Episode 151 · 5 December 2024 · 57:36
How to deal with grief at work
How to deal with grief at work
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Introduction and trigger warning
Maria's story: losing her dad and her daughter
interview#grief#personal-story#loss
Grief and the workplace: the conversation we avoid
interview#grief#workplace#taboo
Returning to work after a massive bereavement
interview#bereavement#return-to-work#support
What managers can do to support grieving employees
The fear of saying the wrong thing
interview#communication#fear#grief
The psychology of grief: how loss affects the brain
interview#psychology#grief#brain
Policies and training for compassionate workplaces
interview#policies#training#compassion
The business case for grief support and closing advice
interview#business-case#grief-support#advice
Show notes
How to Deal With Grief at Work — with Maria Georgiou
Guest: Maria Georgiou — mental health advocate, founder of MGAG, and bereavement specialist helping individuals and businesses navigate loss.
Grief doesn't clock out when we do. And for the millions of us navigating loss while holding down a job, the workplace can feel like the hardest place to be human.
This week, Al and Leanne sit down with Maria Georgiou, who shares her deeply personal story of losing her father and her daughter — and what that taught her about returning to work, supporting grieving colleagues, and why most organisations get bereavement support badly wrong.
With the holiday season amplifying feelings of loss, this episode is a masterclass in compassion: how managers can show up without fixing, why check-ins must never be disguised performance reviews, and how small gestures — a card, an acknowledged anniversary — can mean the world.
Trigger warning: this episode discusses grief, bereavement, and loss. If this feels like too much right now, we completely understand. Prioritise your wellbeing and join us next time.
Top 3 Takeaways
Check-ins are not performance reviews. Separate wellbeing conversations from formal reviews entirely. A grieving employee needs to know you're asking because you care, not because you're measuring.
Never tell someone how they should feel. Avoid assumptions and clichés. Instead, listen, validate, and sit with them in the discomfort. You don't need the right words — you need to show up.
Small gestures matter more than grand policies. Acknowledging an anniversary, sending a card, or remembering a significant date can provide more comfort than any formal process. Grief doesn't follow a calendar — and support shouldn't either.
More From Maria Georgiou
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/maria-georgiou-60b5b491
💬 Key Insights From This Episode
The Vet Analogy, but for HR and leadership. Just as vets enter the profession loving animals only to see them at their sickest, leaders who love people are often brought in when people are at their most vulnerable. Maria's story reframes this — grief support isn't a burden, it's the core of leadership.
The brain on grief. Leanne breaks down the cognitive impacts of loss — why it feels like your brain is moving in slow motion, why simple tasks become overwhelming, and why returning to work after bereavement requires a gradual, flexible approach, not a rigid "back to normal."
Bereavement policies that actually work. Maria shares practical tools like wellness passports and phased return-to-work plans that give employees agency over their own recovery — and gives managers a clear framework for support without overstepping.
The business case for compassion. Supporting grieving employees isn't just the right thing to do — it's the productive thing to do. Maria explains how compassionate workplaces see increased loyalty, reduced turnover, and better team cohesion.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental Health Support
If you have been affected by any of the themes in this episode, or are currently struggling with your mental health, the following resources may be useful:
UK:
- Samaritans: Call 116 123 (free, 24/7) or visit samaritans.org
- Mind: Call 0300 123 3393 or text 86463, or visit mind.org.uk
- Cruse Bereavement Support: Call 0808 808 1677 or visit cruse.org.uk
US:
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: Call or text 988, or visit 988lifeline.org
- GriefShare: Visit griefshare.org for local support groups
Global:
- International Association for Suicide Prevention (IASP): Visit iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres/
- Befrienders Worldwide: Visit befrienders.org
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome. Hello to you if you're a brand new listener. Now, today might be quite a serious topic, but firstly, it's a very important topic. And secondly, you are going to learn a lot as a leader or HR professional or business owner. Just if you are new, most episodes aren't quite as sombre as this one. But if you have listened before, then welcome back. You know the score. Give me 8 seconds to explain to the newbies how this little podcast works.
Maria GeorgiouRight.
Al ElliottEvery Tuesday, we bring you our weekly fix of workplace news, spicy takes from our expert panel, and our famous— world-famous— weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. And every Thursday, just like today, we sit down with someone who's an expert in the workplace and ask them the questions that most podcasters are afraid to ask.
Leanne ElliottBefore we introduce today's guest, I do have a trigger warning for this episode. We do discuss grief, bereavement, and the challenges of navigating loss in the workplace, particularly during the holiday season. Some listeners may find the content emotionally distressing. addressing. And if you feel this topic might just be too difficult for you right now, we completely understand and encourage you to prioritize your well-being. Press pause, skip this episode, join us next time. Today on the show, we are joined by someone whose story is both deeply moving and incredibly inspiring. Maria Georgiou is a passionate advocate for mental health and well-being with a mission to make these conversations accessible to everybody. Through her business MGAG, she collaborates with individuals, businesses, and communities to create tailored solutions that bring light to often overlooked issues like grief and bereavement in the workplace. Maria's advocacy is rooted in her personal journey. In 2022, Maria faced the unimaginable heartbreak of losing her daughter after years of cancer treatment. Her experience of navigating this profound loss while juggling work and family responsibilities has driven her to break the silence around grief, especially in spaces where it's often brushed side. She's written powerfully about the struggles bereaved parents face, not just in their personal lives but in returning to work environments that often lack the tools or understanding to truly support them. This episode will address unique challenges that grief brings to the workplace, especially as the holiday season can amplify these feelings. With 25% of people reporting that Christmas worsens their mental health, this time of year can be especially difficult for those who have lost loved ones. Today, Maria shares her reflections on loss, the she hopes to see in workplaces when it comes to supporting grieving employees and the importance of open dialogue around mental health.
