Episode 168 · 4 February 2025 · 55:35
Netflix’s harsh take on family, redundancy red flags and why 'txt spk' is killing UR cred. PLUS! January resolutions are BS, Meenakshi Iyer's hot take!
Netflix’s harsh take on family, redundancy red flags and why 'txt spk' is killing UR cred. PLUS! January resolutions are BS, Meenakshi Iyer's hot take!
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Intro and News Roundup Kickoff
news roundup#news#podcast-intro#current-events
Story 1: 200 UK Companies Commit to Permanent 4-Day Work Week
news roundup#4-day-work-week#uk#workplace-policy
Story 2: Netflix Founder Says Stop Calling Workplaces a Family
news roundup#workplace-culture#leadership#netflix
Story 3: Text Abbreviations Make You Seem Lazy and Fake
news roundup#communication#text-abbreviations#professionalism
Hot Take: Meenakshi Iyer on Why January Resolutions Are BS
Workplace Surgery: Are All Employee Surveys the Same?
workplace surgery#employee-surveys#hr#feedback
Workplace Surgery: Redundancy Red Flags
workplace surgery#redundancy#red-flags#layoffs
Workplace Surgery: Why Do My Manager's Resolutions Die by February?
workplace surgery#manager-behavior#resolutions#employee-engagement
Show notes
Netflix’s Harsh Take on Family, Redundancy Red Flags & Why 'Txt Spk' Is Killing UR Cred — PLUS! January Resolutions Are BS
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why 200 UK companies are making the four-day week permanent, why Netflix's co-founder says stop calling workplaces a family, and the psychology behind why text abbreviations make you seem lazy and fake. Plus, leadership coach Meenakshi Iyer's hot take on why January resolutions are BS, and a Workplace Surgery covering employee surveys, redundancy red flags, and manager resolutions that die by February.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. The 4-day workweek goes permanent for 200 UK companies Over 200 companies across the UK have now committed to a permanent four-day workweek with no loss of pay. Al and Leanne discuss why this is a massive increase on previous years, how it's becoming a competitive advantage for businesses that can't compete on salary, and why the short-sightedness of some organisations means they'll miss out on top talent. Source →
2. Netflix founder says "stop calling workplaces a family" Marc Randolph, co-founder of Netflix, has called out companies using the "we're a family" metaphor. The conversation digs into why the family metaphor is fundamentally flawed — families don't fire people, and workplaces don't offer unconditional love. Leanne explains why hard conversations are part of the job if you're a manager, and why pretending otherwise does everyone a disservice.
3. Why text abbreviations make you seem lazy and fake A new study in the Journal of Experimental Psychology finds that using abbreviations like "thx" instead of "thanks" makes people seem insincere and less engaged. Al gets tested on his Gen X texting knowledge (with mixed results), and they explore what this means for workplace communication — especially when older workers try to sound younger by adopting text speak. Source →
🔥 Hot Take: Meenakshi Iyer on Why January Resolutions Are BS
Leadership coach Meenakshi Iyer, founder of NorthStar Solutions and Services LLC, joins the show to challenge the idea that January is the best time for fresh starts.
The problem with standardized goal-setting:
- New Year's resolutions are based on Western norms and ignore cultural differences, natural rhythms, and personal energy cycles
- In many cultures, spring or personal milestones are more meaningful times for setting goals
- Research shows that any temporal landmark (like a birthday or job anniversary) can create a mental reset — January 1st isn't the only option!
Companies pushing "New Year, New Goals" initiatives in the middle of winter might be setting employees up for failure.
💡 Join Meenakshi Iyer at the 6th Annual World of Work Conference Meenakshi will be speaking at the 6th Annual World of Work Conference on February 28, 2025, where she'll share insights on how organizations can rethink goal-setting, productivity, and employee well-being.
🎟 Get Your Ticket: Click here to book your place 💰 Exclusive Discount Code: Use SPEAKER10 at checkout for $10 off your ticket!
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Employee surveys: "A small business owner asks if they really need to run engagement surveys or if they're just corporate jargon." Leanne breaks down the difference between engagement surveys, culture surveys, and pulse surveys — and why not all surveys are made equal.
- Redundancy red flags: "A listener sees layoffs coming and wants to know the warning signs and how to prepare." If you're seeing the signs, Leanne says you've probably already answered your own question — and she shares how to prepare.
- Manager resolutions: "Every January, their manager gets big ideas — by February, they're forgotten. Can team resolutions actually work?" The advice involves smiling, nodding, and letting it blow over (and maybe sending your manager Meenakshi's video).
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
🎧 What's Next
This Thursday, we sit down with Crevin O'Malley, VP of Corporate Sales at HubSpot, for a deep dive into sales leadership, culture, and career growth. And next Tuesday, we'll be back with more This Week in Work!
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome. Hello. How's your February going? We're only, what, this— when this goes out, it'll be the 3rd of Feb, something like that. Uh, we're back in our studio in Mostar, as you can see, which is kind of nice. Uh, we might not have that beautiful background that we had in Italy, but the lights are definitely kinder. Didn't like looking back at the video on that. Put about 10 years on both of us, I think, Lee, didn't it?
Leanne ElliottHow rude! I thought I looked fabulous.
Al ElliottOn to business. Regular listeners will know that every Tuesday, just like today, Leanne and I bring you a roundup of the latest news in the work culture, plus a hot take from the industry expert, and then the world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYes, and every Thursday we bring you a brand new interview with an expert guest who knows how to create great workplace cultures, which is exactly what we like to talk about around here.
Al ElliottSo that's how it works around here. Leanne, do you happen to know what time it is?
Leanne ElliottI do. It's my favourite time of the week, Al, and it's not just half past 2 on a Tuesday. It's time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle.
Al ElliottCue that jingle. Okay, Le, what have you seen this week?
Leanne Elliott200 companies in the UK have committed to a 4-day work week. Yay!
Al ElliottThat's good news.
