Episode 125 · 5 September 2024 · 47:48
The Willy Wonka Office: How Ed Williams and Candy Kittens are Redefining the Workplace
The Willy Wonka Office: How Ed Williams and Candy Kittens are Redefining the Workplace
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Introducing Ed Williams and Candy Kittens
How Ed met Jamie Laing and started the business
The mission: knocking Haribo off their perch
Building the team and the probation period
Autonomy, freedom, and the clubhouse approach
Managing millennials and Gen Z expectations
Employee feedback on the new space
interview#employee-feedback#workplace#humor
Unlimited holiday: does it actually work?
Advice for creating an office people love and key takeaways
interview#advice#office-culture#key-takeaways
Show notes
The Willy Wonka Office: How Ed Williams and Candy Kittens Are Redefining the Workplace
Episode 125 — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) sit down with Ed Williams, co-founder and CEO of Candy Kittens, to explore how a sweets brand built a "real-life Willy Wonka factory" in the heart of London — and what it teaches us about culture, autonomy, and the future of work.
Candy Kittens started as a "sweets company without sweets." Today, it's one of the UK's fastest-growing confectionery brands, stocked in major supermarkets worldwide. But it's the workspace that's turning heads. Known as The Sweet Factory, it's designed to feel less like an office and more like a clubhouse — a deliberate experiment in what happens when you put creativity and collaboration at the centre of the physical environment.
Ed joins Al and Leanne to unpack the thinking behind the space, the realities of managing a young team with big expectations, and why unlimited holiday might not be the perk it appears to be.
Top 3 Takeaways
Design for how people actually work, not how you think they should. Ed asked his team where they liked to work — coffee shops, home, the office — and built The Sweet Factory around those answers. The result? People dress smarter, bring in their families, and want to be there.
Autonomy is a muscle that needs training. Giving the team "virtually complete freedom" sounds great on paper, but Ed admits it takes adjustment. The key is pairing freedom with a clear sense of mission — and being honest that it doesn't work for everyone.
Unlimited holiday needs a second look. Ed openly says Candy Kittens is reviewing their unlimited holiday policy. On paper it sounds ideal; in practice, it can create anxiety about taking time off. The lesson: perks only work if they're actively modelled and supported by leadership.
More From Ed Williams & Candy Kittens
- Ed's LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/edward-williams
- The Sweet Factory Designer: Lick Paints on Instagram
- Book mentioned: Shoe Dog by Phil Knight
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team Can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies, and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Welcome to the HR Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the site to work and create amazing workplaces.
Al ElliottYes, yes, yes. We're back with a regular Thursday interview series. This is the first one you've heard for a little while because we had August off. We just did the Tuesday episode, so we're back with these Thursday ones. So, if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes like today are definitely right up your street. If you like to keep abreast of the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, then you'll like Tuesdays too, where we bring you our weekly news roundup, our September segment called the New Voices, and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottBut today, let's get into it. Let's get into today's guest, Ed Williams, who co-founded Candy Kittens, one of the UK's fastest-growing confectionery brands which produces vegan sweets without any weird additives and can be found in most major UK supermarkets, as well as across the world. His business partner is Jamie Lang, a household name who has appeared on the runaway TV hit Made in Chelsea, has a podcast with over 40 million downloads.
Ed WilliamsShow off, show off.
Leanne ElliottJamie, my man. And is the great-great-grandson of Sir Alexander Grant, who invented the digestive biscuit back in 1892.
Al ElliottThe king of biscuits. I mean, that would be enough to pack a 40-minute episode alone. We're gonna be talking about something a little bit different. See, a few years ago, Ed and Jamie realised their dream of building an office that was a kind of a real-life Willy Wonka factory. It's unlike any office you've ever seen and has revolutionised the way Ed and Jamie's employees work.
Leanne ElliottWe love exploring the future of work. In fact, if you scoop back to episode 83 and 84, you'll hear Ogilvy's Rory Sutherland and FT's flagship podcast host Isabel Berrick outlining what the future of work holds. And then have a listen to episode 42 and 43 where we spent 2 days in London at the Clark Wells Design Show interviewing office design experts about what the workplace of the future might look like. Well, Ed and Jamie have done it. They've actually created a workplace, an on-site office where things are done differently. From becoming a B Corp to edible paint and unlimited holidays, these guys have genuinely created something unique in the heart of London. So let's go and meet Ed Williams and hear how it all started.
Al ElliottOh, and if you're not from the UK, then you call sweets candy, just in case you needed that clarification. Okay, so let's go and rejoin the interview with Ed and Leanne and hear the story of how Candy Kittens and The Sweet Factory were born.
Ed WilliamsMy name is Ed Sweet Williams, and I'm the co-founder and CEO at Candy Kittens. I am the lesser-known name behind Candy Kittens, fortunately, which I think is a good thing, and started the business with another chap called Jamie Laing, who lots of people have heard of, about 13 years ago now. So we make vegan sweets and are on a mission to make sweets and treats much more enjoyable and overall better than what they have been until we arrived.
Leanne ElliottHow did you meet, Jamie? How did this business partnership start?
