Episode 255 · 4 December 2025 · 49:50
Why some people are difficult at work, with Aoife O'Brien
Featuring Aoife O'Brien
Why some people are difficult at work, with Aoife O'Brien
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Why some people are difficult at work
interview#difficult-people#workplace-behavior#toxic-workplace
Meet Aoife O'Brien
interview#podcast#author#happier-at-work
Why difficult people aren't born—they're created
interview#difficult-people#workplace-culture#employee-engagement
Diagnosing Geoff: the three universal needs
interview#difficult-people#psychology#needs
Where unmet needs come from (hint: childhood)
interview#childhood#psychology#unmet-needs
Using the framework to identify what's driving behaviour
interview#framework#behavior#diagnosis
Micromanagement as a signal, not a personality flaw
What younger Aoife would tell herself about being micromanaged
How to build a thriving team as a new manager
Silicon Valley's Guilfoyle: when difficult is high performance
How to tell if you're the difficult one in the room
Where the manager's responsibility ends
Aoife's favourite chapter to write
interview#book-writing#author#capabilities
Are there people who just enjoy being difficult?
The one thing Aoife wants you to take from her book
interview#book#takeaways#leadership
Top 3 takeaways for leaders
interview#takeaways#leaders#podcast
Show notes
Why Some People Are Difficult at Work — with Aoife O'Brien
Guest: Aoife O'Brien — Founder of Happier at Work, host of the award-winning Happier at Work podcast, and author of the upcoming book Thrive.
We've all got a "Geoff" — the colleague who seems to make everything harder, pushes back on every idea, and leaves the team walking on eggshells. But what if Geoff isn't actually the problem?
Aoife joins Al and Leanne to flip the script on difficult people at work. Drawing on her research into the three universal needs — autonomy, relatedness, and competence — she makes a compelling case that most "difficult" behaviour is actually a signal that something in the environment is out of alignment.
They dig into why values misalignment is one of the strongest predictors of disengagement, how to diagnose which of the three needs is going unmet on your team, and why psychological safety isn't about being your "authentic self" 24/7. Plus: how to tell if you're the difficult one in the room, and why Bob Sutton's The No Asshole Rule still matters.
Top 3 Takeaways
There's rarely such a thing as a difficult person — just unmet needs. When someone is being difficult at work, ask what's driving it. Are they missing autonomy, relatedness, or competence? The behaviour is a symptom, not the disease.
Ask questions before you judge. Instead of writing someone off as "an asshole," get curious. What's going on for them? What needs aren't being met? The answer might surprise you — and it might change how you lead them.
Psychological safety isn't about being your authentic self all the time. It's about creating an environment where people can speak up, make mistakes, and disagree without fear. That's a leadership responsibility, not a personality trait.
More From Aoife O'Brien
- Website: happieratwork.ie
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/aoifemobrien
- Instagram: @happieratwork.ie
- TikTok: @happieratwork
- YouTube: @happieratworkhq
- Happier at Work Podcast: happieratwork.ie/happier-at-work-podcast
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottGeoff is just, like you say, a bit of an asshole at work. What possibly is driving Geoff to be like this?
Aoife O'BrienWe can all think about those difficult people at work. I have some very specific examples of people who I can remember who are like, that person is basically just an asshole. Like, there's no other way to describe it. It could be that he has needs that are going unmet. So Geoff has some very specific needs that he needs to be met, and if those needs are not met for him, then he's going to behave in a way that maybe is inappropriate. Maybe he bangs his fist on the table if he's not getting the attention that he needs. Maybe he is undermining people because he has this need to progress and he's kind of throwing other people under the bus because he wants to progress in his career. Now, if you've created an environment where people feel safe that they can say, and it's not about saying you're an asshole, it's about saying, Yeah. This is the impact. So, you're taking the person out of the role. Yes, their behavior contributed to it, but it's not them as a person. It's this kind of specific behavior is having this specific impact on the team. And I think if we can be open about those things, and not many people I think are brave enough to say those, but when they are, then it makes a huge difference to the person receiving. I think it makes a huge difference to the team in how person is showing up, it, the person who's giving the feedback has this aha moment of, I can really do this. I can give that feedback and it can land and it can have a positive impact as well.
