Episode 22 · 17 January 2023 · 46:19

The Untold Heartbreak of Male Leaders: Conversations with Jim Young, Men's Burnout Coach

Featuring Jim Young

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There is an ocean of uncried male tears — intro
interview#podcast-intro #sponsor
Who is Jim Young?
interview#coaching #men #organizations
The clinical definition of burnout
interview#burnout #who-definition #clinical
What burnout feels like — the sense of dread
interview#burnout #symptoms #dread
Jim's own 7–8 year burnout experience
interview#burnout #personal-experience #long-term
The lowest moment — a complete shatter
interview#burnout #crisis #lowest-point
An ocean of uncried male tears
interview#men #emotions #mental-health
What does 'tough guy' really mean?
interview#masculinity #tough-guy #stereotypes
Undoing 10,000 years of social conditioning
interview#social-conditioning #gender-roles #change
Hustle culture and the 'badge of honour' burnout
interview#hustle-culture #burnout #work-culture
Shame — the deep undercurrent for men
interview#shame #men #mental-health
Expansive intimacy — a different way of looking at success
interview#success #intimacy #relationships
'My work is not actually about burnout'
interview#burnout #purpose #coaching
First step: talking about it
interview#communication #support #first-steps
The deadly F Word — 'I'm fine'
interview#denial #mental-health #language
The question Al should have asked — improv comedy
interview#improv #interview #humor
Leanne's reflections
interview#reflection #summary #takeaways

Show notes

The Untold Heartbreak of Male Leaders — with Jim Young

Guest: Jim Young — Men's Burnout Coach, founder of The Centered Coach, and author of Expansive Intimacy: How "Tough Guys" Defeat Burnout.

Toughen up. Be a man. Boys don't cry.

Centuries of social conditioning have created a stigma around men's mental health and burnout — and it's killing them. 75% of suicides are men. Suicide is the biggest cause of death among men under 50. Men experience higher rates of cancer, heart disease and addiction — physical health conditions associated with high-stress lifestyles.

In a break from the normal format, this episode is a conversation between co-host Al Elliott and Jim Young. Just two 40-something guys discussing uncried tears, burnout and being very f*cking far from ok. It's a conversation you've likely never heard before.

Jim joins Al for an honest, vulnerable conversation about men's mental health — what burnout actually looks like for men, the life-threatening risks of being a "tough guy," undoing 10,000 years of social conditioning, ego, shame, the deadly "F Word," and how intimacy can create sustainable success for you and your business.

