Episode 230 · 9 September 2025 · 42:00
How to Stand Out Without Burning Out (Truth, Lies & Work x Nerd Journey)
How to Stand Out Without Burning Out (Truth, Lies & Work x Nerd Journey)
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Being in the team: role clarity and standing out
The Toyota stop-cord story: psychological safety in action
Why coaching skills matter more than telling
Flipping the lens: what managers need from their teams
"What does good look like?" — the most powerful question
The quiet hero: why every team needs a Bob
Honest conversations and championing the unseen
other#honest-conversations#employee-recognition#administration
Standing out without burning out (or being a jerk)
Becoming an entrepreneur of your own reputation
Calling out bad practice — from Elon Musk to blanket emails
Key takeaways: clarity, support networks, be more Bob
Show notes
How to Stand Out Without Burning Out (Truth, Lies & Work x Nerd Journey)
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) share part two of their conversation with Jon White and Nick Korte, hosts of the Nerd Journey podcast. If part one (episode 224) was about the pressure on managers in flatter organisations, this half flips the lens: what it's like to be in the team, and how to thrive when everything feels uncertain.
From asking "What does good look like?" to the Toyota production line's daily stop-cord ritual, Al and Leanne unpack why clarity beats effort, why every team needs a "Bob," and how to become an entrepreneur of your own reputation — without the "personal brand" cringe.
🔥 What We Cover
1. Clarity is everything The single most powerful thing you can do to stand out — and support your manager — is ask: "What does good look like?" Without role clarity, effort gets wasted, expectations drift, and resentment builds. Al and Leanne dig into why this question is harder than it sounds, and how managers can create the space for it.
2. Psychological safety in action A story from Toyota's production line: there's a cord you can pull to stop everything and ask a question. In a factory with 2,000 employees, the stop cord gets pulled 7 times per person, per year — not because things are going wrong, but because the culture says it's safe to ask. Culture beats rules, every time.
3. The role of the quiet hero The colleagues you remember aren't usually the loudest in the room. They're the ones who make life easier for everyone else — the "Bobs" who quietly hold things together. Al and Leanne explore why every team needs one, and how to champion the people who aren't shouting about their own wins.
4. Managers need support too Stress rolls downhill unless leaders find their own outlets — peers, coaches, honest conversations. The job isn't to absorb pressure silently; it's to process it so your team doesn't inherit your anxiety.
5. Becoming an entrepreneur of your own reputation Forget "personal brand" — it makes Leanne's skin crawl. Instead, think like an entrepreneur: you're building something valuable, and part of that is taking control of how you're seen. Not through buzzwords or self-promotion, but through curiosity, coaching, and genuine contribution.
🎧 Want More From Jon & Nick?
- Nerd Journey Podcast: nerd-journey.com
- Jon White on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jonwhite173
- Nick Korte on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nickkorte
- Listen to Part 1 on Nerd Journey: nerd-journey.com
- Missed Part 1 with Al and Leanne? Catch it as episode 224 of Truth, Lies & Work.
🧠 Top 3 Takeaways
- Ask "What does good look like?" — and keep asking until you get a real answer. Clarity is the foundation of standing out without exhausting yourself.
- Be more Bob. The people you remember at work are the ones who make life easier for everyone else. Quiet contribution beats loud self-promotion.
- Support networks aren't optional. Whether you're a manager or not, find your outlet — peers, coaches, honest conversations — before the stress rolls downhill.
📬 Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne and I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottWelcome back, welcome back. It is firmly September territory.
Leanne ElliottFirmly, firmly.
Al ElliottYeah, this week we're bringing you something a little special.
Leanne ElliottYes, we are. So you may remember from back in the summer how we talked about resignations can typically peak in September, because it's true, those long summer nights allowed for a lot of thinking and a lot of reflection. So traditionally as well, coinciding with that, the run-up to Christmas and into the new year is a pretty good time to get job hunting. So we thought we'd share a conversation on how you can stand out in in your team, whether you've just joined it or if you're looking for that step up.
Al ElliottYeah, so if you were here with us over summer, you'll remember the first half of a long chat we had on another podcast called Nerd Journey. That show's run by John White and Nick Corte, and they're both former IT ops professionals. Now they're in tech sales. They've made almost 350 episodes helping people in tech figure out their careers, the sort of advice they wish that someone had given them earlier on.
Leanne ElliottIn that first part, we talked about the pressure on managers. Why so many teams are suddenly bigger, what happens when organisations get flatter, and how leaders can still do their jobs well when everything feels a little bit uncertain.
