Episode 107 · 18 June 2024 · 42:18

Adam Grant on Hybrid Working, Dealing with Burnout AND Hugging Trees..? This Week in Work 18th June 2024

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Forest bathing: the new workplace wellness trend?
news roundup#forest-bathing #wellness #workplace
Adam Grant on hybrid working
news roundup#adam-grant #hybrid-work #leadership
Pride Month and financial well-being
news roundup#pride-month #financial-wellbeing #diversity
Book Club: The Psychology of Secrets by Andrew Gold
news roundup#book-club #psychology #secrets
Book Club: Find Your Yellow Tux by Jesse Cole
news roundup#book-club #leadership #inspiration
Workplace Surgery: building rapport in a new leadership role
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery #leadership #rapport
Workplace Surgery: dealing with burnout and social isolation
workplace surgery#burnout #social-isolation #mental-health
Workplace Surgery: success - logic or manifestation?
workplace surgery#success #logic #manifestation

Show notes

Adam Grant on Hybrid Working, Dealing with Burnout AND Hugging Trees..? This Week in Work

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the science of forest bathing, Adam Grant's latest data on hybrid working, and the financial challenges facing the LGBTQ+ community during Pride Month. Plus, two book recommendations that couldn't be more different, and three listener questions on leadership, burnout, and whether success comes from logic or manifestation.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Forest bathing: therapeutic method or just a walk in the woods? Forest bathing — the Japanese practice of immersing yourself in nature — is becoming a workplace wellness trend. Research suggests it lowers cortisol and improves wellbeing, but Al and Leanne dig into whether the benefits come from the trees or simply from being away from your phone and the office.

2. Adam Grant's hybrid working data Adam Grant shared research showing hybrid working improved job satisfaction and reduced quit rates by a third. The magic number seems to be 2-3 days a week in the office. Al and Leanne explore why that sweet spot works and what it means for the return-to-office debate.

3. Pride Month: the financial challenges facing the LGBTQ+ community As Pride Month continues, the conversation turns to financial well-being — from housing stability to healthcare costs. The key takeaway: don't just create a new initiative for Pride Month; embed support year-round.

📚 Book Club

Leanne's pick: The Psychology of Secrets: My Adventures with Murders, Cults, and Influencers by Andrew Gold A fascinating dive into why we keep secrets and their psychological impact — featuring stories from cult leaders to everyday people.

Al's pick: Find Your Yellow Tux by Jesse Cole, owner of the Savannah Bananas baseball team Marketing advice with a twist: discover what makes you unique and lean into it. Jesse bought a struggling baseball team and turned them into a phenomenon by doing things differently.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

New leadership role: "I'm adopting a team of 8 who are all tenured within the business, spread across three locations. How do I build rapport?"
Burnout: "I'm struggling to balance work and my social life — I'm burnt out and worried people at work don't like me."
Success: "I've been learning about successful people like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Larry Ellison. Is success about logic or manifestation?"

(Got a question? Email hi@truthliesandwork.com or leave a comment on our YouTube channel.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.

Al ElliottYes. Welcome to another Tuesday episode where we've got for you, we've got the news roundup, we've got a book segment which is relatively new. I think it's just here for the summer. And then we also have the world-famous weekly workplace surgery. See, I said it right this time, Le.

Leanne ElliottYou've been practicing.

Al ElliottI mean, you're a tiger.

Leanne ElliottIs that your morning affirmation?

Al ElliottIt is. I need some face paint so I can put the tiger face on.

Leanne ElliottDo it again.

Al ElliottI'm a tiger.

Leanne ElliottI like it.

Al ElliottOkay, Leanne, before we kick off, is there anything that you need to tell us? Tell me, tell the listeners.

Leanne ElliottIs there? I don't think so.

Al ElliottIt did sound like I was expecting you to say, well, yes, well, actually, I ate the last Jaffa Cake. You exposed me.

Leanne ElliottYou're accusing me for something. I didn't eat the last Jaffa Cake, actually. I believe there's still some in the cupboard.

Al ElliottThere's one because I've had the penultimate Jaffa Cake.

Leanne ElliottDid you eat the second to last Jaffa Cake?

Al ElliottI ate the second to last Jaffa Cake.

Leanne ElliottSpeaking of Jaffa Cakes.

Al ElliottYes, this is going to be the world's best segue. Carry on, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottIt's my favourite time of the week.

Al ElliottIt's Jaffa Cake time.

Leanne ElliottNope, it's time for the news roundup. I'll cue that jingle.

Al ElliottProfessional as always. Okay, Leanne, so what have you got?

Leanne ElliottI have a new term for you.

Al ElliottI like a new term. Go on.

Leanne ElliottForest bathing.

Al ElliottOh yeah, oh yeah, this sounds a little bit new agey and a bit, um—

Leanne ElliottWoo.

Al ElliottWoo is the word I was looking for. I was trying to think of it, think whether you're going to kick off me saying the word woo.

