Episode 112 · 4 July 2024 · 43:51
What most businesses get WRONG about growth, with Adrian Lomas
Featuring Adrian Lomas
What most businesses get WRONG about growth, with Adrian Lomas
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Introducing Adrian Lomas: from Blue Leaf to EOS implementer
What is EOS? The Traction book and the six components
interview#eos#traction#book#six-components
Adrian's journey: from Blue Leaf's success to hitting rock bottom
interview#eos#journey#rock-bottom#blue-leaf
Right people, right seats: unpacking the core idea
interview#eos#people#right-person#right-seat
The six key components of EOS explained
interview#eos#six-components#model
Why issues never go away (and why that's okay)
interview#eos#issues#problem-solving
The 'Bob problem' — when loyalty meets the wrong seat
interview#eos#loyalty#wrong-seat#bob-problem
Having honest conversations about fit
interview#eos#honest-conversations#fit
Can you really get to 100% right person, right seat?
What it looks like when everything clicks
Show notes
What Most Businesses Get WRONG About Growth — with Adrian Lomas
Guest: Adrian Lomas — professional EOS Implementer, founder of Blue Leaf, and certified practitioner of Gino Wickman's Traction system.
Most businesses think growth is about working harder, hiring faster, and fixing problems as they appear. Adrian Lomas knows firsthand why that approach nearly cost him everything.
After running his marketing agency Blue Leaf for over a decade, Adrian hit rock bottom in 2013 — working longer hours than anyone on his team, carrying every problem himself, and watching the business he'd built start to unravel. The turnaround came when he discovered EOS (the Entrepreneurial Operating System): a framework built on six core components designed to get the right people in the right seats, solve issues systematically, and give leaders their lives back.
Adrian joins Al and Leanne to break down what EOS actually is, why "right person, right seat" is harder than it sounds, how to have honest conversations when someone isn't the right fit, and why the goal isn't eliminating issues — it's smoking them out every single week.
Top 3 Takeaways
Growth isn't about working harder — it's about working the system. Adrian's lowest point came when he was doing everything himself. The fix wasn't more hours; it was installing a structure that made accountability and clarity automatic.
Issues are a feature, not a bug. The goal isn't to eliminate every problem — that's impossible. The goal is to create a rhythm where issues get surfaced, solved, and checked weekly so they never fester into culture-killing problems.
"Right person, right seat" requires brutal honesty. Keeping someone in a seat because they're loyal or have been there forever creates a "cancerous" culture. The kindest thing you can do is have the honest conversation early — for them and for your business.
More From Adrian Lomas
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/adrianlomas
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team Can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome. This is our Thursday episode where we have interviews with experts, guests. Tuesdays, if you've not listened to one of those before, then have a little, have a little listen. We have the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. We have the news roundup, and we also have a surprise summer segment in the middle. Which was Truth or Lie last time we talked about the TV series Lie to Me. Quite interesting.
Leanne ElliottYes, but as you said, Al, today is all about the guests. Who have we got today?
Al ElliottOkay, before you accuse me of nepotism, I want to say yes, Adrian is a friend of mine, but no, I am not doing him a favour by having him on the pod. I have actually had people fall out with me because I refused to have them on as a guest. The reason I'm having Adrian on is because he's a professional EOS implementer. Don't worry, we'll get to what this is in just a second. And he's famous for helping to implement the Traction system, which is based on the great book by Gino Wickman. Whilst he is wildly successful today, I need to rewind about 15 years to tell the whole story. I first met Adrian back in about 2008, 2009, when he was running a highly successful marketing agency called Blue Leaf. At the time, I had a tiny marketing agency myself, who were just like 2 of us, and I spent a year or 2 cold emailing people that I admired and asking if I could see how they built their business. Adrian was one of the people I emailed, and he immediately invited me round to his offices to see what a real agency did. Not his words, mine. At the time, I was blown away by the number of people who worked for him and the household name brands who were his clients and all the work he was doing for them. I thought, I'm never going to get this big and successful. However, a few years later, things started getting tough for Adrian. So let's go and meet Adrian Lomas and hear his story of how he almost lost it all.
Adrian LomasMy name is Adrian Lomas. I am an EOS implementer. I was previously known for Blue Leaf, a successful e-commerce agency. And as for famous, well, I rode the Tour de France in 2013 as an amateur, not a pro. I beat Bradley Wiggins to the finish line without drugs. And I once chucked a bottle in the sea when I was 12 years old, and a girl found it in France. And we've been writing ever since then. And she came to my wedding in the last year and brought the initial letter that she found.