Al ElliottYeah, so in this episode, we'll answer 3 key questions. Firstly, what should managers be doing to support people who've gone through a bereavement? Secondly, and this is the, this is the one, the question I really want to hear the answer to, what do you even say to someone who's experienced loss? And can you actually say the wrong thing? And the spoiler is yes, you can. And thirdly and finally, what plans or policies can you put in place at work to help someone return to work from a bereavement. So let's join the interview where we meet Maria and hear her story, and then learn what it's like returning to work after such a difficult time.
Maria GeorgiouI'm Maria. I am self-employed. I run a little company which focuses on education, training, and in particular supporting people and employees with bereavement and wellness. I talk a lot about issues that are really important to me that I know that, that I know people don't necessarily want to talk about or that they shy away from. So I'm quite vocal about things that I think really matter and that we keep inside us because we're too scared to mention it.
Leanne ElliottAnd it isn't an easy conversation, yet it's something that we all experience. If we haven't already, we— it's certain that we will at some point. Do you mind sharing a bit about your background and how you started to get into this type of work?
Maria GeorgiouSo 9 years ago, I lost my dad. So he had cancer. And he, he, he went through 5 years of his illness. We thought he only had a few years to live. But actually, he kept going 5 years, really positive. His outlook was incredible. And that was very, very inspiring and inspirational. And at that time, something that I knew frustrated him was that people would shy away around talking about his illness. So they would come and visit him, but they didn't want to talk about it because it's uncomfortable talking about cancer. People see it as the big C word. They don't want to say it. They don't want to acknowledge it. And it's scary because there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding around the illness. So I— he was living with me, and I kind of went through the whole process literally from the minute he got diagnosed to the end. And towards the end, we were having these incredible conversations about what he wanted to happen Post him dying. And I would go and tell— I would be speaking to friends and family about this, and they found it really, really uncomfortable. So, so that kind of got me into this, okay, people aren't talking about this, but they really need to, because it means that we're not support— we don't know how to support people who are going through it. And it means that when that person goes, the people that are left behind, or the people that were caring for them, They have a really difficult time moving on. At that time, I worked full-time throughout the whole period of his illness, and it was really difficult because you get to a point where you start thinking, oh my goodness, people think this is an excuse. I need to go off to a hospital appointment, or I need to do this, and quite often last minute. So at that time, I didn't think that deeply into that side of it because I almost felt like it was just— there was nothing I could do about it, and it was just how it had to be. If you need to work, you just have to get on with it. But then a few years after that, my daughter got diagnosed with cancer. She was 15 years old, and it was a whole different experience because as much illness is horrible for anyone, but as much as losing a parent is really, really difficult. Having to then go through something very similar with your child, I can only describe it as, as like a million times worse, because it's just not the natural order. We don't expect— you don't expect your child to get that seriously ill. And my daughter actually passed away 3 years ago now. So she passed away 3 years after she was diagnosed. Now, again, it was that same— it was that same experience of how do I deal with work and other people around that and also give the right care and attention to my daughter and my family? And it was really, really difficult. I couldn't afford to not work. And I think that's one of the things that has kind of led me to this point as well. Day-to-day dealing with it is hard enough. Having to then go to work and deal with these issues, it's like another mountain to climb, and you feel a lot of guilt and a lot of kind of anguish and anxiety about those things. And I felt something has to be done, and there just isn't enough out there to support both the person who is grieving and actually the people at work, the management, and so on. So I couldn't blame those people. Because I think until you go through something like that, you probably don't know what it feels like.
Leanne ElliottWe're absolutely going to dig into the work you're doing and, and the incredible advocacy that, that you're, that you're putting out in the world. You said something there that I'm not sure I ever really stopped and considered, really. It's— we think about quite a binary thing, don't we? Think about grief, we think about bereavement, we think about loss. But actually, in a lot of circumstances, there is a period of time prior to that, where you're still having to work whilst caring for a loved one, um, either knowing or not knowing what the outcome is, is going to be. I mean, during that time, what— was there anything that helped you or could have helped you during that period that employers could provide to people in the workplace?
