Episode 226 · 26 August 2025 · 53:27
Ranking the Wildest Workplace Stories of 2025 (So Far) - Summer Sessions Episode 4
Ranking the Wildest Workplace Stories of 2025 (So Far) - Summer Sessions Episode 4
0:000:00
Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.
Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free
Chapters & timestamps
Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.
Story 1: Soham Parekh's overemployment scam
Story 2: Sydney Sweeney 'Jeans or Genes' ad controversy
Story 3: Jamie Dimon's WFH rant at JPMorgan
Story 4: The Coldplay kiss cam CEO affair
Story 5: Duolingo's AI-first revolution
Story 6: 200 UK companies go four-day week permanently
Show notes
Ranking the Wildest Workplace Stories of 2025 (So Far) — Summer Sessions Episode 4
Summer Sessions continues! Al and Leanne crack open the rosé and grade the wildest workplace stories of 2025 like a school report card — from four-day weeks to CEO meltdowns, overemployment scams to viral kiss cams.
No guests, no filters, and definitely no professional behaviour. Just two hosts, a glass of wine each, and seven headlines that tell us something about where work is headed.
Some get an A+. Some fail spectacularly. All of them get a grade.
🔥 The Stories, Ranked
1. Soham Parekh's Overemployment Scam — Grade: D One man, four startup jobs, 140-hour weeks. The tech community split between calling him a scammer and admiring the audacity. Al and Leanne disagree on the nuance — but agree it risks ruining remote work trust for everyone.
2. Sydney Sweeney "Jeans or Genes" — Grade: C/D American Eagle's viral campaign tagline ("Sydney Sweeney has great jeans... genes") sparked global outrage. Al argues it's harmless, deliberate controversy marketing that earned millions in media. Leanne sees it as a harmful echo of eugenics-era aesthetics. They agree on one thing: our tolerance for this level of BS has shrunk.
3. Jamie Dimon's WFH Rant — Grade: F The JPMorgan CEO lost it at a town hall when an employee asked about hybrid work. Leanne reads it as fear driving emotional dysregulation — treating people like children. Al initially defends it, then U-turns hard. Hard F.
4. The Coldplay Kiss Cam CEO Affair — Grade: B A CEO and his head of people, caught on the big screen at a Coldplay concert. Days later, he was out of a job. It's comedy gold on the surface — but underneath, it's a story about workplace power dynamics and who always pays the price.
5. Duolingo's AI-First Revolution — Grade: F Replacing writers and translators with AI, then telling hiring managers to "prove AI can't do your job." Al does a full U-turn live on air — from "AI's here, get on with it" to a hard F. The flex was the mistake.
6. 200 UK Companies Go Four-Day Week — Grade: A+ Over 5,000 workers, permanently on a four-day week. Retention up, attrition down 57%, and 15% of employees said no amount of money would tempt them back to five days. A's across the board.
🍷 The Verdict
The four-day week wins the day. Jamie Dimon loses it. And somewhere in between, we learn that how you make a decision matters as much as the decision itself — whether that's about AI, hybrid work, or a marketing campaign.
📬 Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al and I've got a strange voice today. Hang on, let me do that again. My name is Al and I'm a business owner. I don't know what happened there. Sorry.
Leanne ElliottAmp up the energy, Al.
Al ElliottYeah, come on. Yeah, my name's Al and Jesus, I've just banged my microphone.
Leanne ElliottUm, and we're here to help you simplify science and work.
Al ElliottHello, Truth.
Leanne ElliottHi.
Al ElliottHi, hi, hi. Yeah, you probably guessed by straight away that this is not the most professional episode we've done. None of our episodes apart from the ones with guests are particularly professional, but what we do on a Tuesday in August, we tend to try and have August off. So on a Tuesday in August, we do a little bit loosey-goosey.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, if, if there was a video version of this, you'd see that we're both drinking a little glass of rosé wine.
Leanne ElliottYeah, what my friends call a paff.
Al ElliottWhich stands for?
Leanne ElliottPale as f—
Al ElliottThank you for helping me with my edit there by editing yourself.
Leanne ElliottNo problem.
Al ElliottWe did. So last, last week we had, uh, Nick Cote and John White. We were on their podcast Nerd Journey. So we gave you that. If you haven't gone to listen to part 2, it's out now. Uh, definitely go and listen to that. Week before that, we did Remote Work Roulette where we just said all the places that we've been and where you might want to live, might want to work. Then what else did we do for August?
Leanne ElliottAsk Old People.
Al ElliottAsk Old People, yes.
Leanne ElliottAsk Old People, we mourned the loss of AOL dial-up and dove into Reddit's Ask Old People feed to answer some questions. And the first week, what did we do the first week?
Al ElliottI think that might have been remote.
Leanne ElliottOh, the F-Up Files.
Al ElliottThe F-Up Files, yes.
Leanne ElliottYeah, our own personal and career disasters. It's what we're calling our Summer Sessions. And this is kind of our last Summer Session really, because next Tuesday, while we're not quite back to This Week in Work, We are talking a bit more seriously about what, what does the next 3, 4 months look like? I daren't say Q4, but you know, we're all thinking it. And what you might be able to do in terms of people and culture in that time to have an impact.
Al ElliottWell, you will be able to do something because you've got, all right, from like the second week in December, yeah, not really much point in doing anything. Everyone's in a really good mood anyway. But when people come back from holiday or vacation, if you're from across the pond, then they're probably in quite good moods. So it's probably a good time to say, guys, shall we, shall we try continue the joy? If you've listened to last— you haven't listened to last Thursday's episode, we had Joel Zeff on talking about, uh, sorry, Joel Zeff, sorry, talking about bringing joy to the workplace. So go and listen to that. But anyway, Leanne, what are we doing today?
Leanne ElliottToday we are going to be ranking the wildest workplace stories of 2025 so far.
Al ElliottThis is going to be fun.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so regular listeners will know that This Week in Work, our normal Tuesday format, has a news roundup, and you know it's my favourite time of the week and I miss it. So I've brought some news back into my life. So I've pulled together the biggest headlines so far this year. Some are funny, some are shocking, some are really just sad-making.
Al ElliottSo I think this is how Leanne's told me it's gonna work, is basically we've got 7 stories. I've not seen them, Leanne has, but like 7 stories. We'll pick one at random, and then Leanne's gonna read out the recap, or I'll read out the recap so you know what's happened, and then we're gonna talk about it. And at that point, you can decide whether you want to stop the podcast or keep going.