Al ElliottI'll be honest, I've asked that question probably 180 times now, and that might be one of my favorite, favorite answers. That is so cool. That is so cool. I want to go down—
Adrian LomasThere you go. You're blown away, aren't you?
Al ElliottI am. I didn't expect it. I want to go down that route, but we can't. We're gonna— we're here to talk about EOS and Traction. I'm going to assume that anyone listening doesn't know what EOS is and doesn't know who Gino Wickman and Traction. So let's just start at the very beginning. What is it? What's the book about? Why do we need to care about it?
Adrian LomasIt is a book. Well, it's a book called Traction. You mentioned the book. This was given to me many years ago, 10 years ago. It's written by Gino Wickman, an American guy who researched lots of business tools And started to figure out what works really well if you harmonize and connect more together to create a system. And that's what he created, the Entrepreneur's Operating System, called EOS, which helps teams to get better vision of where they want to go. Because if we can get the team getting really clear on their vision, 100% clear on that and the plan that they want to achieve, they're going to hopefully get much more traction in their business.
Al ElliottYeah.
Adrian LomasCertainly a lot more accountability. That's what they really, really want to be doing. And if we get vision and we get lots of traction, we're going to get healthier teams. Because if we get healthy leadership teams, you know, the rest of the team are going to follow all of that and just enjoy the journey. So EOS is all about vision, traction, healthy, helping leadership teams, what I call really breakthrough You know, it's really sorting the senior leadership team out.
Al ElliottYou say it was about 10 years ago that you first came across this book. 2013 was a tough year for you, if I remember.
Adrian LomasThank you for opening that chasm up.
Al ElliottYeah, well, apologies, but I am definitely opening the chasm up and I'm going to verbally interrogate it.
Adrian LomasGo for it.
Al ElliottThis seemed to be a turning point. This was the time when you found traction. This is the time when Blue Leaf, your agency, it wasn't going as well as you'd hoped it was. Can you set the scene? Tell us what was happening and how Traction helped.
Adrian LomasYes. So I started my agency in 1999, the last century, scarily. And it was a sort of general design marketing agency. It then became a niche websites. We then got into e-commerce and we became really quite famous, voted highly in digital rankings, winning national awards. We were working with Red Bull, which was amazing, F1 and stuff like that. We were helping brands like Laura Ashley, Tate. You know, we had some really good accounts, and I guess in some respect maybe a little bit of hubris set in. And but the year you referenced really was 2013, started sadly my mum passed away, which really sort of unsettled me. I then went through sort of a painful divorce, which wasn't nice, and then I was effectively told I was bankrupt and the business needed to close. We were insolvent. We'd overtraded. We'd just not managed it properly. I say we, but I will put it down to me, being frank. And so, yeah, it was a tough year, which culminated in me living under my desk for 3 months. Wow. Literally living in my office under my desk. And that's when somebody did give me this book. I had nothing else to do, so I read it and took action with it. You know, I just sort of— I like the simplicity of it, mainly because I'm quite a simple guy anyway. But the simplicity of the book and the system, just managed to piece it all together, and I thought, what the heck, let's give it a go. So we We restructured the business and it meant that I moved into a different seat if we talk about accountability and so on. And then we just traded out. We traded out. We got a loan, but we, we did then trade out. And using the EOS system, it really helped us to get to a much stronger place, to the point where, um, we sold the business, you know, to a— for a healthy sum. So it was good that we managed to go from Literally being under my desk, broke, using EOS as a system got us to selling the business successfully.
Al ElliottFrom what I've read, there are 6 parts to the EOS, and one of those is just specifically about people. There's a people analyzer tool I want to talk to you about in a second. But before we get into that, going back to 2013 when you were living under your desk, how much did your employees, did your team know about the situation in the business?
Adrian LomasI used to finish my day at work and I was the last one to finish, you know, and then I'd sort of lock up, if you like. And it was one morning that I was under my desk fast asleep and I heard the door open and I'm like, oh shit, it's not the cleaners. So I scurried off and it was a developer coming in for an early morning launch of the Laura Ashley website, and I thought, oh my God, this is not gonna be good. Is the founder MD guy in his pajamas in work? So, but he was a backend developer, he didn't really notice and he didn't figure it out. He just went and sat on his computer and I came out, offered him a coffee, and he was fine. But I guess the rest of the people didn't really know about it. I mean, there was my, my co-director You know, I shared with him, he knew the finances and knew the position, so me and him were very close anyway. It just didn't feel right to scare everybody from that point of view. So we were trying to figure it out, but once we started to use traction, then we realized we needed to have more openness around things because that's when we really have that senior leadership team. So they started to then know, we started to create that new plan.