Ed WilliamsIt was through mutual friends after university. So I was in I was interested in design and marketing. I studied industrial design at university, which was 100% the wrong course for me, but always much more interested in the brand and logo that you put on a product than the nuts and bolts of it. And Jamie and I met through mutual friends. He had this sort of crazy idea in his head to start something called Candy Kittens, and he didn't quite know what that was. And when we met, it was just sort of a little bit like a light bulb turning on. We both came together And before I knew it, it's, you know, rolling and we were off to the races and things were happening. It's been lots of ups and downs. I suppose the cliché that everyone talks about, this kind of roller coaster, I'm not sure if it has been like that. It's sort of been a little bit like a plane on the runway sort of trying to take off and constantly running out of runway. We were a sweets company without sweets for the first 2, 2 and a half years. We had a name and an idea in our minds, But we didn't quite get the product where we wanted it to be. So we— because Jamie was on a TV show, the name got out there and we sort of had awareness of what we were doing before we had anything to show anyone, which was quite interesting and made for some sort of challenging times. Right now, if you fast forward to today, we're in every major supermarket in the UK. We have presence across Europe and North America. But UK grocery, the supermarkets, is really our kind of heartland, if you like. And our brand awareness has also grown to a reasonable level that we're quite proud of. Lots of people in the UK, if you're interested in sweets and you buy sweets regularly, you will have hopefully heard of us. But it hasn't always been that. So we were that sweets company without sweets. Then we got the product and it took us a while to sort of figure out what was right and wrong about that. There were— turns out there were quite a lot of things that were wrong with it and we hadn't of cracked it first time around. And then we, uh, had to convince people that 2 young guys with no former experience in food and drink, um, no sort of professional skills or experience really up until that point, were able to justify space on supermarket shelves and deal with these big businesses and compete against multinational kind of corporations. Um, so there's been lots of different challenges along the way, and I think we've We've got to a point now where we've proven all of those doubters and haters wrong. We've shown that there is a concept here that has legs and demand, and now it's about how far can we really take that. So we no longer worry about sort of paying the bills and whether or not we will or won't make it, which we did for a very long time. And now it's more, okay, we've got something, how far can we take it?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Ed Williamswe go. And, and our mission from the start has been to knock Haribo off their perch, and that now feels like something that's, you know, a realistic goal, something we could potentially achieve in our lifetime.
Leanne ElliottI love that goal. I mean, you said haters. I'd imagine that the sweet world is full of sugar and joy.
Ed WilliamsYeah, well, I think that's what the, the assumption is from the outside, and I guess we probably had that sort of rose-tinted look of things. And when Jamie said, I want to start a sweet company, we went out to this huge trade show convention in Germany, which is the largest sweet convention in the world. It happens every year. It's in a place called Cologne. Really, really great event, but we had this sort of magical vision of what it was going to be, that it was going to be this sort of Willy Wonka world with all this excitement and innovation and sort of edible wallpaper and all that sort of stuff. And actually, you get there and it's a load of old men walking around in their gray boring shirt and tie, and it just wasn't what we, we thought it was. And I think a lot of that fun and creativity has been sucked out of sweets through big corporations and big business and factories that need to be running 24/7 to pay the bills. And we were quite inspired by that, to be honest, and thought, okay, we wanted to get into this world because we thought it was fun. We've got there and actually it's not fun at all. So maybe the opportunity is bigger than we thought. Our job is to come back and sort of re-inject some some of that spark and life into a category that's otherwise become pretty dull. I think first and foremost, at Candy Kittens, we are, we are this sort of David and Goliath situation that we're in. So we are going against the Haribos of the world who are spending 10, 20, 30 times as much as we are on advertising and media. They have a brand that is at least double the brand awareness we have. They have all of these things. That are much more established and ingrained because they've been doing it for so much longer. They're a real sort of legacy competitor. So in order for us to compete against them with such a small team and such limited resources, we've really got to be on our A-game and pushing ourselves to punch above our weight. And therefore we attract people that want to come on board and be a part of that. And that's not necessarily for everyone. But it is, we hope, for some of the people that do join us. And our job is to try and look after those people, nurture that kind of culture, and make sure that they're well rewarded for being here. So I think that reward for the sort of person that wants to punch above their weight and be ambitious and strive for more in their own career mirrors what we're doing as a brand. And then at the same time, they're also the people that tend to be better at managing their own time, looking after themselves, and all of that sort of stuff that comes with it. So it kind of clicked into place. We have a longer probation period than most places at Candy Kittens. We have a 6-month probation period, which some people's sort of eyes spring wide open when you tell them that in an interview. But it's designed to really decide, do you want to work here? And the probation period is sort of as much on the new starter as it is on us to say, are you comfortable with being pushed in this way? Do you like being stretched