Episode 182 · 25 March 2025 · 49:55
My boss wants to spy on me, London’s hiring crisis and why holidays last longer than you think. PLUS! Is the five-day week dead? with Grace Tallon
Featuring Grace Tallon
My boss wants to spy on me, London’s hiring crisis and why holidays last longer than you think. PLUS! Is the five-day week dead? with Grace Tallon
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Intro and episode preview
London's hiring crisis and remote work
news roundup#hiring#remote-work#news
Bossware and video surveillance at home
news roundup#bossware#surveillance#remote-work#privacy
Hot Take: Is the five-day week dead? with Grace Tallon
Workplace Surgery: Am I mentoring my replacement?
workplace surgery#mentoring#career#workplace-advice
Workplace Surgery: Personality tests ruining teams
workplace surgery#personality-tests#hr#team-dynamics
Workplace Surgery: The calendar bully
workplace surgery#calendar-bullying#productivity#time-management
Show notes
Why the Five-Day Week Is History — with Grace Tallon
Guest: Grace Tallon — co-founder of the Work Time Reduction Centre, champion of the shorter working week.
The five-day workweek has been with us for a century. Grace Tallon thinks it's time to retire it — and she's not just talking about a perk.
Grace joins Al and Leanne to make the case that cutting working hours isn't a nice-to-have — it's vital for business success, productivity, and mental health. She shares why genuine work-time reduction is different from the gimmicks, what the research from Iceland and Sweden actually shows, and why giving people time to think might be the most transformational thing a business can do.
Plus, in the headlines: the Australian firm facing backlash over "bossware" video surveillance, London's hiring crisis and the remote work blame game, and the good news that holiday benefits last far longer than you think.
And in the Weekly Workplace Surgery: a listener who fears they're training their own replacement, personality tests being used to assign projects by colour chart, and a developer fighting a "calendar bully" who keeps hijacking their deep work time.
🔥 Headlines Covered
1. London firms can't hire staff — is remote work to blame? Nearly half of London businesses are struggling to recruit, and many are pointing the finger at remote work expectations. Al and Leanne unpack why blaming flexibility misses the point — and why the answer might be simpler than it looks. Source →
2. Would you let your employer monitor you at home? Australian financial firm AMP faced backlash over claims employees were pressured to accept contracts allowing constant video surveillance — even at home. Al and Leanne break down why "bossware" is a trust disaster waiting to happen. Source →
3. Good news: your holiday benefits last longer than you think Research in the Journal of Applied Psychology shows the wellbeing benefits of a holiday can last up to six weeks. Physical activity and social time are the biggest winners. Science says: take the break. Source →
🔥 Hot Take: Why the Five-Day Workweek Is History
Grace Tallon, co-founder of the Work Time Reduction Centre, joins the show to explain why the traditional five-day workweek is no longer fit for purpose. She shares:
- Why genuine work-time reduction is different from the gimmicks and half-measures
- What the evidence from Iceland and Sweden really shows
- Why shorter weeks give people something money can't buy: time to think
- Practical advice for business owners who want to make the leap
- Why the four-day week and "work-time reduction" aren't quite the same thing
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- "Am I mentoring my replacement?" — A listener fears they're training someone overqualified who may take their job. Paranoia or wisdom?
- "Personality tests are ruining my team!" — Managers are forced to assign projects based on personality colour charts rather than skills. Leanne has thoughts. Strong ones.
- "My productivity's hijacked by a calendar bully!" — A developer struggles to protect their deep work sessions from a colleague who repeatedly schedules conflicting meetings.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
More From Grace Tallon
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/grace-tallon
- Work Time Reduction: worktimereduction.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottOn this episode, would you let your employer monitor you on camera while working from home? One Australian company has been accused of pressuring staff to agree to video surveillance in their own homes.
Leanne ElliottAnd what if your company said you couldn't work from home even though your job could easily be done remotely? On the week we mark 5 years since the start of the COVID pandemic, new research shows nearly half of businesses are struggling to hire, and many are blaming candidates' refusal to return to the office. Is this the wake-up call employers need to rethink outdated ways of working, or have employee expectations simply gone too far? And speaking of outdated models, our hot take guest Grace Tallon says the 5-day work week is no longer fit for purpose.
Al ElliottAnd how would you feel being left out of a project not because of your skills but because you're a blue? Or a red? One listener says personality testing has taken over their workplace, with managers now assigning tasks based on colour profiles instead of competence. Find out when I ask Leanne in our world-famous weekly workplace surgery.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you of course by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne and I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures. Let's dive straight into this week's episode right after a quick message from our sponsors.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Okay, welcome back. Right now it's Leanne's favourite time of the week.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. It's time for the news roundabout. Cue that jingle.
Al ElliottPressing play. What have you seen this week, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottLondon firms are struggling to recruit staff as people want to work from home. Here's a crazy idea, let them work from home. Anyway, according to a new report from City AM, London businesses are struggling to hire, and remote work expectations are a big part of the story. So the survey run by Business London looked at 1,000 companies across the capital. More than 4 in 5 said they currently have vacancies. And nearly half admitted they're finding it difficult to recruit. A quarter said there's just a lack of interest in the roles, while 45% blamed it on applicants wanting to work from home. Blame, lovely word there. Uh, it's not just about hiring though, apparently. Companies are also worried about the skills gap. Over a third said their staff lack the necessary skills for the job. English and basic maths were both flagged, particularly in sectors like finance and communications. where open roles are piling up. Despite that, many businesses are trying to turn the tide. 8 in 10 say they're planning to invest more in training. The other 2, what are you doing? And with the spring statement around the corner, there is pressure on the government to take some bold steps on education and upskilling. But here's what's interesting: while some firms seem to, seem to think that remote work is part of the problem, research continues to tell a different story. We've all heard of Nick Bloom, Stanford economist, who who's been studying remote and hybrid work for years. He has consistently found that working from home has no negative effect on performance, and in some cases it actually boosts productivity, especially for roles that need deep focus. So once again, we've got a bit of a disconnect here. People want flexibility, the data says performance holds up, but many companies are still resisting the shift. So what is really going on, Al? Why are businesses so out of step with what workers want? Or is it a case expectations are just changing faster than they can keep up?
