Episode 207 · 19 June 2025 · 41:59
What happens when leaders start being kind? With Jeff LeBlanc
Featuring Jeff LeBlanc
What happens when leaders start being kind? With Jeff LeBlanc
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Intro: What do you picture when you hear 'kindness at work'?
Jeff's origin story — where the Engaged Empathy Leadership Model came from
interview#empathy#leadership#model#origin
The 3 pillars: kindness, structure, and fairness
The difference between being nice and being kind
interview#nice-vs-kind#kindness#communication
Do we actually need to be kinder at work?
interview#kindness#workplace#examples
Mid-roll / power and the 'brilliant jerk' myth
interview#power#brilliant-jerk#leadership
Why we celebrate unkind leaders (Steve Jobs, Gordon Ramsay, Elon Musk)
How structure and fairness save kindness from itself
The world's best boss is flawed + final thoughts — kindness is performance
interview#flawed-leader#kindness#performance
Show notes
What Happens When Leaders Start Being Kind? — with Jeff LeBlanc
Guest: Jeff LeBlanc — lecturer at Bentley University, Forbes-featured strategist, and creator of the Engaged Empathy Leadership Model.
Kindness at work. Is it the missing piece in our organizations — or the reason nobody gets anything done?
Jeff joins Al and Leanne to dismantle the myth that kindness is weakness. He argues we've been defining kindness all wrong: it's not about being liked, it's about being trusted. It's not about avoiding hard conversations, it's about having them with honesty and structure.
They dig into the difference between "nice" and "kind" (and why the distinction matters more than ever), why clarity, consistency and compassion form the backbone of kind leadership, and why the world's best boss is probably someone who's openly, visibly flawed.
Top 3 Takeaways
Kindness isn't about being liked — it's about being trusted. Real kindness is structured, intentional, and deeply tied to fairness. If it's not fair, it's not kind.
Avoidance isn't kindness. Honest feedback — even when it's uncomfortable — is kinder than letting someone flounder in the dark. Niceness says nothing; kindness says the hard thing with care.
Kindness is a practice, not a personality trait. You don't need to be warm or bubbly to be a kind leader. Clarity, consistency, and follow-through matter more than charisma.
More From Jeff LeBlanc
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jeff-leblanc-93212510a
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Leanne ElliottWhat do you picture when you hear the word kindness at work? Is it a boss that always checks in on your mental health, or someone who lets things slide a little too often? Does it sound strong or soft?
Al ElliottBecause depending on who you ask, kindness is either the missing piece in our organizations or the reason nobody gets anything done these days.
Leanne ElliottAnd yet, even as leaders talk about psychological safety and empathy, we're still seeing toxic behaviors celebrated in politics, in business, and in that LinkedIn, I said what I said.
Al ElliottSo what really is the truth about kindness at work? This week, we're investigating what kindness means in a leadership context, not just whether it works, but whether it's misunderstood, weaponized, or simply missing.
Leanne ElliottAnd this week, we're joined by someone who's made this his mission. Jeff LeBlanc is a lecturer at Bentley University, a Forbes-featured leadership and workplace strategist, and creator of the Engaged Empathy Leadership Model. And this is the shift we want to explore this week. on Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we'll be getting right into today's episode after a very short message from our sponsors. HubSpot's Inbound Event 2025 is bringing together the brightest minds in business, AI, and entrepreneurship. We're talking Amy Poehler, the genius behind ChatGPT, Dario Moridei, and Sean Evans from Hot Ones, because apparently even hot sauce interviews can teach us about business strategy.
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Leanne ElliottHead to inbound.com/register to see the range of tickets, including VIP options. Fancy, fancy, fancy, fancy. Trust us, your future self will thank you for actually investing in learning something useful. Guess what, Al?
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottWe're gonna be there.
Al ElliottNo, we're not.
Leanne ElliottI am. I'm manifesting.
Al ElliottOh, okay.
