Episode 165 · 23 January 2025 · 50:46
165: Why Your Mind is Lying to You (And How to Fight Back) with James Fleming
Featuring James Fleming
165: Why Your Mind is Lying to You (And How to Fight Back) with James Fleming
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What is Motivational Intelligence (MQ)?
How MQ differs from EQ
interview#emotional-intelligence#eq#motivational-intelligence#mq
Self-limiting beliefs — and the sound of your own voice
interview#self-limiting-beliefs#mindset#podcasting#personal-development
Why "why" matters before "how"
A real-world MQ transformation story
Practical steps to break the excuse habit
Failure as a prerequisite for success
interview#failure#success#mindset#resilience
James's honest answer on leaving the corporate world
interview#career-change#corporate#entrepreneurship#personal-story
Why New Year's resolutions don't work and where to find James
Show notes
Why Your Mind Is Lying to You (And How to Fight Back) — with James Fleming
Guest: James Fleming — Managing Director and co-founder of The Power Within Training, author of You Can Have Success or Excuses: You Cannot Have Both, and a man who went from nearly bankrupt to running a multi-million pound business.
Your brain is lying to you. Every day, it tells you stories about what you can't do, why you shouldn't try, and why now isn't the right time. And most of us believe it.
James joins Al and Leanne from the mountains of Northern Italy to unpack Motivational Intelligence (MQ) — the science of identifying and managing the thoughts that don't serve us. He shares how a six-figure oil and gas career nearly ended in bankruptcy, why traditional leadership training so often fails, and how the difference between success and stagnation comes down to one thing: the stories we tell ourselves.
Top 3 Takeaways
Thoughts drive emotions — not the other way around. We can't always control what we feel, but we can choose which thoughts we feed. Managing the narrative in your head is the foundation of motivational intelligence.
Self-limiting beliefs are just stories — and stories can be rewritten. Write down the excuse, challenge the belief, and replace it with a positive affirmation. Small, consistent actions beat grand gestures every time.
Failure isn't the opposite of success — it's a prerequisite. Nobody gets it right first time. The people who win are the ones who refuse to give up, even when they're struggling to put food on the table.
More From James Fleming
- Book, You Can Have Success or Excuses: You Cannot Have Both: amazon.co.uk (available on Amazon, Audible, and Kindle)
- Website — The Power Within Training: thepowerwithintraining.com
- LinkedIn: uk.linkedin.com/in/jamesflemingtpwtd
- Social media: @PowerWithinTraining
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWe are, and we're coming to you from somewhere kind of special today.
Leanne ElliottWe really are. We are actually recording from the Piedmont region in northern Italy, and there's a really important reason for that. As a psychologist, I'm always banging on about how crucial it is to prioritise our mental health and wellbeing, and I think that's especially important during January.
Al ElliottAnd yeah, we've just passed Blue Monday, which is supposedly the darkest and most depressing day in January. That may well be just sort of marketing speak, or someone's just come up with that idea, but there's no denying that January is a little bit dull, a little bit boring, and can be a little bit depressing.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Seasonal affective disorder, or the January blues, they're a very real challenge. So this year we decided to practice what we preach. We've deliberately chosen to start our year by getting into nature. I mean, look at it, it's ridiculous. Reconnecting as both business partners and a couple as well, and really focusing on our goals for And speaking of mental wellbeing and resilience, today's guest is absolutely perfect for this conversation. They really are. We are talking to James Fleming today about something he calls motivational intelligence, which is really interesting because it's all about building that mental resilience that helps us not just survive but actually thrive during challenging times. Now, a couple of thoughts on motivational intelligence, or MQ, as you'll hear James refer to it, from a psychological perspective. MQ itself is relatively new, so there isn't much research on it. research on it. It's emerging, but it is built on solid psychological foundations and theories taken from cognitive behavioral and positive psychology. Of course, as a psychologist, I'm going to say that it does require much more research, but it definitely combines what we know about how our minds process information, how we form and break habits, why stories are far more powerful in changing behavior than facts, and how beliefs about ourselves shape what we can achieve. So what makes MQ so interesting? Well, it's taking all of these well-understood concepts and packaging them up into practical tools for leadership and personal development. So the core idea is actually quite simple: our thoughts control our emotions, not the other way around. So if we can manage our thoughts better, we can manage everything else better too.
Al ElliottJames is doing some great work, and regardless of whether MQ becomes as widely adopted as EQ, for example, I think the idea behind MQ really emphasises something we've always said on the podcast: wellbeing isn't about quick fixes or workplace initiatives. It's about making conscious choices to look after ourselves and each other. And even if that means recording in 4 degrees in the mountains of northern Italy.
Leanne ElliottDon't be fooled. It looks warm and sunny and glorious. It's freezing. Absolutely freezing. And that is exactly why we wanted to bring you this interview at the start of 2025. It really isn't about making New Year resolutions that, let's be honest, you'll probably break by February. It's about understanding how our minds work and using that knowledge to create some lasting change.