Top 3 Takeaways

Burnout isn't just exhaustion — it's a shattering. Jim describes his lowest moment not as a slow decline but as a "complete shatter moment" where he realized he was very far from ok. Recognizing that moment for what it is — not weakness, but a signal — is the first step.
"I'm fine" is the most dangerous phrase in a man's vocabulary. The F Word men don't consider dangerous is fine. It shuts down every conversation before it can begin. Replacing "I'm fine" with "here's what's actually going on" is where healing starts.
Intimacy is the antidote to the tough-guy trap. Jim's book argues that sustainable success comes not from isolation and self-reliance, but from investing in intimate relationships across every area of life — including business. Revealing your emotional side isn't weakness; it's how connection is built.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Jim YoungThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Jim YoungNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Jim YoungYeah, there is an ocean of uncried male tears sitting out there.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, where we help you simplify the science of people. My name is Leanne, I'm a business psychologist, and welcome back. For our regular listeners, at this point you might be thinking, where's Al? Where's your, your co-host, your partner, your husband? Um, he is appearing in this episode, but this episode is a little bit different to what we've put out previously. As you may well know, our last couple of episodes have focused on burnout. And one of the discussions we had in those episodes is that burnout doesn't discriminate against age, role, social background, race, nationality, or gender. Burnout is a human issue. Mental health is a human issue. And as part of this series, Al interviewed Jim Young, who is a coach specializing in helping men and organizations defeat burnout. We had intended for Jim to form part of our burnout panel that you would have heard from on our last couple of episodes. And as part of the prep, I listened back to the interviews. And one evening I was making dinner and I thought, I'll listen to Al and Jim, I'll do some multitasking. 3 minutes into this interview, I stopped what I was doing, sat down on the sofa, and I listened to this interview end to end. It was like no conversation I'd heard before— 2 40-something men talking about men's mental health. And to pull a quote from this conversation The ocean of uncried male tears out there. So yeah, this conversation stopped me in my tracks, and I spoke to Al about making this a standalone episode. It felt like a message that deserved its own space. I'd be lying though if there wasn't a part of me that was slightly uncomfortable with it. I'm a woman, I'm a feminist, I'm passionate about Equality. And the last few years seem to have been a lot of attack on women's rights. 2016, the presidential election in the US, I will always remember those images of Hillary Clinton being stalked by Donald Trump in the live debates, the pussy-grabbing headlines that we saw. And that was a successful presidential campaign. Then last year, the rollback of Roe v. Wade, restricting access to abortion. In the US and potentially devastating implications for women's health. And then in the UK, probably the most high-profile story recently was the, the shocking story of Sarah Everand, um, who, if you aren't aware, she's a 33-year-old woman who was walking home and was kidnapped, raped, and murdered by Wayne Couzens, who was a serving police officer in the London Metropolitan Police. Really shocking and really brought into focus the ongoing fight to stop violence against women and girls. So yeah, I did wonder, will be questioned for promoting the male voice? Will we get eye rolls for giving a platform to a voice that is already the loudest in our society? As a psychologist, and I have experience in suicide prevention, I know the statistics. I know that the data shows us that women experience mental health challenges more than men. I also know that's a lie, because what those statistics are showing us is women are more likely to come forward, discuss their mental health challenges, and be diagnosed. The truth is the situation is that if we look at statistics more broadly, and these statistics are from the UK, but it's a similar picture across the world, men's mental and physical health is unacceptably poor. So the lie in the statistics is that women suffer more with mental health challenges, and the truth is that men are equally afflicted but feel less able to talk about it. There are many different studies out there that will show you similar results. I was reading one from the Priory Uh, which undertook a survey of 1,000 men. They found that 70% of men polled had suffered with common mental health symptoms such as anxiety, stress, or depression, but only 40% of men had ever spoken about it to anyone. 29% said they were too embarrassed to speak about it. 20% said there's a negative stigma around mental health in men. And 40% of men polled said it would take thoughts of suicide or self-harm to compel them to seek professional help. So yeah, the truth is that, that human rights are an important issue, and human rights against women, people of color, and other minorities have been under attack over the last few years. The truth is also that male mental health is a significant issue within our society, and I don't believe that male mental health and equal rights need to be conversations that are mutually exclusive. They can happen simultaneously. Equality starts with compassion, and compassion for me starts with tuning into other people in an open and kind way. So that's what I'd ask you to do as we listen to Al and Jim. And remember, you know, they're husbands, they're fathers, they're sons, brothers, bosses, business partners, friends. They're human.

Jim YoungMy name is Jim Young. I go by the Centered Coach, and I focus on helping men and organizations defeat burnout, With a bit of an interesting twist on how I do that. And I also wrote a book last year, this might tease into the twist. It's called Expansive Intimacy: How Tough Guys Defeat Burnout.

Jim YoungYeah, I'm so fascinated by, by you, because I've been reading all your bits and pieces, some of your posts, and they're so honest. And I just, I love that, because I'm going to come on to the likes of Joe Rogan and Dr. Jordan Peterson a bit later on and get your opinions on that. But before we crack into that, Just so we've all— we're all on the same page, can you define burnout for us?

Jim YoungI'll start with the clinical definition. The World Health Organization, after about 40 or 50 years of research into it, adopted it in the ICD-11 back in 2019. It's a workplace condition of unmanageable stress marked by exhaustion, cynicism, and a lack of professional efficacy. That's a lot of technical stuff. Think about chronic stress over a long period of time and what it does to you. And oftentimes framed in the workplace, we become grumpy, we become tired, we can't get shit done the way we used to. And that's kind of more of a layman's way of unpacking that same definition.

Jim YoungSo if, if someone's listening and some of those words might have resonated a little bit, then give us some— can you give us an example perhaps from your own life? Because what's interesting is I've noticed you've got on your LinkedIn actually a section on burnout on your actual sort of career, which is cool. So if someone's listening and they, they're hearing those words, then what other signs are there that they're either burnt out or on the route to burnout?

Jim YoungThere's a sense of dread that I think starts to creep in. That's one of the words that I used a lot when I look back at my own experience of burnout, is this feeling of like, oh my God, I gotta get up and do this again today. I gotta deal with these people, I gotta do this thing. I don't have the energy. I really just wish I could stay in bed or You know, go do anything else. So it's oftentimes the clients who come to me talk about like they're, they're stuck in the mud or they're like moving in wet cement. It's like everything just feels hard and heavy.

Jim YoungTell us about an experience you've had where you felt that.