Leanne ElliottThat is Aoife O'Brien, host of the award-winning Happier at Work podcast and author of the upcoming book Thriving Talent. Today, she's going to explain why some people may be just difficult at work.
Al ElliottBecause here's the awkward truth. If you've got a difficult person on your team, you might be the one that made them that way.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottSo today we're asking, what if the difficult people in your workplace aren't broken, but your environment is? Aoife's gonna reveal the 3 universal needs that, when unmet, turn good people into workplace nightmares.
Leanne ElliottShe'll also explain why psychological safety isn't about being your authentic self, why the lone genius might be costing you more than they're worth, and the 1-minute daily practice that could transform your team Plus, Aoife and I nerded out about Silicon Valley, about Parks and Recreation, and she's also even managed to squeeze in the Batman quote about people who just want to watch the world burn. We'll see you after this short break.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets. Which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Aoife O'BrienSo, my name is Aoife O'Brien. I work with global organizations on helping them to create thriving organizations. That's all based on my own personal experiences at work and my quest to uncover what those things are that may be causing unhappiness at work. My business is called Happier at Work. I'm famous for having a podcast called Happier at Work, an award-winning podcast now at this stage. And I'm also, as you mentioned, have a book coming out called Thriving Talent.
Al ElliottOne of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about is working with difficult people. Now, I've got in my head that if you're a difficult person, you're a difficult person to work with, but I sense you've got a different take on that somehow.
Aoife O'BrienAnd you know what? I probably would have agreed with you previously, Al, if you had said this to me. And one of my previous podcast guests, his name is Zach Mercurio. He sort of, every time I speak to him, he sort of challenges me on how I think about things. And so, in one of our first conversations, he He challenged back and he said, you know, because we can all think about those difficult people at work. I have some very specific examples of people who I can remember who are like, that person is basically just an asshole. Like, there's no other way to describe it. Or if we're talking UK, we might say arsehole, dare I say. Now, what Zak said is there's no such thing as a difficult person. It's the environment that we've created for them. So, rather than labeling someone as being difficult, it's taking a step back and thinking, what environment have we created for that person in order to behave that way? And to me, this links back very much with what I talk about, which is one of the core pillars in my Thriving Talent Framework, which is this idea of drivers. And there are things that drive us at work, and they can be positive, or they can be behaviors that derail us as well.
Al ElliottSo, let's talk about these drivers then. So, let's take a fictitious person. So, this person we're gonna call Jeff. Jeff is just, like you say, a bit of an asshole at work. What possibly is driving Jeff to be like this?
Aoife O'BrienIt could be that he has needs that are going unmet. So, Jeff has some very specific needs that he needs to be met. And if those needs are not met for him, then he's going to behave in a way that maybe is inappropriate. Maybe he bangs his fist on the table if he's not getting the attention that he needs. Maybe he is undermining people because he has this need to progress and he's kind of throwing other people under the bus because he wants to progress in his career. And these are the kinds of behaviors that can undermine us as people. If we take a step back and say, well, what are our— we have universal needs. This is all quite academicky, but we do have 3 universal needs, the need for autonomy, relatedness, and competence. And those basically mean for autonomy, we have a sense of choice and control over what we do and how we do it. Relatedness is feeling of connection with our colleagues, but beyond the connection with colleagues, it's understanding the impact that our work has. And that could be the impact on internal stakeholders. It could be the impact on—
Al ElliottYeah.
Aoife O'Brienwhat the organization is trying to achieve. It could also be the impact on clients. So, what kind of results are our clients getting from the work that we're delivering to them? And then the third universal need is competence. So, that's feeling capable of doing your job. We will come back to these needs in a second, but let's maybe talk about Geoff. So, maybe Geoff is not receiving any feedback on his performance.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Aoife O'BrienPeople are not saying to him, hey, Geoff, you know, you're doing a really good job. This is the difference that you're making. And he could be acting out to try and get attention or to try and get focus on his work because he has a need that's unmet. Dare I add to this mix, this idea of self-awareness? And I think we all think we're more self-aware than we are. And it's really important for us as individuals to seek out feedback and also as individuals or as leaders, to receive that feedback as if it's a gift. Someone is trying to help us and to modify our behavior so that we can be successful, however, you know, whatever success means to us.