Leanne ElliottNo, well, he— well, apparently forest bathing is becoming a thing. It's a therapeutic method, if you've not heard of it before, of connecting with nature, and it basically involves immersing oneself in a forest setting to engage the senses fully Minus the distractions of our digital devices. Essentially, it's going for a walk in somewhere green.

Al ElliottYeah, I was about, I was about to call— oh shit, excuse me, sorry.

Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, you don't have to get naked. Um, it's probably better if you don't unless it's specifically allowed in places. But if you're at a nudist beach, why not? In fact, I think you have to if you're at a nudist beach, don't you?

Al ElliottBut if you're in the New Forest, perhaps, you know, around a children's play area, maybe keep, keep those pants on, perhaps?

Leanne ElliottYes, maybe clothing is, is encouraged. Um, but research into forest bathing is also now becoming a thing, and it's growing. Um, and it is actually showing some significant health benefits. So I was reading an article, a 2018 meta-analysis. So a meta-analysis, that's when we take the data from lots of different studies and put it all together to have a massive sample, and then we analyse that. So it's like It's like the, the king of the studies, the meta-analysis. Yeah, but a meta-analysis highlighted that forest bathing reduced blood pressure, cortisol levels, which is our stress hormone, and heart rate amongst participants. So basically put us in a more calming state. More impressively, regularly engaging in activities like forest bathing decreased rates of diabetes, lowered cardiovascular disease, and overall mortality.

Al ElliottI have a theory. It's because one, You don't have your phone with you, so that reduces your cortisol. And 2, there's not too many Greggs bakeries in the forest, so perhaps that's what's reducing your, your fat levels and your diabetes. Perhaps.

Leanne ElliottYou have just, just called out the old age argument. And when it comes to any type of human behavior research, are we talking about causation or correlation? And what you're suggesting there is we're talking about correlation. And in fact, the forest is not the cause of such health impacts, But we don't know this. Dr. Kirsten McCowan from the University of Derby does though. She actually said that she was initially, initially skeptical about the practice but has found compelling evidence of its benefits. Her research in the UK has shown that forest bathing can improve heart rate variability by 12%, potentially shifting individuals from high-risk category for cardiovascular disease to a low-risk category. So it seems as though spending some time amongst the trees might well be good For our health, investigation is going on. But theory suggests that that nature might be good for us. It's um, it's almost a bit daft really, isn't it? When you think about it, that it's like oh my goodness, maybe nature is actually where we're meant to be as a species, having done that for millions of years, and only just since the Industrial Revolution, what 150, 200 years ago, actually now live the life that we do. And arguably, with technology in the palm of our hands, only for the last 20 years, and it's a wonder. why we're struggling. Um, but that is the breakthrough. Apparently we need to go back to nature.

Al ElliottThat's what we've done for millennia. Well, not probably not millennia, but we've done for a very long time as a species is be outside. So yes, definitely everything in moderation, including forest bathing.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, I think, I think you're right. I think this, this could be— is it, is it actually the walking that's helping? Is it the breathing more consistently that's helping? Is it our not having, you know, those constant dopamine spikes from our phone? There could be a whole lot of reasons, and I don't think it'd be a massive surprise to anybody that actually going outside and taking a walk is gonna be good for you. It's like your mum used to say, isn't it? Get outside, it'll do you some good. And she was usually right. And apparently, according to science, she was.

Al ElliottDo you know what you should do? I've read, I read this story about this very clever couple, brother and sister, and what they did was when they went into a forest, they just dropped sweets on the ground so they could find their way back out.

Leanne ElliottSuch doofuses.

Al ElliottSo just a thought. I mean, I'm just— this is just life hacks. These are, these are life hacks.

Leanne ElliottLet's move on. Al, what have you got?

Al ElliottWell, Adam Grant.

Leanne ElliottOh yeah.

Al ElliottThe Adam Grant, the guy who, if you're listening, Adam, get on the pod. We've, we've been, we want you on the pod anyway. So Adam Grant is the, like the grandfather of all workplace culture. He tweeted the other day, he said, managers, keep your people, let them work from home 2 days a week. And before you yawn and go, yeah, yeah, we've talked about this. Specifically here we're talking about is 2 days a week. He quoted this experiment with 1,600 people. Over 2 years, and they were randomly assigned hybrid work. And what this study found was it was increased satisfaction, reduced quitting, especially for women and long commuters, and there was zero downside of it. I will link to the tweet in the show notes, but this is basically the report by a guy called Nicholas Bloom, someone else called— now I'm going to read this— Ruobing Han. I'm so sorry if I butchered that. And James Liang. And there is an abstract, which from what I've understood from Leanne is basically a summary. But even that was a bit too verbose for me. So the couple of things I picked out was here we ran a 6-month randomized control trial investigating the effects of hybrid working from home on 1,612 employees in a Chinese technology company in 2021. I love how scientists don't go, oh, we did 60— like marketers will go, oh, we did, we did like almost 2,000 people. They were like, no, 1,612.

Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.

