Episode 159 · 2 January 2025 · 38:36
Expert predictions for 2025 (Part 2): Futureproof careers, leadership and well-being
Expert predictions for 2025 (Part 2): Futureproof careers, leadership and well-being
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Dr. Audrey Tang on hope labour and invisible work
John Lee Dumas on becoming your own advocate
Katie O'Malley on the childcare crisis
Rob Kalwarowsky on the fall of toxic leadership
Leanne's prediction: a reckoning for fractured cultures
Al's prediction: the AI bubble will burst
Bringing it all together and wrap-up
Show notes
Expert Predictions for 2025 (Part 2): Futureproof Careers, Leadership & Well-Being
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) are back with part two of their Predictions for 2025 series. This time, they're shifting focus from the tech and AI predictions of part one to the human side of work — toxic leadership, the childcare crisis, invisible labour, and what it really takes to futureproof your career.
Featuring predictions from Dr. Audrey Tang, John Lee Dumas, Katie O'Malley, and Rob Kalwarowsky — plus Al and Leanne's own bold (and slightly controversial) takes on what's coming.
🔮 The Predictions
1. Dr. Audrey Tang — Hope Labour & Invisible Work
Audrey flags two hidden workplace trends that could fuel widespread burnout in 2025 if left unaddressed. Hope labour is the work people do for free (or exposure) in the hope it'll lead to a big break — think performers, creatives, and increasingly, professionals chasing visibility. Invisible work is all the unaccounted-for labour that keeps things running: the quick favours, the email replies, the emotional heavy-lifting that never shows up on a productivity dashboard.
The fix? Better recognition and fair compensation — and being honest with yourself about what you're doing for free and why.
2. John Lee Dumas — Become Your Own Advocate
Career success in 2025 will require individuals to build personal platforms and expertise — whether you're freelancing, running a business, or working inside a traditional role. JLD (host of Entrepreneurs on Fire) frames it not as leaving employment, but as becoming an entrepreneur of your own career. The people who thrive will be the ones who own their narrative, their skills, and their visibility.
3. Katie O'Malley — The Childcare Crisis
Katie makes a bold prediction: employers will need to step up on childcare the way they did with healthcare benefits. With the US Surgeon General calling the childcare crisis a public health issue, companies that act early — offering meaningful childcare solutions — won't just support working parents; they'll gain a serious competitive advantage in talent attraction and retention.
4. Rob Kalwarowsky — The Fall of Toxic Leadership
Gen Z is driving a cultural shift, plain and simple: they refuse to tolerate toxic bosses. Companies with unsupportive leadership will lose talent, while empathetic leaders will thrive. The stats on the health impact of toxic leadership never fail to shock — and as Leanne puts it, "we cannot allow toxic leaders."
🗣️ Al & Leanne's Own Predictions
Leanne: 2025 will bring a reckoning for fractured workplace cultures. RTO (return to office) mandates won't fix what's actually broken — leaders will need to focus on trust, empathy, and genuine connection to navigate the challenges ahead. And brace yourself: things may get worse before they get better.
Al: The AI bubble is going to burst. Drawing parallels to the dotcom boom and bust, Al predicts a wave of snake oil and overhyped AI solutions that don't deliver — followed by a painful correction. Adding AI to your organisation just because everyone else is? That's the equivalent of putting a spoiler on a Fiesta.
💡 Key Takeaways
- Hidden work is killing well-being. Hope labour and invisible work are eroding trust and driving burnout. Businesses must address these hidden costs — and individuals need to get clear on what they're doing for free and why.
- Own your career narrative. Individual advocacy and expertise-building will be essential for career resilience in an ever-changing job market — whether you work for yourself or someone else.
- The childcare crisis is a public health issue. Employers who act early will gain a competitive advantage in attracting and retaining working parents.
- Toxic leadership isn't sustainable. Empathy and support will define the next generation of leaders — and Gen Z deserves credit for driving that shift.
📌 Missed Part One?
If you haven't heard part one of our Predictions for 2025 series yet, scroll back in the feed to our December 28th episode, where we explored how technology and AI will reshape work. And stay subscribed — there's more to come.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, we are. Welcome back and happy 2025.