Leanne ElliottIt really is. According to a report I saw in The Guardian, 200 companies across the UK have now committed to a permanent 4-day working week for their employees with no loss of pay. That's over 5,000 workers who'll be clocking in fewer hours while keeping their full salary. This latest milestone comes as part of the campaign led by the 4 Day Week Foundation, which, which argues that the traditional 5-day, 9-to-5 model is outdated, essentially a relic of a different economic era. Hear, hear. Joe Ryle, the campaign's director, put it quite bluntly: the 5-day week was invented 100 years ago and is no longer fit for purpose. And with 50% more free time, the argument goes, people can lead happier, more fulfilling lives without a drop in productivity. So which industries are leading the charge? Well, apparently marketing, PR, and advertising. Their firms are on, on top in terms of embracing the 40-day work week. Uh, 40-day work week? What am I on about? 4-day work week. Uh, charities, NGOs, social care follow closely behind, um, and then some tech firms and business consultancies as well. Notably, it just seemed to be the London-based companies that have had the most enthusiastic adopters, making it nearly a third of all businesses embracing this change. But while some workers are celebrating the shift, the 4-day week is far from the norm, and it's reigniting debates around workplace flexibility. Many employees are still pushing for basic work-from-home rights, let alone reduced working week. Um, Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottWell, it's a long time coming, and I'm, I'm pleased. Um, I think that we've, we've always, we've always said that the crux of the whole 4-day workweek thing is, can you deliver the same thing in a shorter period of time. Not can you do less work, not can you potentially save money by going to 4 days but only paying for 4 days. It's all about can you deliver the same amount of or quality of work. And there's lots of companies that prove they can. If you go back to episode, I wanna say 58, I'll check and put it in the show notes, that we talked to 3 people who were experts in the 4-day work week. Ferry, who runs a digital PR consultancy, extremely successful, very funny on LinkedIn. Definitely go and— we'll put a link in the show notes. Definitely go and find him. Ferry Cazzoni, I think it is. Originally from Romania and now just jumps on LinkedIn and, and does these sort of like green screens himself into, uh, uh, into, into movie scenes. Uh, very, very funny, but also extremely successful business. And they've been working 4-day work, uh, work weeks for a long, long time. We also had Joe O'Connor. Um, sorry, Joe, I think we might have just mentioned your competitor there. But Joe's another guy who was, who did a huge study into the 4-day work week. Definitely worth having a look at. And another guy, Banks Benitez. Um, And he was one of the people who was working with Joe's pilot. Really interesting stuff there. So it's a great— if you're interested in this kind of thing, we'll put a link in the show notes. I think it's about 58, 60 is the episode. Definitely worth listening to.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it does seem to be like 2022, 2023, there's lots of talk around the 4-day work week. And last year we didn't hear as much about it. Um, I think, you know what really struck me about that article? And it's so obvious, but I never really thought about it before. Going to like a 3-day weekend, you get 50% more spare time.
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottBut it's such a massive increase, isn't it? And it's kind of that— I think the short-sightedness maybe from some business owners is that, well, if we're going to lose a day a week, does that mean we're going to lose a day a week in terms of our revenue? But I actually, I don't, I don't think that maths maths in that way. And actually, if you looked at then how it's going to impact positively your retention rate in terms of staff, the quality of applicants you're going to get to your business by offering a 4-day work week as standard, I think it's going to pay for itself very, very quickly. And let's not forget about what the kids want. Um, so this article also said that younger workers are making their expectations clear. And a study by Spark Market Research found that 78% of 18 to 34-year-olds in the UK believe the 4-day work week will be standard within the next 5 years. I think that's wishful thinking, but I, I hope you're right. Um, so yeah, nearly two-thirds as well are rejecting the idea of returning to the office full-time. So I think, yeah, there's gonna be a time where we're gonna push back, and I think the next 4 to 5 years is going to be where organizations are going to push back with the RTO mandates and blah blah blah blah blah. But my feeling is I'd like to think the same, you know, that by 2030, 4-day work week is more, more common. I think it'd do wonders for those early adopters now in terms of your, your talent acquisition.
Al ElliottYes, exactly. I think that's it, that you may not be able to compete on salary, but if you can offer the same salary but for 4 days rather than 5 days, then suddenly your talent— I think you call it a talent stream. No, what do you call it when it's like a pipeline? Pipeline. Your talent pipeline. People are attracted to you. I mean, the other consideration is that The 8-hour working day was invented, I believe, by Henry Ford, because he reckoned that 8 hours work, 8 hours leisure, 8 hours sleep, and that's the way you should be setting up your 24-hour day. Well, we don't all adhere to that. Some people go the other way, but a lot of people now, I think, are going, look, if I can get my work done in sort of like 6 hours, great. So lots of archaic thinking, and I'm really pleased that some people are actually, actually working on this. And this is great. Good for you. Well done.
Leanne ElliottYeah, well done. What have you seen this week, Al?
Al ElliottWell, this is one, an article I saw. Well, it's not an article, it's a post I saw on X or Twitter or whatever we call it now. Stop calling your workplace a family. Now, you have been banging on about this, Leanne, for a very, very long time. This, you are, you're in good company because Marc Randolph, who's the founder and CEO of Netflix, he said the same thing. So basically, he's the guy, before, before you ask, no, I didn't see it on Netflix. I saw it on, as I said, Twitter or X or Whatever. Twix, I'm calling it. That's my, my name for it. Anyway, he's talking about this thing that drives us absolutely crazy here at Truth Towers when people call themselves— companies call themselves a family. Now, I have been guilty of this myself back in the day before I met Leanne, back in 2002 when I first started my own first business. Um, I was very much like, let's make this friends and family, and, and that— I went bankrupt from that company. So I think it's fair to say that that didn't actually work. So Randolph makes this brilliant point. He says When was the last time you fired someone from your family? You know, for example, you might say, uh, son, your mother and I have been talking and we've decided to outsource taking out the rubbish, so I'm afraid we're gonna have to let you go. It's a stupid thing. Obviously it's not gonna work. But here's where it gets really interesting. At Netflix, they don't use all this sort of family rubbish. They see themselves more as like a professional sports team, and not like a Sunday league team where everyone gets a game and participation trophy. And wherever you stand on that, I personally think that's a bad idea. I think that you should have winners and losers because that helps you to deal with or get ready for life. But these guys were talking about proper, like, well, in English terms, Premier League stuff. They're talking about the top tier. The way that Randolph explains it as a manager is your job isn't to make sure everyone gets playing time. We're using this again, this football analogy. It's to put the best possible team on the field. And that's actually, to be fair, fairer to everyone.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBecause let's be honest, if you are the top performer, uh, so Mo Salah, for example, the last thing you wanna be doing is carrying someone who's not pulling their weight. Um, who was the guy you were shouting at the other night, Leanne? Uh, Konaté, was it? You were like, oh, he should get off. Anyway, that's about the extent of my football knowledge.