Al ElliottWe found that hybrid working improved job satisfaction and reduced quit rates by 1/3. The reduction in quit rates was significant for non-managers, female employees, and those with long commutes. If you're a manager, hold on, I've got something for you. Hybrid working did not affect performance over the next 2 years. We found no evidence for a difference in promotions over the next 2 years. And if you're a coder, hybrid working had no effect on the lines of code written by computer engineer employees. Interesting. I wonder if they were forest bathing at the time. 395 managers in the experiment revised their surveyed views about the effect of hybrid working from a perceived negative effect, -2.6%, to a perceived positive effect, 1%. Basically what it's saying is hybrid work might work for some of us full-time, and it might not work for some of us at all. But this study is telling us that in this particular situation, 2 days a week was the magic number. 2 days a week working from home, and it did not damage performance, reduced quit rates, and just basically made everyone a little bit happier, which I think we all kind of— I think I'm guessing most of us knew that. But, um, I don't know, that 2 days a week is kind of a magic thing.

Leanne ElliottYeah, it does seem to be, isn't it? 2 or 3 days a week seems to be the magic number. And I guess it's just somewhere in the middle, isn't it? Um, it's interesting, the research that's coming out now on hybrid working. And I think we talked about some a couple of weeks ago as well that showed a similar thing, that it had no impact on on performance, um, negative or positive really. Um, it's just where you work, isn't it? It's context. And I think this is where hopefully the research is going to really emphasize it doesn't really matter if your employees are in office or at home. It's about the environment you create for them, the culture you create for them that's going to motivate their performance. Nice to see that managers starting to change their mind. I understand that lack of control, how you've always done it, and you can be a bit, a bit, um, uncertain. You can feel a bit insecure in your ability to lead. Um, but yeah, I think it's good, and I think it's no surprise, is it? Female employees, those with commutes, people with other aspects of their lives to balance. It gives them a bit more flexibility, a bit more time back, and therefore makes them more productive. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Longitudinal study, always nice as well, over 2 years. So yeah, long may this flow of hybrid research continue. We always said, didn't they, that hybrid was a great experiment following the pandemic, and we're starting to see the results of this experiment now. And I think hybrid is going to be here to stay.

Al ElliottYeah, I agree. I agree. And again, we don't often quote Bezos and Amazon here in the same sentence as workplace culture, but they do have a great way of looking at decisions, what they call one-way doors and two-way doors. Hybrid, if you're a manager or a leader, hybrid's a two-way door. You can just start it and say, right, we're going to trial this for 6 weeks and see how it goes. And you can always roll it back as long as you speak to Leanne if you're going to do this, by the way, because Leanne will tell you exactly how to set this up so that it doesn't blow up in your face, but it isn't a one-way door. So it's definitely something which I think if you're not trying, you should try 2 days a week and see what difference it makes. Lee, what else have you seen this week?

Leanne ElliottWell, we are in week 3 of Pride Month now, and there has been a flow of so many wonderful organisationals and individuals spreading awareness about the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community. And one that I think is really important for business owners to know about is the significant financial challenges faced by the community. And this is an article I saw, and it framed it in a way that I'd never really fully considered before. So it mentioned that for many in the LGBTQ+ community, securing basic necessities like stable housing is really difficult because there's discrimination from landlords, and the threat of eviction is a real concern, especially for those forced from unsupportive family homes. Shockingly, actually, there's some research that shows that nearly 1 in 5 LGBTQ Brits have experienced homelessness at some point, which really does highlight the impact of that type of discrimination. And that's just one aspect. You know, the financial strain extends to many other aspects of life as well. Often people in community find themselves paying a premium to live in larger, more accepting cities where the cost of living can be substantially higher. It's estimated that members of the community will spend up to £200 a month on taxis because they don't feel safe walking at home. And of course, there's healthcare. This article featured, um, Thea Bardot, who identifies as trans non-binary. She uses she/they pronouns. Thea points out that trans people in particular are burdened with a specific set of additional overheads to ensure their outward image matches up with who they are side. And given the huge waiting list, particularly in the UK, um, Thea actually went private and acknowledged that she's privileged to be able to afford, um, something that, that a lot of trans or non-gender-conforming people can't. Um, and these are just a handful of financial challenges really. We've not really talked about the cost of having children. Again, the impact of discrimination in the workplace and how that can impact career progression and therefore salary increases. So I think this is perhaps overlooked for business leaders who do have members of the community in their workforce and and that'll be the vast, vast majority of businesses out there, especially as the, you know, the cost of living crisis continues. Financial well-being is a really important concern for the LGBTQ+ community, and it's a sad reality that living this safe and authentic life requires significant financial planning. This article went on to highlight the work of Kellyanne Wingate, who's a queer entrepreneur and helps others in the community with financial planning, um, because many people will be cut off financially from their families after coming out. So if you are looking for better ways to support your employees that are part of the community, financial well-being is a really, really great place to start and one that will actually benefit all employees. But if we take the time to individualize that support, as we talked about so many times on the podcast before, it's going to have a huge impact. If you want to hear more on that, you can go back to episode 55 with Professor Sir Kerry Cooper to hear more on financial well-being, how you can individualize that support and what it will mean for your people and your business. But a really interesting consideration, I thought, and one that I'd never really pieced together in that way before— the importance of financial well-being for the queer community.

