Episode 214 · 15 July 2025 · 56:53
The wildest overemployment scam in tech history. PLUS! Fake empathy, nepo hires and salary secrets, with Rameez Kaleem
Featuring Rameez Kaleem
The wildest overemployment scam in tech history. PLUS! Fake empathy, nepo hires and salary secrets, with Rameez Kaleem
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Story 1 — Empathsplaining: performative empathy in leadership
news roundup#empathy#leadership#empathsplaining
Story 2 — The Silicon Valley engineer with 22 jobs
news roundup#silicon-valley#engineer#multiple-jobs
Story 3 — What happens when leaders break their word
news roundup#leadership#trust#broken-promises
Hot Take — Let's talk about pay, with Rameez Kaleem
Workplace Surgery — how far should wellbeing go?
workplace surgery#wellbeing#employee-wellness#uk-law
Workplace Surgery — can DISC fix team tensions?
workplace surgery#disc#team-dynamics#conflict-resolution
Show notes
The Wildest Overemployment Scam in Tech History — Plus Pay Transparency Secrets with Rameez Kaleem
Guest: Rameez Kaleem — founder of 3R Strategy, a consultancy helping organisations build fair, transparent, and high-trust cultures.
One engineer. Twenty-two startups. One million dollars a year. Barely any work.
Al and Leanne break down the most outrageous employment heist in recent tech history — a software engineer who collected salaries from dozens of Silicon Valley startups simultaneously — and what it reveals about the future of remote work, the ethics of overemployment, and why great managers should have caught him in weeks, not years.
Plus, in the hot take: Rameez Kaleem joins to explain why pay transparency isn't just a legal or ethical issue — it's a culture issue. Why are companies still scared to publish salaries, and what is that fear really costing them?
And in the Workplace Surgery: should you hire your spouse into your small team? How far should small businesses go to protect wellbeing? And is DISC actually useful for team tensions — or just a colourful fad?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Empathsplaining: Are today's leaders all talk, no trust? From "I hear you" to "we care deeply," modern leaders know how to sound empathetic — but are they actually avoiding hard conversations? Leanne explores the growing trend of emotional performance without action, why Gen Z sees straight through it, and how performative empathy undermines credibility and authority. Source →
2. Silicon Valley's million-dollar scammer One engineer, 22 startups, $1 million a year — and barely any work. Al breaks down the most outrageous employment heist in recent tech history: how Soham Parekh collected simultaneous salaries from top-tier startups, why the demand for top 0.1% engineers made it possible, and what it tells us about the ethical chaos of overemployment. Source →
3. What really happens when leaders break their word? New research reveals it's not the gap between values and actions that kills trust — it's how leaders explain that gap. Leanne digs into the psychology behind word–action misalignment, why high-integrity leaders are judged more gently, and why "it was outside my control" can save trust when "I just decided to" destroys it. Study → Medium write-up →
🗣 Hot Take: Let's Talk About Pay, with Rameez Kaleem
Why are companies still scared of pay transparency — and what's that fear really costing them?
Rameez Kaleem, founder of 3R Strategy, says pay isn't just a finance issue — it's a culture issue. He explains why younger workers are demanding honesty, how pay secrecy fuels inequality, and how transparency builds trust even without revealing everyone's salary. Plus: the EU Pay Transparency Directive coming into effect June 2026, and what UK employers need to know now.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Hiring your spouse: "Should I hire my partner into my small team — will it strengthen trust or spark chaos?"
- Wellbeing limits: "How far should employers go to protect wellbeing when you're a small business just trying to survive?"
- DISC assessments: "Can DISC fix team tensions, or is it just a fad — and what tools work better?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
More From Rameez Kaleem
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rameezkaleem
- 3R Strategy: 3r-strategy.com
- Podcast, A Case of the Mondays: podcasts.apple.com/sa/podcast/a-case-of-the-mondays/id1691526371
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottHow can you tell the difference between genuine care and emotional performance? This week we're asking whether modern leadership has become too good at sounding empathetic while quietly avoiding the hard stuff.
Al ElliottAnd could the wildest employment scam in Silicon Valley history actually change the way we look at overworking? One engineer pocketed over $1 million working at 22 startups I'm barely doing the work. So is this fraud or is the system just broken?
Leanne ElliottAnd in the workplace surgery, should you hire your spouse into your team?
Al ElliottNo, no, a bad idea.
Leanne ElliottWell, one listener wants our advice. Stay tuned for that.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work.
Leanne ElliottThe award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, we do. And we will have all of that stuff and more just after this very short break. See you in a second. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. Okay, before we get into the thorny subject, I mean, I would never do it, employ your spouse, No, no, no, no. Before we get into that thorny subject, it is time for Leanne's favourite time of the week.
Leanne ElliottYes. Sorry, I thought there'd be more back and forth chatter chatter. No, it is. We'll go straight into it. It's my favourite time of the week. It's the news roundup. Cue the jingle, Al. There's no time for chatter this week.
Al ElliottWe've gotta respect the listeners' time. They haven't got time for our bullshit. They really don't. Anyway, I cut out a load of stuff we talked about last week, so, uh, I think—
Leanne ElliottFair enough.
Al ElliottYeah, fair enough. Leanne, what have you seen this week, my love?
Leanne ElliottGot a new word.
Al ElliottOkay, tell me what the new word is and do I guess it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, you do. Yeah.
Al ElliottOkay, what's the new word?
Rameez KaleemEmpath-splaining.
Al ElliottUh, uh, so mansplaining is when a man explains something to a woman that doesn't need explaining. So empath-splaining is explaining something empathetically that doesn't need, isn't empathetic. No, I'm, I'm in the weeds.
Leanne ElliottYeah, no, you were almost there. You were almost there. Finish that thought.
Al ElliottSo is it trying to be empathetic when you're not empathetic?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Performative empathy, basically.
Al ElliottGive us an example.
Leanne ElliottSo it's when someone looks like they're being empathetic, so they're saying all the right things like, I hear you. You matter. We care deeply about your experience in this organisation. But when it comes to actually doing something effective, then they don't. So they'll make layoffs and they won't give you a promotion. They won't invest in your training and development, but they understand, they hear you.
Al ElliottOh, that's the nicest thing.
Leanne ElliottWhat they want.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWhat you want. Yeah. Pretending to care whilst being a snake, essentially, is the kind of bottom line of that. It's a term that comes from—
Al ElliottYou can't pull lines out like that when I've got a mouthful of water.
Leanne ElliottIt's a term that comes from our mate Jeff LeBlanc, who was on the podcast not too long ago talking about, um, kindness in leadership. Um, and what it actually is, um, he is a workplace strategist, a very fancy lecturer, um, and researcher, and is getting massive traction online because he's naming something that we're all experiencing but we don't have the words for it. So basically it's performative empathy. Um, so he says it can show up in 4 Main ways. Strategic, so empathy used to soften a blow or win influence. Performative, all talk, no follow-through. We've all known people like that. Conditional, so empathy only when it's safe or easy.