Maria GeorgiouSo when someone is diagnosed with a really serious illness, that actually there's a conversation in the workplace around what might— what that might entail for you in terms of work. So for me, for example, having to suddenly go to hospital, so I had to drop everything and you had to go. There's no ifs or buts about it, you just have to go. And missing meetings or your morning, so that caring period for the person who's ill, your whole morning might be taken up with getting medication, food, and if you've got, for example, nurses and people coming into your home, having to organize all of those things before you can actually even begin to work. So things that, that helped me at the time, and I think would also help others in that same situation, it would be things like being able to start a bit later. So instead of having meetings, for example, at 8, 9, o'clock, saying, okay, there's all these things that I need to do first before I get to work, so I'm going to start at 10 o'clock is a better time. Being able to work from home, I was very fortunate. I worked in an organization that was happy for that to happen. And actually, during this particular period, during my daughter's illness, it was lockdown, so we were at home anyway. That In a lot of ways made things a little bit easier. So you're at home. And I think also thinking about what is urgent and what isn't. So sometimes getting a message on my phone saying, I really urgently need to speak to you, or this has come up, can you please get in touch? You have to consider, is that— is it urgent? How urgent is it? Or is it something that could maybe wait a bit longer? Or is there someone else who might be able to help? And I appreciate in some ways it sounds like you're making huge adjustments for that person, but it has to be a conversation with them. So it has to be a collaborative thing. There's no point in just going, take all the time you need, or yeah, just start when you want, because actually that doesn't work. It's too— there's too many variables. You don't know what's going to happen day to day. So there has to be— there has to be a plan. But there has to be some flexibility within that plan, and there has to be some understanding behind it. And actually, that goes into the whole— it's almost like a whole culture change for an organization because it gets you thinking about other things that might need to happen. So I think some adjustments around time. And I also appreciate different jobs, different organizations work differently. For me, my job at that time, I used to manage a department— not a department, I used to manage an area of work. Yeah. At that time, I you know it was probably easier to be able to make those sorts of adjustments for people who are maybe working in a different kind of workplace. That might be quite it might look quite different. So it does need to be a conversation, and it does need to bring in a whole team. And I think when something like that is happening, the whole team around you needs to be spoken to. It needs to be explained to them what's going on. Otherwise, you can end up with some resentful colleagues who are like, "Well, why hasn't she turned up?" Oh, she's late again. Oh, she didn't come to the meeting on time. And it's remarks that can really get to the person who's going through it and can actually throw off your confidence. It begins to make you think, oh, I'm unreliable. People don't— people don't want to work with me because I'm not— I'm not performing as well as I should. So there has to be understanding around it, and people need to understand your situation. And I think that gives a little bit more— not about leeway, but it is a little bit more about understanding. So if meetings are being put in, Ask that person, when is this okay to put this meeting in? Does it need to be a face-to-face meeting? What kind of meeting does it need to be? Is it something we could just discuss over email? So it's, it's those little things at that point that really need to be understood and put in place. And it does require— it requires understanding, it requires an element of training, but also openness.
Al ElliottYeah.
Maria GeorgiouIf you're not in a culture where you can openly express what's going on, I think for someone who's a carer at that point, and essentially a full-time carer and a full-time employee, there's— it's going to become really— it's a heavy load.
Leanne ElliottHow was it when you went back to work? What were the challenges that, that you faced? As you said, you know, a lot of people aren't in a position where they can afford to take as much time off as, as they need. For your experience, what was that the biggest challenge?
Maria GeorgiouI don't think we'd really planned my return to work properly after such a massive bereavement. I think the first thing was that I felt pressure, not necessarily because of where I work, not, not, not work itself, but I was almost feeling pressure myself to go back, uh, early or to go back as quickly as I could. Because at the back of our minds, there's always a concern that we need to be performing, we need to be doing well, we need to be present. So I think the first thing was probably that I went to work far too quickly. And, and that was— that, that's just, I think, just natural pressure that work puts on you without them even saying anything. So, so that was one thing. I think there was also the fact that perhaps we hadn't quite communicated things properly to everyone at the organization. And there has to be an element of— obviously, again, it's that it's a two-way conversation between, you know, the management and yourself. And I think I'd been asked whether I minded whether people knew about what had happened. And I was like, no, you know, I'm happy for them. Yeah. To know. But I think what had been communicated had just been to my immediate team, rather than perhaps to the wider organization. I worked for a very, very big organization. Now, the problem with that is that you're going to come across people who have no idea of what's gone on, and/or that they find out at a later, later date, and it just becomes quite an uncomfortable thing. So I think One of the biggest challenges was just feeling like I had to just not talk about it, or I had to—I felt like I was consoling others over my loss because they were so shocked, or they didn't know, or that they just didn't know what to say. So that that felt that felt really uncomfortable. You're kind of sitting there, and you can feel that people are either looking at you or they they don't know what. To say. So suddenly you feel like— and it's probably not even the case, but you feel like you've got a great big beacon or something on your head, then that you're highlighted, that it's you that's there. So that it was a challenge in terms of what to say to people without making them feel uncomfortable. So some people would just come and just, you know, say I'm really sorry and so on. And that was fine. And others just avoid you and you can really feel that. So I felt that really, there needed to be something that was going to almost support the colleagues in the office, in the workplace, to be able to, to deal with their teammates' loss as well, because it weighs heavy on them. It actually affects everybody that you're working with. So I think just generally that, that was difficult. People don't know how to talk about grief. People don't know how to address it. I also think there hadn't really been There should have probably been a bit of a better structure to the way that things were dealt with. On my first day, for example, it was really strange because suddenly you're doing something that's really, really normal that everyone does. It's what you do every day, but it doesn't feel normal anymore. And a lot of your working day as a parent, as a partner, as As a, you know, as anyone who lives with other people, who's got family that they're— that, that are a really big part of their lives. A lot of your working day, as much as you're at work, in the back of your mind, you're also planning what's happening after work. So if you're a parent, you're probably thinking about what you're going to make for dinner, what you need to pick up on the way home, and so on. During the day, you might be checking in on your children, and suddenly this kind of normal stuff that you do every day.
Al ElliottYeah.