like this? And if the answer is yes, and after that 6 months, it's, you know, we're all good to go, then we don't look back. We have no intention of then sort of changing anything long-term. You've kind of got a job for life as far as we see it. And then I think that also has encouraged much more emphasis on people deciding if they want to be here, and once they do, they're in. We've opened a new office space and we decided to call it the Sweet Factory. It's an old factory building in the center of London, so we're on a mews in Marylebone in London, which is a really nice part of town. And we wanted to sort of put down our anchor in a place that we could sort of really call home and create all of the things we cared about in a sort of physical environment. So during COVID all of our teams sort of left the office and went to work from home. And then after COVID, like virtually every other business that we speak to, have gone through this period of trying to get to grips with, do we work at home, do we work in an office, how often do we work together, all of that sort of stuff. And essentially, we, we lost that kind of human connection to what we were doing. So you can spend a lot of time staring at a screen and numbers and spreadsheets and Zoom calls, and again, it just loses that spark. And And we sort of had to remind ourselves that's why we came into this, is to help also have some fun along the way. And putting this place together I'm sat today is about bringing that sense of fun and collaboration back to the core of what we're about at Candy Kittens. So whether that's for our team, whether it's for our suppliers, our customers, part of the fact that we're in a fairly sort of swanky part of London as well is that that comes, comes with some sort of level of taking yourself seriously and being somewhere that sets the tone for the ambition of who we want to be. And it's been great so far. We're about a month in, um, the team are in the office more than ever. We stipulate that you have to be in for 2 or 3 days a week, but we're finding people are in for 4 or 5. Um, it's, it's been really, really great. And I think the future of working is not necessarily just working in a hybrid way or working from home, working from an office. It's not as kind of binary as that. I think people want to work in a great location, and it's our job as employers to make our office space the best place for them to work. So that's what we're pushing towards. I think first of all, it sort of starts for us with the design. We briefed our team and the designers working on it that we wanted to create an office that didn't look like an office. So there are elements of things that are still needed, right? People still need monitors to be able to plug their laptops into, and people want chairs that are a appropriate for working at a desk and that kind of thing. But the furniture around the building and the decor more generally have all been designed to feel a little bit more like a clubhouse or an apartment. So it's that kind of home away from home in practice. I think it's trying to soften the usual sort of rigid patterns that happen in an office. I walked around one of our customers' offices. I won't say which one, but a big supermarket that you'll all know. Last week, and everybody is in these kind of gray cubicles and in rows and rows and rows, and it's sort of like this chicken farm of workers. And that doesn't feel like real life anymore. People are working in the kitchen here on their laptops, or they're going to go and sit on a sofa and take a call, or break out and sit outside on the benches because it's a nice sunny day today. Whatever sort of feels right to them, then, then that can happen. And we're trying to make it as flexible and Sort of free-flowing as we can. I mean, culture for us was something that sort of to begin with happened by accident. We just recruited the people that were sort of within 3-meter radius of us, friends and family, whoever we could find that could do the job. And then as we started to bring new people and particularly kind of experienced people into the business, we knew we had a job to do to continue to stand out and be different. It's very easy for Jamie and I to be different because this is all we've ever known. So this is kind of our identity. But to bring in somebody that's perhaps worked at a big Unilever or another food corporation before, to make sure they sort of bring that good experience but not the bad habits that we're trying to compete against, has been really important. So setting that culture as a brand that stands for challenge and this mantra of better is possible. So the office, I think, brings that to life. It's about an office that doesn't look like an office. As I said, we're a sweets brand that doesn't behave like a sweets brand, and deliberately making moves to do things that are just very different to others. So now that we've got this space, we have a guest speaker once a month. So there could be from another brand, another walk of life, somewhere sort of in the outside world that has an interesting story that we can learn from. We're having coffee-making workshops, we're having pizza-making things. There's lots of different different things that we've been doing around the space that I think just sort of broaden people's horizons and thinking. You don't just come to work to tick off your to-do list anymore. I think you're sort of coming to work to grow as a person and also fulfill some of those kind of wellness needs and sort of grow as a person as well as sort of professional. We work with a great friend of ours, a girl called Sophie, Sophie, and she's been an amazing help. She has a company called Set the Space, and she approached all the interior design. And that was quite important to us as well, that Sophie had never done an office space before. So she also, a little bit like when we started Candy Kittens, had this sort of superpower of naivety. She wasn't constrained by, this is how an office should work, because she'd never done it. So her experience was more in the sort of hospitality space. space, um, and residential as well. So yeah, worked very well.
Leanne ElliottI mean, as you said, it— you described it as a clubhouse, more of a clubhouse than an office. I mean, how do you still encourage people to work hard? Because it sounds pretty fun.
