Episode 176 · 4 March 2025 · 52:30
Google’s 60-Hour workweek, Asda's bonus backlash and how to go from friend to boss. PLUS! Leaders are human too, with Dr Elaine Smith - This Week in Work, 4th March 2025
Featuring Elaine Smith
Google’s 60-Hour workweek, Asda's bonus backlash and how to go from friend to boss. PLUS! Leaders are human too, with Dr Elaine Smith - This Week in Work, 4th March 2025
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Asda scraps 10,000 staff bonuses
news roundup#asda#bonuses#retail#employee-benefits
Sergey Brin calls for 60-hour workweeks
news roundup#sergey-brin#workweek#google#productivity
The employability paradox
news roundup#employability#talent#hiring#skills-gap
Hot Take: Dr. Elaine Smith on why leaders are human too
Workplace Surgery: From friend to boss
workplace surgery#workplace#promotion#friendship#management
Workplace Surgery: The unlimited holiday trap
workplace surgery#unlimited-holiday#time-off#ambiguity#policy
Workplace Surgery: The HR battleground
workplace surgery#hr#battleground#conflict#director
Outro: What's coming up this Thursday
Show notes
Google's 60-Hour Workweek, Asda's Bonus Backlash & How to Go From Friend to Boss — Plus: Leaders Are Human Too, with Dr. Elaine Smith
Guest: Dr. Elaine Smith — Clinical Psychologist and Business Wellbeing Consultant, Psychological Wellbeing Lead at Hope.io, and co-founder of Think Resilience.
Leaders look composed. They look confident. They look like they have it all figured out. But beneath the surface, many of them are struggling — and nobody's checking in on them.
Dr. Elaine Smith joins Al and Leanne to deliver this week's hot take: leaders need support no matter how much they're paid, how senior the role is, or how much they appear to have it together. They dig into why the "illusion of composure" leaves senior leaders isolated, how supporting leaders to show vulnerability creates more compassionate decision-making, and why it's a complete win-win when organisations support the people at the top.
Plus, in the news roundup: Asda scraps bonuses for 10,000 managers, Sergey Brin calls for 60-hour workweeks, and the "employability paradox" that could change how you think about promotions.
And in the World-Famous Workplace Surgery: how to go from friend to boss without losing your mates, the unlimited holiday trap, and an HR director caught in the middle of a flexible working war.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Asda scraps bonuses for 10,000 managers More than 10,000 Asda managers won't receive their annual bonuses after a challenging financial year. Al and Leanne dig into what happens to trust and motivation when rewards disappear — and why the fact that half of Asda employees don't believe in the company's strategy might be the bigger problem. Source →
2. Sergey Brin calls for 60-hour workweeks Google co-founder Sergey Brin has reportedly told employees to return to the office every weekday and suggested 60 hours a week as the "sweet spot" for productivity — blaming remote work for Google falling behind in the AI race. Leanne is not convinced. Source →
3. The employability paradox Promoting staff increases their loyalty — but it also makes them more attractive to other employers. Al and Leanne explore how this paradox could actually be a smart retention strategy, and why it might break the cycle of stagnant career progression.
🧠 Hot Take of the Week: Dr. Elaine Smith
Leaders are human too. High-ranking leaders — regardless of salary or seniority — need emotional and mental support just like anyone else. Dr. Elaine Smith explains:
- The illusion of composure: Just because leaders appear composed and confident doesn't mean they aren't struggling beneath the surface.
- Supporting leaders benefits everyone: When leaders are supported to show vulnerability, it fosters connection, improves workplace culture, and can lead to more compassionate decision-making.
- It's completely win-win: Supporting leaders isn't a zero-sum game. It's good for the individual, good for the team, and good for the business.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- From friend to boss: A new team lead is struggling with a former peer undermining their authority. How do you establish authority without coming off as power-hungry?
- The unlimited holiday trap: An "unlimited holiday" policy sounded great in theory but has created chaos. How can managers set boundaries without undermining company policy?
- The HR battleground: An HR Director is caught in the middle of a company war over flexible working policies. Should they pick a side, or is there a way to mediate without losing credibility?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
More From Dr. Elaine Smith
- Leadership Retreat (Think Resilience): thinkresilience.co.uk
- Online Course — Creating Compassionate Workplaces: drelainesmith.com/online-leadership-course-stress-resilience
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dr-elaine-smith-creating-compassionate-workplaces
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Elaine SmithNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, we are. Welcome, welcome. Hello. Anything happening in DEI recently, Lee? Anything new?
Leanne ElliottUm, I've heard various things. Um, I think, I think we fixed it so we can cancel most of it, um, or it doesn't really work, so we might as well just cancel it and not replace it with anything, um, or we just need to be a A bit more bully, bully, bully, bully, bully, bully. I don't know.
Al ElliottWe will be addressing that, don't you worry.
Leanne ElliottI'm trying not to say the T word because you told me I can't talk about politics.
Al ElliottWell, it's not you can't talk about politics. It's just as a work thing, we want to be kind of politics agnostic. Although, to be fair, if you're a regular listener, you probably know already where we stand on our, on our politics and what we like and who we don't. Anyway, if you're a regular, just tune out for about 18 seconds while I let the new listeners know how this little pod works. Today is Tuesday, which is our This Week in Work episode where we update you on what's happening in the world of work. Plus, have a hot take from an expert guest, plus your weekly dose of the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Yes.
Leanne ElliottAnd then every Thursday, we bring you a brand new interview with an expert guest who knows how to create great workplace cultures. This Thursday, it's a good one. It is a genuine 45-minute masterclass on being a great manager.
Al ElliottSo, with that out the way, Lea, what time is it?
Leanne ElliottIt's my favourite time of the week, Al. It's time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle.
Al ElliottCue that jingle. Okay, Lea, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottAsda has scrapped 10,000 staff bonuses.
Elaine SmithOh.
Leanne ElliottI know, yeah, every little helps. Well, apparently not enough.
Al ElliottThat's Tesco.