Leanne ElliottHappy New Year.
Al ElliottYou have picked the perfect time to join us though, because we're bringing you part 2 of our 2025 predictions.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you joined us for part 1 before the new year, you have already heard some really interesting predictions From our experts, Oliver Yonchev talked about AI agents working together like digital teams. We're in the future. Will Gian Grande explained why human skills are becoming even more valuable. Iman Ismail shared her thoughts on how AI will transform marketing, and Chris Savage predicted we'll finally figure out what works with remote work.
Al ElliottBut today's episode might be even more provocative. We're exploring the human side of work, going from toxic leadership to the childcare crisis. So coming up, we've got renowned psychologist Dr. Audrey Tang, friend of the show. She reveals 2 hidden workplace problems that could explode in 2025. Entrepreneurs on Fire host John Lee Dumas— yes, JLD, he's on the show— he challenges everything you think you know about career building. And Rob Kalvarovsky shares some shocking statistics about the real cost of bad bosses.
Leanne ElliottWe also have career expert Katie O'Malley, who makes a bold prediction about how companies will finally solve the childcare crisis. And also, stick around until the end. Al and I also have some predictions of our own that might So let's kick things off with Dr.
Al ElliottAudrey Tang, who sees 2 workplace trends that need urgent attention in 2025, one called hope labour and one called invisible work. There's 2 things I wanted to bring up, which are things that I just see rumblings on the grapevine over.
Leanne ElliottOne is the problem of something called hope labour, and I hope that is going to be addressed more in 2025. Now, hope labor is something that is very known in the arts world where you work for free for experience because you might get your next big break. You're playing on someone's hope to get them to do the work.
Al ElliottAnd unfortunately, what happens is if this is happening too much, people who are employing these performers or workers for free will say, well, why should I pay someone their actual wage or what they're really worth?
Leanne ElliottBecause I can get so many people to do it for free because they're hoping it's going going to be their next big break.
Al ElliottI'm hoping the education around paying what you're worth, not working for free, or at least understanding if I do work for free, what am I getting out of it in return, and being aware of that— if the education surrounding that is greater, that can make a huge difference.
Leanne ElliottBecause, um, I can't remember who it was, but it was on LinkedIn.
Al ElliottSomeone did a really good, um, grid, like the, the quadrant grid.
Leanne ElliottAnd it was working for free or working paid. That was the one axis. And the other one was, does it benefit me or does it not benefit me?
Al ElliottAnd if it's paid and benefits me, yep, no question.
Leanne ElliottBrilliant. Let's do it.
Al ElliottIf it's paid and doesn't benefit me, then you've got other considerations because maybe you do need to pay those bills. Therefore, great.
Leanne ElliottDo it, but maybe with those provisos. If it's unpaid and it benefits you, again, it may well be worth doing. It's why we do things like podcasts and TV shows and things. We appear as guests because it builds our profile. But if it's unpaid and it doesn't benefit you, it's pretty much an outright no.
Al ElliottBut because we may be people pleasers, we may worry it's going to harm us, We do tend to go and say yes to things and not assert our boundaries. So I think hope labor, with a bit more education or a bit more discussion on it, is something that we can begin to address. When is it right to work for free, and when do we need to say absolutely not?
Leanne ElliottAnd then another thing kind of related to that is something called invisible work. And invisible work is all that work that goes on over emails. Could you just— would you mind— could you fix And in the IT world, for example, it's something that's ticketed. You know, you've taken your ticket, you're waiting for that person to fix it. That can be counted. That can be put down on a productivity spreadsheet. But who wants to go back through all of their emails to say, yeah, but I actually spent 3 hours doing this for somebody else?
Al ElliottThat's invisible work. And that's not accounted for. And that brings us right back to burnout again.
Leanne ElliottThat can well be contributing.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottTo, to burnout.
Al ElliottBecause if work is invisible, you're not getting praised for it, you're not getting recognized for it, you're not getting remunerated for it, then why are we doing it?
Leanne ElliottIsn't that working for free again? So there's that kind of trick with it as well, that even if it benefits me short term, that might then slip into I'm not getting paid and I'm— it's not benefiting me quite quickly.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. So this is where we then have to either make it very clear Doing this one for free. This is the project, the end.