Al ElliottYeah, that was back in episode 224, which came out about mid-August, if I remember. If you haven't heard it, then feel free to go back and start with that one, because that's part 1 and that's— this is part 2. Although it is, you can still listen to this as a standalone. That episode really seemed to hit home with a lot of you because we had messages saying it felt very close to what's going on at work right now. So today we're bringing you the second half of that conversation.
Leanne ElliottThis part is more about being in the team. So how you get clear on what your job actually is, how you stand out for the right reasons without burning yourself out, and why good managers need people around them too, so they don't end up passing all that stress straight down the line.
Al ElliottSo after this very, very quick break, we're gonna bring you part 2 of our conversation with John and Nick on the Nerd Journey podcast. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform. Every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottThat's what I'd say is to highlight those skills, your curiosity, your ability to coach, your ability to listen. I would snap up anyone, even if they had no experience at all. I would snap up anyone with their skills into a management role. John, this sounds a lot like the episode you did solo recently about the first-time manager, your job description's been deleted and fighting the urge to answer the question.
Al ElliottThat was directly from a coaching course that I did that as part of my first-time manager training that my employer provided or, you know, made available, didn't make mandatory. But I think it's exactly what Leanne just mentioned is it seems less efficient by time, right? If somebody comes to you with a problem and you, you know how to solve it, so you could just solve it, but then it's more efficient to guide them through the process of learning how to solve the problem themselves, even if it's short-term, takes more time. Oh, this is something that I could do in 30 seconds. And it's going to take me 5 minutes to teach you how to do it. But I get back that 30 seconds for every single problem like this that you're going to bring to me instead of fixing yourself.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And you're building somebody's capability and confidence and thought process. And whilst doing that, which is great for their own professional development, you're creating a space for them where they feel safe to ask you the stupid questions that they know you know the answers to. And then for you to have that space where you've then led them that they come to that answer or that conclusion. That's a genuine interaction, a human interaction that breeds this trust and this connection and psychological safety. So you're not only gaining that 30 seconds back for every problem in the future, you're gaining enormous amounts of trust and connection, which are 2 vital things that, that you need as a manager and generally in organizational life, we, we really need right now.
Al ElliottWe were talking to a guy called Andrew Palmer, who's from The Economist, um, yesterday or day before, interviewing him for our podcast. And, um, he runs his own podcast. It's all getting very meta now, uh, called Boss Class, I think, which is an economist podcast. He was telling us about the time he went to the production facility in the UK for Toyota. Um, and he said, and you probably guys might have heard of this, but, um, certainly in the UK, I think around the world, there's got the big production line, lots of people there working, and there's a cord at the top of it, which you can pull.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottJust in case anyone's not heard this, uh, there's a cord you can pull and everything stops and you can ask a question or you can see if something's wrong with a, with the machine you're working on, or perhaps you just wanna go to the toilet. You pull this cord and it stops and everybody stops. And so Andrew said, how many times a day do you think it stops? They think it gets pulled. And I guessed 6 or 8.
Leanne ElliottHe's in an organization with 2,000 employees.
Al ElliottSorry.
Leanne ElliottAnd they'd also stop it to celebrate something or share good news or a win. But yeah, 2,000 employees. How many times each day was that cord pulled?
Al ElliottDo you guys wanna have a guess or do you want us to tell you?
Leanne ElliottYeah, no, have a guess. I'm gonna say less than 3.
Al ElliottAnd I was gonna say 20. Interesting. Andrew said 20. Do you remember the number?
Leanne Elliott1,400?
Al ElliottNo, it was, it was a multiple of the number of people. It was 7 times for every single person who worked there. Oh, it was 14,000? 14,000 times a day that cord's pulled. 14,000 times someone stops it, even just for like a second, but they stop the entire production line because they see something they're not 100% sure about or not comfortable with. Now, in terms of psychological safety, can you imagine that? That you're able 7 times a day to stop the entire production of a plant just because of something you're going, is that supposed to be there? Should that be tighter? Anyway, I just thought that was a great story and it's a great podcast, by the way, by The Economist. That's amazing. And you're right. It's a reflection on culture that the organization has fostered that people have the psychological safety to pull the cord. I just wonder about the intermediate steps on how to do that, but that's probably something that we'll listen to your interview about. Well, yeah, because he does talk, this is quite interesting because we said the same question, like, yeah, but your first day, that first pull, what do you do? And he's like, almost like they say, like, it's a bit of a laugh. The first day you have to pull it. The first thing you do, you just go up there, grab it, pull it, and then it's out the way. It's like back in the UK, we used to be a thing. If you ever worked in a bar, the first day you had to go and deliberately break a glass on the floor because then it's out the way and it's done and everyone's laughed at you and then you crack on with your work.
