Episode 215 · 17 July 2025 · 38:46
How to lead with confidence, not control. With law firm CEO, Tim Lupinacci
Featuring Tim Lupinacci
How to lead with confidence, not control. With law firm CEO, Tim Lupinacci
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Intro: The Disney movie leadership philosophy
Why Tim still calls himself a student of leadership
interview#ceo#leadership#law-firm
The pressure to have all the answers
interview#leadership#pressure#answers
How vulnerability shapes organizational culture
Handling the skeptics and ego-driven leaders
interview#skeptics#ego#leadership
Jump balls — risk-managed empowerment
Small CEO moves that send big messages
interview#ceo#messages#leadership
Humility with authority — the real intersection
interview#humility#authority#leadership
Discipline and self-leadership
Show notes
How to Lead with Confidence, Not Control — with Tim Lupinacci
Guest: Tim Lupinacci — CEO and Chair of Baker Donelson, one of the largest law firms in the United States, and author of the upcoming book Everybody Leads.
What if the most powerful leadership philosophy came from a Disney movie? Tim Lupinacci credits a song from Frozen 2 with shaping how he leads a 130-year-old law firm with more than 1,000 people.
Tim joins Al and Leanne to share how he's flipped traditional leadership on its head — leading through vulnerability, service, and personal values in a sector that's famously high-pressure, high-burnout, and historically low on empathy. Expect real-world lessons on humility, motivation, and leading with impact in complex, change-resistant environments.
Top 3 Takeaways
- Service is power. True leadership means removing barriers for your people — not issuing commands from on high.
- Vulnerability builds trust. By showing up as a real human, Tim found his team became more loyal, engaged, and resilient.
- Law firms don't have to be toxic. Culture change is possible — even in legacy-driven sectors — when leaders go first.
More From Tim Lupinacci
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/tim-lupinacci
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottOne of the most powerful leadership philosophies in the world comes from a Disney movie. Yes, a Disney movie. And not just any Disney movie, Frozen 2.
Leanne ElliottFrozen 2 is a great movie. And our guest today is Tim Lupinacci. He credits a song from Frozen with helping him lead 1,400 people through a global pandemic.
Al ElliottTim's built his entire leadership philosophy around the idea that everybody leads regardless of your title, corner office, or even perceived power.
Tim LupinacciI'm Tim Lupinacci. I'm the CEO and chair of one of the largest law firms in the United States. Baker Donaldson. I've really developed a passion around leadership and this philosophy that everybody leads, uh, in the context of everyone has influence and everyone has impact and can have influence and impact on others.
Leanne ElliottTim's approach flies in the face of traditional leadership thinking, especially in the legal industry. He talks openly about seeing a therapist. He admits when he doesn't have the answers, and he literally passes ceremonial batons to junior staff members to show he trusts them to lead.
Al ElliottAnd in a world where leaders are told to be more masculine, this so-called soft approach might seem to be a bit of a mistake. But Tim has turned Baker Donaldson around, consistently delivering record financial years, massively increasing employee engagement scores, and now they boast a much lower employee turnover than industry averages. So if you've been told your leadership style isn't brash enough, or you've struggled with imposter syndrome in a senior role, this episode is right up your street.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast Where behavioral science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottAs we said, today we're going to discover how Tim uses a Disney song as his leadership mantra, why he believes acting like Winston Churchill is the key to business success, and we'll hear his biggest mistake that taught him leadership is a daily practice. Not just a destination. We'll join Leanne and Tim after this very short break. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Tim LupinacciI'm Tim Lupinacci. I'm the CEO and chair of one of the largest law firms in the United States, Baker Donaldson. I've been in the role about 6 years, and I've been practicing law about 35 years. And this philosophy that everybody leads in the context of everyone has influence and everyone has impact and can have influence and impact on others, regardless of title or corner office or power that you perceive you have, you can be a leader. And that means we— and then we need to all get better at it every day. So that's really what I try to live out in leading my firm.
Leanne ElliottI noticed that, as you say, you run a huge firm, but you still call yourself a student of leadership. Why do you think so many CEOs do perhaps stop learning when either they get that top job or start to enter senior leadership?