Leanne ElliottOr we end up having to say no, and then people eventually realize that perhaps, oh, maybe I should pay them what they're worth this time. But it's really hard because I think sometimes you can say no, and then that employer will go and bring in somebody else for free or for a very low rate.
Al ElliottYeah. And then not have a good experience with them and then lose faith in the whole thing in the first place, forgetting how great you were originally. And so that can be really problematic as well.
Leanne ElliottThere's— it's quite a complex issue to unpack.
Al ElliottNo matter what Dr. Audrey Tang says, it's always interesting. But the idea that we need to get better at recognizing when work benefits us versus when we're just working for free on the promise of future opportunities is a really, really interesting idea.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think we've all done it. It's not just about the creative industries anymore, is it? We're seeing this hope labour creep into all sorts of sectors, whether it be tech startups, corporate internships, and maybe even psychologists with the podcast.
Al ElliottYep. And that point about invisible work, all those quick favours and, you know, the email replies, they're not going to show up on any productivity dashboard, but they eat away at our time and our energy.
Leanne ElliottAnd speaking of taking control of our working lives, our next guest has a bold take on career development. The one and only John Lee Dumas. John Lee Dumas, he's on the show.
Al ElliottJLD's here.
Leanne ElliottI blew Al's mind when I said I'd confirmed JLD.
Al ElliottHe said, I've got— I said, I've got this guy called John, um, entrepreneur something. And I was like, no, yeah, it's not gonna be JLD. It was amazing.
Leanne ElliottIt was. If like me you hadn't heard of John Lee Dumas, you're the only other person in the world that hasn't. Um, John is host of Entrepreneurs on Fire, and he thinks that 2025 is the year we will all become our own advocates, whether we work for ourselves or not.
Al ElliottI am John Lee Dumas, uh, AKA JLD, and I do Entrepreneurs on Fire, which is the only daily podcast in the world that interviews entrepreneurs, literally, not figuratively, 7 days a week. I launched back in 2012, and I like to say that when I launched, I was the best daily podcast in the world interviewing entrepreneurs. I was the worst daily podcast in the world interviewing entrepreneurs because I was the only daily podcast in the world interviewing entrepreneurs. And I love it. I've got to interview over 4,500 inspiring human beings. I learned from every single one of them, and I put them into that book that you mentioned. Because I want to take their genius and compile it for my listeners, for my audience, for anybody that wants to consume that book. So, um, that's my story. My predictions for 2025. Listen, I have a lot of predictions specifically in the AI space because I live in the AI space. I see the AI space. I'm actually taking an AI course right now. I believe in the future of AI. There's going to be some good things, some bad things, some things in the middle, but we're not going to talk about that today because other people have talked about This. So I wanna talk more specifically about something else that I'm seeing in the world coming up in 2025, and that is you must become your own advocate. That is what I'm seeing, um, across the board people doing. They're stepping up, they're owning it, and people that are going into the workplace, they're becoming their own advocate. And how are they doing that? They are becoming a subject matter expert on a topic. They're diving deep on a topic. They're becoming a subject matter expert. And then they're becoming a creator of content around that. Some people love just writing because they hate video. They hate the idea of it. And they're creating great content around, uh, on, on a platform like Medium or Substack or fill in the blank. There's people like myself that have this great idea and I'm going all in on YouTube because of the platform that that is. There's other people that just want to have audio because I think that's an easier platform for various reasons. Like, by the way, I do Entrepreneurs on Fire audio only. And guess what? There's podcast platforms for you doing that. There's people that just want to build their, their, their authority on X or on LinkedIn or on Instagram or on Twitter or in a combination of those things. But my point is, what I'm seeing individuals doing in the workplace is they're building up this authority, this influence as individuals so that if something happens, if their job gets replaced by AI, or if they get fired for some reason, or if they see opportunities elsewhere, And they wanna compete for that opportunity, they can take to that op— that new opportunity, that new job saying, hey, look at what I've built. I'm a self-starter who's been doing this, who's becoming an authority figure, an influencer. Yes, it's in a micro niche and maybe I don't have 1,000 or 100,000 or a million viewers or listeners, and I shouldn't. And kind of, by the way, to your point, like, it's very kind of you to say that, like, I might have a million subscribers in, uh, MicroStrategy today. I doubt it. And guess what? I'm totally fine with that because there's not a million people in the world that are interested in this topic. And that's okay. I would rather— I'm going to be able to capture probably 50+% of this market, which is to me more appealing than the