Episode 248 · 11 November 2025 · 57:10
What Celebrity Traitors can teach us about lying. PLUS! Trump's war on woke, quiet-quitting success and the work impact of bad music.
What Celebrity Traitors can teach us about lying. PLUS! Trump's war on woke, quiet-quitting success and the work impact of bad music.
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Quiet-quitter rises to senior leadership
news roundup#quiet-quitting#career#leadership
Impact of music misfit at work
news roundup#music#workplace#culture
Truth or Lie: Can you spot a liar by body language?
truth or lie#body-language#lying#deception
Workplace Surgery: Trained team to stop thinking
workplace surgery#training#critical-thinking#management
Workplace Surgery: Occupational health from employer's perspective
workplace surgery#occupational-health#employer#wellness
Workplace Surgery: Managing first remote hire without micromanaging
workplace surgery#remote-work#micromanagement#management
Show notes
Trump's War on Woke, Quiet-Quitting Success & the Real Cost of Christmas Music
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down Trump's DEI shake-up at America's top workplace civil rights agency, the 50-year-old manager who "quiet-quit" his way to quadrupling his net worth, and the research proving that Christmas music misfit is genuinely bad for retail workers' wellbeing. Plus, in Truth or Lie (inspired by Celebrity Traitors UK): can you actually spot a liar by their body language?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Trump appoints DEI critic to lead the EEOC The AP reports that Andrea Lucas is now chair of the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Critics say she has already reduced protections for transgender workers and limited investigations into discriminatory practices. Supporters frame her appointment as a shift toward "merit-based, race-neutral equality." Source →
2. The quiet-quitter who rose to senior leadership A mid-level manager shared how a decade of reduced overwork, firm boundaries and radical delegation lowered stress and unexpectedly accelerated both career progression and wealth. It raises practical questions about sustainability, workload design and the hidden rewards of saying no. Source →
3. The impact of music misfit at work New research shows that when background music doesn't match what employees need, mood declines and mental fatigue increases. In retail and hospitality settings, "misfit" days also reduce cooperation and customer-facing helpfulness. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: "Can You Really Spot a Liar by Their Body Language?"
Inspired by Celebrity Traitors UK — where confident guesses were almost always wrong — Leanne looks at what the evidence actually shows. Across decades of studies, accuracy rarely rises above chance. Common cues like eye contact, posture shifts or nervous gestures have no reliable link to dishonesty. Real insight comes from analysing story structure, consistency and detail, not fidgeting or facial expressions.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Dependency: "I think I accidentally trained my team to stop thinking for themselves — how do I fix it?"
- Occupational Health: "What's the real role of Occupational Health from an employer's perspective?"
- Remote management: "How do I manage my first remote hire without becoming a micromanager?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
🎧 Coming Up Thursday
A conversation with Nick Power, one of LinkedIn's most distinctive voices and a leading figure in Weird LinkedIn, on authenticity, burnout and the changing face of professionalism.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottPresident Trump appoints a DEI critic to lead America's top workplace civil rights agency. She's already dropping discrimination cases and challenging diversity programmes. So what does that mean for fairness at work when the policy frames diversity as anti-merit?
Al ElliottAlso this week, a 50-year-old manager decided to quiet-quit a decade ago, stopped caring, delegated everything, started saying no. The result is completely unexpected. So is this a cautionary tale or something else entirely?
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, inspired by Celebrity Traitors UK, can you spot a liar by reading their body language? The fidgeting, the eye contact, the nervous giggle— does any of it actually work?
Al ElliottPlus, in this week's Workplace Surgery, a manager accidentally made their team too dependent. How do you rebuild autonomy when everyone looks to you for the answer? This is Truth, Lies and Work.
Leanne ElliottThe award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo let's get right into it after a very quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello, hello. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's also Leanne's birthday week as well. So Leanne's birthday's coming up, which is an exciting time.
Leanne Elliott40 plus 1.
Al Elliott40 plus 1. Yep. Yeah. Well, 30 plus 11. If you want to just do that.
Leanne Elliott39 plus 2.
Al Elliott39 plus 2. And also because we live in Mostar, it looks like it's gonna be really nice weather. It's gonna be like 19, 20 degrees on your birthday.
Leanne ElliottPast November, that is it.
Al ElliottNot bad at all. Anyway, back to Leanne's favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup. It is our cue that Jingle, please. Jingle is being queued. Okay, what have you seen? I suspect it's using the T-word.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Warner. No, it's President Trump has— do you know what, I don't talk about, uh, PT very often because I usually get trolled for it, but this one just— it's just too in our world to not talk about. So President Trump has chosen a DEI critic to lead a work— the workplace civil rights agency again.
Al ElliottSo this is someone who's against DEI.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd their job is workplace civil rights.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOkay, this is gonna end well.
Leanne ElliottIsn't it? Isn't it?
Al ElliottWhat's the RuPaul thing? Let's see how this turns out.
Leanne ElliottLet's see how this turns out. So yeah, according to the Associated Press— Pressed?
Al ElliottI think they're like, they prefer to be called Associated Press, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottThe Associated Press. Press president. Donald Trump has appointed Andrea Lucas as chair of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. That's the country's top agency responsible for enforcing workplace discrimination laws. Now, Andrea isn't new to the EEOC, as it's, uh, shortened to. She was first appointed by Trump back in 2020 and has been confirmed for a second 5-year term. But this new promotion does make her one of the most powerful voices on workplace equality in America. It is also described as one of the clearest signals yet that the administration is moving to dismantle diversity, equity, and inclusion programs that became widespread during and after the pandemic. So in her statement, Andrea Lucas said she was honored to serve and would focus on upholding merit-based, colorblind equality, arguing that many DEI initiatives have gone too far. Of course, there are some critics, including dozens of civil rights groups and Democratic lawmakers. They're seeing very differently. They are accusing her of politicizing the agency, rolling back protections for transgender workers, and undermining Congress's original intent for the EEOC. The Associated Press reports also that since stepping in as acting chair, she's dropped lawsuits supporting transgender employees, increased scrutiny on gender identity complaints, and stopped investigating some cases based on disparate impact liability. which is a legal concept used to challenge hiring or pay practices that disadvantage particular demographic groups, minority groups, of course. She's also prioritized a string of religious discrimination cases, including one against the Mayo Clinic for refusing a COVID vaccine exemption. So there you go, Al. The reaction has been predictably quite polarized. Uh, the National Women's Law Center also had a say. They said her appointment has weaponized the agency against hard-working people. Well, on the other side of the argument, conservative groups like the Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty have praised her as a champion of equality and race neutrality. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottWhy can't just we all be nice to each other? Why can't we just all just get on? I— right, okay, I can see from— I, I've said before, I'm not a fan of Trump, but I am a huge fan of the way that he markets himself and the way that he He builds his own personal brand. I think it is incredibly evil, in my opinion.