Leanne ElliottAnd this is where a great manager with the coaching skills is going to do this intuitively or intentionally anyway. You know, they're going to go to a newer employee or a more junior employee and say, does this look right to you? There's something wrong here that I'm missing. Is there a way that we can improve it? And they go, well, yeah, have you maybe thought about just tweaking this? You know fine well that that's what needs tweaking, but you're showing that openness and vulnerability to go, have your say. Your voice is important here too. And that's probably the first baby step is you're literally asking them to pull the cord. While we're talking about managers, I wanna go back to the concept of hiding the wires, Leanne, that we talked about in episode 238. So if my organization is flatter, I'm a manager with more people, how much more difficult is it for me to hide those wires? Is it more difficult because I have more people or is it the same? I'm not sure it is, it is any harder or easier given that context. I think the important thing about hiding the wires is whether as a manager you have somebody that you can share that emotional load with, that stressful situation with, whether it's your senior manager, whether it's a peer, whether it's an exterior coach, whether it's an internal coach, a mentor. therapist. It's who do you go to to go, oh my gosh, this happened. It's so annoying. You won't believe what they're asking me to do now. Rather than saying that to your team. I'm not sure necessarily the structure matters too much. It could, of course, impact the relationship you have with your direct line manager. Perhaps they've been made redundant and they're not there anymore. So, it might require a reshuffling of your social support network. But I think ultimately it's, yeah, it's finding something beyond your immediate team context.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, and the support you need to, to offload that. Probably should have explained what hide the wires means before, uh, I asked about it or while I asked about it. But my understanding of what you shared before was that you're essentially taking and not thrusting the emotional blowback or frustration from a situation you were in as a manager and putting it into a situation you have to take care of with one of your employees. Exactly. Yeah, it's storming into that team meeting and saying, you won't believe what they've asked us to do now. It's what psychologists call emotional regulation. It's understanding, having that self-awareness to kind of think that I'm feeling angry, but expressing that anger in this context right now isn't going to serve me or my team. That's not to say that that anger doesn't need to be expressed. It does, which is why you need somebody, whether it be a senior leader or a coach or, or someone else. Being mindful and having that self-awareness of how you operate emotionally in terms of your behaviors is going to have a direct impact on the mood, motivation of your team. So, if that's not going to be positive, then hide the wires.
Al ElliottThat's funny. I don't think that I realized that that is where I got that behavior, but it is definitely from that interview because it is a difficult thing, right? When you're asked to relay something that you don't necessarily agree with, or you have some emotional friction with, to not pass along your reaction. You need the reaction from the people who you're getting feedback from to be an intermediary because, hey, you know, part of the job is like, if that is causing some blowback at the individual contributor level, then as a manager, it's your responsibility to, to kind of aggregate that and pass that back up. But to inject one's own reaction into that chain is probably not fair. You don't want to necessarily cue people and burden them with, with your burdens.
Leanne ElliottExactly. And you also don't want to make an assumption that your team will have the same reaction because we don't work in a vacuum. It might be that you've been asked to do that by a particularly difficult manager at a particularly difficult time. You've had a bad morning anyway. It might be that actually the idea isn't that bad. It just needs a different view or a few tweaks. If you take that to a team with, with the context of, you won't believe what they're asking us to do now. This is outrageous. I can't believe it. You're putting them in a set already in a place of cognitive bias. They're going to think it's a bad idea unless they've got great levels of psychological safety to go, actually, John, I think, I think it's an all right idea, actually. Either way, you don't want to put them in a position where they have to do the work.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottto change your mind before they can, you can explore the idea or the possibility. You want to go in a neutral space to understand exactly what their thoughts are. Chances are they're probably going to be the same as yours. On the off chance that they're not, then yeah, it's worth having some patience in that moment.
Al ElliottAnd maybe the person who's passed that along to you isn't the originator of the idea either.
Leanne ElliottThere's always that too.
Al ElliottCould we Flip the earlier conversation that we had about a manager managing a large number of people on their team to being a member of a team that might be 15 or 20 people. I think for the individual contributors, it might be a little bit difficult to stand out as a high performer or to get time and attention, even just for help, in a situation where The manager has twice as many people to manage. Do you have any ideas or guidance maybe that we can, we can pass along? The difficulty is, and this is, this is the, this is the business owner equivalent of the psychologist, it depends, because it very much depends on what the manager of that team is like, whether they are overwhelmed and aren't in the space to look out for, you know, great people, whether they, they already have their office door shut because they've got, they're working late into the nights. They've not got time for your stuff. If we take it, if we take the situation as, let's assume that they are a decent manager and they want to find people who are good. I think it'll depend whether you're in a sales environment, which case is very target-driven. So the way to stand out in sales is to be really good at sales, to bring home, to close, but just close decent deals and be a decent human being about it. So that's a different thing. If you are, for example, let's say that you are a backend developer, well, it is, what's your target there? Is it—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIs it commits? Is it bug-free? Is it whatever? I'm struggling to think of something that is universally, well, do this and your manager will understand. Well, sorry, will appreciate you and will notice you. Just like if you're out dating, those books that tell you, like, you know, the pickup artists saying, just go and wear a yellow feather boa or something, that'll work on all the women. Of course it won't. And of course it doesn't work anyway, but it just makes you stand out a little bit for a second and be not boring.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd those books, obviously, I'm not condoning. I think they're rubbish, but they were trying to peddle this idea of there's a simple trick, one simple hack that your manager doesn't want you to know sort of thing. That's what they want you to do. And the problem is that the way I see it, I don't know if there is something, but luckily we're joined by a psychologist who might have a better, better idea.