numbers overall, because that's what I'm going for. I'm going for a micro niche that I can dominate. I'd much rather have 25,000 views of a video on a topic like MicroStrategy than hundreds of thousands of views on like, oh, there's a double rainbow. Because that double rainbow, that's not helping me long-term. That didn't help that individual who went viral long-term on YouTube for that video. Doing work that matters does. Adding value to people's lives does. And I'm seeing people do that on individual levels, even if they're inside of a corporation. Um, you know, for years we've called that intrapreneur. You can still be an entrepreneur within a company, within an organization, within a job. I'm loving this. It sounds so— it sounds like you're saying become an expert, but be almost career agnostic in that you're not necessarily an expert for a particular brand. You're an expert in a particular thing. And you might happen to work at Nvidia now, but then you might go off and work for Tesla, like next year, and you still maintain the same audience. Is that what we're saying? You take those skills with you, you maintain that audience, you take those skills, and then you prove to somebody like Tesla. Do you think Michael— do you think Elon Musk would think highly and would probably have it be known that he wants to hire people that are self-starters that have been able to build something that they're passionate about. That's just such a resume builder that you can show people that you're actually doing the work. Bit of context here. John Lee Dumas has had 175 million listens to his podcast. To give you a— to give you a— we've had about 1.7 million, 1.8 million. 175. Anyway, I will stop fanboying about JLD. Carry on, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottHe's cool. He is cool. And what I really liked about his idea was that we're hopefully moving beyond traditional career paths. I think that's been bubbling away for a few years, but I can see the rest of the, the 2020s this really being a thing. It's not about climbing the corporate ladder anymore, it's about building your own platform.
Al ElliottYeah, and it's cool how he frames it. It's not like leaving traditional employment, But as becoming an entrepreneur within whatever role you're in, it's about owning your expertise and your audience.
Leanne ElliottSo of course, building that platform gets a lot harder when you're juggling work and family responsibilities, which brings us perfectly on to our next prediction. Katie O'Malley thinks 2025 could be the year we finally address one of the biggest challenges facing working parents.
Al ElliottOur Surgeon General of the United States, about 6 6, 8 weeks ago, released a statement saying that our next public health epidemic is actually going to be for the mental well-being of parents in America. And so we need to figure out, and employers need to figure out the childcare crisis. And it's not for the mother to figure out, or just the father to figure out when we take care of our children. Everybody benefits. And when we know that our children are being taken care of while we're at work, everyone benefits. And so for a long time in, in the United States, health insurance being tied to employment was not a thing. We really saw this starting to happen in the '50s and then really taking hold in the '70s. And we got to a place where a prospective employee is not going to apply for a job or want to work for an employer that doesn't provide healthcare benefits, right? It just doesn't make sense anymore. Not that our system makes a whole lot of sense to begin with, but that is an entirely different conversation. So what I would encourage employers to think about is at some point there were early adopters of health insurance as a benefit for employment. We need to do the same thing with childcare. And in the same way we have employee-sponsored, employer-sponsored healthcare in this country. I want to be advocating from the rooftops for employee-sponsored childcare. That does not mean that if you are a tech company that you now need to get into the business of providing childcare, but to provide those benefits and to almost create a market where childcare facilities know that they're going to get funded through employers for their employees to take their children to a place where they're going to be safe and protected, and learning and cared for all day long. I could keep talking about that for another, for another 15 minutes too. But I think if we really want to tackle the mental health crisis of employees, we need to be looking at it through leadership development for all employees from the moment they walk to the door. And then Just, I'm gonna say, someone step forward and be one of the first companies to offer employee-sponsored childcare to your employees. You know what strikes me about that, Leigh? It's not just about supporting parents, it's about recognizing that childcare affects everyone in the workplace. When your teammates are stressed about childcare, it's going to impact the entire team.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. And I think it really shows how workplace well-being isn't just about offering meditation apps, it's actually about tackling fundamental challenges that create stress in the first place. And speaking of workplace stress, our next prediction might ruffle some feathers. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottRob Kalvarovsky thinks 2025 could be the beginning of the end For toxic leadership. Oh, Rob, I hope so.