Al ElliottSo let's go and join Leanne and James Fleming and learn more about this term MQ. Fair warning, Leanne doesn't go that easy on James, as I'd hope you as a great interviewer wouldn't.
Leanne ElliottJames, welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. I am so, so excited to have this conversation and hopefully provide some really inspiring advice for our listeners as we start 2025. But before we dive in, can you tell us who you are, what you do, and what you're famous for?
James FlemingSo my name is James Fleming. I'm the Managing Director and co-founder of our training and development company called The Power Within Training. We are a leadership development, business growth, we do executive coaching, business coaching, kind of all of that kind of personal and professional development. What are we famous for? Well, 2 words, and it's called motivational intelligence. And it is what we call the 3rd and probably the most important level of intelligence that us as human beings or Homo sapiens actually hold. I don't know, maybe we'll talk a lot More about that as we go through this morning.
Leanne ElliottWe absolutely will. And I think that's where we should, where we should start. What is motivational intelligence?
James FlemingIn a nutshell, is how do we identify and manage what's going on in our head that doesn't serve purpose for ourselves? But more importantly, from a leadership point of view, how do we do that for people within our business? And that's motivational intelligence, is being able to sit and have a conversation with someone and really understand by a series of questions And there's obviously a framework around what we've created, and enabling us to really find out, you know, what's going on in their mind? What's going on in their life? How can I help them? Because, you know, we've got a huge belief. And this is again, MQ, motivational intelligence, by the way, is you might hear me referring to MQ throughout the program, because that's the terminology. You've got EQ, which is emotional intelligence, you've got IQ, which is intelligent quotation. So MQ is your motivational intelligence.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
James FlemingSo anyway, what was I saying there? Yes, it's how do we communicate that with other people? You know, you get people in our business and organization who are maybe high performers and something went on in their life and all of a sudden they've kind of really dropped off. Well, the stereotypical leadership and management is, oh, you know, James is just no good any longer. And, you know, he's just, he's off the boil and I don't have time. But what's going on in their life? What's going on in their mind? There's a reason for it. That's understanding and managing other people's motivational intelligence, which is absolutely critical in today's new generation of leadership. You know what, we call it the trust and inspire leadership mindset.
Leanne ElliottSo to expand on, on that example that you've given us, if I'm at work, I'm going through something else that is— my performance has dipped. Is that a reflection of my motivational intelligence?
James FlemingYes.
Leanne ElliottTo have not managed that situation well enough that my performance has dipped?
James FlemingYes, at that particular point in your life. And your motivational intelligence is going to have different levels depending on whether you're at work, whether you're at home. So as it's— so it's a level of your— so you're, you're not motivated, you're not. So stick with that scenario. So your performance has dipped, there's something going on in your life, it's constantly on your mind. So, you're not managing those because ultimately, the only thing that drops your performance or levels of confidence is negative thoughts, right? That's it. It's pure and simple. It's your negative self-limiting thoughts and beliefs that you're not good enough, you're too stressed, you've got too much going on at home, when really, humans are incredible. We have something that virtually no other animal on the planet has, and that's choice.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
James FlemingWe can choose to manage those negative thoughts and self-limiting beliefs, or we can choose to allow them to overcome us, tell that negative story, and all of a sudden, we'll go down that spiral. And that's motivational intelligence. Because once you learn, this is so critical and why motivational intelligence leadership is, in my opinion, Absolutely game-changing leadership. Because once you learn it, you cannot unlearn it. You cannot unlearn it. It's like learning 1 times 1 and 2 times 2. Once you know it, you can't unlearn it. It's almost ingrained in that thought process. And that's what we do different from most leadership and why MQ Leadership, in my opinion, is going to be then absolutely huge in the world of leadership and management development.
Leanne ElliottSo how is it different from emotional intelligence? Because emotional intelligence involves regulating our emotions as well as the empathy and compassion that we, we hear more about. How is MQ unique in that respect in terms of us helping to create that more positive mindset, set more healthy boundaries, and regulate our emotions?
James FlemingWell, emotional intelligence is really important as well. I mean, I'm not saying it's not, but what motivates— motivational intelligence is that activates our emotions. So it's that initial feeling of disappointment, hurt, dread, fear, anger, victim mentality. It's that initial thought. So the dominant thought is what we call our motivational intelligence. So that thought activates the emotion. So if you can control the thought, you can control the emotion. Now, what we've been told over the years is our emotions that drive everything else. But we now know neuroscience, the latest in neuroscience, it's actually something else is driving those emotions. And that is your negative thoughts. So thoughts control actions and actions will dictate your results. So if you, let's say, we've talked about emotional intelligence. So if you're trying to regulate your emotions, but you've still got a dominant thought in your mind about poor me and my life, and you're just going through this constant story, it doesn't matter how good you are at regulating your emotions.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
James FlemingPeople might not see that you're really upset. People might not see that you're going through a hard time because you're emotionally intelligent. But what's actually happening up there? What's actually happening to your mental and physical health if you're hiding that? And you know, this world nowadays, people are really good at hiding their emotions. And the detrimental effect is that is unhappy employees, higher sick days. You know, it just has this massive spiral. Where people feel that that's their only option is to go on sick leave. But imagine, imagine if leaders— now when I say leaders, I don't mean people who run the businesses, right? I believe leadership is all across the board. You can have leaders, you know, in the canteen that serves your food, or you can have leaders at every level of a business or organization. And imagine that all our leaders, business leaders at all levels, Understood how to manage those negative thoughts and self-limiting beliefs just by the way you communicate.