Jim YoungSo my burnout experience lasted probably 7 or 8 years. I don't really know how to measure it. It was in and out of different phases of burnout. And I remember a period of time when I had just gotten separated from my then wife. I had 3 small kids, working a full-time job to provide for my family, and everything was going through the motions. I, you know, getting up in the morning, I remember living in this little sad dad condo that I had moved into after we sold our house and just, you know, walking down the stairs in the morning, you know, kind of shuffling down these carpeted stairs. As if it was walking through the Amazon forest. It was like, oh, I've gotta make all the lunches and I've gotta go into this job that is really taking a toll on me. And I don't see how this is ever gonna change. And it was just, I remember this in the middle of winter too. Like that was the worst of times. I'd wake up in the morning and there's snow outside too. It's like, are you kidding me? I gotta shovel my car out before I can even do all this stuff.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Jim YoungSo it was a really, really difficult time.

Jim YoungCan you pinpoint one particular moment that was like the lowest moment?

Jim YoungThe lowest moment for me wasn't a stuck-in-the-mud moment. It was a complete shatter moment where I just realized that I had pushed myself beyond my edge. And I was home alone, my kids were off with their mom. I had worked, you know, another long day. And I got home and I was just so depleted. I was dealing with crises at work. I was so exhausted and tired and I just fell apart. I just started sobbing and it was uncontrollable. I was like, am I gonna ever stop crying? Kind of lying face down on the floor in this same carpeted condo, just thinking like, how did I get here?

Jim YoungYeah. Totally relate to that. And there's, there's something also interesting about— I mean, I'm gonna ask you, I originally wanted to ask you, what's the difference between— is there a difference between men burning out, women burning out? But there's something you just said that resonates so deeply is you said you sobbed, and there's not many men who will publicly admit that they were sobbing uncontrollably.

Jim YoungYeah, yeah, there is an ocean of uncried male tears sitting out there. Because we are not supposed to do that. And, you know, your original question, is there a difference between male and female burnout symptomatically, no, feels the same. How do we get into it? I think there are differences there. And that's one of them is, as men, we're taught to hold all those emotions inside. And that is too much to bear. That's— we just can't. We can't be healthy if we only have 2 emotions, happy and mad.

Jim YoungI think what's interesting about your approach to this, your book is called Expansive Intimacy: How Tough Guys Defeat Burnout. And it's this tough guys, I don't know whether it's just the way I've I've written it down, but I've put some exclamation marks, some not exclamations, a little— what's this tough guy thing we keep talking about?

Jim YoungYeah, there are quotes around tough guys in the subtitle. And it's because of this notion that what is a tough guy? And I interviewed a guy in the book, and he talked about how he felt that his role in life was to just take it on the chin, no matter what, to protect his family, to provide for them, and never let anybody see that anything ever hurt him. And that's not tough. I mean, that's the archetype that we've seen forever. And to be tough has been, you just bear up, you do whatever it takes, you suck it up. And I argue that that's not really tough, because if you look at statistics around things like divorce, addiction, heart disease, suicide, For men, they start to skyrocket when men get into their middle years, 50s in particular, around suicide is a real danger zone. And if you're a guy who's taking it on the chin, you're sucking it up, you're isolating, you're in burnout, and that's driving you to those conclusions that might end your life early or really compromise the quality of your life, you're not providing for your family. You're not protecting anyone. That is not tough. What is tough is to say, oh my God, I'm scared, or I need to cry, I need somebody right now, I need help, I'm suffering, to actually reveal what's really going on, that we can't handle everything all the time. That's just not normal.

Jim YoungI think what's interesting is that this seems to be— I'm seeing a lot more about it, particularly men's mental health. I even saw an advert, I think, on British TV the other day about men's mental health. We're seeing more of it, but it's—

Jim YoungYeah.

Jim YoungTalking about it doesn't seem to be necessarily a new thing because we now— 20 years ago we had Tony Soprano, and the whole idea of that amazing series was him being this tough guy on the outside, and then inside Dr. Melfi's office he was not, even though he tried to be. So I mean, what's your thinking? Are we, are we actually changing the way we think about mental health? Has it been a consistent, solid change? What do you think?

Jim YoungI do think we are changing it. And I think 20 years or even 40 years is a blip. I mean, we're talking about 10,000 years of conditioning that we're supposed to go club the animal and bring it home and cook it and be a tough guy that way. The socialization of manhood is so long. And I think we're really in the infancy of waking up to saying, oh, we don't have to only have one side of ourselves present, that we can actually be a full person and still be a man. We don't have to give up the man part to bring in the part that's softer, nurturing, emotional, however you want to describe it. So it's just going to take a lot more repetitions, I think.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Jim YoungI mean, we look at some of our heroes. I mean, one of the ones I'm thinking of is Don Draper. Um, who was the sort of archetypal tough provider, but you just see how he just self-sabotages at almost every single stage. So is it, is it easier these days to be experiencing and talking about burnout than it was, say, 50 years ago?