Al ElliottMy prediction for 2025. So we're seeing this and we've seen this for a while. We've seen a lot of Gen Zs who are not putting up with asshole bosses anymore. And we've seen it with quick quit talks are a global phenomenon. People are setting boundaries. They're not working in traditional ways anymore. And that's only growing as We, as more Gen Zs are coming into the workforce, and even we're seeing the pushback from asshole bosses where they're wanting folks to come back to the office. They're demanding these types of things and folks are leaving organizations like that. That trend will continue. And I suspect that most, some of those cultures that are old school and that are demanding these things and are led by people who are not great, maybe toxic managers, they're going to start losing talent. And that talent is going to go towards leaders who are supportive, who are empathetic, who do offer choice. And that trend is going to be a huge trend in 2025. The war for talent is only going to get bigger. And the folks that are the great leaders are going to get that talent. I know in your book, there's a very surprising message behind why someone is an asshole boss. I'm wondering, without giving away the whole secret, could you tell us a little bit more about why someone might be an asshole boss? Asshole bosses are not created. So it's, it's not like, you know, you go to your interview, your job interview, and they ask you where you want to be in 5 years. And you sit there and you go, I want to be the greatest asshole of all time. It's, it's, we end up in those ways because we have parts of us that were formed through childhood and teenage years that they learn certain behaviors. They learn certain ways of being. And then when we end up as we're a manager, we're getting pressure from all ends of the spectrum because we see with the data now that Middle managers have never been under more pressure. They've never been burnt out as much as they are now. There's so much that people are cutting budgets, they're cutting people, and the managers are the ones who have to deal with this. That is incredibly hard. And what that does is it puts you in a place of fear. And that fear is where some of these bad boss behaviors come out. And of course, people, they, they also ascend in organizations because some of these bad boss behaviors, specifically ones around abusive and narcissism, they actually gain power and influence in organizations, of course, toxic ones, but they gain power and influence and those folks rise to the top. And that's why you see toxic leadership filtered down through organizations. This is actually a huge problem. And so asshole bosses don't just impact themselves and their individual teams. They create a toxic environment for departments, for companies. It ripples out. And if we look at some of the research, the first thing is companies that have destructive leaders, they perform worse. So the productivity goes down, profitability goes down, wellness goes down, and happiness goes down. These, of course, are really, really important. There's a study from Stanford University that talks about how the ways that companies manage their people is the 5th leading cause of death in the United States, equivalent of 120,000 deaths per year. That's an incredibly high number. Toxic cultures increase the risk of depression by 300%, which of course leads to additional suicides and other things. And so toxic leadership not only destroys the company and their ability to reach long-term goals, it also destroys people's lives. And that's why this is so important.
Leanne ElliottAnd we cannot allow toxic leaders The statistics about the health impact of toxic leadership never fail to surprise me. And the idea that workplace management is the 5th leading cause of death in the US, my goodness, that's not just a workplace issue. That's, that's a societal issue. It's almost a public health crisis.
Al ElliottIt is. And you know what, I think Gen Z deserves a lot of credit here, which is something not many podcasters of my age will say, but they're not just complaining about bad bosses. They're actually taking action. They're going to the polls. actively choosing to work for leaders who show the empathy and support that's required. They're actually taking action rather than just complaining about it. Not looking at you, potentially millennials and younger Gen X. Sorry.
Leanne ElliottHey, but no, it does, and it reminds me of what Dr. Audrey Tang said at the start about recognizing the work that truly benefits us. And I think that extends into the environment we're choosing to put ourselves in. And maybe that is the connecting thread with these predictions, people are getting better at identifying what they need from work and demanding those changes.
Al ElliottSpeaking of predictions, Leanne, we haven't shared ours yet. Do you want to go first?