Al ElliottThoughts? This, I, I'm almost getting bored with this. We talk about it almost like at least once every 2 weeks, once every 3 weeks. This whole idea of bosses saying, I don't want people to work from home. I don't get it. I mean, do, do bosses, do all these people who say you've gotta work in the office, do they enjoy coming into the office? Is it like a little power trip or something for them?
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottIt's very, very strange. I think this deep focus, and incidentally, we've got a, we've got a letter very similar about this, uh, coming up in the surgery. I think you're gonna like it. Uh, but this idea of deep focus, I can see the pros and cons of working from home for deep focus. If you've got somewhere at home you can really get into something, then 100%, I think working from home is going to be great for you because deep focus, 90 minutes of deep focus is gonna produce more work than 8 hours of interrupted focus, in my opinion. There's no science that I've got to back that up. I'm sure there is somewhere. Uh, probably Leanne's probably got some. Grace, our owner of Hot Take, has probably got some. But this whole idea of, of deep work is so, so, so important. However, If you work in, if your home life is a little bit hectic, perhaps you've got dogs, like you might be able to hear our dogs at the moment. You've got dogs. Um, I don't know, you've got parcels coming backwards and forwards. Uh, you've got children who are at home. Perhaps you're looking after someone. I can see how, in theory, going into an office and shutting a door would be more productive. However, in the office, are you not just being tapped on the shoulder asking if you want a brew? Are you not getting like pinged with emails? Are you not someone coming across and going, hey, Geoff, can you just do me a favour? Can you just help me out with this thing? Yeah. So I don't know, unless we just like go and find a converted monastery and go, right, that's where the office is gonna be, where nobody can speak. I don't know. I don't, I can see the pros and cons, but really, as far as I'm concerned, I want to work from home. Well, obviously we do because, you know, we do work from home ourselves, but that's my thoughts on it. But I can see the pros and cons.
Leanne ElliottOf course there are pros and cons to everything, and I think this is what is overwhelmingly the sentiment of, of the, probably the decade from employees. And it's been building far before the pandemic, and the pandemic just accelerated the change. People want more flexibility. People want ways to integrate their life and work because there isn't that clean distinction anymore. Work follows us home because we have the technology, we have the pinging emails, we have our manager messaging on WhatsApp sometimes. There's all sorts of boundaries that have been completely blurred. So all people are asking for is, if I have to bring my work home with me anyway, can I also make this scenario work for me and actually, you know, blur some of my other boundaries that just make it easier? for me to, to have work and life integrated in the way the modern world insists that it is. I mean, I'd, I'd be, I'd be, I'd be interested if these companies who are looking to hire, if a candidate went, fine, I'll work from the office, um, 5 days a week, no problem, but I will not accept any phone calls after 5:30, 6 o'clock. I will not have emails on my phone. If you insist I have a work phone, it will stay in the office. Until I return at half past 8 the next morning. I'm just wondering, with those hard boundaries back in, in play, whether organisations would be more inclined to, to allow working from home. I agree, Al, I'm getting bored. The reason we keep talking about it is that I would hate for anyone to misunderstand that this is just good for business. It isn't good for business, it isn't good for people, and it's not even true. The data doesn't back it up. Of course, organisations will find their own ways of working, as will people. And this is what we're seeing and why organisations are currently finding it harder to hire. Because if you won't make this flexibility just a thing, then I'll have to set harder boundaries for me in terms of the work that I'm interested in. So it's no great surprise and really just people trying to get some sense of control.
Al ElliottYeah, I think it's a shame. And like you said, the answer seems obvious. We have not got enough people applying for the jobs. The people aren't interested in the role. Well, you probably can't do too much to change the role, but one simple thing is just going, well, you can work where you want. Well, not actually where you want, 'cause that's a different conversation, but you can work from home.
Leanne ElliottYeah, but I mean, talking of working from home, I think you've seen something interesting this week, haven't you?
Al ElliottYes, it's all to do with a new word that I've seen. It's called bosswear. Have you ever, ever heard of that?
Leanne ElliottBosswear? No, but like the scouser in me wants to be like, oh, it's boss, it's boss. Like, that outfit looks great.
Al ElliottHe didn't know that Leanne could do a Scouse accent.
Leanne ElliottI have skills.
Al ElliottYou do, you do. No, bossware is basically like software, but bossware, that's the way it's talking, and it is about monitoring. And so all of this employee monitoring stuff comes under this term of bossware. Now, what was interesting is that the Financial Sector Union has claimed that a company called AMP, which is an Australian company—
Leanne ElliottI know of AMP. I'm quite familiar with AMP.
Al ElliottI, I dunno what they do. What do they do?
Leanne ElliottOh, I don't know. I'm just telling him.
Al ElliottIs it like one of these big, like KPMG? You go, I've heard of them, but I don't really know what they do.
Leanne ElliottJacobs. Jacobs.