Maria GeorgiouYou get to your normal place of work, but it's not normal anymore because there's all these things that you're not going to do. So you're not going to check up on your child, you're not going to stop off at the shops to pick something up and so on. And that, that felt a bit strange. And I think there needs to be like a— it was challenging. One of the biggest challenges was just that getting there. So actually getting into work, stepping into the office, And almost feeling like everything has just carried on without you, and you're suddenly there. But you feel you don't feel good. You don't feel great. I think you know once you're kind of in the swing of things, you're just getting on with it. So you're not you're not necessarily thinking anything beyond that. But you do get you you're suddenly something will just trigger a memory or a feeling of the person that you've lost. So you could just be sitting there and it could be a conversation someone's having. It could just be something going on. It could be that a party's taking place at work or the time of year and it will suddenly trigger something in you. And you could be in the middle of doing something. You could be in a meeting. But, but you're, you know, you're kind of feeling anxious. And there's these really horrible kind of physical symptoms that you get when you're going through a bereavement. And I think I hadn't quite thought about the fact that that would happen while I was at work. My mind was, oh, I'm going to be at work and I'm going to be fully distracted because I'm just getting on with things. And actually, right at the start of a bereavement, of that process, there's a lot of stuff that just happens and you don't, you don't expect it. It just happens out of the blue. So I think probably having been able to just say, you know what, I'm having a moment. And I need some time out, but not. And it's a challenge to do that because you don't as much as you want people to know and understand that maybe things aren't quite right for you at that moment. You also don't want to be disrupting everyone and making them think that you need some kind of special attention or or special arrangement because you feel guilty. And actually, you do need a bit of you do need that special arrangement and the special support. But you also don't want to stick out as the person who isn't pulling their weight or isn't turning up to meetings or is late and all of those sorts of things. And I think that's why that the challenge around having the right person to speak to and accessing certain services is a big one. And that was for me as well. So, you know, when I got back, I was told, you know, if you need to If you need time out, just let us know. There was a lot of let us know, let us know, let us know. The problem with saying let us know is that you're probably not going to let anyone know because you unless you really trust someone or you've got that kind of culture where you feel that you can just go up to whoever it is your manager or senior management and say I need this time or I need to do this or I need this done in this way, you're not going to do it. So you can be given you know the employee assistance helpline number. You can be told there's this available if you need it. But sometimes what you need is someone to almost do it for you. So it has to be an ongoing conversation. So you need to have those check-ins. And, and that's what people are scared of. And that, I think, was the problem. I was in a lovely, supportive environment, great organization. But there was still that, that barrier of this is someone who is grieving and The bereavement is a scary one because it's not a, it's not an ordinary one as such. And they need it. I just think that that's the problem. People get really, really scared to say the wrong thing or say anything. And you do, it can make you feel quite isolated and alienated. So that, you know, check-ins and that kind of thing are really, really important.
Al ElliottOkay, after this very short break, we're going to hear more from Maria about what managers should be doing to support anyone who's gone through bereavement. Plus, we're going to learn there definitely is the wrong Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast—
Leanne Elliottthat's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which one is which. It. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you wanna hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts. But thanks. But come back. Yeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out.
Leanne ElliottKeep that in.
Al ElliottWelcome back. Let's just start with what managers can do to support anyone who's dealt with a loss. Maria tells us what helped her, why check-ins are great, but how managers can often get them wrong. And finally, what is the wrong thing you can say to someone? And also, what are the right things? So let's rejoin the interview.
Leanne ElliottYou said it, you know, a few times people can be afraid of saying the wrong thing. And you mentioned that, you know, random things can, can trigger a response, a memory, particularly at this time of year. Yeah, you know, there'll be people who will be going into their first Christmas without this person in their lives, maybe in their 10th Christmas, you know, it's— that loss is still there. What can business leaders maybe do now today to check in and support somebody who is in this process of grief going into Christmas?
Maria GeorgiouI think it is literally a conversation, and it's that being brave with it. So sit down with the person who is, who's grieving or bereaved and say, and acknowledge it, I know that this, or I know that this might be a difficult time of year for you. What can we do that's going to help you not feel, you know, not feel triggered or not feel— that's probably the wrong word— but not feel overwhelmed by what's going on? And I think that then opens that conversation. So it could be, do you want to be invited to the Christmas party? Because I think I know people were worried about me being invited, you know, whether I'd be upset that I was invited to the party or that I was at the party or Or people were celebrating and I didn't feel that way. So, you know, do you want the invite? Do you want to be part of the emails discussing our Christmas lunch? So it has to be an open and really honest conversation. How do you feel about working in the office when it's covered in Christmas decorations and Christmas cards and that kind of stuff? And I think that it's not saying that actually no one else in your working environment can celebrate and enjoy that time of year. It's actually just saying, we understand that things might be a bit hard for you. What can we do that's going to help you? So if it's that you're going to work from home on, say, I don't know, the last week, if you can, before Christmas, then that could really help. If it's that actually you're not going to go to the Christmas party because you don't feel that way, but you still want to be included In what's going on, so you don't want because maybe on that day you suddenly think oh I'll be all right I might go for a little bit. So you still want to be part of it. You don't want to feel like you're an outsider, and I think that's where people might go wrong. So workplaces get they're so sensitive to the fact that it is a sensitive thing that they go too far and they begin to exclude. So you want to be included, but in a way that's going to make it comfortable. For you and for others around you. Acknowledge it. For example, if there's Christmas cards or gifts that are given to employees, making sure that there's an acknowledgement of the person who has passed away. So I don't mean by necessarily