Episode 121 · 13 August 2024 · 47:26
Crowd Psychology, Gen Alpha Slang and The Peter Principle: This Week in Work, 13th August 2024
Crowd Psychology, Gen Alpha Slang and The Peter Principle: This Week in Work, 13th August 2024
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News Round-Up: Gen Alpha Slang Decoded
news roundup#news#gen-alpha#slang#workplace
News Round-Up: Bad Bosses and How to Spot Them in an Interview
news roundup#news#bad-bosses#interview#red-flags
News Round-Up: Crowd Psychology at the Olympics
news roundup#news#crowd-psychology#olympics#workplace
Workplace Time Capsule: The Peter Principle (1974)
news roundup#workplace-time-capsule#peter-principle#1974#management
Workplace Surgery: 'Am I stealing from my boss?'
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery#advice#stealing#ethics
Workplace Surgery: Choosing who to make redundant
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery#redundancy#layoffs#decision-making
Workplace Surgery: 'Do I lie about being unemployed?'
workplace surgery#workplace-surgery#unemployment#lying#job-search
Show notes
Crowd Psychology, Gen Alpha Slang & The Peter Principle: This Week in Work
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) decode the baffling world of Gen Alpha slang, break down the psychology of crowd noise at the Olympics, and dig into the BBC archives for a 1974 lesson on the Peter Principle. Plus, in the Weekly Workplace Surgery: is finishing your work in half the time stealing from your boss?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Gen Alpha are coming (and we have no idea what they're saying) Following last week's Gen Z slang embarrassment, Al and Leanne tackle the next generation's vocabulary. From skibidi toilet (a viral YouTube series about an army of singing heads in toilets) to what the sigma (a lone wolf, popular or dishevelled figure), gyat (a shortened "god damn" — usually about a posterior), and mewing (a facial exercise turned non-verbal "shut up" gesture). Grazia magazine's guide helps, but the hosts remain gloriously confused.
2. The cost of bad bosses Al shares research from Fast Company on the seven types of toxic managers to avoid — and the stats are grim. Nearly half of employees have quit a job specifically to get away from a manager. The discussion lands on laissez-faire leadership: the hands-off style that sounds appealing but is often just neglect in disguise. Tracy Bauer's work gets a mention, and Al gets distracted by the phrase "toxic member."
3. Crowd psychology at the Olympics Inspired by the Paris games, Leanne explores how crowd noise actually affects athlete performance. The research is fascinating: a loud, jeering crowd can genuinely disrupt performance in precision sports like archery — but in strength and endurance events, a raucous home crowd can boost performance through physiological arousal. The "home advantage" is real, and it's measurable.
🕰️ Workplace Time Capsule: The Peter Principle (1974)
Back to the BBC archives for a 1974 broadcast featuring Dr. Laurence J. Peter himself. His principle: "In a hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence."
The classic example: a brilliant, precise, responsible worker gets promoted to foreman — and immediately fails because the skills that made them great at the job aren't the skills needed to manage people. Al and Leanne discuss what this means for modern promotion decisions, and why "promote your best individual contributor" is still a trap we fall into 50 years later.
💬 Weekly Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
"I'm a software engineer and my girlfriend thinks I'm stealing from my boss." — He works 100% remotely, completes 40 hours of work in 20-25 hours, and wonders if he's doing something wrong. Leanne's verdict: you're not stealing, you're being efficient. (And Reddit's advice? Change the girlfriend, not the job.)
"I have to make a redundancy. One person is great to be around but less effective; the other is highly productive but an asshole." — Leanne digs into whether the redundancy is truly essential, the cost of losing your culture carrier, and why "the asshole" might be the one to keep — or not.
"Do I lie about being unemployed? I worked in fast food after being let go, and now I have an interview in my field." — The gap in the CV, the fast food stint, and how to frame it. Leanne brings out a Mark Twain quote and a reframe that turns shame into a story of resilience.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. audio destination for business professionals. My name's Leanne. I'm an occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name's Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to do something.
Al ElliottBeen a while, hasn't it? This week on the show, we've got our weekly news roundup, which includes a look into the incredible Paris 2024 Olympics, and our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where we answer your questions about work and working life.
Leanne ElliottWe will also be going back into the archives in our workplace time capsule. you all, if you listened last week. Thank you. I tried a few, but that was my favorite. I didn't consult you because I couldn't be arsed. It's just conversations take time, and I don't think it's that important. Um, but if it is, we'll, we'll chat about it later.
Al ElliottSo what is the— what is the Workplace Time Capsule?
Leanne ElliottSo we will basically be sharing lessons and reflections from the world of work in the 1960s, '70s, and '80s, diving back into some archive footage I found on the You Truth Tube this week will be taking you back to the BBC, um, in the 1970s and The Peter Principle.
Al ElliottI have heard of The Peter Principle, but before we do that, it's your favourite time of the week.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it is time for the news roundup. Al, cue the jingle.
Al ElliottSo what have you got, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottGen Alpha are coming, Al.
Al ElliottGen Alpha are coming.
Leanne ElliottGen Alpha are coming. So you remember last week when we, um, embarrassed ourselves by incorrectly guessing the meanings of Gen Z slang?
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottStan did the likes.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yep, we got it wrong. No cap.
Leanne ElliottNo cap. Well, it turns out we have a big problem, Al.