Al ElliottYeah.
Adrian LomasAnd we then worked the plan and we still had issues. We all have issues. But, you know, it's about getting, as you mentioned then, people being one of those key components in the model, the 6 key components of traction— sorry, EOS. Most organizations have issues with people anyway, and many want to know what's going on in the business and many don't get to know about it. But when they do, If we can harmonize and get all of the energy going in the same direction rather than going off in different tangents and so on, that's when the magic happens. When everybody gets aligned with the same vision, you know, they know their purpose, they know what a difference they're making when they rock up each day because they're clear of the vision, they're clear of what they're aiming at. And that's why, you know, referencing the model, you know, we have a component for data. So it's making sure we've got the right data. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottWhat's truly incredible about this story is the amount of self-awareness Adrian has and how he's comfortable taking the blame. I mean, Al, you went bankrupt. I wasn't around when it happened, but from what you've said, it wasn't a pleasant experience.
Al ElliottNo, it wasn't. Um, I just— the real quick backstory, I saved really hard and I bought 2 houses, a nice car, and within 6 months It was all gone, all of it repossessed. Now, luckily, I only had part-time employees at the time who were students, so I didn't affect too many lives. But Adrian's story really kind of resonates.
Leanne ElliottOne of the core ideas in the book Traction is to have the right people in the right seats. And I wanted to unpack the psychology behind this. So the idea of getting the right people in the right seats relies on 3 core aspects of recruitment and psychological assessment. That's job analysis, predictive recruitment methods, and job crafting. So job analysis is where it all starts, and it's often the step that's skipped. So it involves a detailed examination of the role you need in your business— not the person, the role— crafting the responsibilities, required skills, and objectives. And this process ensures you understand precisely what the job entails and how it integrates into the larger organisational framework. Essentially, you start by crafting the seat. With a clear view of the right seat, we then focus on placing in the right person. So this is where predictive recruitment comes into play. So using tools like psychological assessments, detailed interviews, we're not just guessing but scientifically predicting who will excel in the role. This step ensures individuals align perfectly with the job's requirements and the company's culture. Finally, once the right person is in the right seat, job crafting serves as an adaptive strategy. Job crafting basically enables us to evolve a role over time, giving people different tasks and responsibilities that suit them and the business. This is why right person, right seat is an effective strategy, because it uses science to ensure that every person is fully equipped to contribute to the company's success while also growing personally and professionally. It really is a recruitment and retention Win-win.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's really important that you explain some of the basic principles behind there because it does sound a little bit glib to say right person, right seat, and everyone goes, yeah, well, of course it is. But this is, this is why it works. I asked Adrian to tell us more about this, but firstly, I wanted a little bit of context on how it fitted into the bigger EOS system. The one— this is the one that saved Adrian's company. You've told us what the EOS is. You've alluded to the fact there are 6 stages or 6 segments to it, But let's just assume, talk me through, I'm an idiot, tell me what is the EOS? What are the 6 pieces? How does it all fit together?