Leanne ElliottI think you found it. I just don't think you put your finger on it. What you talked about, the example of sales is perfect because there's such role clarity in sales roles. There's so much clarity over exactly what my job is, exactly what my outcomes need to be, exactly how they can be measured, exactly how I'm targeted, exactly how that relates to the revenue I'm generating for the company. There's so much clarity in sales because as an employee, you know exactly what it is that you have to do at a transactional level to deliver the outcomes of your role. If you can go as an employee to your manager and say, I want to understand exactly what your expectations are of me, exactly what great looks like, exactly what it is you want to deliver. How do I make you look great? Because I know as a salesperson, I make my sales manager look great by hitting my target 120%. How do I make you look great in a compliance role, in an HR role, in a, in an operations role? What are the objectives that I need to hit? And trying to gain that role clarity, which actually a lot of people don't have typically in their roles.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo trying to gain that role clarity is going to be really helpful and having that honest conversation with, with your manager. And I think ultimately, as long as you know exactly what you have to deliver and you're doing what you can to deliver it and where you can above and beyond and where you can make your manager look good or make their life easier or the life of your colleagues easier, that's what exceptional performance looks like to me in a non-sales role. It's somebody who is very clear on what they need to deliver.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottare very willing to support their colleagues in helping them deliver too for the team, and are very much there as a supportive member of staff to the manager should they also need support in moments like that. Is it as easy in practice? Probably not, because you're going to need a very good manager who's going to have that clarity themselves and feel confident having that conversation with you. But that's where I would start. And would that be something that we would want to make sure we do regularly, seeking that clarity of role? Especially in a world where the team might've been reorganized or restructured or, or have a new focus or a new goal or have been impacted by layoffs. Absolutely. And it's actually a really, an opportunity if you have gone through this team change to bring that conversation to your manager in a very open and just curious way. Now everything has changed, people have moved on. How has that changed expectations of the team, of the organization, what we want to deliver? It goes back to, you know, I'm sure you've heard about it and talked about before, but around kind of formation of teams. We have a major team, then teams go back into forming and storming and norming, and that process is going to start again. And part of that process, getting through it effectively, is people having clarity over what it is exactly the team is trying to achieve and my individual role in that mission delivery.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, if you've had a recent change like that, it's really your manager should be coming to you and telling you what this now new normal looks like. But if they're not, it'd be a great move to go and have that proactive conversation with your manager with openness and curiosity.
Al ElliottI know I asked this question, but you all have sparked these thoughts in my mind. I remember there was a, just like all these administrative tasks that I was responsible for. For the team, hey, have you updated these things in our customer relationship management system on a weekly basis? Have you done this tasks A, B, and C that we're responsible for every week? I would have this Wednesday reminder where I had to go in and check to make sure that everybody had done all these tasks. And then I would go and remind people like, hey, I needed this done, you know, at the beginning of the day, can you go in and do it now? And the people who let me know, you know, in the middle of the day, the day before, hey, this is done. I'm done with this. And I could like look back consistently and go, oh, these are the people that I always have to ask to do this task. And these are the people that are always telling me that task is already done. I would imagine that if I had a team that was twice as large, that would be even more important. Hey, here's the expectations that this stuff gets done every week as an intermediate part of our larger goal of X. And if the manager's not making it clear, maybe because they're not trained, as we talked about earlier, then an individual contributor who can raise their hand and ask the question, maybe in a one-on-one situation, hey, does this make your job easier if I, as a member of the team, do this on time or regularly, or let you know that it's done early, or if I help other people, something along those lines. And just asking that question, if you say you really want to stand out in a team, how many of your teammates, you've got 25 teammates, 1 manager, how many of your teammates are going to get in there one-to-one are going to say, how do I make your job easier? Teammate to manager. How do I make your job easier? How do I make you look great to your boss? How many people would think to ask that question? So if you are asking for that one hack that we talked about, we joked about, that seems to be it. You've just, you've just, you've put your finger on it. You go and say what, like Leanne says, how do I make you look great? Or how do I make your job easier? Like you just said there, John, the people who just brought their stuff on Wednesday rather than you chasing them on Thursday, you think about them.
