Episode 149 · 28 November 2024 · 52:25
The Psychology of what we wear at work, with Angela Foster
Featuring Angela Foster
The Psychology of what we wear at work, with Angela Foster
0:000:00
Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.
Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free
Chapters & timestamps
Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.
Intro and welcome to Angela Foster
Does what we wear really matter? The science of enclothed cognition
Dressing to impress vs. dressing to be comfortable
interview#dress code#comfort#impression
The psychology of workplace attire and perceptions
Is it easier for men to dress to impress?
interview#gender#dress code#men
Should leaders define a dress code?
interview#leadership#dress code#policy
Absolute no-nos in professional dress codes
Is there a 'right time' to invest in your style?
interview#age#style#investment
The SPARK method: body shape and personal brand style
Show notes
The Psychology of What We Wear at Work — with Angela Foster
Guest: Angela Foster — fashion and beauty industry expert with over 20 years of executive experience, founder of Angela Style Coach, and creator of the SPARK method.
What we wear to work says more than we think — and it starts working before we say a single word.
Angela joins Al and Leanne to unpack the psychology behind our wardrobes, from the science of enclothed cognition — how clothing shapes our confidence, cognition, and how others perceive us — to why first impressions form in seconds and stick for far longer.
They explore how professional attire influences leadership perceptions, how to craft a signature look that's authentically you, and how employers can write dress codes that balance inclusivity, professionalism, and personal style. Plus, Angela shares her five-step SPARK method for building a versatile wardrobe without buying a single new thing.
Top 3 Takeaways
First impressions are formed in seconds — and attire does a lot of the talking. Research shows clothing affects not only how others perceive us but how we perceive ourselves. It's not vanity; it's cognition.
Create a signature look. A style that reflects your personality and professional brand makes you memorable — and it doesn't require buying more clothes. Strategy first, shopping second.
Dress codes need clarity, not guesswork. The more clearly employers lay out expectations — ideally during interviews or onboarding — the fairer and more inclusive the workplace feels.
More From Angela Foster
- Take Angela's Body Shape Quiz to discover the styles and silhouettes that suit you best: AngelaFoster.co/Leanne
- Website: Angela Style Coach
- LinkedIn: Angela Foster
- Instagram: @AngelaStyleCoach
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Angela FosterThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Angela FosterNice.
Angela FosterCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.
Angela FosterMy name's Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Angela FosterWelcome, welcome. Hello to you, especially if you're brand new here.
Angela FosterYou.
Angela FosterYes, you we're talking to. Get a cup of tea, um, Yorkshire Tea if you're in the UK, it's the only type of tea, and a Jaffa Cake and take a load off. And if you've listened before, then welcome back. You know the score, but just give me 8 seconds to explain to the newbies How this pod works, right? Every Tuesday we bring you a weekly fix of workplace news, spicy takes from our expert panel, and our famous workplace surgery where I put your questions to the lovely Leanne. And every Thursday, like today, we sit down with someone who's an expert in the workplace and ask them the questions that most podcasters are afraid to.
Leanne ElliottAnd, and today we do have said guests, and that I did ask some questions that others might be afraid to. Um, today we are thrilled to welcome Angela Foster. Foster, a true expert in the fashion and beauty industry with over 2 decades of executive experience. Angela is on a mission to empower high-achieving petite women to exude confidence through wardrobes that reflect their unique style, body shape, and professional goals. Now, before we dive into our conversation, let's address why this topic is important. You might be thinking, Leanna, this is a business podcast, what are we talking about? Let me explain. Research from Virginia Commonwealth University shows that dress for success isn't just a cliché, it is backed by science. Studies reveal that how we dress at work influences how colleagues perceive our competence and warmth, which directly impacts their evaluation of our performance and their willingness to support us. Clothing choices affect workplace dynamics much more than we realize. Learning to navigate these dynamics can help us present ourselves in ways that align with our goals and avoid unfair stereotypes. Additionally, first impressions count. Within the first 7 seconds, apparently, of a meeting somebody new, we have given them already a solid impression of who we are. And some research suggests it's actually only a 10th of a second to start determining traits like trustworthiness. Attire will play a role in influencing these first impressions. You might also be thinking, Leanne, what I worry is about me. Not anyone else, thank you very much. Well, you're right, um, it is very much. And this is a concept called enclosed cognition and suggests that dressing in formal attire can enhance your cognitive function and productivity. So whether it's adapting to remote work norms, balancing industry expectations, or breaking down gender biases in clothing, the choices we make every day can have profound professional and personal impacts. Angela's SPARK method has transformed how her clients, from keynote speakers to boardroom leaders, approach their personal and professional wardrobes. Whether it's aligning personal style with business branding, creating a closet that works seamlessly for both casual and formal settings, or crafting a signature look that projects authority and confidence, Angela's approach goes beyond fashion. It's about showing up as your best self.
Angela FosterTalking of showing up as your best self, Angela, if you're watching this on YouTube, I've put a jacket on. I never wear a jacket. I put it on for you because I thought I better dress up right. At the end of this episode, you're going to have the answer to these 3 key questions. Number 1, do people at work judge us on what we wear, and should we actually care? Well, I think we already know the answer to that is slightly yes, and also possibly yes. Number 2, should employers define a dress code, and if so, how do we do it properly? And number 3, how do I remain stylish but stand out from the crowd so people remember us?
Leanne ElliottWe'll also be asking that million-pound question, what is dressy cash?
Angela FosterI've never heard that term in my entire life. Anyway, without any further ado, let's join Leanne and Angela as they start by discussing the definition of petiteism. and why clothes influence how we feel at work.