Jeff LeBlancYeah, we're—
Al Elliottyeah, you can come and meet us there. There you go. That's the reason to, to go and book your ticket today. VIP experience will no doubt include us. I'd imagine they'd invite us to the VIP area. So go and visit inbound.com/register to get your ticket today. From what I've understood, from what you've told me before in my research, is that it is predominantly around kindness. Have I understood that?
Jeff LeBlancUltimately, the idea was what I was seeing from younger generations and frankly, anyone, not just younger generations. That just happened to be where my study was focused, is that I was really finding that, you know, that was something that was lacking, which wasn't a huge shock. But the idea for me was taking it a step further and really saying something, you know, okay, kindness is important. We know this. Being empathetic perhaps is more important.
Al ElliottYeah.
Jeff LeBlancthan kindness, and all of which is more important than what I call niceness, right? And just standard superficial level niceties. And so I would say that, yes, there's 3 pillars, but kindness is one of them. And kindness is certainly what drove— I would say, actually, I would go as far as to say kindness is what drove the entire, uh, the, the, the model home, so to speak.
Al ElliottUm, and you said there were 3 pillars. Now I've got kindness written down as number 1. What are the other 2?
Jeff LeBlancSo the other 2 are structure and fairness. And that's really essentially where I found that, you know, what I was finding, and that's where I sort of draw the, draw the difference. If so to speak. And I was finding that, you know, a lot of individuals, a lot of, again, my studies happened to be around Gen Z, but I really believe this is universal, that a lot of people, yes, kindness was something they wanted. Kindness was something that was, you know, always towards the top, or at least in the top 5. But there were other things. Organization was there. Communication was there. Things that most of us, or at least hopefully most of us, would say, sure, that makes perfect sense. So for me, the idea was, okay, kindness is part of it. Kindness is a cornerstone or pillar, so to speak. But in order to really connect, I think, especially in the workplace, we have to have The structure. We have to be able to, you know, tell people what it is that's expected. Let, you know, the, the, the lines be drawn, so to speak, and the rules of the game. And also fairness. I think people— you can be someone who's nice, so to speak. You can be someone who's even kind. But if you're not fair, if you're not offering up, you know, a sort of I guess you could say model or leadership style that's leading with some sort of clear guidelines and clear structure and clear idea of how do I play this game that we call the workplace, then what good is it, right? What good does it really do? That's my theory anyways, right? And I think a lot of people probably have said that before me and will say that after me. So that's really where the 3 of them come into play.
Al ElliottCan you give me an example of what the difference is between nice and kind?
Jeff LeBlancI can. And, you know, I have a story that I usually tell, and I, and I don't— I try not to curse, at least publicly. But I will say that I think if we can, if we can go there, I, you know, I call it really the nicest asshole I ever met. theory. And essentially what that, in my opinion, is, is I break it down in this way, and I talk a little bit about it in other writings and what have you. But essentially, there, there is, you know, a situation where you have a, let's call, let's say a him at this point. I can specifically recall this person, no names, of course. But this, this person who was everything that you would expect in terms of what the average person, I think, would call nice. You know, very friendly, very cordial. Um, it's definitely someone who people wanted to be around. You know, um, had his favorites without doubt, and those favorites were people who sort of had the inside track, right? Which I think was certainly not a—
Al ElliottUh-huh.