Al ElliottYes. Is it right? Okay. Got it. Anyway, so what the, the point was that they were giving employees just one week to sign new contracts. And what was in this contract, just buried at the bottom, was things like permitting constant video monitoring, which would be potentially in their homes if they're working from home. About 2,500 people reportedly received these contracts and they had 7 days to sign. Otherwise something bad would happen. And I can't remember what it said in the article, whether it was they were gonna be put on performance improvement plans or something like that. But basically it's 7 days to sign. They also, what AMP were doing was also giving people $1,000. I think this is some Australian dollars, $1,000 to sign quickly. So it's all a bit like, mm-hmm. Now of course, AMP have strongly denied these claims. They've said officially, AMP is not and will not conduct camera surveillance on employees when they work from home. The problem is the contract, the new contract says that they can, in theory, of course. Apparently, they were reviewed by an external law firm to ensure that they align with industry practices. Not sure they did a great job there. Other controversial contract elements included a clause allowing AMP to require medical examinations by their own doctors. Conversion to annualised salaries, potentially eliminating overtime and penalty rates, and requirements to work additional hours without extra pay. Now, the other thing was that the contract potentially allowed sharing employee personal data with third parties. This all kind of undermines this right to disconnect by requiring employees to respond to messages outside of work hours. Now, the FSU, this is the Financial Support Union, claims employees were offered this $1,000 share plan grant and incentive to sign. They of course advise employees not to sign the contracts. There is an ongoing dispute, as you'd imagine. Now, AMP are telling you, no, they're not doing any of these things, but the contract is literally on paper. Leah, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottFools.
Al ElliottThey are fools. They really are. They've not thought this through, have they?
Leanne ElliottWell, somebody's thought it through, but really badly and without understanding there's actually a human being on the other side of that contract. It's so weird, isn't it, what's going on in the world at the minute? It's like if somebody at this point, like, pulled me out and was like, This is the Matrix and it's glitching. I'd be like, oh, thank God. That makes sense. That makes more sense than what's going on.
Al ElliottJamie Dimon just turns up and goes, bro, bro, it's a prank. It's a prank.
Leanne ElliottBeen punked.
Al ElliottMan, have I.
Leanne ElliottImagine that. If somebody— I'd be fuming if somebody told me that since the pandemic we've all just been pranked. Strongly worded letter.
Al ElliottTell you what, the pandemic needs You would be writing it too. Yes.
Leanne ElliottWhat was the dude's name in Matrix?
Al ElliottNeo.
Leanne ElliottNeo.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottDear Neo. What are we talking about? Surveillance from home. Don't be ridiculous. Don't be ridiculous. Do I even need to mention this could be a massive safeguarding issue in terms of people's kids? You know, you can't just lock them out. They might just come running in and then you've got kids on film and then It's weird. It's odd. The signing bonus is very strange as well. I don't understand the purpose of it. Are you struggling, AMP? Do you not have enough money? Is performance bad? How are they doing in the ASX, Al? Is it not going so well?
Al ElliottWhat's the ASX?
Leanne ElliottThe Australian Stock Exchange.
Al ElliottThey call it— oh, right. Okay. So not the ASE, the ASX, because they're cool and Australian.
Grace TallonYes.
Al ElliottDo you know what? I didn't look into that. I'd imagine— I don't know. Do you know, I was about to say I imagine, but I don't know.
Leanne ElliottDo you know what? I think that sums up this entire story. I don't know what the purpose was. It seems really silly, really short-sighted. I'm sure everybody who works for AMP right now is looking for a new job potentially. It's all a bit strange. And I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed. Yeah, I'm really disappointed. Yeah, another large organisation that is just Just forgetting that actual human people work for your business and make you money. Basic human psychology, you know? This isn't even just like— this is basic, basic stuff. Try harder, AMP.
Al ElliottYeah, and I think one of the major problems with this is that a lawyer— it sounds like a lawyer drew it up. And I'm sorry, Jeremy, if you're listening. I know you're a lawyer or an ex-lawyer. But the problem with lawyers, I think, is they look at all the possible downsides and they mitigate against them. And it sounds to me that's what's happened. Is that someone with a law background has gone, well, let's just cover everything off on this new agreement, this new contract, so that no matter what happens, we've always got something in the contract. We go back and go, oh, look, now you shouldn't have done this. And of course then it just sounds really scary. Like any, any big long contract's a bit scary. I dunno about you, I've never read a single one of those contracts. You know, when you press I agree.
Leanne ElliottI've read one cover to cover recently.
Al ElliottWell, we won't go into that. We won't go into that. But yeah, it seems really short-sighted, really foolish. Um, and just, just, just how would you like it? Do you know what I mean? The person who came up with this, how would you like it if you're at home, like you said, and, and you're just working away and you, someone's videoing you and videoing you like scratching your bum or something? You know, it's not, not great. Anyway.
Leanne ElliottIf you, if anyone out there is watching this and works for AMP and either thinks, you know, wants to add to the story or correct us, leave a comment, get in touch. I'm always interested to know what actually is happening on Yes, and that has happened a couple of times.
Al ElliottOne particular person who we, who declined to come on the, on the podcast. I don't know why. That doesn't show that they were particularly like 100% behind their ideas. But anyway.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah, that.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah.
Al ElliottDon't say.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottDon't say. We can't say. You'll know who they are. Anyway, Leanne, what else have you seen this week, love?
Leanne ElliottSomething brighter, something sunnier, Al.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottSome good news for you and for anyone daydreaming about their next holiday break. I know I am. Holiday benefits last longer than we thought, according to science.
Al ElliottScience says it officially. We need, we need a, like, one of those stamps that goes, science approved.
Leanne ElliottScience approved. Yeah, holidays, they don't just feel really good in the moment. Apparently the benefits stick around for a lot longer than we used to think. So this is another piece of research that's been reported on by the BPS this month in the Research Digest. Um, they're on fire right now.
Al ElliottThe BPS?
Leanne ElliottUm, the Research Digest team.
Al ElliottOh nice.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, big shout out to you guys.