Leanne ElliottYeah, but if you do want to keep going, for each story, we're going to give it a grade. So, a bit like a school report card for Americans, or like you're getting your A-level GCSE results. A+ means it's brilliant for workplace culture. F means total fail. How can you even look at yourself in the mirror? How do you sleep at night? Bad.
Al ElliottAs we go, we're going to ask the same sort of questions like, what does this tell us about work in 2025? Or is this progress, or are we sliding backwards? And obviously, will people still care about this story in 5 years' time?
Leanne ElliottYeah, and that's it. Really nice and simple headlines, bit of context, and then our take. It might be spicy, it might be indifferent. Let's see. Al.
Al ElliottRight. Okay. So after this very short break, we'll look at story number 1, chosen by random. Leah, give us a random number.
Leanne ElliottI thought we were going to the break first.
Al ElliottI know, but I'm building a curiosity. I'm opening a curiosity hook. 4.
Leanne Elliott4.
Al ElliottSo there you go. If you want to know what 4 is, join us after the break. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform. Every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. 4. That's the number you chose, 4.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So as I chose it, do you want to read it out?
Al ElliottI'll read it. So pulling it out of the hat, actually clicking on the tab on Google So, Soham Parekh working for startups. This is brilliant. Okay, so this is what happened, unless you haven't heard of him. As I tell you the story, you probably will recognize it. On July 2nd, Playground AI founder Suhail Doshi posted a viral warning on X. That's Twitter for us boomers. PSA, public service announcement. There's a guy named Soham Parekh who works at 3 or 4 startups at the same time. He's been preying on YC companies. Now, this post got 20 million views and prompted dozens of other founders to share identical experiences. A database created on July the 4th revealed— I see, I kind of like this guy— revealed Parekh had had 19 jobs since 2021, with 5 starting in just the previous month. On July the 5th, Parekh appeared on a podcast admitting to working 140 hours per week across multiple roles, claiming dire financial circumstances. Just to put that in context, I believe there's 160 hours in the week, 140 hours in the week. I can't remember.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, so despite the controversy, he He landed a new job at Darwin Studios. I didn't know that.
Leanne ElliottI did not know this.
Al ElliottOkay. So the reaction was the tech community split between calling him a scammer and admiring the audacity. I'm definitely falling for the latter of those two. It did create this broader discussion about remote work trust and hiring processes, with some worried about the impact on legitimate Indian remote workers. Shall we talk about that? Then we'll go to the question in a second.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottSo what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottIs this the same? Because I remember you telling a similar story. Is this the same dude that you told the story about?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo I thought in that you said that he wasn't actually doing the work, but he was doing the work.
Al ElliottWell, this is what I remember from the story, and this is the bit where the idea is kind of cool because people were saying he's a genius. People were saying he's absolutely brilliant. He's like a top-rate engineer, which is cool. However, what, what was happening was, um, shh, Bobby, I'm on, I'm on a podcast. That's our little dog scratching himself. Um, and, uh, and so what he did was he'd go in and say he'd get a full-time job. And then he came up with all these excuses, and one of them was like a drone hit his house, like a military drone hit his house. Then he was in hospital.
Leanne ElliottI mean, I'm not sure the timing of that, but I'm, I'm hoping it wasn't around that time.
Al ElliottNo, no, no. And, um, and also because he lived in India, then he said he'd got himself, um, a permit to live in the US, but he hadn't. So it's the point here where I'm slightly disappointed because if he was able to hold down 3 jobs, for example, Mm-hmm. And do them all brilliantly. Mm-hmm. And he worked really, and he did, he did work 120 hours a week. Mm-hmm. But he did that for 3 years and he went great generational, not generational wealth, but decent amount of money. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. But it seemed like he was scamming a little bit.
Leanne ElliottYeah. There's a dude on YouTube who's getting a bit, a bit famous now. He's like, he does financial advice in a very angry way. Have you seen him? Mm-hmm. He has like 2 people, one person will sit down and basically call them twats and— Yeah. Yeah. But then help them get themselves outta debt and stuff.
Al ElliottLike a very angry Dave Ramsey.
Leanne ElliottYeah, well, he, he has admitted himself on somebody else's podcast that he got to that point of being able to go self-employed because he worked 2 jobs remotely, um, and took the salary. But his point was that he looked through his contract, there was nothing in there to say that he couldn't. He hit all the performance indicators he was meant to. Nobody knew the difference. In that circumstance, my only question mark around what we'd call overemployment Excuse me, is whether you are taking that opportunity away from somebody else. And in such a tough job market, that is problematic.
Al ElliottI think I'm gonna jump in there and say, if you are taking that job opportunity from someone else because you are not doing the work, yes. If you've taken the opportunity from someone else because you are better and you can still, only doing 50% of your time, you can still do a better job than someone who spent 100% of the time, I'd say that's natural selection. So, I'd say that's meritocracy at its very best. So, I think that I agree with you. If this person's taken a role and is not doing the work, then they're taking away from someone else. If they've taken the role and they are doing the work and they just so happen to do 2 at the same time, tough.
Leanne ElliottI think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, on the nuance of that one. I think overemployment is definitely a thing, isn't it? Whether it's with multiple organizations, whether you're a contract with many contracts, whether you've got a couple of side hustles going alongside your full-time job. It's a thing. It's just the way it is because people need money, man. Like, it's, it's really tough out there, isn't it, at the minute with continued inflation and everything else. I, in terms of rating this as a, as a problem, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go, it's kind of like D. So it's a bit, it's a bit poor. It's a bit problematic. And I think the main problem comes from taking opportunities away from other people.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd potentially ruining remote work for everybody else because the headlines that entrepreneurs and business owners and leaders are picking up on is that people can't be trusted to work remotely because they'll do things like this. And I think that's probably the minority. And the fact that he's gone viral and is in the news and all over podcasts across the world is because it's a fairly rare thing in terms of holding down multiple high-paid jobs with.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottTech startups. I'm sure everyone's got a side hustle.
Al ElliottYeah. And I think a lot of companies do encourage— we had Becky on recently who encourages side hustles at her digital agency. Um, but yeah, look, I, I can't help but admire the guy. I just think where it fell down was he didn't do what he was paid to do. And if he'd delivered everything he was paid to do, then I'd be like, guys, you've got no redress, even if it is against the terms of his contract. You know, I'm like, well, we've all done stuff which is against the terms of our contract, haven't we? Maybe not you.
Leanne ElliottSpeak for yourself.
Al ElliottI know I definitely have.