Angela FosterWell, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I can't imagine you are looking forward to this any more than I am, 'cause I'm a huge fan. Um, I'm Angela Foster. I am a style coach for petite executives, C-suites, and entrepreneurial women.
Leanne ElliottCan I ask, what is the definition of petite?
Angela FosterUm, depending upon who you ask, it's either 5'4 or 5'3 and under, which is 44% of the world population. While it's easy for us to feel Like we're a small segment that designers and brands don't pay attention to. We're a pretty mighty bunch.
Leanne ElliottI'm 5'3 and 3/4, so I can push 5'4 if I want to, I guess. But, but I'll, I'll take, take some little, like, light mick out of me all the time for being so small. I need a step to reach the cupboards and things like that. But there's 44%. We should gather, create some kind of movement.
Angela FosterYes, that's exactly right. I'm— all of my new people, I'm like, welcome to the revolution. We're going to change the world.
Leanne ElliottAngela, I wanna, I wanna get straight into it in In terms of fashion, it's one of those things that I think, as a woman, I think about. I can't say I'm a fashionista in any way, but I'm conscious of the clothes I wear and how I present myself, particularly in professional situations. I mean, from your experience with clients, how does what we wear influence our mood and our confidence at work?
Angela FosterOh my gosh, I'm so glad that you asked this. There was actually a study done, and I think it was at Northwestern University, and it was probably like 2010, 2012, something like that. And that's exactly what they studied, was the effect of our clothes on our mood, our performance, and all of that. And it came out that people who had a lab coat on and were told that it was a doctor's lab coat had improved mental ability, improved creativity, improved performance. They did better on mind games.
Angela FosterWow.
Angela FosterAnd like, you know, like mind-bender games, that type of thing. So it really affects a lot on not only our performance, but then also, especially when it comes to women, our confidence. Because we've all seen, you know, we've all been in business situations where 2 women walk in the room and one of them is like oozing over with confidence and you're attracted to her. You want to get, you know, like introduce yourself, get to know her, find out what she does and all of that. And then somebody else who has less confidence and kind of like blends into the background, doesn't put herself out there, and all of that. So it can be in, you know, a social situation, but you also want to think about like, what does that look like in the work situation? And if you're the one that doesn't feel confident to put yourself out there, then I mean, that's obviously going to have ramifications on, you know, promotion abilities and getting different jobs and that type of thing. So I call it the 7-Eleven rule. What it is is that strangers, make 11 decisions about us in 7 seconds of meeting us. So when it comes to, you know, like meeting with a new salesperson, meeting with, you know, a new podcast host, meeting with anybody, like whether we realize it or not, you made 11 decisions about me and whether I was going to be any fun, whether I was competent, whether it was like going to be a great interview or not a great interview before I even said, hey, Leanne, I'm Angela.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Angela FosterDo you know what I mean? That's how quick it happens, and that's how powerful it is. So it has so many ramifications besides just what other people think about us, but just how we show up. One of the things that team members like to know about their leaders is that they're consistent versus being friendly and empathetic and all of that. They like a consistent leader that they know what to expect from them. When you are the leader and you're setting the bar for, this is how my team shows up, this is how we come to work, this is how we present ourselves in front of clients, this is all of that, that consistency is key, not only in how we look, but in how we treat our teams and that type of thing. So, when we want to be great leaders, knowing, setting the expectation, living up to that expectation is incredibly important. And I do a workshop that's talking about dressing your brand and that type of thing, mostly for managers and team leaders who want to make sure their team feels like they're cohesive and they're showing up the way that the team leader wants them to. And that whole thing of like, this is the message that we're sending to everybody who meets us, is incredibly important, especially in higher value situations. You might buy, I don't know, a pair of pants from somebody who doesn't look amazing, but you're not going to spend $100,000 with somebody who looks awful and a train wreck.
Angela FosterRight.
Angela FosterI mean, but it's the truth, right? Like, when there's a lot of money on the line, the way somebody shows up is incredibly important.
Leanne ElliottAnd can it go the other way? Because I'm thinking, you know, of like that, that kind of very put together, a bit slimy salesperson who's so suited and booted to the point it's a bit off-putting. Can it swing the other way?
Angela FosterI love that. No, I absolutely love that. And I think that's one of the things with I mean, and it started way before the pandemic. Do you know what I mean? Like, people were getting more relaxed, not only in their appearance at home, but also absolutely at their appearance at work. So then we went through this whole work from home, and then it was a hybrid and all of that. So that has really changed the way people show up. And I think that's one of the things that's making it so tough, especially for women, because guys have so many fewer options when it comes to clothes and all of that. But for women, we have a lot of options, right? Like suits or pants, the whole thing.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Angela FosterI think that's one of the things that where it used to be very defined. We'd have our weekend wear and we'd have our work clothes. And those were, it was very clear. Like, I don't know about you, but I had 2 sections in my closet. And if it was Monday through Friday, I knew exactly what I was going to grab. If it was the weekend, I went to the other side. That's one of the things that's making it so challenging for women right now, right? Because you have, you don't just have those 2 buckets anymore. You have the work from home bucket where I'm going to be on video, or you have the casual Friday, which has turned into super duper casual Friday. Now though, it feels like I feel like women are getting tired of that. They're tired of the yoga pants, they're tired of the shapeless clothes and all of that. And there's really been, at least with my clients, there's been a big resurgence for wanting to have fun with clothes again. You know what I mean? And yes, to your point about the sleazy salesman, car salesman, it looks different than it used to, right?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Angela FosterThere's still that, I'm not going to corset myself into something super uncomfortable. I still appreciate that comfort, but I want to step it up a little bit and I want I want to let people know that I did put an effort into the way that I look and the way I show up. Because there's also that thing where if you're from the customer standpoint and you see somebody and you don't feel like they put a lot of effort into it, there is a subliminal message that says, well, if they're not going to put effort into how they showed up to meet me, how much effort are they going to put into my project, my job, whatever I'm hiring them to do?