Adrian LomasSo EOS is a model which was founded by Gino, as I say, and it's 6 key components. Now they all sit around, when you said the fitting, how do they fit together? They fit to your business in the center of it. This is, it's about your journey. We have vision at the top. I'm not going to go into too much detail on it, but I can do for anybody because I'm passionate about it. But vision we have at the top, and with some tools we have to figure out around that. People is one of the key components because, you know, we find 82% of issues in businesses are related to people. We've got to make sure that we've got a good scorecard, not just a bunch of numbers which are looked at once a quarter or once a month. We're going to create a scorecard that really helps them to run it. If we get these 3 components working really well, then we should be creating issues in the business. You've already got issues, but most times people sort of hide them or don't discuss them. So we believe in a culture of smoking out issues, and that's how we do it with having the VTO, the Vision Traction Organizer, the data, the people. So on the left-hand side, we have that issues component. So we have some tools to help to solve issues. Yeah. And we do that on a weekly basis. And then finally, at the bottom, traction. You know, we talk there about rocks, which are the biggest things we need to be doing in the business over the next quarter, because this is what we do. We create a 90-day world for companies to run, run in, and we create those rocks. And then the other piece there is about meeting pulse. It's teaching teams to run a 10 out of 10 meeting every single week so solving those issues. The whole aim of that weekly meeting is to smoke out issues all the way through the business, not always solving them during the week, but making sure we're consolidating them into an issues list. And then we come together to IDS it, which is identify, discuss, and solve. So we are just going through issues in priority order, priority being Biggest issue in our business right now, that's what we discuss. Because most times, I don't know about you, been in so many meetings where let's start talking about the Christmas party and the website and, you know, the cats and all sorts of stuff. And you're sort of like, what? This is not relevant. We've got to— we're coming together as a leadership team. We've got to solve— talk about the biggest things in our business right now. So that's all we do. No reporting on anything. Biggest issues first, and we IDS it— identify, discuss, solve. This is about running an operating system purely in a business. And if you run it purely in your business and you put all of your data and all your information on the operating system, and every one of your team operates on the operating system, then that's when you all get harmonized. That's when you all start going in the same direction. That's why we take our aim is to take people from where they are. We ask them questions. For instance, how how accountable are people in your team right now? And we get scores. They're often at twenty, thirty percent. I say, how are your meetings internally? Out of ten, what's the score? And many are like. 3, long-winded, we don't really get an agenda and we don't really know what we're doing when we come out of it, maybe 2. And then, you know, I ask questions like, how aligned are you to the plan? Many of us said, what plan? So if there's not a plan and we're having crap meetings and there's lack of accountability, no wonder we're down at 10s and 20s. We've got to get everybody up to 80% on each one of those 6 key components for you to be running really purely, really aligned in your business on one operating system.
Al ElliottI think a lot of businesses, they go, well, what we're going to do is work really hard to get rid of all our issues so we don't have any. And I think what you're suggesting is that no matter what happens, you're going to have problems or issues. So just make, make them forefront. Have I understood that right?
Adrian LomasI've never found a team yet that doesn't have issues each week to solve. It's, it's, there's always issues in the business, and but this is why we've got to have that, I said, like a culture of smoking out issues. We've got to be transparent about saying, here's a list, let's just put any issues on it. And it could be anything. It could be such and such is not performing too well, this project is, is in danger, we're, we're, we're running out of cash, or it could be We're pitching for this project, and if we win it, how the hell are we going to deliver it? Because that's an issue, right? So it could be positive stuff, it could be— it's just issues that we have in our business. And what it means is we've got to smoke them out. So when we're having our Level 10 meeting, for instance, what normally happens when people come together in a meeting is, right, we all sit down. Website, how are we doing? Right, let me tell you, I had a chat with Katie about it, and she's done some new designs. It's going to be After our holidays, and already we've lost, you know, 10, 20 seconds, right? And that goes on, doesn't it? And then somebody like, oh, why don't we— why don't you try Dave? He could substitute for her. And like, we're talking about something that ain't the biggest thing in our business. So no discussion on stuff until we've smoked out what the biggest issues in the business are, and we list them. So for instance, I mentioned about rocks. These are the biggest things we must do in our business over the next 90 days. And if they're the biggest things, then we've got to sort of check in. And so all we do is say, if the rock is launch our new website by June 30th, then it goes up on there. And rather than the person coming in, right, what's the update on the website? That's where the time disappears. It's like we ask, website on track for June 30th? Is it on track or off track? It's on track. Great. We don't need to discuss it. You're accountable. You own it. Why discuss it? And so we go through each one and we check. And if somebody says it's off track, okay, is it an issue? And then they may think and say, no, I know what I've got to do.
Al ElliottCool. Next one.
Adrian LomasAnd that's all we're doing. We're just checking in, checking in, and we're just smoking out issues. And if we smoke out issues, they go on the issues list. If you go on the issues list, we then IDS it in priority order of biggest first. That's why it's a key component in the EOS model, because it's a tool— 2 tools, the list and the IDS— and it's 2 tools to help businesses weekly solve. Like, I, when I ran Blueleaf, We kept track of all of the issues that we solved. So we'd have the issues to solve, we'd have our to-do list, then we'd have our done, because we're looking for 90% of those to be done every week. And then once it's done, it then went on to this list, and we would have hundreds. And we'd look back at the end of the year, we'd look back, there's easily hundreds that we look at and say, look what we have solved as a leadership team In priority order. So yes, it is a key component of the EOS model.