Al ElliottRight, okay. To be fair, I think I've probably been a little bit guilty of that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think a good example of that that we've seen recently is around Pride Month in June. Lots of people pulling budgets, like, I'm only going to support you when it's safe for me to do so. And finally, undermining. So pretending to listen, then calling you too sensitive.
Al ElliottOh, that's a—
Leanne ElliottI've been in situations like that.
Al ElliottLike what? What happened?
Leanne ElliottWell, like I've been, I've been in a one-to-one with a manager who's been like, I can see something's up, something's bothering you, talk to me, what's wrong? And I was just really open about how I felt there were certain things happening in the organisation that weren't fair, that weren't supporting my performance, and I didn't think were reflective of the culture that Senior leadership were trying to build, and I was told that I was too sensitive. Just get over it.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And do you know who that was?
Al ElliottGo on. Oh, really?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottHey, if you're listening, Alec, I bet you might be able to guess who that is. I bet you might be able to guess. Vroom, vroom. Okay. So anyway, back to the story.
Leanne ElliottBack to Geoff.
Al ElliottThis isn't about you, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottSorry, it's weird. I thought it was an example. I thought it was an example. Um, so yeah, so basically what Jeff went on to say, because he does a lot of work and research around Gen Z, is that they can see straight through it. They ain't buying it. They're not getting on board. Um, that they've been around too many caring cultures where nobody actually does anything that matters. Um, so for business owners and managers, the important bit here is this performative empathy, this empath-splaining, is just a trust killer.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottPeople see through it. They don't buy into it. It undermines any credibility and authority you have in an organisation. Just don't do it. Of course, it does mean actually having to invest in how to engage in genuine empathy and what that looks like and how to demonstrate that. And go back to Geoff's episode for some tips on that. And actually, a week— no, Thursday's episode is some good tips on that as well in terms of empathically listening.
Al ElliottOh, with Tim?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo come back for that as well. So really the question that Geoff is asking all business owners, leaders out there, are you being empathetic or are you just empath-splaining? Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottI mean, I, I just, I don't know, maybe I'm just thinking too nicely and too optimistically of people. But, you know, we had the thing about psychopaths on a little while ago, didn't we? We had the episode about psychopaths and they're actually, there's actually more than you think, but still far fewer than you are actually gonna meet.
Rameez KaleemYeah.
Al ElliottAnd so unless you're a psychopath or a sociopath, I think we've all got the ability to be empathic.
Leanne ElliottHave we?
Al ElliottSure. Oh no, have I got that? Am I just being one of those really optimistic, like wishy-washy rainbows and cupcakes kind of person?
Leanne ElliottMaybe slightly, darling. But I mean, we've got the people who are like, we talked about dark empaths, didn't we, on the show not so long ago? It's that dark triad of personality traits, which are much more common. I think dark empaths are actually about 25%. of the population. So it's a bit—
Al ElliottJust remind us what dark empath was.
Leanne ElliottSo dark empath is basically somebody will have dark triad personality traits, so things like narcissism, Machiavellianism, that type of thing, but will also have high levels of emotional intelligence. They can be quite manipulative in how they use empathy. So I guess in Jeff's example, that would be the strategic. So empathy often used to soften a blow or win influence.
Al ElliottWe've had a guest on recently who, who I think falls into that.
Rameez KaleemReally?
Al ElliottOf course I'm not gonna say.
Leanne ElliottDid you do what I did?
Al ElliottNo, I'm not gonna say, but I'll tell you afterwards. Tell you when we stop recording. But yeah, no, I think they fitted perfectly into it.
Leanne ElliottMe?
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottTea.
Al ElliottI know. And all the previous guests listening are going, is it me?
Leanne ElliottIs it me?
Al ElliottNo, no, it's not you. Don't worry, it's not you.
Leanne ElliottIt's definitely not you. Might be you. But yeah, anyway, there you go. I think, yeah, I enjoy your optimism and seeing the best in people. I think we should do that. Should be our default position whilst being mindful and aware. That some people might not always have the best intentions. So yeah, there you go. That's the word of the week. I'll leave a link to Geoff because why wouldn't you want to know him in the show notes?
Al ElliottIf you don't know Geoff, you should. Everyone should know Geoff. He's just the nicest guy in the world. He also knows an awful lot. We had— we cut a little bit of the interview. We talked at length about Ted Lasso and how he was, he was a great leader, was a kind leader, but not soft. Again, that's a bit of a foreshadowing for this Thursday's episode. Anyway, what have I seen? So this is my favorite story I've seen for a very, very long time. Basically, it's Silicon Valley's great employment heist is what I'm gonna say I came up with, but actually Claude came up with that. So a software engineer in India named Soham—
Leanne ElliottSoftware what?
Al ElliottSoftware engineer. Sorry, did I say that too quickly?
Leanne ElliottEngineer.
Al ElliottI don't really know. So this software engineer in India whose name is Soham Parekh, I hope I'm saying that right. I doubt he's listening. Probably too busy, too busy working. Uh, he pulled off what might be one of the most audacious employment scams ever in Silicon Valley. He simultaneously worked for multiple AI startups earning around about $1 million over 3 years. No, annually. Sorry. $1 million annually while barely doing any actual work. Kind of like if you've seen that movie Catch Me If You Can.
Leanne ElliottI love that movie.
Al ElliottMe too. I've, I've seen it twice and I would, I would say I saw what I saw about 6 months ago and I'd sit and watch it again. Yeah, me too. I absolutely would. Uh, but this is basically like code me if you can or something. I don't know. There's probably— Claude will come up with a quick, with a better quip than that. Uh, so let me just tell you the scale. The scale is actually quite staggering. 22 companies were involved. Um, he interviewed for some and hired by others. Most of them were Y Combinator AI startups. If you, just in case you don't know what Y Combinator is, it's like kind of like, um, it's the place to be for a startup in Silicon Valley. Uh, we've had PostHog. Uh, James Hawkins was our previous guest about 10 episodes ago. He's YC.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So it's like a good gold standard of startups?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. The best of the best. So the likes of Coinbase came outta there. Stripe didn't come out, I don't think, but something else did. There's lots of like major companies you've heard of which are YC.
Leanne ElliottSo you'd think they'd be a bit more vigilant in their hiring process.
Al ElliottTo be fair, and just in case Gary Tan's listening, because he's a bit annoyed, he's the guy who runs it, he's a bit annoyed on X at the moment.
Leanne ElliottWould you?
Al ElliottSo just in case you are listening, Gary, I'm not saying that you employed these guys. I'm saying that these were all YC Combinator Y Combinator companies.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottAnd, um, and they were targeted by this guy, Soham. Uh, so those companies were paying him $10,000 a month each. It went on for 2 years between 2022 and 2024. He only got caught because Y Combinator founders started, started talking about him going, I've got this great guy, but he, I haven't seen him for a while.