Jeff LeBlanca fair way of doing things. And to me was quintessential nice. Sure, nice. And, you know, I mean, really not hurting anyone. But to me, that's— I then move on to, okay, well, what is kind? And so for me, kind, I've had and worked with people that were not particularly friendly, I guess you might say. Like, really, some of them were a little bit cold and a little bit harsh even in the way that they handled things. However, I found that those people, unlike the nicest asshole, they were people that were— and I can think of one person in particular. He was very stern, but you always knew exactly where you stood with him. He was very clear in terms of how you could get ahead. He was very fair in terms of how he treated everyone. And actually, he, he, I would take it, I would say he was kind because he often would remember things. He would remember if you had, I remember my grandmother was ill at the time, for example, and he would often check in and ask about that, where the nicest asshole would never do that, would never check in because he didn't remember those things, right? It was all superficial. There was nothing that was sticking. It was all just sort of smiles and balloons and poodles. I have no idea, whatever signifies happiness. But realistically, we needed something more. And this guy did that. But on the surface, he was someone who Most people would write off as, I hate to say it, but they'd probably think he was the a-hole, right? But he was anything but. And, but I think it takes empathy to be able to distinguish between the two and to be able to say, okay, this guy actually cares more and is probably doing a better job leading, but it's not as flashy and it's not as I guess you could say surface level, right? It doesn't jump out at you. So that's the difference in my opinion. Then, and, you know, and, and of course, like I said, leaving some things out. So, you know, not to identify anyone, but hopefully, you know, the line of sort of what I see between the two. And you can be both. Believe me, I've known plenty of people who are incredibly, and I'm sure you have as well, incredibly kind and also incredibly good at what they do. Very structured, very fair. All those things, and that's hitting the jackpot, right? But I think just drawing a line between the two helps people sort of think a little bit more about it and maybe analyze it a little bit more. And I don't know if one's— I mean, I think one's better than the other, but I suppose someone who's nice in the workplace and not exactly leading with structure or fairness or whatever that may be.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jeff LeBlancIt's better than being rude and insulting.
Al ElliottWhen you were describing that kind person who was a little bit stern, it reminded me very much of my grandparents who were born, I think, probably just before the 1900s, maybe just after. Um, and they were, you just did not cross them, but they always looked after you and they always made sure that you had, we used to have fish and chips on a, on a Friday night.
Jeff LeBlancWell, I think that's one version. Right. I think that I love that example of the older, and I think that sometimes this is a whole nother topic, that sometimes it is older generations that are more set in that model, so to speak, however you want to look at it. And they are a little bit sterner. But I think that I don't want To send the message that my thought process is that everybody is like that. I mean, there are plenty of ins— that, that's what I would call an extreme version. You know, there are plenty of people who are also very cordial and very, very open and happen to meet all those criteria that I would consider, you know, in this model, so to speak, right? In the engaged empathy, you know, model that would fit that. But I guess— What for me, you know, the difference is, is really trying to, and I would, I would, you know, mention this to students and I even do this myself, you know, really trying to give the person a shot. I think that's where the whole empathy idea really, you know, started with me. You know, it's that, you know, sort of starting to connect with, I can remember as far back as, you know, I'm from the Boston and New England area, so. We have our own fair share of characters. We'll leave it at that. And I can remember, you know, as a child, you know, certainly coming about people who were, they, it's very hard to sort of put into words, similar to your grandparents, I would say, you know, they were the type that would, you know, If you were, if you needed their help, they might help you, right? And they'd be there for you, but they might insult you while they're doing it, right? Because you screwed up or you made a mistake or whatever it might be. So I guess that sort of made me more open to the idea of going a step further and accepting that, you know, taking a look at what it really means to be kind. And to me, there's a, there is just that distinct difference. And you just, you know, when you know, and, and the more I think where empathy comes in is the more that you put yourself in their shoes and think about it from their perspective, you start to realize that, you know, maybe this person is just built differently, you know, and they're not the Mr. Rogers type, but they, that doesn't mean they're not friendly, you know, I mean, you can be a friendly beast, right? And a kind beast.
Al ElliottSo far, our examples, both yours and mine, of someone who is kind, who fits the kindness template we're talking about here, have been people in authority. So is it just leaders, managers that need to be kind, or do we all need to be a bit kinder?