Angela FosterYeah.
Angela FosterThere's that, that we always have to keep in mind.
Leanne ElliottI can hear some voices from women in my head going, what are you talking about? Doesn't matter what you wear. It doesn't matter what you look like. Hourglass figures, what rubbish. It's all about confidence. And you know what, if there's anyone out there listening going, this is making me feel uncomfortable, this feels like we're objectifying women's bodies in the workplace, what do you say to that?
Angela FosterI love that. And I would love to say that everybody you meet is such an elevated— in such an elevated mental state that they're not judging us. But we know that they're 100% judging us. It doesn't matter. They're not trying to be mean. They're not trying to come up with reasons to hate us or think— you know what? They're not. It's just human nature. And at this point, I only can accomplish so many things, and changing human nature at this point in my life is probably not one of them. So we can absolutely say it's not fair. You should appreciate me because of my big fat brain and how brilliant I am and all of that. And that's amazing. And if you want to, that's great. When you're talking about growing your career or building your business and all of that, we have to deal with reality. And at this point in our evolution, that's reality. So yes. And to your point, the other thing, objectifying. So, I mean, I guess you could look at it like when you feel confident in your outfit and you're accentuating your favorite feature, are you objectifying yourself? I mean, I've never thought about it like that before, but I do know how I show up when I love my outfit. And I also know how I show up when my makeup's a mess, my hair's, well, frizzy, and all of that. And it's 2 different people. Do you know what I mean? It's distracting when I don't feel good. And I don't think I'm the only one that's like that.
Leanne ElliottThe psychology behind what we wear to work is really interesting. And I know I gave you a bit of a flavor. in the introduction. But let's dive a little bit deeper, shall we? It's not just about looking good. It's about how clothes influence both how we feel and how others see us. And research backs this up with concepts, as I mentioned, like enclothed cognition, which shows that what we wear can actually change the way we think. For example, wearing formal clothing can boost abstract thinking and focus, making us feel sharper and more professional. It's like dressing the part helps us step into the role mentally. Bit, bit like you and your jacket, Al. But it's not just about how you feel, it's also about how others perceive us. Studies have shown that formal attire is often linked to perceptions of competence, reliability, and trustworthiness. Think about doctors in white coats, you know, they're, they're not just wearing them for tradition. Those coats signal professionalism and authority, and patients instinctively trust them more. The same applies in business or service settings where uniforms or professional outfits can create a strong first impression. reinforce brand identity, and even improve customer satisfaction, according to some of the research. There is, of course, a flip side, as there is to everything. Clothing can also reinforce stereotypes and biases. For example, women are often unfairly judged more harshly for their attire. I seem to remember a workplace surgery question last week that touched unfairly on what somebody was wearing outside of work.
Angela FosterNone of their business was the TLDR.
Leanne ElliottNone of their business. But research shows that women in revealing clothing are perceived as less competent even when their work is flawless. Similarly, people wearing cultural or religious attire might face biases that influence workplace interactions or customer perceptions. These biases really do highlight the need for workplaces to create inclusive environments where attire doesn't become a barrier to equal treatment.
Angela FosterWell said, Lee. After this very short break, we're going to find out if it's easier for men to dress to impress. We'll also find out whether managers should define a dress code And Leanne gets a mini makeover session from the style guru Angela. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Angela FosterWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Angela FosterAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Angela FosterSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Angela FosterIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Angela FosterI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Angela FosterYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Leanne ElliottI'll cut that out.
Angela FosterKeep that in. Welcome back. I have a feeling I'm about to get schooled here, but I always felt that it was easier for women to dress for work because for— as, as a woman, then you've got more options than we have. We tend to have like basically shirt, suit, pants, trousers. That's it. There's lots of things you can wear. It feels like women can express themselves a tiny bit more in clothes at work. But let's find out what Angela thinks about this.
Leanne ElliottI want to talk about different demographics. We focused on women so far. I mean, how do— and I know you work primarily with women, but how do men experience workplace dress and the expectations attached to that? Is it different?
Angela FosterIt is a little bit. In fact, there was a study that was done, and I think it was from one of those career website things, but it It said that women who were perceived as being well-dressed and put together made 12% more money than their counterparts who were not perceived the same way. For men, and this is what I thought was surprising, in answer to your question, what I thought was surprising for men, it was even worse. It was like the men who were perceived as put together, they make 15 to 17% more money. So we talk about the pay inequality and all of that, but if you're a guy I would be worried about pay inequality. Like, is that guy, because he has like his shirt is pressed, is he making 17% more than me? Do you know what I mean? Like, that would be— I would have a question about that. But the thing about it was, is it wasn't like the people that they did that were super stylish and always looked like glamorous Instagram influencers. It wasn't like that at all. It was really very simple. Like, their clothes fit well, they were tailored, their hair was clean. For women, they had a minimal amount of makeup on. It wasn't like they were asking us to jump through hoops for this, right? It was actually very easy to do. So, I mean, and for guys, I think the tailoring and the pressing are even more important because they do have so many fewer options than we do. So, if they come in with a wrinkled shirt and grubby jeans, you're like, really? Come on now. You couldn't throw it in the dryer first?