Leanne ElliottI mean, workplace in 2025, who knows? Buckle in, kids. Um, I, and I do think, and I don't mean to be like doom and gloom, but I do think 2025 is going to be the year where everything comes to a head. I mean, we can't sugarcoat it, the last few years have been relentless for business owners, for business leaders. In the UK, we've had Brexit, we've had the pandemic recovery, we've had elections that have literally divided nations, economical upheavals, AI layoffs, wars shaking global stability, and, you know, the constant government shakeups that we're seeing, whether it's swinging one way or the other. It's been disruption after disruption, and I think People and businesses are fried. I think this so-called period of recovery after the pandemic is less of recovery and more when really the cracks start to show. And I think we're seeing that everywhere— anger, frustration. Some of the comments we've been getting on our socials recently, people are angry, and we're not even that, like, controversial, I don't think. We're seeing generational tensions that continue to, to go on, ideological divides, even the resentment over remote work versus office life. That That's been a big theme of 2024, and I think leaders will quickly realize in 2025 that those quick fixes like the RTO mandates or slapping on the superficial benefits won't address the underlying problems, particularly with the RTO mandates.
Al ElliottRTO being return to office.
Leanne ElliottReturn to work, or yeah, return to office. I think a lot of people are thinking that's going to fix the culture problems, but it, it won't. Culture will still be fractured, burnout will still be sky high, and employee engagement will continue to decline. And I think 2025 is going to be a wake-up call that the root causes of these issues aren't things like remote work or expensive perks. It's the lack of basic human connection, and that can be done virtually as well as in person. So with that, what's going to happen? I think, I think business owners are going to be forced to really strip it back to basics. And we're talking about real basics. We're talking about addressing conflict, building trust, building teams, leading with empathy. And I hope— and I think it has to be the case— that psychology is going to be key here. We know that all the studies have shown that people thrive when they feel heard, when they feel valued, when they have a sense of agency and control. But when their frustrations are dismissed, then these tensions explode. And going back to what I said, already very, very tense. Some of the research on anger and burnout does tell us that these unresolved emotions don't just disappear, they fester. And you'll know that anecdotally if you don't deal with something. They fester and harm everything. They harm our sense of self, our sense of identity, our confidence, team morale, productivity, and even remote work. And I can't say enough, it isn't the enemy that some people make it out to be. It's about the context you create. And when leaders provide that purpose, that clarity, that connection, remote teams flourish. But when the environment is chaotic, it's toxic. The distance magnifies that disconnection. So it's not about remote work failing, and it's not about these return-to-office mandates that are going to fix it. It's going to be leadership. And I think by 2025, I hope leaders— and I think this will be the case— will just be— get to a point, and probably the latter end of the year, where they're just desperate for some kind of calm, some kind of stability, some kind of control internally. Because externally, brace yourself, next year is going to be chaotic in terms of politics, in terms of economics, in terms of everything. So I think there will be a shift towards simplicity, and that focus will go to the basics. There'll be less focus on the flashy stuff, even AI, dare I say it. And I think more workplaces are going to focus on trust, purpose, genuine connection. These will be the priorities. We're going to— priorities, and we're going to go back much more, I think, to values-based businesses values-based leadership. And let me tell you, the leaders who get this— people like you listening, because the reason you listen to the podcast is because you get it— the ones like you who will really understand how people function, what drives them, and engage the right experts to help will stand out. And it's not about— when I say going back to basics, it's not about going to old ways of doing things. It's about finding those things that unite people in these really crazy times. And I think that's going to be the key theme we're going to hear people talking about towards the, the mid of 2025, I think, is how do we unite people. And the only way to do that is if we go back to the basics of human psychology.
Al ElliottI totally agree. And obviously I can't talk to the psychology side of it, but if you look on any kind of social network, you look at any kind of news, the division, it's almost, it's almost always us versus them. Poor versus rich. Um, there's now a big thing, US versus Europe, people saying that Europe is just so behind for these reasons. Then it's boomers versus millennials because the boomers have got all the wealth. It's an us and them, and that is sad to see. And I really hope that that's going to, as you say, come to a head and it's going to stop, because that is what's creating this huge divide and that is what's spilling over into our work lives.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think, as I said, brace yourself. I think things are going to get worse before they get better next year. But my hope would be that by this time next year, when we're doing our predictions for 2026, it'll be a much more positive outlook. And hopefully the first steps have been made in this systemic shift that we need in organizational life, in society, to actually get things functioning a bit more healthily. Anyway, enough from me rabbiting on. I'll get off my soapbox. Al, what do you, what do you reckon? What's coming in 2025?