Tim LupinacciI think that a lot of individuals, when they get to that point that they're finally leading the big team that they wanted to lead, or lead the organization, or even lead the big committee at a nonprofit, They think they've arrived and it's their— they have all the answers and that people should just follow them because now they're in that senior role. And I've just learned I'm not the smartest guy around. I work with a really, like, 1,400 really talented individuals, and I want to try to learn something from them every day. And I want to learn from other great leaders. Like I said, listening to podcasts, reading books, and particularly, you know, I'm in the legal profession, the legal industry, and I read some things about the legal industry and legal industry leaders, but I find most value in trying to get diverse views, different views, different types of industries, and then take, how can I take one or two ideas that I learned, um, and, and, and apply it in what we're trying to accomplish here? So, I just think being curious is just part of my nature, um, because I don't think I know a whole lot and I'm just trying to get better.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think a lot of leaders do feel that pressure that they're, they're meant to, to have all, all the answers. I mean, can you tell us about maybe a moment where you've realized, I, I don't know what I'm doing here, but this is how I'm gonna approach it?
Tim LupinacciI think, Leanne, that's a great question because I kind of view that in that vein. And I know people have different views about this, of sort of that imposter syndrome, that people are going to find out that I don't know what I'm talking about. And I've struggled with that too. And I think it's just because you're, particularly when you're not in the leadership role, you're always striving for something. You're continuing to have that ambition, or you find yourself in a leadership spot, and then you look around and think, people are looking to me. And that was, it really became Pointed to me when the pandemic, the global pandemic happened, because I'd been in my role about 6 months and there wasn't a playbook, right, on what to do next. Now, ultimately, the legal profession, a lot of professional services firms did fine during the pandemic. But I really had to ask myself, you know, why they're going to realize I don't know what I'm doing, because really a lot of people don't know what they're doing with the pandemic. But, you know, I wasn't prepared for this and I really landed— this is kind of a little silly thing, but it's a little mantra that I repeat in my head. At the time the pandemic happened, you know, there was the Frozen movie that was such a worldwide success. There was a second Frozen movie, and one of the songs in there was one of the characters singing about taking the next right step. I think in the story arc she was struggling and didn't know what to do, but she said, I'm just going to take the next right step and do the next right thing. And our COO and I of the firm really landed on that as a way to say, yeah, we have our doubts. And others may have doubts, but we're going to do the next right thing and really then talk about the why behind it. And it was interesting when I unpacked the story of that song, it was really written by some folks who had really struggled with some depression. And that's really something that helped them. You wake up and you don't want to get out of bed. Well, the next right step is to get out of bed, and the next right step may be to make the coffee, and then the next right step is to move on. So that's really what I've tried to do when I get in those times of self-doubt.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tim LupinacciUm, you know, I need to have that confidence that, uh, my colleagues have put me in this role to do the best I can to help serve them the best I can. Um, and, and certainly I'm, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna grow. If I don't know anything, I need to ask questions. I need to get experts surrounding me that do know it. Um, but just to take that next right step. So, it's helped me.
Leanne ElliottI think, as you said, there's this pressure to always have the answers when you are the one in charge. Um, I mean, Having that humility, having that honesty that I don't know what to do, I'm going to engage the experts that will help me and I'll take that next right step. Have you found in your experience that humility helps people trust you more or less?
Tim LupinacciIn order to help lead effectively, I think some people have said it's like herding cats or whatever, and I don't know if that's true, but I really have to build those authentic relationships. I need to spend that time, as I call it, breaking bread and sharing things, or Churchill called dinner table diplomacy, getting around the table, Sharing things, learning about each other, what drives them, what, what are their ambitions, because they're very high-functioning professionals around. And so if I build those relationships and they trust me and I'm authentic about, you know, challenges I'm going through or questions, I want their feedback that, that may make a decision that they don't agree with, but that at least they understand where I'm coming from and they understand the why behind it. And I found that that helps. Now, it doesn't always mean that people don't leave for whatever reason, but I just have found that so invaluable.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Tim LupinacciUm, and, but it's not only even at that high stakeholder level, like, uh, the shareholders, the, the owners of the firm, but even walking the halls and talking to our business services and staff professionals, um, and just listening to them and understanding them. Uh, and then, then they get to know me and know my heart and know what we're trying to accomplish. And we're really trying to help them thrive in their career ambitions. I think that's just, um, it helps organizations, you know, perform even better.
Al ElliottSo Tim's talking about Churchill's dinner table diplomacy idea. And this is really, really good because it's so actionable. You're literally just having meals with people, but with intention.