Ed WilliamsI think we've always had the approach of sort of trying to pass on as much autonomy and freedom to the team as we can. Um, we generally place a lot of trust in people, I would say, and everyone has their own responsibility and sort of individual targets that they're working towards. And as long as those are hit, you know, why would we care if someone is doing that, um, sat on the sofa, sat formally at a desk wearing a shirt and tie, or wearing their swimming shorts and a pair of flip-flops? I don't really— I don't think we should sort of really fascinate on the detail. I think it's important to think about the outcomes over how it's being done. And that for us So far, at least, sort of seems to be working. It's a really, really boring, tired cliché, I suppose, this work hard, play hard idea. But I really, really hope at Candy Kittens and the Sweet Factory as a whole, we can sort of foster an environment where we do knuckle down and get the work done. And there's quiet spaces for that. And there's sort of tech in the building that sort of helps with that as well in terms of the best video conferencing tools. etc. But we also are here to really celebrate those wins. So the fridge is always full of nice drinks. There's snacks here. We have a team lunch every Wednesday. We have a breakfast together on a Monday. So to really come together as a group and, and sort of celebrate and enjoy the hard work as much as we possibly can. So yeah, it's a balance. But I think so far we're managing to get it right. You can sort of drive yourself and everybody else completely crazy, I think, if you're trying to log time and track number of meetings and track days and weeks in the office and all of the kind of short-term metrics. For us, if you're delivering the goal, then that is okay. So we've had to sort of shift our mindset that way 100%. I mean, we've gone from such a huge cultural shift in the workplace from people having to be in every single day, 9 till 5, to now virtually having complete freedom to work how they want. It definitely takes some adjustment, but it is the new way of working. We have a very young team, and the emphasis is on them to, to do a good job and earn that trust. And I think that it's a two-way street. They seem to, to really, really sort of thrive from that once given the opportunity. So that's what we continue to do.
Al ElliottIt does seem clear that the office is aimed more at the millennial and Gen Z, or dare I say it, Gen Alpha, than it is Gen Xers like me. And that seems to have worked because, as Ed points out, the company has a very young team. But Leanne, ever the psychologist, wanted to know what it's like managing a young team like that and what they thought of this unique office idea. Let's get back to the interview.
Leanne ElliottWhat challenges have you experienced managing a young team? Again, millennials, Gen Z, talked about a lot in the world of work.
Ed WilliamsI think the difference is they're looking for so much more from work than than the things that perhaps even I was looking at when we started. Um, and it's actually probably more about the— what the business can offer around the edges than it is the traditional sort of salary and, and kind of benefit package. So money is, is oxygen for everybody, but I don't think it's that important to this age group in our experience. It's the other bits we put with it. So whether that is, uh, unlimited holiday policy, whether it is the weekly events and quarterly socials and things we do as a team, I think people want to come and be part of something. The other thing that I think is a real thread to what we're doing at Candy Kittens is that we're a very proud B Corp and we put a lot of energy into doing the right things as a business. And I think that that may be within our packaging or our sustainability commitments from a product basis. It may be within some of the sort of charitable partnerships that we run, or it may be within the elements of wellness and, and sort of well-being initiatives we offer the team. Those things all bring people together, and you can really get behind a business that you think is, is part of a bigger, a bigger mission. Um, and I think those causes are increasingly important to, to young people. So there's a combination of different things, I think. There's not sort of one silver bullet that makes this a great place to work for that community, but really sort of thinking beyond just paying somebody a good salary, I think, is super necessary now. We have to offer so much more than that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it sounds really great. And are you getting good feedback from employees about the Sweet Factory?
Ed WilliamsYeah, I mean, it's been incredible. We actually went through a round of feedback with the whole team in sort of one-to-one sessions last week because we do that on a quarterly basis to really sort of check in against how people are feeling. And the comments were just overwhelmingly positive. I think it's been such a life upgrade for the business, but everyone individually as well. So coming into work in the morning and being able to be in a space that is just a great inspiring environment, it's making me feel good. But I'm pleased to say I'm not the only one. Everyone so far, um, is enjoying it. I think the challenge now is how we keep it exciting beyond the first 6 weeks and make this the place that continues to inspire for the long term. I think for us it's the guests that come into the office and the people that walk through the door is probably the most interesting thing for us. We've— we also have, um, Jamie's podcast recording studio in the basement, um, so we're lucky enough to have some pretty cool high-profile names and faces that walk through the door. That, that's one thing that people sort of get a little bit excited about. You have a few sort of fans, uh, getting giddy around the office on occasion. But I think beyond that, it's about constantly looking at the space, constantly improving it, and, and applying this same tireless, uh, desire to improve and get better that we have applied to the businesses and applying that to the office space as well. It's sort of— it's never finished in our world.
Leanne ElliottOne complaint I hear from time to time from business leaders is, you know, I want to consult my staff, I want to ask their ideas, but I haven't got the time to ask everyone. How do you manage it? Is it just being in a startup, having a smaller environment? Does it require intention?
Ed WilliamsYeah, I think part of it, you know, on a practical level, is keeping the team small, and we work quite hard to do that. We have a sort of motto that we're trying to build a team of experts, and by that we mean keeping the team tight and small and making sure that every person in that chain is an expert in their own field. So we don't want loads and loads of hands to the pump. We want a smaller team of experts that can do a really great job individually. But equally, we do have some other steps. I mean, we do get together for a review every quarter in terms of our engagement culture and engagement to get people sort of an open forum to discuss the issues that they want to bring to the table. Some of those are sort of fed in anonymously before the session and then reviewed, and we bring in a third party to kind of run those sessions so that people don't feel that they're having necessarily to fire the most difficult questions directly at me or Jamie. And that has helped an awful lot. We also have a monthly review of the whole business, and that includes taking everybody through the P&L and where we are, sort of warts and all, with the financial performance. And I think that that honesty breeds honesty. So if we're being as honest as we can be with the team, then people are more willing to step forward and be, be honest with us. So it's difficult, and I think you're right that, you know, finding time for everybody, particularly people that perhaps don't naturally push themselves to the front, can be the challenge. But trying to create those moments in the diary where There's time for them to do that, and different routes. You know, some people are happy to speak up in the room, other people want to send you an anonymous message on Slack, um, some people want to put it in a form on, on email, whatever it might be. But yeah, trying to offer as many different ways as possible.