Leanne ElliottHow every cheat gets caught. Cast your net too wide, people start chatting.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So, so just give you a little bit of background on this. He's mid-20s. Based in India. Apparently he's genuinely brilliant. He's described as the top 0.1% of software engineers. So he's— it is very much catch me if you can because he's a genius. He aced every single interview. He had strong business acumen and he created an incredibly convincing personal persona, I've got written down here. So basically what he'd do is he would go to interview, he'd interview really well. They'd be like, oh my God, we've gotta have this guy. And he'd go, I'm sorry, well, it's 10 grand a month minimum. That's what I work for. And they went, all right, well, he's such a good guy. Yeah, we'll have him. Um, and then just started making creative excuses for why he wasn't delivering the work over that time. He also said that he got UK— sorry, US visa status, and he hadn't. Um, he once said, I didn't do the work because a military drone crashed into my house in India. And then when he was confronted, he denied everything until the evidence was undeniable. This, this is a movie. This is a catch-me-if-you-can movie.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely.
Al ElliottThis is absolutely brilliant. Now, so why did this happen? Well, engineers are in massive demand, like top 0.1% of engineers. There's very, very few of them out there. AI isn't helping because, uh, people— everyone's now— we talked about vibe coding the other day. Everyone thinks they're, they're an engineer because they can, they can write 2 prompts in Claude and, and create a to-do app. That's not the way. That, that does not make an engineer. The top ones are at $200,000 easy a year. Um, and so obviously, you know, you can multiply what he earned. That actually worked out at about a million a year.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottI know. So, I mean, this is What do you think? Do you think that he was a genius? Do you think he's criminal? Do you think this is just a— what's your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottIf it's criminal, I don't know. I guess it depends on the contract he signed, unless it specifically says you're not allowed to have another job. It could be, if you've got a good lawyer, and if you've got $1 million, you can probably get a good lawyer.
Rameez KaleemTrue.
Leanne ElliottProbably get you out of that one. Telling lies though, to get a job, like you don't have US visa status, that might be a bit more of a pickle. I mean, morally, ethically speaking, it's not super cool, is it? Particularly in an environment where there's lots of people from tech out of work. So I'm not sure that's cool. The fact that he's not doing the work is my beef. Like, if he'd, if he'd been holding down these 10 jobs and delivering all the outcomes, I'd kind of be like, well, what's the problem?
Al ElliottHe's hustling.
Leanne ElliottYeah, hustle. Just because he can deliver that in a fraction of the time, Um, that allows him to do it for 10 different companies, then fair do. So I think it's a fact. I think this is more the fact that he didn't deliver the work. So therefore, yes, I think there's this— it's, it's kind of fraud, isn't it? And yeah, it won't end well for him.
Al ElliottAnd I think it's such a shame because if you've got— if you're that level of an engineer and there's, um, there's AI agents— to be fair, there wasn't in 2022, but still, you can probably, you can probably create systems that are gonna be able to do half the work for you. So yeah, I think the not delivering was a bit Was a bit odd. To be fair, this is, this is actually a trend. There's a subreddit on Reddit called Overemployed, and it's full of people who've got stories of working multiple jobs at the same time.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottMost of them, I think, deliver the work and therefore everything's okay. Obviously, you know, if you wanna do that for like 4 or 5 years, trowels are half a million dollars. You'd be burnt out and it's gonna be a tough thing, but you've got half a million dollars. It might take you 20 years to make that as a junior. Junior engineer.
Leanne ElliottI don't— I've seen people on LinkedIn lose their shit about this as well. Yeah, like people are being, that's why we can't trust people to work remotely because they hold multiple jobs. And it's like, we're just focusing on the wrong thing. If somebody's doing the jobs to the standard that you want, it's not just indicating that maybe you don't need an employee, you need a freelancer or a contractor. You know, as a contractor, I have multiple contracts. Yeah, I have multiple ways of earning money from different people. Like, it's no different. I don't get what the beef is. As long as you're getting delivered what it is, then It's just logistics.
Al ElliottSo if we took that to a marriage, as long as I was doing the washing up and as long as I was a nice person, then you wouldn't mind if I was overmatched?
Leanne ElliottNo, I think you were actually legally contractually obligated, um, as my legal husband in life.
Rameez KaleemSo.
Al ElliottYeah, well, we found out, didn't we, that maybe our marriage wasn't even registered 'cause we got married in Gibraltar.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we did.
Al ElliottSo maybe, maybe it's not even registered. Maybe we're not even married.
Leanne ElliottThere's a good chance we're not legally married in the UK.
Al ElliottExcellent. So this is a, this is a good opportunity for me. Anyway.
Leanne ElliottI don't think there's a great manager I know or work with that wouldn't catch on within a couple of weeks that somebody isn't doing the work.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd that's even before hiring them in the first place without doing the thorough checks. So I dunno, it's kind of like, it's the same with catch me as you can, isn't it? If you can get away with it, then it, it's not all on him.
Al ElliottSo, Leanne, anything else to add or should we move on to what you've seen?
Leanne ElliottMove on. Let's move on. I guess a similar theme really. I saw some research that basically looks at what happens when leaders say one thing and do another.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottI'm loving how accidentally we're coming up with a bit of a theme in our news roundups recently. We must be just on the same—
Al ElliottWavelength.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI want you to say it at the same time.
Leanne ElliottI'm sorry.
Al ElliottWe finish each other's—
Leanne ElliottSentences.
Al ElliottSandwiches.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I like that sandwich. Anyway, yes, what happens when leaders say one thing and do another? And what, well, it's, I guess it, what does happen, Al? You tell me.
Al ElliottPeople, not good things. Not good things.
Leanne ElliottNot good things. So this research basically looked at what happens.
Al ElliottI like how you bought a bit of time to check your notes there. That was very clever.
Leanne ElliottThank you. I was, this research, I was looking forward to it. Wait, back. So yeah.
Al ElliottKeep it together. Come on. I'm not editing this bit out.
Leanne ElliottSo what the researchers looked at is what happens when there's a gap between what leaders say and what they do. So it's things like, Like preach about inclusion, don't know anything about it, have favourites, promise flexibility, then call people back into the office, schedule meetings during like deep working time, all that type of stuff. So not stuff that's like outrageous, but irritating, frustrating.
Rameez KaleemMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottUm, so a new study has basically found that all of this has a massive impact on trust, motivation, and performance. Um, but what is interesting is the reason behind this misalignment in terms of Saying one thing and doing another, the reason why might be more important than actually the misalignment itself.
Al ElliottNow that's a hook.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottPut that at the beginning and cut out all the crap I've just been saying.