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottGen Alpha are coming.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo if you thought, um, that maybe after listening last week you're finally catching up with Gen Z TikTok trends, brace yourself. There is a new generation on the rise and they've got a whole new language that's leaving everyone, even the Gen Z, scratching their heads. So yes, Gen Alpha, those born between 2010 and 2024, um, who've introduced a fresh let's be honest, confusing set of slang that has gone viral. So yeah, how did this all come about? So it started with a teacher from Hertfordshire called Kit Brown who posted a TikTok video detailing the language spoken by his 10-year-old pupils. The video has racked up over 1.6 million views, with people flocking to the comments in just pure confusion. Um, so yeah, let's take a listen. I've got the original TikTok, Al.
Al ElliottThis is slang that the children I teach use that I just don't understand. Number 1 is skibidi toilet. What on earth is a skibidi toilet and why can I not go 30 seconds without saying it?
Leanne ElliottNumber 2 on the list is what the sigma.
Al ElliottNow I've asked around, but no one can tell me what what the sigma means. This list would not be complete without number 3, which is of course skibidi Ohio rizz.
Leanne ElliottObviously a different variation of skibidi toilet.
Al ElliottI know what rizz is, but skibidi Ohio rizz? Just went way over my head. And last but not least is mewing. And what on earth is this?
Leanne ElliottI think I speak for everybody over the age of 18 when I say, what?
Al ElliottYeah, well, as someone who's approaching 50, I, I say, what the actual fuck are we talk— are you talking about there? I understood about 3% of those words.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah. I mean, thankfully, um, a magazine in the UK called Grazia, fashion lifestyle kind of magazine, um, has come to the rescue, um, to try and translate some of this for us. Um, so first up that we heard there, skibidi.
Al ElliottSkibidi biddy biddy.
Leanne ElliottSkibidi. It is satisfying to say.
Al ElliottIt is. Do you remember Scatman John?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI think he started with skibidi boo wee gloo lee boo wee boo wee skatman. Anyway, might cut that bit out. Carry on, Le.
Leanne ElliottSkibidi. So the term comes from a viral YouTube series called Skibidi Toilet, which, get this, is about an animated— it's about animated heads Living in toilets.
Al ElliottHeadteachers or just actual heads?
Leanne ElliottJust heads. Um, yeah, apparently it's a huge hit with the kids under 13 and quickly became a meme sensation. Not in my circle, it didn't. Um, I did actually see this on my nephew's TikTok though, and I thought it was really weird and didn't understand it. And I thought, I'm not going to bring it up in case, like, it's something I wasn't meant to see. Hi, Joe, if you're listening. Now I understand it's just, it's just a TikTok channel. Um, but what does it mean? Well, that's the thing, it doesn't actually have a fixed meaning. It doesn't really mean anything. It could mean cool, it could mean bad. It all depends on the context. How was your weekend? Weekend? It was skibidi. Uh, did you miss your bus? Oh, that's skibidi. What do you think of this podcast? Skibidi, I guess. Um, so yeah, there you go. Skibidi. What the sigma we heard there. Um, now you probably know sigma as the 18th letter of the Greek alphabet.
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah, of course.
Leanne ElliottBut in internet slang, it's taken on a whole new meaning. It can describe someone as a lone wolf, popular or dominant, basically the cool kid in school. Um, but the phrase what the sigma is just another way of saying what the hell, what the heck. Um, which I think is what we're all thinking about now.
Al ElliottCan I just ask you, when you talk about the Six Sigma, you know, in the whole like management theory and you've got Six Sigma, then a sigma is a gap between the norm, is it not? So the Six Sigma would be the gap from the norm. It would be the, the sixth, like quarter, not quartile, sixthile or whatever it would be. So I'm wondering if it's kind of that, because I think in, in Technology and in maths, you might say that, what's the sigma of this? What's the difference? So maybe it's a little bit more than just a word they've made up. Maybe, maybe the Alphas are just geniuses.
Leanne ElliottProbably. Maybe. Maybe.
Al ElliottMaybe they just make things up. Carry on. What else we got?
Leanne ElliottUm, so then we've got gyat, spelled G-Y-A-T, pronounced gyat. You've heard this one, haven't you?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottNo, honestly.
Leanne ElliottWhat would you think it is? What would be your guess?
Al ElliottGyat. Um, honestly, I just don't even know where to start because what's the context? Can you gimme a little bit of context?
Leanne ElliottThey have an amazing giotte.
Al ElliottAss.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah. So apparently it's a shortened version. I'm guessing this is from the American giotte dang, as in like goddamn. And it's, it's used to basically compliment somebody on an impressive bottom. So Gen Alpha has taken this and really run with it. They've actually created levels so you can get a giotte level 1, giotte level 2, giotte level 3. My understanding is the higher the level, the better the bottom.
Al ElliottThat's what I was going to ask.
Leanne ElliottYeah, my understanding is, but if you're a Gen Alpha, write in and let us know. Um, and then finally we heard—
Al ElliottCan you imagine Gen Alpha posting a letter? Carry on.
Leanne ElliottYou don't even know what a stamp is, do you? Um, and then finally we had mewing. Have you heard of mewing, Al?
Al ElliottI have heard of it, but I don't know what it means.
Leanne ElliottSo mewing is actually— it started as a facial exercise to give yourself a more defined jawline. So it's basically putting your— I'm coming off. So we can— you put your tongue at the top of your— the roof of your mouth, make sure your lips are together, and then swallow. So you kind of make a little pout, like a little—
Al Elliottyou all right? Yes, just made me gag. I wouldn't be mewing. Go on.
Leanne ElliottI guess you kind of make it— it's like a pout, right? And to give you a defined jawline. But Gen Alpha have turned it into a whole gesture. So they do the tongue on the roof of the mouth thing, and then they put their finger over the lips. So I'm gonna do it for you, okay?