Al ElliottThe way you described there, Jeff might be banging his fist on the table because he's not getting recognition in other areas. Makes me think of a toddler in a cereal aisle in a supermarket acting out and throwing himself on the floor. Is it as simple as actually some of these things is almost like childlike that you need this stuff at work?
Aoife O'BrienYeah. And a lot of the things that we don't get are from childhood. So, I'm not an expert in this area, but I've gathered research from other experts to look at, well, what are some of these drivers? One of the drivers that could be both positive and negative, it's something called Kohler's drivers. This is something that is in us from a very, very young age. It's the behaviors that we learn. And so, it's things like be perfect, like I have to be perfect, which means I'm setting incredibly incredibly high standards for myself, but not only for myself, I'm sharing those really high standards with other people, and my expectations of other people are really high. Now, on the positive side of things, if I have that as a driver, then I'm going to be driven for excellence, and I'm going to be really attention-focused, really have that attention-to-detail focus when I carry out my work. But at the same time, I could be procrastinating, I could be You know, stopping myself from going for opportunities because I don't feel I'm capable because I'm not perfect in it. So that's one area. So there's the be perfect, there is hurry up. So maybe you received the message when you were younger, can you do that faster? Can you hurry up? You know, what's taking you so much time? We take all of this stuff on board. And again, this is something that has come up on the podcast multiple times, that we are kind of like those children when we're at work and we trigger each other. with these kinds of things. So, if you receive a message at work, or if you have the internal driver, hurry up, and you have this tendency to want to get things done really quickly, and someone else is being really slow, that's gonna trigger something in you that like, why can't that person just hurry up? And you almost turn into the message that you received when you were younger. This is the evidence that I've gathered from other people and the conversations that I've had on the podcast to say it is very much like we go into child mode, especially, and I think from what I've seen, it's when those needs we have go unmet. So we have these drivers within us, but we also have these needs. So maybe I have a need for achievement, I have a need for stability, and if those needs are frustrated or unmet or thwarted in any way, then it's gonna cause behavior. And we may not even know that this is happening. This is not something—
Al ElliottYeah.
Aoife O'BrienI think we deliberately do. Coming back to Geoff, A, does Geoff know that he is being a bit of an asshole, or is this the perception of other people or a group of other people? Is Geoff self-aware? Is he seeking out feedback on his behavior? Is he aware of the impact that he's having on other people? And I think, again, coming back to this idea of self-awareness, we all think we're much more self-aware. And some people, I had this conversation not on the podcast, but someone said that he was dealing with someone and he was like, he was the most self-unaware person I've ever met. And he's receiving this feedback to say, your behavior needs to improve, your performance needs to improve. And he was not taking it on board.
Al ElliottWith your framework, does it give us a way to identify exactly what is driving Geoff to this bad behavior?