Leanne ElliottOh, is it? Oh, there you go. That's Asda's problem right there, isn't it? Their branding is just not resonating. But yes, all the major UK newspapers are talking about the big news coming out of Asda that more than 10,000 managers will have been told they won't receive their annual bonus this year.
Al ElliottJust before you carry on, the context for American listeners might be that Walmart owns Asda. So Asda's a big supermarket.
Leanne ElliottThey used to, they don't anymore.
Al ElliottOh, do they not?
Elaine SmithNo.
Al ElliottBut Asda's a big— it comes from Associated Dairies. That's where the name came from. And it's basically a big supermarket in the UK.
Leanne ElliottSorry, sorry. Grocery store. But anyway, the managers aren't getting their bonuses. So it does come after a bit of a tough year, declining sales, shrinking market share, that Waitrose seems to be doing very well at the moment. And what's been described as the worst Christmas performance in a decade. So what is happening? Well, typically managers at Asda expect to receive their bonus in the first quarter of the year. However, the supermarket's faltering performance does mean that those payouts are off the table. So the decision impacts roughly 10% of Asda's 134,500 employees, which is around 14,000 people. That's a lot of people. Asda's market share, as I said, has dropped by about 1.5% over the last 12 months. Sales are down by 5.2% in the 12 weeks leading up to end of January, and the financial report due out soon is expected to paint a pretty bleak picture, adding more pressure to an already struggling retailer. Alan Leighton, who was credited with turning Asda into a retail powerhouse in the 1990s— good times— uh, recently returned to lead the company. He is facing an uphill battle to revive what he calls the Asda DNA. Since his return, the company has also seen job cuts, including the departure of 13 regional managers as part of a restructuring effort. So why does this matter for employees? Well, the decision to cut bonuses, understandably, people aren't gonna like, and it's gonna hit morale pretty hard. One former senior Asda employee warned that morale will be at rock bottom, and some of the supermarket's top talent may start looking elsewhere. And it's not just speculation. Fewer than half of Asda's workers said they are confident in the company's strategy in a recent staff survey. There's also a lot of concern about how this will affect Asda's workplace culture, One recruiter even suggested the move could lead to anarchy within the company. And let's not forget, this comes off the heels of criticism from union chiefs over how Asda handled recent redundancies. Hundreds of head office staff were laid off without warning late last year, a move the GMB union called not the right way for a major employer to act, saying that very politely. Um, Asda's challenges aren't just internal. The supermarket has struggled since it was taken over, as I said, Al. by Issa Brothers and private equity group TDR Capital in 2021. Former chairman Lord Rose, who left in November, called Asda's performance embarrassing, and Mr. Layton has admitted it could take up to 5 years to turn things around. On top of all this, Asda is still searching for a permanent CEO. Doesn't help, does it, when you've got instability at the top after the sudden departure of Roger Burnley in 2021? Um, so yeah, as I said, the ongoing leadership void does add to the uncertainty as the company faces all the rising costs, the new recycling levies, National Insurance, and increase in the National Living Wage. Oh, it's a, it's a tricky, tricky time for Asda. And as I said, the, uh, the ripples through the organization is a real concern. When bonuses are cut, especially after a rough year, it can feel like a bit of a gut punch to those who've been putting in the work. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottOoh, it's a tough one. I mean, this is the problem I think with anything that is low margin is that, uh, is that the probably the biggest expense is going to be the labour costs. And so therefore when things get a little bit squeezed, then that's the first to kind of get devalued, I suppose. Is that the right word? Um, it's not, I mean, it's not good news. It's funny because, uh, Waitrose is another supermarket and I wanna say like Trader Joe's, but I dunno that I've got that reference right in the US. But basically it's a bit more of an upmarket supermarket, so your prices are probably 50 to 100% more on most things, then probably potentially 500% more on some others. A very, very fancy supermarket. But as you said before, they're doing well because they have the margin to be able to do that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think it's that statistic there that half of Asda employees don't believe in the strategy of Asda moving forward. That's a real red flag, isn't it? And I understand because I don't think Asda has found its place, or we found its place in the market. Like, in the '90s when it was booming, it was a supermarket that was— it was the first supermarket to have like the massive hyper huge supermarkets in the UK, wasn't it? Rotisserie chicken was a thing. Everyone went nuts over rotisserie chicken in Asda. And it just seems that now it's no longer the cheapest because we've got kind of competitors like Lidl and Aldi that have joined. We've not even got that they're kind of the family supermarket because again, with things like Tesco, they do have a lot of Clubcard deals, don't they? Goodness. And then you've got your high end, like your Waitrose and your Marks Spencer's food. I just think that everyone's a bit confused. We don't know what we're doing. We've been sold. We're going through this transition. It doesn't sound like it's been handled particularly well. And now you're punishing 14,000 managers by not giving them their bonus and also not telling that until the point at which it's due. You know, it's just being— it sounds like things are being handled really badly. Of course, there are commercial decisions that need to be made. Of course, financially speaking, this might be the right move. Yeah. As we've always said, and the same with redundancies, it's not about what decision is made, it's how that decision is executed. And once again, we are seeing a, yeah, lacking at a leadership level in terms of how to implement these decisions effectively.
Al ElliottFun fact, when I had my beer business back in 2004, 2005, 2006, it was actually cheaper to buy my alcohol from Asda than it was to buy from the wholesaler.
Leanne ElliottThere you have it. What else, what else have you seen this week, Al?
Al ElliottWell, this one caught my eye. I've always been, well, I'm not always, but Back in the day when I was starting my businesses, I was fascinated by, uh, by Google because it seemed to come from nowhere. Um, one, there's an article this week in, I believe it's TechCrunch, but the link will be in the show notes, um, where Sergey Brin, one of Google's OGs, one of the 2 people who started it, Larry, I forget his name, you're probably shouting at me, and Sergey Brin, uh, they're 2 Google co-founders. They have sent a memo to staff telling them to return to the office at least every weekday.
Leanne ElliottI'm out.
Elaine SmithI'm done.