Leanne ElliottBig shout out, keep it coming. So they reported on this new research published in the Journal of Applied Psychology, looked at data from 32 studies tracking people's well-being before, during, and after taking time off. And the biggest takeaway, while we do eventually slide back into our usual levels of stress and fatigue, that post-holiday glow can last up to 6 weeks, which is much longer than previous research has suggested. So the study measured everything from stress and burnout to sleep quality, energy levels, general happiness. And yeah, well-being did dip once people returned to work. Of course you get that little slump, but it stayed higher than it was before the holiday, even 3 weeks after they were back. Uh, the type of break mattered too. So people who mix time away with time at home saw the biggest benefit overall. But interestingly, those who traveled experienced a lower decline in wellbeing afterwards. So the aftereffects lasted longer, even if the peak wasn't as sharp. Longer holidays gave a bigger boost during the break, but that came with a catch— a steeper drop once people returned to work. So it's like the higher you go, the further you have to fall. What made the big difference, though, was how people spent their time off. The best outcomes came from people who completely detached from work. Did we hear this, Al? Mentally checking out, uh, made a huge difference. So delete that app from your phone, don't look at working emails, and if you're a manager, don't even think about messaging that person.
Al ElliottYes.
Grace TallonNo.
Al ElliottYou've been told.
Leanne ElliottNo. Um, what else did they find? Um, physical activity was a major winner as well, followed by social time. So skiing holidays with friends are going to be beautiful for our well-being. On the other hand, more passive activities like just Lounging around didn't really have a significant effect either way. Learning new skills on holiday, maybe practising your Spanish, that turns out it didn't have an impact either.
Grace TallonNo.
Leanne ElliottSo for employees, what is clear is that we need to encourage people to take proper time off, making sure that they don't feel guilty for doing it, that it isn't just a nice thing to have, it's actually a really smart idea. It's good for your your people is good for your business. It leads to happier, healthier staff who are likely to perform better when they get back. And for employees listening, if you want to actually feel the benefit of your time off, the key is to properly unplug and get moving. Please delete that Gmail. It always surprised me when I work with, um, business owners who are concerned about well-being and burnout and energy levels dipping, and then we'll look and only about 70% of the staff have taken all their annual leave over the past 2 years. It's like, well, Might help. And now science says it really does.
Al ElliottScience approved. There you go. Right after this very, very short break, we're gonna be back with this week's hot take, which is from Grace Tallon from the Work Time Reduction Centre, and she's gonna be giving her professional views on the 4-day work week. It's probably not what you think. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals. Seamless.
Al ElliottSeamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Every week we ask a workplace expert for their hot take on the world of work, something that might challenge how we think about our jobs, our businesses, or our workplace culture.
Al ElliottAnd today's hot take is a bit of a spicy one. We're joined by Grace Tallon, who believes that the 5-day work week is fundamentally broken and no longer fit for purpose in today's world.
Leanne ElliottWhat I find really interesting about Grace's perspective is that she's not just advocating for fewer working hours as a nice employee perk. She's making the case that reducing work time is absolutely critical for business success, for productivity, and for mental wellbeing.
Al ElliottAnd this, of course, comes at an interesting time, doesn't it? Because remote work debates are still raging, like on this podcast, and companies are experimenting with 4-day work weeks. Grace actually calls rethinking work hours the most important thing we do as a generation.
Leanne ElliottLet's hear from Grace about why she believes The 5-day workweek belongs in the history books, not in our future.
Al ElliottJust a quick note, Grace's audio, for some reason there was a slight technical issue. We tried to clean it up as best we can. It's fine, it's just a little bit buzzy, that's all.
Grace TallonMy name is Grace Tallon and I am the co-founder of an organization called Work Time Reduction. And what we do is we support companies to do what it says on the tin, reduce their working time.
Leanne ElliottWhat's your hot take on work time reduction?
Grace TallonI sometimes read people saying, you know, popular influencers on the likes of LinkedIn saying, you know, if your workplace doesn't work for you, go out and do it on your own. And as an entrepreneur, I can say that that's bloody hard. And instead of saying to people, if your workplace doesn't work for you, why as a society are we not saying that if you run a business, it is incumbent on you to make that workplace a place where everybody is able to bring their best selves to work, to thrive using wellbeing and productivity as complementary forces and sharing those productivity gains with employees. So I suppose that would be my hot take, would be that it is incumbent on people who run a business to make their workplace one that allows all of their employees to thrive and one that allows sort of, you know, parents and women in particular to stay in the workforce and to not look at moving to part-time and reducing their salary, to not being felt like they have to keep apologizing for themselves or not being given opportunity for putting themselves forward for leadership roles. I mean, we want to see more women in leadership roles, but what does it take to get them there? It's not enough to say lean in. Lean into burnout? Lean into an environment that's just set up to kick me straight back out again? We want to be asking women to lean into environments that are set up to give them the best chance. And, you know, we talk too much about productivity. Let's talk a little bit more about joy and happiness. If someone is really happy, they're going to do really good work for you. Those people who are being forced to go back to JPMorgan after, you know, setting themselves up for the last number of years in a situation that they might have been able to balance their lives a little bit better, do you think that they're going to be happy going back into that office with these wonderful perks that they are talking about? They're probably not. Um, and I think that people like Jamie Dimon are going to see that these people are not going to be performing as well, because really, if you're not happy and you're not healthy, then that's going to affect, um, your performance.
Leanne ElliottI think there was maybe a time, and maybe, maybe it still is the time, where organizations like JP Morgan or a Deloitte or a KPMG, or, you know, a big corporate organization that, that means something to have on your CV if you've worked for an organization like this, that, that prestige and that Um, that level of experience, does that still carry as much weight, or are people going to walk away from organizations like JPMorgan in favor of maybe less well-known organizations where they can actually strike a better work-life balance?