Aoife O'BrienMaybe not Geoff specifically, but for people who are reading it, there are those 3 universal needs that I mentioned. And beyond just having that need satisfied, so the need for autonomy, it's about finding the balance. So, it's not just saying, oh, here's, if you remember to the early days of the pandemic, here's a whole load of autonomy overnight. It often causes people to flounder a little bit because they need a certain level of direction and guidance in order to in order to flourish. So, if they're left to their own devices, they're expending a lot of energy going, trying to figure out what the hell am I supposed to be doing here? And if leaders can provide that level of guidance, then that really, really helps. So, it's finding that balance. It's further complicated because each individual will have a different set point, let's say, of what it is that they need in terms of levels of autonomy. In terms of, it might change as well at different stages in their career. If they take on a new role or a new project, maybe they need a little bit more guidance. And I think as leaders, we're so aware of not being the micromanager that maybe sometimes we can take our hands off a little bit too much and leave people to sort of flounder a little bit and figure things out on their own. So, coming back to this idea of whether Geoff might know, I think Geoff specifically, maybe he's not aware, or maybe this book will help him to become aware of what those internal drivers are. So, we have the universal needs, but then we also have unique needs that we all need to be satisfied. And so, reading through, I don't have a specific test, but I know that other people do have a specific test that you could take to really understand what drives you, what motivates you, work and uncovering for yourself what that is and trying to understand, well, where do I feel really frustrated at work right now? And oftentimes where we feel frustrated or where we feel like I can't do my best work here, it's often related back to a need that is going unmet. And so, it might be awkward to talk about needs at work, so we can talk about like what's blocking you or what's causing you frustration? Like, how can I as a leader help you to do better work rather than trying to help people to understand what their needs are, which might be a little bit too much. And this is proven, this is all research-backed. Deci and Ryan talked about this, I think. Well, I don't know. I don't remember the year, but it was quite a while ago. And they found that beyond things like money, which is not a universal need for everyone, recognition is also not a universal need, which I found strange because I really like to be recognized and I assumed that everyone liked to be recognized at work. But it's those 3 are the universal needs. And then we each will, in addition to those, have unique needs that we have that need to be met. And then we'll have other things that are driving our behavior as well.
Al ElliottSo, the plan is that as a manager, I'm trying to ensure that all of my team have these 3 universal needs met, and then each one might have individual needs. Is that right?
Aoife O'BrienYeah, absolutely. Yeah. If you think back, like I relate this back to, do you remember, this is probably showing my age, but Coca-Cola put people's names on the bottles. And so Coca-Cola has my name on a bottle and I want to go and pick up a bottle of Coke that has my name. And in Ireland, they did have Aoife, by the way. So, you know, they were very focused on those individual markets as well, and what were the popular names and things like that. And I think it's the same in the workplace. There's no blanket one-size-fits-all. It happens in relationships between 2 people, and that means the relationship between the leader and the employee and understanding what it is that really lights them up. I don't imagine anyone listening to this podcast wants to create friction, wants to create an environment where people can't thrive. They want to cause misery in their teams. I'm sure people are very much focused on creating that positive environment where people can do their best work, where they feel really fulfilled, where they want to stay in the team and have a really kind of great sense of camaraderie within the team as well.
Al ElliottIs there a way for me to understand what's not being met? Which one of these 3 is not being met in some of my team members?
Aoife O'BrienI think it's really about asking those questions. So, let's take micromanagement as an example, because I think this is, it's, dare I say, and you know, you can let me know whether you agree with this or not, But it's a big fear that a lot of people have that they don't want to be that micromanager. So, first of all, as leaders, we can look at our own behaviors and our own standards. Like, do I want to control everything? Do I want to check things before they go out? Like, that can be perceived as micromanaging behavior, and therefore you might be perceived as a micromanager. But we can also have those conversations with our teams, with our team members individually, And describe the intent behind our behaviors. So, if I want to make sure that things are checked, and if I think of my own situation now where I have the podcast and I have team members working on the podcast, and there are some things that I need to check and some things I don't, and I do try and describe the reason, and I want to check this, and I'll check this 10 times until you understand more about the nuances that I'm looking for that is really hard to explain in a document. And once we've got through 10 and you understand a little bit more about what I'm looking for, then you're off on your own and I completely trust you to deliver. So, describing the intent behind that as well, but also having an open conversation like, I don't want to be a micromanager, and saying that out loud. For the individual receiving that message, it might be really hard for them to say, But you are a micromanager, or this is what I perceive as being micromanaging behaviors. But I think one of the foundational aspects of the model is creating an environment of psychological safety where people are free to speak up and share what's going on for them without fear of repercussions. And I think this is kind of the key. So, if someone shares, I think you're being a micromanager, and you if you lose the plot because of that, then they're not likely to share what's going on for them again. So, it's about taking, again, this idea of feedback, taking that feedback on board and saying, thank you for sharing your perspective, and let me go and either make a plan in the moment or take that on board and say, I'm going to reflect on this and share back what I'm going to do differently so that I'm not perceived as this micromanager.
Al ElliottSo you mentioned before, um, a particular individual need, which was to be perfect.