Al ElliottWell, there's a lot of predictions around AI, and although I am very kind of for AI, I think what we're gonna see is the repeat of the dot-com bubble of about 1999, 2000. I think we're gonna see that with an AI bubble. Um, there's gonna be a boom, but back— the thing is, the leaders of today who are building AI, uh, based platforms, AI-based wrappers, all the AI stuff, they're probably too young. They probably weren't born back when there was the dot-com bubble. Just to remind anyone who doesn't remember that, essentially what happened is that— I think Pets.com is the, is the biggest story around that— but people, companies would raise huge, huge amounts of money and then go and spend millions on boardrooms, inflatable furniture, um, on slides, on, you know, just creating these amazing offices without actually worrying about making any kind of money, about any kind of revenue or profit. And I can see the same thing happening with AI. I can see that anyone who's got an idea and has got access to the OpenAI API, then they're gonna build something, go out and fundraise for that, raise millions of dollars, uh, for that particular thing. And then the people are just gonna jump in and go, yeah, of course I want to invest in that. Of course I wanna invest in that. And the leaders and, and the owners are not gonna be concentrating on how, whether they make any money from it. All they're concentrating is how much cash they can actually raise. And we are gonna see, I think over the next 12 to 18 months, we are gonna see a huge crash and burn of some of what might be potentially some of the best ideas right now, but we are gonna see them crash and burn. I'm not talking about the fundamental, I'm not talking about the underlying technology of OpenAI, of Perplexity, of Claude, which is by, I can't remember the name, but it's, we're not talking about that. We're talking about the people who are building on top of that. If we take the, if we take the, the dot-com bubble as the same sort of like idea, Then the idea would be that the underlying technology of the .com, if you put a .com after your company name, then suddenly you're worth 10 to 100 times more. It's the same with this. If you have a product and you go powered by AI, suddenly it's worth 10 to 100 times more. And that's what people are beginning doing. We are going to see, in my opinion, we are going to see some people creating some incredible stuff. And I think agentic AI, which is what Oliver Yonchev talked about on the last episode.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI think that's gonna be a big one, and that's gonna have a lot of impact on the people. But hopefully, as I've always said, hopefully it's gonna allow us to move up one level, stop worrying about the grunt work and actually doing some more value work. But we're also gonna see huge trillions of dollars of investment going up in smoke because someone's got an idea. Look at WeWork. What was that worth? $57 billion at one point, and then it's just burnt to the ground figuratively. I don't think— I don't think literally, but metaphorically.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBurnt to the ground. That's what we're gonna see, I think. And there's gonna be a lot of snake oil. There's gonna be a lot of people out there who are saying, this is the new thing, AI can do this, promising all the stuff. And they say, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And then they realize the runway, which is what startups talk about in terms of how much cash they've got to survive, the runways will be getting shorter and shorter, and then they're just gonna crash and burn. And then the, the founders, if they, if they're genuine, they will go back. Like Uber, I think was one of the ones which almost crashed at the very beginning and then went back and built it up. But there's gonna be lots of people out there who are just gonna trouser a load of money and go, great, thank you very much, I'm out. And investors are gonna be left pants around their ankles. It's— I think Warren Buffett always says that you can always tell how— now I'm gonna butcher this quote, but it's something like, you can tell the great investors when the tide goes out. Now, it's a terrible rendition. I'm sorry, Warren, if you're listening, just send us an email with what you actually said. But essentially what he's saying is when the tide goes out, it just points out who's actually not wearing any underwear.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd that is essentially what's going to happen, I think, with AI.