Jeff LeBlancFor me, my immediate gut reaction is Yes, we absolutely need to be what I would call kinder. I don't think— I'm not in the business of telling people that they need to be nicer, right? I don't— if, if, I mean, look, it would be, you know, I, I, I think that life is easier when you're a little bit more pleasant, right? A smile here, a wave there, that sort of thing. And that happens, you know, some people are comfortable with that, some people aren't. But I also don't think that that's make or break, right? I think that for me, the taking a step back and being kinder, yes, because let's say that now we're the employee and we're working for someone like we both talked about, right? That stern sort of, you know, not exactly what people would automatically label nice, right? But we need to— how are we— where— if we don't give them the time of day, so to speak, then how are we ever going to get to know what they actually may be like? Right? And that's— there's been one of the— my favorite things that I always think about is, you know, I had a teacher in high school, and there were all sorts of rumors about her because she was a, um, a very strict person.
Al ElliottYeah.
Jeff LeBlancAnd a person who was a bit strange, which is not uncommon in these parts. But ultimately, she was someone who— she really was a decent person. And it was only students like myself and a few other people that would stay after for extra help and what have you that would get to know that, right? And could really say, you know, she's not drinking river water and living in a camper and all these rumors that were started about her. Not that there's anything wrong with doing those things to anyone in the audience. I'm not saying there is, but the idea was we took the time, me and other students, to really sort of see that person. And so I think that I would argue younger generations are sometimes a little bit more willing to do that. And that's one of the things I've noticed with Gen Z and working with them. But yeah, I think that's a long-winded way of saying, I think we do. I think we have to be willing to recognize and give someone a chance and not just write them off because they don't fit this standard idea in our head of what kind or nice person is. And I think we all have that. I think, I don't, you know, I don't know if it's universal globally, but especially here in the US, I mean, we have that image. I think I mentioned Mr. Rogers earlier and the different people that were sort of shown, you know, growing up that fit that ideal mold, but not everybody can fit that. And that doesn't mean that they're not kind. So that's where, again, empathy, right? Put yourself in their shoes. Easier to do when you're older, I think, than when you're a teenager and spreading rumors about your teacher.
Al ElliottBut nevertheless, so far we've challenged the way we think about kindness, not as soft but as structured. It's not about being liked but being trusted.
Leanne ElliottAnd we heard Jeff reframe kindness as a leadership choice, one rooted in consistency, fairness, and systems that actually support people, not just words on a poster.
Al ElliottBut Jeff doesn't just stop there. He doesn't just think about kindness. He's actually built an entire model around kindness at work. It's called the Engaged Empathy Leadership Model, and the power is in its structure. Now, from what I've understood from what you're saying is that the structure and the fairness is what balances out the kindness to make sure that everything— or you become just the best leader or the best person in the workplace. But Talk to me about those 2 parts of the puzzle. What am I misunderstanding there?
Jeff LeBlancWell, I think they're very connected and I think the, to sort of explain it, I can just sort of go back to how it started. And I was studying, you know, working and studying with Gen Z and sort of figuring out what they wanted in the workplace. You know, I wrote my dissertation sort of on that and, you know, what they wanted from a leader and what leaders thought that that generation wanted in the workplace. And one thing that I was repeatedly finding was that while something like kindness was coming up, there were other factors. And the factors were often the idea of organization. Structure got thrown around there, but a lot of the times, you know, it was, you know, like organized or knows what they're doing, you know, that sort of thing. Very clear, those sorts of, of, of phrases. And then, of course, the fairness element, the element that they, you know, that was repeatedly coming up, sort of something along transparency, you know, honest, those sorts of that I sort of could group in, I felt sort of in the fairness. And so for me, essentially, I took it on, you know, and expanded it, you know, and basically said that, you know, I felt that this was much more than just a younger generation thing, although I do think that it's very helpful.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jeff LeBlancWith leading younger generations, because I think that again, that kindness is something that's, that's important, but I think it goes a step further. They're very good. I, I think younger generations are better, and maybe it's because the media that we were referencing at sort of recognizing the, you know, the false niceness, right? Like you can be that sort of nicey-nice person, but a lot of them, I see it all the time, you know, with students, they sort of can see through.