Aoife O'BrienYeah.
Al ElliottUm, so if we take the micromanager, there's potentially— I'm amateur, amateur psychologizing here, which I shouldn't because my wife is a psychologist, so she could actually have done this. But, uh, if I'm amateur psychologizing that perhaps this person might have always been told that they've got to be perfect, they might always might have felt left out of decisions when they were, when they were younger. So they really want to be involved in that decision right now. So, we have this micromanager who isn't responding to the feedback that you're micromanaging. What's our next step? This is a tough question.
Aoife O'BrienIt is. It is a tough question. I think having been in that situation myself, having been micromanaged, so very early in my career, I felt like I was being really micromanaged. I was also being compared to other people who had, at that stage, I was pretty much straight out of uni, and other people had 5 years of experience under their belt already, and I was being compared directly to them. Now, I didn't know any better because I was new into the workplace, and it's only looking back now, 25 years later, I can see those kinds of behaviors and how they were materializing. If I think of a more recent, so like kind of in the last 15 years or so, someone was micromanaging me, Again, I don't know, did I have the language? I certainly didn't have the confidence to speak up and say, listen, you are micromanaging me here. I probably complained and complained and complained to everyone except for the person who really needed to hear it. But if I had given that feedback and said, this is my perception and the behavior doesn't change, to me, That indicates that that person is not really willing to take on board feedback. So, there, there could be 2 things at play here. So, either it's a personality conflict and the intention behind the behavior is good. They haven't maybe articulated the intention very well, or it's just this person is not self-aware. They're not going to change, and I need to get out of this situation.
Al ElliottSo, if you were to go back to slightly younger Aoife, who was in this situation where she was being micromanaged, is there anything that the slightly more experienced Aoife might say which could have fixed that problem back then?
Aoife O'BrienReally good question. And I think I was so fixated on blaming myself at the time. So, like, how did I get myself into this situation? What did I do wrong? But also looking externally to the company, what should the HR team be doing? What should the leaders have been But I hadn't considered the perspective of 15 years older Aoife going back and saying, okay, what would I do? I have been asked recently about things I might change. And one of the things that I might change in that situation, because I became that petulant child that we were talking about, I was being micromanaged and I gave back and I had my headphones in, which at the time you would never really do that. And I was just being quite rude, but I felt I was giving as good as I was getting. So, I would say not the best approach to create an environment for camaraderie and for productive work. And I think for me, at the time, I felt like I was doing everything I could. So, I had a conversation with the leader who had told me, that I was going to have that position. So, there's a bit more of a story behind this. So, I was told I was going to get that role. My colleague was promoted to be my boss, but it wasn't actually communicated to me. So, I went and I spoke to the leader who had told me that I was going to get the promotion, and he was quite spineless. He wasn't really handling anything. He told me, your new boss is more your supervisor. If you want anything, you go to his boss. And then I thought, well, then what's What's the purpose of this middle layer between me and my actual boss, this supervisor layer? I think looking back now, I would, and it's hard for me to say this because these conversations are hard, but have an open conversation about what's actually going on. Explain to him, because he may not have known that I was promised that position. He may not have known how his behavior was being perceived as well. And yeah, just getting it out in the open so that we could hammer through it. And the perspective that it's me and him against this problem, as opposed to me against him, which I think is oftentimes our default mode. Like, I need to attack this person because they're doing something against me, as opposed to we need to work together to try and solve this problem.
Leanne ElliottWe've learned that difficult people aren't necessarily born. They can be created by environments that fail to meet 3 universal needs: autonomy, relatedness, and competence. We've heard about Jeff banging his fist on the table, toddlers throwing tantrums in supermarkets, and why childhood patterns show up in our conference room. After this short break, Aoife's going to reveal what she believes drives unhappiness at work. And Al asks Aoife the question the entire psychology world has been seeking an answer for: why is Gilfoyle from the TV show Silicon Valley such a difficult person to work with? See you in a sec. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Aoife O'BrienSeamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Fel.
Aoife O'BrienWe've just done an episode On fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work.
Al ElliottAnd we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing, but there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Aoife O'BrienIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Aoife O'BrienDefinitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Aoife O'BrienKeep that in.