Leanne ElliottSo what are you gonna give it? I gave it a D. It sounds like you're going a bit higher.
Al ElliottYeah, I'm gonna go with C. I'm gonna give it a C. Now just remind me, C, am I, am I, what am I grading here? Because I'm a bit confused by the question.
Leanne ElliottJust like how, how, how good is it or bad for it for work in general workplace culture?
Al ElliottImpact has it had on workplace culture?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Or in terms of stories like this and the impact they might have.
Al ElliottAh, no, I think no, in that case then I'd go with D. Because it's had a negative impact on— if it gets like 10% of people who were slightly for work, remote work, and now they're like, oh no, we're not gonna do remote work because of that guy. I remember that guy. Then I think it's bad for remote work.
Leanne ElliottOkay. That's a D then.
Al ElliottThat's a D.
Leanne ElliottSorry, dude.
Al ElliottWow. Okay. Lee, your turn to Read the story, my turn to pick the number.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottI'm gonna go with number 6, please.
Leanne ElliottNumber 6. Ooh, this is a fairly recent one. I'm not sure you would've, this would've entered your world. Let's see. Sydney Sweeney's jeans or jeans American Eagle ads.
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So, this was July, so about a month ago. So, what happened if you haven't heard of it? American Eagle, which is a clothing brand in the US, launched their fall autumn campaign featuring Sydney Sweeney. She's a very famous one from, I wanna say Euphoria.
Al ElliottI don't know where she's from. I've just seen, I've seen a lot of her.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottBoth a lot of her and also a fair amount of her.
Leanne ElliottYes, she is, she is famous for many reasons. Um, so the, the tagline of the campaign was Sydney Sweeney has great jeans, J-E-A-N-S. This campaign then included a video where Sydney Sweeney says genes, G-E-N-E-S, are passed down from parents to offspring, often determining traits like hair color, personality, Or even eye colour. My genes are blue. While the camera then pans to her blue eyes. You might think this is harmless. Well, criticism began very swiftly on TikTok and X, with users calling it eugenics propaganda due to the blonde, blue-eyed actress discussing good genes. A few days later, a White House spokesperson got involved.
Al ElliottOf course they did. Yeah, that's what we need.
Leanne ElliottThey, they, I believe that Donald Trump is a big fan of Sydney Sweeney, and I cannot imagine for why. Um, but, but this White House spokesperson called the backlash cancel culture run amok, um, and Trump went on to praise both Sweeney and the ad campaign, leading to a 23% stock rise on August 5th. Um, so yeah, in terms of the reaction, it generated over 50 million readers across 3,000 news articles, 18 times more normal mention volume for the brand. Critics argued it echoed historical eugenics messaging, while supporters praised it as pushback against woke Marketing. So the question is, Al, is this calculated corporate strategy during a DEI backlash that delivered massive results, or is it harmful messaging that echoes historical eugenics and should have been caught?
Al ElliottWell, I think it's both, and I'll tell you for why. I think that it is harmless, um, and I think it is deliberate because I think the agency who did this is genius because they've gone, do you know what they could do? Jeans is like jeans. And once we did a jeans thing, once American Eagle was like, we can't do that. And they're like, yeah, you can.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd now they've got millions, potentially hundreds of millions of pounds worth of earned media from it. Is that the right term? Earned media? Basically not paid for media. Everyone's talking about it. We're talking about it 3 months, 2 months later. I've seen so much stuff on there. And also, this is right. Here's a boomer. Here's a boomer account that's probably gonna get me canceled. I think there are a lot of people in the world where there's not a whole lot going on in their life and they're just looking around and they cannot wait to find something to be outraged about. And they saw this and they went, it doesn't even apply to me, but I'm outraged. And I think that's what's happened. And I think there are a few people who've gone, yeah, is this like a sort of a Nazi thing? Can we say Nazi? I don't know how to believe that.
Leanne ElliottYou just did.
Al ElliottYou just did. Is this like, is it like you said, um, This is all about blonde hair, blue eyes. Man, I think just there's bigger things to worry about than a pair of fricking jeans. What do you think?
Leanne ElliottOh, we are so gonna get cancelled for that.
Al ElliottYeah, well, I've said it, not you.
Leanne ElliottI, oh, do you know what I think it is? I think it is people's window of tolerance for this level of BS has shrunk down massively because we're seeing such a rollback in human rights in terms of diversity and equity and various minority groups, including women, and the rollback of women's health and DEI initiatives in organisations and the rise of racism and hate crimes. And it's anything that is potentially fanning the flames of this and causing more divide. I think understandably people are speaking up and going, this seems a little bit problematic. Would this have been as problematic 3 years ago? Maybe not. Maybe not. Also, wouldn't it have been as effective 3 years ago? And that's what irritates me about marketers. Like, we're all angry. Of course we're all angry. We're frustrated. We're feeling a bit segregated and we're feeling a divide and we're feeling a bit sensitive and vulnerable. And you're going to poke that bear to make some money. Of course you are, because that's what works. That's the behavioral science behind it all. But man, if you used your powers for good, what a world.
Al ElliottBut you can't use your powers for good. This is the problem, is that if you want to affect change and marketers want to affect change, they want people to move to American Eagle brand to buy their jeans, then they've got 2 options. They go, American Eagle jeans are really nice. Or they go, Sydney Sweeney's got great jeans. Maybe, maybe it's a, you know, I don't know what the alternative, you know, what were they trying to say? But anyway, my point is, They had to go down this route. Otherwise it's just like, oh, we got nice jeans. You should maybe go and buy some. They didn't have to go down the route, but it's— I admire it. I think it's a bold advertising campaign. I think it was intentionally meant to fan flames. And I think that, um, there's probably some 1% of the complaints are probably genuine and have got genuine points behind them. I am sorry, but my personal— and this is, this is not the opinion of the podcast or Leanne, but my personal opinion is.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliott99% of people just saw something to get outraged about and went, yeah, great. Right. Do you remember back about 15 years ago on Radio 2 where Russell Brand, although he's no, no longer a good guy, Russell Brand and who was the other guy?
Leanne ElliottOh yeah.
Al ElliottAnd they, um, it was really famous. Who was it? What's he called? Jonathan Wass.
Leanne ElliottGranddaughter or something.
Al ElliottPhoned someone's granddaughter and did something weird, said some horrible stuff.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And bearing in mind, Russell Brand has now been in court for rape and sexual assault charges. So.