Leanne ElliottDictator energy.
Al ElliottYes, very much dictator energy. Chairman Trump. But, but with this, I can see what he's doing. He's basically going, okay, I am really coming down on the idea of this is anti— this is anti-woke. There are a lot of people behind me. My supporters are anti-woke. So therefore I will bring this in so everyone goes, God, he's doing a great job. The other thing is, it's just America. We had someone on. In fact, he's coming out. I think this Thursday, is it? LinkedIn guy?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottSo coming out this Thursday and he said, he said there are terrible things going on in America, but the most biggest problem is polarization. Is this them or us? And this is just more, it's like the whole point of diversity, equity, and inclusion, inclusion being the key word there, is that there's no them and us. And now this seems like the head of inclusion is going, well, there's definitely a them and us.
Leanne ElliottGod, it's exhausting, isn't it? How long have we got left of Trump, assuming that he doesn't change the Constitution and run for president indefinitely? How— when did he get elected?
Al ElliottOh, I don't know. Was it 2 years ago?
Leanne ElliottOh, I don't know, but it's gonna— it's gonna be a long 5 years, or however long it is. The thing is, right, oh, it's, it's, it's, it's not what this woman stands for, Andrea Lucas, that I have an issue with, because actually, in terms of making decisions merit-based, looking at things from a point of neutrality, yes, yes, that's not— I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with that. I think the problem is when we talk about the difference between equality and equity. And Adam Grant talks about this in Hidden Potential, where he says that talent is evenly distributed, opportunity is not. So when you take that into consideration, the context of of achievements, what I have achieved as a white middle-class woman growing up in a 2-parent stable home is going to be— if it's— if I've achieved the same as somebody who has grown up in a very tough economic environment with lots of disruption, lots of discrimination, potentially violence in the home, and achieves the same things that I do by the same age, who has achieved more, right? Because I've not had to overcome the same challenges that this other person has. So looking at context is so important when we're talking about merit and achievement. And my fear is Andrea ain't gonna think about that in terms of context. She's just gonna think about the achievements that have been, been achieved. So I think it just oversimplifies something which is very, very Very challenging. And let's be honest as well, you know, psychologists and practitioners in this field have admitted for some time we haven't been getting this right. The policies that we brought in, the programs we brought in haven't been serving the minorities in our organizations the way, the way that they should or intended to. But this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and I think it's also just a, a nice polished mask for what is actually huge discrimination. And the rolling back of human rights.
Al ElliottYeah. And if you're interested in this kind of thing, then definitely go and check out Inclusion in Marketing by Sonia Thompson, part of this HubSpot network. We're not just saying that because she's a sister show. We are, we're saying that because she approaches this pretty much weekly.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, let's brighten the mood, shall we, my love? What have you seen this week?
Al ElliottOkay, so I was reading on— now don't, don't judge me.
Leanne ElliottI'll be the judge of that.
Al ElliottOn my Google News feed, I don't think it's called Google News, whatever it is on—
Leanne ElliottGoogs.
Al ElliottOn my Goos News, something, a little thing came up with Cheeseburger, which is just a trash website. The content's like so thin you could read your newspaper through it. It's just—
Leanne ElliottIs it more Smash than Quarter Pounder? It is.
Al ElliottIt's just really, really rubbish. But it did. And basically what they do with Cheeseburger is they go onto link, they go onto Reddit, they find threads, and then they just do screenshots of it and then get AI to fill in stuff in between. It's just, honestly, it's just absolute rubbish. It's the equivalent of an empty, empty calorie of of news. However, this story did get my attention, so I went to the original Reddit, um, sub. Essentially what this guy is saying is he's turning 50. 10 years ago he hit his FIRE number, which is financial independence, retire early. That's what FIRE stands for.
Leanne ElliottAt 40?
Al ElliottAt 40. Yes.
Leanne ElliottCongratulations, friend.
Al ElliottYeah. He had $2 million in cumulative assets. I know, I know. So he, he thought he was the smartest and hottest person in the, in, in the room. He wanted to He wanted to retire, but his wife, no interest in retiring. She's a teacher. So he decided basically to quiet quit his job. He's a middle-level manager. Um, and he just basically says, to be blunt again, I stopped, I decided to stop giving a flying— and you can work out what the—
Leanne ElliottUgh.
Al ElliottThe alliterative word there is then. Uh, no one called it quiet quitting back then, but he just basically, he did a few things. He said he stopped sending overly formal emails. Um, every time a project team member was run thin, I pushed the timeline aggressively back and hard. He stopped working after hours. He put family first and missed deadlines if he had to. And he discovered that his work life became infinitely easier. So his direct reports started to love him and trust him much more. And basically he just continued over the next 3 or 4 years just doing this. He was basically just offloading every single task that was given to him to someone else. If he found that someone else was running, like he called it run thin, so someone else was like overloaded. He just went back to the people who were the stakeholders in the project and go, nope, not gonna happen. And then if they pushed back, if the people, the big bosses pushed back, he'd push back and go, no, it ain't gonna happen. People stopped arguing with me after a while and learned to trust me. Life was great and I had completely eliminated stress from my life. I was financially independent. I'm now number 3 or 4 at this company. I've followed this path for 10 years. My net worth is close to the big $10 million. He also has apparently about another $7 to $9 million when the company's being sold because he's got some shares or stuff. My main question is, is this the right way to go? Because we— you always say quiet quitting, no, that's a bad thing, that's disengagement. But what this guy, is he doing quiet quitting? What's going on?
Leanne ElliottWhat was his final summary? Were you gonna give me that first, or—
Al ElliottI can give you that first. Yeah, so he said, my point of this post is I see so many young people, especially who share their stories here, work themselves to an unhealthy amount of stressful jobs Trying to save enough money to buy their freedom. It doesn't have to be like this. You should never give your life, energy, or anything to your job. Focus on the minimum amount of work, getting stuff done. Delegate everything you possibly can, and don't be afraid to say no. Is that a good life lesson for younger people?