Leanne ElliottSorry, Konaté, if you're listening. I can't remember exactly.
Al ElliottI think she was just a bit, bit angry about Liverpool. Um, but the whole point is that you shouldn't just put someone on the field just because they're part of the family. Now, what I found was really interesting was his take on startups, because he says the people you start with usually aren't the ones you finish with. This is so, so true. At the beginning, you need these sort of all these amazing all-rounders who can wear 17 different hats and are cool with their job description changing every time you make a cup of tea or something. But as you grow, sometimes you need different skills. In fact, I would say that you'd almost certainly need different skills. And this is the brutal bit. Sometimes you might have to sit down with someone who's given everything to your company, who's been there from the beginning. who's worked nights, weekends, probably taken a pay cut to be there, and tell them they won't be coming on the next part of the journey. That's very American, isn't it? Won't be coming on the next part of the journey. It's not fun, but as Randolph says, it's the job. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be in that position. Lee, thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYeah, hard conversations as a manager. If you, if you don't want to have them, don't be a manager. And it is really hard, and you can practice them and get better at them. My issue is with the whole family analogy. I understand it's these, it's these Yeah. And we're united in something in terms of a mission or a purpose or values or a goal. I understand, and I think family is just something that we, we, we go to because it's what we know in terms of that closeness, but it doesn't really work. Like you say, you're not gonna fire a member of your family. Um, also, families are functional families. Let's bear in mind, there's lots of families that aren't functional. There are probably more dysfunctional families than there are functional families. Um, And I'm sure we all have relationships in our family, like, probably wouldn't wanna bring that type of dynamic into the workplace. It just doesn't really, it doesn't really work. Families rely on, to an extent, on unconditional love and we're always gonna be in each other's lives. And like you pointed out, Al, it is a conditional, very much a conditional relationship. It's based on, I'm gonna pay you X amount to deliver Y. If you don't deliver that—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottyou're not gonna be around much longer. It's a very different relationship. And of course, over time, yes, that social cohesion is gonna come with the team. Equally, you're gonna go through those cycles, things evolve. And I think that's the biggest challenge. And I'd argue possibly the difference between entrepreneurs who grow a business and entrepreneurs who keep a business.
Al ElliottMm.
Leanne ElliottIn that those entrepreneurs, those business owners that understand that business evolves, every aspect of it evolves, including their people, will build a very, um, A very sustainable, healthy, continuously growing business. And I think family is just, it's just a bit cliché now as well. And I think again, I think again, the kids are just gonna be like, ugh, you know? And also, who are you? Does that make you dad or mum as the MD? Do you really wanna build a business just by, no, it doesn't work. We know it doesn't work, move on.
Al ElliottLe, what else have you seen?
Leanne ElliottText abbreviations make us look fake and lazy.
Al ElliottLOL.
Leanne ElliottThat is— that's the headline that's going to grab my attention. Um, yeah, that's according to a new psychology study published by the Journal of Experimental Psychology. But before we get into that, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna look at text abbreviations and check out your knowledge, Al.
Al ElliottOh no.
Leanne ElliottAnd before any listeners start thinking it's going to be another humiliation like our Gen Z interpreting what all the language means and we've got none of them right, let's not forget that Gen Xers like Al were pioneers of text abbreviations.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. BRB.
Leanne ElliottThey invented it. Because if you don't know, if you're not a Gen Xer or an older millennial, then in the dark ages of texting, when we talked about SMS, you had 160 characters and anything more than that cost you more money, a second message. So you had to get really, really clever in terms of abbreviating your text. It became an art, I think.
Al ElliottIt did.
Leanne ElliottSo yes, Al, I have full confidence You're gonna nail these. You ready?
Al ElliottI am.
Leanne ElliottFirst one, TL;DR.
Al ElliottToo long, didn't read.
Leanne ElliottYeah, basically.
Al ElliottAnd well, actually, I think that that's not necessarily the polite way of getting to saying gets the point. That is like a summary that you put— it's come from Reddit, I'm pretty sure. And what the people will do, they're called OPs, original posters, and they will put a big long thing on and then at the bottom they put TL;DR, as in it was too long, you didn't read it, did you? Here's the summary. So TL;DR. So quite often I think nerds like me will say, oh look, just give me the TL;DR, because we're absolute nerds and, uh, and most of us are virgins. Sorry. Next one.
Leanne ElliottOkay, if somebody replies IcyMi, what are they saying?
Al ElliottUm, IcyMi. I know this one. You do? If you can make it? No.
Leanne ElliottIn case you—
Al ElliottIn case you No, I don't know it.
Leanne ElliottIn case you missed it.
Al ElliottOh no, it wasn't what I was thinking of.
Leanne ElliottOh no?
Al ElliottIn case you missed it. No, I didn't know that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so ICYMI, usually apparently attached to a link or an email somebody definitely sent already. Do you remember that? In case you missed it, for your attention again. Um, an easy one, uh, BRB.
Al ElliottBe right back.
Leanne ElliottYep. And what about FWIW?
Al ElliottFor what it's worth.
Leanne ElliottYeah, is that right? Yeah, it is. Gen X for the win. Just the one there. One.
Al ElliottFTW. Gen X FTW for the win.
Leanne ElliottOkay, let's get back to the psychology. Um, so a new study, um, has found that using these types of text abbreviations might actually be harming how people perceive us. So according to the research, as I said, published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology, reported by the British Psychological Society, so you know it's good, shortening words in texts like THX for thanks or HRU, how are you, makes you come across as less sincere. And even worse, could actually reduce the chances of getting a response. Further plot twist, most people don't think that this is the case. So the state— same study found that 80% of people assumed that abbreviations wouldn't make a difference, and some people even thought that it would make them more preferable. But after testing over 5,000 participants, the researchers found the opposite. So when people use a lot of abbreviations, they come across as less engaged, less genuine, And, well, actually just a bit lazy. So the study, which was led by David Fang at Stanford University, ran multiple experiments. In one, participants rated texters who use full words as being more sincere and making more effort than those who cut corners with abbreviations. Another experiment looked at Tinder messages— yes, real-world data— from nearly 700 users across 37 countries. This is an Excellent bit of research. Well done, Mr. Fang. Turns out that more abbreviations—
Al ElliottReally got his teeth into it, didn't he?