Leanne ElliottAfter this short break, we're going to hear about the unlimited holiday policy and whether it works, why Ed decided to transition into a B Corp, and what it's like working with somebody off of the telly. See you in a sec. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Ed WilliamsAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Fail. Host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Ed WilliamsSeamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Ed WilliamsUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that Encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Ed WilliamsIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Ed WilliamsDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Ed WilliamsKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Let's get stuck into the impact this office has actually had on the team.
Al ElliottYeah, we're going to read you on the interview where Leanne asks about odd behaviour, unlimited holidays, and asks Ed to explain what the hell a B Corp is.
Leanne ElliottHave you seen any changes in behavior amongst the team since you've been in this more creative, collaborative environment?
Ed WilliamsYeah, one of the funny ones that I keep saying is that I've noticed people are dressing a little bit smarter. So everybody comes to work now sort of with their, uh, you know, their best clothes on, and they've done the hair and makeup, or at least I have, um, and everyone's looking smart and polished. And maybe that's because we're in a nicer part of town, there's nicer places to go for lunch and dinner. around the corner, I don't know. But I think it has made us feel like we're a proper grown-up business. It's our own building, we have our own entrance, we don't share it with another company. And I think we just sort of feel like we're then therefore taking ourselves a little bit more seriously. We sort of mean business, and I think that that's definitely people holding their heads a little bit higher perhaps, and they're proud of it. One of the nicest moments for me is that people in the team are inviting their friends around for a drink in the office kitchen after work, or on a Friday afternoon, there's, there's people here having, having Friday evening drinks. And, and that, I think, if you, you know, if you've got a place that you work at that you're so proud you want to bring your friends and family over to see it, then I think that must be a sign that we're doing something right.
Leanne ElliottAnd you mentioned there that people bring around their friends, their family. Is it an open office? Is it— how does it Why? Is it not trade sweet secrets you need to protect?
Ed WilliamsI mean, there's actually not as many secrets as people might think. We've obviously got a couple of bits and pieces, and we've got some quiet meeting rooms here and there that you can kind of lock yourself away and, um, work on those secrets if you need to. But no, I mean, we're trying to keep it as open as possible. We've got friends of the brand, um, I suppose, uh, like-minded businesses in the food and drink space have been using the office for their kind of team meetings. Um, there's some really great companies in here. Some of our customers, I think Ocado were in here yesterday as an example, having their sort of team workshop for the quarter. So I think trying to make the space as energetic and full of life as possible is also part of it. We want it to be somewhere that people see as a cool place to hang out, I suppose. And if that is opening the doors and letting people come in, then all the better.
Leanne ElliottI have to ask you about the unlimited holiday allowance? Because that is something, as a, you know, as a perk that rolls around from time to time. How do you make it work?
Ed WilliamsYeah, it's a funny one actually, because it's something that we're reviewing at the moment. In real honesty, it works for some people who take it at face value and say, great, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take as much holidays as I want, fantastic, perfect. And they're probably the people that are best at managing their own time and are also you know, tend to be the people that are most on top of their workload and doing a great job as well, they are probably really benefiting from it. There's then maybe some junior people that have only recently joined the team who look at that and they're a little bit scared to push the boundaries too much and don't want to take too much holiday and actually then end up not taking as much as they would on a regular sort of holiday policy. So sort of penalized, if you like, by it. And there's people that probably sit somewhere in the middle. And I think that We're trying to fine-tune that and get it to a better place. But from our side, again, it's coming back to that trust and autonomy point. If we can let people manage their own time, um, if the job's being done, then you can take the holiday that you need. But it's not perfect, and we, we probably are gonna need to make some changes on that. But it's, uh, very much kind of a live one right now. I think, I think the intention at least behind it is good, and I'm constantly reminding people that unlimited means unlimited. You know, you manage it how you want to manage it, but it's, um, it's not always as perfect as I'd like it to be, but we're working on it.
Leanne ElliottTell me about B Corp. You said proud B Corp. Was that an intention when you founded the company?