Leanne ElliottBroadly speaking, I think yes.
Al ElliottMm-hmm. I didn't expect you to say that.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThe thing is, I just want to go back to one thing you said that I think quiet quitting is bad. I don't think quiet quitting is bad. I think quiet quitting is essentially setting healthy boundaries within an organisation that isn't investing in you the same way that you've been investing in them.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottI don't know what I think this comes down to, what is just really misunderstanding from a lot of people in terms of what management looks like and what success needs to be. Burnout isn't a badge of honour. It doesn't mean that you work yourself to the bone and that the more successful you know, your career is going to be. What this person has done has empowered his people to take on stretch tasks, which is hugely engaging and motivating. He has pushed back on unreasonable workloads and deadlines in a hard no way. That means that people will have to change either the workload, the resources available, or the deadlines because it's a hard no. And then he's taken his, his own his own world and made it more balanced in terms of spending more time with his friends and family, not thinking that this work is my entire identity, and becoming much more balanced in his view. And with that, will enjoy high levels of wellbeing, which then makes us more productive and high-performing at work. It's what we always talk about on this show, but it's, it's such a good example because it shows how we have been— we have normalised stress and burnout to such a toxic place that hearing somebody set healthy boundaries, empowering their team, he's interpreting that as, I don't give a fudge.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd he's saying, this is how outrageous it is that I didn't care, and now I'm, I'm doing really well at work. It's like, no, that's why you're doing really well at work, because you're not a control freak of a manager. You're not holding on to everything. You're not holding on to expectations that are wildly unfair. You're actually just putting your team first and yourself first. And that funnily enough has shown in, in psychology research that that turns into higher productivity, performance, and wellbeing. So I salute it, but I'm very sad that we have normalized toxic workplace behaviours to a point where this is like, lol, look what I did.
Al ElliottYeah, it's a really good point. I think there's, there's, there's a problem. I think that there's, there's, there's people like gurus out there who go get rich quick. So do this and you'll make $10K MRR, bro. Um, and they usually got broccoli haircuts and, and they're on Twitter with them. And so you, you go, okay, so there's that. And we all know that's bad because no one gets rich quick. But at the same time, people think that then the opposite of that is the right way, which is you work hard for 40 years, you take the shit. A bit like there's a bit in Layer Cake, the movie Layer Cake, which is great. And it says you start off at the bottom, um, and you take shit. Then you move further up and you take a little bit less shit. Then you move further up and further up and Take even less shit. Then you're in the rarefied atmosphere where you don't even know anything about shit. Welcome to the layer cake, son. And it's such a great, great scene. And it's basically, it's showing that you have to work that way up. However, like you said, if the work gets done and people are enjoying their work, life doesn't have to be stressful. Job doesn't have to be stressful. There are so many shortcuts. And let's be honest, if you think about your own job, not you, Liam, listener, think about your own job.
Leanne ElliottLast week.
Al ElliottIn, let's say you worked 35 hours last week. How many of those hours actually, actually did something for you, for your team, or for your business? I bet up to 50% was just replying to vacuous emails, asking for updates on stuff that takes time away from you actually doing the stuff or getting involved in little workplace politics or anything like that. Like you said, just, it's all bullshit. Walk away.
Leanne ElliottThe, the sad thing is with this person, because they did have that financial independence, they can afford to, to say no and push back. And not really care about the consequences.
Al ElliottYeah, good point.
Leanne ElliottSo it also says a lot about, about as a business owner, are you allowing people to have these conversations with you? That's what psychological safety is, that somebody can have a conversation like this and then not get sacked or demoted or punished in any other way. Um, so yeah, there's so many themes that we talk about all the time, but the biggest one for me is just how sad it is that we've normalized this type of behaviour as slacking off. Yeah. When really it's actually just the healthy, balanced way to navigate work and life.
Al ElliottWell, there you go. You heard it here first. Leanne, what else have you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottWell, do you know what else got my beef boiling this week, Al?
Al ElliottBeef boiling? That's not a phrase.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is.
Al ElliottDo you know what grinds my beef?
Leanne ElliottDo you know what grinds my beef? Chris.
Al ElliottDon't go to that website, grindmybeef.com. That's a very bad website. Sorry, you were saying, Chris?
Leanne ElliottChris Ross is such a sleazy old man sometimes.
Al ElliottReally? I was actually thinking more about abattoirs and making beef burgers.
Leanne ElliottOh, okay.
Al ElliottBut it just goes to show that you are a bit of a slimy old woman.
Leanne ElliottMaybe. Maybe. Old woman. How dare you, sir.
Al ElliottOkay, so you're not an old woman, but let's hear you chirp on about something that's annoyed you this week.
Leanne ElliottOh, well, screw you. You, do you know what? You take this one.
Al ElliottSo what's, what's annoyed you?
Leanne ElliottChristmas.
Al ElliottIn general, you love Christmas. You cannot wait for the first day.
Leanne ElliottNot on the 11th of November, I don't.
Al ElliottFair enough.
Leanne ElliottIt's just so annoying, right? As Al mentioned, it is, it is my birthday month, and it's mid-month my birthday. And I never remember as a kid my birthday being very close to Christmas, right? Like, I don't remember seeing lots of Christmas stuff around on my birthday. And it does, it actually does get earlier and earlier. And I feel for, I feel people in the UK because I'm pretty sure I saw things on Instagram that the Christmas decorations were out in like September. At least we managed to hit the 1st of November. But when I was shopping over the weekend, it's just, it's the same music that's just on repeat in every shop. It's obviously, it's Mariah Carey, it's Wham!, it's Sleighed, it's on a loop. Maybe you get the odd Paul McCartney if it's, if it's a high-level shopping experience, but otherwise—
Al ElliottYou're simply having a wonderful Shopping time.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottYes, you go.
Leanne ElliottBut yeah, but it's just the bell, isn't it? So I was kind of like walking around going, oh, this is so annoying. And then I thought, could you imagine having to work in this environment where you are listening to these 4 or 5 songs on repeat every day?
Al ElliottOh no.
Leanne ElliottFor at least 8 weeks.
Al ElliottNo, I honestly couldn't. That would drive me insane.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it would. But then I thought, well, what does it— does it drive you insane? What does the research say, Al? So I did a little research.
Al ElliottLike a mini truth or lie.
Leanne ElliottA mini truth or lie. But yeah, just to see if we are actually torturing poor retail workers at this time of year. So I came across a paper in the Journal of Applied Psychology, Al, if you're interested.