Leanne ElliottHe really did. He really did. Um, it turns out that the more abbreviations somebody used, the shorter their conversations were. So if you're trying to get yourself a date for Friday night, don't use text abbreviations.
Al ElliottCan I just ask about this? So when you say shorter, that means that they ended quicker, not necessarily that they were shorter because they used fewer words?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. The, the, the Um, the exchange of messages was much shorter.
Al ElliottThey didn't get their bits wet.
Leanne ElliottDidn't get the date, didn't get the date. And then in terms of the workplace—
Al ElliottI'm glad you talked over that.
Leanne ElliottWhere's this application? Um, so if abbreviations make us seem less engaged in casual chats, then in work communications— think about Slack or Teams or even emails— these quick-fire abbreviated messages make us seem less, less invested in our work relationships. Al's thought clean, please.
Al ElliottYes. Okay. Sorry. I'll keep it clean. Uh, yeah. Uh, I think it feels like a bit of disrespect if someone just does— like, have you ever done like a big long text to someone and then they just give you a thumbs up as a reply and you're like, hmm, very passive-aggressive. What the hell, man? Yeah. I've just spent like 25 minutes. Well, as a, as a, as an old person, 25 minutes writing this out. So I think that's a little bit, um, I think emojis have definitely got their place. One of my favorite at the moment is the saluting emoji, and I don't know who decided to cut it in half. But it is perfect. It just works perfectly. So I use that quite a lot. Uh, but no, I think, I think in a, in a, in any kind of communication, I mean, it depends obviously whether it's peer-to-peer, whether you're talking to a client, whether you're talking to your boss, a boss talking to someone who works for them. I think it's more acceptable in peer-to-peer, but even then it looks like you're just not giving it the, the time it possibly requires. Just a quick— I don't know, I'm split because I think if I was texting someone or I was on Slack, and then, um, I had a phone, you know, I had a meeting, I might go, got a meeting, BRB. I might put that down. And what you're— what the study is saying is I probably shouldn't. Um, I think—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThere's the other part of it as well, is that potentially older people like me might be using those to try and look like they are still relevant and cool, when in actual fact, if we get it wrong— like, for example, my mum, I think it was, who thought LOL was lots of love, so she He sent some quite strange messages. Your, your auntie Lorna's died, LOL. Um, you know, so, so there is that, the option of getting it wrong, which is not great. Um, overall, I don't know. I want to say there's a time and a place, but you've just shown me some research that shows that actually there isn't.
Leanne ElliottWell, there's always nuances, aren't there? And I think arguably the, the closer relationship you have with somebody, the more they're going to understand abbreviations. For example, if you, you have started sending me this Salute emoji, um, which did make me smile at first. So I think if you have a close relationship—
Al ElliottNo, it's a bit tired. Stop.
Leanne ElliottI worry I'm being bossy. You tend to send it when I ask you to do something.
Al ElliottNo, it's more of a like, will cope, will comply.
Leanne ElliottExactly, exactly. Um, well, I think what's interesting, I think, yeah, the, the depth and strength of relationship will, will make a difference, as it always does. But it does feed into kind of other research we've heard about as well, isn't it, in terms of The more effort you put into it, the more valuable it's seen by the person looking at it. There's been lots of research into that. So things like the open kitchens in restaurants, if people can see people making the food, they literally see the effort and they'll report that it tastes better and they enjoy the meal more and blah, blah, blah. So I think it's an extension of that, but it's interesting how regardless of the new technology that comes in, we're still flawed humans that will interpret behaviors in a similar way, whether it's using tech or not. So I think, yeah, it's, again, and it's going back to what I was saying in terms of our predictions. I think lots is changing at the minute in terms of tech, but ultimately it's really gonna emphasise how human we are and actually understanding those fundamentals is gonna separate the very best business owners from the rest.
Al ElliottLovely, lovely. Well, that concludes our news roundup. I thought that was a really good one, actually.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I thought it was alright as well, yeah. Well done, us.
Al ElliottYeah, well done us. Yes, if you like, just send us a cheque. We'll give— the address is in the show notes. So after this very short break, we'll be back with this week's hot take from Meenakshi. You do not want to miss this. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Seamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on Fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioral science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. As regular listeners will now know, every week on a Tuesday, We ask a workplace expert for their hot take on the world of work. We're looking for bold insights. We want surprising predictions. We might even consider an unpopular opinion. What is going on in the world of work? What is broken, and what is coming next? This week's hot take comes from a powerhouse in leadership and workplace culture, Minakshi Iyer, founder of North Star Solutions and Services LLC, with over 25 years in people, business. and technology, Meenakshi has spent her career helping leaders navigate change, complexity, and uncertainty. She is a certified professional and agile coach with over 700 hours of coaching experience, guiding professionals to lead with agility, self-awareness, and resilience. Now, you might think the start of the new year is the perfect time for planning and goal setting. I don't know. And you know what? Meenakshi is here to call BS. Meenakshi, welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. It's always a pleasure talking to you. You're one of my favorite people to catch up with, so I'm really pleased that now our listeners get an introduction to you as well. For those who haven't heard of you, would you mind telling us who you are, what you do, and what you're famous for? I listen to your podcast, so it's, it's, uh, fantastic to be on the other side today. Who I am is a techie turned leadership coach, primarily focused on working with technology leaders Specifically mid-level leaders, women in tech, and then folks like myself who speak English primarily for work. English is not our first language. And that's a whole nother conversation. I have many thoughts about how we refer to languages as first, second, and such. I think there's a— so the reason I got involved in this space is based on my own experience in the world of technology and how I saw Several colonial attitudes still very alive and well. And we possibly don't talk about them as much, but they are how work gets done and who does the work and who's the customer more often than not and things like that. And so, I am a lean, agile, human-centered design practitioner, and I bring in a lot of principles and practices from the technology world and—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottHelp technology leaders also transition those, help them successfully transfer those skills as people leaders. That's primarily what I do. I wanna get straight into it, 'cause I know this is gonna be a juicy one. What is your hot take? Given the time of year, I wanna say my hot take is the whole world celebrating New Year's Day on January 1st, and everybody talking about New Year goals and everything. In January. I don't think that works for everyone. It's definitely not working for me. And I've noticed it in the last couple of years. It's become very clear for me. So I think everybody around the world, regardless of where you live, what culture you come from, being sort of forced to celebrate New Year on January 1st is a bit of BS. I think that's my hot take. And, you know, there's a couple of things. One is, I saw— this was the first year I saw at least 3 or 4 LinkedIn posts where people are saying some of the same things. They're like, particularly those of us that live in the Northern