Jim YoungI think it is because it's been in the zeitgeist so much. There's been a lot of attention. And I also really think the pandemic had a big shift In that. And I've had this conversation with a few people and have asked me, like, you know, what do you think? And to me, there was a really important piece of the early pandemic especially, and it was that we all faced our mortality at an age that we didn't think we had to, because we had no idea. Like, am I going to go to the supermarket and I'm going to go home and be dead in 2 days? I had to actually think about, could I die from this mysterious thing that's floating around? And a lot of people obviously did, which was what was tragic. But I think it created this consciousness of like, wait a second, why am I grinding through my life and not seeing my kids' soccer games or dance performances or going out on date night with my wife or investing in friendships, all the things that make life so rich? Why am I not doing that? I could be dead tomorrow. And I'll say like, yeah, I had a great ROI on my project and I bought a big boat that I never use. And I think it was this wake-up moment that started to crack that conversation a little bit more wide open.

Jim Young100%. I think the pandemic, as tragic as it was for some people, for the majority of us has changed the way that we look at things, hasn't it?

Jim YoungIt's, it's opened up some really important conversations. And I've seen a lot more men, and this may also be self-selection bias. Like, I've really taken a deeper dive into doing work with men and with emotions and with burnout in the past couple of years. So I see people all over the place now, I'm like, oh, great, because we need thousands of us to be helping, you know, support these huge needs that have gone unmet for a long time or even unrecognized for a long time.

Jim YoungSo I'm curious, about 20 years ago, Gary Vee came out and he kind of had this whole hustle culture which turned into the hustle porn. And, and it used to be that— well, that's what about when I started my second business. And it was like, how, you know, how are you? And you're supposed to say, oh, I'm so busy, mate. I'm so busy, man. You know, that whole idea. And has that hustle culture, is that still a thing? Is that still a contributing factor to our burnout?

Jim YoungFor sure. I even think that the I'm so busy, even I'm burned out is a badge of honor, which is part of— I actually think it's really a positive development. Because if people are willing, if men in particular, who I'm trying to reach, are willing to say, Hey, I'm wearing the burnout badge. Well, there's a dark side to that as well. And it opens up the conversation like, yeah, I'm burned out too. Maybe I actually don't want this and I can actually talk about it because it's okay to say I'm burned out. So I think there's been some normative behavior that's been positive that's grown out of hustle culture and it's still going on. There's still people who are, I've gotta achieve, I've gotta succeed, I gotta beat the next guy, I gotta keep climbing the ladder.

Jim YoungYeah, there's the story I read about, uh, one of the richest men. I think it might have been Sweden, um, and he was one of the richest men. He was the richest man in Sweden, and then, um, something happened. He lost half his wealth, um, became the 3rd richest man in Sweden, and then stepped in front of a train and killed himself. And it's just, you know, that ego. I think— I, I don't know, it feels to me that ego can be really, really detrimental.

Jim YoungYeah. Yeah, can I put a different word on that?

Jim YoungYeah.

Jim YoungI'd use shame because I, I think that's a really, really deep and strong undercurrent for men. And that example is a great one, right? I'm number one. Now I'm not number one. I'm a loser. I've failed. I'm weak. I'm less than. And it's shameful. I can't face Other people until I get back on top. And we see this all over the place. That example is horrifying. We saw that with the elections in the US. We had a president who couldn't admit that he lost. Why is it, is it so shameful? And you look at some of the language around that, whether it's with politicians or people in business, it's like, I have to be the winner. We have to crush the competition. And if we don't, what, what does that mean for us? What does that mean about our identity? Are we, are we soft? Are we weak? Are we, are we a failure? I think that causes a lot of that hustle culture.

Jim YoungSo tell me, like, we're talking— I'm guessing we're talking about Trump here. So without the ego, without the hustle culture, without the Type A personality, would he have become president, do you think?

Jim YoungThat's a great question. I think it's a huge part of his brand. I think it was a huge part of the appeal because I think what he was speaking to in 2016 that caused such a groundswell was this group of men in our culture in particular who said, I want us to have a winner. I want to follow this guy because I don't feel like Maybe I'm winning. I think there's almost this opposite effect. A lot of the voters that turned out for him are not people who maybe participate in hustle culture, but they see like the sheen of that, of having it all. So yeah, that's a really intriguing question.

Jim YoungIt's just making me think that there does— I mean, this is not based on evidence, it's just based on my life, is that the things that people who are at the top, the men at the top seem to have kind of like a type Type A personality where I'm, I'm curious, do you think that in order to be the best at something, you have to have some element of this tough guy, I'm not burnt out, I'm fine kind of thing?