Al ElliottThe key here is, as Leanne's always said, is don't go, right, this is what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna create a new thing for the community. Go and find someone who in your, in your organization who's part of the community and say, look, this is what I've heard, is there something we can do And don't forget, this doesn't necessarily have to affect your bottom line. You know, if there's just— there could be anything. It could just be like you could potentially just do a little bit of financial coaching with someone. If you're an entrepreneur and you've done well, you probably know how to make money and you probably know how to save money and invest money. So it could be something as simple as that. So it is definitely something we need to be thinking about. And I'm kind of pleased that we're all starting to think this way because it does sound like we're working through the challenges slowly, but We're working through them. That concludes the news roundup. So we're on to the next segment, which is our wonderful summer book club, the idea of Leanne's a couple of weeks ago, which I think she just sprung on me when we were actually just recording the thing and said, I didn't have a book. Anyway, so what we're going to do basically is Leanne's going to tell you about her choice of the book for this week. I'm going to tell you about mine. As you probably have guessed, I'm more business owner, entrepreneur sort of led. So mine's going to be slightly more that direction.

Leanne ElliottLeanne's more business psycho—

Al Elliottwell, she is a business psychologist, so it's gonna be more that direction. Hopefully we'll find something that's gonna appeal to everyone. Leah, what have you got?

Leanne ElliottI'm excited about this one. And again, when I, when I first show my book, I haven't started reading it, so you can start with me and we can read it together. Um, but I'm, I'm really looking forward to this one. It's called The Psychology of Secrets: My Adventures with Murders, Cults, and Influencers by Andrew Gold. What a title. It's here if you're watching on camera. Quite a sexy little, uh, book, isn't it?

Al ElliottPurple and yellow, that's cool.

Leanne ElliottIt's nice, isn't it?

Al ElliottOh, is that our colours?

Leanne ElliottPlus orange.

Al ElliottOkay, so what's in the book, Le?

Leanne ElliottWell, The Psychology of Secrets is actually Andrew's first book, but chances are you have heard of him. Andrew is an investigative journalist, a podcaster, a filmmaker. He's an award winner indeed, um, in all of those categories. I think you probably would have heard of the podcast Heretics. He is the host. He has created documentaries for BBC, HBO. Andrew is a pretty big deal. Um, yeah, I saw it for the title, for the COVID I put it in my basket immediately. Looking into it a bit more, the book dives into why we keep secrets and what really happens in our brains when we spill the beans. Apparently, we all carry around an average of 13 secrets, and half of the time these secrets involve something sketchy like a lie or money issues. Andrew Gold has talked to everyone on his podcast through his work as a journalist, people from cult leaders to everyday people, um, and he has figured out what secrets say about us. It does look like a really interesting read, I think, especially if you're into psychology or if you just love a good mystery. I think it's going to be good for you. So I'm going to start this as my homework for this week, and I'll report back.

Al ElliottI love it. I'm excited and also slightly nervous about you quizzing me on one of my 13 secrets. Um, it's interesting though, I did hear once someone say that behind every fortune is a lie. Um, and, um, that has rung true for almost every single successful person I've met. Now, that doesn't have to be a massive lie or a terrible lie, but I think that, um, there's always a little bending of the rules.

Leanne ElliottOh, what a great question to include in our founder stories.

Al ElliottNo, we can't ask that because no one was gonna No one's gonna say that. So my book recommendation is called Find Your Yellow Tux by Jesse Cole. I read this maybe about a year and a half ago, 2 years ago. I heard him on a podcast. Um, in fact, it might even be StoryBrand, which is part of the— this was before he joined HubSpot. It was part of the HubSpot network. Really, really good podcast, by the way. JJ Peterson, awesome. Um, and, um, it's called Find Your Yellow Tux. And basically what happened was this Jesse Cole, you've got the kind of the first part of the story where things weren't going well. He was on his backside, hadn't got any money. And then he ended up buying the Savannah Bananas, which is a baseball team somewhere. I'm guessing Savannah, but I don't even know what state that's in.

Leanne ElliottGeorgia.

Al ElliottIs it Georgia? Oh, cool. Okay. So he bought the Savannah Bananas, which was a, which was basically the local baseball team that wasn't doing very well. They'd get 10%, they'd fill 10% of the stands every single week. Um, and so he took it over and it's an absolutely phenomenal story. It's not only great for marketing advice, but what's the core thing behind all of this is working out what makes you different. Hence, he wears a yellow tux to every game. And that's what makes it different about Savannah Bananas. Now, of course, there is much more to it than that, but the core part of it is saying, what's your story? So instead of spending 2 days on a retreat coming up with, let's be honest, frankly bullshit values, then read this and you're gonna come up with your actual origin story. Now, what's interesting about your origin story is, number one, it sets you aside. It's an interesting thing to talk about because when you talk about Uh, recruitment, then you obviously— people want to work for a company that's got a good story. Everyone wants to work for those. But it's also going to be the core basis of your employer brand. Now, if you are interested in doing— in building a great employer brand, then we have got the amazing David Thompson from Employer Brand Made Easy Company, who's coming up in a couple of weeks' time. And it's going to be an entire masterclass on how to build an employer brand. And if you read this, you will be doing some prep work and you will be 80% of the way. Well, maybe Maybe not 80, but you'll be 40% of the way there if you can work out what your story is.