Al ElliottGood job.
Leanne ElliottBy Kathleen Keeler and colleagues. And it looked at what happens when the music playing at work doesn't fit what employees need, called Music Misfit. So their study looked at 166 full-time employees, and they were asked what kind of music would help them in that moment at work. Would it be something upbeat to boost energy? Would it be calm to help them focus? Then they were asked to complete a short task while this background music played, either matched their needs or completely mismatched. What they found is when the music fit, people felt more positive and less mentally tired, but when it didn't, their positive mood dropped by 40%.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottAnd their mental fatigue rose by about the same amount.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottSo basically, I've come in positive, feeling energized, and within the space of a couple of minutes, I'm now in a bad mood and I'm exhausted.
Al ElliottSo what we're saying is that if someone has to come in and listen to Wham!, Mariah Carey, all that kind of thing over and over again, regardless of what mood they're in, that will almost certainly drop their mood by about 40%.
Leanne ElliottAlmost certainly. But then we are— then of course, is this another generalization? Are we taking findings from a small study and applying it to a much bigger concept. So then I looked a bit more into it and actually found a real-world study that followed 68 retail and hospitality workers across cafes, restaurants, and supermarkets for 3 weeks. Each day they completed, completed 3 quick surveys before, during, and after their shift, rating their energies, emotions, and how well the background music fit what they needed. And the results— wow. So when the music matched their needs, staff felt more upbeat, more engaged, and less mentally drained. When it didn't, their mood slumped, and it didn't just stay in their heads. So on misfit days, workers reported fewer helpful behaviours towards colleagues and customers.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottThey were less cooperative, less positive, and more likely to just go through the motions. So basically disengage, not gonna help you, get out my face because Mariah Carey is doing my nut in.
Al ElliottSo let me ask you, so you said that if it fits what the workers need. Now you've got, you're going to Starbucks and you've got one person who's dead into death metal, Sepultura is their kind of like, that's what they're looking for. And then you've got someone else who likes a little bit of country music and there's someone else, that's me by the way, I like a bit of country music. Yeah, I do too. And then there's someone else who just likes Fleetwood Mac, for example. Well, who doesn't like Fleetwood Mac?
Leanne ElliottBut we can't, no matter what plays, we can't We can't always tickle all those pickles, but I think this is where intention is really important. The studies did actually go on to give some advice or some recommendations for managers, especially in retail and hospitality, but actually anywhere where you're, you're looking, as you say, at these different types of tasks and moods. So the first one is give staff a bit of an input. Maybe ask them what music they'd like on. Those poor people in the back office, they're not getting a vote. Just one in every 3 songs. Just give us a break from the bells, you know.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThe second recommendation was pay attention to volume and tempo. So even the right songs at the wrong intensity can be exhausting. And remember that not everyone processes noise the same way. So if you've got somebody who's particularly sensitive, then rotating roles or giving them quieter spaces could make a difference. So if you're currently working in retail, and hospitality, my heart goes out to you. Go and speak to your manager, maybe suggest that you have a bit of input onto the playlist, maybe see if there's a way to throw in some slower songs amongst all the, all the jumpiness. And if you do need that quiet space, do have that conversation with your manager so you can, you can find it. Yeah, it was something that I, as I said, it was a little bee in my bonnet that I wanted to look into. So I did. But as for Christmas music, it's still November. Behave.
Al ElliottBehave. There you go. You said something before, break from the bells. I think that's probably— that's a really good X hashtag. So there you go. So we'll have a break from the bells march on, on Parliament. That's what we'll do. Actually, no, we can't talk about marches and, and PT in the same, in the same thing. So no, let's leave that. Leave that. Okay. So moving swiftly on to a break. After the break, we've got Truth or Lie where we start talking about, um, spotting a liar. Now, if you've not watched all of Celebrity Traitors, I will tell you all about it. I'll tell you how to avoid this in a second. Okay.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that Encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. So we've got Truth or Lie where we talk about can you instinctively spot a lie? And then we've got the world famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. If you've not watched, if you've not watched Celebrity Traitors or not finished UK Celebrity Traitors, Then I suggest you, I suggest, in fact, I'll tell you what I'll do. When I'm editing this, I will record the timestamp that you can fast forward to. Yeah, I've just finished editing this and it's minute 26. So fast forward to minute 26 and we should have stopped talking about the winner of the Traitors. We watched it late and we almost, we were listening to Radio 1 on Sounds and we—
Leanne ElliottRadio 1, lol, it was Radio 2.
Al ElliottWas it Radio 2?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it was just Scott Mills.
Al ElliottScott Mills on Radio 1 though.
Leanne ElliottNot anymore.
Al ElliottOh my God, I'm so old. Anyway, so truth or lie. So this is our weekly myth-busting segment where we take popular psychologically— psychologically claims. Yeah, that's, that's the way you say it. And ask whether they're true or whether they collapse the moment you look at the evidence. So, so far we've learned that left-brain creativity isn't actually a thing. Maslow never drew a triangle.
Leanne ElliottAnd yes, that caused some waves, that one, Al.
Al ElliottI bet it did. I bet it did. And yes, your vibe does attract your tribe. So we've been binging the Celebrity Traitors UK This week. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. I watched the original Traitors. You didn't, did you? This was your first foray in.
Leanne ElliottNo, my first Traitors experience. Loved it.
Al ElliottIf you don't know anything about this, basically Celebrity Traitors is there's 19 celebrities, or in fact, the normal Traitors, 19 people in a room. It's like Wink Merge if you've ever played that. Everyone gets blindfolded and then 3 people get touched on the shoulder and go, you're traitors. The rest of them they call faithfuls. And the whole point is that at the end of each episode, they try and, they try and vote out someone who's a, who's a, who's a, Uh, a traitor. And then if they get it right, then it's all celebrations. If they get it wrong, then they voted out one of their own. Okay, so every episode they were convinced they'd decided who the traitor was.
Leanne ElliottConvinced.
Al ElliottUp until, I believe, the semi-final, I think was the first time they actually got someone right. Uh, celebrities were, were saying, um, they were looking at people's body language, they were looking at people avoiding eye contact, looking— people looking to the side, giggling, all that kind of stuff. So The question is, all the behavior that we think is someone, is someone lying? Like I've heard, if you look to the left when you're talking, you're creating something. If you look to the right, you're recalling something. Is this true?