Jim YoungUm, it's one path, I'll say that for sure. The evidence would back it up. And I also have seen other examples of men. I'll think of a, a guy that I consider an informal mentor. His name is Ari Weinzweig. He owns a business called Zingerman's, or co-founded that business in the US. And it's a very successful enterprise. They've created a community of businesses, about 13 companies over the years, starting with a deli in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And it's become this powerhouse that has a phenomenal culture, has people— Ari is by title one of the leaders, but if you ever talk to the guy and if you ever hear him describe how he goes about that, how he's built this thing, he's like, We did it together. We create— I'm a piece of this. And this more egalitarian approach has tremendous power in terms of creating the traditional type of success that we think about and expanding that even more, that the people who work in that organization absolutely love it. They have wonderful results because they're connected. And it's not this domineering, I'm going to drag us to success no matter what. type of energy. It's a much more collaborative design.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Jim YoungWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Jim YoungAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking.

Jim YoungAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Jim YoungSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.

Jim YoungUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Jim YoungIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking I am.

Jim YoungGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Jim YoungYeah, come back.

Jim YoungDefinitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.

Jim YoungI'll cut that out. Keep that in. It's interesting you mentioned that, um, because I think he's mentioned in the book, uh, Bo Burlingham's Small Giants. Um, I think he's one of the stories in there. And it's funny because they're all like— the whole idea is, I'm sure you know, and Uh, is that it's about companies decided to stay small. And the one thing she doesn't really pull out— Beau Burlingham, I think it's Beau Burlingham, but the author doesn't really pull out— is that none of them seem to be driven too much by ego. They seem to be driven by community. So what would you say is the opposite of— if we say that we've got tough guy and successful over here, then what would be the opposite of successful and— what would you say the and bit is?

Jim YoungI don't know if you were setting me up for this, but I would say it's expansive intimacy.

Jim YoungMm-hmm.

Jim YoungAnd that's what I wrote about. And it's really this different way of looking at success is that if I have places everywhere in my life where I can dive into relationships that feel trusting and compassionate and fulfilling to me, I have so much success. And that includes financially or as a business to grow. When I have that kind of team around me, and I can bring all of those people up because I work with executives all the time, and so many of them are driven by— they want to create opportunities for other people. And when you create those opportunities in a way where we know each other, we trust each other, we can have real honest relationships where we can share what's actually going on in our lives, then we can create something completely different and we can have the same kind of success. We may decide that the goal isn't to be a trillion-dollar-a-year company or trillion-dollar market cap. We may decide to be a small giant, but I don't think that necessarily matters. I think it's more about what's the quality of that success? What are we building that supports each other? And we, we have, we have fun together. We can share the things that are scary to us, the the challenges that we, we go through. We can do it all instead of, uh, having to just be focused on just be businesslike.

Jim YoungThere seems to be a— certainly on TikTok, Instagram, that kind of thing— people talking about snowflakes. And from what I understand, the definition of snowflake is potentially someone who is saying, oh, I'm burnt out, or I can't cope with this, or I need a few weeks off. How does your book deal with the potential labeling of someone who's saying I'm in trouble And then their boss going, you're just a snowflake, get on with it.

Jim YoungYeah, that's a tough approach to take. I guess what I try to invoke is empathy and compassion, that we actually take a step back from what's the circumstance going on that somebody is so upset that a person who's struggling is saying, I need to take a couple of weeks off or whatever the situation is. And to actually say, What would it be like? What's going on for that person? Why would somebody take such a drastic step as to come in and say, I need to step away from my job when I know that the stakes are perceived as high? And to really look at what are all the stakes? And can I be with that person and say, oh, okay, tell me what's happening here? I mean, that's the approach I take. It's radically different than the modern business world that has demands for stakeholders and quarterly reports and all of that. And it's not to say that taking that alternate approach isn't uncomfortable, doesn't have a short-term hit on some of those immediate results, because if we slow things down to connect with the people in our organizations, the project might slow down. But do we take care of that person? Do we improve our retention rates? Do we make it easier to attract talent? Do we, in the long term, build a fabric where we have teams that are more flexible, that can get things done better? I think so.

Jim YoungSo tell me, so I can properly understand you, the man who I'm talking to right now. You've given us a little bit of backstory about burnout. But what's the real reason why burnout is just your passion and what you're dedicating your life to?

Jim YoungI've been coming to this realization Over the last few months that my work is not actually about burnout, that my work is actually about intimacy. That as people in this modern society that's so fast and so distributed and so disconnected in so many ways, we've lost some essential parts of what makes life so rich. And burnout is a condition that I went through that got me to intimacy. Intimacy is how I got—

Jim YoungYeah.