Leanne ElliottI love this idea of embracing issues rather than trying to eliminate them. A lot of the consultancy work that I do with companies just like Adrian's end up unearthing more issues than they had to start with. But that's a good thing. Issues that go unaddressed lead to burnout and surprise resignations, which is very expensive to solve and very disruptive. So, by framing these jobs to be done, it means you actually look forward to discovering issues as you have a framework to solve them. But of course, someone has to be accountable for fixing these issues. Well, we join the interview where Al is grilling Adrian on accountability and really gets to the bottom of what it means to have the wrong person in the right seat.
Adrian LomasLet's take this finance seat here and we put this person into it because, you know, Bob has been doing finance for 22 years. You know what I mean? He started when when I was a kid, and so Bob's there sat there doing it. Now we like Bob. He's a good guy. He'd do anything for you. The problem is is that the business is now doing like two million, and Bob's bit out of his depth. You know, so it's a sort of right person. But he's in the wrong seat. You know, he's the right person because he meets our culture and values and, you know, we like him. He's a good guy, but he's in the wrong seat. What we need now is somebody that's on zero, you know, and can do our accounts for us like that and give us our numbers and can file, you know, things for a £2 million company as opposed to a, you know, £100 grand company. So it's the right person, but in the wrong seat. We've got to do something about that, because that is holding you back, whether it's in ops, whether it's in marketing or sales or whatever it is. A right person in the wrong seat is a problem. The other thing that we have is that we sometimes come across the person that is just really good at the job, you know, just nailing it. But we hate them. We just can't get on with them. You know the ones, you just like, you're working with somebody and you think, why are they doing— why? I just don't like this person and I can't communicate with them, man. It's just, you just get that bad vibe. But in so many times, somebody that's good at the job, they get promoted and then they take on somebody else like them.
Al ElliottYeah.
Adrian LomasAnd now you've got a team of people that are just like odd. They're just like, they don't match up, they don't match my values. It's my company, but it just doesn't feel right. So that's when you've got wrong person in the right seat. And again, you've got to do something about it, because if you've got— you want this job doing, but you've got the wrong person in it, they're creating a subculture.
Al ElliottYeah.
Adrian LomasWhich, you know, it's quite cancerous in many ways. It's going to create this culture in its own right which can override your culture. So we've got to define it very, very clearly using our values. And so we've all heard of it, we've all got our values written up on the wall, and, you know, I've seen it in many companies that have gone bust about honesty and professionalism, yet they're scamming you and all that sort of stuff. So that's no good. We need— Yeah. Those values that we live by and we hire by, and then we use them. You mentioned earlier on, Al, about the People Analyzer. That's where we use it. So we get our values right, and then we get the list of our people, and then we then score them. And we can say, you know, is Bob— does he meet our values? Yes, yes, yes, yes, he does. He's great. But then we can ask the question, does he get it? Well, he sort of gets it, but it's a bit outside his zone now. Does he want it? He likes doing the gardening now. He's just coming in for a paycheck. And does he have the capacity? He used to have the capacity. He's just not got it now. So, so again, would you want somebody in your company that might or might not get it? Does he want it? Not really. Capacity? Not really. So again, that's another issue to solve. We're going to figure out whether people are right for our team based on our values, right for our team based on our GWC— gets it, wants it, capacity. And if not, it's an issue to solve. And we use that People Analyzer, by the way, to recruit. Because if we know that, you know, say Rita— Rita is really, really good and tick, tick, tick, tick, you know, and she gets it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Adrian Lomaswants it and has got the capacity, that's great, that's a really good person. And then we've got a Sue who just doesn't really match our values. Would we recruit somebody like Sue, no matter what she does in the business? Chances are it's going to be a no. So therefore, we set the bar as to what we would accept based on our values, based upon GWC, and that's what we use for recruiting.
Al ElliottYeah.
Adrian LomasWe use that for every person that comes through the door. We have a People Analyzer, and we're scoring them on our own People Analyzer linked to values in GWC.
Al ElliottInteresting. So, from what you've said, we talk about right person, right seat. Then we have 4 scenarios where we've got right person, right seat, right person, wrong seat, wrong person, right seat, and wrong person, wrong seat. So when we find someone who's in the wrong, who's the wrong person, wrong seat, is this an almost certain dismissal? We're just going to manage them out?