Leanne ElliottThat's interesting, Al, comparing it to the dot-com boom. I'm just about old enough to remember that. I think AI is going to be a big risk factor for businesses next year because I think owner-led businesses, entrepreneurial businesses are going to want to jump on these new, shiny, exciting things and can see their potential in terms of improving the productivity of the business, the capability of their business, the reach of their business. But we can't forget that this is a technology, and when we integrate technology with people, there needs to be a change process. And if you've already got fractures within your business and infighting within your business, or a lack of, of collaboration within your business, change is even harder. So it's going to require a really smart change management process to actually implement AI effectively in the majority of small businesses. And let's be honest, that's why we see 78% of change programs, whether it's a digital transformation or organizational transformation, fail because that, that isn't really thought through. So yeah.
Al ElliottSuch a good point. And I think that it's, it's the equivalent of— I think adding AI to your, to your organization is the equivalent of saying let's have a baby and to save our marriage. And I think that, I think that if you go, right, well, if we just add AI and we just automate everything, then it's going to make things better. If fundamentally your people are unhappy, If fundamentally your culture is bad, and if fundamentally your business isn't really, isn't really growing because of your people, adding AI is like having a baby. You're just going to end up 100 times worse.
Leanne ElliottWell said. Well said. You've got some nice analogies going on this episode.
Al ElliottI put the Al in analogy, not the anal.
Leanne ElliottHappy New Year.
Al ElliottHappy New Year.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, moving on. Looking at all these predictions, together, I think there is an equal sense of caution and optimism. And I think there is a theme that 2025 is gonna be a year, hopefully, I think it'll be towards the back end of it, but will be the year that we'll start to stop accepting that that's just how things are and actually start building organizations, building workplaces that actually work for humans. And my slight theory is we're gonna have to go, as we've just been talking about, through that pain of, failed AI implementation to realize that actually we need to put humans first. But, you know, if it's a means to an end, I'm sure it'll figure itself out.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. I think we have to go through that. We absolutely have to, because otherwise, how are you going to prove that it's not working? I think there's things like that. We've talked about the invisible work. We talk about supporting working parents. We talked about choosing better leaders. We talked about building different platforms. The whole, the whole point of any kind of organization is if you put your people first and they are genuinely the advocates for your company, then you almost can't fail unless you're just buying like inflatable furniture for your people. But if you genuinely, if your people genuinely care, then it doesn't matter whether you're using AI, it doesn't matter what you're doing. If you put your people first, then you will succeed. And that's exactly what I think we need.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you did miss part 1 of our predictions, you can go back and find it. It'll be in the feed just a couple back from this one, really. I think it was actually, was it December 20-something? I know, you'll find it. It's called Predictions Part 1. It won't be hard, you're more than capable. And don't forget to join us next Tuesday. We are continuing our Unfiltered series. We've heard from Rory Sutherland, we've heard from John Amici. We've got another psychology legend coming up next Tuesday, Professor Sir Kerry Cooper. A very interesting and intimate conversation about financial well-being, leadership, and what we're getting wrong about all of that, really. And then on Thursday, we're also going to talk about some other things that businesses are getting wrong, but in the hope that you'll start to fix them, right? January, new, new start, fresh start. We will be joined on Thursday by Nora Burns, aka the Undercover Candidate. She will share her unfiltered, unedited thoughts on the state of recruitment— what's working, what's not— and some shocking, shocking experiences she had as an undercover candidate. If you've not heard her before, that's what she did. She went into businesses, pretended to be a candidate. She was She's a FTSE 400 HR leader.
Al ElliottCould be even 200. She's a big cheese.
Leanne ElliottBig cheese in the HR world. So definitely subscribe, do everything you need to do, um, to make sure that you'll hear from Professor Sir Kerry Cooper and Nora Burns next week.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. That's— if you've seen The Undercover Boss, you know the idea of The Undercover Candidate. Okay, so looking forward to seeing you next time. If you haven't subscribed, then please consider subscribing because we'll make sure that we just pop into your app every time we have something to say. See you next time.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye. It never really show up on any productivity dashboard.
Leanne ElliottPut your teeth back in, love.
Al ElliottDribbled a little bit there.
Leanne ElliottAudio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottI'm actually a child psychologist, but there you go. It's New Year. That's what I meant to say. It's a good start, isn't it? First show back. We're here to simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottLet's start all that again because you said science of people.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast. I heard that pickup on my thing.
Al ElliottOh, right.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth—
Al ElliottGot the giggles. Carry on.