Jim Youngbeyond my days of burnout, my years of burnout. By investing in intimate relationships across every area of my life, I started to free up the space where I couldn't burn out anymore. And so I know that that is— it's not even just our species that craves connection, that is wired for connection. It's part of all life. And when we are so cut off from each other, when we're isolated, We burn out. We can't sustain ourselves when we don't have social support. Study after study proves that out. So that's really like deep within me is I want connection. I was a lonely, shy kid, right? It comes from there. I didn't know how to connect with people in the world. It took me a long time to figure that out. And I know a lot of people struggle with that. And I know a lot of men in particular are told—

Jim YoungYeah.

Jim YoungDon't show your emotional side. And that's where we connect from. That's how we build intimacy is by revealing our emotional reality. So for me, I see so much pain and suffering for men, and it's unnecessary. And there's pain and suffering for everyone. I can speak to the male condition. So that's what I choose to do.

Jim YoungTotally agree with you. I was lonely, awkward child. And, you know, and the number of times that people just say, oh, just man up, you know, and it's just, I don't know what that means and I don't know how to do it. So tell me, if you— what would you like to see leaders and managers doing to help prevent or even recognize burnout?

Jim YoungFirst thing is talking about it. Absolutely. The first thing I want them to be talking about is what's going on for me? Am I experiencing it? What's going on in our organization? Letting it be known that this is something we can talk about, normalizing that this is real. There are so many studies out there. Some of them I think are overblown. I think Deloitte had a study that said 78% of workers were burned out. I don't think it's that dire, but I do look at studies that show 35%, 38% of people being burned out. It's a normal thing, right? Let's stop the stigma around the fact that Our current work cultures create conditions that aren't healthy for everyone. After, you know, beyond normalizing it, it's then actually modeling what would it be like to be different. I'm not going to require people to respond to emails on the weekend. I'm not going to send emails myself outside of those work hours. Really simple but profound impact when a leader either does or doesn't. message the team at 10 o'clock at night. If that's the way to get ahead, I'm responding at 10:02, and I'll be pissed if somebody responded at 10:01, right? So modeling behavior, having those conversations to normalize it, and then understanding what do we need to then do? How do we need to shift the culture? How do we make it so that we have a workplace where we can meet our goals? We can still achieve the business objectives that we've set out and fulfill the mission that we have. How can we do it in a way that our people are first?

Jim YoungSo if we go back, say, 15 years, then sort of our peer groups would tend to be— for men, might be people who you play sports with, you go to the pub with, you work with, etc. So our influence from our peer group was relatively small. You know, we might only have sort of 20. I mean, what there is, that famous joke about the least believable thing about the Bible is a man in his 30s who's got 12 close friends, which always, always makes me chuckle. But I think my question is around— so that was our influence, was our friends. Now we're influenced by social media where there are not only thousands more people who we probably experience on a day, but people who, who have been given, attributed this status of like— I'm using one particular guy who personally I cannot stand, a guy called Andrew Tate. You may not know him, a British, uh, MMA fighter who's been banned from Instagram for misogynistic, uh, comments and stuff. But he had such a following. So what are we going to do about this whole social media thing where our influence is coming from not just our social, not just our peers, but everyone in the world and someone who can shout loudest?

Jim YoungI wish I had a good answer for that one. That's a, that's a genie that's out of the bottle in a lot of ways. Um, you know, I would say follow Patti. Another MMA fighter who had a— I don't know what his last name is, but there was a viral video of his where he talked about he had a mate who had committed suicide the week before a big match that he had. And at the end of the match, he was given the microphone to say a couple of words, and he decided to speak about how lonely men are and how tragic it was and how he wished that his friend had just reached out to him and talked. And so I don't know. I try to avoid social media for the most part. I spend a little bit of time on a couple of the common platforms. I'm on LinkedIn a lot because I like the discourse there. And I think it's recognizing there's great information to be had there. I get exposure to so many different ideas and I find plenty of time to be on media one-to-one with people. Probably 4 conversations a week with different people who I either have longstanding relationships with or I'm just getting to know. This afternoon, I have a call with 7 men that we meet once a month on Zoom for 90 minutes and we just talk about whatever. And oftentimes it's really profound. It's about our sex lives, it's about money, it's about anything. And I think Taking the risk to say, hey, I'm interested in this person, I want to talk to them, I want to establish a relationship. Go ahead and keep using technology, we're gonna do it. But how do you make conscious choices of, am I going down rabbit holes on social media, or am I actually connecting with another human being in a conversation? I don't have— I have a lot of friends. I don't— I have a bunch of friends that I've never met. But they're amazing friends. I've talked with them about things that I've never even talked with my dad about. It's a whole other story.