Al ElliottYeah. So I think that maybe, yeah, maybe Russell Brand was— anyway, that's a different conversation. My point was that when— Leanne's looking at me going, where the hell are you going with this, Al? The point was that the BBC got about 200 complaints for when that went out. And then when it hit the papers the next morning, then they got about 20,000 complaints. Now, those people hadn't heard the original stuff. They were just like, this is terrible, right? I'm gonna go and complain about it. And it's like, Really?
Leanne ElliottFair enough. But equally, I think there's an element of when these things hit the news or hit social media, an element of education as to why this is problematic.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottFor example, you spoke to Enid O'Rourke not so long ago and have now had a complete rethink about how you describe people, where you'll catch yourself, you go, oh, I met this incredible woman today, and you're like, wait a minute, why did I misgender them? I met this incredible person today, let me tell you about them. I think there's a— of course there is a balance So we can continue to have conversations and be creative and empathize and learn more about each other in an open, honest way that doesn't feel like we're having to tiptoe or walk on eggshells. Equally, I just think any messaging that causes more divide in the, for the sake only of infamy and profit doesn't sit nicely with me.
Al ElliottFair enough. So, on a scale of A to F, what are you giving it?
Leanne ElliottUm, another D. I think it, it, it, you know what, it reveals deeper problems in our culture, in our organizational life, in our leadership. Um, I don't think it's necessarily the ad campaign. I think it's how it was done, the timing of it, and, and how people will now also use it as another kind of kind of marking point to go, oh, well, all this DEI stuff is just complete BS because do you remember how Trump backed up the Sydney Sweeney campaign and he said it was fine and she was just selling jeans? So it's the creep that makes me uncomfortable. It normalizes these types of, of divisions and segregations, and that I'm not down for.
Al ElliottFair enough. Fair enough. Well, my instinct is to give it a C. Because I don't think it's, I don't think it's made work life better in any way, but I also don't genuinely don't believe it's made life work, work life much worse. So I'm going to go with C, which stands for, which also is the word cancel starts with C. So yeah, Leanne, have we got time for one more before a break or should we go to a break?
Leanne ElliottLet's go to a break.
Al ElliottOkay, we'll see you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back. I'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. If you've just joined us, you rebel, you're my kind of person. This is what we're doing. We're taking some news stories from over the past, um, past 8 months or so. We're recapping and we're having a little bit of a say on how they might have impacted workplace culture, organisational life. So far, we've heard about, uh, the Indian, um, guy who had 1,200 jobs and lied about doing them all. and Sydney Sweeney, um, for that Jeans campaign. So let's go on to the next one. Al, do you want to— is it your turn to pick a number? Is it mine?
Al ElliottMy turn. I will go with, um, number 2.
Leanne ElliottNumber 2.
Al ElliottAnd what, what was the number? What was it? What, what, what are you laughing at?
Leanne ElliottWhat number 2 is.
Al ElliottIs it— what, as in like— no, no, I'm being childish. What was the previous number we did? Was it 6?
Leanne ElliottUm, we did 4 and 6. Yeah.
Al ElliottGot it.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottSo go on. What? Tell me.
Leanne ElliottJamie Dimon's work from home rant.
Al ElliottThis is funny.
Leanne ElliottSo this takes us back to February 2025. JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon lost it at a town hall in Ohio when an employee asked about a petition signed by over 1,000 staff requesting hybrid work policies. So, Mr. Dimon exploded, and I will beat myself out. He said, quote, don't waste time on it. I don't care how many people sign that effing petition. Don't give me the S that work from home Friday works. Um, he went on to continue ranting about Zoom calls. A lot of you were on the effing Zoom doing the following, looking at your mail, sending texts to each other about what an a-hole the other person is.
Al ElliottThat's the beauty. That's, that's why I like those kind of Zoom calls, because I can text you and go, this person's a bit of a knob, isn't he?
Leanne ElliottYeah. So anyway, um, that audio leaked, um, in February, went viral pretty much immediately. About a week later, Jamie Dimon did apologize for language but doubled down on his return to office policy. Um, so there you go. Um, some reactions said it was support for authentic leadership. Um, critic— critic—
Al ElliottCome on, you can do this.
Leanne ElliottThe critic said it was a boomer CEO meltdown.
Al ElliottWell, it was.
Leanne ElliottAnd business media covered it pretty extensively as an example of generational workplace divide. We have talked about this on the podcast before, Al. Where do you now— how have you reflected on Mr. Dimon's behaviour?
Al ElliottWell, to quote, uh, to quote Mad Men, I didn't think about him at all. Uh, I think Do you know what? If that's his opinion, that's fine. That's his opinion. He didn't go to the newspaper. He didn't go on TV and give that opinion. He gave it on a relatively private, or albeit public, albeit company, but a relatively private call. Someone's taken that and they've just played it and released it as like, this is what Jamie Dimon thinks of this. So first of all, that could be outta context. I don't think it is, but it's possibly when this is what some people say about remote work. Remote work is shit. And he went back and go, but of course I think it's great. Now, I don't think he did do that at all.
Leanne ElliottI think we know he didn't do that.
Al ElliottBut it's possible. But still, look, this, this is this guy's opinion. He is far more successful than you and I are ever gonna be. He earns far more money than you and I are ever gonna earn, and than the majority of people in the world are gonna earn. If he wants to do it that way, let him do it that way. I don't think it's fair. I wouldn't do it in my company. I wouldn't do it in his position. But do you know what? That's his company. Well, not his company, but he's the, he's the currently presiding over it. Let him do it. What do you think?
Leanne ElliottI think that it's another example of it's not about the business decision you've made, it's about how that decision is executed. There is no need to be effing and blinding on a town hall with 1,000 staff. What message does that give in terms of the environment you're creating? It's very, it's very Dictator-like. It's very hierarchical.
Al ElliottDictatorial.
Leanne ElliottYes, exactly. It's just, it's old-fashioned. It's treating your, your people like children. Clearly, this is a cultural, cultural issue that's been going on for a while where they've treated their people like children. So they are acting out in ways that might seem, um, uncivil in a workplace in terms of not engaging in important Meeting, perhaps. Um, it— do you know what? The remote, hybrid, in-office, whatever its context, and culture exists independent of that context. This for me isn't about work from home, it's about control. And it's from— it's coming from somebody who feels it's slipping because everything he knew, the world that he built his success on, is changing at such a pace that he is scared about what that means for him.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo that for me is his fear driving a state of emotional dysregulation that's directly impacting his people and his business. Not cool.