Ed WilliamsNo, I mean, when we founded the business, I didn't even know what a B Corp was, to be honest. Um, I don't think a lot of people in the UK did, um, 10 years ago, but it's something that we started to look into. We, um, found through a number of different sort of friendly brands, uh, that it was becoming a bigger part of the UK sort of consumer goods scene and loved the sound of it. I think for us, we always felt like we were doing a good job, but B Corp was a certificate to kind of rubber stamp that and prove to ourselves first and foremost that we actually were, and then to give the consumers that sort of signal on pack or at the point of purchase, that we don't just say we're doing the right stuff. We've got these guys to sort of back it up and hold us to account. So for me, it's really, really important. And it's not— the most important part about B Corp, in my view, is that it's this never-ending road of improvement. You don't sort of earn the certification and then say, okay, feet up, job done, we've got that now. You're then constantly reevaluating to make sure that you're maintaining that score and hopefully improving it. So it's a really interesting one, and I'd really recommend anybody in any type of business, because it's not just consumer goods, it really is for everything, whether you're thinking about becoming a B Corp or thinking about starting a business or whatever stage you're at, I think it's a worthwhile exercise to work through the B Corp assessment to just get an understanding of where you are. And actually, it's kind of like a roadmap for building the perfect business. I think for us, the hardest part was that we were already 7 or 8 years in. So we'd already set up quite a lot of things that then needed to be sort of rejigged or reorganized in order to make them sort of work for the B Corp standard. And with that then comes a lot of information trawling and going back through some sort of historic documents. Documents and, um, various sort of legal bits to make sure that you could marry up those to the B Corp certification. And, and that's where I say if you were starting a business from scratch tomorrow, then the B Corp assessment would be a really great place to start because you could then build towards that and not have to sort of undo things unnecessarily later. Um, so it takes a long time. It took us probably 2 and a half years to certify. And I think that's also part of the challenge is staying focused and disciplined to get it over the line. But now that we have that in place, it really is sort of core to day-to-day decision-making at Candy Kittens. We reference it all the time and come back to the principles to make sure that we're really living up to it. More often, actually, when we're working through recruitment, we're seeing people that want to come and interview with us because we're a B Corp. They've read about it, they understand it, they'd like to work at a B Corp. So as an employee, it might mean that we, you know, you have enhanced benefits, enhanced rights as workers within a B Corp. You know that you're going to be treated in a fair and responsible way, which I think is kind of quite a nice feeling of safety and security. I think as a consumer, there are different interpretations, and obviously it depends on what product or kind of sector you're buying in. I think with consumer goods generally, you know that that business at the very least is trying to do their best they can in that space. So it might be within ingredients, it might be within packaging, it might be within the supply chain or the way that the product is brought into the UK. It's probably in reality a combination of all of those things. And I think you just know that you're buying from a business that's on a path to a better place. And I think we all would hope to be sort of striving for that, whether it's around sustainability or ethics, um, whatever the topic might be. It's that kind of thumbs up that, yeah, these guys, these are the good guys. The— for the Sweet Factory, the new office space, we were really proud to partner with a number of different great B Corps. Um, I've got some nice pink shelving behind me that was painted by, uh, the guys at Lick. Um, so Lick Paint are one of the sort of great examples of B Corps, and I think there's a number of B Corps of emerging now in the sort of home and interior design space. And again, you know, take Lick Paint as an example. The paints are completely natural, non-toxic. They were actually telling us when they came over to see the office that you could have a spoonful of their paint and eat that and nothing bad would happen to you. I didn't do that myself, but nice to know, I suppose. But, you know, again, we know then that we're surrounded by good quality, non-toxic chemicals and all that sort stuff. So it's— there's different reasons to go B Corp in different areas, but it generally does, like I say, mean that you're dealing with the good guys.
Al ElliottOkay, I've got a bit of a question. From a psychology point of view, what impact would things like unlimited holidays have on a workplace culture?
Leanne ElliottSo giving employees unlimited paid time off is a growing trend in the business world. On paper, it sounds ideal. Employees can take as many paid days off as they like, as they need, while companies offer a modern, flexible benefit that attracts talent and boosts employee satisfaction. I can hear our American listeners saying, only in Europe, at this point, and they might be right. A recent research paper by de Bloem and colleagues shows it's not that straightforward. The psychology behind unlimited holidays lies in self-determination theory, which suggests that people thrive when they have autonomy. So psychologically speaking, when employees control their time off, it can boost motivation, well-being, and job satisfaction. It also gives employees the opportunity to better manage their work-life balance, which can reduce stress and improve productivity. For many employees, unlimited holidays represents freedom and trust, empowering them to avoid burnout. However, the study also highlights potential downsides. Unspoken social pressures can prevent employees from fully using their time off, This is according to social exchange theory, which says employees may feel obliged to repay the flexibility by working harder or taking less leave. Some may worry about appearing less committed, leading them to take fewer days off than they would under a traditional system, which can then increase stress and burnout. The key to unlimited holidays— the success of this policy is company culture. If the place doesn't encourage guilt-free time off, the policy can backfire, leading to overwork. So without that supportive culture, it might actually cause more harm than good.
Al ElliottWell, I feel sufficiently schooled. Thank you for that, Lee. I'm gonna be a little bit more juicy and gossipy because I want to find out what it's like working with a celebrity. If you watch UK TV, then you'll have seen Jamie on shows like 8 Out of 10 Cats Does Countdown, Made in Chelsea, Strictly Come Dancing, Hollyoaks, Bake Off, and more. Yeah, he was. Yeah. Ed, on the other hand, seems to like to stay out of the spotlight instead, concentrating on strategy, operations. And he describes himself as the polar opposite of Jamie. So Leanne asked Ed how he manages this complex business relationship.