Al ElliottWhat, what is it? You can't tell me. Oh, I've just shaken my mic. Tell me.
Leanne ElliottYou wanna learn more now?
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm involved.
Leanne ElliottSo basically, some researchers ran a scenario-based experiment where 308 employees were asked to examine leader word-action misalignment. That's what they called it, that mismatch between what leaders say and what leaders do. So they tested, um, whether 2 things shaped how employees responded. One, and I'm going to explain these terms, okay, but the leader locus of causality. So what that basically means is whether the leader's misalignment was seen as their fault, like the actual fault of the leader, or is outside of their control.
Al ElliottI'm loving that the researchers, rather than say outside of their circle of control, they go leader's locus of subclausality.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah. Why use simple words when complicated ones will do? Number 2.
Leanne ElliottBecause we're scientists.
Al ElliottBecause you're scientists and you're clever and you want the world to know you're clever.
Leanne ElliottIndeed. And the second one that they looked at was perceived integrity. So how honest and principled the leader seemed overall. So they then measured how these factors influence how employees felt in terms of trust, job motivation, and job performance. So 3 really important things. So these are the findings that stood out. So why it happens matters. So employees believed that this misalignment between what is said and done was due to external factors like organisational constraints, they were more forgiving.
Al ElliottOh, okay.
Leanne ElliottBut when they saw it as internally driven, so it's just me deciding to be a bit of an arse, then they lost trust completely.
Al ElliottSo if it's outside their locus of causality, causation.
Leanne ElliottIndeed.
Al ElliottThen they'll be like, oh well, it's not his fault or her fault, Yeah, exactly. But if they suspect for a second it is their fault, it's screwed.
Leanne ElliottYeah, premeditated. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So integrity was also important. So even when leaders were inconsistent, if they were seen as having high integrity, the damage was softer. So integrity basically acted as a buffer for its impact on trust and motivation. So if you see me as a decent human being, even if I am inconsistent in what I say I do, you're kind of like, eh, I'll let it slide.
Al ElliottFair.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Trust, which is the emotional belief that leader has your best interests at heart in this specific scenario, was kind of the real key bit. So without that trust, both motivation and performance took a hit.
Al ElliottWell, that makes sense. If someone, if someone trusts you or you are trusted and someone genuinely seems like a good person and something happens that you feel is outside their control.
Rameez KaleemYeah.
Al ElliottOkay. That makes sense.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it does make sense, but it's not an excuse.
Al ElliottNo, it's not an excuse. But at the same time, I see, I see that's the reason why being a decent leader and a decent human at work, because when something does happen that is outside your control, but people have perceived you as being a bit of an asshole, then it'll go, it'll go the other way for you, won't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah. But I think this is the thing is I wouldn't want anyone to listen and go, oh, well, I am integrity and my team do trust me. I don't mean to do it. It's often outside of my control. Sure, but that doesn't mean it didn't have an impact, right? So even though scenarios— the impact wasn't as big, but it was still negative on performance, on motivation, um, and on trust. So it really is consistency, um, that is really important. Um, so the research has basically concluded that employees don't need flawless leaders, they need believable ones. And the study shows that what saves the leader from losing their team's trust isn't sticking to a script, is being honest about why Oh, I love it. Yeah, nice.
Al ElliottI have no notes.
Leanne ElliottNo notes. Nice bit of research there. I will leave the link in the show notes. There are some limitations, of course. It was based on hypothetical scenarios. The sample size was limited in size and scope, and they only focused on short-term outcomes. But that doesn't mean it's not valuable, Al.
Al ElliottI love how that was a psychologist or researcher's version of terms and conditions apply. Your house may be at risk if you do not keep up repayments.
Leanne ElliottOther researchers are available.
Al ElliottOkay, right, after this very, very short break, we'll be back with another hot take. We're back with the weekly workplace surgery, and we're back with more rubbish from, from Leanne and myself. Don't go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better. Better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode On fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. It is time for our Hot Take where we ask— what do we do on the Hot Take, Leanne? I've forgotten.
Leanne ElliottWe ask our guests to challenge the way we think about work.
Al ElliottYes, we do. And today is something that every single employee wants to tackle. That is how much they get paid, because most companies say they want to be fair, but it's very difficult to justify the decisions they make around how much they pay and who they pay.
Leanne ElliottOur guest today is Rameez Kaleem. He is the founder of 3R Strategy, a consultancy that helps organisations build fair, transparent, and well-communicated pay structures. He spent 2 decades working in pay and reward, and he says the issue isn't just how much people earn, it's whether they trust the process behind it.
Al ElliottSo let's go and join Rameez and find out why pay transparency isn't just a legal or ethical issue, it's a cultural issue.
Rameez KaleemMy hot take today is that if you look at new graduates and upcoming graduates, around 85% of them are saying that they're less likely to apply for a job where the recruiter doesn't mention the salary range. And we've seen this data is higher for Gen Z employees. And so, our ability as an organization to attract candidates is significantly reduced if we're not transparent about pay. In the past, we've always, you know, when we go to a job ad, we always see those words, competitive pay, which can mean anything. And the way that the pay for the role is often decided or has been decided in the past is we then ask a candidate to say, what is your current salary? What do you expect? And then based on their expectations, based on their current salary, a salary range is provided to them. And I think we've seen that change because a lot of organizations are, some are being forced into it because you see some websites saying that they're not going to publish any job ads if there's no salary range. And then we're seeing legislation come in, for example, in the US, across the EU, that are forcing organizations to do this. So, some organizations are still reluctant, but we're seeing many more organizations do this than they have in the past.
Al ElliottIf I had a small business and I didn't have a huge budget for a role, I'd be very wary about putting the pay range on there because it's going to be smaller than working for IBM, for example. What do I do in that situation?
Rameez KaleemI think candidates realize that if you apply to work for a small organization, Again, I run a small organization. There's 9 of us, and we do some of the work that might be done, for example, by PwC or Mercer, and we're not going to be able to pay those salaries. But when people apply to work in smaller organizations, what they realize is that instead of the higher salary, they might be getting other things that they value more, which is flexibility, Possibly a nicer working environment, not having to give up their weekends and their evenings, and more development, being able to work in wider projects. So, there's different priorities when we look at the data. And I shared the data with you around graduates and recent graduates, and that's obviously a younger generation. And you look at numbers of 85%. If you looked at that across the population, that might be more like 50%.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Rameez KaleemSo, there's definitely a generational difference, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a higher expectation now, even from Gen Y employees or baby boomers, that they are expecting more from their organization. But I think Gen Z in particular, research has shown that they're the first generation that is willing to compromise on pay or to accept a lower salary to work in an organization where they feel a sense of purpose. And they see much greater transparency. I've spoken to HR directors where they've said to me, we have people applying for jobs that might have a particular salary and they, it says, you know, you need to be in the office every day. And what some candidates, and particularly Gen Z, might be saying to them, you know what, I would be willing to accept a lower salary than this if you allow me to be flexible and work from home most of the time. or hybrid working, working from home 3 days a week. So, there definitely is an employee population, particularly the younger generation, that is willing to sacrifice on pay because they see having a sense of purpose, they see transparency, they see a good working environment as a higher priority than getting that much higher salary.