Grace TallonI think we have to be honest about where society is today, and I think today we are in a place where, of course, those things still have weight. But what I'm hoping is that all of these really super talented people who have the option to walk away will take a step back, slow down a little bit, and look at their lives and think about what they want in the future for themselves. I mean, so many people go straight out of college, brilliant, wonderfully talented people, straight out of college into a job that they're working sometimes 70 hours a week. They haven't got time to spend with their loved ones, to think about their hobbies. And very sadly, I hear quite often people say, well, look, I actually don't have time for hobbies, and I used to do this in school, but I haven't really had time to continue it, and now I don't really know. And, you know, that is the joy of life, is doing things that you love. And you might love your job, but there are so many other parts to life that will bring you joy and bring you happiness. And all of a sudden, it's over and you're retiring. So, my hope is that people will start to step back from the big organizations and look to You know, more inclusive organizations that are doing super, super work that need this talent. And then we're going to see things turn. We're going to see changes, or indeed that, you know, the JP Morgans will realize that they're bringing these people back for control, because that's what it is at the end of the day. It's really easy for a manager to look at you at your desk and see you sitting there and then say, okay, well, they're sitting at their desks, they must be doing work. So that's lazy management. And I think very quickly people are going to start to see in those organizations that, you know, people don't have any, any enthusiasm. You have to give people a reason to want to produce for you. And people want autonomy. They want to feel like they're in control of their work. And this is not going to make them feel like they're in control.
Leanne ElliottFor any business owner that's thinking, I'd love the sound of a 4-day work week, I'd love to only do a 4-day work week, but what do I do with my clients? What if my revenue goes down? How do I structure it with my people? What are some of maybe the myths or misunderstandings that people might have about shifting to a 4-day workweek that you can help clear up for us?
Grace TallonThe first thing I'd say is that it is not an easy thing to do. So while the premise is not rocket science, we've produced a paper, The Science of Work-Time Reduction, and there is science, of course, behind all of this, but it isn't rocket science in terms of, you know, we know it can be done. And people are proving that it can be done, but that doesn't mean that it's easy. Of course, the beginning, this lovely shiny new thing, but how do you sustain those productivity gains? So, the very first thing that I always discuss is that it's going to be a big lift because these are deeply ingrained habits that we've all formed. I mean, we're all checking our emails when we shouldn't be. It's just the way of work, and we've all sort of bought into that. So, the first thing you need to do is dislodge all of those and sort of unlearn the things that we've been so used to doing. So, that isn't an easy thing. And then you've got to learn these new habits. So, you're not talking about doing the same work the same way in less time. You're talking about fundamentally redesigning how you do your work. But the payoff you get is unlike any other change management project that you're ever even considering to bring to the table because what you are giving in return is so transformational to people's lives that the investment is huge, that they actually want to do all of these things. Because, for example, if you weren't giving them something in return and asking them for this big lift, they're thinking, what am I going to get in return? Probably more work. So, you know, are they going to be as invested? But here you're actually giving them something back that no money can buy. And we see that in a lot of the research that we do, that people favor more time over pay increases. And for the first time, that's kind of the biggest benefit people are looking for is time back. And I talk to so many people who have brilliant lives outside of work and beautiful family and, you know, are really looking forward to going home. But at the end of the day, they're closing down their laptop and they're just feeling absolutely drained, and they have nothing left to give to the rest of their lives. They're going home and just the usual, make the dinner. So, so much of this is not necessarily just about, you know, getting yourself down to the 4-day week. The first thing you need to do is get control of the time that you have control of. So, if you don't control your time on, you'll never ever have control of your, of your time off.
Leanne ElliottI want to get your thoughts quickly on some of the other initiatives we've seen along the same lines as the 4-day work week. Either I've heard of a 9-day fortnight, I've heard of compressed hours into 4 days for the same pay. Do any of those have similar impacts, or is it kind of missing the point?
Grace TallonSo genuine work-time reduction is what we are talking about in work-time reduction, and that's what we're supporting people to do. And I mentioned to you about the work-time reduction continuum whereby you could be working 70 hours and our You know, what we're trying to do for you is get you home in the evening to have dinner with your family and get the organization to this point before we're trying to get them here. We are never trying to compress hours because what you're doing by compressing hours is you're just creating a situation whereby those people are going to be extremely, extremely burnt out. And organizations that are looking to do that may be seeing gains in the first, you know, couple of months or a year, but it's really important to know that those people, like And what are you actually getting in terms of efficiency on those last 2 hours? We all know that even by 5 o'clock, you've done as much as you can. I think 1.5-hour stints, 90-minute stints and a break, 90-minute stints and a break, there's only so much you can produce in a day. We just don't have the capacity. We're human beings. We're not machines. So, no matter how much we redesign our work, we get tired, and rest is so important. And that's the—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Grace TallonThat's part of why shorter working weeks are so transformational, because people have time to think, they have time to be creative, they have time to bring these wonderful innovations to your business.
Al ElliottWell, that was Grace Tallon there from the Work Time Reduction Centre calling time on our 5-day workweek. I've got to say, when she talked about productivity actually improving with shorter hours, it really does make a lot of sense. For example, if you give someone a task to do and you give them a week, it's going to take a week. Give them 4 days to do it, and suddenly they find a way to get it done. I know I'm definitely very guilty of that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and you know, the research backs all of this up. We've seen studies from places like Iceland and Sweden showing that reducing hours doesn't mean reducing output. Honestly, when are we going to start managing by output? Um, and what's really interesting from a psychological perspective is that it's not just about having more time off, it's about people becoming more intentional with their work time. And as you've said, Al, with so much more, um, deep focus work needed, doing that for that long just doesn't, doesn't work, you know. So it's actually, I think we're just being more productive in the time that, that we have, and we're basically just not showing up for the unproductive time we don't have, you know.