Leanne ElliottI mean, you've mentioned self-limiting beliefs a couple of times. If anyone's listening and isn't quite sure what that means, can you give us an example?
James FlemingSo, so, so first of all, what stops most people from doing recordings or podcasts? The sound of their voice. That's a self-limiting belief. People don't give a shit. I mean, I remember when I first started doing videos, way back 7 years ago when I started the company, and I would video everything. I was one of those Facebook— I was on Facebook and I was sessions and clients and I was videoing everything and building that personal brand. Now, I didn't like my voice, but I knew that limiting belief. If I had told myself, James, people are going to laugh at you, they're going to think you're stupid, You know, that's a self-limiting belief. Now, if you tell yourself often enough that you've got a horrible voice, guess what? In your mind, you've got a horrible voice. So it's limiting your options in life. If you want to be a podcast host, it's never going to happen. If you want to be a vlogger, it's never going to happen. However, once you say to yourself, you know, it's just, it's a limiting belief. I don't believe it's true. My voice is actually okay, and I'm going to do it anyway. That's you. That's your motivational intelligence kicking in because you're going to do it anyway.
Leanne ElliottWith that in mind, what I wouldn't want anyone— I know from my own experience, doing it doesn't necessarily mean that I've done it well or done it good. So how do we then manage that? If you then pluck up the courage or the, you know, the motivation to go, I'm gonna do it, and then it bombs. How do you manage the fallout of that?
James FlemingNo one is ever going to get it right first time. I remember my first— now people say to me all the time, James, you are an absolute natural, you're a natural presenter, you're a natural talker. And I say, bullshit. I used to be absolutely terrified. I've got a video in my very first ever presentation And it was absolutely horrendous. Now, I was standing in front of 150, 200 oil and gas executives, right? And I was present— I created a patent and I was presenting this in front of— in Kuwait. So I was over in Kuwait at an oil and gas show and I'm standing up in this podium and I froze. Oh my God. I went into this really strong Glasgow accent because of nerves, and I spoke for 15 minutes. I didn't even know what I was saying, so God knows what they heard. And then when I watched the video back after the session, you know, obviously they'd send a video of all the day's sessions, and I got this CD and I played it back, and it was horrendous. But I knew, and I told myself, I'm never going to let that happen again. As long as you believe it can be better. So the people that do it get it wrong and then say, oh, I should never have done that. I'm not supposed to present. I'm not supposed to do podcasts. I'm not supposed to do— add in the letters after it. Then you're right, you're not. Because as long as you believe it, then it's true. That's motivational intelligence again. That's limiting beliefs. That's how we overcome it.
Leanne ElliottSo how can a person— if someone's listening, okay, I recognize this, I'm You've got me on board in terms of the concepts, but it's easy for you to sit there, go, and just do it, just do it, and then reflect and learn from it. What steps do you even get to from having this self-limiting belief to then actually taking some action? Is there a process that somebody needs to go through to, to, yeah, go from a self-limiting belief to action?
James FlemingSo the first you've got to think about is why does it matter? So you've got to understand why. So why do I want to learn to present? What's the outcome? So once you understand why, then you need to understand how. So how do I go about it? And then it's the what do I need to do? So why is it important? How do I go about it? And then what is it I actually need to do? Presenting, trialing, standing up and speaking at events, you know, whether it's a team meeting, maybe you take notes. You know, you're at a team meeting, you say, you know what, today I'm going to take the notes. And I'm going to manage the meeting. So it's just about small baby steps. Because if you're a terrible presenter, don't just go and say, I'm going to go and present in front of 200 people. Because that's got disaster written all over it. So it's about putting yourself in those positions where you're slowly building up those skill sets and mindsets in order for you to become better. You know, and again, and it's just about mastering your skills, I think. Anything in life, whether it's career, let's get career development. So somebody's sitting in there like, you know, I never get promoted. And, you know, people are always overseeing me. Go do something about it. What do you need? Speak to your manager. I want to be promoted. What do I need to do? What books do I need to read? What courses do I need to attend? And then go bloody do it. But if you sit there in that victim mentality and keep telling yourself, oh, poor me, I'm always getting looked over. Then it's, it's shame on you, not shame on anyone else. You've got to own that and take control.
Leanne ElliottOne of the things I see a lot in terms of organizational life, and particularly around— probably more around well-being— is that there's an emphasis on the individual to do better, be more resilient, just regardless of the toxic environment that they're in. So my question is, are we putting too much on the individual to be able to drive these things, when let's be honest, there are still multiple barriers in place in the workplace for various different reasons. Is it enough for just the individual to carry the responsibility for— do you mean that motivational intelligence will be the answer?