Al ElliottYou're looking at me. I am.
Leanne ElliottSo they'll go—
Al ElliottWhat the hell does that mean? That looks like a Sopranos thing, like you're about to get capped.
Leanne ElliottWell, kind of. It's kind of a— it's kind of on that, on that line, I guess. So basically, it's what Gen Alpha will do if their parent or a teacher or somebody in authority asks them a question that they don't want to answer, which basically saying, can't talk right now, I'm mewing. Yeah, I mean, next time your boss asks you to work overtime, hit them with a mewing and see what happens. Crash Course in Gen Alpha. I'm scared.
Al ElliottI don't think I'll be using any of those, and I don't think I'm interested. I think, you know, sometimes you just get to a certain age, you go, that's not for me. I'm just not interested. I'm just not even gonna try and understand that.
Leanne ElliottI quite like skibidi just because I like saying it, and it also sounds quite like, um, something you'd say like in during like the war times. Skibidi goddamn, that's a great peach pie kind of thing, you know.
Al ElliottWe should have more impressions of you on the pod. I really like that.
Leanne ElliottApologies to all, um, all Southern Americans there.
Al ElliottThat was a skibidi impression, which either means it's good or bad, we're not sure. Anyway, right, okay, look, Leanne, I have found something perhaps a little more— I don't want to say highbrow because that sounds like—
Leanne ElliottNo, I'm sure it is.
Al ElliottBut I was reading Fast Company magazine because I'm basically a boomer. I was reading Fast Company magazine, um, and there was a great article written by Tracy Bauer, or Brower. I'm not sure, Tracy, how you say it. If you're listening, let us know. Um, and it's an article about the 7 red flags of a bad manager. Now, this is one of those right up your street. Tracy Bauer is a PhD psychologist who's focused on work-life happiness and fulfillment. She's the VP of Workplace Insights for Steelcase and the author of 2 books, The Secrets to Happiness at Work and Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work.
Leanne ElliottThanks.
Al ElliottWe should, we should maybe buy one of those and, uh, and see if she's worth bringing on as a guest. Well, let's face it, a bad manager is the number one reason for people being unhappy at work. And leaving their job. As Leanne always says, people don't leave jobs, they leave managers.
Leanne ElliottI don't think I said that originally. I've requoted that.
Al ElliottFair enough. Well, I've heard you say it, so therefore, as far as I'm concerned, you've said it and you're the author. You coined the phrase. Anyway, this article by Tracy shows you how to spot bad bosses at interview, but it's also gonna help you if you understand if your current manager or why your current manager is not making you happy. So according to a survey by FlexJobs, 87% of people say they've worked for a toxic boss. Now, this was what was interesting. A study by the Workforce Institute found that 69% of people say their leader has a greater impact on their mental health than their doctor or therapist.
Leanne ElliottI've read that statistic.
Al ElliottNow, some of the more obvious toxic member— toxic member? That sounds like a Gen Z thing.
Leanne ElliottYou've got a toxic member?
Al ElliottDefinitely sounds like a Gen Z thing. Oh yeah, he's a toxic member. Skibidi. Toxic member. So let me start that again. Some of the more obvious toxic manager traits to avoid are the demanding manager. That's the one who doesn't understand work-life balance. The micromanager, one who just can't butt out your work. And the arrogant manager, that's the one who thinks they're so clever and wants to take credit from anyone else. Tracy has got 7 in total, but the one that jumped out at me, which was a bit of a surprise, was something she calls the chill manager. Now, on the surface, it sounds like everyone wants a chill manager, but Tracy explains why you'd be wrong. And I'm going to read from the article she— because she sums it up perfectly. While being relaxed may seem like a good thing, you'll want to watch out for leaders who lack a sense of urgency, commitment, or dedication. Ultimately, we all want a leader who's energised about the work and the team, and who can motivate you as well. You'll be most satisfied when a leader holds you accountable and is tuned in enough to provide recognition for your effort. In addition, watch out for the leader who doesn't set guidelines about when you should be in the office, or who fails to provide clarity about what kind of work you'll be doing. While the flexibility may seem positive, if a leader takes it too far, it can quickly translate into your own disengagement. After all, if the leader doesn't care, why should you? I thought that was really interesting and I'd never come across that. And to be honest, if someone said that's the kind of manager I've got, I've got, I think, oh, that sounds quite cool, but clearly not, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's called laissez-faire in terms of a leadership style in literature. Um, yeah. Um, yeah, no, exactly that, isn't it? It's almost going full circle, isn't it? That if you really don't care, then it can be almost as toxic. The reason why is because, as the author said there— sorry, what was the name of the author?
Al ElliottTracy Bauer.
Leanne ElliottTracy Bauer. As Tracy was saying there, if you're not setting clear rules or boundaries, or just in terms of expectations of the team, then that breeds ambiguity, and we really don't like ambiguity that triggers our threat response, which makes us anxious, um, and increases stress hormones. So, so yeah, I've— I'm not surprised that that is, that is a popular thing.