saying, you know, to whoever and the person, but just saying, we're thinking of you at this time, or we understand this might be a difficult period of time, and just allowing you to feel, to feel seen and heard at that, at that moment. And it's not huge adjustments, it's literally just saying, what can we do for you? And I think what's important with check-ins is making sure that the check-in is a genuine check-in. And I know that might sound a bit strange. Don't add on a check-in, don't make a check-in around their well-being, don't make it part of your one-to-one where you're discussing performance, meetings, work, schedules and that kind of thing, because it will just disappear. And it's quite hard to go from talking to something quite personal and emotional to then suddenly going, right, so are all the invoices done? Have we done this? It's too much to pack into one. So I think putting in a check-in that is a check-in on your wellbeing is really important. And it's not something that's going to— that needs to take loads of time. We're talking 5, 10 minutes. Are you okay? What's happening? That kind of thing. So I don't think check-ins have to be part— should be part of that, of kind of your work as such, you know, your business as usual stuff. That's not where the check-in fits in. It has to be a separate one. And I think that's also another thing perhaps that organizations need to think about. Yeah. A line manager's got a hell of a lot on their plate. Some of them will be able to take this on and they'll be like, that's fine, I can easily do this. You know, I'll have a bit of training around bereavement and grief. I'll do a separate check-in. I can do all of this stuff. I can support this member of staff. For others, it just, it just doesn't fall within their, their skill set or they're not, they're not comfortable doing it. So I think adding on these kinds of You know, this kind of support to align managers', you know, endless list of tasks that they have to do can be problematic because they might not be doing it in a way that's actually helpful or supportive. And I think that's why there needs to be training and there needs to be the right support for those managers as well. Yeah. So is, is the line manager the right person to do it? It might be, but actually it might be someone else. So it's just making sure that the right people are there to actually support bereaved employees. And it could, it might just be another team member. It doesn't have to be a manager. So it's just someone who is able to do that check-in and have those slightly more difficult conversations, someone who's able to do it and willing to do it. And they can, you know, there's nothing wrong with them then going back to the line manager and say, I've checked in, everything's okay, or I've checked in, so-and-so could really do with maybe a little bit of time around, you know, they're going to need a little bit of time because the holidays are coming up, or they need to be coming in a little bit later because of this, that, and the other. So it's, it's just everybody actually collaborating and talking together, but just making sure that it's the right people who are able to do that and can provide that support. Otherwise, it just becomes a stress for everyone.
Leanne ElliottI'm— I guess one thing you've said quite a lot is, you know, people are worried about saying the wrong thing. Can anyone say the wrong thing? What's the wrong thing?
Maria GeorgiouYou'd be surprised. I think some people overthink what they're going to say, and unfortunately, it can come out as something really insensitive. And they don't mean it. Most people, they're just trying to show that they sympathize with you. And what you can say, which can, you know, there's been a few instances, I'll give you some examples. So for example, you know what, someone might come over to you and they're desperate to say something because actually they're a really great work colleague and they want to, they've worked with you for a long time. And They'll suddenly, they'll say, you know, I'm really sorry for your loss. And sometimes that's enough. You don't need to go further. But then they, they kind of want to make you feel comfortable. And they'll say something like, you know, I lost my dog a few weeks ago, or, oh, it must be so hard, you know, and it's, it's putting stuff on you when you're in a position where maybe you just don't actually want to talk about it. And And I think it's just making sure when you're saying, when you're speaking to someone who's bereaved, it's just leaving it at a point where if they want to carry on a conversation and talk about it, it's open to them. If they don't, that's also okay. So on my first day back at work, my, a member of staff, a very important member of staff, saw me walking across the the office and rushed over. And I had actually asked, I just said on that day, I don't mind people acknowledging, of course, of what's happened. But I said, I'm not sure I can actually speak about what's happened at any kind of length. And I'd expressed that to my manager and that had been communicated. So that was actually really good. So he rushed over and said, I'm so sorry about what's happened. And he was kind of asking questions and trying to be really sympathetic. But it was right in the middle of the office for a start. So everyone— I worked in a big open-plan office. And I think at that point, I was literally just going to a meeting or going to do something. And I felt a bit like I'd been ambushed by someone who was trying to show that they really cared, but had almost overwhelmed me with their emotion around the situation. And I actually just said, I said, I'm really— I said, thank you. And then I said, I'm really sorry, I can't talk about this because I'm going to start crying. And then— and I just said that because I was trying to say, you know, that I appreciate what you've said, but you need to stop because I'm in a place where I don't feel like I want to cry right in the middle of an office. And then they just started apologizing. And then they carried on. So it was, you know, they were like, oh, of course, gosh, it must be awful. And it carried on. And I think, and then actually someone else came and rushed over to kind of defuse the situation. But I think it's just saying, it's either just, you know, I'm really sorry. If you want to talk about it or show, you know, if you want to talk or whatever, offering that you're available to talk, or if you don't know what to say, Just say, "I'm really sorry. I don't know what to say," and that's enough because again, you're acknowledging that it's a difficult situation. You know, you you feel that you know it's not an easy thing, and actually, you don't know what to say, and that's perfectly normal and acceptable. I think a lot of people who are bereaved would rather have an "I'm I'm really sorry. I don't know what to say" over "Oh my God! You must be feeling terrible." That's the worst thing. People kept telling me what they thought I was feeling. And quite often at the point when I'm having conversation, I'm feeling fine. But by the end of them telling you how terrible, awful, appalling, disastrous the situation is, you're suddenly feeling those emotions again. If you don't know what to say, just just say I don't know what to say rather than ignoring the person. So there was you know you get a lot of people who just ignore and pretend everything's normal, and I get that. But everything isn't. normal. And I think not acknowledging at all makes it worse. So I'd rather hear, I'm really sorry, I don't know what to say.
Al ElliottLee, this is Lee in the studio now. What are they sort of— where's the psychology fit into grief? What are the aspects of grief?