James FlemingSo that's a different conversation, but I'm going to try and answer it. It's a different conversation because a toxic culture, one individual can't change it. You've got to either Try to support the fix or leave. So toxic culture is something completely different. That's a— we could go way down another rabbit hole with toxic culture because normally culture isn't always created at the top, by the way. A lot of people always assume that the culture comes from the top down. It doesn't always. Sometimes it can come up if you get some, you know, I don't like to say it this way, but there's— whether we like it or not in life, you get some bad apples and they're just naysayers and negative. And by the way, again, I'm totally on board.
Al ElliottIt's not necessarily their fault.
James FlemingIt's maybe something they've experienced in life, or they've had really poor managers or leaders in the past. And they've just built up this, well, all managers are assholes and they never listen. So what's the point? So that culture can be created in businesses and organizations. So culture is really difficult. And I'm not going to get in that rabbit hole right now. But from a personal point of view, You cannot own a culture. You either learn to live with it or you leave. I mean, if it was me, I would, you know, if I was going to my management team and saying, look, here's my challenges, here's my problems, this is really kind of getting me down, and they don't do anything about it, then you need to remove yourself.
Leanne ElliottBut what if I have those self-limiting beliefs? What if I'm then thinking, yeah, but nobody else will hire me, I won't find another job at the other another salary. The economy is in the toilet right now. The job market's really slow. How do I then manage that and protect my emotional and my motivational intelligence if I'm in a toxic environment? I have these self-limiting beliefs that I can't make it anywhere else because I can't make it here in the company I've been with for X number of years. And the environment as well, I'm, I'm seeing whether it's true or not, I'm seeing it's not conducive to me moving on. How can we use motivational intelligence to overcome those self-limiting beliefs so one can move on and move forward?
James FlemingOkay, so what you're describing is someone who has really low self-esteem, right? So if you've got really low self-esteem, that generally has came back to previous experience in life, whether previous bosses, school, parenting, something in life has happened that's enabled you to develop quite low self-esteem. And it's the low self-esteem. So that has to be worked on, right? So that's a one-to-one type of training that you would need. Well, we can do it in group training as well. And it's not an overnight fix either, because remember, someone can be holding these self-limiting beliefs, low self-esteem for years. So if you get— it's like a habit. If you've got a bad habit that's been developed over years, It takes time to unwrite those habits. I think it's a— they take 21 days of constant trial and error to overcome a bad habit or something like that. I think that is. So it's something that's got to be practiced. So here's the problem where the problem will lie. So let's assume that someone came on a motivational intelligence course, let's say a self-leadership course, which is about self. So it's motivational intelligence for you rather than for a company.
Al ElliottYeah.
James FlemingAnd they learn all the tools and the tricks and the mindsets, and they learn it all. And they're like, I know what I need to do. But they leave the course and they keep telling themselves all the reasons why it won't work for them. Guess what? They're absolutely right. And nobody can fix that. A person's gotta own that first. They've gotta identify it, that that's how they're thinking. They've then gotta manage it and say, this doesn't serve me. They've then gotta learn to overcome it by putting new habits Or new beliefs. Does that make sense? So there's nothing that I can say. I could trigger it, but there's nothing that I could say. It's gotta come from them. Now here's the problem. So if you imagine your brain has a filter, so you've got your conscious mind, and then there's what we call a filter between conscious and subconscious. So it doesn't matter if I'm telling you something that goes completely against your self-beliefs. I.e., if you really believe that you don't have the characteristics or traits or mindset to be a manager, it doesn't matter what I say because it just bounces off that filter. It's called cognitive dissonance. It just bounces off the filter and it never enters our subconscious mind and becomes a dominant thought and belief. However, if I told you a story about something in your life that you've achieved and how you've overcame it, or other people have overcame challenges in their life, and I start to tell you a story something magical happens with the filter, because the minute you say, imagine this, or let me tell you a story, our mind opens up to possibilities. And that's how you get into somebody's subconscious mind and start to try and change those dominant thoughts and beliefs.
Al ElliottAfter this very short break, we're going to hear about how James gave up a life in the desert earning a lot of money to go back to rainy Scotland and Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast—
Leanne Elliottthat's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. You're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work.
James FlemingAnd we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how Encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
James FlemingDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. So let's rejoin the interview, learn why MQ is so important to James and also his story of how he started his company.
Leanne ElliottSo with that, can you tell the story maybe from somebody that you've worked with or from your book and how they've tried Transformed their life using MQ?
James FlemingWe've got lots and lots of stories. Why don't I tell you about a team, a business? So we had a business, a really, really large company based in Yorkshire, and they had taken over, they'd bought other businesses up, right? So they were, they had really expanded fast. And you had this really core family business who did things a certain way, and you had these other Businesses that were used to doing things a different way. So you've got 2 different mindsets, 2 different ways of managing and leading. And the MD came to us and said, look, James, I've seen your adverts. We've tried traditional leadership training, Maslow's hierarchy, we've tried it. Nothing's working. We've just got these 2 completely individual mindsets. And we need, we need to change it. We need to get people talking the same language. So we designed and developed a program, Motivational Intelligence Leadership Program. And what we did is we had the whole— so there was 17 SLTs, so senior leadership team. So we trained the whole senior leadership team using the same language, using the same abbreviations, talking about MQ and mindset and high payoff actions and activities.