Leanne ElliottI can't believe that, really, that pay difference just in terms of how you— wow.
Angela FosterI know. There is another fun thing, and this kind of goes back to the signature, but then it also talks about guys too. And there was a— it always makes me think of Mark Zuckerberg when I talk about it, but it's called the red sneaker effect. And there was 2 different situations, and I'm gonna probably smush them into one big situation, but there were like 10 or 12 guys and they were at a black tie event. And they were clearly a group, but one of the guys had a red bow tie on instead of the black bow tie that everybody else in his group had on. And then they asked a panel of people, who's the guy that's in charge? Who's the boss, the owner, whatever? And they all said universally, the guy with the red bow tie on. So it goes back to when you— it doesn't have to be huge. Like the signature, like we were talking about, it doesn't have to be huge. It can be something very subtle. And then there was— some other guy who did actually wear red sneakers. And you know what I mean? And it proved the same point that when you do just something slightly different, the perception of your standing in a group or in a company or whatever is elevated in, in the viewer's mind.
Angela FosterOkay, let's go into this thorny subject. As a leader or business owner or manager, should I be defining a dress code? It kind of feels like I'm telling people how to dress for work, and that doesn't feel like a great idea.
Angela FosterI think this is so fascinating for so many reasons. So, because I work with business owners and people who have teams and all of that, and one of the things that puts them into an incredibly difficult situation, and when we're on the initial call and we're talking about, like, we're going to teach an image workshop for your team, what does that look like, blah, blah, blah. And I say to them, Talk to me about your written dress code policy. 2 things happen. Number one, it's from a bajillion years ago and it hasn't been updated since you had to wear hose and heels. That's how old it is. Or they don't have anything at all written down. So apparently, I don't know, but employees are just supposed to magically read your mind as to how you want them to show up. Which is really unfair because, you know what I mean? Then all you have to do is look at other people and say, well, I hope I'm getting this right. Well, again, it goes back to you want your boss to be consistent and you want to know what to expect. Well, that's putting them into an incredibly unfair position. The whole professional thing, I think when we're talking about different ethnicities, different backgrounds, different cultures, and all of that, I There's different feelings on the word professional, right? Some people don't have a thought about it. Some people, it's definitely a trigger. And specifically, you don't look professional. Well, that is not any kind of coaching. And you would know this better than I, being an HR expert. But like, not professional? I'm sorry, you're going to have to be specific with me on that. Like, what does that look like?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Angela FosterAnd the more you can lay it out for your team, well, ideally during the interview process or during the onboarding and all of that, you're doing everybody a favor. Because nobody, there's not a boss, an owner anywhere on this planet that wants to have a dress code conversation. It's the most uncomfortable. Well, there's probably more uncomfortable, but it's super uncomfortable to have to talk to somebody about what they're wearing, how they show up, and all of that. So do yourself a favor, do your team a favor, lay it out. Be very clear. I feel like the interview, like towards the end of the interview process, is the best place because if there is an issue or, you know, that, that's going to be a problem for your potential new hire, it's only fair to let them know before they say yes.
Leanne ElliottAre there any kind of absolute no-nos in terms of a quote-unquote professional dress code? Anything you're like, that's, that's, that's, that's a no, that's a no, that's no, that's no?
Angela FosterThere's so many different environments. There's so many different companies and organizations and all of that. I would love to say anything goes, just depends on the environment, depends on the culture, depends on— I do feel though that kind of goes back to the objectifying women thing. As women, we do need to think about who is our customer, whether it's our boss or whether it's an actual customer, and think about If I would wear it to the club, if the skirt's so short, if the neckline is so low that I would wear it to a club or I'd wear it out on a date with my guy, is it appropriate for work? And is it really sending the message about you and your work product that you want it to? It's funny because so— and this is actually a career coach and we're connected on LinkedIn and she'll do these videos where— and I know it's like, oh, I just got done at the gym. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so lovely. I haven't seen the inside of a gym in 10 years. But so I know that like, like the sports bra thing is designed to make it look like, like, hey, I'm active, I'm on top of it, blah, blah, blah. The boobage though, I just, you know, and then she brags about how much she charges and I just think it's just hard for me to find that real. Like, I don't want to say it's not true. I just have a hard time believing that people are going to spend that much money when you come like sweaty, hot with like so much going on right here.
Angela FosterYeah.
Angela FosterSo, but that's me and my personal judgment. Again, it goes back to not having something written down, not having specific expectations. That whole dressy casual, business casual, all those buzzwords that people have pulled out, whoever the leader is, they need to be very specific as to what that means. Does that mean ripped up jeans? Does it mean no denim, only khakis? Does it mean You know, because it can mean a bajillion different things. So do everybody in your atmosphere a favor and be specific about it. Because you and I both know, like, we work with different— a lot of different— in a lot of different situations with different organizations. Business casual does not mean the same thing to everybody. So please do your team a favor and be clear.
Angela FosterI'm not Angela's target market, but she's definitely got me thinking about what I wear, especially when we do these episodes as videos. In fact, I think I tend to wear the same 3 things apart from today where I've put this, uh, put this jacket on for, uh, for Angela. But I wouldn't know where to start with shaking these things up. We're going to rejoin the interview where Leanne and Angela talk about fashion overwhelm, plus Leanne gets this freestyling session from Angela. Oh, and somehow Leanne managed to turn the conversation around to her boobs.
Leanne ElliottIf somebody is listening much like me now and going, huh, I've never really thought about this before, and I probably need to think about what I wear as, as the brand that I'm presenting to the world, Where do I start with that?