Al Elliott100%. And the other thing is, which is really cool about this, I don't know whether you've noticed, I know, well, I know you've noticed, Leanne, but whether listeners noticed this, Often if you've got a problem, if you sit, you can sit there for an hour trying to fix a problem and then you walk away, you can go and get a brew or something and you go, oh yeah, I know I could try this. I never thought of that. Whereas if you'd spent another hour on that problem, you still wouldn't be any further forward. So yeah, I think this is, this is all about focused work and also having that break because there's something happens in your brain. If only there was a psychologist here who could explain the, the science behind it. Something happens in your brain when you have a bit of time off. Okay, onto my favourite time of the week. It's the world famous weekly workplace survey.
Leanne ElliottYou say you're always so keen to move on, Al. You wanna find out more about Grace? Of course you do. She can also help you implement a 4-day work week should you wish. Um, I will leave a link to her LinkedIn profile and her website in the show notes.
Al ElliottSorry, Grace. Sorry, Grace.
Leanne ElliottGo on, your favourite time of the week.
Al ElliottI feel like I've been properly told off. It's my favourite time of the week now. This is the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery. This is where I put your questions to Leanne. This is where Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist. Um, I'm not sure, I think I put too many thises in this, but she's an expert in workplace culture. You know all this, you know all this. So we're going to go on to question number 1. They call it mentoring, but I call it handing over my job. I've been asked to mentor a new hire who seems overqualified for their role. They have an MBA from a top university, more industry experience than me, and already seem very chummy with the senior leadership. My boss recently asked me to show them the ropes on our most prestigious client account that I worked very hard to land. They're being invited to meetings I'm not part of and casually drop comments like, when I had dinner with a CTO last week. I can't shake the feeling I'm training my replacement. I obviously wanna be a team player, but I'm worried I'm naively helping someone take my job. Am I being paranoid?
Leanne ElliottMaybe. I dunno. It depends if they are getting you to train your, your replacement, in which case you're not being paranoid at all. First of all, I'd say, and we have a really interesting interview coming up that's gonna dive more into more into this. Um, underemployment, which is when a person takes a job that is perhaps they are overqualified for, isn't always a bad thing and might be an intentional choice from that person to, to do that role that they are overqualified for. So I wouldn't necessarily assume that they're out to get you or that this is odd that somebody would, would take this job when they, they could arguably do something more senior. Um, that is just sometimes the case, and, and it has its, has its benefits. The only really way you're gonna find out is either wait until it happens or ask. Ask your manager, ask the person, start to have conversations, get curious. Just as a, you know, you say this all the time, Al, don't you? Just people always want to talk about themselves. Just ask them lots of questions about, oh, so what, what made you take this, this job? And what have you done previously? And what are you most excited about? And blah, blah, blah. And And just start to get a bit curious and understand what the situation is. If you've got a great relationship with your manager, I'd go to your manager and go, do you know what? I'm probably being a bit paranoid here, but I can't help but think. And a good manager is going to go, oh, I totally see why, why you'd think that. This is actually the intention of this person, and they're going to want them to understand sales because they're actually going to move over here and do this and do that. And in the interim, all you can really do is continue to do what you've been asked to do. Show that you are a team player. Show that you add value. Continue to add value in your role. And start to try and have these conversations and find out a bit more about it. Um, the last thing you want to do is self-sabotage by being paranoid, um, being uncivil at work, not helping this person get on, creating these barriers, especially if they are chummy with the senior leadership team. That's the last thing you want to do. Um, so I would say keep doing your job, keep being professional, keep adding value, and start to have some conversations to see if you can find out a bit more about what the intention of this This new hire is.
Al ElliottI think in terms of the paranoia, the difference between paranoia and wisdom is kind of certainty. That's the only difference. And at this point, if you, unless you can be certain this is what's happening, then you are potentially just more paranoid than you are wise.
Leanne ElliottI absolutely agree, Al.
Al ElliottOkay. Right. This is, this is, this, this is a good one. HR is obsessed with personality tests and now everyone is a colour. Oh, Leanne, you are gonna get into this one. Recently, our new Chief People Officer discovered some kind of new personality test system at a conference, and so he brought these consultants in to administer personality tests to all the employees, including the 7 in the team I manage. They promised it would improve team cohesion and help us leverage natural strengths. At first, I was open to the idea, but it's quickly become problematic. Senior leadership now insist we use these personality profiles For everything from project assignments to meeting structures. I'm being pressured to put people on teams based on their colour rather than their skills or experience. Last week, I was told I couldn't assign my best developer to a high-profile project because she was too analytical according to her profile, despite her having the exact technical expertise that I needed. I built my team by focusing on skills and results, but now I'm expected to manage by colour charts and personality quadrants. How do I protect this team? From this pseudoscience nonsense. I think we know which side of the fence they live on right now, without putting my own position at risk. Leanne, this is a tough one. Or is it?
Leanne ElliottIs it? Is it tough? I don't think it is. To quote John Amici when he was on this show, how have we got to the point where we distilled the complexity of the human mind down to a primary cult? He also said that personality tests are mostly bollocks, which is also correct.
Al ElliottVerbatim. That was, yes, absolutely verbatim.
Leanne ElliottThe thing is, I wouldn't necessarily go for your CPO at this point, because if I'm right, Al, in that question, it, it, so the CPO would, would introduce it as a way of, um, supporting team cohesion and maybe identifying some natural strengths.
Al ElliottYes, exactly.