Al ElliottFair enough. No, I mean, I don't think it's cool. And I think also because we're very bullish on the whole remote work thing. So I think it is kind of a little bit harmful because those people, but I think all it's doing is finding those people who are on the fence and going, I'm not sure to do remote work. And they go, I follow Jamie Dimon. Okay, well, if he thinks that, I'll think the same. Or it's just ammunition for those people who are already on the other side of the fence, on the remote work is rubbish side of the fence, and it's just giving them ammunition to go, told you I was wrong, told you I was right, told you I was right, you're wrong, I'm right. For those people who love remote work and are very happy with their staff to do remote work, I don't think it's gonna make a slightest bit of difference to them. So I think it's like a sort of a swing state, as they call it, don't they, in the American and UK elections. It's only really affecting like maybe the 10 or 15% people who are still collecting in for collecting opinions and deciding whether to go, whether they can do remote work or not. So.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Like I said, it's not about, it's not about remote or in office. It's not even about the business decision made. It's how it's being handled. And again, examples of this very aggressive leadership style being normalized to the point where some people are praising it as authentic leadership. That for me is hugely problematic.
Al ElliottThat, to be fair, that's a very, very good point. But then having said that, the people who are praising it are probably the people who want to be like him. Um, they're not, you know, you're not going to get the, the, the, the John Amici of the world praising it. John Amici of the world are going to go, this is a load of rubbish. Don't be doing that. That's total rubbish. So, right. I agree that I think it's, it wasn't cool the way The way he spoke, what he said. Um, I agree that it's a very bad, um, template for management, but I also maintain that anyone under the age of 35 would look at that and go, well, what an arse. They're not going to look at that and go, oh, maybe I should be more, more, more dominant.
Leanne ElliottI don't know. Love the manosphere, Andrew Tate, the rise of, of this type of more toxic masculinity on social media. I don't think it is bound to an older age group anymore.
Al ElliottMaybe. Yeah. Well, in that case, that might change my, change my score. So maybe I'm going to give this an F.
Leanne ElliottF. Hard F.
Al ElliottHard F. Oh dear. Okay. Well, there you go. We look forward to your letters. Lee, we've not chosen an odd number yet.
Leanne ElliottOkay, then I will go for number 5.
Al ElliottNumber 5. So, story number 5 is You did something. Leanne's got a great newsletter called LinkedIn AF. And if you're under the age of 35, you know what AF stands for. And it comes out every Friday and it's really, really good. She finds like, you know, the best comments on LinkedIn and she finds the funniest things. There was one guy and I can't remember who it was who said something about going to a Coldplay concert with your CMO. And then the most embarrassing thing was people know you're going to a Coldplay concert. This is what we're talking about. You will know what we're talking about here. You've got to. July 16th, Andy Byrom, CEO of Astronomer, $1.3 million— no, $1.3 billion with a B— billion tech company. He went to, he went to a Coldplay concert with Kristen Cabot. This is the worst bit. The company's chief people officer. Kiss cam arrived on them, obviously thinking these 2 couple canoodling. Little bit older. Isn't that nice PR? Look how lovely people, people, old people are still in love. And they were like, shit! And dived out and then just hilarity ensued and their world blew up. Obviously, Byron resigned. Cabot resigned a few days later. But there was, it was just all over social media for about 3 days, wasn't it?
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottThe bit that I don't remember many people talking about was As the camera zoomed in and caught these people who, who had both, I dunno if I told you this, but both having affairs. I know you know that. Both having affairs with, with each other. Then there was the, it was Christine's, um, second in command, the chief people officer, but she was probably head of HR or something, was she? She was there and had the biggest shit-eating grin on her face.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. That's the story.
Al ElliottThat's the story I wanna hear.
Leanne ElliottIce-fired hair. Oh, it's just, it's just so awful in so many ways. It's so awful, cringeworthy awful, because it's initially you're kind of like, you absolute idiots being so like PDA when you're having an affair. You're both married, you're with people from the company.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottThen you get, you know, then you get put on the big screen and then you hide. You could have even styled it out potentially and not got the attention because they hid. So Chris Martin went, well, either you're really shy or you're having an affair. If they'd have just kind of released each other and waved and gone like, ah, it probably would have moved on and maybe would have got picked up, maybe not. I don't think it'd be as big as it was.
Al ElliottNo, no.
Leanne ElliottSo then, so that's also, on one hand it's like, fools, what did you expect? But then on the other—
Al ElliottYou know nothing about having an affair.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I know. Come on now, this is like Affair 101.
Al ElliottApparently he's, he's had this, this isn't his first rodeo either.
Leanne ElliottRight, I bet it isn't. I bet it isn't.
Al ElliottSorry, carry on.
Leanne ElliottThen you think about the dynamics of, of it being like the workplace CEO, head of people, is, oh, oh, um, it couldn't have been the finance person, could it? So that's, that's, that's kind of then makes it worse. And then it's the thing that it's like these 2 poor people, their careers, man, that's, that's hard to recover from. They're so well— because it's in Australia as well, isn't it? And I've worked a lot in Australia with Senior-level professionals. It's a small fricking world in terms of— were they based in Sydney, was it? Or Melbourne? Or wherever they are, that professional world is going to be very small. And you're world famous at this point. Like, people are going to know who you are. And then their families and how all that's been ruined. So I kind of went from my whole thing was like, fools, to, oh, that's really bad for, for kind of workplaces, to these poor people and their families. How are you gonna recover from that in a way that is even manageable? I, I hope they're okay because that is traumatic.
Al ElliottWell, you're kind of taking the wind outta my comedy sails here a little bit, 'cause you're quite right. Yes, that is pretty, pretty tragic. Um, not great for anyone. I would say we're gonna get some emails from Down Under shortly. I would say that a man who has an affair and then gets put on the big screen is famous around the world. Actually might not do as badly in Australia as you thought, as you might think. Um, some of the people we've, some of the companies we've dealt with in Australia, they're slightly, if I say 1970s sort of mindset, maybe, maybe.
Leanne ElliottI think regardless of, I'm not sure I'd go there with Australia. I don't think it is quite that, but I think you're right. He'll feel, he'll fare better than she will.
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottWithout a doubt. She's, she's Ruined. And that's not fair and it's not right, but oh, how do you, how do you come back from that when you're ahead of people?
Al ElliottThat's the worst bit, isn't it? I wonder, because I heard that the, that the other woman who was with her, the one who did the big grin, they've been working together for a while. And I wonder if that other woman, just when she saw the kiss cam, went, brilliant, I'm chief of chief people officer now. Whether that's what went through her head, like, I've got it, I'm done.