Al ElliottI've got a brand new team. There's 15 people in the team. I'm a new manager. I'm kind of like approaching it fresh, then do I start with, is it as simple as starting with a foundation of psychological safety?
Aoife O'BrienYeah. So, when I did my own research when I was doing my master's a number of years ago, and that's where the, let's say the seed of this model came about. So, I looked into, really I was looking at engagement, but deep down what I wanted to understand was what drives unhappiness at work. Why are we so unhappy? And so, So, the model came about because I found that values and values alignment and alignment between our personal core values, which I didn't even know that we had until I did this research, and the values of an organization, which most people know that we have because it's in your emails or it's posted on your wall or whatever it might be, and then needs satisfaction. So, our needs need to be satisfied at work in order for us to feel engaged and happy. And then the last one was abilities and our abilities to do the job. And so, it's evolved since then, the language has evolved, but also psychological safety was a huge missing piece that I realized comes up again and again in conversations on the podcast, in conversations I have with teams. So, psychological safety is that foundation. And so, when we're building psychological safety, I think we assume as a leader that I feel psychologically safe to share with my team and to speak up with my team. But do you feel psychologically safe to challenge above you? Do you feel psychologically safe to challenge your peers? And just because you feel safe with your own team, it doesn't necessarily mean that they feel safe to speak up to you because you're the boss. And they may need some help in understanding that it's okay to speak up, to share, to challenge the status quo. They need to see that modeled by you. They need to see you modeling that you don't have all the answers, that you're looking for input, and that we really need to start there with creating that psychologically safe environment. I was lucky enough to see Amy Edmondson speak live and get a copy of her book, The Fearless Organization, and just You know, how she uncovered this, and then I think it was popularized by Google. It's just really fascinating. Google were trying to find like, what makes the difference between like maybe an average team and an exceptionally good team? And what they found was the missing ingredient is psychological safety, that people are okay. They feel safe to speak up, to challenge the status quo, to challenge how things are doing, to improve processes, and they're not afraid that someone is going to laugh at them, that someone is going to tear them down, that they're going to say your idea is no good. Or in my case, I was told in one organization I worked in, that's not how we do things around here. It's having that openness to be challenged on how things are actually done.
Al ElliottSo, there's a great series. Well, there's a series I really enjoy called Silicon Valley, and it's—
Aoife O'BrienOh, you've got me. Yes, I love it.
Al ElliottI wanna talk about Guilfoyle for a second.
Aoife O'BrienYeah.
Al ElliottJust to give context, if no one's seen it, first of all, you're a fool for not watching it 'cause it is brilliant. But secondly, Guilfoyle is this really difficult person to work with, but he is absolutely incredible at what he does. And perhaps his, his more— his difficultness also makes him great.
Aoife O'BrienYeah.
Al ElliottI'd be concerned that if I'm trying to make him more agreeable at work, it's going to stop him being such a genius at what he does. Am I being stupid here?
Aoife O'BrienSo, first of all, highly commend the Silicon Valley mention. I love that show. I think I got into it during the pandemic and just binged. I highly recommend people go and check out that show, and you've inspired me now to go and rewatch it because I just thought it was so genius. Let's come back to this idea that psychological safety. So, Amy talks about this in her book. She talked about it in her speech People confuse psychological safety with being nice all the time. It's not about creating an environment of being nice. It's not about creating an environment where people feel comfortable. It's about creating an environment where people feel safe to challenge what's going on. In the case of Guilfoyle, he is a genius, but, and this goes for any organization, and I've seen it firsthand where people are fantastic salespeople and they get rewarded because they're bringing in new clients, they're turning over high revenue, but they're really terrible with people. They're leaving a trail of destruction, whether they're trampling over people, they're getting favors that they're not repaying, whatever it might be, that's bad for business in the long term because if you're creating that kind of toxic environment, where you're rewarding people simply because they are bringing in more money, then you're showing to everyone on the team, this is what's important here. It doesn't matter if you treat people badly. And that's in the long term, not good for business because people will leave, the morale will be low. People are not going to give discretionary effort if they don't feel like they're gonna be rewarded for doing things the right way, let's say. So, back to Gilfoyle. Is he impacting detrimentally on other people in the team? Or, you know, it's the argument, and maybe it depends on the team, but I think most people these days will argue that you don't just have one star in the team. It's about how people cooperate and do things together and bring out each other's areas of genius rather than just having a sole operator who's doing absolutely everything. And in the series, he built a server by himself and like he did all these crazy things that no one probably knows how to do. But coming back to this idea that it's not about the single person, it's about the cooperation that we have with other people. And I'm trying to think, did he have a negative impact? I know that he had this kind of sparring relationship with one of the other guys whose name goes out of my head right now, but he had that sparring relationship. But was that part of the fun for both of them, or did he have a negative impact on other people? And if he had a negative impact, then again, it's about having this conversation. It doesn't have to be comfortable. It has to just feel safe that it's okay for me to say this to this person.