Leanne ElliottI think I'd add to that as well, as a manager, it's, it's being open and gracious to the people that aren't delivering it on time, the ones that do always miss the deadlines, and having that conversation as to why that is. And not in an accusatory way, in a, is this something that you find difficult to fit in your day? Are you overloaded in other places? Do we need to go through the process again? Are you not sure about it? We know that colleagues who have, um, who are neurodiverse benefit from these types of administrative tasks by, um, what we call body doubling. So sitting with somebody else, whether that be on Zoom or person to person.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottTo actually set aside a time to do this task with a colleague. So it's finding out whether, oh, actually that, that could be a barrier to this task being done. Very few people actually just want to do a bad job and just do it to be annoying. Some do. And that's where we see, you know, that workplace incivility. That's a great example of workplace incivility. Somebody intentionally not meeting a deadline just to irritate you, John. But typically, unless the, you know, there's something in the culture that's going that, and you'd feel that as a, as a a larger collective of the team, I think. If it's just a couple of people here and there, it could be something that just isn't clicking rather than they just necessarily are choosing to miss the deadlines.
Al ElliottWe're gonna have more of the conversation with Nick and John from the Nerd Journey podcast after this very quick break.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Fel. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. I think it's probably important in those situations to assume good intentions. I don't know that I ever thought that people were doing that just to annoy me. Actually, it just never even occurred to me. So maybe I've internalized that, assume good intentions. If one senses that that is going on, then, then there's a whole other set of issues that are, that are probably inherent there, including, you know, just Hostility in the environment in general or instability or other problems going on. So I really do like the idea of grace. The job of the manager isn't to come down on people and yell and scream, you know, or do the equivalent, right? Because that probably isn't really that helpful. You know, take that opportunity to coach and ask if there's something else going on. Is there something underlying this behavior.
Leanne ElliottI remember having a member of staff who just didn't enjoy the administrative side of their role, were exceptional in every other area, but this paperwork issue just wasn't, was never top of their priority list. They'd leave it to last minute and they'd miss deadlines to the point where the month end would come and, you know, there's outcomes that require this paperwork couldn't be counted. I'd sit with them in a one-to-one and I'd kind of say, you know, we're kind of here again and we've tried all these different things, you know, what is it? And she's like, oh, I'm You know how busy I am. I've done this and I've done all these great things. And my breakthrough moment was when I said, I can't make you look good if you're not giving me the outcomes. I know how great you are, but the people above me, they don't know how great you are. They're just looking at outcomes on a spreadsheet. And that for her was that connection between, oh, I see. You can't make me look good without delivering this. Then just shifted the behavior in her because then she realized that, because she didn't want to be doing a bad job. She didn't want to look like she was doing a bad job.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo sometimes having those just honest conversations as well that I know it seems annoying, but without that, we can't get this outcome through. And that means that I can't shout from the top of the rooftops about what an amazing job you're doing, because I see it in every other aspect of, of your role.
Al ElliottDo you know what's really weird is that's just triggered me now a memory of when I was at school and I must have been about 13 or something doing French. I remember the teacher taking me, sitting me down and saying, look, I know you're good at French. You're better than most of the people in the class at French, but you don't do the homework. So how can I possibly grade you? better than anyone else if you don't put decent homework in. And I was like, oh, got a good point. How else would she get— how else can she prove I'm good? And I think I ended up getting an A in French or something that year from that teacher. Now, 2 things. First of all, that was like 36 years ago, and still I remember distinctly. And secondly, I bet she said that to everyone, but it worked.
Leanne ElliottIn both of those examples, The person giving the feedback, the manager, the teacher, was showing the person on the other side that they wanted them to do well. They made it safe for that person and let them know, I'm on your side. I'm cheering for you, but you're in control of where it goes from here. Sort of like, there's nothing more I can do on my side. Maybe not saying it like that, but.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Like you see, championing them. What a great rule of management. You want to be a great manager, champion your people, celebrate them, you know, show off their achievements and let them know, as you said, that you are on their side and you want to show off their achievements. Because that, as a manager, makes me look great. If my team are smashing it, then I'm doing a great job too. We all, we're all on the same side. We're all going to win together. I think it's having that, yeah, having that conversation. I love that. I love that. Imagine sitting down with your boss and they said to you, I'm on your side. I want to celebrate. everything you do. Ugh, you'd be on air for the rest of the day after a conversation like that.