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jeff LeBlancthat. And I think people are getting better at that in general. But so for me, these 2 elements really help also say to the skeptics, and I talk about this in my book, that, you know, we're not, again, we're not lowering standards. The idea is to provide, you know, this level of kindness, this level of empathy, but also balance it with, uh, so that we take it a step further and we make sure that we're holding our standards to where we want them So for clarity, you know, for, for fairness, you know, that's, I think clarity comes into play. I think the idea that, you know, we see a lot of people get hired for positions and have really no sense of what it takes to be promoted or what it takes to receive a raise. And so I often, you know, talk a little bit about, you know, the clarity check-ins and sort of a clarity check-in the way that I see it is, you know, simply having a conversation with your employer.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jeff LeBlancAnd sort of seeing if we're all on the same page. You know, are you— do you know sort of— and ultimately the goal would be to sort of lead with this, right? To start with, you know, right from the beginning with your job postings. You know, it starts in human resources, I would say. But that's really, you know, this is, you know, do I feel like I'm being treated fairly? And with the structure, you know, I really do believe that Structure is one of the things. This is the one that most people actually respond to the most. You know, the idea of having, and it does tie into fairness, but it's a little bit more in terms of, you know, basically being very clear from the beginning. I know that of one company that, you know, I spoke to, they were losing people. And one of the issues was they had no idea, the employees, when I would talk to them, what sort of, and this sort of ties into fairness too, but it was more structure. They had no idea sort of what the policy was in terms of, again, going back to promotion. They had no idea if seniority was valued. They had no idea if there were like checkpoints in terms of how they could, you know, move beyond that next step or even how they would be evaluated. There was no structure in terms of how they were sort of being evaluated. And so they felt that even though they liked everyone they worked with and they liked their boss, they felt that they had no clue where their future was heading because there was no guidance in terms of, you know, what was, you know, where am I going? And so I think that I would argue the structure and fairness keeps People, it's sort of going back to that nice versus kind. The structure and fairness allows people to really think about, you know, how do I look as an employer? I come off, you know, having high standards, but being a, you know, a kind person, an empathetic person. And then the— From the employee perspective, you know, I think it helps them sort of feel like, okay, this person's being kind and nice to me. But again, going back to the nice versus kind, they're actually giving me guidance. They're giving me the instruction, the structure. They're being fair. They're telling me upfront seniority matters. They're telling me upfront, you know, how many clients I bring in matters or whatever it might be, right? Whatever the criteria is. And so I know that it's beyond surface So I just think that it toughens it up. I think it strengthens up the kindness and it adds layers to it.
Al ElliottSo now we understand what kindness can look like. After the break, we'll ask what happens when it gets misunderstood or gets in the way of power. Billion Dollar Moves hosted by Sarah Chen Spellings is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Leanne ElliottJoin venture capitalist and strategist Sarah Chen Sarah Chen Spellings as she asks the hard questions and learns through the triumphs, failures, and hard lessons of the crème de la crème so you too can make billion-dollar moves in venture, in business, and in life.
Al ElliottMaybe start with episode 124 where you're going to hear how industry giants from Canva to YouTube define leadership.
Leanne ElliottListen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts.
Al ElliottNow let's talk about power for a Because whether it's Elon Musk or Gordon Ramsay, society seems to admire a very strong leader. So can kindness really coexist with power? I don't think any conversation about leadership and kindness would be complete without mentioning— now, I don't know whether to be political here or not, but your president, the— without talking politically, but some of the things that we see in the UK that reported about him make him sound like he's not a particularly kind person. Now, regardless of whether that's the case or not, that's the perception. Now, well, let's go a little more politically agnostic and let's talk about Steve Jobs. Extraordinary visionary, amazing, amazing company. By all accounts, he was an asshole. So, but these people are the people people remember, like, oh, you are the next Steve Jobs. Who wants to be like that? But people do. So what am I missing about this? Why?
Jeff LeBlancYeah.
Al ElliottAre we lauding these people who possibly were unkind in real life?