Leanne ElliottWhich one? The left and right thing, or is that anything?
Al ElliottWell, start with that.
Leanne ElliottStart with that. Is that true? No, it's not true.
Al ElliottReally? I was, do you know what? When I was a kid, I was a kid, back in 1843 when I was 20. I think I went on quite a few dates trying to impress women, and I was telling them like, oh yeah, yeah, that's exactly how you tell someone's lying. And they were like, really, Al? Didn't go on a second date.
Leanne ElliottNo, I think recall has been correlated with that in terms of looking up. But yeah, anyway, it was so funny to watch it because they were so convinced. And because, you know, as a viewer, you do have this burden of knowledge, so it's hard for you to kind of know exactly who you'd think. But the thing, the one that really got me was when, and this is spoiler alert, you've been warned, The one person who totally cracked in front of everybody, Alan Carr, who couldn't actually get out the words, I am a faithful, without giggling, won the show.
Al ElliottYeah. Everyone believed he was a faithful.
Leanne ElliottEveryone believed he was a faithful.
Al ElliottHe was the last remaining traitor.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo I think that probably sets us up in terms of what the outcome's going to be here. But let's take a good look because there are many TV shows that that play with this idea, including one that you love, Al. What's it called?
Al ElliottUh, Lie to Me with Tim Roth, which is— which from a psychological point of view is an absolute crock of crap.
Leanne ElliottI can't watch it.
Al ElliottI can't watch it. However, if you don't— if you're not a psychologist, it's a good show. It's fun. It's just silly. It's like House, but— Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo—
Al ElliottAnyway, carry on.
Leanne ElliottThe question is, can you tell if someone is lying just by watching Their body language.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottWell, I mean, there are some reasons why people believe that behaviour does reveal deception.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo first of all, let's not take it for granted that lying does require cognitive effort. It's hard. So the theory is that sometimes that effort will leak out. So in 2023, a review from 2 psychologists in Norway summarised dozens of modern deception experiments. What do we call that, Al?
Al ElliottIt's called a longitudinal study, is that right?
Leanne ElliottNo, it's called a meta-analysis.
Al ElliottOh man.
Leanne ElliottBut you were close. So these studies use controlled tasks. So basically participants might watch a staged event or commit a mock theft or complete an interview where half are instructed to lie and half are told to tell the truth. Their responses are recorded, often with very high-quality audio video, and then analysed frame by frame and word by word, much like your friend off of your television show.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAcross these controlled tasks, one pattern consistently appears, and that is that lying is mentally demanding because liars must create a story, hold the real version in their mind, keep it all consistent, monitor the interviewer's reaction, regulate their face and tone, suppress anything that might look suspicious. And that mental workload does Create pressure, and under that pressure, small things can surface. So in terms of this review, it noted slightly longer pauses before answering, a higher vocal pitch, more verbal slips such as hesitations, repeated words, or corrections, and stiffer or more contained posture. So these aren't necessarily reliable signals that you can use in the real world because these people have been put in very specific experimental conditions. But cognitively speaking, yes, they're real. The effort is detectable.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne Elliottwhen we're in controlled lab conditions. The other thing about deception study, which is really interesting, is that these stereotypes are universal. So in 2010, there was a review that summarised research from multiple countries, and it found that almost everyone believes the same thing across cultures, which is very rare in psychology research, usually the main kind of limitation of studies. So across cultures, people believe that liars avoid eye contact, they fidget, they touch their face, they touch their face, they shift nervously, and they suppress.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne Elliotttheir natural expressions. Police officers believed it, judges believed it, students believed it, customs officers believed it, business leaders believed it. Everyone believed it universally. This idea feels instinctive. Then the third thing that kind of makes us wonder if maybe we can tell when people are lying is there is a small number of individuals that perform above chance and have been studied. But this study often gets misquoted. So this comes from a psychologist called Paul Ekman, who identified a tiny group of people who perform noticeably above chance at detecting lies. He called them wizards, and he said that these people are, are, yeah, better than chance at finding liars. But when you actually dig into how they do it, they're not looking for stereotypical cues. They're not looking for a lack of eye contact. They're not looking for touching the face. What they do is actually far more analytical. They track story structure. They look at where the details align logically. They notice temporal consistency. So that's whether the timeline changes under pressure. They compare emotion and content. So does the emotional tone match the context of the conversation? They spot overcontrol when someone sounds rehearsed rather than lived, and they attend to speech patterns. So those small hesitations or corrections that Um, appear, which we have also seen in lab settings. So the, the problem is, is that there is some truth to it, but it's either in a very controlled environment or these so-called wizards, and there's not many of them, are actually using a completely different way, a completely different approach to, to spot out lies. I also remember as well talking to Ryan Sherman on the show. who said that they did research with CIA agents and found that they were better than the average person at picking out liars. And when they asked them about that, they said that they just assumed everyone lies.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo, if you just assume everyone lies, you're going to pick out all the liars, right? So, there is some truth to it, but it's not quite what we're kind of— has been popularized in the media and on TV. In terms of the case for against, what does the Decades of research actually show people are, as I said, only slightly better than chance at spotting lies. So, the same 2010 review, which is the most comprehensive study that we have, it looked at mock crimes, mock crime scenarios, real police interviews, video-based deception tasks, cross-cultural comparisons, trained versus untrained observers, and high-stakes and low-stakes lies. Across all methods, The accuracy rate was 54%.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottEssentially guessing. Essentially guessing. And the really sad-making thing is professionals did not outperform the public.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo, in some studies, police officers performed worse due to overconfidence in stereotypes. You know, that's a big issue. Judges, anyone kind of working in a world where you might think that that would be an advantage or they'd have more practice at it, were no better. than your average person. So yeah, not, not great. In terms of stereotypical cues, they are not found to correlate with lying. And this is actually where the evidence is the clearest. So, so in these studies, we had trained coders who use structured behavioural analysis— analysis, that word out— analysis systems, which basically means, right? Thank you. Getting the thumbs up from Al. If you're looking at A transcript or something, a coder's going to go through and pick out anything that might link to what you're looking for, like a fidget, a gaze in a certain direction, facial expressions, touches, posture changes, all that type of stuff. They found no correlation between these types of behaviours and lying. So that doesn't really stack up. Eye contact didn't predict lying, fidgeting didn't, face touching didn't, looking left didn't predict lying, looking right didn't predict lying.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottNone of it predicted, predicted lying. And then finally, in terms of these microexpressions, which I know you're a big fan of, Al, microexpression research often gets cited as the solution because we just need to be a bit more, bit more detailed. But the studies are conducted with slowed-down video and expert coders who can freeze frames and analyse facial muscle movements. In those scenarios, yes, we might pick out some small clues. But in real-time human interaction, microexpressions are too fast to see. They appear inconsistently. They indicate emotional conflict, not deception, and they cannot reliably distinguish truth from lies. So scientifically interesting, but practically very, very limited. So in terms of can we use body language to tell if somebody is lying? No.