Al ElliottWell, if you've got a— funny, because in our weekly workplace surgery, we tend to have— we— this is where you send the questions in and we— and Leanne answers them. A lot of the questions tend to be around the manager, um, and you'll find that if you scroll back, we've been doing it for probably about 10 weeks now, so you probably find 10 30 questions, and the majority of them are around a manager. If you have your own question about a manager, then drop us a line, check the show notes, and we can do it anonymously. If you— we usually do anonymously, but if you want to be named, we can do that. Um, and Leanne will answer your question about managers. If you want to read this article, which I suggest you do, check the show notes, the link is in there. Lee, anything else you've seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottYes, lightening the mood slightly. Sorry, I got a bit depressed myself a bit then with the state of management still. Um, Paris 2024. I did have a bit of a mentee being here, but it's fine, it's all skibidi. So the Paris 2024 Olympics came to a close on Sunday with a very strange appearance from Tom Cruise. Do you know, I do find it interesting that we all just seem to forget that he's basically a cult leader, but we're fine with it. Um, Scientology, don't come for me, it's an opinion. Um, anyway, I, I proper loved the Olympics. We had a bit of a week off last week, and most mornings into the early afternoons, I would watch whatever weird and wonderful events we're on. My new favorite sport is climbing, specifically the boulder and lead combined event. It's so cool because they have to climb walls that they've never seen before. Like, they've never seen it. And on the lead one, if they fall off, that's it, done. 4 years of training done in 10 seconds if they slip.
Al ElliottJust, just want to say quickly that when they fall off, they've got a rope attached. If you've not seen it, it's not like they fall off and they're done and they're taken off on a stretcher and that's the end of their career is just—
Leanne Elliottno, it's not The Hunger Games, it's the Olympics.
Al ElliottCarry on.
Leanne ElliottBut yeah, it's— I just, I absolutely loved it. I absolutely loved it. So it got me thinking, as one, as I'm sure the many new supporters of these types of sports, what roles do supporters play when it comes to sports and athletes' performance? And then I thought, well, there must be some new research out there given that the last Olympics, Tokyo 2020, which happened in 2021, was actually held behind pretty much closed doors because of the pandemic. So what research has been done to better understand the effects of crowd now that we've got this kind of weird environment, an unusual environment that we can look into? Well, I did a little research. So studies have shown that different sports respond differently to audience effects. So for instance, in high-precision tasks like archery or shooting, did you see the dude? Was it Turkey?
Al ElliottYeah, Turkish, just turned up, shot, went and had a cig. Went home.
Leanne ElliottWhat a legend. Um, but anyway, archery shooting, the, um, the presence of a loud jeering crowd can actually be a distraction. Sounds kind of intuitive and leads to poor performance. So it is as if the brain's processing power can get split between focusing on the task and dealing with the noise and excitement around it. And if that happens in certain scenarios, then it can lead to mistakes. But then in sports like football or basketball, where energy and momentum are really crucial, the same crowd can be a massive boost. So the collective energy from the audience can actually elevate the team spirit and lead to the unforgettable moments of brilliance that we all love to watch. So one study from Tokyo 2020 Olympics, which as I said was held kind of without spectators due to the pandemic, showed a noticeable difference in performance. So athletes, especially in team sports, reported feeling a lack of motivation and energy without the crowd. So this absence really does highlight how much of a role spectators play, not just in terms of support, but in terms of creating the atmosphere that drives these athletes to push beyond their limits. But of course, it's not always clean-cut. Oh no. So a 2011 study found that in some cases, a silent or even hostile crowd— so we're thinking kind of jeers, boos— they can also lead to better performance for some athletes. So that's basically where, and particularly in more individual sports, this is been observed. So where the athlete might, um, use this negativity to basically, um, as fuel to prove the, the crowd wrong. Um, so really interesting. So what does it mean in the world of work? What is the relevance? Well, I guess understanding the psychological impact of things like support and recognition is important. And what it's taught us in terms of sports is that it really just depends on the individual. It depends on the sport or the business. It depends on the athlete or the employee. And actually, the more we try and understand this, the more effective we can be in our support and recognition. Um, so yeah, just as sports, a cookie-cutter approach won't work. It's all about individualization and better understanding.
Al ElliottWhat's interesting is that we've had quite a few people on, quite a few guests on, who've come from a sports or athletic background, um, and, and they are now experts in leadership, experts in business, uh, they're entrepreneurs, It's quite an interesting sort of parallel. Um, so if you, if you want to learn how the best managers, or how to be a great manager, then just go and look at football, for example, and look at— I don't want to say Alex Ferguson because he's polarizing because it's Man United, but apparently he is one of the best. And then also Klopp. Let's just, let's just level it up. Klopp and Wenger as well, I think, are supposed to be some of the best managers ever. And look at what they do because there's so much overlap.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is really interesting. I actually have been putting together a little playlist, which I will publish this week, um, probably on Friday, of all the incredible sports people we've had on the show, just to kind of give you your fill now that the Olympics is finished and before the Paralympics start, um, I think next week, maybe the week after. Um, so yeah, it's really interesting. There is something about elite high-performance people that, that, yeah, just attracted to, to the business world and usually do pretty well. And again, it's that teamwork, isn't it? It's that understanding the dynamics, understanding how the difference— great management, great coaching— can can make. Um, again, I wonder why it's taking so long to transfer over. But there you go, that's the news roundup, um, for another week.
Al ElliottOkay, so after this very, very quick break, we have got the brand new Workplace Time Capsule segment that Leanne just invented and sprung on me a few minutes ago. And we've also got the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. We'll see you in just a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch Break wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. So this is the Workplace Time Capsule.
Leanne ElliottYes, so the Workplace Time Capsules is bringing you lessons from the '60s, '70s, and '80s world of work using some of the awesome archive footage that is now being posted online. This week we have a clip from the BBC about the Peter Principle.
Al ElliottPeter Principle. I've definitely heard of that. It's not Peter Parker, different thing. Tell me, what does it mean?
Leanne ElliottIt basically states that in a hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to their level of incompetence. So the mind behind the Peter Principle, Dr. Laurence J. Peter, explains some of the observations that informed his theory and has some advice for those of you who wish to avoid reaching your own level of incompetence. This was originally broadcast in March 1974.