Jeff LeBlancWell, I think that usually, I think history, you know, a lot of the times remembers people like a Steve Jobs for what they accomplished, right? And I do believe that I'm not of the mind that someone can't be an incredibly, you know, like a Steve Jobs, incredibly brilliant and incredibly visionary and also not be a, you know, very problematic, difficult person. I think that that can happen. And, you know, again, I would say that for me, you know, I'm not in a position— well, it wouldn't happen now anyways, but I'm not in a position to give advice to a Steve Jobs. You know, I mean, obviously he's doing what he's doing and that's, you know, his goal and that was his goal and he made it work. But for me, the everyday sort of individuals that I'm talking to, they're not necessarily leading in the same way and doing things the same way. And I don't think that they necessarily— who I would like to speak to is the people that were working for Steve Jobs at the time. How were they viewing him? Were they letting him get away with it because he wasn't? And I don't know. I only know so much about his story. I would like to speak to them. You know, how were they feeling? Were they okay with it because they felt that they were on, they bought in because, you know, he was doing something so, you know, visionary. Um, that very well could be the case.
Leanne ElliottSo far we've explored how kindness, when paired with consistency and structure, can drive trust, retention, and performance. But let's be honest, not everyone's on board. Some leaders hear kindness and flinch. They see it as soft, slow, Or simply incompatible with high performance.
Al ElliottBut when kindness goes wrong, when it's vague or inconsistent or used to avoid conflict, it can actually do more harm than good. So let's take a look at the pushback. Let's take a look at the risks and how power really works when kindness is done right. I think one of the pushbacks that someone hearing this for the first time would have is, yes, but if I'm kind as a leader or kind as You know, a subordinate to everyone else in my workplace, am I just not going to get trampled on? I've heard that nice guys come last.
Jeff LeBlancYep. And I've had that happen. I, you know, in terms of when I worked with a— the example I always give, I worked with a— interviewed and spoke with, you know, someone who was, I guess I would call, you know, more of a blue-collar background, you know, more You know, the trades, that area, you know. And he was someone that was very concerned, loved, loved the other elements of the model. The kindness was the one that was the biggest concern, you know. And I, and my thought was, again, same thing, you know, this was a guy that I think that, I mean, I didn't know him well, but just from speaking to him, he seemed like somebody that You know, naturally had kids, had grandchildren, seemed to speak highly of them. When, you know, when you just didn't— when we were discussing and talking, you could tell that to me he seemed like a perfectly decent guy. So I saw no reason why that couldn't be brought in. And, you know, I remember saying to him, and he said the exact same thing you said, he actually said, and pardon the accent, but, you know, will this be Weird, you know, will they think I'm weird? And the reality is that, like I said, no, you know, and even if they do, who cares? Because ultimately you're setting the standard. And the idea for him was, look, I said, you're not the type of guy that you're going to, you know, be overly friendly and all these sorts of things that would come off. I really do think that would come off maybe strange. But I said, what about little things? You know, I said, what about sort of keeping track of, you know, which one of the guys on the, on the, you know, your team likes a certain, you know, sport, right? Or likes a certain sports team and, you know, sort of connecting with them in that way, you know? Or how about just remembering when, and even if you have to make a note for him, he had a, his memory wasn't great. So he would sort of make a note, like if one of the people that he worked for had, you know, a child that was sick, right? Or had a family member that was sick or things like that. I said, you know, how about making a note and then just remember? And because, because you have a lot going on, right? So you can't remember every little thing. How about making a little note so you can just send a quick email or send them a quick text, you know, asking how, how things are going with, you know, their, their, You know, their, their sick son or, you know, whatever it may be. And in some instances it made a big difference, you know, and I guess for, for him, you know, and this might be a gener— I think this was a generational thing. He, you know, just never really thought of that as something that was even maybe appropriate, you know, like it just never dawned on him, but it made sense when he did it and he started doing it and Things started looking different. I think it's incredibly hard to be truly kind. So if we can reframe it and we can start making people think that kindness is a good thing, is a strength, makes you strong, then that I think goes a long way with the mindsets of people. And I'm not saying that it's that that's necessarily what it should be, but I think that that's part of it. I think people see kindness sometimes as a weakness. I mean, they still do, let's face it. And so if we can toughen up the image, then I think we can sort of get better reactions from people.