Al ElliottNo. Now here's a question that did surprise me, 'cause I honestly thought you could. But not because I've lied to me, because I know that that's just a bit rubbish. But if it, although you can't decide or can't tell if someone's lying, is it still worthwhile all of us trying to avoid doing those things if we can? Because the majority of people across the world believe that that is a sign of lying. True.
Leanne ElliottYeah, true, true. Yeah. There's an arc.
Al ElliottYou're hearing Leanne thinking in real time here.
Leanne ElliottYou are. Yes, there is, there is a danger, isn't there, that people are going to think that we're being deceptive because they have this universal belief that that's how we pick out a liar. And Traitors was a perfect example of that. All these different things that they cited that was just nonsense. The thing is though, you're still, by doing that and being so conscious about how you're moving, it's still going to create that cognitive strain. And it is that strain that sometimes shows or is interpreted as deception. So you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, basically. So I think—
Al ElliottSo if you try really hard to do all the opposite of what people think is lying, then it comes back and people are going, hmm, they're spending a bit long to, you know, yeah, okay, I get it. I get it. So basically just tell the truth.
Leanne ElliottTell the truth. Yeah. I think to summarize it all, because we covered a lot there. But across decades of research, Al, and this is where psychologists get a little bit frustrated with the pop psych world occasionally and the overgeneralisations, decades of research, the stereotypical body language cues do not work in terms of detecting deception. Overall accuracy in terms of people identifying lies is barely above chance. Training does not improve performance. Microexpressions are not usable in real time, and professionals know better than the public. So yeah, the key thing here is in terms of looking into what the person is saying, not necessarily how they're saying it. So that consistency, that clarity, whether details line up, all that stuff. Yeah, behaviour won't tell you the truth, but content and questioning might.
Al ElliottLove it. Love it. If you've got a question for the Truth or Lies segment, then Drop us an email, check on the show notes, you can find all our details in there. Okay, on to my favourite time of the week, which is the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist. She, she knows an awful lot. And what she doesn't know, she has friends. Hello, Harry, if you're listening. He's a brand new person who's gonna be answering questions soon. So Harry's in— Harry's like an expert in occupational health, is that right?
Leanne ElliottYes, he is.
Al ElliottAnd then we've got the Curve Group where we get Kat and Liam, who often pop up and answer technical or legal HR issues. Today, I believe, Leanne, all 3 of these are answered by you. Is that correct?
Leanne ElliottNo, we have one by— from Harry.
Al ElliottBeautiful. Yeah, you see, I should have done a bit more prep. Okay, so question number 1: I think I accidentally trained my team to stop thinking for themselves. I want to fix it. So this person writes, when I first became a manager, I thought I was being helpful by answering every question and stepping in whenever someone was unsure. But now I've realised I've created a habit where the team always looks to me before making any decision. Not because they can't make a decision, but because I've made myself the easiest route. Now I'm trying to hand decisions back, but it's hard to know how to shift the dynamic without everyone feeling awkward or unsure. So how do I rebuild this sense of ownership in a team that I've accidentally made too dependent on me?
Leanne ElliottSuch a common, common pickle, isn't it?
Al ElliottParticularly for new managers or insecure managers.
Leanne ElliottOr, or what people would maybe What I've heard them describe themselves as is accidental MDs, where they've got a business, they've not had teams before necessarily, and create a culture that is quite dependent on them. It's very, very common. And actually, some cultures you do require people to be more dependent than independent or interdependent. I would suggest to you, as a short, easy answer, go and get some coaching training. Go and get some coaching training, because what this is going to require is curiosity, excellent questions, the ability to feel— help people feel safe emotionally, psychologically, professionally whilst they're going through this transition. And as you've said, you've got these habits that could be pretty hard to change. So I think for you, go and get some coaching training, whether it be a short course, a full-on coaching course, to really understand how you can coach somebody through making decisions. So rather than, than you saying, oh, just do this, helping them to come to the answer themselves. And that is going to feel like a lot of effort from your point initially, and probably feels like you're wasting a lot of time initially, but you're going to have to go through this process to help people understand that they are able to work through problems themselves or with your support and come to a decision that you will then sign off, agree with, maybe slightly challenge or tweak. Um, but it is going to have to be this whole learning moment for all of you. So I would, I would prep yourself in terms of the skills you're going to need to do that. The other thing you can do is talk to your team and go, guys, I worry, and it came from a good place of wanting to be helpful, wanting to be enabling, wanting you to, to just make your jobs as easy as possible. I, I wanted to do that, and I worry now that I've clipped your wings. I'm not allowing you to To make decisions in the same way, have autonomy in the same way, have control in the same way. And I'd really like to change that. So, in terms of work at the minute, where do you think you can handle decisions? Where do you think you don't need my input? Are there areas that you're like, oh, I have to go to Leanne and get it signed off, when really you don't? Let's just have a conversation about decisions that you think you can handle, areas that you don't think you could right now that we can focus on, because I think you've got the capability. I think you've got the talent. It was just me being overbearing, wanting to make sure that you're all okay and had as much help as possible.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottHave that conversation with people. You might find that people are completely oblivious and like, oh, right, yeah, it would be nice to have a bit more control and autonomy, but it wasn't really on my mind. You might find out that your team are like, thank God, because I feel like I've not been able to breathe for the last 3 months. So, have this conversation with people. Again, I would always say try and get a little bit of training around kind of this coaching style of communication, because it's really going to help you out.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottDo some Googling, listen to some specific podcasts. We did one with Ride the Wave back in the day that talks about the difference between coaching and mentoring, which would be relevant for you as well. But yeah, very typical problem.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottNot too complicated to unpick, but will take time and will require a lot of consistency and patience from you in terms of handing back. this autonomy. But it sounds like your heart was in the right place, and you've got a team that are probably on board, because I'm not getting any sense of anyone's annoyed or things are bad. So, yeah, have that conversation with your team. And I think it will be easier than you think in terms of the change, but it will require that consistency and patience from you.