Hemisphere, this is winter. And I, for one, I feel like hibernating the whole winter. I'm not thinking about goals and planning. I'm not in that phase. at all. And I realized that I've been fed this culture, so I don't do enough to honor my own body's rhythms, which are actually in sync with nature. And I don't feel the same kind of energy that I do later on in the year during the warmer months where I really feel like planning. And so, I started doing some digging. And also, in my own culture, I'm a practicing Hindu. And in our calendar, and we follow a lunisolar calendar, so you might want to look that up. So it's based on the lunar phases of the moon, but then it also takes into account the solar year, which means the Earth completing one circle around the sun. So growing up, our New Years are in March or April, in that, in that phase, in that timeframe. And that feels Perfect, because that's spring and new life and all of that. And this time of year, we start getting into marking the end of winter. It's harvest festivals and all of that. So we have come so far away from our ancient roots, agrarian calendars, agrarian, primarily agrarian ways of life, which inherently are in sync with nature. And so similarly with our bodies, we all have a circadian rhythm. So if you look at all other living beings, they wake up at dawn and sort of go back to their homes or nests at dusk. We, on the other hand, we somehow think we just need to live 24/7 and we don't seem to have an off button. And I see the same reflected in this pressure that we put on ourselves and popular culture puts on us that We have to have New Year's resolutions. We have to have New Year goals. And everything needs to happen somehow miraculously between December 31st and January 1st. And I think that's absolutely absurd and so far away from being in sync with nature. And I think that particularly in corporate culture, as you think about companies that are global in nature, that do planning at an enterprise level, we have come so, so far away that we don't pay attention to these things and we don't give importance to local cultures and local practices. And everything is sort of homogenized, much to the detriment of humanity. And that sentiment is becoming stronger and stronger in me as I'm growing older. And really going back to my own culture and our practices and how everything was in sync and how much more happier and healthier we were as human beings and as a society. I'm originally from India, and we experienced more than 2 centuries of colonization. And the damage it's done is the fact that today English is the language I'm most fluent in. And not my own mother tongue. And knowingly or unknowingly, the decisions that were made and the choices my parents made, the kind of education I received, they all have come together to be the person I am today. But at the same time, there is this grief that I carry with me now also as an adult that I don't have the same connection with my own language and culture.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne Elliottthat I would have liked to have. And I've lost— because of that, I've lost access to so much of this ancient wisdom that is so necessary in today's life to actually live a good life. And so I have to now go look for it. And then I find it more often than not expressed in the English language. So I'm always getting a translated version of my own ancient wisdom from my own culture. So I think that The challenges that I'm seeing myself, my clients, and folks that I interact with facing is we don't trust ourselves enough. We more often than not experience this fear of missing out, being current, being in the know. And because of all that, I think we give away so much power. to the systems that we are a part of. And then we wonder why the systems are working against us and not for us. And then we feel like there's very little that we can do to bring about any sustainable change. And I think that could not be farther from the truth. And so, I call myself a self-leadership, personal agility, and change leadership coach. And my fundamental beliefs are that we all have the ability to lead from where we are with what we have. But unless we realize the power that resides within us, I think it'll be very challenging to do that. So, and to me, those are all pathways to burnout because you're always trying to live up to somebody else's expectations without being aware of your own strengths and limitations and what works for you. Yeah, it's exhausting. And of course it is because the noise in the world It's very loud right now. But luckily you have something else to offer people who might be feeling a bit overwhelmed and anxious at this time of year. Tell us about your incredible conference. So my coaching and consulting practice is called North Star Solutions and Services, and this year is its 6th year. So I started this conference in 2020. So this would be the 6th annual conference. And for the last 5 years, I've had the incredible opportunity to collaborate with the amazing Tiffany Castaño to co-host this conference. And every year we bring very topical conversations. And when we met was the burnout piece 2 years ago, Burnout: The Silent Pandemic. We are picking up that conversation again this year. And the theme is Prioritizing Mental Well-Being in a Noisy World. And when we started planning for this conference about 5 months ago, we kind of saw what was happening in the world. And both Tiffany and I live in the US. And for us particularly, it's been a very, very challenging time. So we felt that regardless of— and this is the thing— we felt that regardless of how the elections turn out, this topic was going to be relevant because of everything that's That's happened up until then. So our focus really is to help both individuals and organizations, leaders at all levels, to one, learn to accept where we are. So we are not saying this is an easy thing to do. So we are acknowledging the challenging time we are in. But then we want to offer strategies and tools for leaders at all levels So that they can support themselves and their teams in maintaining and also making mental well-being an integral part of the conversation within organizations. So we have talks, panel discussion, and we are really excited about having Sally Clark, who we met through you, burnout expert and researcher and author. She'll be She, she's graciously accepted to do our closing keynote at the conference. Fantastic. Yeah, so it's happening on Friday, the 28th of February, from 11 AM to 4 PM Eastern Time, Eastern Standard Time, which we are hoping is friendly for all of US and most of Europe.
Al ElliottWell, Meenakshi makes this fascinating point about how forcing everyone to do the— follow the same calendar for goal setting ignores both the natural rhythms and the cultural differences. Particularly interesting for workplaces who are pushing this New Year, New Goals initiative in the middle of winter, which seems a very— now she's mentioned it, it seems a very stupid thing to do.
Leanne ElliottI really like this idea that Menakshi brought in, that the body's natural rhythm is in conflict with corporate expectations. And I think we kind of forget that the, the kind of business corporate world that we live in is only about 130 30 years old. Um, you know, before that, evolutionarily speaking, we were much more in sync with, with the general nature. So it makes sense that actually our psychology feels a bit, a bit in, in conflict around that. I mean, I mean, we're talking of course here in terms of the Northern Hemisphere, but January is when we feel inclined to, to hibernate, not to set ambitious goals and wonder about how we're going to change the world. Um, I think change needs to feel Fresh, not forced. Um, you know, and it's called, it's called the fresh start effect in psychology. We've talked about this before, but it's that feeling of, do you know when you flip, um, a fresh page of a notebook?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottOr you open a new notebook for the first time, you're like, it's that little spark of motivation and you just feel like you can, you can just do things differently because you've got a fresh piece of paper. Um, and that's basically what psychologists call the fresh start effect. So the idea that certain moments in time what we call temporal landmarks give us a mental reset. So it's basically gonna mean that we're more likely to commit to, to new goals. And it is why so many people make New Year resolutions, because New Year could be a temporal landmark for many people.