Al ElliottCome back, Lelele. Sit back down. Sit back down.
Leanne ElliottCan't do another one.
Al ElliottOh, we're gonna have to. We're gonna have to. These, these good people need to know what's going on. So as I was saying, Sergio Bryn has told people to come back to the office at least every weekday, which again suggests a problem. So it's not 3 days a week like their current policy, but every single day. And apparently he thinks— now, Leanne, sit down and don't go anywhere because you're— I'm about— you're about to be What do the kids say? Shook?
Elaine SmithMm-hmm.
Al ElliottApparently he thinks 60 hours a workweek is the sweet spot for productivity. That's 12 hours a day for 5 days. I'm like, hold on a fucking minute here. This just doesn't make any sense. This is just crazy talk. But anyway, this isn't an official policy change yet, but it does show how much pressure these tech giants are feeling in this race to develop AGI. That's artificial general intelligence. To you and I, that's basically ChatGPT, which is not ChatGPT because Google got their own. But Bryn has apparently come back to Google specifically to help them catch up after ChatGPT really started taking market share away from them back in 2022. I mean, I do get it from one angle. Obviously, you're in a very competitive industry. If you do feel behind, there's a temptation to throw everything at the problem, like, you know, more hours, more face time, more collaboration. But 60 hours is a sweet spot. I'm just not sure the research backs that up at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure that my Leanne is gonna have something to say about that.
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure I understand. I understand. So he's saying that come back into the office at least 5 days a week.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottWork at least 60 hours a week. Yep. And what's AI got to do with the price of fish?
Al ElliottBecause they are behind with AI. So basically everyone else has overtaken them. So Anthropic, which is from Amazon, has overtaken them. ChatGPT, which is, which is, um, I think mainly what funds, uh, Microsoft, uh, AI.
Leanne ElliottSo he's blaming that on the fact that people have been working from home?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottAnd not in the office 5 days a week?
Al ElliottYes, exactly. He's talking about creativity you get when you get everyone together. He's talking about the fact that they all work really hard. If there's like a— maybe it worked for him, uh, him and Larry at the very beginning when they did start Google back in what, 2002, 2003? Maybe that's how they did it. So that's the only way he knows to win. But Google is just in kind of big trouble because there's quite a few AI startups which are taking on Google for search. When was the last time you actually Googled something? And when was the last time you Googled something and clicked on an advert? Because, you know, people say, oh, I never click on ads, but ads do work. But I imagine their revenue is way, way down.
Leanne ElliottI'm still a Google girl. Yeah, I do. I do Google stuff. I like to see where the source is from. Do you know what I mean? I always like that. Yeah. Where's that thing on, on ChatGPT or Or similar. Um, oh, I mean, whatever. I'm so, I'm so, I'm so bored of the bringing people back to a physical office is going to fix all of our productivity and innovation problems. It's not. It's really not, unless it's done with intention and unless it's, it's done in a way that is actually following some form of data that has been gathered about the current way of working. Then you're just not even going to know if it's going to have an impact or not. I think we just need to get to the point where we stop glorifying startup culture, which yes, might be 8 people in the same room 7 days a week, 60 hours a week, because that is often what is needed in startup. It's that hustle, it is that, that pace and speed is what's needed. Once you're then at this point of a multi-million dollar corporation, it's a very different mindset, it's a different, it's a different culture. And more to the point, like, it's just naive that People are willing to work that hard for a startup because they might have equity and they might end up being a Google or, you know, going to the moon. But the, the point is about Google, it's not there anymore. You've already lost the AI race. If you're this far behind, you've already lost. The best thing you can possibly do is think about what the next thing is going to be in terms of how AI will be applied, how you can use that with all the great minds that you have in Google that have dominated um, internet technology for the past 20 years. The way that, that young talent, any talent is now talking— forget young, actually, that was what I was incorrect then— any talent is talking is that they want more flexibility, they want more balance, they want more autonomy. They have realized that these long commutes or time away from their family actually isn't very effective for them sustainably. Working at a productive pace. It's just, there's so many things. I just think Google is in trouble, and I'm very surprised that this is the way they're going. And then it also screams as well, they've paid billions for these complexes that nobody's in. Google have YouTube.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottRight, yeah. So they've not— Google haven't been innovative for a long time, have they?
Al ElliottNo, and that's a great idea. What about if you went to YouTube and you went, right, let's put all of our AI work into YouTube because no one's really got that yet. What, what happens if you had an AI where you go to YouTube and go, I want to, like, I've been really getting into like, uh, joinery and stuff recently, so I might go, I want to see, um, how to make a butt joint, which is always funny because it's got the word butt in it. Uh, so what I, what the AI will do was scan all the videos, look at my previous, uh, history, work out What videos I click off on and what videos I watch to the end so it knows what my viewing style is and just create me one video that is basically a summary of maybe 5 different videos on butt joints and it puts it together all in real time or within like, you know, sort of 30 seconds. That's interesting. That is a great application of AI just to build another ChatGPT when there's already 2 out there.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Or at least put some effort into solving the problems that people are concerned about when it comes to AI or its limitations or its— I don't know.