Leanne ElliottAnd what Tim's describing really is the difference between transactional and relational leadership. So he's genuinely investing in understanding what drives his team.
Al ElliottAnd he does this at every level, not just with like the fancy shareholders, but when he's walking the halls or talking to reception staff. Now that's how you build a culture where everyone feels like they can lead.
Leanne ElliottAnd notice as well, Tim's vulnerability. He shared that he sees a therapist. That creates psychological safety for others to show up authentically too.
Al ElliottSo, if you're thinking my leadership style might be a little bit too soft, Tim is about to show us the business case.
Leanne ElliottHow has that influenced the organizations you've worked in, having that approach to leadership, which is quite unique in the industry that you're in?
Tim LupinacciWell, you know, like I said, it's interesting. Um, you know, we've been able to have, um, several years of record years financially, but more importantly, on like engagement surveys with our colleagues and building market presence. But that all comes back to my view, to our people and really pouring into them, speaking into them, as I said, that they are a leader in their area of expertise. If they're a receptionist, if they're a legal support coordinator or paralegal, or the lawyer has the biggest book of business in our firm, they've— if they're a leader and if they step up and get better as a leader, then we're all going to move forward together. And you You know, it's a challenging, complex world. You know it, you see it, and certainly across all geographies and all industries, mental health and wellness is something that people are struggling with more today than they did, say, 5 or 6 years ago, and it's hit the legal industry even more. So, in addition to giving the skill building and the tools to help in the day-to-day professional advancement and professional development, we are really focused on—we call it Baker Well. Because everything has Baker since our firm's Baker Donaldson Baker Well. We have Baker Fit, things like that. But we've really been intentional about destigmatizing the fact that many of us need mental health wellness counseling tools, tips. And that goes to your point, Leanne, of showing up as your best self. I mean, I'm very vocal. I talk to a therapist every 6 weeks or so, and that kind of tried to help destigmatize it. I need a safe space to be able to process some things, right? And so, As we encourage our colleagues with that, with coaching, with access to therapy, and just a safe space to talk, I think it helps them better perform and it helps the organization do better. So I'm convinced that if you really focus on the people and caring for them, then they're going to show up their best and care about the organization. They're going to have a bigger purpose in what they're doing, and then the organization can thrive.
Al ElliottTim's built this amazing culture, but here's the thing. Not everyone's gonna buy into it immediately.
Leanne ElliottAnd that is really important for leaders to understand. When you are changing culture, especially in traditional industries like law, you're going to get resistance. People are going to test whether you are serious about these values.
Al ElliottAnd I think what we're about to hear is really, really important because Tim had to prove that emotional intelligence and relationship building actually drives business results. It's not just about being a nice guy.
Leanne ElliottIt's not about being a nice guy. There's this false dichotomy that you're either a results-driven leader, woof woof, or a people-focused leader. And Tim's showing us that they're the same thing, and research backs it up as well. So emotional intelligence isn't just good for leaders, it's really good for teams. Leaders who are self-aware, emotionally regulated, and able to connect with others don't just perform better themselves, their teams do too. In fact, emotional intelligence has been found a key predictor of team performance, job satisfaction, and organisational commitment. So when Tim leads with empathy, it's not a distraction from results, it's how you actually achieve them.
Al ElliottComing up after this very short break, we're gonna hear how Tim deals with the sceptics, how to handle big egos at work, and his take on Mark Zuckerberg's leadership style.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Tim LupinacciWe've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Tim LupinacciIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Tim LupinacciDefinitely. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Tim LupinacciKeep that in.
Al ElliottRight. Let's rejoin the interview and hear how Tim handles the skeptics.
Leanne ElliottWe see a lot online, on the media about very different styles of leadership, very coercive styles of leadership, very masculine styles of leadership to, you know, pull up on Meta and Mark Zuckerberg's call for more masculine energy. Do you ever get any pushback from people that maybe this is all a bit too soft or weak or?