Leanne ElliottFine. Fine. That's, that's fine. I mean, we could also use a horoscope to do that exact thing. Um, I'm a Scorpio. I get on really well with Capricorns. Um, but it's not that, that intention and that use is, is, is fine. A personality inventory of any kind and caliber should never be used alone to make decisions around hiring, development, promotion. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. They are not, scientifically speaking, effective enough in terms of predicting future job performance. And that's what any psychological assessment— when personality inventories are one of them Any psychological assessment is designed to do. Interviews, it's a type of psychological assessment to help us understand, help us predict how well somebody is going to perform in that job in the future. Resist. This is not good. And particularly this personality inventory isn't good. There's a few that use colours. I'm guessing it's DiSC. Am I right in thinking as well that John shared with us that that was invented by the dude who wrote the Wonder Woman comics?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottCertainly everything there. So yeah, run, run away. Um, the other thing about, I guess, just very simple, if you are thinking about using psychometrics, first of all, you should really work with somebody who is trained in psychometrics. Um, Level A is usually around general mental, general mental ability or competencies. Level B, um, is around personality. That is the BPS's, um, certifications. I myself am both Level A and B certified, so I'm hiring somebody like me or another occupational psychologist Great move. Second, when it comes to personality, there's 2, very broadly speaking, 2 theories. There's type and there's trait. Type puts us in a box. We're a red, we're a yellow, we're a green, we're a blue, we're an INTP, DRJ, ABCFY. Um, typically anyone who's a type, not good. Any tool that puts people as a type, not good. Trait is more kind of saying, right, we all have We all sit somewhere on a scale between introversion and extroversion. It's not that I'm an I, I'm an introvert. I sit somewhere on the scale between introversion and extroversion, and I just happen to be a little bit closer to introversion. Much better, because when we have these kind of scales, it gives us much more rich data to help us understand somebody's strengths and preferences. So yeah, if you're looking for a tool around personality, Go for traits over type. That said, my personal preference in terms of using these type of assessments is to use something that's much more behaviour-based. My favourite one is the Real World Leader from the Real World Group, which can be used in recruitment development scenarios. Again, never alone. It needs to be part of a bigger assessment.
Grace TallonYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, I guess to recap, you're not wrong, you're living on the right side of the fence. Your CPO might have just got herself in a pickle and the leadership team has run with this. My thought would be go and have a conversation with the CPO, see if that was their intention. Do what you can to resist making decisions on this alone. And it's not to say that there might be a bit of smoke and mirrors here. You might be like, oh yeah, no, totes, like, Johns are red and Josephines are yellow.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut actually, you've also looked into their performance and their strengths and their preferences, maybe what actually they want to do in terms of their work. So, there's lots of other data points you've used to make this decision. It just happens that Sandra's a yellow and John's a green. Yeah, I feel like I'm on a big rant there, but basically, resist.
Al ElliottThis is what happens when you put a pound in Leanne. You get, you get 5 minutes of gold, absolute gold. The other problem with personality tests, which, and I'm not coming from a scientific point of view because I don't know any about the science, but is that if someone says you're a yellow and then says, right, so you have these traits, it's kind of subconsciously you go, oh, right. Okay. Maybe I do have these traits. And then you start thinking, you behave like a yellow thinking, well, I could never be creative cuz that's red and I don't have any of the red traits. Whereas, you know, anyone can be creative. Um, I think, I think it just sort of pigeonholes you a little bit, maybe in your own mind, which is quite dangerous, but—
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely self-affirming. Filling prophecies, self-limiting beliefs. It all fuels this in terms of our identity. And also, you've got to remember, the majority of personality inventories will ask you a question about yourself. So I'm answering questions about myself, myself. How reliable is that going to be? Just because how I see my personality doesn't mean that's how Al sees my personality, or how you might see my personality. Much better to look at 360, which when we ask our boss, our peers, our customers, our staff, what they think of us, um, in terms of our either our personality or our behaviours. Um, much more reliable data. Um, yeah, it's, it's— I, I get it, it's sexy, it's cool. And, and actually, some things like DISC maybe, um, isn't the worst thing in a team building exercise, as long as it's given— you give the context, you know, this is, this is just a A little game we're gonna do, and it's just, you know, it's little indicators of what we might like or our preferences or our strengths. It's not absolute. Um, then fine, you might learn something about somebody else in your team that you didn't know previously, and that's only good. Um, but any kind of recruitment, development, promotion— hard no. And if you even— even if you're thinking about including that as part of the process, you have to be engaging somebody who is an expert, not in the tool that they're trained to use, in psychometrics. Of course, somebody who's been trained in DiSC is going to tell you how brilliant DiSC is and how it's going to change the world. You want to speak to somebody who's been trained or, or used lots of different tools previously in lots of different scenarios and can give you an indication of what, what works well where. Sorry, I just put another 50p in me. I'm gonna stop now.
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottFinal word.
Al ElliottI think you've probably discovered that Leanne is very passionate about this, and quite rightly so. So if you are interested in that, then, um, check out the show notes because we'll put in there the link to John Amici's episode, which is incredible, brilliant, as you'd imagine, but also one which, which we spoke to someone from Hogan.
Leanne ElliottOh, Ryan Sherman, Hogan. Excellent test publisher. Excellent. Chef's kiss in terms of reliability and validity, but again, in very certain scenarios. But yes, I'll leave A link to Ryan's, um, Ryan's episode as well.
Al ElliottAll right. The next question says, my productivity is being hijacked by a calendar bully. I'm a senior developer who blocks out 2-hour deep work sessions in my calendar 3 times weekly for complex coding, an arrangement my manager approved. A colleague who's been at the company longer than me, but is at the same level, repeatedly schedules meetings during these blocks. When I decline, he reschedules to another blocked time. I confronted him and he said, I've been here 5 years longer than you, so I can schedule meetings when they work for me, and called my focus time just a preference, not an actual meeting. He's now complained to our manager that I'm being difficult about collaboration. My productivity suffers without these focus sessions, focus sessions, but I don't want to create drama. How do I protect my work time without causing team conflict?
Leanne ElliottSo just so I understand, this person is blocking out the same 2 hours each day.
Al Elliott2 hours, 3 times a week.