Leanne ElliottI don't know. You can't know, can you, how calculated that, that was, or how in the moment that was. It could be that she's been going on to her colleague for ages, this isn't right, it needs to stop, can't believe you've got the audacity to come here, this is really dangerous, blah blah, that then it happens and she's been like, well, that's karma. Or whether she's tried to style it out and been like, oh, we're just laughing here, right? We're just like—
Al ElliottOh man.
Leanne ElliottYou don't, you don't know. I don't— people are always quick to make women Villains, aren't they, in terms of like, mwahaha, this is my plan all along. And I don't, I'm not sure that was the case.
Al ElliottI thought really genuinely wasn't, it wasn't meant anything to do about being a woman. And we're going self-referential, self-referential here. It was about being a person. Um, and she was just looking very happy. But then the other thing is perhaps she just saw herself on the big screen, went, I'm on the big screen.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I'm on telly.
Al ElliottWhich always makes me laugh when people are on the screen and then they point at, point at the screen, not the camera.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd they're like, no, no, that's not where the camera is. The camera's over there because, um, Just, did you see the advert that Astronomer put out a few years later?
Leanne ElliottYeah, with Gwyneth Paltrow. You talk about this.
Al ElliottReally simply, Gwyneth Paltrow did a little advert for Astronomer. Gwyneth Paltrow is the ex of Chris Martin from Coldplay. Was there any kind of affair thing going on there or not?
Leanne ElliottI don't believe so. They consciously uncoupled, did they not?
Al ElliottSorry, I just got sick in my mouth. Yeah. So she did this thing and it was quite funny, but at the same time might have been in poor taste. But then also at the same time, Maybe the guys, the media guys there were in law frenzy going, we have to do something. And someone went, get Gwyneth on the line.
Leanne ElliottYeah. But the worst thing was as well, when was it Andy, what's his surname again?
Al ElliottBurnham?
Leanne ElliottBurnham.
Al ElliottAndy Burnham. No, right, Byron. Sorry. Andy Burnham's the Manchester mayor.
Leanne ElliottHe's nothing to do with it. Um, he released a statement saying that it said, or they released a joint statement saying that it was, they should have had to sign a release form or permission for the, for the camera to go on them or something. Absolute nonsense and not focusing on the right thing to the point where then The next Coldplay concert went viral, a clip from that of Chris Martin saying, so what we're going to do now is put people randomly from the crowd on the big screen. If you don't want that, or if you're here with somebody you shouldn't be, then you might want to stop doing whatever it is. And it's like, and that went viral. It's like, you're making it worse.
Al ElliottYep. Yep. You're digging a hole and it's not going well. So, so in terms of for what this has done for workplace culture, we've got nothing above a D so far. I don't, I can't imagine this is gonna be above a D. Leanne, what are you scoring it?
Leanne ElliottOh, do you know what? I think I'm gonna be fairly, 'cause I don't think it's as bad as everything else we've seen. I mean, it's really not great.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut at the same time, it's 2 consenting adults entering, entering a relationship that is ill-advised, but nobody, nothing illegal is happening here.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottUm, I think it's average. I think, I think there's some bad, which is everything we've talked about. I think maybe there's some good in terms of, I wonder how many affairs in the workplace have since Broken up. Yeah. Or how many people might be a bit more mindful about entering a relationship with their subordinate in the future. I'd hope there's some lessons learned from this. So I'm gonna go average, C.
Al ElliottI'm gonna go B.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottBecause from what you've just said there, I was originally gonna go C as well, but I'm gonna go B, even possibly A, because of those reasons you just said there. It's made— it hopefully will make some people rethink what, what, how they're doing things at work and, um, Maybe actually rethink it so they can hide it better, but still, yeah. No, I'm with you, B. B, I'm speed. That's why I'm sticking with B.
Leanne ElliottSo, B, solid, positive overall, not without its flaws.
Al ElliottYes. Okay. Talking of B, the number 3 rhymes with B and looks a little bit like a bee without a back. So, will you tell me story number 3?
Leanne ElliottI will. Number 3, Duolingo's AI-first revolution.
Al ElliottOh, I don't know this, I don't think.
Leanne ElliottOh, you do.
Al ElliottDo I?
Leanne ElliottI'm sure you do. So, this has kind of been happening all year. So, Duolingo, you know, the app like you learn different languages on, their CEO, Luis von Ahn, announced that the company would gradually stop using contractors to do work that AI can handle and become AI-first. So, one of the first big organisations to really come out and say, make this claim, they're going to be AI-first. So, Duolingo has already replaced 100 workers, primarily writers and translators, Who create all the kind of quizzes and learning materials that the company is very well known for. This actually followed earlier cuts in January 2024, when Duolingo cut 10% of its contractor workforce, again, as the company shifted content creation to AI. So, the CEO, von Ahn, said teams must prove they can't automate work before hiring, and candidates' AI facility will be evaluated during hiring.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo, basically what they're saying is that if I'm a hiring manager and I want to make a hire, prove that AI can't do it before I give you that budget. A former worker said that the AI output is very boring. Duolingo has always been known as a very fun brand, very quirky, about, yeah, just kind of being that lovely app, isn't it, that helps people learn and engage. But it has received criticism for some mistakes coming out currently.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottOr recently.
Al ElliottIn the content.
Leanne ElliottIn the content, yeah. Which, after this criticism, again, the CEO walked back on his comments and said that, I do not see AI as replacing what our employees do, but potentially augmenting it. So, yeah, there was a journalist, Brian Merchant, who pointed to this as part of an AI jobs crisis. That's a series of management decisions being made by executives seeking to cut labor costs. And other users have criticised the company online, with many threatening to delete the app over quality concerns and ethical issues. So yeah, is it an honest innovation, Al? Is it about scaling education globally through the inevitable use of AI, or is it corporate greed destroying the creative job industry? Thoughts?
Al ElliottI don't think that's very particularly creative to translate something. Oh, I think, I think you just translate something. I think if they were writing stories, Then that's creative. But no. So no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna class that as creative. Do you know what? There's, have you seen this?
Leanne ElliottWhat level have you got up to on Duolingo though? 'Cause I'll be honest, I've not really got past the kind of general quizzes. Does it get a bit more complex as it goes on?