Leanne ElliottIt's that there is some interesting psychology to grief. And I think one of the things that we often don't always appreciate if we haven't experienced yet is it is something that we're all going to face at some point. We are going to lose somebody close to us. And the impacts of grief can be so much broader and deeper than many of us So psychologically speaking, the impacts of grief can be emotional, cognitive, physical, behavioral, and even spiritual. And each of these areas can be affected in very different ways. So it is important to understand the full scope of grief because it is much more than just feeling sad. And as a manager, there's going to be lots of impacts of grief that you might not necessarily see as part of the grief process. So first of all, emotionally, grief brings waves of sadness, guilt, anger, or loneliness. It can feel really overwhelming and very unpredictable. Emotional impacts don't always follow that straight line. It isn't a linear process. It can feel like you're, you know, on a roller coaster with it. One minute you feel fine, the next you're hit with a wave of sadness or anger. Cognitively or mentally, grief can really have some profound and inconvenient impacts. It can cloud your thinking. It can make it harder to focus. It can make it hard to remember things. It can impact our decision-making capability.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt will feel like your brain is weighed down, it's working in slow motion, and that can make even the most simple task feel really daunting. Grief also has physical impacts, and they're often underestimated, not talked about very much. Grief really does take its toll on your body. It will leave you feeling exhausted, it will disrupt your sleep, it will even affect your appetite. In fact, changes in appetite are really common, and some people completely lose theirs. Grief also has behavioral impacts and can shift how we interact with others or how we spend our time. So you might notice withdrawing from social situations, avoiding things that remind you of the loss, or becoming, becoming overly busy as a way to distract yourself. And finally, grief can have a spiritual impact. Grief can make us question the bigger picture, our beliefs, life's meaning, our own priorities. And these periods of deep reflection can be comforting or derailing, and we call that latter spiritual burnout. It is important to remember, as I've said, that grief doesn't have a set timeline. It doesn't look the same for everybody. It's certainly not linear. But understanding how wide-reaching the effects of grief can be across emotions, thoughts, behaviors, the body, and even our sense of purpose can really help us to better support those that are going through it, whether that's a colleague, a friend, or even ourselves. For individuals listening who are going through a grief process at the moment, it's important to acknowledge your emotions and give yourself permission to grieve in your own way. Do try and seek support from friends, family, or professionals, and recognize, as I've said, This isn't linear. It's okay to have good days and hard days, and if a hard day is Christmas Day, then that's the way it is. For managers, the key is to approach grieving employees with empathy and flexibility. Listen without judgment, avoid assumptions, and offer practical support such as flexible working arrangements or phased returns. Support can be emotional and highly practical.
Al ElliottWell said, Leanne. So let's just get a little bit practical and tactical here. It might sound a bit cold to say we're going to create a policy for dealing bereavement. But Maria says that that's actually a really good idea. It can provide a framework and a procedure that means everyone gets treated with the compassion they need, and managers know exactly what to do. So we're going to rejoin the interview where Maria gives some great foundations for creating exactly this kind of policy.
Leanne ElliottI mean, what policies or training could companies put in place to create these compassionate spaces for grieving employees?
Maria GeorgiouDefinitely. There's so much that can be done, and the great thing about anything that can be done for employees around this area, it can usually benefit other areas of their work as well. Training around understanding grief and bereavement, I think, is vital for everyone in any workplace. So that would include managers so that they can understand Grief and bereavement. And also, you know, all the employees. So generally, anyone who is, you know, a team member, an employee, needs to be— needs to have an understanding of it because it will affect everybody. So I think grief and bereavement training, really, really important. And this isn't something that can— that needs to take up a huge amount of time. It's literally It could be an hour, half an hour, a talk, and just some pointers of what what you can do to support others or what you can do to ensure that that you're showing compassion towards other to to a bereaved employee. I think training around listening is really really important. People quite often, you know, they they listen to respond. So someone will say something and it's like, oh yeah, that happened to my aunt. Oh yeah, my. As I said, you know, my dog died last week, my neighbor's child died, and it's those sorts of things that that can actually come across as really insensitive. But it's just it's just people trying to trying to respond in a certain way. So I think actual active listening training can be so so helpful, and it means that well, first, that's brilliant for communication across the board. But if the bereaved person, for example. just wants to let off some steam or just say, you know, they just want to talk. They don't want advice. They don't want to hear about your, you know, your neighbor's dog or whatever it is. They just want to be listened to, that actually there are people on board who can just listen. So active listening, training around bereavement, having wellness plans in place.
Al ElliottYeah.
Maria GeorgiouSo literally, like, people call them different things. So it could be— they're called wellness passports or plans or, you know, whatever word you want to use. And that can just— all it is is sitting down with a member of staff and going through what can help them ensure that they're safeguarding their own wellness and keep it and actually able to be in work rather than later down the line.
Al ElliottYeah.