Angela FosterI love that. I love that. And it is, it can be really overwhelming, right? There was something I read somewhere like the average woman has 163 things in her closet. So the first thing is, is that a lack of clothes, despite the fact that one of the things I hear all the time is, I have nothing to wear, despite that, we have too much to wear. You know what I mean? And sometimes it's you walk in there, you walk into your closet, and it's so overwhelming that you don't even know where to start. So one of the things, and this is, this is a trend. I said I can't think of anything when you said that, but this is a trend that I have noticed. Women really are focusing on less but better quality, better choices, better, um, you know, like more flattering to their specific body shape and that type of thing. I don't feel like there's the I want to buy everything type of mentality right now. It really is more of a I want it to be right.
Angela FosterYeah.
Angela FosterType of thing. But in answer to your question, where do you start? This is such a great question. And you can take it from a couple different standpoints. So if you're looking at, this is my personal brand, this is how I'm showing up to work, what is it that you want everybody else— what you want their perception to be of you? And with my clients, I encourage them to come up with 3 adjectives. And usually they'll come up with things like, oh, I want to look trustworthy, or I want to look professional, or whatever.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Angela FosterBut they don't— those words don't really say anything, right? Like, you want to dig a little bit deeper into that. If you work in the art department, you're going to have a much more creative vibe than somebody who works in finance or in accounting or that type of thing. So, you really want to dig deeper into those words. And then what we do is we take those words and we translate that into a visual style. So, whether that looks like tailored pants And a feminine blouse, or whether that looks like a suit because that's the requirement of where you're at. But really think about if somebody said, Leanne, what do you think about Leanne? And I said 3 things, what would those 3 words, what would you want those 3 words to be? What my clients do is they create a Pinterest board and they usually keep it secret because it's not something that they want. It's just between, like we share it back and forth. They create a Pinterest board for each of those words. And then they start pinning things to each of the boards that mean that. So if it's going to be like, I want it to be tailored and minimalist, or I want it to be colorful and artsy, or whatever the words happen to be, they pin a few things to that board. I encourage them to start with 5. That is usually enough for the Pinterest algorithm to pick up on what they're doing, and then all of a sudden you're flooded with more more ideas, more graphics, more images along those lines. And then when they're done, they usually have between, oh, 25 to 35 of those images pinned to each of those words. You would be amazed. It happens every time, and I'm still amazed when we go through their board together, the commonality of their images. It just, it It pops out at you and you're like, oh, look at this. This is like that you like cropped blazers. Okay. I mean, because almost every image has a cropped blazer in it. So even those women who think, oh, I don't have a style, I don't really know what it is, they really do. They just haven't put it into words or to pictures yet. But once we look at those boards, we're like, oh my gosh, look at this. So you have some very definitive things about what you want your personal style to be. And then, I mean, they honestly, they do all the work.
Angela FosterYeah.
Angela FosterI mean, I lead them in the right direction, but the clients do all the work. And then shopping becomes super easy because we know what do you have, what do you not have, what gaps do we need to fill in? Easy peasy.
Leanne ElliottDo your clients tend to come to you at a particular age? The reason I ask, I'm about to turn 40 in about a month's time, and I'm concerned as I get older of dressing appropriately, but not like an old person because I don't feel old. But at the same time, I feel there's maybe a— Is there a point where I need to start elevating my style, perhaps? Is that a thing, or is it really just for every individual?
Angela FosterWow, there was so much goodness there. I don't want to forget a thing. Okay, so is there a time where clients usually come to me? 100%. It's usually when, if they're entrepreneurs, it's usually when they're ready to uplevel their business. They're going to have more visibility opportunities. They're going to have more speaking engagements. They just wrote a book, that type of thing. So visibility is a deal, and they want to feel confident. In whatever that looks like. The other thing is, is usually when there's big life changes. I just had a baby and now I don't recognize my body and I don't know how to dress for it anymore. I'm going through menopause and I don't know what is going on with my body and nothing fits and all of that. So normally it's one of those things that triggers it. It can also— I have several, several clients who get a promotion to a director or a C-suite position and they feel like they need to level up their image because they're leading a bigger more important team now. So it's usually something along those lines. And really, you think about it, and I don't know about you, but nobody ever taught me how to shop. My mom and I would go shopping, but I mean, she was shooting in the dark as much as I was. We were just picking out things, trying things on. Sometimes it was successful, sometimes it wasn't. We had a whole bunch of clothes in the closet, but not necessarily pulled together outfits. Well, And it's not her fault. I totally don't blame her. When she listens, I don't want her to think I'm blaming. But nobody ever teaches us how to get dressed for our body shape. And then as women, your body's going to change. So then you need to know what to do when that happens so you don't freak out and start blaming yourself or blaming your body and all of that. So there's that. Then you made a comment about you're going to turn 40. Happy early birthday, by the way. And then age appropriate. So one of the things that helps women with the whole age appropriate thing, and you look at women now, and I'm 52, and I feel like when I was 20, I heard 52 and I was like, oh my God, you might as well just like pack it in. You're done. Right? But 50 looks a lot different today. I think I'm probably biased, but 50 looks a lot different today than it did 30 years ago. So the whole like age appropriate thing, I don't know. I have a kind of a love-hate relationship with it. We've all seen those girls who are like, we don't know what age appropriate is, but we know that's not it, right? Like, we're like, oh gosh. But I think when you learn how to dress for the body that you have today, I mean, like, my boobs are not where they were at when I was 20, right? So obviously, like, things I wear on top are not going to be as revealing or as tight and all of that as it was 30 years ago. But when you dress for the body you have, then it kind of takes care of the whole age appropriate thing.