Adrian LomasI would be honest with Bob, and I would say, Bob, these are our values, and you are matching those well, but GWC gets it once capacity. This is where I see some issues. And so why don't we work together over the next month where you can demonstrate to me that You wanted, and you've got the capacity, or you, or you mismatch our values, or whatever it is. It's really putting a spotlight on where they are struggling and give them a chance and really try and get them up based upon the set of rules that you're playing to. Now, on some occasions that works, and on some occasions it doesn't work. So we, we go in really for the 2-strike rule in some regards and say, okay, it's working great, let's support you. Let's do this value over the next month or 2 months. Or if it's not working, we say it's not quite working, let's give it another go. Let's try this and this and this to see if we can get them. If that doesn't work, then a couple things. One is they know their spotlight is on them and they know why. And most occasions they start looking, so they may solve the issue for you because they know that their cards are numbered. If it isn't, now you've got some serious information backing up that can take you forwards to PIPs or disciplinaries or, you know, performance reviews. But we've got to address all of those seats, by the way. I categorically believe unless you've got all right people, right seats, because that's what we're looking for when I'm teaching EOS and facilitating the sessions and the teams I work with. I'm looking to identify the right seats, the right roles, and then the right people. And then the next question is, do we have all the right people in the right seats? Because if not, you're settling. We've got to solve that.
Al ElliottYou've said that the aim is 100% right seat, right person. But realistically, from all the clients you work for, I'm thinking back to you, Blueleaf. Is it always 100%? Can you succeed at like 85%?
Adrian LomasYes, you can. So I mentioned earlier that with teams that we work with and find and ask them questions, you know, 20% on this, 30% on that, we would love to get them to 100%, but 80% is the mark that we're trying to get people to. If a team is running at 80% clarity with their vision and their people and the data and their great shoes and And process and traction, then you've got a really nice 80% wheel, if you like, which really rolls really well. It's all on EOS and all the people are pretty much harmonized, but you will still have issues. And sometimes you will have some people that are wrong people or right seats or whatever. You're still going to have issues because, look, shit happens, right? So something happens along the way. where something changes in a person, or— and that's one of the things we can find is that, you know, a company might, might be chittering along, and then it gets its place. It's like hitting that ceiling. We've all done it where we're just moving along and we start off on a business and we're going, going, and then we hit the ceiling and we can't break out. Something stops us from busting out, and we've got to figure that out. Is it the company? Is it the team? Is it an individual? Something's stopping us. And so normally, once we've figured out what's restricting us, we make some changes and then it goes again and off we go. Now, that's the same with people, you know, they can be star performers, but then something changes, you know. Is it the business or is it them? You know, it could be the focus, life-changing stuff, you know, we, we've all seen it. So no, it's It's never going to be 100% and always 100%. It's always going to be up and down. And this is why we have the issues track, because you're always going to have issues. You've just got to solve them one at a time every week.
Leanne ElliottAfter this short break, we'll find out what it looks like when you finally get the right person in the right seat. See you in a sec. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one Marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business.
Adrian LomasSeamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Adrian LomasUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such an interesting It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Adrian LomasIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Adrian LomasI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Adrian LomasDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottCome back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottLet's go back to the interview with Adrian Lomas, where Al is asking what it looks like when you get the right person in the right seat.
Al ElliottSo thinking back to some of the clients you've worked with, what does it look like when they get everything in, in order and they finally get traction? What are the, what are the owners seeing? What are the teams seeing?