Al ElliottYeah.
James FlemingAnd we come— remember, this is management from all the different businesses. And all of a sudden, we've got them in groups, we've got them talking about the same language, about how to communicate with people effectively. Now, it's not just about communication, but how to do it, the right way to be communicating, how to identify, you know, thoughts and limiting beliefs in themselves and of others. Now, we get such incredible feedback about how gelled that leadership team became in such a short period of time, they actually employed us to come in and do exactly the same at every single level of the company so that the whole business from top to Jeannie, who, you know, was sweeping the floors, or Joe that was serving the tea, everybody was taught the NQ language. And the transformation of the business has been absolutely Incredible. They don't have in-house fighting. They call themselves the Green Arrow team now. So the way that they talk about a Green Arrow is everybody in the business is all rowing in the same direction. They all have individual visions for the business. They have a vision for their team. They have a vision for their team's team. So the whole language of MQ is now embedded right throughout. their organization. So much so that this managing director of— I think they're a billion-dollar company— is now an advocate.
Leanne ElliottIf anyone's listening who's starting to realize that they are making excuses, are there any practical steps that they can start taking today?
James FlemingSo what are the excuses? Write it down. What is the excuse? What is the belief that they're telling themselves? And then think, what's the opposite? Yeah, what's the opposite belief? You know, and, and it's like a, um, an affirmation You've heard of affirmations, yeah? I'm huge with affirmations. Affirmations and gratitude are massive in our world. And I always say to people, what are the negative thoughts or self-limiting beliefs that you have or you're holding? And then think about what's the opposite? What do you want to have happen? What do you want to believe? And then use that as an affirmation. So create an affirmation.
Al ElliottI am.
James FlemingI am a positive thinking person. I am a— I, I can, I will. So create a positive affirmation and then tell yourself every time you hear yourself having that negative thought or self-limiting belief, be aware of it and then say to yourself, no, you can do this. Because sometimes that's all it takes, is just overcoming that initial fear.
Leanne ElliottI like that. I think it's similar to them, you know, But not making a decision is making a decision. It's just you're making the decision of inaction. I mean, with that, I think I can also— I like to always think about what people will say, because I speak to lots of different leaders and listeners and hear their objections. I'm trying to think what they might say. And one that's coming to me is kind of like, well, all right, I've overcome my self-limiting beliefs. I've done it. It didn't go so well. In fact, it went to the point where it failed, actually. My business went bankrupt. How do I reframe that failure to be able to move forward with, you know, motivational intelligence, to learn from that opportunity and not regress back to those self-limiting beliefs now that I have a really strong, well, you know, real-world example that it can go wrong?
James FlemingFailure is part of success. In order to be successful at anything in life, you've got to fail. You've got to get it wrong. I mean, the first 18 months of my business, I was almost bankrupt. I put my car up for sale. I sold my designer watches. I came from an oil and gas background exec, came home from Dubai, left the dream lifestyle, came back to Scotland. Why? I don't know, but came back to Scotland to set up my business. And guess what? Nobody was interested.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
James FlemingLike, I didn't have a product. I was selling a dream. You know, I was saying, I was coming home and I was seeing people who were struggling in life and, you know, struggling in business. And I'm thinking, God, I've got so much knowledge that I can help. I'd been studying high performance for about 17 years by this point. So, I kind of thought, wow. And I knew that the traditional leadership stuff didn't work. Why? Because I was sending my employees on it. They were going away for 4 or 5 days to a nice fancy hotel and they come back with a nice fancy Fancy black folder, nice leather, and I'm a leader certificate. And it would go up on the shelf and they would go back to work and do the same things over and over again, inspecting. And I thought, there's got to be another way. So I decided to go build another way and came back, set up my company. And the first 18 months was hell because I didn't— I'd never been to the UK for 20-odd years. I'd lived abroad. I didn't know the business. I didn't know—
Al ElliottYeah.
James FlemingThe market. I didn't even know if people wanted my services. But I never gave up. I never ever gave up. I went out there and I would— I was asking people, can I use your office? Can I use your boardroom? And I would run free events and I would ply my trade. I would get in, I'd find out what people want. I would trial new content, I would test it. And I failed lots and lots of times, but I never gave up. And by the way, I'll be really brutally honest. There was days when I actually wanted to run away because I went from making a, you know, really high 6-figure salary to making nothing. Like, both me and my wife gave up our jobs to come and set the company up. So we went from really high income to absolutely none. And there was, there was a day I actually says to my wife, and obviously I'd been headhunted to go back into oil and gas quite a few times. And there was one time, and it was, I think it was March 2019, and I thought, this is just too hard. You know, this is really, really difficult. And I remember, I love and breathe this.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
James FlemingAnd, you know, we're really struggling, and there's days when you're really struggling to put food on the table. And how do we put petrol in the car to go to a meeting? And there was lots of— and I'm thinking, I wonder if I should just go back, just Life's easy. And my wife turned and said to me, why? You gave up that life because you were unhappy. Why would you go back? And I just looked and I went, you're absolutely right. And away we went. And that was a turning point. And then our business really started to grow. Now, it isn't coincidence or anything like that. It's hard work. It's getting it wrong because we're going to get it wrong. But it's having that grit, right? There's a—
Al Elliottthat's a thing.