Al ElliottJust to be clear, temporal landmark would be something like New Year, equinox, longest day?
Leanne ElliottNo, no, it's more, it's more a moment in time that means something to us. So it could be getting married, it could be starting a new job, it could be, um, the recent election. It's basically a moment in time that, that enables us, for whatever reason specific to us, to associate kind of past self with future self. Um, and that's— this temporal landmark is kind of the line in, in that sand. Um, so yeah, January might not be the best time for everybody, and I think it's just this kind of cultural expectation that it has to be for everybody. Everything from kind of marketing to what we see on the telly to, to all sorts, really. Um, but yeah, as I said, any, any Temporal landmark, um, a birthday, um, first day of a new job, all that type of thing can create these, these moments of feeling a fresh start, that mental reset, as I said, making it easy to, to take on new habits. So yeah, I think, I think often January isn't the best time. We're all a bit exhausted, we're all a bit tired, we're all a bit chubby after Christmas, um, and I just think it's not the best environment for motivation. Um, I like the idea of spring, you know, we all feel that when the little clocks go forward I'm not wishing my life away, but I do have a countdown as how many days are left until the clocks go forward, because just lighter nights make such a difference. Um, so yeah, I think it doesn't, doesn't make all the sense. It makes total sense why nobody actually sticks to the resolutions that they do. I love this idea of getting back into a more natural cycle of our bodies and nature and the world around us, being mindful, being present. Um, yeah, I think April is going to be my new, new year.
Al ElliottI love it, I love it. And I think she mentioned a conference as well.
Leanne ElliottWhat's going on with that? Absolutely, yeah, particularly if you are, if you are struggling at the minute, if you're finding this whole kind of January, February a bit of a slog, um, and you enjoyed today's conversation, then you won't want to miss out on the 6th Annual World of Work Conference, all online, all digital, happening Friday the 28th of February from 11 AM to 4 PM ET. That's 4 PM to 9 PM GMT, so everybody's happy. This year's theme is prioritising mental wellbeing in a noisy world. And it's all about how we as leaders and humans can stay grounded amid the chaos of today's world. And goodness, there is a lot of it. Um, it is a packed agenda. It's got so many great panelists, top speakers. Tiffany, um, who Manakshi mentioned, her partner, will be doing a session. Um, there's another, um, session looking at building a culture of wellbeing. And then there is friend of the show Sally Clark. She is providing the closing keynote speech. And I believe, and I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say this, But I'm gonna say it anyway. I believe she's gonna be sharing her latest results of her burnout research, so it might be like exclusive, first time you're ever gonna hear it. Um, so you definitely wanna go and check it out. It's gonna be incredible. I'll be there as well. Um, if you want a ticket, they are $47, a bargain for all of these incredible speakers, but you can save $10 on that with the code SPEAKER10. Um, at the checkout. I'll leave all the links and that code in the show notes.
Al ElliottAnyway, on to my favorite time of the week. It's time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottThat's me.
Al ElliottThat is her over there. That's the lady woman over there who's my wife, my co-host, and my world. Anyway, just in case you hadn't worked it out yet, Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist with decades of experience helping organizations create amazing workplace cultures. She's got fancy letters after her name. She's just an incredible woman. It's her job to give our lovely listeners— that's you— advice on work-related problems. So, Leanne, the first problem is this: employee surveys. Everyone talks about them like I should know what they are, but I'm scared to admit that I actually don't. Hi, Leanne. I own a relatively small business, about 16 people including contractors, and I keep hearing about these employee surveys, employee NPS, Gallup, and all sorts of things. I feel like I should be doing something here, but honestly, I'm lost. Could you explain it to me like I'm 5 years old? There's another one, ELI5. There you go.
Leanne ElliottWhat's ELI5?
Al ElliottExplain it like I'm 5.
Leanne ElliottOh, right, okay.
Al ElliottWhat actually matters when it comes to measuring how my team is doing? And are all surveys basically the same? And then also I've got a PS here. Are they even called employee surveys? Am I using the right word?
Leanne ElliottEmployee surveys is a very catch-all term for many different things, and not all surveys are made equal. That is lesson number one. Why? Oh, you know what, it doesn't matter what everyone else is doing, and don't feel the pressure to be like, oh, they're doing on your survey, I should probably do the same thing. No, you don't. All you need to really understand is if you're collecting data, why are you collecting that data and what are you going to do with it once you've got it? In terms of employee surveys that I believe in as a psychologist, that's linked to the world of employee engagement. And what that means is basically how people think and feel in our business impacts their performance. and impacts their outcomes as an individual in terms of their health and well-being, their commitment to their job. As an organisation, how much money I'm making, how profitable I am, how good my, my staff retention is. With employee engagement, there's only so many things we can do as business leaders to create an environment that is engaging for staff, which basically means it's a place that they want to be. And if you use your survey to explore these areas, which include reason, role, resources, recognition, etc., etc., that we provide as a business leader. If we ask them questions around how we're doing on those, on those things— do they have a clear role? Do they feel connected to the mission of the business? Do they have positive work relationships? Do they have all the resources they need? If we ask them questions on that in an employee survey, then we're going to start to gain data as well in terms of how that's translating into the thoughts and feelings that they have about their their work and how that's impacting their performance as individuals and as an organization. That whole process of employee engagement is called a predictive model of employee engagement because you can follow through the data. So you know that if people feel connected to their work, they're more likely to feel satisfaction in their job, and they're more likely to exhibit discretionary effort, going above and beyond the extra mile. And that's a nice thing you want to see as a business owner. So, if you have an employee survey that looks at this type of model of engagement, then it's going to give you really useful data that you can use to create a better place for your employees to be and will improve the performance of your business. Those 2 things are not mutually exclusive, and when done well, one will directly impact the other. Other employee surveys might look more at wellbeing. Other employee surveys might look at what we call ENPS, which is an employee satisfaction score.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottThose are fine, but it's going to give us kind of the what, not the why. We're going to know if people are happy, but we're not really going to know what they're happy about. We're going to know that people are experiencing really poor wellbeing, but we might not necessarily know what's driving that, whether it's something in the workplace or something outside of that, more than likely a combination of the two. So, which is why I prefer employee engagement. It's very closely linked to wellbeing. So typically, an engaged employee is going to experience high levels of wellbeing. Employee engagement, there is bags of research that back up that positively engaged employees employees perform better and experience more positive outcomes as an individual and for their business. Um, our customers are more happy, we're more profitable, we're faster to market. Name a commercial metric, it will improve if your people are engaged. So for me, unless you just want to get a general idea of sentiment or feedback about something specific, an employee survey should always be linked to employee engagement, and specifically a predictive model of employee engagement. And that is where surveys are not made equal. You're going to hear of lots very popular ones like HIBOP and OfficeVibe, they're not measuring exactly what you want them to measure, and they're not giving you the why. You want the why, otherwise you're just asking questions for the sake of it, you know?
