and go, right, so we're going to change everything. And it's like, well, you can't, because if you're doing it with customers, you're doing it with your team, whatever, there's always going to be stuff which is going to need some kind of, uh, concession. Is that the right word? Where you— yeah, some kind of like—

Leanne ElliottYou need a bit of flexibility with every policy, isn't there?

Al ElliottYeah. Yeah. So I think there's that as well. I think it was a great idea to go back, go back to them and just talk to them about it, because it might be— you'll find out at that point. Whether they're actually just, just, you know, a book junkie who loves reading this stuff on a Friday, loves the idea of implementing it, and then just loses interest the second they've sent the email saying this is what's going to happen. And you'll find that out by talking to them, I think.

Leanne ElliottAl, I have a question for you.

Al ElliottOkay.

Leanne ElliottSo this person says, hey, I need some advice around a difficult business position.

Al ElliottSounds rude.

Leanne ElliottThey say, I run a company doing between £10,000 and £20,000 a month. Congratulations, my friend. They say, I caught my business partner talking negatively about me behind my back with his best friend, which led to prolonged stress from my end. I asked for advice from another source, and they advised me to sit down and tell him how I felt and how I felt and how I felt with him going behind my back. I did this. He took it well. He apologized, took accountability, and said it wouldn't happen again. A week later, I found it did happen again, and now I am seriously considering leaving this company and focusing on my own venture. It's not only because of this, but my business partner is controlling, hard to work with, arrogant, and low-key manipulative. So I have been building up resentment ever since I started to notice these things and have been told by close friends and family how much better off I would be in business without him. So I have a decision to make, stay in this partnership or leave and start my own venture.

Al ElliottHmm, that's kind of a tough one because up until halfway through or three-quarters of the way through that, I thought maybe it's just your business partner is venting. Maybe this is how they work through problems. Um, and so it might be that they sit down with someone and go, my business partner is a— he or she is, or they are the right pain in the backside because they keep saying this and keep saying this. And, and that's And they've got it out of the system, then they go back to work and everything's fine.

Leanne ElliottBut let's take it, like you say, let's take it at face value. Let's assume that this is true.

Al ElliottThis is a real tough one. And it's also testament to the, uh, or it also underlines the fact that if you are going to go into business with someone, you need to be 100% sure. It's like a marriage. You're gonna spend probably as much, if not potentially more time with your business partner and with more at risk than you would be with a spouse. Um, so be really careful of that. Like Leanne always says, it needs a bit more context, but if this was me and I was experiencing this, I think I would be looking at alternative routes out. Uh, perhaps there could be some deals to be made. Perhaps this is just the business partner trying to force you out. If you go back to our episode with Joe Fear, he talks about how business— what him and his business partner How they kind of split up for a bit and then went back together for a bit and split up for a bit. Such an interesting episode. And Joe is so, so honest about everything. Definitely go back and listen to that and see if there's any kind of, um, any kind of similarities, because there could be like, it could be A, you just need to split up. You need, you need to, you need to get out of the company and move on. Could be B, you just need to knuckle down and get on with it. Or it could be C, that actually you split up, um, even temporarily, right? Okay. One of you will take a sabbatical or something.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottAnd then you'll find that after a period of time, the person left will realize, oh, well, that's why we had this person in, because my business partner, because they took care of all the stuff that I don't care about. So I think it's going to be a tough one. I'm sorry, it's not a, it's not a, you should do this. In my opinion, I will be looking at other alternative routes. But of course, there's a financial aspect to that, because if you're walking away from a business and you're a business partner, It's always difficult to negotiate if you're— if, if you have decided you're going to leave and the other person knows you want to leave, which could also as well just be of them looking to drive you out potentially. Because if they've exhibited the same behavior and they've apologized for it and said it wouldn't happen again and done it again, it's got back to you again, maybe it's deliberately getting back to you with an idea of getting you out. I don't know.

Leanne ElliottIt is tricky. And I wonder— I'm with you, Al. Like, I thought this was maybe just a case of all You know, maybe he's just venting. You don't have to get on all the time. It's just about civility. It's not about being best mates. But if they are displaying these more— these darker behaviors and characteristics, then that is, that is more concerning, um, because typically these behaviors are just going to get more pronounced and more regular over time, particularly with stress and particularly with the stresses that come with building a business. My thought would be to try and untangle this a little bit as well with some reflection, writing some stuff down in terms of what is specifically bothering you about his behavior, a particular behavior that you are finding particularly toxic that is making you more stressed. And then I think thinking honestly about, you know, if you didn't— if you did decide to leave the business, what would you do and what would that look like? And how much runway do you have and what ideas do you have and how easy would that be? to replace that level of income. Um, because there is a big practical element to this as well, as Al said. It does on the surface of it sound like this isn't a, you know, a long-term relationship in your life. It sounds to me a bit more, a bit more like it's not about if you're gonna, um, leave the business and start something else, it's more about when and how you're going to go about that.

Al ElliottAnd if you do go ahead and leave the business, then try to leave on as good terms as you can. Don't be tempted to take any kind of IP or anything with you, because if this person is already bullying you a little bit, then they're just going to legally bully you, and it'll make your life not worthwhile. Um, and maybe take a little bit of time off if you're able to financially when you do. If you do exit, go and take a bit of time away. Try and get away for a bit. Um, you reflect on it, and— But you've got to look at your long term, and if you're young enough, you might be able to build something else up. You probably will be able to build something else up if you're Not— don't feel like you can or you haven't got the energy, then just try and get a buyout that will set you in good stead.

Leanne ElliottYeah, it's about separating the emotion and the practicality here, I think, isn't it? You know, life is full of transitions— different jobs, different businesses, different countries, different partners. Um, that's just a part of life. It's how we navigate and how we manage those transitions in a way that, that sets us up well for the next, the next phase, the next chapter of our, of our lives, of our career. So, I'd say, don't make any impulsive decisions. Try to resist the temptation of, as Al said, getting angry about it in a heated confrontation. This needs to be a planned measure. Draw on your skills. You're a business owner. You do this. We deal with crisis all the time in terms of, I'm sure, customers or services or technology. Draw on those same skills to work out how to manage this transition too.

Al ElliottAbsolutely. In short, I think you've got this. I think you've got it. Just be level-headed. Leanne, I think that's the end of our episode. Is there anything we've missed?

Leanne ElliottI don't think so. Join us again on Thursday. We'll have another expert guest interview for you. Um, like, subscribe, uh, leave a review. It really is the best way to support the podcast if you enjoy this content. That's the type of stuff you can do to make sure we can keep Absolutely.

Al ElliottIf you are interested in getting in touch with either one of us, you can see our details in the show notes, but also on LinkedIn, search for Truth, Lies and Work. And there is a page there that Leanne administers, and she will definitely be very happy to talk to you. As I mentioned last week as well, people didn't know this, that Leanne gives half an hour free away to someone who— not just anyone, but if you, if you have a specific issue or you're a business owner, Then yeah, you can book, you can book some time with Leanne. So just check out the show notes.

Leanne ElliottSee you next week.

Al ElliottBye-bye.

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