Jim YoungWhen you're writing— when most people write books, they seem to have like an ideal reader in their mind when, when they're writing their book. Can you describe who would be the ideal person who should go out there and buy your book right now?

Jim YoungYeah, he owns a business that he probably founded, and that business has grown to a point that he's feeling really successful in the traditional way, and yet it's consuming him. He doesn't get enough time with his kids. His spouse is probably saying, hey, I want more from you. And he's probably also starting to run into some challenges in the business because his burnout is now contagious and it's affecting the other people that he works for. And he's starting to see that he's plateaued in the business. So it's, it's this place of like, I got really successful and then, oh shit, it's not that successful. I don't have all the things that I wanted. I'm not actually living the dream.

Jim YoungIt's funny you say that. Do you feel that sometimes with, particularly with men, that you have to go and buy the boat, you have to go and buy the new BMW to prove that you're successful to other men?

Jim YoungYeah, yeah, I think so. And then I think eventually We get to that point of diminishing returns where we realize, like, I can't get a fancy enough car because somebody else just got the Maserati, right? And like, that, that race to the top is a fallacy. There is no top. It just keeps climbing. And so we're always going to find ourselves wanting more. And eventually we realize, like, this is too much. Like, I'm putting in so much effort for status. And I don't have friends anymore. My relationship with my wife isn't good. I don't know my kids. My colleagues don't enjoy it. It's the relationships, it's the intimacy in our lives that ultimately defines our success.

Jim YoungYeah, there's always someone with a bigger cigar, isn't there? Whether that's a—

Jim YoungYeah, Sigmund Freud might say.

Jim YoungSo before, I've just got one more question after this. So yeah, you wrote an article which you called The F Word about a year ago. Do you remember it? Yeah, yeah, resonated, resonated with me. Tell me more about that.

Jim YoungYeah, the F word that I think we don't consider to be dangerous is fine. I'm fine. Hey, bud, how you doing? I'm fine. Except you see the delivery of it, right? You watch the energy behind when that guy says to you, I'm fine. And you realize it's not fine, then what do you do? Do you actually say, no, really, how are you? And I've really started to take to that question when somebody asks me how you're doing. And I've been practicing this for, for a while now, is answering honestly. And sometimes I catch myself answering, I'm fine. And then I realize, hold on, let me give you the real answer. And it's a huge step Towards vulnerability. It's that revealing of, you know what, I'm not fine. And it totally feeds into what I write about in the book around shame, which was not a topic I expected to explore in the book, but I realized like, that's the undercurrent. That's what's keeping men— putting men in burnout, keeping them there and holding them back from intimacy. And I'm fine is one of the code words that we use to hide whatever we feel shame about.

Jim YoungJust as a quick aside, my business partner and I are also like best mates, which causes all kinds of problems. Um, but we have a, um, there's a bit in Pulp Fiction. I don't know if you've seen the film. There's a bit where, where, uh, where Ving Rhames, um, is in the back with Butch and Zed. Um, and so, but, and so then Bruce Willis says, are you okay? And he goes, I'm pretty fucking far from okay. And that's, that's like—

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Jim YoungBut I think, and quite often I will, if I Chris, and he's having a bad day, I'll say, you okay? And he'll go, I'm pretty fucking far from okay. And that's our way of saying it's been a shit day without having to say it.

Jim YoungYeah, yeah, that's, that's awesome. Like, finding the ways that we can get away from I'm fine and into what's real. And eventually, when we get into a relationship with somebody where we've shared enough, we open up the aperture and we can be like, dude, I am crushed today. I am grieving Whatever it is. And now it's like, oh, I don't have to hold that. I got to share it. Oftentimes that's all we need is just the release and somebody else to hear it and know, be like, yeah, I'm thinking of you, buddy. Cool. I feel better.

Jim YoungBrilliant. Is there any question that I should have asked you that I haven't?

Jim YoungYeah. And it would be about what I've done outside of my work life, the traditional professional career. That has helped me through burnout. And so if that's the question, I'll go ahead and answer it.

Jim YoungYes.

Jim YoungImprov comedy. And that's one form of combining risk-taking and creativity. So it's not that it's a prescription that if you're burned out, you should go take an improv comedy class and then keep doing those for years and end up being on stage and do shows and That's what I did, and it's been tremendous. But the key was I got into a place where I could take risks about things that mattered, which is communication, relationship with other people. And I started to learn all these new skills that were fun and creative and brought me joy in my life and also had some gravity to them.

Jim YoungYeah.