Adrian LomasOne is they have meetings and they're coming out like focused and structured. It's like, um, they know what they're doing. They, they, they're seeing the numbers improve. They're, they're seeing team spirits much better, you know, just a, a much healthier environment. Wherever you walk in a company, whether it's between, you know, 10 people or 200 people, you see people being accountable things leading towards the vision that we set as a team. And so you could say it's, wow, it's amazing. It's just like that, that sort of dream of it being like that. Now, I don't want to get too OTT on it, but, you know, it is really, really, really nice when you've got a really solid team all pulling in the same direction. Again, a thing we reference is, you You see when a team is just performing well in a sports environment. It's just like it's brilliant. They've done their research, they've done their homework, they've done their preparation. They know what they're going to do, and it just pings. And most people just enjoy seeing people that are good at what they do. You know, but as we know, a team is not is not based upon one or two individuals. It's down to the team. You know, a really finely tuned team can outperform. Perform a bunch of individuals way better. So, so yeah, it harmonizes that energy, gets it all going in the same direction, and it's so much better. It really is. Accountability is such an important thing, you know, for business leaders and owners. You know, Al, you mentioned, you know, nearly going bust. I've done it. There's countless others that have done it and sadly gone bust. It's a bloody lonely place and a tough place You know, and how much do you open up to people for fear of them sort of viewing you differently or criticizing or alienating or whatever and just thinking you're crap? So, so many don't do it. So, so I think if we have that leadership team that are seeing all the same numbers, the score sheets, they've seen a weekly performance with the scorecard that we look at. They're all part of it, you know, and that's when it just feels so much better. And truth be told, that's what happened with me. I went, as I said earlier, from under my desk using the system. It got me to the point where, quite frankly, we had 6 companies knocking on our door wanting to buy us, which was bizarre. So it is very, very important important in any business to figure out what is needed and where those people fit. And that's why some relationships and partnerships and companies fail, because you've got that mismatching of the dynamics of the people. It quite frankly is just— well, let's put it simple— wrong people in the right seat or wrong seat, whatever it is. It just boils down to that, whether they're the founder or level of the cleaner. It's accountability at the top, but it's so important to get that right. And if some people need to— and, you know, I know one team, um, not too long ago where, you know, somebody from that visionary role had to move on from it because they felt, I've done my bit, the company doesn't need that now, it needs that integrator and that stability. And they've moved on. They want to go and find that new energy somewhere else. So, so much of it comes around to accountability and the accountability chart. That's where we can find a lot of the problems or issues.
Leanne ElliottThere's always a bit of a collective groan when a leader comes in one day and announces a change. I know Al gets really excited when he reads a book on marketing, and then the next day he's writing up processes and generally turning our business on its head, which is fine as we're only a small business, small but it's not always the case. team, but if we had 100 people working for us, that would be really, really disruptive. Adrian has a much better way of implementing a new idea rather than just reading a book on Friday and changing everything on Monday.
Adrian LomasI like going into a senior leadership team where a visionary has heard of EOS and he goes in the next Monday and he says, team, we've got to, we've got to do this. So, and the team are like, oh my God, it's another one of those 20 ideas, and it's another book. And but then the person organizes a session with me, and I go in there, and you've got sort of ops, finance, like, what's all this about? Okay. And then, and the visionary sort of guy, I've read this, I've heard it, it's brilliant, we've got to do it. And so I then do what's called a 90-minute session. It's a 90-minute session where I donate my time to any senior leadership team, and I just share with them the EOS model, the 6 key components. I talk them through the journey, ask them a few questions about their business just to see where they're at on that scale between 0 and 100. And then at the end of it, I talk about the process of working with me or self-implementing it, which you can do. You can buy the book and you can do it yourself, you know. And by the way, if you want a copy of the book, Just message me, I'll send it to you. And, you know, I love it at the end of that session where I've never come across a team where the arms aren't unfolding. They're like, oh my God, this is really good. I had one yesterday and they were like, 90 minutes? We don't do 90 minutes. How are we going to stay focused for 90 minutes? That's a lot. And so went through it and they're like, Oh my God, that was fantastic. So I really like that. And then it then goes on typically, if they work with me, as I say, it's not, it's just a choice. You know, we never have a contract. It's just we work as needed. But it's generally a sort of a 2-year journey on average. That's where we tend to see it. But then it then goes into a focus day and they're all ready because they've done the 90. They're all ready for it. They've ready to go on that journey, and that's why we score those sessions. I love getting 9s and 10s in sessions after 7 or 8 hours working together. I mean, that's hard work, working together 7 or 8 hours in a lockdown room, you know, and they're still getting 9s and 10s, shows that they're engaged and just taking it. And so there's not one moment, Al, it's just Seeing them figure this system out and how they can operate it to harness their energy. And here's the thing, get what they want from their business, because most times they don't. So if— I love it when they get what they want from their business, whatever that is, using the EOS system.
Leanne ElliottChange is hard, but sometimes we need to do the hard things to get it right. Right. What is it you say, Al? Short-term busy for long-term lazy?
Al ElliottExactly. Exactly. It's not my quote, of course, but the idea is that you do the hard things now so that your life is easier in the future. But of course, you're always going to have problems. As Tony Robbins says, the more successful you are, the better quality problem you have. I have to admit, I'd never come across EOS before, but after spending an hour with Adrian, I'm actually a believer. I can see how it would help a company get a sense of structure. If you want a free copy of Traction, then just get in touch with Adrian. Here's how.