Al ElliottSo, you alluded to before that there's been some legislation around this.
Rameez KaleemCalifornia, New York, and in fact, more than 10 other states have started to do this in the US. So, Many states in the US have decided to do this, and it's, you have to publish salaries on job ads, and it's about not asking candidates about their current salary or their salary history during the recruitment process. And in fact, research in the US found that the single biggest factor that led to an adjustment in the gender pay gap was eliminating that question in interviews of what is your current salary? Because then decisions were being made more consistently. You know, what tends to happen is, let's say you are underpaid in your current job, whether it's due to ethnicity or gender, and then your employer asks you what your current salary is, and they make an offer based on that current salary. All that happens is we're transferring that inequity or discrimination from one organization to another. So that is a big part of legislation in the US, and we have the EU Pay Transparency Directive coming in.
Al ElliottYeah.
Rameez Kaleemwhich is going to be effective from June 2026, which means across Europe, all the EU countries will have to do both of these things.
Al ElliottCan you see it coming into the UK anytime soon?
Rameez KaleemSo there's 2 parts to this. One is if you have an organization that is based in the UK, but they have employees across Europe as well, they will have to do all of this for the European employees. And a lot of organizations are saying, They don't want to treat their UK employees any different from the European employees because otherwise they're gonna feel, oh, this is not fair because my colleagues are able to see this information. And then the other part is, you know, we now have a Labour government that says they want to align more closely to Europe. So I don't think they're going to, because the EU directive is probably the biggest change I've seen in the last few decades to how organizations have to manage pay. So I don't think the UK is going to suddenly adopt all of it, but I would expect that they might start bringing in parts of the legislation.
Al ElliottI'd imagine if I was advertising for a job, I'd be like, right, okay, they're going to be my content manager. I'm like, how the heck do I find out what a content manager should be paid?
Rameez KaleemWhat a lot of HR teams and organizations will do Well, they would go online and they will look for a content role and see what the salaries are. And they might be going on Indeed, Glassdoor, other recruitment surveys. But I always say to those organizations, you know, when we do this, all we're saying to the employees is, and if there's a disagreement on pay, that our internet research is better than your internet research because that data is the same data that employees have access to. So what we always suggest is to use salary surveys that are formal surveys that are not based on advertised salaries, but they're based on actual salaries of employees.
Al ElliottWhat happens if there's pushbacks, the CFO pushing back? Are you seeing that? And if so, how do I defend my position that I want to pay a certain amount?
Rameez KaleemThere isn't a lot of investment to be made. There are obviously some adjustments to be made. Because there might be equal pay risks because people are significantly underpaid. But ultimately, whether it's Gen Z or any employee, what they want to know is that, are we being treated fairly? And it goes back to people are less interested in what everyone else is earning around them, but they want to know, is there a process in how you're deciding pay for me? And that's the same process for everyone else. So that we are being treated fairly. And then once we start sharing the context around how we make pay decisions, we start sharing with them the pay approach to pay is equitable, and that helps to build trust with them. And once we have that trust, what people tend to do is they start to not focus on what they get paid, but they just start focusing on doing a good job for you. I feel the topic of pay transparency is so important. It can sometimes be confused with Pay disclosure. So if we talk about pay transparency to some business leaders, they'll say, well, I don't want everyone to know what I get paid, or I don't want my colleagues. But that's not what pay transparency is about. Pay transparency is about giving people context, treating them like adults to say, this is how we make decisions. And, you know, making sure that they realize that the pay is managed in a fair and equitable way. And it's not a case of—
Al ElliottYeah.
Rameez KaleemIt's not a binary issue of you either have it or you don't.
Leanne ElliottIt makes you wonder, doesn't it, Al, like why some employers are still reluctant to list salaries when all the data suggests that it's good for them and all the people want it. It kind of, it kind of makes you think that it can only be for a shady reason.
Al ElliottWell, yeah, for shady reasons, but also like think about when you're buying cars recently over the last sort of 7, 8 years in the UK, certainly, but I think in the, the US. There've been lots of companies who come up, um, who are saying, we are very transparent about our car prices. The olden days when you got some dodgy guy with a fag hanging out of his mouth— sorry, that's a cigarette, for just in case you don't know what I'm talking about in the US— a cigarette hanging out the mouth going, how much you want to pay? You know, oh, we'll do you a good deal. Those have gone. So I feel like, I feel like that has been revolutionized, but we've not yet tackled the sort of pay transparency side of it.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think that's kind of the the crux of it, isn't it, really? That, as Rameez was saying about Gen Z and their need for transparency— and I think this has also kind of been bubbling with millennials and probably younger Gen X as well— because there's been so much disruption and so much ambiguity and so much turbulence in our working lives that we just crave some kind of transparency, some kind of control or clarity wherever we can get it. And I think it's absolutely true as well, um, with what he was saying around, um, the world of work has fundamentally changed. People might, may well be happy to take a lower salary if it allows them more remote working and flexibility. And that just makes sense. When I was, when I was doing my biggest commute, I was spending about £130, £140 a month on travel. And that was back in like 2011, 2012. Yeah.
Al ElliottIt'd be easy double now.
Leanne ElliottYeah, triple. It's a lot. So, so yeah, I can, I can see why that would be a factor as well.
Al ElliottAnd there's so much in the news about people hiding stuff and, you know, not being honest about stuff. So you immediately think if someone's not being honest or won't be transparent about their pay, what else are they not being transparent about? Which gives you such an opportunity to flip that on its head, to be able to say we are transparent. Like Geoff Roberts, phenomenal guy, currently travelling his way around Europe, some of the most amazing places. He keeps sending photos of, but he's from Outsetter and they've got such a transparent way that everyone earns money and equity and can just work 1 day a week or 6 days a week or whatever they want. There's the other guy, I don't remember his name, but do you remember about 4 or 5 years ago when he said he paid everyone $72,000 a year?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Al ElliottAnd so you kind of feel, oh, well, I trust them. So even, even if it's gonna cost you a few thousand more to, to, to make sure everyone's on equal footing, the transparency means that people are gonna naturally trust you more. And as we learned before the break in Leanne's segment, when people trust you, Then they're much willing to forgive you if something doesn't quite go right.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. And I think in terms of like, this is all very much steeped in research as well. This is what psychologists call organisational justice, and it's as much about understanding the reasons why a decision was made. Um, so it's not necessarily a case of, of having transparency to the, the level that Al just mentioned, that everyone is paid the same amount. It's transparency around how salaries are calculated, how they're decided, how bonus structures work, how promotion or salary bands and how you move up in them, how that works. All of that feeds into organisational justice, and without organisational justice, we can very quickly feel very detached from an organisation, not want to put in extra role effort, and really, it's usually a— yeah, it's the start of disengagement. If we don't trust our organisation, then that relationship isn't going to go very far, is it, Al?