Leanne ElliottI want to ask you, if I can, about your dynamic as business partners with Jamie and having a business partner who is in the spotlight. I was chatting to Oliver Yonchev, whose business partner is Stephen Bartlett, and it's an interesting dynamic. How does it work for Yeah, it works well.
Ed WilliamsI mean, Jamie's great, um, and I would say that we are polar opposites. Um, Jamie describes it in his kind of very, uh, theatrical way as we're sort of 2 opposite sides of a triangle and we come up to meet in the top in the middle somewhere. And I think that it's probably not far from the truth. We, we have very, very different skill sets, um, and we bring a lot of difference to the table. And I think that's probably why it's worked. We're not 2 people that are trying to do the same thing. We kind of leave each other to our own devices a lot of the time, and that has worked. We've also, I suppose, had an agreement from the very beginning that day to day I run the business and I kind of have the final say and make the decisions. That obviously suits me because I'm a control freak apparently and like to get those decisions right. So I'm quite happy to do that. But it's It's not without its challenges, I suppose. Jamie has a very busy, hectic schedule. But the way— the view that we've always taken is that the more Jamie can do outside of the business, the more that creates the platform and leverage for us to grow the awareness of Candy Kittens. So those 2 things sort of go in sync, if you like. But it's been great, in all honesty. Jamie's a good business partner. He's very fun and engaging person to be around. He lights up the room that he walks into and really kind of brings that energy and enthusiasm to the team and to the customers that we work with. So yeah, he's a great partner. I would be lying if I said it was all of the brilliant marketing and ideas we've done on its own that's done it. Jamie's been a huge part of the business's success. But equally, there is a sort of double-edged sword with that. So whilst Jamie has a profile, that alone isn't going to sort of get you into Tesco. There's lots of people that have a profile and I think get— have the arrogance to think that that's enough. Part of the reason why we didn't have a sweet for 2 years is because we were so focused on getting to a place where we had a great product. We knew we could sell the first million bags of sweets just by slapping Jamie's name on it probably, but people then wouldn't come back and buy them again if they weren't great. So, you do always have to to sort of be a little bit paranoid about that, I think, and cautious with it. So we've built this business to stand on its own 2 feet with or without Jamie. And whilst he is around and has the profile and that is generating the engagement it has, then we'll absolutely make the most of it. But if that was to go away one day, we also like to think that we've sort of done the right things to mean we could also outlive him if needed.
Al ElliottSo let's just finish up with some pearls of wisdom from a man who's not only built a huge brand From nothing and taken on one of the largest companies in the confectionery world, but has seemingly built the craziest office in London.
Leanne ElliottWhat advice would you give to any other business owners that might be listening and want to create an office where their people want to be?
Ed WilliamsYeah, I mean, I would start thinking about where do your people like to work today? And if that is a coffee shop, if it's their living room at home or their breakfast table in the kitchen, wherever it is, I think trying to replicate an element of that in the office space is a good place to start. That's where we started and it so far sort of seems to be working. I think the idea of an old office is completely ancient and sort of for the past, but offices themselves and people working together in one building, that certainly hasn't gone away at our experience. It's about making sure that the office space is new and interesting and sort of fit for modern times. But we have really opened the doors to where we would like to be and sort of set a solid foundation. And now what we have to do is make sure we don't stray too far from that path. So we've got to really keep ourselves disciplined. I'll give you an example that the McDonald's I'm Lovin' It campaign has been around for, I think, something like 15 years. And I'm sure somebody walks into McDonald's marketing team meetings every single week and says, come on guys, we need a new campaign now. We need something new and more interesting. But actually they've just stuck to that and kept doing it, kept doing it, kept doing it. And this sort of broken record technique is where we need to be, and we need to be pushing on the same doors and go deeper and further within what we've already started. So it's not, I'm afraid, rocket science or particularly particularly exciting, but it is about doing more of the same. And if we can capture more of the UK market, we would be very, very pleased with ourselves.
Leanne ElliottAnd what would you say to anyone listening who has half an idea and a dream?
Ed WilliamsGo for it. I mean, what have you got to lose? Again, you know, that is a bit of a cliché, I'm afraid, but actually stick it out there and push for it. Ask questions, speak to people. You would be amazed, I think, at how many people are willing to help you. if you ask the question. And I feel there's particularly maybe a bit of a UK problem is we're terrible at sharing our ideas and terrible at asking for help. So we often go to different events across the pond in the US and those guys love to talk to you about their idea. And every person that has an idea in the US is convinced that their idea is the best idea that's ever, ever been in my experience. And that may be some truth in that, there may not be. But the The point is that they're very happy to talk about it and share it. And I think that we're sort of so closed and sort of paranoid in the UK that we don't— we stop ourselves getting it out there before it's even started. So yeah, I would just start talking to people about it immediately. We have a team of varying levels of experience, but one thing that we always make very, very clear is that everybody's opinion counts. And whether that is from the undergraduate placements that we have with us from their university placements through to the directors that sit on our board. We're very, very keen on day one that anyone joins us that, look, we really want to hear all of your opinions. We want you to challenge, we want you to ask questions. And I think then we just sort of teach that by doing it. We sit in on meetings and ask questions. We ask people what their opinions are, what they would do if it was their choice. And actually, it's amazing how quickly that can start to develop in people. Um, we've had a placement student that's just been with us for 12 months and has gone back to university, and her sort of comments on the final day with me was she couldn't believe how much responsibility she was given versus her peers that were working elsewhere, and how often she'd been asked what she thought of a topic that felt completely irrelevant to the role she was doing, far outside of the things she was working on, and then went on to actually you know, her, her idea or suggestion was the thing that we went with. So everybody really does have an opportunity to, to chip in and be part of it, um, and I think people see that quite quickly.