Al ElliottThat's such a great, like, summary, I think. And what, what I think a lot of psychologists— and sorry, psychologists— but what I think they'll do is they'll go into, like, the depth of, like, well, the research shows this, and we need qualitative and quantitative data. And you've just gone, no, What you want to know is why people are happy. Um, you want to know the basics. And just in case you're interested, the, uh, there is, there are 7, well, 6 foundations of a great workplace culture and a moderator, and it's called the RX7. It's the model that Leanne came up with. If you're interested, get in touch with us because we can definitely tell you a bit more about that. But good surveys will measure all of those things. They probably won't call it the RX7 because we just made that up one night when we're having a couple glasses of wine. Um, we didn't make up the, we made up the name. Um, but, uh, yeah, this is the clear thing. I think the key thing that you need to take away from this is that Why are you doing the survey? You should approach it as a scientist going, okay, I'm interested and curious in the results, not as an egotist saying, I want to— I want people to prove they love me. Um, or I— even worse, like one of the ones where it was an Indian company we reported on a few weeks ago, where if you didn't— if you didn't, um, if you anonymously replied in a certain way, then you were set aside and you were asked— you went in for a review and potentially fired. Oh my God. That's the complete opposite way of why you should be doing things. The whole point of employee survey is to approach it as a scientist and go, I'm curious about what's not working well. Let's go and find that out. The last thing I would say probably about this is that yes, you can run it yourself. HiBob, OfficeVibe, Qualtrics— Qualtrics, I don't know how you say that— Gallup to a certain extent. Okay. I mean, they do do a job, but the fact is, unless you've got someone who can actually translate what that means, If you're not careful, you'll start reading the wrong things out of it. Like, can you imagine if, if you got the results from an OpenAI research and you looked at all the data, you're like, I don't know what I'm looking at. You'd need someone clever to actually be able to translate that, and that someone is Leanne. So even if you are using those, get in touch with Leanne because, um, I think relatively inexpensively, and Leanne will look at her stuff and tell you basically what it all means.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. Other general things, if you do run a survey, it should be anonymous. You should, you know, Hold confidentiality for people answering it. Do something with the results. If you don't, you're going to do more harm than good by asking the questions and do nothing with the feedback that you get. It's going to erode trust and people are just going to think, what's the point? And finally, I'd just say if there's people around you that are running employee surveys, ask them the questions like, what are you asking? What are you finding out? What data are you finding and how are you applying it? Because it should feed directly into people and culture, into operations, potentially even marketing as well, certainly in terms of recruitment. It should inform lots of different processes and ways of working within your organization. So yeah, I'd just ask if you're hearing lots of people using it, I'd ask the questions. And, um, I think you're going to find out pretty quickly if people are kind of— if all they're talking about is satisfaction, then it's not a survey that is worth your time.
Al ElliottOkay, Lee, right, so question number 2, and I'm going to summarize it saying redundancy red flags. This person says, how do I know if I'm And what do I do if I am? So here we go. I can see the writing on the wall at my company. Redundancies are coming. Everyone knows it. I'm trying to figure out if I'm on the chopping block. Are there any telltale signs that I am next? And yes, before you ask, Leanne, I'm already starting to look elsewhere, but I'd rather be prepared than surprised. Oh, and if it is me next, any tips for surviving it?
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure what the question is. It sounds like you've answered it yourself. Um, I think, yeah, if you're seeing red flags, and that's going to be things like delays in communications, any kind of ambiguity, lack of commitment, hiring freezes, um, people leaving quietly, um, are gonna be—
Al ElliottThere was a term for that we learned the other week, wasn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it's called quiet layoffs, is it? Right, yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, it sounds like you already know, you're already looking. Cool, good for you. Um, does it matter if you know if you're next or not? Um, it sounds like it's highly, highly possible. Um, you know, I don't know the inner workings of your organization and, and how those decisions are being made. And that again is a red flag, because if an organization is starting to make layoffs, there should be a period of consultation when they'll tell you exactly how those layoffs are going to be made and how those roles are going to be assessed in terms of the value they add to the business. And I think that's the key thing. And it's so hard. I've been made redundant myself, and it is— it's, it's such a hard process. It is a workplace trauma. It's what we call a workplace trauma. It's a hard process to go through because it is change that's done to us very quickly without our control, and the transition we need to go through psychologically to accept said change done to us quickly without our control takes a lot of time. And often it's that dissonance between our external environment, which has completely changed, and our internal psychology that is still trying to process it. And it's that dissonance that's uncomfortable and can cause lots of stress and anxiety. So I think it's knowing that that is the reaction you're gonna have, um, should you be made redundant. And the thing I would try and focus on, and I know it's really hard, is understanding that in the majority of cases, if an organization does redundancy right, they're not making you redundant as a person. They're not saying, you individual, James, Jeff, Mary, whatever, you are not of value in this organization. You as a person don't add any value. See you later. What they should be saying, and will be saying in 99.9% of cases, is that the role, the function of your role, no longer exists within the business. And it could be that there'll be retrenchment as part of that. There could be that there'll be sidesteps or secondments offered. There's lots of different variations. Um, but if you're not getting any communications around this, there isn't being that period of consultation that's being talked about, um, then yeah, another red flag. Again, a good organization is going to offer lots of wraparound care in terms of helping you manage that transition period, in terms of support groups for employees that might similar demographics, for example, single parents. It should be that a redundancy process will also include what we call outsourcing. So, an organisation working with you to update your resume and brush up your LinkedIn and understand kind of what the recruitment market's saying right now. So, it sounds like you already know. So, I think, what would I say in terms of how you can prepare? I would say anything you can do to build up your level of self-awareness and what we call self-efficacy, your confidence. would be really good right now. You know, I always recommend Dr. Audrey Tang's books, Leader's Guide to Resilience, Leader's Guide to Wellbeing. Fabulous. Lots of brilliant self-coaching exercises in there. Anything you can do to build up that positivity is going to be of help. Al's pointing at me. Am I time up?