James FlemingThat's a brilliant word, having the grit. To never give up because you don't know, you don't know when that one golden nugget's going to come along. I mean, I mean, our business is probably going to top $2 million, you know, this year. I could never have dreamed of that 7 years ago. It was me and my wife. We've now got 17 staff. You know, I would never have dreamt that. Yes, I had the vision, which is key. But, you know, I would never have dreamt that to have happened. And it just shows the power of when you absolutely believe something beyond all reasonable doubt, you know, every fiber of your body, then you will see the results. And the financial reward is a byproduct of changing people's lives. It's never about the money and it never has been. But the amount of people's lives we change is the byproduct of that is our employees make good money, and we can reinvest in the business and we can do really nice things. You know, we've got a thing called a growth fund. So if a company comes to us and says, oh, you know, I really don't have the money, but I'd really like to train my staff, but we're struggling. We've got a thing, we have a growth fund, and we'll put them on training complimentary at our cost. So like, it's just a, it's just Motivational intelligence is a way of life for us now.
Leanne ElliottThere's 2 things that I'm reflecting on as you're speaking, and one being that there's still going to be people that will go, I've not got the runway, I'm 50, I don't have the time to fail. And is what you're saying that, that, that's, that's, that's okay? Because actually the way you're talking is the first thing that needs dealing with for you to move forward. And actually it's a choice that you have to deal with this Or accept that that path won't happen for you. It's almost that level of self-awareness to go, if it's even an option, it starts with, with these attitudes.
James FlemingSo it's the thoughts, the dominant thought in that person's mind that's dictating. And sometimes they don't even need to— the words that they say are not always verbal. It's the, it's the story they tell in their own mind. And if somebody's determined to tell themselves, right, That this is their story. That's a story. You, me, no one's ever going to change that. You know, no, no amount of therapy, coaching, training will ever change that until they're open. And I think that's what motivational intelligence training does different, because we tell stories. We don't go and go, here's the theory, and this is what you're going to do, and this is how you're going to do it. But we tell lots and lots and lots of stories about other people. And when you hear a story and you hear about someone else coming through adversity, and somebody who thought like you and spoke like you, and they've came through adversity and they've overcome those challenges, all of a sudden you go, I wonder if I can do that too. And that's the first step. So the first step is, okay, I think I could change.
Al ElliottYeah.
James FlemingAs soon as you start to have that thought, okay, I think I could probably do that, I think you change. You've got to build on that. So you then start to build on that, you know. So what, what is great? What has been successful? What does it mean? What does it mean to you? Well, it means something to me different for you and from everybody else. We all have a different idea of success. Ultimately, it's happiness. I would probably go down the route of success is I'm happy in life and I'm content, then I'm successful.
Al ElliottYeah.
James FlemingBut our outcomes have got to align to make us successful. So outcomes that we want from life have got to align with what that is. And that can only happen if we get out of our own bloody way and stop making excuses. And it's the voice, it's the little voice in our head that dictates those limiting beliefs. We need to overcome it. And by the way, honestly, it can be as simple as just deciding enough is enough. And then finding the right kind of training, the right podcasts, even listening to something like this conversation could be enough for somebody to go, you know what? I am sick of making excuses. I'm going to try and practice. And by the way, if you're listening, you're thinking that, don't think it's going to happen overnight. You've got to consistently do it until your dominant thought is not negative. Your dominant thought is now the positive. And once you start to believe in yourself, that's when the magic happens. It's when you start to believe in yourself and you've changed the narrative and you've changed the story, then the magic happens. Will things go wrong? Absolutely. Will you make mistakes? 100%. But never stop believing because we never ever know when we're going to hit that magic. You know, there's a little caricature type cartoon And there's 2 men and they're standing one above the other and they're both digging in a tunnel. I don't know if you've ever seen it. So they're both digging in a tunnel and at the other side of the wall is diamonds. So both of them are almost at the diamonds and one little caricature turns away and walks away and says, I've had enough. There's nothing here. And the other one waits another couple of days and hits the gold, hits the diamond. And that's life.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
James FlemingThe problem is people give up too easy because we tell ourselves, ah, well, this isn't for me. Presenting, podcasts, you know, anything. People try it, they're not good at it, and they tell themselves, ah, well, this isn't for me. I'm just not supposed to present. And I call bullshit on that.