Leanne ElliottI must admit, Al, I've just been thinking about the name for the past couple of minutes. The Savannah Bananas. I actually, while you're talking, also Googled just in case I was wrong, but Savannah is indeed in Georgia. Look at me. Maybe it's a skill that I have. You could throw a city at me and I'll go, this is a state. Probably not. Don't try. Um, but the Savannah Bananas, I wanna, I wanna—

Al ElliottBirmingham.

Leanne ElliottEngland.

Al ElliottNo, Birmingham, America.

Leanne ElliottBirmingham. Oh, there's a few, isn't there? There's a few. Massachusetts.

Al ElliottAlabama. Carry on.

Leanne ElliottI bet there's a Birmingham in Massachusetts.

Al ElliottThere probably is. Anyway, sorry, you were talking about Birmingham and your uncanny ability to guess, to guess which state a city's in if it was randomly thrown at you. Carry on. You were talking about Savannah Bananas.

Leanne ElliottBananas indeed. No, it does. It sounds really interesting actually. And I love, I love things like that. We're hearing a lot of that now, aren't we, with the Euros happening about the little super Traditions of, of sports managers and owners and, and players. Um, so I love that he wore his yellow tux. It sounds like a good read. Is it, is it an easy read? Is it a funny read?

Al ElliottReally easy, really simple. Um, and, um, he's written quite a few books on it, around it, but it's just really good fun because he gets the, uh, he gets the baseball player, like these massive baseball players, men, um, he gets them to dance and they're like, they were never going to dance. So people walked out and said, I'm not doing that. And in the end, they obviously came back and with them. Basically, it's Glee but for baseball.

Leanne ElliottOh, sold! Should have led with that, Al.

Al ElliottSo there you have it. If you are reading those, then jump on LinkedIn, uh, tell us. Just search for Truth, Lies and Work. You'll find there's lots of bits and pieces that is going on there. Just tell us how you're getting on with it and whether you enjoy it, and tell us one of your secrets as well. Lee, we'll be back in a second after the very, very quick break with our world-famous weekly workplace surgery.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.

Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, Host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how the Encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.

Al ElliottOkay, welcome back. We are out in the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where we have 3 questions that I'm going to put to Leanne. Although, did you just say that we've— there's one for me, so maybe only 2 for you?

Leanne ElliottThere is, there is one for you this week.

Al ElliottLovely. So these are the questions. Leanne is a business psychologist, in case you haven't worked it out by now, and she is an expert in workplace culture, and so she will be answering these. Leanne, are you ready for question number 1?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottOkay. I recently started a new leadership role and will be adopting a team of 8 who are all tenured within the company. I'll be flying out and visiting the 3 locations where they work. What are some ideas to begin to build rapport? Ideas for when I get the team members together. Now, they have put here, not like happy hour or group activities, but more actual work activities, and hopefully something to make them feel it was a good use of time and productive.

Leanne ElliottUm, I think it's, it's great that you're asking the question to begin with. Good for you. One thing that worked really well for me, and I think works well for any manager, and I've heard a lot of people, um, recommend this when they first go into a new team, um, it is really just to get to know them, but get to know them in a really open and authentic way. And it depends on what the state of the business is. So I went and took over a contract that needed significant turnaround. Performance was not good. Um, so I went in, I knew there was a lot of frustration. I'd heard noises that people were generally pissed off. Um, so I did what was called a, um, shitposting session. And in the— it's a full-day event. In the morning, I was like, I don't, I don't know you, I don't know this contract. I know the business that we're in, but I don't know the challenges that you've faced here on this contract in this region, um, and specifically with, um, yeah, with the challenges you've had. So tell me. And I said, I'm gonna be brutal. Tell me the worst, the good, the bad, the ugly. Be brutal. There is, um, confidentiality. What you say here will not leave this room. Um, if you need to be um, a bit candid about other leaders in the business, please do so respectfully but openly, honestly. Um, and just moan, just moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan all morning. And it took a little time for people to come out of their shell. Um, and, and, you know, often you have to come with your own example as well. Um, so for example, I was like, well, if it was me as a coach here, I'd be really frustrated that I don't have a set base where my customers can meet me and I spend all my day running around. Um, and just offering things like that. Um, so that was a morning session. The afternoon session, you then switch focus to actually go, right, okay, now we know the problems and now we've got it all out of our system. We're all feeling a bit of relief. That weight is off our shoulder. What can we do about it? What can we— what solutions can we come up with together to try and make this better? What can I do as, as your manager, your senior manager, to help this, help make this better? What can your direct manager do? Um, Yeah. And it was everything from logistics to just getting better coffee and cups of tea, um, to reducing travel, to making sure that expenses were paid quicker because people out of pocket, um, having sec— there was so many different things that came out of this session, um, and people felt energized at the end of it. Caveat and a warning though, in that scenario there were at least 2 people who weren't getting on board with it, who who weren't enthused by it, who just wanted to stay in that moaning state. And that for me indicated that these 2 people were going to leave the business very shortly because they were not going to engage in that change. And for me, that was like, cool, because I need people who can change. I need people who are on board. And now that I've seen this behavior, I can start planning your replacements in advance. Um, so yeah, that's the only thing. If you are going through change, you like to leave people— if the business is in a good place, just sit down with them one-to-one and have a similar conversation. You know, what are your frustrations? What can I do to make your job easier? Um, and then it, you have to follow through on that. You can't leave any broken promises early on because that's just going to erode the trust. And so that would be the thing. And be really honest. If they give you 3 things that they want you to fix, say, right, I can fix one. One's not going to happen because of X, Y, and Z. I'll see what I can do about the other one. That's what I do. Get to know them, have a chat, go in with empathic concern. What can I do to make your job easier? Will go pretty far.