Leanne ElliottAnd the same 2 hours?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottOkay, so what I'd say is maybe just, just put those 2 hours at different times of the day. I understand there might be times of the day that you're better in terms of your productivity, but 2 hours still gives you a fair window. So if you're better in the morning, there's another 2 hours you could pick in the morning, another 2 hours you could pick in the afternoon, because it might be that this person also functions best at this time and wants to have their meeting at these times. Um, they also sound like a bit of a dick, to be honest, but That aside, maybe they're just better at that time of the day. Um, I guess I'm surprised your manager hasn't stepped up here and, and kind of explained the situation, particularly if they approved it. But I think that would be, that would be my advice. Maybe go back to this colleague and say, do you know what, maybe I was being a little bit rigid in my hours. So what if I move my, my plan is I'm going to move this 2 hours to here, this 2 hours to there, and keep that one the same. Does that give you sufficient Um, options to book these meetings where I do have to be there. And bear in mind, if I don't need to be there, feel free to book it in the focus time, whatever. Um, if this person is still difficult, then, you know, you're gonna have to have that conversation with your manager and say, this is the solution I came up with, and they're not on board. Um, I'm sure, I'm sure it'll be fine. Typically, people don't want to be that uncivil. They just want to kind of make their point, um, and then move on. So, I, I'd try that. Um, As a first, first idea, just to see if you can resolve this yourself. If you still can't, probably take it to your manager and just say, look, this is a solution, they're still not on board. Is there, you know, something that, that you'd recommend that we can do to make this work, work for everybody? Um, yeah, that's, that's my thought really. You're absolutely right to have your focus time. That's when, when you work at your best, you get your stuff done. Clearly your manager is happy because they approved it and has let this roll for For quite a while, by the sounds of it. Um, so that would be my thought. Go back to this person. You show a little bit of flexibility, maybe they'll show a little bit of flexibility too. Um, and often this is just kind of the civil work behaviour that, that is needed. We don't need to be buddies, we just need to be respectful.
Al ElliottOr maybe, actually, maybe they, maybe if you're doing really well, maybe that's what they're doing. They're trying to sabotage you a little bit by saying, well, this, I've been here 5 years, but this new guy This young Turk, they're taking my— they're making me look bad. So maybe they're trying to sabotage you. I don't know.
Leanne ElliottBut yeah, no, I don't, I don't think you're being unreasonable, but equally there might— a little olive branch of flexibility might help this situation.
Al ElliottAn olive branch of flexibility. I love it. Okay, so that's the end of the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery.
Leanne ElliottIf you would write, if you would like to write a letter, lots of letters.
Al ElliottI call them letters because I'm old. They're obviously emails. They're obviously emails and DMs. Uh, you can see in the show notes how to email us. If you do wanna send us a letter, then I don't even know our address here. We've been here 18 months and it's, our address basically is just our names and then Blagaj Mostar. That's it. I don't really understand the process.
Leanne ElliottIt would probably find us actually.
Al ElliottIt did. I got, I forgot to pay a bill and I got a letter. So, uh, they clearly, clearly find us if, if they want to. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottI think it's just hello@truthliesandwork.com.
Al ElliottThat's, yeah, exactly. That's the email address.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, so often—
Leanne ElliottIf you have a question for Al, let us know.
Al ElliottDon't, don't, don't. Better off asking Leanne. This Thursday, we are joined by the fabulous Jeanette Ramsden, CEO of The Curve Group. She's implemented something many of us dream about, and we've been talking about today, a 4-day workweek across the entire HR and recruitment company.
Leanne ElliottAnd not just that, they're actually making it work. And just to clarify slightly, it's not strictly a 4-day workweek, it's a reduced workweek. We'll go into all of that. And it is actual added benefits to a 4-day work week with Jeanette on Thursday. I asked so many questions. She's such, such a cool entrepreneur. I asked about how it works. Does everyone work the same day? What happens if your clients aren't happy about it? What happens if you're not there on Fridays and somebody, apparently Jamie Dimon, only wants to call people on Fridays? Well, I asked Jeanette all of those questions and she has some fabulous answers.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Jeanette also talks about her experience as a woman CEO in a business world that seems to be increasingly fascinated with this masculine Energy. You really won't want to miss this one. It's practical, it's thought-provoking, and there's not a beanbag or fruit bowl in sight.
Leanne ElliottThank you so much for listening. Thank you for sticking with us. Um, subscribe.
Al ElliottSticking with us? Sounded like it was a bit of a bad episode.
Leanne ElliottYeah, well, it's almost our 3rd birthday.
Al ElliottOh, it is, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottExciting, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah, that's very exciting. 200th episode coming up about my birthday.
Leanne ElliottIs it?
Al ElliottDid the math. Well, I didn't do math. I went to ChatGPT and said, We do 2 episodes a week. We're on this currently, this episode. What date would the 200th episode be? And they said it'll be 21st of May, I think. Exciting. Anyway, sorry, that's— anyway, you carry on.
Leanne ElliottUm, subscribe. Um, only about 10% of you that watch us on YouTube subscribe. It's a bit weird.
Al ElliottWhy?
Leanne ElliottShow us some love.
Al ElliottWhy are you the way that you are?
Leanne ElliottWell, are you a red? Is that what it is? Can we just try and be a bit more yellow, please? Oh, I actually don't understand the references. I didn't bother to learn about it. Um, what are we saying? Yeah, subscribe.
Al ElliottThis segment's going really well.
Leanne ElliottIf you want to get in touch, we'll leave all the details in the show notes. Tune in on Thursday. Um, connect with Grace. Later.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottIn terms of that, I don't know what I'm going to say there.
Al ElliottThat was really good. Debates are still raging and companies are experiment—
Leanne Elliottdoes this come at an interesting time? About Grace's—
Al Elliotta new hire who seems qualified.
Grace TallonOops.
Al ElliottI've been asked to mentor a new guy who has been I've been asked to mentor a new hire who seems overqualified for their role. Do they have a name? I'm a senior developer who blocks out 2 hours a day of deep work. I'm a senior developer. Blah, blah, blah, blah.