Tim LupinacciProbably more early on when I first started in the role, because I haven't, like, I mean, that's just been who I am. And of course, to some extent, the board selected me as the next CEO knowing that that was kind of how I am. But I did have people saying, and like I said, we had really plateaued in several instances, but for many people, we plateaued financially. And so they were like, had their eyes on us. Are we going to be able to turn this ship around or turn it to the right direction? And so when I was as you said, some of the soft skills or things that say, well, that's not important. How are we going to drive more revenue and drive more profit? I did have to explain why I thought this was important and why emotional intelligence was important in not just in the leader of the firm, but leading teams, engaging the teams, and in better serving clients. I think relationships internally are important, but relationships externally with our customers and clients are equally important. And those are, they may be soft skills, but they're skills that help differentiate you in serving as a trusted advisor to your clients. Um, so definitely got some pushback. I listened to it. I explained why my philosophy was, and that, you know, if they didn't want to participate in some of the, you know, uh, training that we did or some of the opportunities where we had, you know, town halls about the mental health and wellness, they, that was their choice not to participate. I think over time that they've seen how it really does work hand in glove in Um, you know, helping the firm thrive and have better financial performance, I think people sort of have a little bit more buy-in, but there's still some folks that could care less and they just think that's just Tim talking about whatever, but they go on their way. I mean, and they're, and they're still, I mean, they're, they're productive person in the firm. They're not demeaning anything. They're not, uh, you know, trying to, um, stop what we're doing, but that's fine. They can decide to, you know, take advantage of opportunities or not. But, um, but yeah, you're exactly right. A lot of people, that's just a different mindset.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think with that different mindset, there are some leaders that are a little bit addicted to being the most powerful person in the room, the smartest person in the room. Equally, there's going to be times where you will be the smartest room— um, person in, in the room, Tim. You will be, um, a person that needs to, to give direction or offer that to people who are looking for direction. I mean, in those moments, how do you— How do you exert that power in a way that motivates people rather than than perhaps causes fear or, or the more negative consequences.
Tim LupinacciI don't want it to come across like this is some nirvana and everything's perfect. And is everyone just rowing the same direction all the time? I mean, there are very difficult decisions that we have to make. Certainly in the pandemic we did. And anytime you have people involved, you know, and it may be individuals that will probably thrive in other organizations, and you have to make those hard decisions and go ahead and do that. I mean, you can do it with grace and compassion, and we really try to do that. But I think the biggest part of it for our colleagues is to know the why and to hear that it was really thought through what the decision was. We think we're making this decision in the best interest of the organization as a whole and ensuring our longer-term success. And while for some individuals or for some who don't think it's the right decision, try to understand why we're doing it. And again, to understand the thought process.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tim LupinacciI'm very much involved. I want to have our board engaged on those really tough decisions so that they can help, you know, explain it and unpack that for people. But that gets back again to, I don't think it can be this type of command and control and just do a decision. And if there's fallout, let it happen. I've got to listen. And I'm very open. And some decisions we've made, you know, I have even young attorneys or even some professional business services staff reach out and say, I really don't agree with this. Can I talk to you about it? And I listen to them and I try to explain more of what we're doing. And most often they say, well, I understand it. I don't necessarily agree with it. So you definitely, because I've got to lead this organization and it can't be what one of the 1,400 individuals best impact, how that helps them the best. It's got to be for the good of the organization. But just being accessible and talking through it, I think is also important. And there are hard decisions and people disagree with it and You know, in some instances they may decide to leave because they don't think this is the right place for them. And I gotta, you know, just, I know early on I would really fret over everyone who left and think it was an indictment of me. But over time I realized there's just people thrive in different situations, different circumstances. I love what we're doing here and it may not be for everybody. So, um, but it is, it's something that I think leaders have to be really intentional about talking about the why behind some of those hard decisions.
Leanne ElliottHow do you handle a leader who maybe is A little bit more ego-driven than fits within the culture of the organization that you're building?
Tim LupinacciThat's another great question. And it is, it's, it's, it's, it's, I think it's hard work. It takes time and intentionality. Um, I do, uh, love that, again, that Churchill model of breaking bread and sharing things around, like the diplomacy around the dinner table. Now, I'm not sitting there saying I'm smoking cigars and drinking brandy like he did in all hours of the night, although that was great, you know, for him. Um, so I really do try to, um, build those relationships, particularly with some of the individuals who may be the, um, that have the sharpest elbows, so to speak. And, uh, and then at times that may lead to they've taken some actions that are kind of against our values, against our culture. And it's me then following up, hopefully having built a relationship to say, hey, uh, this is not acceptable in what we're trying to do. We'd love to get you some coaching, some counseling to really help through this. Um, and in some instances they take that up and they, they learn from it and they get, you know, they figure out some of the reasons why maybe they lash out at people, um, and, and things like that. Um, some instances they do it or they just refuse to do it and we just have to, you know, again, with grace, try to counsel them out. And when, you know, you're kind of turning around the finances of an organization, uh, and one of your top producers is that type of person, Um, it, it's hard to make that decision, but it does, uh, you gotta stay true to your values. And so we've done that. And then ultimately it's net positive and others see that, you know, you don't just kowtow to the person with the biggest ego. Um, but it's a balance. It's definitely a balance and it's gotta be handled with tact and, and, um, with authenticity, I think.