Leanne ElliottI've got a few quick fires for you before I go that I like to ask the business owners, entrepreneurs that I speak to. Do you have a favourite book?
Ed WilliamsUh, Shoe Dog by Phil Knight, the Nike story, which you probably had before, but yeah, it's a very, very good one. I couldn't put that down as soon as I I started reading it.
Leanne ElliottAnd I have to ask, your favourite sweet? Chocolate?
Ed WilliamsUh, sour watermelon Candy Kittens for me. It's a no-brainer.
Leanne ElliottBang on brand. And your favourite place to be?
Ed WilliamsUm, probably Wales. I grew up in a place called Caerphilly, just outside of Cardiff, and the more I can get back to Wales, the better. Unfortunately, the office is a little bit too far for me to live there right now, but, um, I'm working my way back slowly.
Leanne ElliottIf there's one key takeaway of somebody listening to this episode, this conversation What do you want it to be?
Ed WilliamsUm, I think, I think the key takeaway for me would be to really put some deliberate time and energy into how you're building the team and thinking about their time in the office. It's something that's sort of come to us quite late, and right now, as I'm sat in this new building and sort of reaping the rewards of a team that are super engaged and excited to come through the door every morning, um, I personally just wish we'd done it 5 years earlier. So I would really put more energy and time into that if I could rewind the clock. And anyone that's thinking about it, don't hesitate.
Leanne ElliottThat is Ed Williams, co-founder and CEO of Candy Kittens and the Sweet Factory office. I can't wait for the next time we're in London. I am, I am there. I'm such a nice guy. Um, do go and say hi on socials. We'll leave all the links. And go and buy some Candy Kittens sweets. Because we live abroad, I haven't had the pleasure yet, But Ed's team were kind enough to send us some sweets, but they suddenly arrived the day after we left our brother-in-law's in the UK. My brother-in-law's, Al's brother, Andy. I did say to tuck in, so maybe we'll get some at Christmas, maybe we won't. Either way, I'll go and find them in the supermarket. I hear, according to Ed, the watermelon are the best ones.
Al ElliottAnd if you do like IPA beer, then they've just partnered with BrewDog to make a beer that tastes a bit of Eton Mess, which is one of their types of sweets. I'll be honest, I think I'd rather be kicked in the testicles than drink that, but I'm sure it's for— I'm sure a lot of people will think that's a great thing. Not a fan of IPA, not a fan of sweet things, but anyway.
Leanne ElliottSo if you want to find out more about Ed Williams, Candy Kittens, or indeed just make it known to Ed that Al does not like his beer, this is how to find him.
Ed WilliamsYou can find us on, uh, candykittens.co.uk, um, or through our Instagram. Um, and through that Instagram, we also feature the team, Jamie, and my story, um, as the brand develops. So perhaps the Instagram Candy Kittens is the best place to find us.
Leanne ElliottA reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes like today is definitely right up your street.
Al ElliottAnd if you like to keep abreast of the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, then you'll like Tuesdays too, where we bring you the weekly news roundup. Our September segment called New Voices and of course—
Leanne ElliottFresh Voices.
Al ElliottFresh Voices, I'm sorry. So smooth, so smooth. Professional. See, Jamie wouldn't do this on his podcast. Anyway, I was saying the September segment called Fresh Voices, and of course our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leah, anything else to add before we go?
Leanne ElliottJust the usual. If you like this episode, give it a little rating, leave it a review, subscribe, go and follow us on the socials. Come connect with Alan and I on LinkedIn. Go and tell Ed how much you love his sweets and Jamie how great his podcast is. We will be back next Tuesday with another episode of This Week in Work.
Al ElliottAll the links are in the show notes. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye. It's unlike any office you've ever seen, and it's unlike Any office you've ever seen. I don't know why I said it like that.
Leanne ElliottWe love exploring.
Al ElliottWell, there you go. Oh, oh, how the worm has turned, or whatever the word is.
Leanne ElliottThe worm has turned? The worm is rolling in its grave. Design Experts, not the show, it's a week.
Al ElliottI need you to look at this, look at the screen.
Leanne ElliottI don't like that. I might need another one after this.
Al ElliottAnother cup of tea?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. I feel like I rushed that one.
Al ElliottYeah, you can't rush your tea. Any more liquids? Shot vodka or— no, you do right, otherwise you'll, you'll do mouth clicks.
Leanne ElliottY'all, y'all, y'all, y'all.
Al ElliottIt's a struggle today, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottUh, right. Concentrate. You can do it.
Al ElliottWe love.