Al ElliottI love that. I love that. It goes along with the ideas that managers are there to support the people who are in their team. And secondly, just if you listen to someone, then even if you go— Leanne and I used to be in the Samaritans in the UK, which basically listening service. If you were in distress or despair, you'd ring up. And even if you're feeling suicidal, you could still ring up and we would just go, okay. And so how's your day been? Are you feeling suicidal? What do you think death's like? All that kind of stuff. We, we basically just listened to them, asked the question, listened to them. They did. People didn't ring up hoping us to talk them out of things. People didn't ring up hoping us to have answers. People rang up because they wanted a non-judgmental conversation with someone which they couldn't have with their friends. If you are a manager and you are able to sit there, shut up, listen, and at the end of it go, there's certain things I can't do anything about, but let me try and do something about this, you're probably 80% the way there, aren't you, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think it's, it's judging the situation as well, isn't it? You know, if people are under a lot of pressure, then their ability to come up with solutions might take a bit more time. It might need a group scenario. It might be that they need you to be more decisive for them initially. Um, it's having that emotional intelligence and that self-awareness as a leader that's going to go far, because it's these— it's that, that first 90 days in your management role is possibly the most important. Because if you can't earn— and I say earn because it's earned— the respect and trust of your people, there's almost no coming back from it. There's almost no coming back from it. Um, so yeah, I think you just have to sit down with openness and humility and not necessarily the solutions unless that's what they're looking for. Listen.

Al ElliottI love it. As, as always, another fantastic answer. And I think that if you are in that situation, let us know. Um, if you want, like, Leanne offers free half an hour if you qualify, free half an hour session, uh, for any, any listener. Um, so if you want to chat about something, then just check the show notes. You can find a way to book some time with her. Question number 2, Lee. This one's a little bit sad. Um, let me read it to you. I've spent the last 10 years working so hard at my job, and I'm really pleased with my progress. I've now got a decent salary and the job title I always wanted, but this has meant my social life has been non-existent. So last year, I really tried to up my socialising game, and I started making much more of an effort, but nothing seems to work. I think I'm a nice person, and I hope I'm interesting, but nobody seems to want to hang out with me.

Leanne ElliottHmm.

Al ElliottI'm also really worried about trying to get people at work to like me, because if they don't, then everyone at work will know I'm not a great person to hang out with. I'm at the point of thinking I should just abandon my social life and spend all my time working hard. I suppose I can make friends later in life, but of course I'm worried about burning out and I'm worried about starting to resent work, because if that happens and I can't enjoy my job anymore, then I feel I won't have anything to get up for in the morning.

Leanne ElliottHelp.

Al ElliottOh, I know, that's really sad, isn't it? You feel like you just want to go give this person a hug and just go, I'll be your friend, I'll be your friend.

Leanne ElliottI think this is quite a common situation for a lot of people to find themselves in, particularly people who are ambitious. What is it you always quote it, Al? The, um, like the biggest lie in the Bible is that Jesus at 30 had 12 close friends or something.

Al ElliottThe least believable thing about the Bible. I'm sorry for anyone who's Existing here as a big Bibleophile, but, um, the least believable thing about the Bible is that a man in his 30s had 12 close friends. Yes.