Al ElliottI saw that very often competent people, the competent individual, was promoted to something he couldn't do. I saw a competent mechanic where I used to take my car.
Leanne ElliottHe was terrific.
Al ElliottHe was very responsible, very precise, knew exactly what he was doing. So they made him foreman. Now he's no longer fixing And he's trying to manage other mechanics. And he's very incompetent. He doesn't do this well. He's really a competent mechanic and an incompetent foreman. I also observed that a competent salesman, a man who is just terrific at dealing with people, with a great personality, very popular, well-liked, Good at selling personally. His sales were so good that they made him sales manager. And in this position, he'd found his level of incompetence because he was atrocious at the paperwork, atrocious at designing the territories for his salesmen. In other words, he was not good at dealing through other people or organizing other people. I saw competent engineers getting promoted to supervisory positions.
Leanne ElliottThey were great at dealing with things and incompetent at dealing with people.
Al ElliottAnd over and over again, I saw this phenomenon, and I called it the Peter Principle. The Peter Principle states very simply that in any hierarchy, an employee tends to rise to his level of Incompetence. That's where he stays. Right. I have a question for you, Lee. This is, this is my question. If you are competent at something, then it suggests you don't have challenge anymore because you're competent. So therefore, your next challenge is going to be probably a promotion, which you are going to be incompetent at, at some point. So does that mean that we don't want to have any kind of challenge? We want to just basically find where we're happy and just do nothing?
Leanne ElliottI think it comes down to what, what challenge do we need that's going to challenge us and push us out of our comfort zone, but that we'll also succeed in. I think the key thing, um, that was said there is that, you know, just because you're, you're competent at doing a thing doesn't mean you're confident in managing people. I think that's it. And the trouble is, you know, there's, there's only so many routes to progress in organizations as they stand right now. We're very old-fashioned in, in kind of how we structure our organizations. So typically individual contributors contributors will have to become managers to, to progress in the organization, to, to earn more money, to be more successful. Um, so yeah, I think, I think it's the, the kind of the diversity of roles in the organizations that are limiting people and then pushing people who aren't as competent in a very different skill set, managing people, um, into a role that they can't do. But the literature just has something to say on this as well. Um, so I did, I did dive into, um, a bit of the research to see is the Peter Principle kind of widely accepted? Um, and as usual, it depends really. So one study found strong evidence that firms often prioritize promoting the best performers in their current jobs, such as top salespeople, rather than those with the highest potential to be effective managers. And this supports the Peter Principle, as the best worker doesn't always make the best manager. So I guess what it's saying is if you have a sales team and you're at the point where you want to promote a manager, intuitively you'll think the person who's bringing in the highest amount of revenue is going to make the best manager because they'll be able to pass on their skills, rally the team, motivate everybody. But it's not true. What you're doing is you're making a very big assumption that the skills this person has as a salesperson is going to make them a good manager. And that's why it comes down to understanding the skills that you actually need for the role. And it might be that one of your salespeople who's kind of average in terms of revenue is going to make the best salesperson. Um, so yeah, I mean, other research is also kind of really kind of argued, um, and actually a paper from Stanford University in 2004 agreed the logic of the Peter Principle, which just states that people are promoted at their level of incompetence, based on what you said, Al, in that that's kind of what has to happen. Um, so, you know, it's what the misunderstanding is, is that there's a misalignment in the promotion process, and that's what they, they don't agree with. So they argue it's more a statistical matter.
Al ElliottSo we are now at the part where it is the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery with Leanne Elliott, my co-host and wife.
Leanne ElliottThat's me.
Al ElliottYou should know by now she's a chartered psychologist who specialises in helping organisations build amazing workplace cultures. So let's get into today's questions. Le, are you ready for question number 1?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottLook, I've spent quite a lot of time on Reddit and especially on something called Antiwork because it's a really interesting subreddit. Here's a question from Antiwork. It's not from a listener. I've stolen it from Reddit. I'm a software engineer and my girlfriend thinks I'm stealing from my boss. This is the situation. I work 100% remotely and I fix bugs and handle support tickets. Over the last few years, I've spent a lot of time and effort understanding the software I'm working on. So for me, most problems are relatively easy fixes. I'm paid to work 40 hours a week, but usually complete my work in 20 to 25 hours. In addition, I'm completing 30% more tickets than the average developer. For context, I do about 250 tickets a month. The lowest is 40 and the highest is 400 tickets a month. So here we are. My company is focused on metrics, and as far as they're concerned, I'm absolutely killing it. I get promotions, bonuses, great reviews in my annual appraisal, etc., etc. I love my work. I love that it gives me a great work-life balance, but my girlfriend thinks I should own up and take on more work so I can work the full 40 hours. What do you think?
Leanne ElliottBreak up with your girlfriend.
Al ElliottFunny, a lot of the comments did say you don't need to change jobs, change girlfriend.