Al ElliottWell, let's stick with that idea because if I wanted to be kind as a manager, Then I might say, oh, I'll take on this, this person's struggling a bit this week. So I'll do a bit of their work for them and surprise them and say, great, you know, I've been really kind. But then do I not run the risk of someone going, well, if I just don't do all my work, then Al's going to pick it up for me?
Jeff LeBlancAnd that's really where the structure and the fairness can come in. And so in that situation, you know, I think that it would be perfectly acceptable, you know, for I think you said, you know, you were the leader, right? And you're sort of picking up the slack for perhaps someone who's going through a tough time. I think that it would be, you know, perfectly acceptable to sort of in the beginning, right? Before, you know, sort of when someone comes into work, when you're sort of onboarding, right? When you're sort of to sort of have a culture that sort of sets these things up, so to speak. Right? And sets them into motion. And so, in other words, if that employee sort of is accustomed to this sort of thing and comes into a workplace where, you know, the idea of helping someone out if they're having a tough time, you know, and then they might then in turn, you know, have to do that at some point, you know, it's sort of laid out very clear that, you know, this is part of our culture. We help each other. But at the same time, you know, we realize that however you want to frame it, right, that, you know, this is not something that, you know, that becomes consistent or however you want to look at it, right? And then hopefully then that individual will sort of appreciate that and sort of pay it back, right? And then sort of go ahead and offer up their time and what have you. If not, and if they do start taking advantage, then I would say that it's someone that sort of has missed the boat altogether, you know, and they might not be a right fit for a company that's leading with that culture.
Al ElliottSo in this final part of the episode, we're going to pull everything together. What kind of mindset shift does kindness really demand from leaders these days? And what does it look like when it's applied clearly, consistently, and most importantly, with intent? Let's imagine we can build the world's best boss. So we're going to use your framework to build the world's best boss. He or she is equally kind, equally fair, and equally has structure in place. Explain to me what that would look like as an employee.
Jeff LeBlancSo I think the world's best boss is someone who is first and foremost flawed. And I think they're flawed and they accept that. And I think that's a huge thing that needs to be sort of put out right at the beginning, because I don't think that you can use this model if you don't accept, right, that— because I think the kindness factor right there, if you can't accept that you're going to miss things and that you're not going to be perfect, because I don't think you can relate to people. I don't think you can be empathetic if you don't accept that you yourself are not perfect.
Al ElliottYeah.
Jeff LeBlancSo that's the first thing that I would stick— that sticks out. But I think that if I'm running, if I'm picturing the perfect boss running the workplace, it starts, of course, even beyond the hiring process. It starts with the recruiting, right? It starts with my mission and my vision. I want to run this workplace. I am fully bought in. I want this to be a workplace that people stay, they're comfortable, or, you know, whatever it is that I want. I have it very clear set out. I know what I want, right? I think that's absolutely crucial because if you don't know, then how are you supposed to lead other people, right? I think that's impossible and it can change. I'm not saying it can't evolve. I'm just saying at the beginning, and I think letting people come in, you know, looking at each one, the structure and fairness is a little bit, I think, easier actually. It's not that hard, right? Providing, having outlines, having very clear guidelines so People sort of know what to expect, know where they stand. A lot of workplaces are just so scattered, right? The average workplace versus what I think could be the perfect workplace or the ideal, so to speak. I think the idea is to take and, you know, have those guidelines in place, really know when you're hiring for people, you know, for positions, Excuse me, really make sure that you are being clear, right, about what it is you expect. If you want a certain skill, right, if you want a certain, you know, degree or a certain amount of experience, just being very clear with that, right? I almost would like to see the preferred skills, you know, sort of go away. It's like you either— this skill is either desired or it isn't, right? And then maybe you can adapt as needed. But ultimately being very clear, right, from the perspective, from the hiring