Al ElliottAnyway, sorry, we're going slightly off work here for a second. I got a little bit on my, on my positioning soapbox. Le, what else have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottWell, speaking of talent and keeping it, have you heard of the employability paradox?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottNo. Well, let me tell you about it, because it could actually offer a smart strategy for, for retaining employees, maybe getting some more productivity out of them, especially when job satisfaction is on a bit of shaky ground with all these RTO mandates. So the employability paradox is the idea that promoting employees can increase their loyalty but also make them more attractive to other employers. Um, so ironically, the risk of promoting them might increase the risk of them leaving. So it is a bit of a, bit of a double-edged sword for, um, leaders. You want to reward your talent, but you also don't want to like hand them off to your competitors. But new research published in the Journal of Applied Psychology has offered fresh insights into this dilemma, Al. The study looked at turnover data from over 11,000 managers at large international restaurant chain between 2018 and 2023. It found that promoting employees early, particularly during employer-friendly labor markets, could actually reduce turnover when the market shifts, then move to favor job seekers. So the key findings were before the Great Resignation, internally promoted managers were slightly less likely to quit than those hired externally. During the Great Resignation, when job opportunities surged in 2021, internally promoted managers were 47% less likely to quit compared to their externally hired counterparts. So this suggests that early promotion can create a loyalty buffer that keeps employees grounded even when the job market heats up. So what is the psychology behind it? Well, another experiment with 300 working adults mirrored these findings. So employees were promoted in a simulated scenario. They felt more job security and organizational support, which made them less likely to jump ship when a tempting external offer came their way. And what can we learn from it? Well, apparently, maybe we need to prioritize internal promotions instead of defaulting to external hires. Leaders should focus on promoting from within. The study also showed that promoted managers not only stayed longer but outperformed performed external hires in revenue generation and team management. The other key is to promote before the market shifts. The best time to promote employees is during stable times, not as a knee-jerk reaction to labor shortages. How many people did we hear during the Great Resignation trying to, trying to offer late promotions and that ship had sailed? Um, but yes, if we do it at the right time, the approach reinforces loyalty when retention is most critical. And in terms of that long-term view, consistent talent development and clear career pathways help to build strong emotional bonds with employees. The strategy not only improves retention but also strengthens the entire organizational culture. So this research basically is saying don't let the paradox scare you too much. Yes, promotions might occasionally lead to departures, but the data is showing that there are exceptions, and the benefits of increased loyalty And performance far outweigh the risks. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, makes sense. If you look at any kind of sports team, then there's the, you know, the Ronaldos of the world where they're paid super, super big amounts of money and they'll just jump ship whenever, whenever they get a better offer. But then you get the rest of the team who aren't paid maybe quite as much, but they've been brought up through the ranks. And so they feel so much more loyalty to the team. Liverpool, Arsenal, I think are the two examples. where they do bring people up through the academy. Um, and, um, yeah, so I think I just got distracted there because Leanne, like, gave you a little bit, you know, a little something about football. Well done, well done. I do like football, I just know nothing about it. Uh, so yeah, that makes perfect sense. And really, it all boils down to just be a decent employer, be a decent leader. Um, don't promote people just to stop them from leaving. If they're gonna leave, then you've promoted them. And as Leanne said, that's probably where the paradox will come in, because if they're already thinking about leaving and you've made them You know, oh, CEO or VP of something. I know there's one particular company we work with where there's a few VPs, which I'm not sure necessarily should be VPs. Then that's controversial. Then that is essentially putting them out like, oh, you know, this person's now a VP, so this is now really important and this is a really important person and you should actually go and get them. Probably quite good for the person who's been promoted because they'll potentially get more money, but probably not so good for the organisation.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think as well, it's probably the thing, something like this is gonna is going to break this cycle we've been in the past few years of the employees have the power, the employers have the power, the employees have— do you know what I mean? Like the return to office mandate, it's a great resignation, it's just power shifts. And it's so disruptive. It's so disruptive for organizations and business owners. It's so disruptive for individuals. It's, it's just not— what's one of the most stressful things you can do in life is get a new job. We don't want to be doing that more than, than is necessary, and we won't be doing it if we're in an organization that treats us well and compensates Compensates us fairly and doesn't break our promises around bonuses, Asda. So I think the thing is, if you're in a position now where, all right, the job market is probably favoring the employer, and I think it's going to favor the employer more and more over the next 12 months, if you use this opportunity to actually look at the talent you have in your organization, figure out what they want from their career, what they want their next move to be, and create these career pathways for them to get it That, that loyalty buffer is, as the research shows, is, is going to be there. They're the people that are going to want to stick with you, and they're the people that end up being with the same organization for years and years and years because they know that they're gonna have these opportunities and they're gonna be fulfilled. And as an employer, you're actually supporting that and making it happen. Um, I don't understand how we've got into this us and them mentality that seems so deep and ingrained on both sides. TikTok, you know, no better. Um, I think it's just a real shame because we're missing the point actually that work is good for the human experience. Organisations need people to work to be good. That makes more money, that makes the economy better, and we all, we're all thriving from it. Obviously very simple because then you've got geo-global politics to put a layer on, and I don't really understand that at all. Um, so yeah, that's, that's my thoughts.
Al ElliottLeanne, I'm gonna stop you there because we have to take a very, very short break. But after this, we're back with this week's hot take, which is from Dr. Elaine Smith. You are gonna love this one. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Elaine SmithIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys? I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Al, what is today's hot take?
Al ElliottRight, we've got a brilliant guest for you today. Today we're joined by Dr. Elaine Smith, who's a clinical psychologist and a business wellbeing consultant who's all about making workplaces more compassionate. She's a psychological wellbeing lead at Hope.io and co-founder of Think Resilience, a new leadership retreat launching in East Lothian this April. East Lothian, that's my granny used to live in East Lothian.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we had a good chat about Scotland actually. Yeah, yeah.
Al ElliottYeah, I used to love going up there. Davidson's Mains, if you're listening, Dr. Elaine, tell us how far you are from Davidson's Mains. That's where my granny lived. Anyway, Elaine's work focuses on helping leaders feel more confident about talking about mental health with their teams. Her Creating Compassionate Workplaces course gives leaders the tools they need to support their staff without the fear of saying the wrong thing.
Leanne ElliottWith experience in the NHS, corporate HR, and her own private practice, Dr Elaine knows how much of an impact good leadership can have on mental health at work. She is all about building real human connections that boost staff morale, retention, and business success. Dr Elaine Elaine, over to you.