Al ElliottYeah, I think what comes through in a lot of these questions is that, and questions overall, any questions like, well, how do I get this to happen without this happening?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd the answer is, well, go and speak to them. Go and talk to your team. Like, don't just think that you are this, like, this magic manager who just comes in on a carpet and goes, I will fix everything, for I am the magic manager. You just go sit down and go, guys, I kind of messed up here a little bit. I think this is what's gone on. What are your thoughts? And people might go, oh, we thought you always wanted to— wanted every decision to come through you. And it's like, no, I don't want that at all. I was trying to help you. It's like, oh, we were trying to help you. Do you know what I mean? So I think that that is such a key thing. For anyone who thinks they might be falling into this trap, just check your ego a little bit. And I don't mean that in a horrible way, but just like a lot of people, like especially new managers, want to feel, first of all, feel like they're making a difference. And secondly, feel like they're needed. Like we all need to feel like we're needed and wanted. But the best managers are the ones who just let people go. Oh, that's fine. That's fine.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you're, if you're a business owner listening, that's thinking that sounds a bit familiar. What I would, again, I think, as you said, Al, a bit of an ego check, because there is an element of wanting to retain control as a, as an MD, an entrepreneurial MD, of not wanting to allow mistakes because of how that might impact relationships with clients or workflow or all of that stuff. And the reality is, until you start to let go and allow people to make mistakes, it's never going to change. You're always going to have a team that's dependent on you, which significantly Um, reduces your ability to grow your business in the way that, that you want to do. It's that cliché, isn't it, where you're spending too much time in the business so you can't work on the business? Uh, but it's true, and it's, and it's very hard, and it'll be harder for the MDs than it will be for the, for the managers. Um, but yeah, yeah, ego check. Fair play, Al.
Al ElliottIf you're a founder who's got somewhere between 15 and 75 employees, you've been in business for 5 years, and you've got this problem, email me. Because we have created something which is just for you. Um, it's exactly what Leanne's just said there, and you are gonna love it. Okay, onto question number 2, which is, what is the real role of occupational health? This is interesting. This is from an employer's perspective. I think a lot of occupational health, you'll see questions and they'll be around the employee, but from an employer, what does occupational health do? So this person writes, as a business owner, I've always been a bit unclear on what occupational health is actually for. OH, as they say in the, in the, in the industry. I've tended to see it as a process we go through when we're trying to assess if someone is well enough to do the job, or if they're going to be a risk or a liability. But that feels quite negative and maybe even unfair. Is that how it's supposed to work, or is OH meant to be something more proactive, something that supports both the employee and the business? This person said, I'd really appreciate some clarity on what it's actually for and how to use it well.
Leanne ElliottExcellent question that I would not be able to answer as well. As Harry Kramer. Uh, Harry, you— if regular listeners will, will remember Harry, he's the CEO of Smart Clinic, which is a really cool organization, works with schools and businesses around the UK offering the very best health and wellbeing services, occupational health services, um, for a very affordable price. So I got in touch with Harry and was like, Harry, could you help us out and answer this question? He went, of course I can. So Harry, over to you.
Al ElliottWell, it's great that as an employer, you are even asking that question, because it shows that you're really trying to make sure that you get the most out of occupational health, but it's also showing that you're trying to do right by yourselves as a business, and right by the employee, which is great. So, well done for even thinking about it. So, firstly, the role of occupational health. Well, ultimately, we're there to try and advise on the impact of any health condition on somebody's work and their ability to work normally. Now, that has lots of different connotations, and there's lots of situations in which that could be relevant. Ultimately, for you as an employer, it helps to keep you out of court, which is pretty great, obviously. It does that by kind of making sure you stay compliant with things like the Equality Act and the Health and Safety at Work Act, for example. It also ensures that whenever you are making a decision that has any health-related impact, it means that you're gaining independent clinical advice before you do that. Now, I'm gonna presume as a business owner, I could be wrong here, but I'm gonna presume as a business owner, you are a non-clinical professional. You're not a doctor or a nurse or something like that, which means when somebody does have a medical issue, that is not your area of expertise. In the same way that if I needed to write a contract for something, I would probably ask a lawyer who is trained in doing that. Same goes with medical issues. If somebody has a medical issue and you're looking to maybe make adjustments at work or support them or do something or make a decision on something, then having clinical advice before you do that is prudent because it's probably not your area of expertise. Now, that could involve things like perhaps you're managing underperformance of a member of staff and their underperformance is directly as a result of a medical issue. It could be that a member of staff has had high levels of absence and it's becoming a bit detrimental. detrimental to your organization, and therefore you want to kind of manage it a bit more proactively. It also means that you as an employer, you are giving the right level of support to your employees. Obviously, most employers want to do what they need to do, and they want to support employees with the things that they can support them on. But there's very little point doing more than you need to, because if you are making adjustments or providing support that simply isn't required, you're wasting your own time and your own money there. So, occupational health helps to separate the difference between what an employee wants and what an employee needs, at least from a clinical perspective. So, it helps to give you slightly more evidence when it comes to any decision-making that you're going to be doing, whether it's a decision on sort of future employment of an employee or any adjustments that you're going to grant for them or any support that you're going to implement for them or anything like that. I don't think there's anything we can add to that, Leanne, because Hari knows his stuff. If you're interested in learning more about occupational health, definitely go and check out Harry's interview with us, his episode, which is probably about 100 episodes ago, I think. Really, really cool guy. And also go to smartclinic.com where you can learn more about that. You'll be hearing more from Harry over the next few weeks. Really, really nice guy. And we're also going to go for lunch with him, I believe, because he's only down the road from Manchester and Wales, isn't he?
Leanne ElliottHe is. He is. Yeah, we, we do get some questions around areas that aren't in my wheelhouse really, in terms of occupational health or very HR. based questions. So that's when we look for experts in our network, like Harry, like our friends at the Curve Group, to give you the very best advice. So yeah, I'll leave all the links should you want to find more about Harry in the show notes.