Al ElliottBuenos días. ¿Dónde está mi coche? That's about as far as I've got. But do you know what? What's funny about this? When I saw this, I do remember this story now. And there's a meme that you see quite often, like these sort of like cheeseburger or whatever you see these websites and it says, me going to bed at 2 AM. And then it's just got, it's got the Duolingo owl or whatever it's called thing going, let's review your mistakes. And I like the idea that whether this CEO, that he's basically someone's done memes about him going, let's review your mistakes without outsourcing to AI. Look, I'm going to be really—
Leanne ElliottNot surprising.
Al ElliottI don't know what I've been drinking today, but I'm really grumpy today. AI's here. Just get on with it. So AI took their jobs. So what? Boo-hoo. That's very sad for the individual people. But from an actual, like, generally— Leanne's looking at me going, come on, Al, pull it, rein it in. My point is this.
Leanne ElliottI can replace Al. Cancel him, not me, okay?
Al ElliottBasically, you can still say with AI and without, because that's the way my name is. Look, the point is AI's coming for our jobs. AI will take our jobs. If you've ever gone to NotebookLM, I've been listening to podcasts on NotebookLM that they've been creating from documents, and they're pretty good. They're like 60% good, 70% good, better than a lot of other podcasts I've been listening to. We're replaceable. Everyone's replaceable by AI. The point is, that was a shame. But then when, you know, the calculator came in, people who were adding up on a reckoning machine were replaced. It's just the way the progression— don't shoot the man from Duolingo. Be angry. I'm mixing metaphors. Don't blame the game. Don't blame the player, blame the game. Leigh, school me. I'm gonna get some wine from the fridge while you're schooling me.
Leanne ElliottNo, and you know what? This is, this is a difficult one actually, because I don't, I agree with you. I'm not, I'm not against AI coming into organizations. I think it's happening whether we like it or not. I think it's how it's done. The ethics of it really interests me, and I don't think there's many organizations out there that are really thinking about the ethical implications of this, the societal implications of this, because I think it is, yeah, this is huge. This is like, this is bigger than the internet, I think. This is, this is bigger in terms of its impact on employability. I just think it's a very bold claim at a fairly early stage of AI to make the bold declaration we are going to be AI first.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think from a marketing and branding perspective, that was the mistake because I think putting it so publicly, it's not necessarily about being innovative because you're not using a whole new AI thing that doesn't exist anymore. You're using an LLM probably, or something similar to translate stuff. So I don't think it's the flex that the CEO thought it would be.
Al ElliottOh no, I might have changed my mind slightly because I didn't know it was a flex.
Leanne ElliottWell, I dunno. It's like, why else would you come out and say it?
Al ElliottOh, you're changing something.
Leanne ElliottBecause if you're laying people off for it.
Al ElliottAh, now, yes. If he's come out and said, sorry, I've totally interrupted you there, but I won't.
Leanne ElliottCarry on. No, no, please, please.
Al ElliottMy point was that if he comes out and goes, yes, we're going AI first, and as a result, we've got rid of all these people and look, it's all AI. Aren't we clever?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottNo, you're a knob.
Leanne ElliottWell, that's what the story was then.
Al ElliottIn that case then, I'll either edit what I've just said out or I just won't bother. But yeah, I've changed my mind. And here we go. Do you know Jamie Dimon? They are going to use— people are going to use what I said about 5 minutes ago as my rant. This will be my Jamie Dimon moment of going, oh, well, boo-hoo, just get on with it. There you go. Kidding, I'm going to context. Anyway, Leanne, would you like another glass of wine?
Leanne ElliottYes, please. Yes, please. Yeah, I do know. I think we're both on the fence a bit on this one. I think it's how, again, it was how it was handled. The flex just didn't land right. The ethics of this are barely being figured out. They're barely being discussed, let alone figured out.
Al ElliottTrue.
Leanne ElliottThen we have kind of the element as well of, of kind of, this is fairly, a fairly new shift in transition. Legislation could potentially come out. I just think to be so bold about it when you're not an AI company. I don't think that's necessary, and I don't think it's gonna make people feel better for losing their jobs because that should— we're just going, it's not personal, I'm going AI first. Oh, well, that's all right then.
Al ElliottYou know, okay, I have done a U-turn. I have done a U-turn, and I'm gonna say this is an F. Oh, I'm gonna say it's an F because it's— this person is flexing. That's not cool. I think that— I don't think— so what I've changed my mind about is the story is about the, the CEO going, Yeah, but we're going AI first. Isn't that cool? Whereas if the story was about the CEO replacing humans with AI, it'd be like, well, of course, duh, we're all gonna do that. But if it's about that, then it's an F from me.
Leanne ElliottOkay. That was, that was a U-turn. Um, I, I think, I don't think, I'm not sure it's that bad. I think this is happening. I just think how that's been communicated to the world and how it's being managed within the organization is, is, Naive. So I think I'm going to give it a C. I think it's average. I think there's some good aspects because again, it's sparking conversation around people actually replacing people with AI and the problems that come with that, both in terms of quality, quality and ethics and how that brand is perceived within, within the market. Um, yeah, I, I, uh, yeah, it's very, it's average. It was, it was, yeah. Meh.
Al ElliottFair enough. Fair enough. Okay. So we've only got time for one more. We've got about 3 minutes left.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottI know. So which number are you going to choose?
Leanne ElliottLet me look at which one they are. Okay. These are ones that we— well, let me check. Do you want to hear about 200 UK companies going to a 4-day work week?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottOr do you want to hear about Qantas being hit with a record fine for illegal layoffs?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottA good news story to end.
Al ElliottA good news story. I like a good news story.
Leanne ElliottIt's the wine. Go on then, I'll let you read this one, Al.
Al ElliottOkay, let me find it. So, uh, number 1. So more than 200 UK companies have permanently adopted a 4-day working week with no pay loss, and this affects over 5,000 workers. 2 years after participating in a groundbreaking experiment, these companies chose to make the policy permanent. So the pilot was conducted by 4 Day Week Global. That's not Joe O'Connor, is it? That's the That's different, I think.
Leanne ElliottI think it is different, yeah.
Al ElliottYes, a 4-day work— no, no, not them. You want to go for Joe O'Connor. He's the guy who knows everything. So it made up of 24 companies, and Joe Ryle, the campaign director, said the 9-to-5, 5-day working week was invented 100 years ago and it's no longer fit for purpose. We are long overdue an update. Brilliant. Lovely. Basically what they're saying is this is the facts. The company's revenue stayed broadly the same despite the fact that nobody worked— well, people worked only 4 days. Uh, in fact, it rose by 1.4% on average. The staff leaving decreased by 57%, not 5.7%, 57%. 57%, guys.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al Elliott15% of employees said no amount of money would induce them to accept a 5-day schedule. The milestone comes as other companies' staff— other companies push staff back to offices, uh, like Jamie Dimon. Um, this is fabulous as far as I'm concerned. It's an A from me. There we go. Good night. We'll see you next week. Leanne, talk us through your thoughts.