Al ElliottAnd even if you don't have a great manager, I think a lot of people think that in order for me as part of a 25-person team to be amazing and get all the things I want, then other people have to lose. I have to win and other people have to lose in order for me to win. But like Leanne said, if everyone, if everyone on the team or the majority of the team were like, let's really produce some incredible work. Let's really, let's up our SLA. Let's do whatever it is that's the metric. We, as many of you as possible work together, we all look great. It's not a zero-sum game, is it?
Leanne ElliottNo, it's not.
Al ElliottEven if it's a zero-sum game, you can take it out of some other team or even your competitors in the marketplace, right? Even better. Even better. I really like that insight of coaching and laying it out and saying, hey, I'm on your side. The phrase, help me help you, was kind of ruined by that movie Jerry Maguire, but maybe it's not a cliché anymore. That movie's, you know, maybe 20 years old and people don't remember it. But if that line is delivered with honesty and compassion, then I think that that can be very effective. We were talking to a guy called Jeff— what's Joey's actor's surname? LeBlanc. Jeff LeBlanc. Jeff LeBlanc. And he's done a study on kindness in leadership. And we spoke maybe for about 6 or 8 minutes on Ted Lasso. I don't know if you watched it or anything or come across it. He thinks that that is the way that every manager should be. He thinks that every manager should watch the entire series from end to end. And I haven't watched it all. I've watched the first 2 seasons. And he said that Ted Lasso is the perfect manager because he brings humility, kindness, thoughtfulness, But then he won't give up on people. For those people who aren't in psychology and those people who are just like, I just want some kind of like thing to hang this, hang this whole idea of a great manager on, watch Ted Lasso and see what happens. That is so interesting. Huh.
Leanne ElliottI've never seen it. I guess I need to watch it now.
Al ElliottI think you would love it, Nick. The optimism and maybe investment in the process of improving the team as opposed to the outcome of winning was something that I took away, but that, that was maybe reinforcing my bias. You know, I always love being told that what I believe is right.
Leanne ElliottWell, there's a very, very good psychologist that believes that too.
Al ElliottYes. There you go.
Leanne ElliottIs there a secondary theme in everything we just talked about in that feedback, that conversation, help me help you, or I'm a champion for you? of encouraging the individual contributor to sort of be an entrepreneur of their own reputation within the company and even outside it.
Al ElliottAn entrepreneur of your own reputation. What a phenomenal turn of phrase that is. So just make sure I've understood what you're saying there. You're saying that— Nick just doesn't like to use the word owning your own brand. Well, I definitely don't. No, that's a real thing. That's definitely true.
Leanne ElliottLike, it's sort of like nails on a chalkboard when people say personal brand. It's just, ah, it just makes my skin crawl.
Al ElliottI don't know why, it just does.
Leanne ElliottSeriously though, like the entrepreneurial spirit, you know, I want to start something up. I want to do well. I want to solve problems. Maybe that is something we could apply to our own reputation and making sure that it's strong.
Al ElliottThere is a sort of an opposite to that. I'm saying that if someone is an entrepreneur, then They don't like taking instruction from anyone, and therefore it might be a little bit more difficult. I think though that that's just like the sort of like the opposite side of it. I do think it's a good turn of phrase. You've said something I've never thought about before, and I think I don't want to talk about it just off the top of my head because I don't know what I'm talking about. But I do think that surely everybody wants, you know, like Leanne said, most people want to do a good job. Most people want to be recognized for doing a good job.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIs it not as simple as what you've been saying and Leanne's been saying of just going, well, what does a good job look like? Let me just strive to do that every single day. And then all the hacks and tricks and, you know, building your internal brand up through an organization or entrepreneur, it doesn't matter because people just go, Bob, do you know what? He always delivers a day early and it's always exceptional work. And you know what? If he's got a problem or someone's got a problem on a Friday afternoon, he'll drop what he's doing, go over and help them, and then go back and finish his work. Be more Bob. Is that oversimplifying?