Al ElliottAbsolutely not. I know you did a bit of work with the NHS about 15 years ago, and that was making sure that everyone was getting paid the same, but that was just too much, wasn't it? They went too much the other way so that people, it was more of a fight to get what you're worth rather than letting everyone know.
Leanne ElliottYeah, there was the odd person who knew how to, um, how to rig the system as well, which I respect, but yeah.
Al ElliottWas it the, uh, was it, was it the equivalent of Sohel? Soham?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty much. Pretty much.
Al ElliottBut yeah. Okay. So all the links to Rameez are in the show notes. I suggest you go and check out his website. Um, and Also, he's just got, he's got so much experience in this, in this field. He's such a measured, calm guy. He's got a book out, which I thought was about to come out, but actually it actually came out a year or so ago. So you can go and buy it right now. Check the show notes. The links will be in there.
Leanne ElliottAnd now, Al, I believe it is your favourite time of the week.
Al ElliottIt is. It's time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist and expert in work. She's also pretty awesome. And there's not been a question that's stumped her yet. So let's go and see if we can do that now. I've got 3 questions here that I'm going to ask her. If you've got your own question, you know how to, you know what to do. Go to the show notes, send us an email. I'll put it to Leanne next week. Okay, so question number 1. Should I hire my spouse into my small team or is that asking for trouble? Just in case you're wondering why I'm laughing at that, then Leanne is my spouse and I am Leanne's spouse and we now work in a small team. So yeah, this is very close to home. So I run a small consulting business with a tight-knit team and my partner's been out of work for a couple of years now. He used to be in a professional role, but after losing his job, he decided to step away. away from work entirely. Financially, he doesn't need a job, but I've been thinking about bringing him into the business. Would this actually help the team or just blur the lines too much between home and work? Oh, and the PS here is, any upsides to hiring your spouse? Right, let's, let's, let's find out what Leanne really thinks about working with me.
Leanne ElliottI don't think it's about working with your spouse. I think that's the wrong question. I think the question should be, does your spouse have the expertise that is required within your business? And if they do, then you should consider hiring them. Too many— I think this is very true of every small business owner, um, that will always look to the people they know, and typically that will include family, to fill roles and functions within their business. And I think that's fine, so long as they are part of the same recruitment process you'd put everyone else through. And this starts by understanding the job that you need in your business. What's role that is required in your business. What is it going to deliver? How does it fit into everything else and how that's delivered? That's what psychologists call a job analysis. That is where you start. If you start at that point and then look at actually the type of experience and skills and knowledge and capabilities you're going to need to fill that role, if your spouse meets that criteria, then yeah, it might well be worth bringing them into the business. There are complications that come with that. And I think unless your, your partner really, really wants to work in your business, I wouldn't advise it. I think it would blur lines. It sounds like it's not necessarily something that has to happen. If there's an underlying turn here that you think they need to be engaging in some type of work, there's lots of different things they could look at. If they were in a professional role previously, they'd look at, um, non-exec roles. They could look at board advisory, more voluntary stuff, charities, public sector. Lots of fulfilling roles out there for somebody who has expertise, but doesn't necessarily need to earn a paycheck. Um, so overall, I would say the way you've asked the question, I'm not sure you've entirely thought this through. So, as a high-level, simple answer, no, don't hire your spouse. Do the work to understand what your business needs. Do the work to understand what your partner needs, and then go from there.
Al ElliottYes, I think, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. There's something which bothered me about this question was, It felt like the person asking the question was basically going, well, I have to go to work.
Leanne ElliottOh.
Al ElliottAnd so this person, so my partner needs to, it's not fair they sit at home because they don't talk about kids or anything or any childcare or any caring or caring stuff that may well be, but I don't know. Uh, so I got the sense that they were a bit like a little bit jealous of going, well, I would love to be able to sit at home and, uh, and watch Bargain Hunt. And, um, that's a very British daytime TV show, by the way. Uh, reference there for all us Brits. Um, the other thing which I was thinking was if they have got expertise, why not bring them in as a consultant or even just a, just this, this new term that I've just made up called a silent consultant. And that's where they would, they would do the work, but nobody actually knows they're delivering the work. You're just, you just go, oh, I've got a consultant. Um, even, I mean, you could even just try that anyway. That might be an idea to start off with is just get them in. As a consultant, whether it's a silent consultant or not, your dark consultant, that's what I'm gonna call it from now on, dark consultancy. So it's my word of the week. Um, and bring them in and see if they actually do bring value. Just do like a 2 or 3 week project because you'll soon find out, A, if you can work with them, B, if they actually are bringing in, um, sort of like you said, value, and C, most importantly, whether they actually want to do it. Because they might even be telling you they want to do it, but actually they might just be They feel like they have to say that. Any other thoughts, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI think, what do they say? Are there any upsides in hiring your spouse?
Al ElliottCareful.
Leanne ElliottUpsides are you can speak very openly, very clearly what's on your mind. You can bounce ideas around. They'll become equally obsessed with you over an idea that nobody else in your organisation will quite get to that same level. Um, I think ultimately it gives you quite a lot of flexibility if you're working in the same organisation, because you're working to the same schedules, the same hours, the same Kind of, yeah, peaks and troughs of what's happening. The thing is, I think you suddenly become everything to each other when you work with your spouse. You become colleagues, you become friends, you become frenemies from time to time. Um, it's a lot. So you, I think you have to be really confident in your relationship, um, to really, to really, yeah, get the benefits from it. Lots of people say to us, oh, I don't know how you do it, how you do it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd that to me is a sign, well, then you shouldn't do it because if, if, if it's not even like, couldn't even imagine it, then probably not. I don't know. What do you think though? Are there any upsides?
Al ElliottThere aren't many upsides, being truthful. Um, there's, um, yeah, look, I think some of the upsides are that, uh, that work, that you're sitting down at night and you can't, and I'll say to Leanne, you okay to talk about work? She'll go, yeah, yeah, yeah, fine. And we'll chat. Um, that's cool. Some of the other upsides are they know you so well that if you say you're gonna do something, they'll call you out and go, but you're not. Um, or if you say, I will do this, they'll be like, cool, I know you've got this. Um, downsides are you just can't really turn off. Um, because if, if, you know, you sit there on a Saturday and you wanna chat about something, you go, what have you done this week? Well, I've done the same thing as you. You've sat opposite me for most of the day. Um, so there's that. Um, and the other downside, which is also potentially an upside, is that you tend to be able to take the same time off, shall I say.
Rameez KaleemMm-hmm.