Elaine SmithMy hot take is that leaders need support no matter how much they're paid, how senior the role is, and how much it looks like they've got it all together. I think from a young age, we are conditioned by others around us to think that adults have got it all together. So when we're kids, you know, so I've long reflected on this, but I think, you know, we think that teachers, for example, have it all together, as in, you know, they, they don't find life difficult, you know, they don't find the work stressful. I mean, I know there are moments where that doesn't look like that, but just generally, that's the sense I picked up. And then parents, obviously there's this balance of containment. Parents want to contain their emotions for the children, which is brilliant, but not showing vulnerability is really what I'm saying. So. That, you know, it brings me to that leaders are human. And I think that sometimes there's that attitude that, well, that's what they get paid the big bucks for. They can deal with that. If they're stressed, it doesn't matter as much. That's sometimes the feeling or the sense that I've got in different places in the past. And all the research and evidence points to the opposite.
Al ElliottYeah.
Elaine SmithActually, that it's completely win-win when we support our leaders and when we support them to show vulnerability in the workplace. I mean, obviously the work of Brené Brown's sort of huge in this about leading with vulnerability, and the statistics are really high. I mean, 71% of leaders say they want to leave work because of mental health difficulties. 54% feel isolated. I mean, the numbers are huge. Yeah. It's almost like the evidence is so compelling, yet there's still few leaders that are showing vulnerability in the workplace. And we also know that that builds connection with people. So if we think somebody has so got it all together that they are not feeling stressed or they don't have the same feelings or experiences as we do, they find it harder to connect to them. Because we like to see people's human parts, don't we? We like to see their imperfections. We like just to see that they're a real person, and that helps us to connect rather than this person who always looks immaculately put together and doesn't really show much fluctuation in emotion.
Leanne ElliottWhy do you think this is becoming more important? Is it the changing sentiment of generations joining, joining the workplace? Is it the rise of social media? We're more aware. Or as you say, we're just getting to a point of, of poor mental health that something has to be, has to be done.
Elaine SmithYeah, I think it's a combination of things, as you say, but I think it's from what I see. It's just what I see is that, I mean, I've had many, many individual clients come to me who are in senior leadership positions who just cannot, feel like they can't even talk about it at all at work. They might have disclosed it for the first time to me, or they might have told a manager they were off with something else. So I think there's very sort of localized problems. And there's more organizational problems. And as usual, there's societal issues. But I mean, yes, Gen Z's really spurring us on. Um, but definitely something that we need to, we need to address. Um, I mean, I was even thinking of like examples of leaders who, like, like big-time leaders like Jacinda Ardern. Whenever she— remember she said there was nothing left in the tank? Simone Biles as well, when she, when she, uh, she took time off for her mental health. And, and what I find surprising about that is that people find it so surprising because we don't see them as human beings. I know they're different examples because they're sort of still in the celebrity mix, but they're still people. So I'm always surprised at what we find surprising. Because I guess I don't see it like that. I just see that we're all people. Um, and these pedestals we put people on are just, just made up.
Leanne ElliottWhat I'm imagining people will be saying is, yeah, you say that we should have compassion for leaders and we should understand that they're human as well. But let's be honest, the CEO to employee salary pay gap has never been bigger. It's huge. We're seeing stories from people like Meta who are laying off thousands of employees and then increasing their executive bonuses. Do we, should we feel that sorry for these leaders who are making a lot of money while there's so many other people with equal mental health challenges, arguably more challenges because they don't have the finances and resources to access support?
Elaine SmithNo, I definitely think it changes how we view it. However, If we do work towards supporting these people, no matter what role they're in, if we can get to these people to open them up to thinking compassionately about themselves and others, maybe in time that'll close the pay gap. Maybe that's the way in, do you know? Because it's that we need to all be.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Elaine Smithhuman, that it's about relationships. If they knew more about the struggles each way, um, I think that can only be helpful. But of course, what you're saying, I mean, that's never going to be an overnight solution to that. And I get that people will be like, well, it's all right for them. It's all right for them. But sometimes it's not all right for them. They might have money, might have a lot of money, which is one thing. But other than that, we don't see the other struggles that they have.
Leanne ElliottI guess the other thing that I'd thinking, and given the current context we're in, um, what we're seeing from Trump and Musk and Zuckerberg about this talk of masculine energy needed back in leadership, how does that— how would you work with somebody like that who is, you know, that, that type of leader? I can't imagine. I wouldn't know where to start. Where do you start as a clinical psychologist, Elaine?
Elaine SmithUm, I've talked about this to people before, actually. I think, so there's some people we're not going to convert to this, to this stuff, if you like, to this openness about mental health and wellbeing. Um, I think you always start with education and we always start with building the relationship. So if it was somebody like that close, then that's all we can do. We can only try to connect and we can try to understand. where they're coming from. Because as we know as psychologists, all, all their beliefs have come from somewhere. So we could try to understand them as people. I think that's where we've got to go first, rather than trying to convert them to what we think is right, which isn't necessarily right. But obviously there are, you know, extreme examples there that you've given that people that, you know, could do a little bit of work in compassionate leadership.
Leanne ElliottReally powerful research there that Dr. Elaine shared. Um, and you might remember this from our episode, um, a little while back with, um, Connie Hadley, um, who's done a lot of research around, um, loneliness. But what Dr. Elaine mentioned there is that 54% of leaders are feeling isolated, 71% are considering leaving due to mental health issues. And that is quite staggering, actually, and often gets Overlooked in the workplace culture conversation. Leaders are not immune. 71%, more than 2/3, almost 3/4 are thinking of leaving due to mental health issues. This is, this is a problem that is, is— the shit's gonna hit the fan. I have no better way to say it, Al.
Al ElliottYou're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And I think that there, there is that pushback of going, yes, but you know, they're on a million pound a year, so Yes, they can put up with that, but that's not really what, what, what it should be, what people should be saying, because it's like saying that somehow if you earn more, you are less human. So I can see the argument, but it's not exactly, it's not exactly sort of as clear-cut as that. Like, we had John Amici, the amazing Professor John Amici. If you've not listened to that episode, go back around Christmas time, episode, say, 151, 155, full interview with John. Amazing. But he talks about people expecting leaders to be superhuman, and I think that's the big problem here, is that you might expect— again, any kind of a sports analogy— if you've got a leader of a team, then you will expect them to be superhuman, and very often they're not. And very often putting that pressure on someone that they can't make any mistakes and they can't have any sort of down days, you know, that's a big problem.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and it is interesting, isn't it, that psychologically we're kind of programmed in this way from childhood. It's like if you see a toddler fall over, then they're picked up like, you're okay, you're okay, don't worry about it, you're okay. And it's like, I understand, because you don't want to kind of create too much, too much drama around that situation. But equally, what you're teaching a child from a very young age is keep those emotions in. Don't let any emotions out. You're fine, you're fine, it's okay.