Leanne ElliottI don't think you're oversimplifying. What I like about this thought is that it gives us back an element of control in a work environment that at the moment feels like we're very much lacking control. In terms of those, those more introspective questions, which are perfect questions for anybody who is currently feeling unsafe at work, fearful of losing their job, or who have recently. been laid off is going through that introspection of what type of professional do I want to be? What does meaningful work look like to me? What do I want to be remembered for? What do I want to be known for? What work makes me proud? Who am I as a person? What are my values? Is it that I'm kind and that's central to my management style? Is it that I want to work with people who are smarter than me? Is it that I believe in equity and I want to help celebrate the voice of underrepresented groups in our society? It's such a wonderful moment to actually think about what do I want work to mean to me? And in that will come an intentionality around the behaviors you enact and the way you operate in the world and your workplace that you will craft that, whatever you want to call it, that brand, that presence, that, that Bob, as you said, Al. But I think it's a wonderful time to, to do that introspection and think about exactly what it is that you want to do, how you want to do it. where you want to do it. And with that, yeah, that intentionality will trickle over, over time. And yeah, in a world of uncertainty, what a wonderful way to feel like we're gaining, taking some control back. So in the spirit of that intention, being more Bob, there's nothing more true when you're running a podcast that has to have a specific theme. You make it based on the audience, based on what you want to say to the world, what you want to put out there. And as a podcaster or content creator of any time, of any kind, sometimes your focus changes over time because you refine and crystallize who you want to be and the message you want to send out into the world. So being that both of you are experienced podcast hosts, can you give us a perspective on how your show's thesis crystallization or focus has changed over time and what you've learned from it? Even about what culture is and isn't. When we started Truth, Lies and Work, it was very much about helping business owners and leaders embed best practice in environments that didn't have that support internally. So, didn't have organizational psychologists, maybe didn't have even HR professionals. And that intention is still very much at the core of the show, but how it's morphed over time has been very much in line with The chaos, for lack of a better word, that we've seen the world of work go through. And one of the big changes in that was actually us moving to 2 episodes a week. So in, in our, our second episode, um, that we launched, our weekly episode, we called This Week in Work because we wanted to call out the elephant in the room that nobody seemed to be pointing at, that it isn't okay for the Jamie Dimons of the world to scream and rant to his Gensers about, about how, you know, slacking they are.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt's not okay to make tens of thousands of layoffs in a blanket email that we saw from Elon Musk. Those practices aren't okay, and it has a serious impact on the human experience, but also organizational effectiveness and success. So for us, we started This Week in Work, and it's mainly 3 segments that we've settled into, is looking at the news stories of the week. So we had one recently that we got some great feedback on around BrewDog, which is a company in the UK that makes beer. They've had a very problematic culture for the last 2 years, open letters from previous and current employees calling out a fear of culture, um, all the ways that they're being discriminated against, um, not treated fairly. Nothing's changed. That was over the series of 2, 3 years that a letter would come out each year. And they announced last week that they're training 200 mental health first aiders to improve wellbeing. And it's like, that's not right. That's not okay. And that's not how you fix a toxic culture for a whole host of reasons. If only that, that's, that's not what mental health first aiders are for. They're not there for prevention. They're there for a point of crisis, helping a person in a, in a really difficult moment. But you're also again, putting the emphasis on the individual to try and solve a systemic organizational problem.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd that is just not okay. So it's calling out bad practice like that that is being promoted in mainstream news that this is a great thing an organization is doing. It's not. And this is why. So that's kind of what we talk about this week in terms of the news. We also highlight fresh voices or hot takes from people who maybe aren't as well established in their industry, but have something great to say. So it's giving them spaces for that. We've had occupational psychology students on there. We've had—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottbrand new entrepreneurs on there. Yeah, people who've got something interesting to say or a cause that they want to push forward. So, we had somebody talking recently about pay inequality and how the business they're setting up is helping to support that in terms of providing extra care support. And then we have the Workplace Surgery, where we actually have questions from listeners who will email in, get in touch through socials, and they're experiencing a problem in work. And a lot of those problems are actually now coming from Employees rather than necessarily business owners that we set out to be our core, our kind of core audience. We've had all sorts. What have we had, Al? There's so many.
Al ElliottUh, should I employ my spouse was one of them, which was quite funny because we both work together. Um, we've had all sorts from—
Leanne ElliottMy ex-boyfriend has just become my new boss.
Al ElliottYeah, there's some really, really interesting ones. The main thing that I hope that people are getting from the podcast as it matures, because every single week We're doing 2 episodes a week, and every single week we try and make it just 1% better. And some weeks we make it 1% worse, some weeks we make it 10% worse. But you know what it's like being a podcaster. You're just like fanatic about the sound, about the editing, about keeping it tight. But the core thing I think we want people to get is that culture isn't about having the perfect workplace. It's about just trying to be a decent human being. Whether you are a manager, whether you're a business owner, whether you're HR, whether you're just on the ground pulling the, you know, pulling the cord, just be a decent human being and try your very best. And over time, it will get better. As long as you keep listening to Truth, Lies and Work, of course. Of course.
Leanne ElliottI mean, if you haven't smashed the subscribe button and rated them 5 stars and left a review, what are you doing?
Al ElliottThank you.