Al ElliottSo currently in Bulgaria, it is now, it is 36 degrees today, beautifully sunny, um, a lovely time to go and sit in the pool. And I think if Leanne had half said to me, Al, should we just sack off this recording and go and sit in the pool? Part of me would be like, maybe, maybe.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's easy to skive for your spouse, that's for sure.
Al ElliottAnyway, so I hope it works out for you. And, and if any of those things start to, you know, ring true a little bit, just ask yourself that question. What, what's my motivation for bringing my person Into, into work. So question number 2, to what degree is an employer responsible for the wellbeing of their employees? As this person says, I run a small business and this question has been on my mind more and more lately. In a perfect world, I'd want to support my team as much as I can, but in the real world, things aren't always that simple, especially when you're trying to keep a business afloat. What are your thoughts, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottExcellent question. Very simple answer. If you are a UK business, that employs 2 or more people, you have a legal obligation to order the stress risk factors within your business every 12 months. And if you have more than 5 people on your team, you have to share the feedback with them too.
Al ElliottInteresting. Bet most people don't know that.
Leanne ElliottNo, most people don't. It's not, it's not very much enforced. This is under the Health and Safety Executive and all the health and safety laws that go with it. So yeah, you have a legal obligation to not to invest necessarily in employee wellbeing, but to measure the aspects of your work environment that may be causing stress. You then have a moral obligation. If not, it's a grey area whether it's a legal obligation to actually do something with that. So, I think this is where often business owners will get a bit confused around wellbeing. They'll see wellbeing as like, oh, well, do I need to have an EAP programme? Do I need to have mindfulness at lunch? And do I need to, you know, offer free counselling or sessions around financial wellbeing?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd that's, yes, that's nice to have. You don't have a legal obligation to do any of that. They're what we call in psychology individual-level interventions. They're things that help an individual manage stress, build their resilience, which is half the story. The other half of the story, which is why it's in HSE law, is that health and safety law is that you have a responsibility as a business owner to create an environment that is psychologically safe. for your workforce, much as you have to make it physically safe. So, you can't have broken steps and just holes in the middle of the office. It's really easy to get compliant with this. The HSE themselves have a management standard survey that looks at kind of the 5 main aspects that can cause stress in the workplace. That's things like relationships, level of control somebody has over their role, the amount of change that happens in an organisation, and you can just Send that survey out to your people. They also have a score sheet, um, that comes with that, and it'll give you an idea of, of kind of how people are thinking and feeling in your business and, and where your stress hotspots potentially are. Um, it's not always very transparent at giving you an exact reason why, so it might tell you that relationships in your business are a bit strained and are a source of stress, but won't necessarily go into the detail of why that is and the impact it's having on your business. If you want to do that, you need a more detailed employee engagement survey. But it's a really good starting point, and of course, it's a legal obligation. So, I'd start with that because, yeah, the other stuff is nice to have. The other stuff is important, but it's half the story. And I think for most individuals, they will rarely cite individual-level interventions that aren't working for them. Like, you're not going to hear people go, oh, do you know what? I went to meditation at lunch today, and the instructor was really bad. Like, they tend to say, my manager is awful and is ruining my life, or I have such a high workload right now, because they're the actual organisational elements that impact stress, and that's where you have a legal obligation.
Al ElliottNicely put. And I think that's a key thing to remember is that I think a lot of people think, oh, wellbeing of my employees is, like you say, wellness app, it's mindfulness, it's journaling and all that kind of thing. Whereas, as Leanne said, that's the equivalent of, I don't know. I don't know anything about fitness, but that'll be equivalent of warming down. But the actual important thing is going out for a 5K run, and that is like having decent managers. And I mean, if you're interested in this, there are 7 Rs for an amazing workplace culture, which Leanne has designed. It's called the RX7. 7 times R, get it? And some of those are role, responsibility, recognition, relationships. These are the core things. And these are things, if you get them right, then you don't need a wellness app. Or in fact, if you do, then it's just like, oh, brilliant. Everyone's doing so well that they're like, wouldn't it be nice to have a bit of yoga together at lunch, you know, in the park or something? So yeah, I think that's really, really important. But it's a great question to ask and a brave question because I think a lot of employers wouldn't necessarily want to ask that question. To be fair, it was anonymous, but wouldn't want to ask that question. And I think just my last bit of advice would be as a fellow business owner who doesn't— I know more about this than most people. do just because we talk about it twice a week. But before Leanne and I started doing this, I would've gone, oh God, what do I need to do? Don't worry, there's very little you actually have to do, have to do. There's one thing, train your managers. That's what Leanne always says. But just get Leanne's email, jump on it, jump on a call with her for 20 minutes and she'll talk you through like the quick 80/20 wins. And you can just employ someone for like once a month just to help you with this. You don't need to have a full-time person.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. Um, I'll leave a link to the HSC stuff in the show notes so you can read more about what your legal obligations are, um, and the tools that they offer to use and which are completely free.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Okay, so question number 3, can DiSC, D-I-S-C, actually help with team tensions, or is there something better?
Leanne ElliottThere's something better. Was there more?
Al ElliottThere is more. Now, uh, this person runs a marketing agency, 14 people, and they're recently having some personality clashes. One team member in particular asks endless questions. I think it's about them getting it right, but it's winding the rest of the team up. Some are actively avoiding her now, and I don't want this to get worse. I'm thinking about using DiSC, which we'll ask what you'll explain what DiSC is in a second, to help everyone understand each other a bit better, but I've never used it before. Is there something better I should be looking at instead? Just so I know, is DiSC, is that the red hat, blue hat, or is that Edward de Bono?
Leanne ElliottYeah. No, no, not, not the hats, but it's colors.
Al ElliottRight. Okay.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo tell us what DiSC is and why, what your thought, what your candid thoughts are on it, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottUm, DiSC was invented by the same person who wrote the Wonder Woman comics. I think that's all you need to know about the scientific validity of DiSC. Um, yeah, it's not— it's very popular. It's very popular, and I understand why, because it gives teams a really nice, clear vocabulary and visual representation of their role within a team, and that's really nice. Um, but as John Amici said, how do we distill the complexity of human behavior to 4 primary colors? It's just not that simple. Um, and I think that's the same with any kind of type-based personality assessment. By type-based, I mean it puts you into a box or it puts you into color. Um, so DiSC puts you into, into red, blue, yellow, green. Um, Myers-Briggs will put you into INTP, ENFJ, and all that nonsense.
Al ElliottSo tempted to give you another one.
Leanne ElliottGo on.
Al ElliottNo, I can't.