Leanne ElliottYeah. As you say, you said dress for the body you have. And I wonder if a lot of, and myself included, spend a lot of time planning to buy the clothes for the body we're going to have in 6 months' time. I mean, if anyone's listening going, I like the sound of that, how do I— is there anything I can do to understand my body, my shape, and understand where to start shopping?
Angela FosterOh my gosh, yes, absolutely. So the first exercise, I have a 5-step program that I take all my new clients through. The first one is body shape because that's where it all starts. matter if you know what colors look great on you or you know what your favorite accessories are. If you don't know how to dress for your body shape, we have to stop right there. When I first started style coaching, I heard, you know, and I would start with the whole body shape conversation, I heard a lot of, I'm an apple and my shoulders are too broad and my boobs are too big, or I'm a pear and my butt's too big and my stomach's too big and my hips are too wide. And it was always like, this is what I am and this is why I it's bad, and I spent all my effort trying to hide what's bad. And I was like, oh my God, this is totally depressing. So we flipped the script a little bit. Well, probably a lot. And instead what we do is, so I say to you, what is your very favorite feature? What do you love most about your figure?
Leanne ElliottDo you want me to answer?
Angela FosterI do.
Leanne ElliottMy boobs. Fabulous.
Angela FosterFabulous. Yes. That's amazing. No, no, no, no. But you know what I think is funny? And you're not the only one that does that, is anytime somebody says, my boobs are my favorite feature, they whisper it.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Angela FosterI'm like, girl, scream it. Scream it. Now, I know that there's gonna be listeners who are like, oh my gosh, there's no way. I am not gonna wear a bunch of like hoochie mama tops showing off a bunch of cleavage. And that's not what it's about. I mean, obviously I work with professional women. There's not a ton of cleavage going on, right? But there are subtle ways that you can enhance your boobs and still create that balanced body shape. That we're going for. So after you pick your favorite feature, we decide how are we going to accentuate it? Is it going to be layered necklaces? Is it going to be a gentle V-neck? Is it going to be buttoned-up tops? Whatever that is, whatever makes sense with your lifestyle, your personal style, what your aspirations are, and all of that. Then we look at the— and the rest of your body shape. And the idea is, I mean, it's really easy.
Angela FosterYeah.
Angela FosterThe idea is just to create the illusion of balance. You know how we've all seen those makeup tutorials on YouTube where some chick takes contour and highlight? She doesn't have any cheekbones, and then all of a sudden, magically, she has the most dramatic, exotic cheekbones ever. That's all we're doing with clothes. We're just using clothes as a tool to create the illusion of a balanced body shape. Some women have it naturally, some women don't. It's fine. If you have delicate shoulders and a perky bust, and then a fuller bum and thigh area, then we're going to add volume on top. When I look at you from head to toe, I'm going to say you're balanced, or vice versa.
Leanne ElliottOkay. So, you've convinced me. I need to create some kind of brand style that's going to reflect my brand. Where do I start? I remember working with a client once who I was doing some career coaching with. who, um, who, who was known as like the sneaker guy or like the sneaker leader, um, because he'd have really cool sneakers that he'd wear along with quite a sharp suit or, you know, something like that. Um, just do I need that? Do I need a thing? Do I need a bit?
Angela FosterSo you're just full of amazing questions. So I love this one. So let's just— well, let's just use the career coach example because I like that one. So say you're on LinkedIn And you're like, you kind of consider it a career coach, but you haven't made the decision yet. You don't level up, all of that. So you're scrolling through LinkedIn and you see a post from Leanne. Oh, she's a career coach. You won't remember, like I won't remember your name. And then I see another career coach and another career coach, and you know how they're like all of a sudden their career coaches are coming out of the walls. Then I see another post from you and I probably don't remember your company. I definitely don't remember your name at this point, but you're the girl with With the loopy curls that always wears super smart glasses or whatever. So, and then I see you the third time and I'm like, oh my God, this girl is everywhere. Every time I turn around, she must be an amazing career coach. So it takes down that when you have a signature, like his sneakers, your glasses, you know, whatever that signature is, it takes down that know, like, and trust factor from whatever it is today because they say it's like, now I have to see you 19 times before I remember your name or whatever. It scrunches that down until that know, like, and trust factor is a lot faster, and you have instant credibility because I'm looking at you going, oh my gosh, she has like— and I'm maybe not thinking this consciously, but I'm thinking like, she really has it pinned down. Like, I bet she could help me. So yes, we call it a signature. It's typically an accessory. It can be— I have a client, she wears red lipstick no matter what she's doing. Everywhere. Like, red is her jam. Red lipstick, red is, you know, like she has red glasses, she has red earrings, but she's always like, it's a bold red statement. I have another one who wears white blouses all the time. Like, that's her thing. She's in a very colorful industry, so that really makes her stand out when everybody else is trying to be super bright and loud and all that.
Leanne ElliottSo, what signature would you recommend for a podcaster who spent most of her time behind a microphone and is only now starting to show her face to the world?
Angela FosterWell, congratulations. You're just like what we were talking about, like stepping up the visibility. Yes, that is. And when we started that whole like Zoom work from home thing, that definitely became a thing, right? Because we had to keep the party on top because otherwise, like I used to wear like the craziest, highest heeled platform shoes all the time. Well, then nobody can see them. So what difference does it make? Like that, what a wasted effort. So you definitely want to keep it like from the boobs up, you know, to the top. You could do anything. You could do— I do love the smart glasses idea because you are Brainiac, so I like how that ties into your brand and your style and all of that. You could also do fun earrings. You could do something different with your hair, like wear it in a very specific style consistently so it becomes your thing.