Leanne ElliottI, I don't— I don't think— I think you want the other question answered. I think you're asking a question about your relationship here. Um, I'm— I do know what— I'm with you. If you've worked, you know, you want to hire the smart lazy people. They'll find those processes to make things, um, work more efficiently, more effectively. If you're smashing it at work, if your manager is happy, if your performance is in the top 10%, you're loving your job, you're feeling fulfilled. Um, cool. I don't think there's a problem there. There is an argument that as time goes on, you'll start to get a bit bored. You'll start to— you start to languish is the term that's used in the literature, um, also known as rust out. You'll stop to stop having that fulfillment in your work. I mean, it could be. It's up to you, isn't it? You know, when you're ready and if you want to, you could go to your manager and say, Look, I'm, I'm, I'm doing all right. I've got some extra time. Are there some projects I can work on? Even better, you find the project and take it to your manager and say, I want to do this as a bit of a stretch development activity. He'll— your manager will probably go— he or she will go, or they will go, have you got the time? And you'll go, yeah, I think I can make it work, knowing fine well you can't. So that is, that is an option, but that is completely within, within your control and your decision. If your managers are happy, it sounds like your organization manages on metrics and outputs. Hurrah! As long as you're getting the job done, your employer is happy, you're fulfilled, I really don't see a problem here. As long as you've got one eye on the future, being aware that over time you, you may start to become unsatisfied with the level of challenge in, in your job. As for your girlfriend, it sounds like she's a bit jelly. Does she work from home as well, or even from the office? She's working 40 hours a week, she sees you working 20 to 25.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI, I don't think you have anything to confess to. It sounds like you've got an awesome organization you work for who manage people in, in the right way, in a smart way. I'm not sure what your manager would say to you if you came and said, I've been lying, I need to fess up, I only work 25 hours a week. I think if a member of my staff came to me, and I also manage by outputs and metrics, I'd be like, Good for you. Do you want me to do something about that? Do you want more work, or should we just keep it, keep it as it is? I don't know. I'm— maybe I'm— maybe I'm— maybe there's some managers out there shouting at their phone going, give them more work, they're stealing from the company. Maybe. But if you've got a highly engaged, high-performing member of staff who's fulfilled in their role, I don't— and they're delivering what you need them to deliver. I don't, I don't see an issue. You will get your money's worth out of that person. You will, you will get more money's worth out of that person than somebody who's performing at a lower level, is disengaged in their work, and is working the full 40 hours a week. In terms of value-add, I know who I'd want in my business.
Al ElliottExactly. As, um, as you alluded to before, um, I think it was Bill Gates who said, I always want to, I want to employ people who are intelligent and lazy because they will always find shortcuts. And that basically sounds like what you've, what you've thought, what this guy has found. It's, um, really interesting. I think, I think also the other thing to consider is that in a job like software development, there's a fair amount of thinking time. So you might say you might spend 20 to 25 hours a week, but if you really, if you know, if you're really into the software, you probably spend another 10 hours thinking about it, which is going to help you, uh, to solve problems. So really interesting answer there, look.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and do you know what, that's a really good point. You do your best thinking work when you're not sat looking at your computer. It'll be when you're walking the dog or when you're watching telly even, or you're having a cup of tea. Yeah, thinking, thinking time is, is really important. Good point.
Al ElliottOkay, question number 2, Leanne. Are you ready for this question?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottAll right, so this is from a leader, and I don't think it's clear on whether this person owns the business or they're just a senior leader the business, but I'm having to make a redundancy in the next few months due to a large contract that abruptly ended. This means I have to get rid of one of 2 people who essentially do the same job, but I'm a bit conflicted. Ross, not his real name, is a great colleague, fun to be around, gets on well with everyone, and gives the job everything. Jake, again, not his real name, is kind of the opposite in every way except he's absolutely amazing at getting projects done on time. My business head says get rid of Ross because Jake, the guy who's not nice to be around but fabulous at doing the work, Jake will make me more money. Quite a bit more, they say. But it's also— he's also— Jake is kind of an asshole. So my heart says get rid of Jake, but I'm potentially throwing away significant profit. Do I keep Ross, who is a beautiful person, lovely to be around, everyone loves, but does do the work quite as well as Jake, who's the complete opposite, total asshole, but he does the do. What do you think?
Leanne ElliottFirst of all, I would rewind a little bit and just ask, is this redundancy absolutely essential? Is there some way of, of reallocating work or reallocating this person to another team or department? Because it doesn't really matter. Even making redundancy of one is gonna have a really negative impact on your business, and particularly the engagement, motivation, and trust of, um, whichever employee is left from these 2. There's a statistic which is really quite shocking, and it's that if you make even just a 1%, um, redundancy— 1% of your workforce redundant— over the next 12 months, you're going to experience a 30% voluntary turnover rate. Which is insane.
Al ElliottAnd when you say voluntary turnover, you mean people leaving?
Leanne ElliottJust leaving. Yeah, people just wanting to leave, finding a new job. Because any redundancy, even if it's one out of hundreds, it breeds this thought of, well, is the company in a bad place? We heard they've lost this big contract, and now, now Ross or whoever has lost their job. What's to say they won't lose another contract? What's to say that my job won't be, um, won't be at risk in the future. That breeds ambiguity and stress, and that's when people go, do you know what, that— what was it— career cushioning, start to look around, keep my eye out. And that's why we see that, that natural attrition over, over the 12 months after redundancy is made. So first of all, I would wind it back. And if there is any way of keeping— I mean, it's 2 people. I understand if you're in a small business, that's a chunky, chunky amount of revenue. Is there something else this person can do? Particularly, I'm thinking of— is it Ross, the guy that he seems to really like?
Al ElliottBut this is the good guy, Jake is the bad guy.