Leanne ElliottOh, I know, I know which one you— yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you're as well from a scientific perspective having a team building afternoon with your staff and talking about everyone's different horoscope. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's as useful as that in terms of a valid way of, of building relationships and self-awareness and understanding, you know, between your team. There are some psychologists, and some psychologists have been on this show, that will say, I don't see the harm if it's for team building, if it's a caveat, it's not being used as anything towards recruitment or formal development, it's just a team building exercise. I don't see the harm. I kind of see the harm just because business owners like this stuff because it's just so easy to understand. So, they'll go, oh, do you know what, that was great, and they said we shouldn't use it for recruitment, but do you think we should? Because looking at our team, we don't really have any yellows. We should probably hire a yellow. So, for me, it kind of— the danger is there because that quick fix is just so tempting, understandably, to a business owner when it comes to recruitment. So, I personally don't enjoy recommending these types of tools in any scenario. Type-based ones, if you really want to do a type-based, the only one that I would say is fairly useful is Belbin.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottThe Team Oz, that's like the old school one, but I think it still stands in terms of a useful type-based assessment that helps you understand roles within a team. So, that's things like, are you a plant? Do you have the ideas and the creativity? Are you a completer finisher? I think there's 8 or 9 roles, so it's a bit more extended than just 4.
Al ElliottAre they the ones where it usually has 2 words? You're a completer finisher, you're a starter ender.
Leanne ElliottYeah, monitor evaluator or something. Yeah. So, I think that can be quite helpful, particularly if you've got somebody who's asking lots of questions. It might help them understand kind of why they do that and where they sit in the role. They sound like a bit of a duck shuffler, as we talked about the other week, a perfectionist. And how that can rub up a completer finisher the wrong way, because they just want to get the job done. And also build that self-awareness that this is my, you know, default behaviour. Maybe at times I need to modify that a little bit to, you know, meet the objectives and deliver the outcomes that the team needs to deliver. So, I think for understanding, that can be really helpful, and it's really simple. It's not a long questionnaire, so it's not too time-intensive. So, Belvin could be a good one. I prefer behaviour-based tools because I think they're just a bit more, a bit more useful in a team dynamic when we're talking about behaviours underpinning culture. Um, I also think from a, um, scientific perspective, there's a bit more validity to them. Even the very best personality inventories are only, you know, so much effective in terms of predicting job performance. Um, Yeah. Even the very best ones. I respect them, and I think they play an important role. But I think for these type of things, I prefer behavior-based interventions. So, I'd be thinking things like tools from the Real World Leader Group are really great. They do a 360. They do an individual one as well. Things like the Hogan Personality Inventory could be quite good. That's based on the Big 5 model of personality, which is probably one of the most researched and validated in in the field, but again links it to, to behaviors. So they would be my go-to, um, in terms of doing this. But there are also other things you can do, um, within a team building exercise, um, to, to build that understanding and awareness. I think it was Sophie Wood that gave us a really great one on her episode a few weeks ago about trans inclusion.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat's about how you write down circles of like what's made me me up to this point and the individual experience I've had. And it's those types of conversations that are gonna going to build openness and honesty and, and understanding. So I think that's the objective, isn't it? Is how do you build self-awareness and mutual understanding? And for me, I'm not sure that DiSC is going to be a very effective way of doing that. The other problem with something like DiSC and any type-based psychometric to be mindful of and be careful of is that once people know that they're a red or a green or an INTP, they cling onto that identity with everything they have. And some people will do it in a way that's like, well, that means that these areas I need to work on and develop myself as a professional. There are others that will use it as an excuse.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI can't do that. I'm, I'm a, I'm a completer finisher. I'm not a plant. I can't do that. I'm a blue. I'm not a red. Um, and you really want to avoid that use of that shared vocabulary. Um, so you kind of want somebody to deliver this in a way as well that helps explain that these things are indicative of what our preferences are. They're not written in stone because we've all known those important, you know, annoying people that are kind of like, you know, I'm an asshole because I'm a Scorpio. What can I say?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, and it's, that's not cool. Um, so I'll leave links to Belbin and the HPI in the show notes, but in terms of DiSC, nah.
Al ElliottUh, Leanne did her dissertation on Hogan and we've actually had, we had the chief scientific officer from Hogan, um, on, Ryan, um, maybe, oh, Back in the early, early days. So if you're—
Leanne ElliottIt's been on a couple of times.
Al ElliottYeah, it's actually— yes, if you're interested, just search Truth, Lies and Work, uh, Hogan, and you'll find it. You'll find the episodes. We'll try and put them in the show notes if we remember. Um, and, uh, but yeah, I've got nothing else to add to that. Leanne's the expert in that. And I think the main thing is like, I wanted to make the point, and you made it at the end, that as soon as, as soon as you decide someone is a red, then you've made it, made up your mind about them. And as soon as you decide you're a blue, you've made up your mind about yourself. And if you're not careful, then you get, well, like, that's the reason why I don't get on with them. Because they're a red and it's like, well, hang on, maybe it's because you're just a bit of an arse. I don't know. Anyway, so all the links will be in the show notes. Leanne, anything else to add before we say goodbye to these lovely people?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottOkay, so we're back next Tuesday with another This Week in Work where we have a hot take, of course, we have a news roundup, and the same you've just listened to, the world-famous weekly workplace surgery. Robbie, why, why I put your question to the end? Nearly got it out there. Nearly got it out. And on Thursday, we have got the nicest man in We do.
Leanne ElliottTim Lupicini, he's giving us a masterclass on humility in leadership. Um, and I think, I think you might be surprised. He's certainly not soft. He's wildly successful. Um, and just kind of shows that, that being a good person is half the work.
Al ElliottYeah. And if you're wondering, oh, right, there's another person who leads 3 people and who's got a good idea. No, this guy, he's got 24 offices, law offices across the, across the US. leads thousands upon thousands of people and still manages to, to just be a really decent guy and a great leader. So if you manage a lot of people or you want to manage a lot of people, then this Thursday's episode is right up your street. Lee, people need to subscribe, do they not?
Leanne ElliottYeah, if you wouldn't mind subscribing wherever you listen to your podcasts, um, leave a review, that would be really nice. Thank you to some of the couple of reviews we had in this week. That's always good. Get in touch, come over to LinkedIn, join the conversation. That's where we have all the chats, bare our souls, um, and pretend that everything's okay. Actually, we don't pretend that everything is okay. That's the point. Anyway, come over, have a chat.
Al ElliottJust to be clear, Leanne said bare our souls, not bare arseholes.
Leanne ElliottJust to be clear.
Al ElliottWe will see you next week. Bye-bye. Bye. And could the wildest employment Scam in Silicon History Valley. Let's go and join Rameez and we'll learn why this is not necessarily a legal or an ethical issue, but a cultural one.
Leanne ElliottYou might want to say pay transparency just to—
Al ElliottSo let's go and join Rameez and find out if pay transparency is a legal, unethical, or a cult— that's not right. They suddenly come out and go, oh, well, oh, well, look at this. They do that again. I think I was on to a good point. Oh, this is a really short one. I'm sorry, I, I should have read this properly. Do that again.