Elaine SmithYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd it kind of follows, follows us throughout adulthood. And I think particularly Maybe it's changing now, but particularly for women in the workplace, when I first joined work, the last thing you wanted to do was be emotional because that was weakness in a, in a what was, you know, a much more masculine workplace environment then. And I think it does create this cycle where leaders can't think that they can show vulnerability, their teams can't connect with them authentically. And the real shift now, we did some research about 12, 18 months ago in partnership with a client. And we actually found that overwhelmingly Gen Z and millennials are now looking for leaders in their life who are investing in their own mental health, as in the leader invests in their mental health as a leader, because they know that if that's the expectation that's set at that level, then them as an employee, my mental health is going to get invested in because there's a role model there. And, and I think it's that shift that we're seeing. And you can, you can kick and scream and demand that people get back into the office and call for more masculine workplaces and call people snowflakes and entitled. But the reality is, is if as things stand now, 75% of, of your senior people are considering leaving because they're on the verge of burnout, something has to change.
Al ElliottIf you want to learn more about Dr. Elaine Smith, then go to thinkresilience.co.uk. And if you want to know more about the course, Creating Compassionate Workplaces. All the details are on drelainesmith.com or check the show notes for a link that'll take you directly there. Okay, it's my favourite time of the week. It is time for the Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne is a Chartered Occupational Psychologist. I should be able to say that by now, who is an expert in workplace culture. I'm not sure what word I almost said there. Fun fact, Leanne has now answered almost 150 of your questions so far over the last few weeks.
Leanne ElliottAnd I've not got paid a penny, honestly.
Al ElliottWell, I think, um, I think our sponsorship deal would beg to differ.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah, sorry, HubSpot.
Al ElliottBut the last— love you, HubSpot. Please don't go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottLove you, love you.
Al ElliottDon't go anywhere. So the last 47— I'm trying to tell people some stats.
Elaine SmithSorry.
Al ElliottAlmost 150 questions over 47 episodes.
Leanne ElliottOh, does that mean the surgery is almost a year old?
Al ElliottYes, almost a year old. We're on question 1 for this week, or 142 if we're being specific. Are you ready for it, Leanne?
Elaine SmithYes.
Al ElliottOkay. From friend to boss, how to lead without losing your mates? This is a UK question, hence the word mate. That's what UK and Australians call friends or buddies if you're across the water.
Leanne ElliottAustralians say mate?
Al ElliottYeah, that's what I said. UK and Australia.
Elaine SmithOh, sorry.
Al ElliottYou're here to answer questions, not here to tell me on what, how I should be telling them. Okay. So this question says, I've recently been promoted to team lead, managing a group of 8 people, including 3 former coworkers.
Elaine SmithUh-oh.
Al Elliottwho I used to socialise with regularly. One of them keeps undermining me in meetings by making sarcastic comments when I delegate tasks or suggest process changes. I don't want to damage our friendship, but I'm worried the rest of the team is starting to pick up on this dynamic. Is there a way to establish my authority— we'll come back to that— without coming across as power hungry or destroying relationship value?
Elaine SmithNo.
Leanne ElliottNext question.
Al ElliottWell, there you go. I mean, let's be honest, this person seems to be approaching management slightly the wrong way. They need to listen to Thursday where we talk all about management and the first 30, 60, and 90 days in being a manager. A phenomenal episode, if I say so myself. But I think what they seem to do is like going, I'm the boss, why, you listen to me. When I stand up and tell you to do something, you go and do it. That seems to be a wrong approach, Leanne. What are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is. Yes, yes, it is. And there's not— you can't stamp your authority to gain respect from somebody. It just doesn't, doesn't really work like that. The, the equal challenge is I've been in this situation and I've been in organisations where roles have changed so much that at one point we're all peers, the next minute somebody's my manager, the next minute I'm their manager, the next minute it's— so I understand that the dynamic can be very, very tricky. And I think the reality is you're always going to have that one person who their thirst for power is greater. So they're not going to be happy that you're now their manager because They want that power, they want that position, or they want the opportunity, or they're not going to take orders from you because this time last week I was bossing you around type thing. And you just get people like that who have that ego that just want it that way, to their detriment a lot of the time. They'll put their faith in other people that will end up screwing them over much, much more. Um, there's just people like that. You're gonna have to just chalk it off as that's life. And the only thing you can do with somebody like that really is say, look, what can I do to make your job easier? What can I do to either give you more resources, take any barriers away, just to make this work? For example, are there certain tasks that are taking up far more of your time that I might be able to, to help you with? Are there certain things that in terms of processes that are bugging you that maybe I can speak to a senior leader about or a different team about? You're gonna still require their buy-in to share those things with you, but if you're constantly asking them, what can I do today? Or if they end up moaning about something, or if they say, oh, I didn't do that because I had to do this.
Elaine SmithYeah.