Al ElliottNow, sometimes with ego-driven leaders, you just have to encourage them out of the business. And it's kind of reassuring to hear that it's not all cupcakes and rainbows.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Talking of real life, a common fear I think for leaders is this: if I empower others, what if they make mistakes? What if they go off in the wrong direction?
Al ElliottAnd Tim's about to give us this brilliant concept called jump balls, which is essentially how do you give people leadership opportunities that won't sink the ship if they get them wrong?
Leanne ElliottSo basically what Tim's saying is it's risk-managed empowerment. So you're creating these safe-to-fail experiments where people can practice leadership skills, and the evidence on that is actually really clear. Experience alone isn't enough without structure and feedback. Most learning from real-world challenges is patchy and a bit unpredictable. What actually drives leadership development is deliberate practice, so repeated focused effort in a safe environment with immediate feedback. That's what actually turns experience into expertise.
Al ElliottTim's got this amazing story about literally passing batons to people in front of the whole leadership team. It's such a visual way to show trust and accountability.
Leanne ElliottAnd physical symbols do actually matter more than we realise for behaviour change. So, when you make empowerment tangible in this way, like Tim is, it shifts how people see themselves and their role. You mentioned that you believe that everybody can lead and that there's leadership behaviours required at every level of an organisation. How do you make space for other people to lead without either losing, going off track of the direction or what you're trying to achieve? How do you allow that to happen without derailing the main direction of an organization?
Tim LupinacciI learned from a really great leader who talked about this idea of jump balls, which I guess is like in basketball, you know, they used to do jump balls, but that if you're trying to build those next generations of leaders, To look for those projects, look for opportunities that, you know, probably are not going to derail the organization if they drop the ball, but gives them an opportunity to step up and show their leadership. So we've been trying to be intentional about that around BakerDonelson in the last few years because we've been very focused on succession planning for all of us, for leaders, for key client attorneys, so that the, you know, the client knows they've got people, the next generation coming along. And so that's one way we've done it is to just look for some projects, some areas that they can try to lead and not something that if it goes off the rails, it's going to really sink the ship like that Jim Collins idea of shoot bullets before cannonballs, give some jump balls, give some opportunities. And if it's a bullet hole, you're going to be able to fix it. If it's a cannon hole, then you might be in some trouble. And then some of it is just as individuals step up and they do show that they're executing well, Yeah. It's then expanding that responsibility, expanding their territory of where you're giving them visibility and helping them to lead. And then if it does get off track a little bit, you sometimes have to pull that back, do some coaching, do some counseling. I've had that happen before. But I think, again, all this really comes back to intentionality, I think, and really intentionality in trying to— I talk a lot about pathways. I want all of our colleagues to see that they have a pathway to achieve their career ambitions. It's going to be different for different people.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Tim LupinacciUm, and for some it's to really continue to elevate up, you know, in like, in our parlance, from an associate to a shareholder to an equity shareholder owner. Um, but even business services and staff, it may be that bigger promotion, that bigger responsibility. And, um, so we're really trying to be intentional about giving people opportunities, um, like that.
Leanne ElliottIs there something small that a CEO can do that really sends a big message? that shared leadership is a reality in this organization?