Leanne ElliottYeah, so I think it's, I think it's a very common thing actually for people who are focused on work, and understandably in that early career to try and get to that point of financial stability and the level they want to be at, um, things do fall away. Um, that's just the way life is. Um, it's good that you've you've recognized this imbalance and want to do something about it. Um, I think that the danger is— and I think this is where it will need a little bit of untangling— is that I understand that you're, you're feeling you're burning yourself out by trying to socialize so much to make these connections, but also it can work the other way around, that because you focus so much on work, you're burning out, and that causes us to want to disconnect socially. So it could even be that your lack of socialization has actually been a sign of burnout for a few years, and now you're trying to correct it. It's just that it's that added, um, added time pressure, I guess. That the reality is that relationships are the one thing that will, um, help us live happier and healthier and longer. It's been found in so many studies, longitudinal studies, them very Harvard, the famous, very famous Harvard one, for example, Um, relationships and support networks are really, really important. So you're right to prioritize this. Um, my thought would be, if this is putting pressure on you, take the pressure off a little bit. There's plenty of ways to gain fulfillment away from work. There's plenty of ways to build relationships and connections with people without actually defining them as close friendships. Close friendships are actually very rare. Um, I would look at something like an exercise called the Wheel life. Just Google it. Basically, kind of, you rank your, um, where your life is on various different points, whether it be, uh, money, relationships, work, health, fitness, um, those types of things. And maybe see what else might be a bit lacking. For example, let's say— or community, I think, is another one. So let's say it's, um, health. Maybe you'll go and join a gym, and maybe that, um, you know, that the chemical benefits you're going to get from exercising, all that adrenaline, the serotonin, all the All the good stuff, um, will give you more energy to go out and socialize. It might be that you'll meet people at the gym, or if you have other hobbies, um, particularly if you have very niche hobbies, there's lots of different online and in-person communities out there. Um, you know, from joining a choir to going to some kind of like Comic-Con for Doctor Who. Um, another thing as well in terms of community, volunteering is a really good way to make connections with people with like— that are like-minded, that share your values, And they can turn into friendships or indeed relationships. That's how I met Al volunteering. So, I would say take the pressure off that it has to be your social life, otherwise, you know, you're cutting yourself off from everything except for work. There's many different ways that you can expand your world and expand your opportunities to meet people and connect with people other than just trying to be the cool, funny one at work.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.

Leanne Elliottwho makes everyone laugh. Um, so I would say that it's something like the, um, the Wheel of Life exercise. There's another one in Dr. Audrey Tang's book, The Leader's Guide to Resilience, on pillars, which is a similar theme. Um, just have a little look at that. Again, also, you know, a coach can sometimes be good to run some of these ideas past. Um, or indeed, you know, call the Samaritans. A lot of people think the Samaritans is just if I'm feeling in You know, at that point of feeling suicidal, and it's not. A lot of people we'd have call up just for things like this, to run through thoughts and ideas and worry that they were isolating themselves, that their stress was getting too much. Sometimes you just need a sounding board, and Samaritans is a really good free option if you can't afford to engage a coach or a counsellor or something like that. But that would be my advice. It sounds like we just need to take some pressure off. We've got the right idea, but just need to take some pressure off and explore different ways of expanding our horizons, our environment, enriching our relationships.

Al ElliottTotally agree. Totally agree. I would say that because I'm— I was the same. I didn't really have any friends, close friends until maybe I was sort of like 19, 20. And I think you get to the point where, especially if you've got this work ethic of like, I'm gonna do really well at work, these are my priorities, this is what I'm getting up and these are my goals. If you approach socializing the same way, you're going to come across as a bit weird. So don't go out there and think, right, so my goal is at this event to get 5 numbers and go out for a coffee with 1 person. It doesn't work like that. The second, the second thing is, I think, is just almost like linked to the last answer, is just listen. If you get really good at listening to people, they will tell you, oh, you're the most interesting person in the world. And actually, you've not said anything. All you've done is listen to them.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.

Al ElliottIf you listen to people, they will like you as long as you don't, as long as you listen properly. Um, and, uh, there's lots of, there's lots of stuff out there about listening, but really the key is just have in your head 2 or 3 phrases that you can use when someone asks you about you, answer, and then just a key phrase like, sorry, did you say you were in, you were a doctor? At the end of your thing brings it back to them and they will go, yes, I am a doctor. I do this. I do that. Blah, blah, blah. Let them go on. And then that you will find that you, it will come naturally to you. You can't, you can't push this.

Leanne ElliottYeah. Thank you for, for that question. I think, I think by the sounds of it, you know that focusing on work alone isn't, isn't the answer. Um, but yeah, some, some ideas there for you. Al, are you ready for a question for you?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.

Leanne ElliottSo, this listener says, I've been learning about successful people like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Larry Ellison. They all seem to think and make decisions using logic and first principles. But on YouTube, business gurus talk a lot about things like manifestation, fake it until you make it, and personal development. What do you think about these different ways of becoming successful? What has been your experience?