Leanne ElliottSo look at Ross and go, right, well, we love him, he's a great team player, he's great for camaraderie, he's great for motivation, he's not so great at delivering the do. Where else can we put Ross where the skills that we all love about him are going to thrive and he's going to do really well and he's going to do his life's best work? That's what I'd be thinking more than what, which one to make redundant. That said, if you absolutely have to, you have to make this decision not on gut and not on heart. Red flags, red flags to any manager that is making decisions on, on gut and heart, particularly in, in a redundancy scenario, because in terms of unfair dismissal, unlawful dismissal, people can and should come for you if they feel that's not done fairly and transparently. If you don't have a HR in your organization, I would would highly strongly recommend that you consult an HR consultant before you do anything to really kind of go through the evidence that you might have in terms of performance, in terms of, um, how they're showing up to work, in terms of their performance reviews, so you can make the most transparent and objective, non-biased decision. Um, the issue here is that you're clearly invested, um, either— it's strong words, strong emotive words either way. You know, he's an asshole. He's lovely. We're we've grown an emotional level here, and we can't make these decisions on an emotional level. We'll make ourselves liable to all sorts, all sorts of actions. So yeah, engage, engage an advisor consultant immediately. If you really, really can't do that, then try and try and bring in another colleague. Try and bring in a different perspective. As I said again, try and get all the evidence together. You can in terms of performance metrics, in terms of performance reviews, in terms of colleague customer sentiment. Try and make the process transparent. Um, at this point, I'm, I'm really worried that you're putting yourself at risk here. Um, so really, I would say it's not engaging an expert consultant at this point is potentially going to be really a really risky move for you. I would, I would say find, find the money to, even if it's just a couple of hours, because making the decision, even just the way you're talking and the emotive words that you're using, this is, this is bias and this is, this is illegal.
Al ElliottGreat answer. Great answer. And I think it's, um, what something you said there was really, really resonated with me that you go, all right, well, I'll save some money. So let's just say arbitrarily that they're both them are getting $50,000 a year. So you think, oh, I'll save some money, I save $50,000 by getting rid of one of them. But if what you're saying is that one of them goes and then 30% of the rest of the people, um, they, they leave as well over the next 12 months, the cost of replacing them will probably exceed that $50,000.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd so, so as Leanne said, maybe there's something else that, uh, that Ross or Jake, whoever you decide to go with, can do. It does sound a lot like Jake might Thrive in a slightly different, um, perhaps as a team leader, perhaps as just someone who perhaps is client-facing. Because if he's, if he's a really nice guy, then maybe that's the case.
Leanne ElliottSo that would be my inclination. It sounds that way, doesn't it, that Ross is a bit wasted? He's obviously valued, but he's not performing in the role he's in. So that would be my, my thought is what else can we get him doing that is going to work really good for you, really good for the business, potentially generate some revenue. If that's in the position that we're in, um, and keep 2 great talents in your business. It— great talent doesn't always have to be likable. Great talent is great talent.
Al ElliottOkay, next question. I don't know whether you're going to be able to answer this exactly because they do ask whether it's illegal to do that, and we don't know where this person is, uh, but let's just hear your thoughts on it. Do I lie about being unemployed? Last year I was let go and it was one of the most stressful periods of my life. I Immediately started looking for similar jobs, but nobody was hiring. I ended up working a very basic fast food service job on and off for a few months to survive. Yes, you're thinking of the right company. I'm guessing it's red and yellow. But it was obviously totally unrelated to my expertise, and I kept it very quiet as I was slightly embarrassed. Now I have an exciting interview for a similar position to my old job, so we're back to doing what I love and getting paid well for it. But at the interview, how do I explain the gap? in my work history. I don't really want to admit to letting go. So maybe I could rebrand that as me evaluating my life for some time. But what I really don't want to do is admit to working in fast food because I feel this would get me laughed out of the interview. Is it legal to not mention a job I had? Is it better to admit to being unemployed and doing nothing for a year than tell them I flipped burgers for rent money?
Leanne ElliottThere's a few things going on there, aren't there? And questions to answer. But there's a, there's a Mark Twain quote that's something like, if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. And I think there's a, there's a thing that I'd say in terms of if you start making lies, if you start being deceitful, regardless of, of whether it's legal or not, it's not a great foot to start a new relationship with an employer on. Um, this kind of deceit And then you're gonna have to remember stuff. And then what if you work for this company for 3 months and you bump into someone that you used to work with in this fast chain restaurant and it all comes out? And it's all gonna be a bit awkward and, and could potentially erode trust in the future. So my, my thought would be don't lie. Don't make something up that is untruthful. In terms of is it illegal to not disclose where you've been working, I don't really know. And it does depend where in the world you are. I'm not an HR, um, kind of employment law expert. That's not my, my area. Um, so I don't know. But what I do know is a lot about, um, how to respond to redundancy as a candidate, how to manage that career transition, and how to present your professional and executive brand to the world in a way that is, is compelling. So I would say there's a few things to look at here. One, you say you don't want tell people that you're made redundant. I want to question why, because it's a really common experience, um, even more so over the last, you know, 4 years since the pandemic. I, I haven't seen any recent statistics, but I would say it's probably as high as 1 in 5, if not 1 in 4 workers now that would have been made redundant at some point in their career. It's very, very common. So I don't think you're going to shock anybody by being made redundant, particularly if it was from an industry that experienced Um, you know, high rates of redundancy over the past few years. So my question, why, is that— is because have you not dealt with that? Have you not dealt with that redundancy? And it is a really emotive thing. It's really hard. I was made redundant myself, and it's one of the most challenging things I've ever been through. It's like a bereavement. And you have to go through that process of ending that chapter and dealing with those negative