Al ElliottI'm not. I'm pointing behind me because these are— that's where Audrey's books are.
Leanne ElliottI think it looks like the Oscar music or something.
Al ElliottNo, that was, that was brilliant. That was absolutely brilliant. And I think, I think what the key thing from that which I really loved was you saying it's the role is being they say no to the role, not no to you. And I think that's, that's, yeah, that's, that's something which is probably quite comforting, I think. Okay, question number 3. This is very apt, and, um, and I— it's just coincidence. Um, my manager's January resolutions become February's forgotten memories. Is there a better way? So this person writes, my manager is driving me up the wall with their new year, new team obsession. Every January we get these grand plans about how we're going to revolutionize everything— team stand-ups, feedback sessions, monthly socials, you name it. But by February, it's all forgotten and we're all back to normal. Is there actually a right way to do these sort of New Year or team resolutions that actually stick, or should I just smile and nod until this blows over like always?
Leanne ElliottI think there's an element of smiling and nodding until it blows over if this is the behavior pattern that your manager is into. It's how, how much it's worth your time and effort. I think what I'd say is that if there's An idea that you think, actually, this could be really important for the team, this could help with performance or well-being or customer satisfaction or engagement. If there's, if there's an idea amidst her many shiny ones that our entrepreneurs like to have, um, then, then I'd pick up on that one and I'd, I'd say, you know, how do we, how do we make this work? Maybe say, can I take this on as a project? Put together a little working group with the team, our steering group, that's going to kind of own Um, this new way of working or intervention or process or whatever it is and, and lead that forward. Um, it sounds like somebody else is going to have to take accountability for this. It sounds like your manager might not be a completer finisher. Um, again, as many entrepreneurs are. I'm assuming this person's entrepreneur. I might— they might not be. Um, so yeah, I think, I think that's a, that's a thing to say. Refer back to Menachem. Um, she would have given you lots of thoughts and advice there in terms of when is a better time to plan and set goals. Um, yeah, it's hard because you're gonna have to impact— you have to change the behavior of your manager, um, to then put in a different change process. So it's— yeah, it's tricky really. I'd say smile and nod, let it go. And if there's an idea in there, um, that you think could actually benefit the team, pick that up yourself. Um, and then maybe just send her a copy of, um, Meenakshi's hot take, which we usually post on, um, on YouTube just as a standalone.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottsegment, just in case she clicks when she hears this question. Um, just maybe send her that video of Meenakshi and go, do you know what, I'm just wondering whether January is the best time. I have this really fresh way of thinking. What do you think? Should we go for an April? Um, and see what kind of feedback you get.
Al ElliottBrilliant advice. I think that, as Leanne said, if this is an entrepreneur, then just bear in mind that entrepreneurs tend to, uh, tend to be sort of overtly optimistic, uh, always think that something will take a tenth of the time it actually does. And often we'll move on to another idea within, within days, or sometimes in my case, minutes. Uh, so yes, if it is an entrepreneur, then perhaps just go, well, this is just the way they think. Um, if it is a manager, then like you said, maybe, maybe this manager is getting pressure from the top to actually do, to every single year do, right, okay, what are you doing this year, uh, for your team? And so this person has to, has to go and create new things. Maybe this manager thinks it's as ridiculous as you are, as you do, which is why they never really Push through because they just do it for, you know, for their manager, uh, or their boss or something. So it's human behavior. And as Leanne will tell you, who's a psychologist, it's, uh, it's, it's both really complex and really simple. Uh, most people just do things because of what they think other people are gonna think of them. And if they didn't do a New Year's resolution, perhaps other managers might go, oh, look at them, they're slacking a bit. They're not, you know, they're no, no New Year's resolutions this year. But, uh, anyway, let us know how it goes. I'd like to know. I, I love Leanne's advice of going, yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottJust let it blow over because you can't change, you can't change people's behavior, um, easily, particularly if they're your manager. So, uh, yeah, great advice. Anything to add before we go, love?
Leanne ElliottNo, I don't think so. I think, I wonder whether that's just a bit of a mantra for 2025, isn't it, of, of what's in your locus of control. Yeah. And if you can't control it and it's not really going to impact your life all that much, just let it go. Let it go. Put it in that big red balloon and let it go. Or as I said, yeah, take on those, those projects yourself that you can, you can push through. I think we spend lot of time and energy thinking about how we can change other people, and if they don't want to change themselves, you know, it starts with that, doesn't it? So yeah, maybe thought for 2025, just to keep ourselves all a bit more centered and calm in a year that is already very interesting.
Al ElliottWhen psychologists say something's very interesting, it usually means there's something badly gone wrong. Uh, anyway, great work, Leanne, as always. If you have a question you'd like me to put to Leanne, then check the show notes for more details. This Thursday, as I alluded to a second ago, we have a big cheese from HubSpot, uh, Kravin O'Malley, who's the VP of Corporate Sales and a genuinely lovely fella.
Leanne ElliottYeah, a really, really lovely fella. I met him at Grow, um, in London back in November. Fabulous, fabulous, fabulous guy. Um, and of course, we will be back next Tuesday with another This Week in Work. All of our usual things— our hot takes, our news roundup, and our world-famous weekly workplace surgery.
Al ElliottIf you want to support the show, then maybe consider going on LinkedIn and posting about us saying something like, um, oh, these 2 guys at Truth Love— Truth Love and Work? That's a different podcast with a different audience. Truth, Lies and Work, we love them. They, they are just the best podcast in the world, or something like that. It'd be really nice. Tag us in and we might send you something nice.
Leanne ElliottMight being the word.
Al ElliottOkay, bye-bye for now. Bye-bye.