Maria Georgioube off sick, taking time out, and/or feeling alienated and stressed at work. So that could just include things like, I need to start a bit later on whatever day it is. I, I might need time out throughout the day or a quiet space, or I need to step outside into, into the air at some point. So, so wellness plans are really important. There's something that I think is brilliant that I've seen in a few places. They have important dates to remember boards, and literally any employee— and it could be about anything, it doesn't necessarily need to be around grief or bereavement, but that's where I've seen it used, and I think it's a fantastic idea— and it's literally marking down really important dates in that person's calendar, well, in that person's year, that could potentially be problematic for them. So the anniversary of a death, the— and it could be the anniversary of a funeral, these little things, Father's Day, Mother's Day, things that could be really difficult for that employee. And it's just having a conversation a week beforehand. I know that the anniversary of so-and-so's death is coming up. What can we do that's going to help you through that? And it might be nothing. It might be no, fine. It's, it's fine. It might be you can have a day off on that day. It could be coming later so that you can, you know, you can go and visit the cemetery or whatever it is. So on the anniversary of a death, an email, something, a card, just something to say we're thinking of you. My work— and I remember I was really surprised, I wasn't expecting it at all— on the anniversary of my daughter's death, they sent me a plant. So they sent this lovely plant, and it came to the house, and there was a card, and it was just like, we're thinking of you. And that came— it was so unexpected, but it felt— it, it was such a lovely thing to do because I just didn't know. You, you kind of think people forget about, about what's happened, and grief stays with you, and it stays with you forever. But it's just acknowledging that there's points in the year that will be very, very hard. And I think probably actually the last thing is is in terms of policy. A lot of organizations obviously have employees, employee assistance programs, and people on hand that can help. With employee assistance programs, I think it's really important that it's not, it's not just seen as the only thing to do. You know, you don't want to get back to work and they just go, we've got an employee assistance program, they're going to deal with it. They're people you don't even know. It has to be It has to be almost like a bonus thing that's available if you want it. The organization itself should have things in place. So a lot of people, you know, where they've got people like mental health first aiders, well-being champions, those people could be involved in it, or even separate, just a few separate people who are trained to literally just sit, listen to bereaved employees' bereavement. By the whatever you want to call them, something that is there specifically that links to bereavement rather than, you know, rather than it just being go to the mental health first aider, they're going to help you. They're great, but they might not quite have the right skills or the knowledge to deal with that person. So it's adding on the right things, and these are little things that can be added on to help bereaved employees. But essentially everyone who's going back to work should have a plan for their first day, their first week, And so on. Everyone who's going back to work should have something in place where you know they might have speak spoken to occupational health. They might have already done all these things, and I think it's it's not seeing it as something so different that everything has to change. The feelings, the emotions, all of those things will be very similar because anyone returning to work after a period of time will have certain things that they're going to be apprehensive about or they're going to need. So it's the same thing, but it's just having, I think, that extra sensitivity around what it— why it is that that employee has been off work, to make sure that actually the process is really smooth. And it means that that person is integrated back to work in a way that is, is easier for them and is going to work for them and the organization. And again, that's, that's where that openness training, understanding needs to come into it.
Leanne ElliottOf course, we've, we've focused on this very much, you know, for the individual. What are the consequences, or, you know, that positive to an organization who manages this well?
Maria GeorgiouI think you'll, you'll have— and I think I've mentioned it before— increased productivity. So everyone around you will be able to work in a way that doesn't actually disrupt What's going on? Your day-to-day work. There shouldn't really be a huge disruption. Okay, maybe someone's going to be in a bit later, but as long as everyone is involved, then actually there's that understanding there that means that work can just carry on without it feeling disrupted or without people feeling aggrieved that they might be doing more, perhaps a little bit more initially. So it's your employees are going to be happier. Happy employees lead to happier outcomes, better outcomes. So we know, we know that it will mean that actually the person who's returning to work probably won't need to take sick time, sick days off. I've spoken to so many people again in this situation who have ended up feeling that they need time out, they need time off, and they end up going off sick because they don't know how they can, how they can get that time off, or they haven't got enough time left, enough annual leave to take. So instead, they just resort to getting to going off sick. And that, that just leads to bigger problems for, for an organization. So you're going to have less sick, sick time. And I think if you approach this, and actually any, any issue that involves a person's well-being, So, you know, someone who's maybe returning to work after a mental health problem or who's going through any kind of emotional turmoil in their personal life. If it's dealt with in a way that actually feels really supportive, you're actually going to have people who aren't going to be afraid to speak up. So they're going to feel comfortable enough to be able to say, I'm not feeling well. So great, I need a little bit of time. You're just going to be in an environment that actually works better for everyone. If others who aren't obviously going through the same thing can see that that person is being supported, they're going to feel more comfortable about working where they are and about speaking up about problems that perhaps they're encountering. And that's not to say that suddenly everyone's having this kind of group of, oh, I'm going through this, I'm going through that. It's just showing that there's mechanisms in place that are there to support someone who's going through whatever it is. We spend so much time at work; the majority of our time is spent at work. So we need to be able to feel supported, feel happy. So important feeling happy. It sounds so simple. If you're not happy with what you're doing, it's going to affect your physical health. Your mental health, and it's going to affect others around you. So being able to feel that sense of happiness at work is absolutely vital. And that can only happen if the right things are in place to help those employees, to help those employees who are going through stuff at that time. If you're showing a nurturing, supportive environment, then it's going to actually— it's going to impact everyone and the way they feel. Yeah.
Al ElliottI think that business owners and leaders often fly by the seat of their pants in this kind of situation, so these tips are perfect if you want to create a guide to follow. Obviously, Maria has had 2 very traumatic losses in the last few years, so Leanne asked her for some closing advice on helping people who have dealt with loss, especially when it comes to the obviously very difficult time of Christmas. We're also going to hear about the kind of work Maria does with organisations and also how to get in touch with her if you want to work with her.
Leanne ElliottIf there is anybody listening who perhaps is going into their first Christmas having lost a loved one, is there any message you'd have for them?
Maria GeorgiouGive yourself time. I think allow yourself to feel what you're feeling. It's perfectly natural to feel unsettled at this time of year. It's a time of year where everyone is— everything's about family, everything's about being together, and I think having a person missing is, is really difficult. And I think it's just being— just allowing yourself to do what you want to do. So if you don't want to do a big Christmas dinner, don't do a big Christmas dinner. Do what works for you. And I think that's, that's the main thing. Don't allow pressure from others to tell you, oh, you're being miserable, it's going to make you feel worse if you don't come to a 50-person Christmas dinner at, you know, Aunt Hilda's place. It doesn't matter. So the main thing is doing what's right for you and just communicating it in a simple way. I'm not up to this right now. I'm going to do this. So it's just sticking to your— what's going to work for you. And if you're feeling really awful, if it's really hard, talk to someone. Find someone you trust and talk. Tell them how you're feeling. And that actually could— that can take the whole weight off your shoulders.