Tim LupinacciI think just being willing to have somebody else even step up and have the microphone, so to speak, right? We have several individuals. We have a chief growth officer who's helping us grow, and I could very much just be, you know, micromanage that. And every time we have a new, you know, lawyer that's— or a group that's going to join the firm, that I would be right out in front of that. But I will— I encourage Mark to do that. And to be out in front. And that just shows, you know, Tim's trust, trust me, trust Mark. And Mark's out there. A few years ago, even with our leadership group, I wanted to continue to push this idea of shared leadership and empowerment. And we actually— I had a little, you know, batons like the running batons, runners, you know, you're passing the baton. I did little runners-up that I did little batons up that said something like, I'm passing you the baton and it had my name on it. And in front of the whole leadership group, I called some of our business services leaders up to just kind of let them see the visual that I trusted them. I was giving them the baton to lead. Now, they had responsibility and they had accountability to lead well. And there's times you then have to step in and say, you're not doing this the best way you could be doing it. But that was just a visual to say, I trust them and do that. And I think that, I think, you know, when we do town hall meetings virtually, I try to get other voices to speak into it. So it's not just hearing from Tim. So there's, I think there's, it's, again, it's how you show up and how you're empowering others to do that. And there's a part of confidence in that, right? Because if you come from the space of, I want everyone to think I'm the, you know, I'm the big leader, I know it all, I'm leading it all, then you don't really feel like you want to have someone else.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tim Lupinaccitake the mantle to talk, but, um, but that's just my style. I just, I think we've got so many smart people around here and they need to shine and thrive to help us get better.
Leanne ElliottYou mentioned that there's, there has been some trial and error, and I think that's just the way it is when we're trying something new. What's the biggest mistake that, that you've made as a leader?
Tim LupinacciIt was interesting after it was a couple really hard years, as I said, like we had about 6 months before the pandemic where we were trying to turn some things around already. So we were already in the trenches really having to make some hard decisions. And then the pandemic came and we came through that. And then, you know, that lasted for whatever, 18 months. Uh, and, but we'd had 2 or 3 record years in a row. Um, and, and then I, I think, um, to some extent you're kind of like, okay, we can take a pause and everyone sees that what we're talking about, uh, is, um, really working. And so then I think I jumped the gun and just got a little complacent and just started taking some actions without getting the full buy-in.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tim LupinacciAnd then people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? Are you trying to pull something over on us? When it was just one of those, like, I, personally, I mean, I'll be honest what I was feeling like, well, look, we've shown we're making all this success, you know, trust me on this. But that was just the wrong attitude to have. Um, because we just, it's a constant daily intentional actions of, and, and intentional relationships are built day in, day after day. Right. Um, now, yeah, there's some grace about some things because of the success. Um, but, uh, I just tried to, I tried to move a little too fast on some things, um, that needed some more buy-in and support. And so that was a good lesson to learn just as a reminder that I gotta show up every day and figuring out how am I gonna make a ba— a big impact today and not just assume I can do it by coasting. Um, so that was, that was a, that was a challenging time, but I had to reflect and, and grow from it and learn how to get better in, in leading.
Leanne ElliottAnd what do you think your team learned from seeing you go through that process from that misstep to how you handled it, to then putting things back on track?
Tim LupinacciYou know, I think, I think to some extent they felt a little the same way. I think they were exhausted because it'd been a couple really, um, you know, busy years and that, um, you know, a lot of this is all around change management. And, uh, of course everyone's reticent to change. They like things kind of status quo. And I think maybe even in the legal profession, it's even worse about like, they don't want change. Um, and I think to some extent they were like, uh, uh, first they were like, well, no, we've been successful. We gotta accelerate change even faster. Um, but then I think I was helped, it helped us all kind of realize that, um, it, it, it's just a continuing evolution and we had to continue to build buy-in. So I think when they saw that and, and, and heard my heart as I was thinking about it, and I really realized that some of our colleagues who were kind of getting in and, uh, getting a little bit aggravated about some things, um, that they were right. And, and then so we just had to kind of learn and live through that. And, and look, we all struggle with it still to this day. Um, and, and it's just a matter of, um, being that it's that it goes back to that open transparency.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Tim LupinacciAnd being able to share in safe spaces with, um, you know, some of the other executives when things, uh, get off the rails in their, in their area of focus.
Leanne ElliottSo you're leading though an organization, more than 1,000 people. People will still treat you, no matter how humble as a leader you are, as the CEO, the big boss. How do you react to that and how do you stay grounded when everybody's treating you on, you know, you're in the, on this pedestal?
Tim LupinacciUh, yeah, it is. It is. And that's an interesting thing. And I know the leaders listening will realize this. One of the things that was an odd thing to me was I would say something early on, I'd say something, and then people would say, well, Tim said this. And so then it like became a life of its own when I was just in chitchat, you know, like the, I mean, and I'm like, no, I'm just Tim. I'm not, you know, I'm not saying this as a mandate. It's just a, an observation. So I have to be really, you know, cautious about that. And particularly about, uh, somebody may have a complaint or a criticism of, um, an issue that's in another one of our executives' lanes, their swim lanes. It's not really mine. And I would say, oh, well, you know, that, that is kind of an, you know, Maybe like, I don't really understand that either when I was just trying to process it. And then it became, well, Tim didn't agree with what, you know, Jennifer said. And I had to be really, I had to learn through hard knocks, you know, hard knocks about that. To some extent with the high-powered professionals I work with, they don't ever let you get up on a pedestal.