Leanne ElliottYeah. A's, A's, A's across the board. It's, it's just made good sense. The key thing here, and I love that quote from Jo Wilder, campaign director, the 9 to 5, 5-day working week was invented 100 years ago and is no longer fit for purpose. It is no longer fit for purpose, especially in a world that is so fast-paced, so always on, so Blurry in terms of boundaries. I honestly don't think it's, it's sustainable. We're going to go back to the day where people have heart attacks at 35 because it's just too much. It's just too much. And as we can see, it's not good for businesses either. That's insane. So at 1.45% on average increase in revenue, so you're making more money even though you're paying people the same for them working less, very much in the bunny years because they're probably working much more productively.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIn the 4 days that they've got, staff retention or staff attrition, so people leaving, decreased by 57%.
Al ElliottThat is incredible. Have you ever seen anything that someone went, I implement this and my retention increases by whatever that would be? That's incredible.
Leanne ElliottNo. And that means you're looking at an employee engagement rate probably within kind of the 70-80% mark, which is unheard of in these times. And it's probably saving the organisation millions, depending on the size of it, um, over just one year. This is an absolute no-brainer for me, an absolute no-brainer. I heard, you know, I was talking to Audrey Tang the other day, who's been on the podcast, fabulous, very happy to call her one of my, my friends now. And I was talking to her and she was telling me about how Charles Darwin was misquoted, you know, survival of the fittest.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottShe said that was misquoted. It's survival of the best fit.
Al ElliottOh. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, it's not like survival of the fittest, ugh, hustle culture, bro, Jamie Dimon, we're the people that are gonna hustle until we're all dead. That's, you know, we're, we're the, we're the strongest that are gonna survive. Like, that's, no, it's those that, that are the best fit. So, I think it's the organisations that are savvy enough to go, no, we need to change this for our people, for our business, for our sustainability, are gonna, are gonna survive and thrive. Love it. No-brainer. 4-day work week is brilliant. We've done a couple of episodes on it, um, most recently with Jeanette Ramsden from the Curve Group. Um, and we also talked to one of the researchers behind the pilot.
Al ElliottYes, we did. We had Joe O'Connor on. Uh, we had Feri Cazzoni, who, if you're on LinkedIn and you know, and you know a digital PR guy from Romania, that's Feri. Funny guy. Uh, and then we had, um, I forget his name. He's got a really cool name like Bert Brizinti or something, or Brent Banks. But Bernard Banks, something Banks. We'll put the link in the show notes. I'm sorry about that, Mr. Banks. I've forgotten. But yeah, look, the quote here I think is really telling. Like Leanne said, the 5-day working week was invented 100 years ago. Yes, it was. But people went to work and they came home from work and there was no phones, there was no fax machine, there was no computers. 40 years ago, maybe you might bring home a laptop computer or have a computer at home. 30 years ago, you definitely had a laptop. 20 years ago, you probably had a phone or a BlackBerry. 10 years ago, you got an iPhone. Now you've got iPad, iPhone, laptop. Um, you know, it's got— this is— it's just not the same as it was even 30 years ago. So something has to change. Of course it does. And it— and like Leanne said, you'll work harder in those 4-day weeks and probably don't really resent doing a little extra on the Friday. If you— something comes up and you go, oh, do you know what I never did? I never sent that email to so-and-so. You don't go, screw them, they can wait till Monday. You'll go, oh, I've got 2 minutes. And then morning, have a breakfast, I'll do it.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. I have friends who work in, in 4-day work week organizations who say exactly that, that they'll be like, oh, I meant to send that email, I just log on quickly while I have my morning coffee. Ain't no thing. Oh, there's a really important client meeting. Oh, it's only an hour.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd they might get that time back in lieu, maybe not, but it's— who is gonna leave a 4-day work week with full pay?
Al ElliottUnless someone did a 3-day work week.
Leanne ElliottWell, that's— but baby steps, Al, baby steps.
Al ElliottUm, also, I think it was Rory Sutherland who said that, um, that everybody needs a 4-day workweek because you need on your weekend, you need a day to, to, to, to, to basically, um, socialize. You need a day to do all your tasks and a day to do nothing. Um, and so that's why you need it. So yeah, if you're interested in that, then definitely go and search on our, um, um, on our history for 4-day workweek. There's loads of stuff on there. Absolutely. Banks Bonitas.
Leanne ElliottThere you go.
Al ElliottThere we go. I knew you would come back to me. Loads and loads of stuff on there. Um, and also let us know, is there a shocking story that we haven't heard that Leanne hasn't included here? Bear in mind that Leanne's now a Linfluencer. She's now got hundreds of thousands of people following her on LinkedIn. Um, and also her first trolls, which is interesting. So it's obviously—
Leanne ElliottYeah, I got called ignorant and, um, arrogant. That was just me actually, wasn't it? Oh, that was this morning.
Al ElliottSorry. But you are neither of those things. And I think most people on LinkedIn love you. And do you know what? What's worse than hate is ambivalence. And, uh, that's true.
Leanne ElliottYes, that's true. It's the people that ghost me that I need to worry about.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottI got ghosted by somebody that's really surprising, and I'll tell you later who it was, but I'm like, I don't, I really want to talk about it because it's like, isn't this weird and funny? But equally, I don't because I would never betray the confidence of Of somebody.
Al ElliottBut, um, if you want to know who it was, then email me and I'll tell you.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And if you're interested in ghosting, we had, um, Associate Professor John Michalon recently talking about small talk and ghosting.
Al ElliottSo it was last Tuesday.
Leanne ElliottYeah. If you're being ghosted, don't worry. It means that the person ghosting you is more than likely psychopathic.
Al ElliottSo, uh, we have more things about psychopaths. We've got several episodes on psychopaths, including the one I keep talking about, the guest who is a psychopath and we've not actually disclosed who they are. Anyway, we're gonna go. We will see you. What day is it today? Tuesday. We will see you on Thursday, uh, for another episode. I forgot what it is, but, um, just, just turn up. Just turn up. It'll be good, or it won't.
Leanne ElliottLet's find out together.
Al ElliottLet's find out together. Right, let's go and drink our wine and say goodbye. Bye-bye.