process. And again, through orientation and all these things and running a very, you know, people know where they stand, right? And trying to level out that level playing field. I think that's actually the easier part. I think if you put the time and the effort in, that can be easy. But this perfect boss to me is someone who who does all of that. So they have that ahead of— they have— they're ahead of the game, right? Because they, they know that they're going to be as fair as they can be. They're going to be very transparent and honest about what it looks like and how we can advance in this workplace. But they take it a step further and they actively try to be kind. And like I said, they don't have to be nice. They don't have to be, you know, some people don't You know, some people don't necessarily, I don't think, want to work for someone that, you know, hangs around and, you know, tries to make small talk all day and, you know, asks what they did on the weekend and all that. That's not appealing to everyone. So that's what I would call nice. Kind, I mean, I think, like I said, is the idea of as this perfect employee, you know, he or she is someone who is making an effort. To understand that everyone that comes through that door is human, has a lot going on, has a lot of different perspectives, has a lot of background, and sort of accepting that. That doesn't mean you have to cater to them. It doesn't mean you have to change what it is that, that you have put in place. But this perfect leader understands. They listen, right? They communicate. They remember things. I really am a big— for me, I am a big supporter of the idea of trying to remember, right, small things. I hear, you know, a lot about bosses that remember, like I mentioned before, something as simple as— it used to be birthdays, but I feel like even now it could be work anniversaries. Or if you know, you You know, I worked with someone who knew that a particular person, they had had a tragedy happen in, I believe it was like the month of August a year prior. And this boss, I thought it was one of the best stories. This boss remembered that and they told, they remembered and they were, I remember them telling me, you know, he was unsure exactly how to handle it, right? But ultimately, it was more of a, you know, taking a moment in passing to that person and sort of saying, you know, I know that this month, you know, could potentially be, you know, I remember, you know, I hope everything's going well and like, just, we're here for you, you know, something like that. And that does take vulnerability, I think, from a, from an employer perspective. And again, it takes the culture that you build because if you do that and you've built a culture that that's not the norm, your employee might not react the way you want them to. So again, going back to day one and creating this atmosphere where these things are not only expected but embraced, you know, I think that's really a huge part of what I would call the ideal boss. Listening. Listening is, you know, listening, paying attention, and realizing they're not just cogs in the machine, right? They're not cogs with a degree. They're people.
Leanne ElliottSo if kindness isn't weakness and it's not avoidance, what is it really? Because it's one thing to say that kindness matters. It's another to turn it into action, especially when things are tough. In other words, kindness isn't about who you are. It's about what you choose to do.
Al ElliottSo maybe the real question isn't whether kindness fits into leadership. It's whether leadership without kindness can still work. If someone wants to know a little bit more about the Engaged Empathy Leadership Model, then where's the best place for them to go, Jeff?
Jeff LeBlancWell, they can go to jeffleblancdba.com and learn a little bit about that. And they can also always follow me on LinkedIn and they can also put probably do some, uh, there's quite a few articles out there that I've, you know, written, um, and there will be, uh, by late summer, um, I believe it's late summer, early fall, we're gonna have hopefully a pre-link for this, a pre-order up soon, uh, but the book that, you know, will go into a lot more detail that if it were up to me, you know, I'd, I'd give out to for free, but, you know, I've been told that's not how business works. So apparently, you know, that's, that's not something I'm able to do. But I am going to— hopefully, you know, people will read it and respond to it and, and find something they can take away from it, even if it's one thing.
Leanne ElliottDone right, kindness doesn't get in the way of performance. Kindness is performance. Because in the end, kindness at work isn't about being liked. It's about being clear, being fair, and showing up, even when that's hard. That's how trust is built. That's how culture changes, one kind decision at a time.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work. We'll see you next week.