Leanne ElliottIs there a person or certain people in the organization that will maybe be the ones that will come to you and go, I'm not sure this landed well, or you made this comment and now people We're running it. Are there people that kind of feel that safety to, to give you that type of feedback?
Tim LupinacciAbsolutely. And that is so critical and it's vital because like I said, I could get in like an echo chamber or I could, I, I definitely have blind spots. Um, and, and we do, uh, our executive team I think is very, um, open. We're very safe to share with each other when something doesn't land, something doesn't, um, come across as we thought. And then I do have, um, some of those high-powered professionals who I really trust their voice and their feedback. I mean, I trust all of our colleagues, but there's some that just know me and they're just going to say, hey, Tim, that message is a little flat. It didn't go into enough details about why the decision was made. And so then I'll put together a follow-up. I mean, that happened just last week where we had to make a decision about something and talked about the why, but then people were skeptical about what was I hiding. So like I said, nobody's gonna let me, you know, get too behind my horse. And, and we weren't hiding anything, but I just had to then do a follow-up email, uh, about, um, some more details about it. So yeah, that's so vital. And again, it goes back to what we talked about earlier. I have to be intentional about building those authentic relationships. So, and the, and being open to feedback and criticism, um, uh, to help me then listen to that when they bring it to me and then act on it. So.
Leanne ElliottI know there'll be people out there, and maybe you've had some in your life that maybe have mistaken this leadership approach as a weakness, as a soft touch. How do you find that balance of leading with humility, but also with authority?
Tim LupinacciIt really is an intersection of both, right? It's humility, but with authority, and it's making the tough decisions. Uh, and I think that just comes from people seeing that you are making those tough decisions, decisions that they don't necessarily agree with. And then seeing that your authenticity behind it, the why behind it, as I was talking about earlier, and you do have to make those decisions and be very vocal about it and stand in front of it. I mean, one of the things I think about, I kind of have a little acronym I think to myself every day around the word courage, and the O is out front. I need to be out front. I need to own this. I need to recognize that there may be, you know, 20% or 15% or whatever that don't agree with the decision. But I'm doing it based on all the information, all the feedback, and then acting, you know, and, and moving forward. I will say it's been through trial and error. A lot of the feedback I got in my first several years, and I still get, is about being more decisive and that people trust you. So go ahead and do it. 'Cause sometimes I want to get— maybe I go too far on the spectrum of getting too much insight from other people and getting ideas. So I really have to work hard at it. It's a muscle that you really have to Uh, have to work on because I, maybe I do come across, uh, at times like I'm not making enough of the harder decisions and being vocal about it. So, it's just a lifelong journey of working at it and trying.
Al ElliottSo, we've covered the philosophy, we've heard about the practical tools. What really separates good leaders from great ones?
Leanne ElliottIt sounds cheesy, but leadership really does start with self-leadership. And what Tim's about to share is really honest about what it takes day to day to show up as your best self.
Al ElliottThere's this great quote by Jim Rohn. There are only 2 pains in the world, the pain of discipline or the pain of regret. Now, which one do you reckon Tim favors?
Leanne ElliottYou've mentioned discipline a couple of times, and I think people use that word when talking about leadership. What does discipline in leadership mean to you?