Leanne ElliottOkay, great. Well, this is a perfect example, person, about how you can offload something to me. Being a great manager is as much about delegation as it is about taking things off the hands of your people if they need to. Their time is better invested elsewhere. So, this has to be an ongoing conversation. You're not going to fix it overnight. Over time, things can get better and get more, um, build civility in that relationship. So, they're kind of like, they're mocking you and calling you out. That's, that's incivility, and that's not, that's not cool. It's not okay. And the only way to, to really do that in a way that is going to preserve this relationship long term is flipping it back on them. What can I do to make your job easier? If they continue to throw it back in your face and get even more and more toxic, then that's a performance management conversation that you, you manage further down the line. But first of all, that's how you want to approach it, and that's how you'd approach it with every single member of your team, not just the ones that you used to be a peer with or you used to be mates with. This is what great managers do. It's called empathic concern. What can I do to make your job easier today? And there's also always going to be boundaries within that. You can't do everything, and you don't want to take on too much that you're overwhelmed. But there's an opportunity here, particularly from somebody who's been in their role and been in that position, for you to use your knowledge of the role, use your knowledge of the team, To actually come up with some ideas as well and go, do you know what always used to bug me is this. This is what I'm thinking could be a potential solution. What do you think? Would that help the rest of the team? And really coming at it that way. That would be my advice equally. I've been there. Some people I brought round and were on my side and then lost their shiz when they, uh, when I got promoted and they had to get another manager in.
Elaine SmithYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd then there are the people that I never won around, and it's just the way, it's just the way it is. But ultimately, if you know you're doing everything you can to support the performance, productivity, and wellbeing of your team, that's, that's all you can judge yourself by as a manager. People will always have their opinions.
Al ElliottBut I think that a lot of people think, oh, I'm now your boss, so you work for me. In actual fact, the greatest managers in the world kind of work for their team, and they sort of, they invert the, The pyramid, the traditional corporate pyramid. But more of that on Thursday. I know I keep trailing Thursday's episode. It's going to be a good one. I really, really liked it. Okay, so question number 2, the unlimited holiday trap. Perfect on paper, riots in reality. Our company— I love the headline. I actually asked ChatGPT, no, actually Claude for some help with some headline for that one, and it came up with this. I thought it was really good. Our company recently implemented an unlimited holiday policy that sounded great on paper, but has created chaos in practice. Some team members are barely taking any time off because there's no clear guidance on what is acceptable, while others are disappearing for weeks with minimal notice. As a middle manager, I'm caught between senior leadership who think the policy is progressive and my team who are increasingly resentful of the inconsistency. Oh, I like this idea of inconsistency. How do I navigate this without undermining company policy or burning out my team? Lee, there's a lot to unpick here.
Leanne ElliottWe don't like ambiguity. We don't like uncertainty. We don't know how to deal with it, how to react to it. It's just not, it's not great. The intention behind an unlimited holiday policy is really, I get it, I get it. But again, it's one of those things that it's not really an unlimited holiday policy, is it? Because if it was really an unlimited holiday policy, I'm just, I'm on holiday all the time.
Elaine SmithWhat are you going to do about it?
Leanne ElliottIt's not, is it? Do you know, we were talking to Ed Sweet-Williams about this. Do you remember in his episode, Alan and Candy Kittens? At the time, I don't know what it is now, but at the time had an unlimited holiday policy, and they were struggling with the same challenges that some people were taking— more their concern was some people were not taking enough holidays, were not building in that rest and recovery time. The fact is, we have a statutory number of holidays in the UK for a reason, to make sure people get that rest and recovery time. That is, that not just the simple thing as part of your policy? You have to take a minimum of X number of holidays, or actually rethinking the whole policy and kind of going, do we want unlimited holiday or we just want to call it 30? Would that everyone be happy with that? It's hard if you're a middle manager because you've, you've not put in this policy by the sound of it, and you've probably not got the, the power to overrule it. But I think you're well within your rights and really responsibilities as a middle manager to go to your senior leaders and say, these are the problems I'm seeing. This is the impact it's having. This, I've spoken to my team and we actually think that this would be a better solution. And ultimately, the people that are maybe taking more holidays, well, as long as they're still hitting all their performance measures, as long as they're still delivering the work they need to in the time that they've got available to them, that, that is what the policy allows. So, you know, it's talking to people about why aren't they taking their holidays? Is it because they don't feel able to deliver the outcomes in the time that they've got, that it does disturb their productivity, that they just feel bad about taking a holiday?
Elaine SmithMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWe often see that as well with people who, who are new to the business, might be reluctant to take holiday. It's as much about having those one-to-one conversations with your team to understand why people feel comfortable to take more leave and why they're not. And then taking that to your managers and saying, I know this policy was put in with the best of intentions. I think it needs more clarity. I think it needs more guidelines, or I think actually it needs to be scrapped and replaced by this. It's totally understandable. It's very common from what I've heard with other organisations that have an unlimited holiday policy. This is just a bit of snagging. It's a bit nitpicking. It's about figuring out what's working, what's not, and how to make it better. And I think that's, as we've just said, that's management 101, isn't it? What's working, what's not, and how to make it better.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. And you've got your own team, so you could just speak to your team and go, right, well, look, it's in theory unlimited, but let's all agree that we're going to take a certain number of days in, in this team. This is how we do things around here. Um, and just agree it. Um, And I think, I think Leanne's right. It's the problem with unlimited is that there's always gonna be someone with the biggest cigar. There's always gonna be someone who's going to take more time off. And then that just puts— we talked about last week, um, the guy who came in when I worked in an office, the guy who came in, did 2 hours and more sales in 2 hours than the rest of it. We, you'd have thought that would rising tide. Didn't. It just made us feel really resentful. So yeah, there's, there's a, there's 2 parts to this. There's how do we manage unlimited, um, holiday time? And then there's All right, if that's the expectation, if that's like the barrier, that's what the company has said, then potentially you can implement a different policy in your team and just keep it quiet. I'm not saying go out there and say, this is not the policy, this is now company policy, but it's your team, you know, just make it how you want to. Okay, Leigh, question number 3, the HR battleground. HR professional caught in the middle of a company war.
Leanne ElliottFight!
Al ElliottFight, fight, fight. So my workplace has become extremely polarized over a recent company decision to eliminate flexible working hours for certain departments.
Elaine SmithMm-hmm.
Al ElliottThis is from— is this from Google? I don't think it's from Google. As an HR director, I'm receiving heated emails from both sides, some claiming it's destroying work-life balance, others saying the previous system was inefficient. My inbox has become a battleground, and people are expecting me to either champion their cause or explain the company reasoning which I wasn't involved in. I'm caught between genuinely trying to help my coworkers, uh, doing my HR bit, and then leadership insisting that I'm the one who roll out these changes, which is obviously the transactional part of the leadership. What the heck am I supposed to do for the best? Should I even pick a side?