Leanne ElliottCan I ask you honest and real honest answer? I know you will, James. I know you enough already after 45 minutes to know you're gonna answer this honestly. When you left your very lovely 6-figure job, Dubai, living the life, and had this vision of establishing your own business, if you'd have fast-forwarded those 5, 6 years to where you are now, would it have— would it look as you expected it to when you left that job in Dubai?
James FlemingSo when I told my wife— worked for the same oil and gas company— and when I told her what I wanted to do, her very first reaction was Let's do it. So we came home. The actual— I won't get into the whole story because it's too long, but I've got a book out called You Can Have Success or Excuses, You Cannot Have Both. The whole story's in there. But anyway, fast forward to February 2017 when we set up the business. So we wrote the business plan, right? What exactly? So this was my vision. So I put my vision— I didn't know how to write a proper business plan for a business. So I put my literally what the business was going to look like, the name, So we're going to do everything in this business plan. So I kind of had the vision of what I wanted to create. Now, between me writing that in February 2017, those first 3 or 4 years, 5 years in fact, 2 completely different businesses, looked nothing like it until now. Now, if you read the business plan, it looks exactly like my business today. Isn't that weird? But the amount of mistakes and failures and getting things wrong in the past that I've went down and had to turn back and go, no, this doesn't work. Let's try that. No, that doesn't work. I mean, if someone told me that I would be one of the biggest leadership companies for construction in the UK, I would say you're off your head. Why construction? But we are. It's just one of those— you must have heard the story. We just fell into it.
Al ElliottYeah.
James FlemingAnd we just found that, you know, I'm ex-construction and ex-oil and gas, very both male-dominated. So we had this real drive that I wanted to change male-dominated, I want more females in the business because they bring in more, you know, real diversity, real mindset, you know, because completely 2 different minds. So I would never have really imagined it until I read my business plan back. And now when I look at my business plan and I look at my business, now remember that was 7 years, 7 and a half years, nearly 8 years ago. It looks like 2 identical businesses now, but it didn't through that process. I had to get it wrong so many times to get it right.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think it does, as you say, come from that positive mindset and that reflective thinking. You know, every few months, Al and I will sit down and we'll review our goals from From the last quarter, from the last 6 months. What have we achieved? What didn't? What have we excelled in? What have we bombed at? And how do we take that forward? One, to internalize those achievements, because if you're going through this journey, it's really freaking hard, so you need to celebrate the wins. And secondly, readjust those plans moving forward. And I think what you've, what you've showed us really beautifully is that it isn't a silver bullet. It's not an overnight thing. It's a way of thinking that takes time to craft, that needs reinforcing, and takes a lot of hard work along the way. Is that fair?
James FlemingAbsolutely. I mean, one of the things I, I'm going to say this, one of the things I really hate is companies that sell silver bullets because they don't exist. You know, come and make £190,000 a month by learning these strategies. Bullshit. You know, come and be a successful leader by attending a 3-day seminar. Bullshit. You know, there is no silver bullet to success. It's vision. Number one, vision. You've got to have a really good vision of what it is you're trying to build and create. Courage. You've got to have courage to take the risk. Authenticity. Don't try and be something you're not. Be you. You know, you're going to— people are going to love you and people are going to hate you.
Al ElliottSo be it. Yeah.
James FlemingAnd then that really positive mindset, really positive, you've got to have a positive mindset. And finally, learning. Never, ever, ever stop trying to be better. Constantly learn. You know, my whole vision is to be, I want us to be the best leadership company in the world. You know, I want Motivational Intelligence to be one of those things that when you think about leadership, right now, most people think EQ.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
James FlemingI want people to think about leadership and business growth and development. Oh, that's NQ. I'm increasing my NQ. You know, that's how I want it. I want this to go because if we had a world where people really were able to manage negative thoughts and identify them and take more risks, and we're going to be happier because magic happens outside your comfort zone. We know that, right? That's where the real magic happens is outside the comfort zone when we're willing to take risks and You know, we never— we don't regret things that we, you know, we just keep moving forward. And by the way, that's another really good thing. I wasn't born this way. I wasn't born confident. And, you know, it's a learned set of behaviors. And it only happens through time and absolute self-belief that you can be better tomorrow than you are today. And it's just Really telling yourself, but believing in it, that you absolutely can be whatever it is you want to be. I always say this, go at whatever you want to do in life, right? Whatever it is, go and identify someone who's just like you, who's done it before. And if they can do it, why the hell can't you? I still have negative thoughts, but I don't, I don't have them often enough for it to become a belief, because a belief is only when you have the same thought over and over again, you start to believe it to be true.
Leanne ElliottIf somebody is listening, they're probably going, got all these great things they want to do in 2025, they've set these goals. What would you say to them? Any message, any lessons, key lessons from motivational intelligence that will help them stick to those New Year resolutions?