Leanne ElliottTell us, Maria, more about the work you're doing today. to support individuals and organizations with bereavement?
Maria GeorgiouLots around listening training. That's been a really important thing. And having people that— employees, not just employees, actually, we're doing this in the community as well— but having people who are trained to listen. And that literally, it's a hard thing to do. People want to listen and give advice and tell people what to do. But actually, quite often, you just need to listen. to someone and it makes them feel better. So a lot around listening, listening training, and having people who are trained listeners in place that someone can go to if they just, they just want to talk. So we're doing that training around understanding bereavement and grief. So that's really, really important. And men's mental health, which is a big one. So again, it's around training, thinking about how to how to reduce stress and how to get men talking. So there's a lot of talking and listening involved. Getting men talking about their mental health is a really difficult one. Men also behave— tend to behave differently around bereavement. So that's been really interesting. A lot of the groups that I've attended or spoken at, men don't come, or a man will come and it'll be really unusual. And their experiences do tend to be quite different. So work around getting men talking and feeling it's okay for them to talk about, about these issues. And then probably the biggest— the big thing, final thing, looking at overall well-being and happiness in the workplace and in, in kind of everyday life. So looking at scientifically proven strategies that can help employees and employers have happier employees that can obviously help with productivity, loyalty, and so on in the workplace. We've got a website, so it's www.emgeag.org. So that's where all the information is.
Al ElliottWell, there you go. There's a masterclass in how to deal with a bereavement.
Leanne ElliottIf you have been affected by any of the themes in this episode, support is available. If you are in the UK, Samaritans— samaritans.org, visit their website, or you can call for free 116 123 24/7. Mind also has some excellent resources, mind.org.uk. And Cruise Bereavement Support, you can call 0808 808 1677 or visit cruise.org.uk. I will leave all that in the show notes along with other resources for our listeners in the US, including the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline And Grief Share, and also some global resources so you can access help wherever you're listening.
Al ElliottJoin us again next Thursday where we are bringing you a social media superstar, the incredible Cody Green, who's a TikTok sensation and a mental health advocate with almost 2 million followers. He's genuinely the talk of the town with both the USA Today and even Saturday Night Live referencing his amazing dog Luna, and he's had more than 50 million views so far in this candid episode. Cody shares his experience of living with schizophrenia and how, with the right support, people with this diagnosis can thrive in the workplace.
Leanne ElliottIf you can't wait a week, then don't worry, you can join us next Tuesday for your weekly fix of workplace news, those spicy hot takes from our expert panelists, and of course our famous workplace surgery, our weekly workplace surgery where Al puts your tough questions to me. Until then, make sure you have subscribed to the show on whatever platform you get your podcast, and if you really want supporters, consider posting on LinkedIn about how much you learned from this episode. Be sure to tag Maria. Oh, and check the show notes as well for my email address, all the contact details if you want to get into the show, and as I've mentioned, all the resources you need if you are looking for some extra support this time of year.
Al ElliottDefinitely a week to check out the show notes.
Leanne ElliottSo thank you for listening, um, and maybe just keep listening on this one. We've got a little something for See you after the music.
Al ElliottSee you in a second.
Leanne ElliottSo normally at this point, we'd put some little bloopers in here for you. If you've not listened before, you've got some catching up to do. They're usually quite funny and very, very silly. What I thought I'd do this week, because bloopers didn't seem quite right with the vibe of the episode, and we didn't actually have many this week, is just to kind of mention that one of the things that some people who are grieving feel is guilty when they do find themselves, enjoying themselves, having fun, having a nice time. And moments like that may well occur over the holidays, and that's okay. You can indulge in those moments. So if you have been reflecting on, on that episode and need maybe a little bit of something lighter, um, to shift that mood— and it's okay to shift that mood— then, then I've got a little something for you. Listeners will know, regular listeners will know that a few months ago we interviewed, um, Ed Williams, who's the CEO and founder of Candy Kittens, said Candy Kittens. I asked him what the best sweet in the world was, and he said it was his Candy Kittens sour watermelon. The team were very kind enough to send us a few samples of the sweets, but because we have been traveling, we've not been able to get our hands on them yet. But whilst on said travels, we did come across a packet in, I think it was like a, was it a card shop?
Al ElliottYeah, I think it was, yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo anyway, so we thought we'd try them. We'll see if this is your favorite sweet. We'll be the judge of that, Ed. Now I should say that these are a bit of promo for Candy Kittens. These are all vegan, um, all plant-based.
Al ElliottThank you very much.
Leanne ElliottSee what they look like. They're quite cute, aren't they?
Al ElliottOh, they're not as sour as I thought.
Leanne ElliottI'm not mad about that.
Al ElliottMm-hmm. This makes good telly, isn't it? Watching people watching us eat.
Leanne ElliottTasty. Oh, they're getting more sour now.
Al ElliottThere you go. That's what you want. Look out for those. Approved. This message is approved by Leanne.
Leanne ElliottCandy kittens are approved by Truth, Lies and Work podcast. Delicious. Thank you again for listening, and we will see you next week.
Al ElliottThank you, Ed, for the sweets. Bye-bye.