Jim YoungLike, I had to deal with anxiety and fear and all the things that come up when we take creative risk. So I would just encourage for, you know, to really paint a full-color picture of the life that we get to lead. Where are you finding creative risk-taking in your life? Whether it's improv comedy, playing in a rock band, you know, being in your woodshop, building stuff, like there's all sorts of ways to do it. So I just, I think that's something that adds a little bit more texture to the conversation.

Jim YoungI love it. And I suppose, I mean, I watch a lot of comedians and love it. And I think that it gives you the stage, literal and figurative stage, to be able to say things that are serious without actually people going, oh shit, are you okay? You know, kind of things. Right.

Jim YoungYeah. And as I learned from my first improv teacher, We play through a thin veil. That character of mine that comes up on screen and feels awkward and anxious, that's probably me, right? The audience thinks it's fun and we're making fun of it, but there's some truth in it.

Jim YoungAbsolutely. Jim, you've been absolutely fantastic. I've learned lots. I am definitely going on Amazon and buying your book as soon as we get off this. And yeah, we'll, you know, you've just given us so much. So much to talk about and so much to talk around, and I'm just so grateful. So thank you so much.

Jim YoungReally appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. I love what you're doing. When I saw the name Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture, I said, oh, this is going to be exciting and a fun conversation. And it's been that and more. So thank you.

Leanne ElliottI think Al and Jim have given us a lot to reflect on there. And if you'll indulge me for a few more minutes, I'd like to share some of Some of mine. I wonder sometimes whether we're so concerned with our own agendas that we're isolating others, potentially villainizing others. Middle-aged men today are really in this strange place between 2 very different generations: the pre-war, silent, strong type, and the post-war, open, honest, progressive generation. And on top of this, middle-aged men, or middle-aged, is a time for everyone when, you know, the, the weight, the impact of our previous decisions really reveal themselves. And making any change at this point can come at a really high cost financially, socially. There's not always that time to recover. That means that people feel trapped under the choices they've made earlier, the choices they have available to them now, and That's what seriously compromises mental health. This conversation has also helped me reflect on the question, am I playing an active role in reinforcing gender stereotypes and social expectations of what it means, inverted commas, to be a man? Listening to this conversation between Al and Jim really gave me a refreshed perspective In terms of the social and psychological pressures that he is under. And I'm not sure I ever really understood how much I unconsciously rely on him to be tough. And while I do feel a renewed sense of gratitude for him serving that role for me, equally, I'm motivated to do better in holding, holding a space for him To use Al's words, be very far from okay. For me, this conversation was a really timely reminder of what we can do and how we can better support the men in our lives. It's okay to not be okay. If you'd like more information or support based on this week's episode, please do check out all of the information and links in the show notes. To talk you through them, first of all, our incredible guest Jim Young. You'll be able to find him on LinkedIn at The Centered Coach. Jim's book is called Expansive Intimacy: How Tough Guys Defeat Burnout, and we will leave a link to both Jim's LinkedIn and his book in the show notes. I'll also mention there a comedian called Rob Delaney who wrote a really powerful book called A Heart That Works about his experiences losing his son. Rob Delaney's also done some incredibly open and honest interviews, so I would definitely consider, um, checking that out. Again, we'll leave a link in the show notes. Jim was also very generous to share some other resources with us. As you would have heard, he is a huge proponent of close community, especially men's groups. Um, a few resources that he recommends for those who want to share deep, meaningful bonds with a community of men He'd recommend organizations such as Everyman and the Mankind Project. For men who are feeling isolated in their business lives, he suggests organizations like YPO and Vistage. There are also many dedicated coaches who offer men's group experiences, including Jamie Robbins in the UK, Ken Mossman in the US, and of course, Jim himself. We'll leave all the links to those resources in the show notes. If you're in the UK, you can also check out the Men's Health Forum, which offers information, services, and treatments for men experiencing mental health challenges. We'll also leave a link to the Men and Boys Coalition. That's a network of organizations, academics, journalists, professionals, and leaders that are committed to highlighting and taking action on gender-specific issues that affect men and boys. There's also the Black Men's Consortium, which is dedicated to improving Black men's mental health. There's also some information for a couple of talking services in the show notes. The first is called the Mankind Initiative. This is support for specifically for males who are victims of domestic abuse. And secondly, the Samaritans. If you are feeling in distress or despair, including suicidal feelings, please consider giving them a call. We will leave both telephone numbers in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening and holding a safe space for this very important conversation. Al and I will be back next week on the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast. Please do consider subscribing, leaving a review, and getting in touch. We'll see you next week.

The Untold Heartbreak of Male Leaders: Conversations with Jim Young, Men's Burnout Coach

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