James FlemingThe word New Year's resolutions kind of puts me off anyway, because New Year's not the time to be setting resolutions or goals. It's other times. But anyway, let's see. So you're sitting on your— it's the 5th of January or 6th of January, whatever, wherever the date this comes out. And you're sitting here, I really want to do this. Have an idea, try and paint a picture, right, of exactly what that next 12 months looks like. If it's weight, if it's gym, try and physically say, what will this do for me? So basically imagine you're sitting 12 months from now and you're talking to yourself in a bar. What's happened? What does that look like? Start with there. So I call it successful outcome. So write a successful outcome. About whatever your key goals are, right? And then break your goals. So what's the 3 or 4 things I want to do in the next 12 months that's going to move me to that success? And set those 12-month goals. Then break those goals, right? Write them down. If you don't write them down, it's a waste of time, right? We've got to get all our senses. We've got to get our auditory, visual, kinesthetic. We've got to involve all our senses if we want to make things really happen. Write it down, then break those goals down into quarters. So what has to happen by the end of Q1? What has to happen to make sure I'm on track? And then say, okay, in January— so then we're now going to break those goals from Q1 to January. So in January, what are the 5 things that we've ever been called? The power of 5, never more than 5. What are the 5 things that I can do in January?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
James FlemingThat's going to keep me aligned with that goal. So if it's, you know, I want to get fit or I want to, whatever it is, so I need to join a club or I need to, I need a running buddy or all the, think of all the things that, what would normally get in my way, right? These are called critical success factors. What are the things I come too lazy and when I get into work, okay. Set your alarm an hour earlier and go up in the morning and do half an hour run in the morning. If you know that you're going to have a hard shift and you're going to be tired Got up earlier in the morning, go to bed an hour early. It's thought, it's excuses that people make that they put in the way. So break those goals down. So 12-month goal, so success statement, 12-month goals, your quarterly goals. So January, February, March, then break them into January. Then I want you to break them into each week. So the 5 weeks in January. So week 1, what am I going to do? What am I going to do week 2, week 3, week 4? And then what am I going to do today? So basically Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, what are the things I'm going to do today that's non-negotiable must-dos, not to-dos, must-dos, that's going to keep me on track to achieve my goal? Now, as we know, if you're consistently taking the right actions, you're going to get the right results. And if you get the right results at the end of the year, guess what? We're going to achieve Our goals. And it's those small chunked-down goals that matter. Those little wins. I think you mentioned those little wins. Celebrate them. Feel good. There's some days, I mean, I go to the gym 6 days a week. There's some days I really don't want to go to the gym, but I go and I feel so much better after it.
Leanne ElliottJames, thank you so much. You've given us so much to, to think about, reflect on, and some practical steps to take as well. If anyone listening, and I'm sure they do, want to find out more about you, your work, your book, where should they go?
James FlemingOh, it's really simple. It's The Power Within Training. So whether it's LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, it's The Power Within Training on all of those platforms. Or for me on LinkedIn personally, it's James Fleming TPWTD on LinkedIn. And the book is available on Amazon, Audible, Kindle, all the Amazon, and it's called You Can Have Success or Excuses. You Cannot Have Both. And by the way, it's not one of those rehashed self-help books. It's my story. It's Glasgow-born, working class, no qualifications leaving school to running a billion-dollar business and then packing that in and coming home and starting a business, being scared, and having to sell all my gold and watches to keep the business running, to spend it on marketing. It's a real no-holds-barred story. But the last part of the book is all about the practical things that you can do, the daily habits, you know, the goal setting, how to properly set the goals, really set the goals, you know, the mindset, how to build the mindset, how to manage those limiting beliefs. So everything that we've talked about. So there's actually a practical part to the book as well.
Al ElliottAnother fantastic interview with a really interesting expert. If you want to find out more about James, then you know what to do. All of the links are in the show notes.
Leanne ElliottAnd don't forget, if you've enjoyed today's episode, the best way to support the show is to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, or even on the YouTube if that is where you are, you are watching us.
Al ElliottSpeaking of next week's episode, we're still going to be in Northern Italy, but we're going to be in a house, so we'll be recording from indoors because it turns out the recording in the Italian mountains in January isn't exactly tropical.
Leanne ElliottFun fact, we are actually living in a cave. It's a very nice cave, But it's a cave nonetheless. Um, my hands are actually starting to turn blue holding this microphone, so I think we should probably go. The view is spectacular, um, but I think I will go in and make a cup of tea and just look at it through the window.
Al ElliottIf you're listening to this and not watching on YouTube, then maybe jump over to YouTube, search Truth, Lies and Work, and you should see the video. It might not be up today only because we're in the mountains, we get 1 bar of 4G, so I might not be able to upload the video today, but it should be there from tomorrow.
Leanne ElliottBefore we go, remember you can find us on LinkedIn. Feel free to drop us a message about today's episode, and all the details about everything we've discussed are in the show notes. And on a slightly more serious note, if you are struggling with your mental health or well-being in January— it is a tough month— we always leave a variety of resources in the show notes. Do go and check them out.
Al ElliottSo, arrivederci! That's— I think that's goodbye, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottCiao ciao!
Al ElliottCiao ciao, see you next time. Bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottYou flared in Italian there.
Al ElliottThat's the only word I know.
Leanne Elliott24 hours.