emotions, that anger, that frustration, that embarrassment, that shame, to be able to move on effectively. And It sounds like you haven't done that, and then you've also then wrapped up in some more shame for taking a job that, that you feel is, is below you, being honest, by the sound that, you know, the way you're telling it. So my thought would be, it's hard at this point looking back retrospectively, but try and talk about how you can, um, try and think about how you can talk about the redundancy in a positive way. Um, so yeah, I was caught up in the 2023 redundancies by Google. Really tough time for everybody, you know, thousands of people made redundant. What I found really interesting about that time is I learned a lot about myself. It gave me time to reflect on, on what I wanted to do with my career, and this is why I'm sat in front of you today having this interview talking about this role that I'm really excited about. You always want to project forward whilst accepting and acknowledging what, what happened. In terms of the role in the fast food restaurant, Um, my thought is any gap more than 6 months on a CV is going to need an explanation. And an explanation of, I didn't do anything, or I was unemployed, is going to be viewed more negatively than saying, yeah, I worked at McDonald's for 12 months. And if someone goes, why did you do that? You go, well, you know what, I just couldn't not work. I couldn't not be productive, and I couldn't not feel the sense of doing something. And you know what, I learned a lot about that time. I learned a lot about processes. I learned a lot about customer service. I learned a lot about how to engage with people from all different walks of life. I learned about how hard it is for people, you know, with, with shift patterns. And there's so many lessons you can take from that to apply into whatever role it is that you're doing, whether it's management, whether it's tech, whether it's whatever. There will be lessons you can take from that. And the fact that I think to any employer that you're saying I I couldn't do nothing. It's just not in me to do nothing. Is going to be infinitely more positive than saying I didn't do anything for 12 months or feeling the shame around that. Um, I don't think people will, will shame you as much as you think they will for taking this job. I think people recognize that it's a really tough, really tough market out there. It's a tough climate. You do what you got to do, you know, to get by, and that's what you did, and good for you. Yeah. I would, I would think that there's a lot of shame wrapped up here, and I wonder if actually that it's the hangover shame from the redundancy that you're carrying with you into, into your role in this fast food chain. I'm not sure that that is exactly, um, the element that you are finding shameful. I would recommend you look at some self-coaching exercises. There's a great book called The Leader's Guide to Resilience by Dr. Audrey Tang that has some brilliant reflective exercise in there. Um, check out our episode with Louise Kershaw. She also offered a free guide. If you go to the show notes of that episode, uh, you'll find the, the link to the guide in there. She's a phenomenal coach. Sometimes even just a couple of sessions with a coach can help work through some of these. Um, book in an hour with me, we'll, we'll talk about some of it as well. Um, but yes, I guess to summarize, don't lie. Personally, I think there's more positives to be said about you working in a fast food chain than not doing anything for 12 months. Um, and thirdly, address the redundancy career trauma, job trauma, work trauma that you went to— went through. Um, it sounds like you haven't, and you're carrying the shame through with you. That's fine if you carried that through into your, your fast food role. That can be unpicked and that can be reframed. you could carry that shame on for the next 3, 5 years, and that's what we need to, to avoid. Um, so yeah, that would be my advice.
Al ElliottFabulous advice. I love the idea of reframing this. I think that, that's probably the most powerful thing you can do, both from, from a mental point of view, from your own mental health point of view, but also, um, when you're actually talking to this— these interviewers, is going, I didn't want to go and take a job that was 4 steps down or a different— I, I want this This is the role for me. So I was willing to go and work at McDonald's for 12 months until this job came up. And that's why I'm here today, because I wasn't willing to settle. And you just reframe it and you're like, wow, that's kind of quite powerful. So, and I'm saying again, that also might help you reframe slightly in your head. So fabulous, fabulous answer. Didn't go the way I thought it was gonna go, Leanne. Really?
Leanne ElliottWhat did you think?
Al ElliottI didn't know. I didn't know what you were gonna say, but I, I love the idea of trauma. It's something which hadn't occurred to me when I read this. I had— hadn't occurred to me, and it's something which I think is very, very important for people to, to know about. So that is the end of our work weekly workplace surgery. If you have a question for Leanne, then check the show notes. There'll be a way in which you can submit your question. They are anonymous by default, but if you want to be named, I'm happy to call out your name.
Leanne ElliottAnd we will be back next Tuesday with another This Week in Work episode. We'll be breaking you the news roundup, our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery, and our new segment, our Workplace Time Capsule. If you see any cool videos online, tag us in @TruthLiesAndWork. We'll include them in the show. Anything else to add, Al?
Al ElliottYeah, just a big thank you to all the people who subscribed recently, um, who helped us get to number 2 in the business charts for Spotify, um, and basically everyone who supported us. We get lovely messages, we get lovely people who, um, previous guests, people, friends of previous guests who just say lovely things. So if you do like this stuff, then click that subscribe button because that not only helps us, uh, to get found more often, but it also gives us a little bit of a like, oh, we got more subscribers, and that, and that still really makes us happy. So if you want to help us, click that subscribe. If you really want to help us, then maybe share the episode with some of your friends. Anything else to add before we say goodbye, Lee? No.
Leanne ElliottGoodbye, Lees.
Al ElliottBye, guys. Bye. Because this week on this show, we have put our weekly news right— that wasn't a very good link. Have you Googled it? And are you now going to pretend that you know it off the top of your head?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I kind of knew it off the top of my head.
Al ElliottYou're such a professional. I love it. Okay, let's go and pretend that you're just remembering this. Go.
Leanne ElliottYou're gonna put that in the outtakes, aren't you?
Al Elliott100%.
Leanne ElliottYou bastard. There's a, there's a Mark Twain quote that I've had to just Google because I couldn't remember it. Foxed you.
Al ElliottPeople is like, what the hell?
Leanne ElliottOh, this is very self-deprecating, Al. Bloody hell, we're meant to be bumping ourselves up.
Al ElliottIt's like, no, you're right, you're right.
Leanne ElliottIt's not about the YouTube. Daddy's work.
Al ElliottDaddy's work.