Leanne ElliottNo, don't pick a side. It's not, it's not your job to really pick a side, is it? It's your job to try and, try and, try and Implement these things in the best way that, that you can. And this is something I hear a lot from HR partners actually, is that kind of rock and a hard place, um, type scenario. There are some people that will say, well, you know, as an HR leader, you're there to— you work for the business, not for the employee. You're there to make the policies happen. There are other leaders that I might be more inclined to camp with who would say, well, actually, it's my job to To, yes, execute these policies, but in a way that actually serves the workforce, because I know if we do that, it's going to ultimately be better for the business. This person didn't say where they are, did they?
Al ElliottNo. Looking at the language, I think it is an American spelling of things. I'm going to guess America.
Leanne ElliottI mean, if you are in the UK or Europe, your rights are different in terms of flexible working. That was built into policy over the last— government policy over the last 12 months or so. So, you do have a legal right to request flexible working if you have reasonable reasons and need those adjustments. If you're in the US, well, I don't— sorry, I'm not saying I agree with the work culture in the United States of America, but it's a very different beast, and flexible working and human-led initiatives don't seem to necessarily be prioritised in these times. What do you do? I guess really you've got to stick to the The rulebook in terms of executing this policy. That's what you're employed to do in an organisation like this. That's not to say you can't speak to people and empathise. It's not to say that you can't maybe think about some out-the-box ways that you could potentially offer flexible working without having to offer flexible working. And really, that's going to be talking to your people. And I guess it's how strict this flexible working is, isn't it? Like, if it's a It might be, I don't know, for example, is there a way to go, right, we're still not gonna— everyone's still gonna come into the office because apparently that's a thing. Everyone's still gonna do 60 hours a week because apparently that's a thing as well. But half people are gonna work 7 till 4, and then some people are gonna work 9 till 7. And just seeing if there's any patterns of these frustrated employees coming to you in terms of what they're having to sacrifice or what— how their life is made more difficult by this flexibility going away. It could be caring responsibilities. It could be something around disability. It could be something around family commitments. It could be around travel. It could be around the costs of travel at peak time. There's lots of different things that people could be kicking off about in terms of flexibility. Once you get past the fact that people are just kicking off because it's a change that they didn't want, and they're still going through that psychological transition, don't forget, change is external. It's done to us very quickly. Psychological transition we need to get through to accept that change is much slower. And with that comes a lot of anger, a lot of resentment, a lot of frustration. That's just people working through that psychological transition. Equally, during that time, there might be some themes and patterns you can pick up on that actually, if you could maybe just tweak this new policy a little bit, it might— for the majority of people, might make a difference. Collect your data, be curious, have the conversations. Ultimately, it's your job to execute workplace policies as an HR practitioner. And if you're working for an organisation where it is being mandated, that they're not particularly interested in that consultation before the change is made, it's not great, but it is what it is. And maybe, maybe start brushing up your CV as well. Fundamentally, you feel this is an incorrect way to manage HR and people and culture in an organisation, then.
Elaine SmithYeah.
Leanne ElliottMaybe it's a point of reflection for you as well in terms of finding a better fit for you to be an HR partner leader somewhere else.
Al ElliottI love how Leanne's cut to the real chase of this. It's like, it's not that it's a tough decision, it's more that it's a change that has been done to people. It doesn't sound like there's much consultation. If there was, it'd be worse because they've ignored it and people are just unhappy with it. There is a great episode with a lady called Hillary Scarlett, Dr. Hilary Scarlett. I think she's a neuroscientist and she talks about the neuroscience of change and what happens when you actually implement change. It's definitely worth spinning back and having a listen to, I wanna say somewhere around about 160, 170, something like that. But just search for Hilary Scarlett, you'll find it. But yeah, good luck with it because this sounds like a tough thing that you can't really go, oh, do this and you fixed it. But as Leanne said, your job is likely to implement. the policies that the leaders come up with. You're very nice by taking on all the complaints about it and trying to resolve them, but a great leader will say, I totally understand what you're saying. Let me go and look at the fine print of this and see if there is a way that we can actually do what you want to do in the framework that has been handed down from the gods above. And that's a really, you know, really nice and a good way to be a great manager. Leanne, anything to add before we say goodbye?
Leanne ElliottNothing to add.
Al ElliottOkay, well, coming up this Thursday, we have an amazing interview with a guy— I've teased it already— who's got millions and perhaps hundreds of millions of views across social media. He's an expert on management. So if you've ever wanted to be a manager, or you're about to become a manager, or you want to know what great managers look like, then this episode takes you through the first 90 days of being a new manager. All the stuff you should do, all the stuff you should not do, What mistakes people make and what great managers do. It is genuinely a great one. I think you're going to absolutely love it. And even if you are an existing manager, there's loads in there for you. I think you're going to love it.
Leanne ElliottYep. So we'll be back on Thursday with that. We'll be back next Tuesday as we always are, quite predictably, with another episode of This Week in Work. If you have a question that you'd like me to answer, a news article you'd like us to rant about, or a hot take, get in touch. All of our details are in the show notes. Find us on LinkedIn. Maybe write a little post about something you've enjoyed. Maybe say to Dr. Elaine, that was a great hot take. I love it. And I would, I really want to come on your course. All the links for that are in the show notes as well. Like, subscribe wherever you find or listen to your podcasts. Is that it? Any more admin?
Al ElliottI don't think so. Just a big hello to my mum who grew up in East Lothian.
Leanne ElliottHi, Pa.
Al ElliottSo if you're listening to this, Mum, then you'll recognise the accent from Dr. Elaine. Dr. Elaine. Yes, I think that's everything. We will see you next week. And as ever, if there's any— if you've got good things to say, put them publicly. If you've got bad things to say, maybe just send us an email. See you soon. Bye-bye.
Elaine SmithBye.