Al ElliottThis is a bit of an interesting one because, um, my first business I started and I didn't have a clue what I was doing. Then I went bankrupt, and then I still didn't have a clue what I was doing, and I also had no money. So it was very much my second business. I kind of had to fake it a little bit till I made it. But you've got to be careful with that because you don't want to be faking it to the point where you're, you're hiring, you know, you're renting a car, a Rolls-Royce or a BMW to turn up at a client's appointment, because that's just going to come across as inauthentic. I think the disparity you're seeing potentially is that The there's some people who use the fake it till you make it manifestation, etc., etc. They're trying to change your mindset around success, whereas and that's a strategy. Whereas you talk about the Bezos and all the people who have made it, they talk very logically. They're talking about tactics and tactics of success. And so I think that you will start off with the strategy, and then as you as you get better, more and more successful, then you will end up concentrating on the tactics. So if you're starting from zero, then you need to make sure, first of all, you've got a good attitude towards money, because a lot of people will inadvertently use, uh, use phrases like money's the root of all evil or filthy rich, and they don't realize that they're actually telling themselves that those people who have money are filthy. Money's filthy. You be careful around that because you're gonna make sure that you, that you feel like you are worth someone giving you some money. And that's the first sort of mindset to get over. Then the next mindset to get over is that, or to adopt, is that you can do it. And that's where your manifestations might come in. Now, I did use manifestations and Tony Robbins and stuff when I was flat broke on my backside with no money. And yes, it did help, but I don't use them now. So I think just try it. I think really when we talk about manifestations, it's not you sitting in a chair cross-legged Um, you know, just saying, or like my joke at the beginning going, you're a tiger. It's nothing like that. It's just trying to slightly change your mindset and give you the confidence. If you were to start running, you wouldn't go and watch a YouTube video on how Usain Bolt runs and do the same thing as him. You would start at— you would, you would go and watch a YouTube video on how to start, how to run your first 1K, how to run your first 5K. You're not there. Don't compare yourself to this up here who's a billionaire. Compare yourself to someone who's doing 100 grand a year.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al Elliottwho's doing half a million a year, and then just continually move up the scale so that whoever you're looking at comparing yourself to, whoever you're thinking you're emulating, is probably 10 times what you're doing at the moment, not 100,000 times. Leanne, did I ramble a bit there?

Leanne ElliottNo, I think that was a really good point. I love that if you're learning to run, you wouldn't look to Usain Bolt for tips. Um, I think that's a really smart point. I think the thing is, you know, we can probably name these tech leaders on one hand, The ones that we can remember and we've heard of because they're sensationalized and talked about all the time, because it is rare to see these founders go from zero to multi-billion pound businesses. Um, so I think that's the point, isn't it? It's atypical. So looking at that as your blueprint for success is problematic. I would be more inclined to figure out who inspires you. Personally, I don't find Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg particularly inspiring. Um, but I find Adam Grant quite inspiring. I find John Amici pretty inspiring. Um, I find the people that we have on our podcast inspiring, different leaders, um, that, that come on. Um, because I think it's cool. Jeff just last week talking about, you know, paying all of his staff $210,000 a year. I find leaders like that inspiring. I think it's just that, that idea that, oh, if I want to be successful in business I need to aspire to be this person on a pedestal. And it's like, no, just, just— I think the best role models or the best people that inspire us are that we just take little bits from, little lessons on, and then we create— we use that to create our own approach and our own style and our own definition of success. And that's sustainable, um, in my eyes. But, um, good advice there, I think, Al.

Al ElliottAnd I think, well, lastly, just to throw that in there, if we are talking about Usain Bolt, then if, you know, Usain Bolt's diet I bet Usain Bolt doesn't eat much ice cream. And so what I'm trying to say is that if you want to be a Bezos, then you'll have all the good, but you're also going to have all the bad, potentially very costly divorce. Doesn't seem like a particularly happy or confident human being, has given up his entire life and his hairline to his business. So what we're talking about there is that you can't say, oh well, I want all of his money, but I also only want to work 2 or 3 days a week. You've gotta choose. It's a, you can't just pick and choose from the famous people of all the stuff you want. There's gonna be sacrifices and you've gotta ask yourself, are you willing to make that sacrifice to get that reward? And it's okay to say no. Leanne and I have both said, said all along, we're not willing to make the sacrifice. So therefore, there's no point thinking about the reward that if, that if we did that particular thing, we'd get. No, not interested. So that's a really grown-up way of looking at it. I'm sorry. Hopefully that was the answer you were looking for. For. If it wasn't, then let us know.

Leanne ElliottThen write to somebody else.

Al ElliottYes, I look forward to your letters, as I keep saying.

Leanne ElliottAwesome. I think that wraps up another, another This Week in Work Tuesday episode. I enjoyed that one, Al. It was good.

Al ElliottYeah, it was really good.

Leanne ElliottShe says. You tell me, mate. It was rubbish. I don't know.

Al ElliottYeah, I was like, it was okay. It was okay. No, it was really good. Uh, join us on Thursday. What have we got again Thursday? Who We've got someone special on Thursday, haven't we?

Leanne ElliottYes, we are talking to Dimple Dubalia, an incredible, incredible professional. Um, I, I can't even really summarize it in a way that's gonna, gonna make much sense, but basically humanitarian work, high-pressure, life-and-death stakes jobs. How do you deal with that? How do you come out the other side as an intact, functioning human? Well, Dimple will be here See you on Thursday to tell us how.

Al ElliottWe'll see you on Thursday.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Bye.

Al ElliottBye-bye.

Leanne ElliottTo hear more on financial belly—

Al ElliottI just need you to react to that and then I can just say something.

Leanne ElliottOh, say words?

Al ElliottYeah. If you think it's a big pile of rubbish, then tell us that as well, but maybe privately. Maybe, I don't know. No, tell us publicly. We'll tell you Wrong. Say that again. These are— don't know why I was gonna say that.