Leanne ElliottAnd with that in mind, where does the line go between having a signature and it just becoming a distraction?
Angela FosterOh, right. Oh, that is such a great question. So, well, number one, if it's distracting to you, it's going to be distracting to everybody else, right? Because you and I do so much work, you know, via video and Zoom and that type of thing. Anything that is too loud, you fiddle with it. That's one of the reasons I started wearing my hair up all the time. My VA said, if you do one more video where you're flicking your hair around— but it was always in my face.
Angela FosterYeah.
Angela FosterSo I was like, I can't help it. It's just always in my face. So hence the— so now I always have it pulled back so I don't mess with it. So in answer to your question, if it bothers you, it's going to bother everybody watching. But yeah, nothing that makes too much noise or is like you're fiddling with it. I think those are the 2 big things. And don't forget, you always have your backdrop to help reinforce whatever you're doing.
Leanne ElliottAnd if I was looking to build quite a versatile wardrobe with, as you say, those signature pieces? Because that does seem to be a trend, doesn't it? Whether environmental or sustainability or even just cost of living, fast fashion seems like it's had its day. Is there any tips you'd give to people who want to— how to pick those key pieces for a wardrobe?
Angela FosterOne of the things that makes it that whole, I have nothing to wear thing that really reinforces that is a lack of staples. When you don't have enough layering pieces that, oh my gosh, it's cold outside, I need a cardigan or I need a blazer to throw over it. When you don't have enough of those pieces, all of a sudden getting dressed becomes a lot more difficult. And that's one of the things, it's not a sexy thing. It's not like, oh really? You think we need basics and essentials? Well, yes. It's not to say that that has to be your entire closet, but you need to have enough that when it gets cold, when it gets hot and all of that, you You can tweak your favorite pieces enough to be weather appropriate, situationally appropriate, and all of that. So that's the first thing. And like I said, it's not sexy. So, and especially for petites, it can be tough to find things that fit that well that, you know, you can have like a button-down blouse in the, you know, all the most important colors. So there's that. The other thing is, is that my clients who come to me that are struggling the most, their closet looks like a rainbow. And they have every color on the planet. They love how colorful they are. And I think that's amazing. And it makes mixing and matching and pulling together an outfit that feels cohesive a lot more challenging, right? Because if you have, you know, unless you're like Rainbow Brite, but do you know what I mean? Because nothing can go. And so if that black pencil skirt has a stain on it, then I'm stuck because, you know, the only other thing I have is an orange pencil skirt.
Angela FosterRight.
Angela FosterSo, having those, like, you know, some sort of a cohesive color theme. A good rule of thumb is if you have a color palette, whether it be black, white, and gray, or navy, khaki, and white, or whatever that is, if 80-ish percent of your closet falls into that color palette, you're going to have a lot more mixing and matching opportunities than somebody who has a rainbow closet.
Leanne ElliottAnd on the flip side of that, if somebody maybe has— I can't imagine who I'm talking about, Angela. But if somebody might have a wardrobe that, say, is mainly black, white, gray, beige, um, with the odd, you know, there might be a bit of green in there, olive green from time to time, um, should, should I feel pressured to inject color in my wardrobe? Or are you like, you know what, Leanne, you do you if that's your thing? Or am I going to blend into the background? How much do I need to think and worry about this?
Angela FosterNo, you be you. There is not a thing wrong with black, white, gray, and beige. Not a thing unless you're bored, unless you walk into your closet and you're like, this is not fun because I feel like a monochromatic painting. If that, then absolutely, let's spark, you know, like let's inject some, you know, pops of color. That's such an easy thing to do. But no, don't feel any pressure. Don't feel— this is the other thing. People are like, oh, I feel like I should wear like a floral something. It's spring. Or I feel like I should like inject some prints. Do you like prints? If you do, fantastic. If you don't, who cares? Like, no. And that's one of the things, when you become confident in your personal style, it's so much easier to walk away from things, especially trends that you're like, nope, not going to work on me. I just flat out don't like it. Not going to participate. There's plenty of other trends this season that I can take part in if I want to. So no, don't feel pressured unless you're bored. The best compliment I can get is when my clients say to me, it is so much fun getting up and getting dressed. I have so much fun. That's the best thing they can say to me because I know it's fun because they like what's in their closet and they know it makes them look good.
Leanne ElliottIs designer clothes important? Do designer clothes look smarter? Does it give an impression above shopping at the high street?
Angela FosterSome brands and designers can be very important to some women. And if that's important to you, I have zero judgment. about that. I do think you get to a point though in your life where you feel confident enough in how you look, what you wear, what your closet looks like, what you do for a living, and you have a level of happiness that you don't feel that's so necessary. Do my clients buy designer? Sometimes if they like it. I don't feel like they're buying it just because of the brand though. So I think you get to a certain point where it's more important how I feel in something Versus, you know, advertising for Louis Vuitton.
Leanne ElliottAt this stage, you might be feeling that this is a bigger project than you initially thought. I wanted to know from Angela what she recommends listeners do to get started. Angela starts by telling us what not to do, then walks me through her 5-part SPARK method. Oh, and she also has a free gift for you. Yes, you. Is there one thing that Is there anything that anyone could do today to maybe start to— or I guess a starting book? Because like you said, we've talked about so much stuff and so much exciting stuff that I instantly want to get onto Pinterest and go shopping. But for the sake of my bank account, where should I start?