Al ElliottLet me ask you, how can we tell if we are the difficult one in the room?
Aoife O'BrienA couple of points here, and stealing from Bob Sutton's book, Robert I. Sutton, his book, The No Asshole Rule. And he says, if you look around and you don't see any other assholes, then you could be the one who is the asshole. It comes back to what we spoke about earlier, Al, this idea of feedback. And I think oftentimes we're afraid to ask for feedback, and it might give a shiver down our spine if someone says to us, I have some feedback for you, or the thought of asking for feedback might be really difficult because you're afraid of what people might tell you. But we have to get feedback from people in order to, A, build our self-awareness, and B, progress in however we want to progress. So, if we want to progress in our career, if we wanna move up the ladder, if we wanna improve our performance, we have to, have to get that feedback. Now, if you've created an environment where people feel safe that they can say, and it's not about saying you're an asshole, it's about saying, this is the impact. So, you're taking the person out of the role. Yes, their behavior contributed to it, but it's not them as a person. It's this kind of specific behavior is having this specific impact on the team. And I think if we can be open about those things. And not many people, I think, are brave enough to say those, but when they are, then it makes a huge difference to the person receiving. I think it makes a huge difference to the team in how that person is showing up. The person who's giving the feedback has this aha moment of, I can really do this. I can give that feedback and it can land and it can have a positive impact as well. So, I think If you suspect that you might be that difficult person, be open to feedback, seek out that feedback. Maybe you have an inkling, again, going back to the micromanager type of culture, like, am I being the micromanager? Seek out that feedback and be very specific. If we're thinking about feedback, again, thinking on a conversation I had recently on the podcast and And one way that he described asking for feedback was, I thought it was brilliant, rather than saying, have you got some feedback? Which most people would be like, oh, feedback, that's hard to give. That's awkward. And no, I don't have any feedback for you. But if you ask someone to rate your performance, and it could be performance in a very specific area, it could be on a project, it could be whatever, rate your performance. Now, how likely are they that, that rate, how likely are they to say 10 in that situation? Not likely. They're much more likely to say something like 7 or 8 or even 6. And in that case, you can say, okay, so in, you know, what would bring me closer to a 10? So from a 6 to a 7, from a 7 to an 8, from an 8 to a 9. What would— and that is a way to get feedback without asking for feedback. I thought that is genius. But also he added to that, rather than asking people for feedback, ask them for advice. People love giving advice. What would you do in this situation? Or what would you, you know, and people will tell you. They won't necessarily give you feedback if you ask for feedback, but they will certainly give you advice if you seek out their advice.
Al ElliottNow, Where does the manager's responsibility fall there? You don't want to be meddling with home life, do you?