Al ElliottOkay, on to question number 3. How do I manage my first remote hire without becoming a micromanager? This is great. This is— I like when people ask questions like, this is about to happen, I want to avoid this, so what do I do? This is kind of cool. I've just hired my first full-time remote employee. They're in Europe, I'm in the US. And I'm excited, but I'm also worried I'm gonna end up micromanaging them without meaning to. We only have a few hours overlap each day, and I wanna give them autonomy, but also need visibility on how time is being spent across client projects. We stay on budget. Be careful. Be careful. What systems and habits can I put in place to keep us aligned and accountable without undermining trust or making remote work feel restrictive? Lee, I have thoughts, but you, you, I wanna hear yours first.
Leanne ElliottI think I agree, Al, that I'm loving the awareness, the conscientiousness of what the risks might be, and potentially some clues about the type of person you are if you're already worried about this. What always makes me smile when people talk about managing remote employees, I'm like, what do you do with your in-office employees? Do you sit next to them all day and just watch them work? Do you know what I mean, though?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottI mean, if anyone doesn't know, I've spent a lot of my time managing remote teams, the last 10 years managing remote teams, recruiting them, training them, engaging them, managing them. It's the same as managing any other team. It requires the same ingredients. You need really clear job roles and responsibilities. What is this person's job? What does great performance look like? How will those outcomes be measured? And that person needs to have a very clear understanding of that. In terms of, um, the idea of this overlap each day, I get that, and that is hard. I've managed People all over the world, including Australia, where that overlap is minimal.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottThe key is what do you want to achieve, if anything, in that overlap? You don't have to check in every day with somebody who's remote if you're good. I tended to over Slack because you've got that asynchronous communication, haven't you? I'm like, hi, how are you going? Did you have a good day? Blah, blah, blah. Or I'd ask certain team members that I was working closely with to give a handover. So, if we're working on a specific project, This has been done, this has been done, this needs picking up. Um, I struggled with this bit, can you take a look for me? Just having those handovers, um, were useful. Or if you do need to have more detailed conversations, making sure that they're planned and booked in, in advance during this overlap, even if you end up not needing them, the time there is allocated. Then in terms of, of the being able to have visibility over how time is being spent.
Al ElliottThat's what I wanted to talk about.
Leanne ElliottThis is tricky. This is tricky, but I have managed remote teams where we have also needed this visibility to manage workloads in a way that's fair and to make sure that we were charging projects correctly in terms of how long they were taking. We use Toggl, which is basically a time tracking app where you start a stopwatch, you stop it again once you finish a task, and then you write in what it was that that you were doing, but it wasn't micro-level detail. It was, I spent X amount of time working on this client project, I spent X amount of time working on this client project, not the ins and outs, specifics of what I was doing during that time. Because that will be the thing that feels like micromanagement. That'll be the thing that will undermine trust. If you've got that high-level data, then you have that conversation. If that time looks a bit too high with a particular client, You actually have a conversation and you say, what were you doing during that time? Was there something that's particularly challenging? Bearing in mind as well that as this new person starts, things are going to take them longer. And as they get more familiar with the clients, the business, the work, their time is going to go down significantly. So, it's also worth setting some expectations in terms of how long you think something should take and how long it'll take now, once they're brand new, how long it'll take in a couple of months, and how long it's going to take in 6 months when you're You have kind of full, full proficiency. So, having those expectations and reasonable expectations and communicating them is going to be really, really important as well. So, 3 general rules in terms of this. The only different thing from managing an in-person team is just being really overly clear in terms of what this person's role is and what good looks like. Being very organised in terms of your communication when you've got this overlap each day. And if you are going to use a tracking system, keeping it very high level and then having actual conversations in a way that this person understands this isn't about you taking too long to do it or wasting time. This is about always making sure that your workload is manageable and we're charging client projects appropriately is gonna, is gonna be helpful. Otherwise, everything else is, is the same.
Al ElliottYep. And I just want to talk quickly about this, this line. I also need visibility on how time is being spent. Yes, I totally understand that if you are charging by the hour, then of course you need to make a profit on that. And then if you charge for 1 hour, it takes someone 2 hours, it could potentially erode your profit. Totally understand that. First of all, I would counsel you to move away from the hourly rate. Um, I don't think that's a very good, uh, very good way to build a business, in my opinion. Um, but secondly, Yeah, like Leanne says, just be careful. Manage by outcomes, really, if you possibly can. Um, yeah, just putting that toggle in place and saying, oh, I just want to see that you haven't got too much, you're not spending too much time on something. For a new employee, they'd go, yeah, yeah. As we used to say at school, chinny chinny raccoon, or chinny raccoon, or whatever it was. We'd be like, yeah, whatever, I, you, I don't believe you. And I think they would— people that the new employee is going to think, this is just to track my time, and they're going to be more I think they're gonna be really aware of this toggle because they're not— the trust isn't there because you don't know them yet.
Leanne ElliottYou don't, but I think this is where you give people an idea. So, for example, we'd expect this project to take you 5 hours. In your first 3 months, it's probably gonna take you 10.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd that's fine. That's okay. It's gonna just gonna take you that long while you get used to it. We'd expect to see that gradually shift down. Over time. And I'd have these conversations with people who that reduction in time wouldn't necessarily go down as quickly as we'd expect. So, we'd talk about the areas of the project that they were spending a long time on, things that they were struggling with, so that we'd inject a little bit of training around that, or we'd adjust some expectations in terms of what good looks like on that, or kind of the level of detail that's required at this point of the project. It's as much a training exercise as it is a way of understanding how time is spent.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, I think if it's done with the right intentions, clear expectations, and as part of a bigger training and development exercise, I think that trust will be built.
Al ElliottYeah, totally agree. Okay, great. Thank you very much, Leanne. If you have a question you wanna put to Leanne, then all the details are in the show notes. We will see you on Thursday with a great episode, which we've not yet come up with the title of.
Leanne ElliottOh.
Al ElliottBut it's gonna be around basically how to be, how not to be a douchebag on LinkedIn.
Leanne ElliottYeah, with probably one of the most famous people on LinkedIn.
Al ElliottYes, we're not going to tell you who it is because he's, he's just a great guy.
Leanne ElliottVery powerful.
Al ElliottVery powerful.
Leanne ElliottIt's a very powerful conversation.
Al ElliottThere you go. So we will see you on Thursday for that. We'll see you next week for more This Week in Work. In the meantime, as Leanne always says, if this is your first time, please like, subscribe, leave us a review. That'll be nice. We like, we like reviews. And we will see you soon. If you've been here before, then thank you so much for coming back and putting your trust in the Truth, Lies and Work podcast. Goodbye.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye. Love you. Bye. Bye.