Angela FosterOkay. Don't shop. That is going to be the key takeaway for the listeners. Don't buy another thing. Don't purge anything until you have a plan, because that's what got us into the situation we're in right now. And we end up wearing the same thing over and over and over again. So don't shop until you have a strategy, whether that's my strategy, Leanne's strategy, a strategy you got from someone. Do you know what I mean? But have a plan because just to your point, just spending money on more stuff is rarely the answer. Rarely the answer. As many of my clients who've said, oh my gosh, I don't have anything to wear, not one of them have they shown me their closet and it literally be empty.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Angela FosterSo I think that's a really good point. Like, there's stuff. There's stuff in there. That might not be the right stuff, but until we know what that is, just buying more wrong stuff isn't helpful.
Leanne ElliottHow does everything we've talked about fit into your SPARK Method?
Angela FosterSo, we've talked about a lot. The first one is body shape. The second one is the perfect pant formula, because, Leanne, you know, like, pants are troublesome for short girls. They come up to your boobs or they're dragging on the floor and all of that. So there's a simple 3-part formula that we put together so you can always find pants that fit you. Then we talk about accessories. So accessories can either go to your signature accessory like we're talking about, your headphones. I'm going to keep slipping that in there so afterwards you're like, yes, I want to go look for a pair. But it can also be what accessories can accentuate your favorite feature. Then we talk about refining your style. So that's where the 3 adjectives come in and also what colors look best on your skin tone. Now, it's not— we are not the color police around here. Like, I am not going to tell somebody not to wear a color that happens to be their favorite because it's not on their ideal color palette. But it does help sometimes to fix an outfit that's not working. When you put something on, whether you're in a store or whether you actually own it, and you're like, gosh, what is this? Like, I just don't feel as good in this. I don't feel like my skin as smooth and pretty looking or whatever, you'll know. And I think a lot of times knowing how to fix an outfit that's like on the fence is as powerful as just being able to pick out the right stuff, right? So that's refining the style. And then the last step is doing— keeping your closet clean. So purging the items that don't work, you know, filling in the blanks, knowing what to buy, not about just shopping without a purpose. You need to have a list. You need to know why, you know, like, why am I— but when I get this perfect black belt, what does that mean? That I'm going to have all these other options, or it's going to make this outfit look more polished and that type of thing. I think one of the things that's so harmful to a woman's self-esteem is when she walks into her closet and she's like, nope, makes my butt look big. Nope, my hips. Nope, shows off my stomach. Nope, nope, nope. And you just filled your mind with all garbage about how your body is wrong and all of that, how are you supposed to leave the house and feel amazing and go crush your goals? I mean, I can't do that. I can't imagine there's a ton of women out there. So we want to get rid of the items that aren't working, slowly add items that will work and will make it fun to get dressed in the morning. So many women are like, I'm I'm however old. I'm 40 years old and I haven't found out my style and I don't know how to shop and I don't know what to wear and all of that. And then they get to that point where, oh, I just wasn't born with the style gene. Like there's a gene, there's an extra chromosome somewhere that some women have and some women don't, and I don't have it, so I'm just stuck feeling frumpy or not stylish or whatever. And that's not the case at all. I really look at style as it really is. It's a science.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Angela FosterAnd there's lots of women who are going to— people, stylists, who are going to make it sound super complicated, but it's not. It's really not. I have a gift for your listeners. It's a body shape quiz so they can get started knowing the styles and silhouettes that flatter their shape the best. They can go to angelafoster.co/leanne and they'll get thrown right into the quiz with a personalized video afterwards with recommendations and that sort of thing. type of thing.
Leanne ElliottThat is us done for today. Let us know what you think, and if you take some, some of Angela's advice, um, and do have a mini glow up, then send us your before and after photos. Everybody loves a little bit of a makeover montage, don't they?
Angela FosterEven better, why not post them on LinkedIn and tag us and Angela in? Because I'm pretty sure she'd be thrilled to see what you've done with her advice. Join us again next Thursday where we bring you another brilliant guest with a real story and practical advice on building amazing workplace cultures.
Leanne ElliottBut if you cannot wait a week, then don't worry, you can join us next Tuesday for your weekly fix of workplace news, those spicy hot takes from our expert panel, and of course our famous Workplace Surgery where Al puts your tough questions to me. Until then, make sure you have subscribed to the show on whatever platform you get your podcasts. And if you really want to support us, consider posting on LinkedIn about how much you enjoyed this episode. Um, and hopefully you did, because as we said, there's a little gift for you in the show notes from Angela. Go check that out.
Angela FosterAlso check the show notes for Leanne's email address. Feel free to send her questions. She personally answers every single one, even though it does take a little bit of a while. And if you'd like your question to be read out and answered on the show, then use the subject line Workplace Surgery, and I'll make sure I'll put it to Leanne over the next few weeks. And you can tell me if you want it anonymous or not. So have a fabulous Thanksgiving if we've got the date right. I'm not sure it's out on the day of Thanksgiving, but either, either way, have a fabulous one. I hope you had a fabulous one. And as Leanne Leanne always says, may your turkey be moist and your yams sweet. Say goodbye, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottGoodbye, Leanne.
Angela FosterBye, guys.
Angela FosterBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottAnd what I wear is not about me. No, sorry, usually, usually better than this.
Angela FosterYou are.
Leanne ElliottAnd one final word. If there is anyone out there who is now thinking Sorry. And one final word. And one final word.
Angela FosterYou can do this.
Leanne ElliottAnd one final— sorry, mouth click.
Angela Foster9th time lucky.
Leanne ElliottAnd one final word on this. If there is anyone out there thinking— okay, do you want to just start again?
Angela FosterIs that easier? Yeah, much easier.