Adrian LomasJust try adrianlomas.com or the EOS website worldwide/adrianlomas. You know, you will find me on there. And of course, on LinkedIn, Adrian Lomas, you'll find me on there. So any one of those, it's the same guy. I'll respond to all of them the same way. You're right. If you want that book, I'll send you the book, no obligation. You read it. It's Somebody gave it to me, and I want to pass that down to others. And if people want to chat about it, that's fine. Help first is one of our values. We always believe in that, help first. And if you want me to, you know, help you and your team, then that's when I come in, and I will help, you know, leadership teams that want to bust that ceiling and get what they want.
Al ElliottSo if anyone's implementing EOS and they are talking about this right right person, right seat, but you're struggling with the job analysis side of it, which Leanne talked about before, then Leanne, I'm pretty sure you can help.
Leanne ElliottYep, absolutely. If you head over to oblong.com, you'll see our culture roadmap, which kind of breaks down recruitment. Job analysis is the first step of that, and we always leave a link in the show notes where you can book in a free 30-minute consultation.
Al ElliottJust to be specific though, um, EOS is an entire like operating system for your business. It covers every single aspect. What we do here at Oblong is just around the people, and a lot of that is covered. So if you're happy with what EOS is doing with around the people side of it, you probably don't need us. If you just want to find a bit more and you want to get some experts in, we're definitely the people you want to be calling.
Leanne ElliottTalking about people you want in your phone book, next week's guest, we have an amazing woman called Kate Illuzio who has dedicated her life to helping people in what she calls the messy middle. She spent 20 years at the very top of the finance industry before deciding she wanted to start her own business, and she is brutally, brutally honest about the ups and downs of starting a worldwide network of professionals.
Al ElliottYeah, and, and you'll know by now that if you listen to any of our interviews, we always ask the, the guest, what are you famous for? She said, I was famous for— and I'm just quoting— I won the Jell-O Wrestling Championship 2 years running in college. Um, I'm pretty sure that when she told me that, I blushed because I didn't really quite know what to say to that. So if you want to hear my embarrassment, then tune in next week and you'll hear more from Kate Luzio and the Messy Middle. And basically anything to do with the middle management, she's got it nailed.
Leanne ElliottJell-O, is that just jelly?
Al ElliottYeah, I think it's a trade name. I think jelly is jelly. It's like, like a Jell-O is Like a Dyson. Yes, exactly, like a Dyson or a Hoover or a vacuum cleaner. Yeah, so sorry, Adrian, if we're talking about EOS and then we're just hijacking at the end with a bit of talk about Jell-O. But yeah, jelly is Jell-O, but also in America jelly is jam, but in the UK jam is jam and jelly is jelly.
Leanne ElliottAnd what is the difference between jam and marmalade?
Al ElliottUm, well, spelling is the main difference, right? Yes. So we'll see, we'll see.
Leanne ElliottSpelling and syllables.
Al ElliottSo we will see you on Tuesday at Another edition of the Tuesday edition. I've told you what it is, I'm not going to do it again. But if you haven't subscribed by now, then click subscribe because it really does help us. As I think we mentioned on Tuesday, we were number 7 in the charts on Spotify, and that's down to people like you who both rate the podcast, listen to the podcast, and subscribe.
Leanne ElliottI mean, I did do a firm bit of, um, campaigning when I was in Montenegro over the weekend, so maybe, maybe that was it. I didn't because it was a UK charts anyways, it wouldn't matter. Anyway, I'm gonna go and Google the difference between jam and marmalade, and we will see you next Tuesday for another edition of This Week in Work. I'll say goodbye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Adrian LomasBye.
Leanne ElliottOne of the cool— I And adapt to new roles to meet new changes. I didn't— evolving business needs, technical— sorry.
Al ElliottHave you had—
Leanne ElliottIt's my first day back from holiday.
Al ElliottI was gonna say, have you had a drink at lunch or something?
Leanne ElliottChange is hard, much like some cheeses.
Al ElliottCheddar, one of the hardest of them all. Maybe Parmesan is a—
Leanne ElliottParmesan is quite, yeah.
Al ElliottIt's, it's structurally sound.
Adrian LomasYeah.
Al ElliottNow, if you're a fan of Tony Robbins, then you'll have probably heard him say—
Leanne ElliottCough it up, Al.
Al ElliottMy name's Tony.