Leanne ElliottI think another thing that we have tried to do over over the years as well is try and pursue ideas that are introduced to us through our Thursday episodes when we speak to an expert guest and have that inform our content. Um, so I think probably one that we've, that did really well was we spoke to, um, Dr. Sarah Hughes from Mind, CEO of Mind. Yeah, Dr. Sarah Hughes. Um, CEO of Mind, a huge mental health charity in the UK. And she was saying about how the conversation around mental health at work needs to expand Beyond people being mental wellness and mental illness. We're not talking enough about how we support people with schizophrenia in the workplace or bipolar in the workplace, post-traumatic stress in, in the workplace. So she kind of almost positioned this to us as a call for action. As content creators, we also need to be part of expanding that conversation. So since then, we've interviewed, we've had a guest on who calls himself the schizophrenic hippie, who's doing incredible advocacy work about how to live and work with schizophrenia. We've had an expert in psychopathy come on and talk about actually how we have, there is 1% of our population is psychopathic. Therefore, if you're an organization of 10,000 people, there's a fair chance you're going to have some people in there that are psychopathic. How do we navigate that? Is it the worst thing? Is there maybe some roles that these people could be great in? So, it's moments like that as well. It's picking up what we learn from people who are infinitely smarter than we are. And figuring out ways and how we as podcasters can expand that conversation for our learning and for our audience as well.
Al ElliottThat sounds to me like an amazing mic drop moment. Leanne, can you remind us again where people can find the podcast?
Leanne ElliottYeah, you can head over to truthliesandwork.com, or we're available wherever you find your podcasts on our This Week in Work episodes. And we also post on YouTube. So, if you wanna watch us as well as listen to us, you can head over to there, Truth, Lies and Work. Truth, Lies and Work. Truth, Lies, and Work.
Al ElliottTruth, Lies, and Work. It's like, it's Truth, Lies, and Work on everything. Thank you so much for your time and your generosity to share your experiences. Oh, well, thank you so much for having us. You ask such great questions and leave such great pauses. Time flies and it's a genuine pleasure being on. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such a pleasure. And you are, you're such great interviewers and you know the buttons to push to get both of us on, on our little soapbox for a little while. So yeah, thank you for holding, holding this session for us and making it so much fun. Oh, it was such a good chat with Nick and John. They're such amazing podcasters. I mean, listening back, there was so much in there.
Al ElliottYeah, and it sounds a bit weird talking about ourselves on a different podcast, but the clarity bit in there I really liked. When you know what good looks like in your role, everything just feels a bit more solid because you can focus, you're more confident, and your manager actually knows what you're bringing to the table.
Leanne ElliottYeah, clarity isn't talked about enough, actually, especially in terms of role clarity, because when you don't have it, You end up completely second-guessing yourself all the time, and that's when it can become really exhausting.
Al ElliottYeah, exactly. And that links into the other thing we touched on, which is managers needing support too. If they don't have someone to take the pressure, it just ends up rolling downhill onto the team, and we've seen that happen quite a lot.
Leanne ElliottYeah, support networks are so important when you're a manager, whether that's your peers, whether it's a coach, whether it's just someone to vent to. Without that type of outlet, you are gonna feel it and your whole team is gonna feel it as well. Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd then there was that reminder about the people you really do remember at work. It's not usually the loudest or the flashiest. It's the ones who make things easier for everyone else. The steady, reliable, decent people you actually want on your team. They are Bob. Be more Bob.
Leanne ElliottBe more Bob. Be more Bob. If you did miss part 1 of that conversation and you just dove straight in with part 2, you rebel, uh, go back to our August episodes. I think it's number 224. And if you want more from Jon and Nick, of course you do, go and check out the Nerd Journey podcast. They've got a huge back catalogue. It is made for people in tech, but honestly, it's useful for anyone. And before we wrap up, I just wanted to say a little thank you. Al, I'm not even sure you know this yet, but we've just recently passed 1.4 million downloads this year.
Al ElliottThis year alone?
Leanne ElliottIt's not—
Al Elliottand it's only September.
Leanne ElliottI know, mind-blowing.
Al ElliottIt really is. Now, to be fair, it only happens because you lot You beautiful, beautiful listeners keep listening, you keep sharing it, and you keep sending us your questions, which is really, really important because we are going back next week to the traditional Tuesday episodes. So if you've got questions about workplace prep for the Workplace Clinic, please send them in. Just look in the show notes, you'll see our email there.
Leanne ElliottYou will. And as we talked about in that episode with Nick and John, the show has evolved over the years and we want to keep evolving, evolving it so it stays interesting and relevant for you. And we want your help with that. Tell us what you'd like more of. or who you think we should be talking to next, you can always find us on LinkedIn or just drop us a little message.
Al ElliottYes, I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of Truth, Lies and Work.
Leanne ElliottBye, love you. Bye.
Al ElliottLove you. Bye.