Tim LupinacciIt really starts with me, with Tim, and really trying to show up for my colleagues. I've just, I'm really honored to be in this role that I have and with this firm and the people and the opportunity to lead. Um, and even like I said, we're on the road a lot. We've been doing these road trips. And so it really starts— I call it like my, my daily disciplines of Tim. Um, you know, I got to get up, uh, and I want to walk or run. Um, uh, I typically run, but then we were in our Louisiana offices this week with humidity of 100% and temperatures in the 90s. So I did more walking than running outside. Um, but it starts with just that, some movement, being outside. I get, I get energy from being outside. I love that. I try to do a little reading every morning. I try to do a little journaling every morning. Um, and then, um, I try to eat healthy, uh, and, uh, particularly when I'm on the road, like trying to, like, it's just little silly things for some people, but for Tim, I like, I gotta say, I have no desserts and, and no bread and try to just live by that or else I would just, you know, um, have challenges. And then it really starts the night before, trying to get to bed early, not staying up and having, you know, that extra second or third glass of wine or whatever. It's really, Those are things that help me show up better for our colleagues. And I know some people say, oh, it sounds pretty boring. You're going to bed at 8:30 or whatever, but then it helps me show up and I'm getting up at 4:30 and I'm ready to go and do that. So, and just do that. So that's sort of the personal discipline. And then I'm just, I'm a real believer of, you know, there's all kinds of different ways that you can keep up with to-do lists and things like that, but I've gotten really addicted to this Microsoft To Do and Um, you know, I may think of something while I'm walking that I gotta get done and just, um, being very disciplined of, you know, trying to work through that list and trying to prioritize it too. That's another challenge I have of doing what are the most important things I can do and then trying to delegate to others. Um, and then I guess the last thing I do as far as it's the context of the organization, um, and I read this from somebody else too, um, like every night I try to sit back and say, what were 3 wins today? Um, you know, I had some things maybe go wrong that I wanna learn about. Well, what were 3 wins? And then I think about what are gonna be 3 wins tomorrow. And it really helps me to try to prioritize, like, for the tomorrow. Um, like, one of 'em is to show up and be fully engaged, uh, in my discussion with you, Leanne. I mean, that's something. And, and so, um, that then is a priority for me today. Um, and so, I don't know, that's really helped me just stay disciplined and focused.
Leanne ElliottI wanna ask you about your book, which is coming out very, very soon. Everybody leads. What can we expect from it? Is there anything in there that we haven't touched on in our conversation that people can look forward to?
Tim LupinacciI'm really excited. You know, uh, it's a labor of love and, um, I'm just glad to get some of this launched out in the world. It's really just a lot of, um, really try to build around practical ways that individuals can better lead themselves first. And then as their influence grows, how can they better lead others? And throughout it all, there's sort of this undercurrent of how can we keep building resilience? Because it is hard. Um, leadership is hard. Um, and so I, I, it's just been fun to put together. It's a lot of lessons I've learned from leading here at the firm. It's things I've read from other, uh, you know, great leaders, great, uh, authors, and then how we applied it in our own special way and, and even learning from some of our colleagues. So hopefully, um, it would be helpful for someone if you're really looking for a how-to guide of, there's all that, like you said, there's all this research out there about how to do things, but we try, I try to just make it, this is what we did, this is what worked, this is what didn't work, and maybe it'll work for you.
Leanne ElliottAnd I know our listeners will want to learn. loads more about you, where's the best place for them to go?
Tim LupinacciYeah, I'm at bakerdonelson.com, B-A-K-E-R-D-O-N-E-L-S-O-N. And then I've got a website around Everybody Leads, uh, the nonprofit part of it, everybodyleads.org. I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram and all that. So I'd love to, love to meet you and interact.
Leanne ElliottAnd you've got a podcast?
Tim LupinacciIt's called Everybody Leads, or I guess I'm not creative. Everything's Everybody Leads, but it's really built around talking to, um, executives from companies and, and executive directors from nonprofits about their leadership journey. And I'm just I like to do it 'cause I get to learn from them. So.
Al ElliottThat was the amazing Tim Lupinacci from Baker Donaldson. 3 key takeaways here, I reckon. Leadership isn't about having all the answers, it's about taking the next right step. Secondly, authentic relationships drive real business results. This isn't fluff. And thirdly, everyone can lead regardless of your job title.
Leanne ElliottAnd Tim's ideas are immediately actionable. Jump balls for developing leaders, 3 wins for daily focus, dinner table diplomacy for relationships. You can start using them tomorrow. You could start using them today.
Al ElliottYeah. Tim shows us that leading with humility isn't a weakness. He made really tough decisions about high performers who didn't fit the culture, but he did it with grace and actual authenticity.
Leanne ElliottSo if you are a new manager looking to be a great leader, or maybe an experienced leader who wants to change things up, Tim's just given you the permission to lead differently, and the business results speak for themselves.
Al ElliottYou can of course find Tim's book Everybody Leads wherever you get your books and connect with him on LinkedIn or go to everybodyleads.org.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work. We will see you next week.