Aoife O'BrienYeah, that's such an interesting question. And I don't think I've ever really thought about that. So, if we think about autonomy, like, do I have a sense of choice and control over what I do and how I do it? Is that mired, let's say, by the fact that you have kids and your time is sort of taken up by doing things that that you enjoy doing, but you feel like you're a bit more under pressure. Competence, maybe you're having doubts about your abilities as a parent, and this is causing issues as well. It's not to diminish that those things are going on, but I think if we go into work and those things are being met to some degree at work, or we could have the mentality that I want to overcompensate in some way because these needs are not being met. So I'm a really terrible parent and therefore I'm going to go into work and I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be— and I think of, maybe this is not quite for you, Al, but there's an episode of Sex and the City where Miranda is like, she's trying to balance everything. She's trying to be a really good mom at home and she's failing there and she's trying to be a really good lawyer, but because— Yeah. Home life is taking up so much time, she's being perceived as failing in the office as well. But we may try and compensate in some way by kind of overdoing it in the work environment if one of those needs at home is not being met. So, if we feel constrained from an autonomy perspective, that may show up, that may present itself as, now I need to make sure everything is under control. Or it could result in, I want to have more freedom at work, so I'll perceive any sort of people coming to me trying to control my time in any way, that that's them micromanaging me.
Al ElliottSo, let's talk about the book. What was your favorite chapter to write?
Aoife O'BrienSo, that's an interesting question because before I wrote the capabilities section, I was like, I can't wait to dive into all of this. And it's about productivity, which I love and I've been talking about for years, and it's about unleashing, understanding people's strengths and unleashing people's strengths, which is something I feel we don't talk enough about at work. I mean, we don't talk about any of these things really at work, but strengths is something I think if we can get that right, if we can get people working in roles that really match their strengths and pair them up with people who have complementary strengths, I think that makes a huge difference. But when I sat down to write it, maybe I was putting so much pressure on myself that it just became a bit of a chore. And I was like, is this really hanging together? It feels a bit dry in places. And so what I was really looking forward to didn't really come together in the way that I had planned. The very first chapter that I wrote was the one that just flowed out of me because I had so much to say about it. That was all about drivers and specifically the universal needs, because that's what I did all of my research on was understanding what these— sorry, my master's research about 6 years ago now, I did all of that research on self-determination theory, which was Deci and Ryan's theory of motivation about understanding what these needs are and how they need to be met. So, there was kind of 2 answers to that. There was the one I was really looking forward to that was a bit like, oh, this is harder than I thought it was going to be because I'm so interested interested in the topic, I wanted to make sure everything was kind of really flowing in the right way. And probably I had so much to say about it that it made it hard versus the one that just flowed out of me.
Al ElliottOne of the reasons for someone being difficult at work, it's just occurred to me, they might have all of these 3 fundamental needs met, but they're just perhaps neurodivergent. And that might be a reason why they appear to difficult at work. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Aoife O'BrienI haven't done research on this, and so I'm not an expert in the area, although I do suspect that I may be neurodivergent myself. And I think when we're neurodivergent, we are more aware of these things and more interested in a sense of fairness and a sense of justice in the world. And so, when that happened, when I was in that role and I was passed over for promotion, I got really pissed off and I was like, this is not fair. Why did this happen? And the sense of rejection was really strong. And so, that could be something that's driving us because there are so many people who thought, you're crazy to leave that role. You're being sponsored here. You know, do you not wanna stay in this country? Like all of these things came out and I was like, I'm not interested in those things. I'm not happy here. And I'm, I've been shafted in a way. And so I'm going to leave. But I just felt this sense of injustice and I want to, I want to make things right. And maybe that's what's driven my whole business and driven me to, to write this book. But. There could be specific needs or people could be perceived in different ways. So let's take Guilfoyle as the example. Like he's very, either he's a genius, but he's very kind of focused and I don't want to give him a label, but could he potentially be autistic and how he relates to people is not necessarily How they feel, they don't feel that sense of connection with him because of how he relates. And this sense of connection is one of our universal needs. It's one of our fundamental needs. And either from his perspective, maybe he doesn't feel connected to others or they don't feel connected to him because how we connect with each other or what that means could be different for different people.
Al ElliottI am fascinated by characters on TV, particularly in a workplace setting. There's a guy called Ron Swanson.
Aoife O'BrienYes, I know of Ron Swanson. Yes, yes.
Al ElliottRon seems to delight in being a difficult person at work. Are there just people who just love being that asshole at work?
Aoife O'BrienThat's such a good question. And I'm trying to think. I certainly have known people. And I'm trying to think, what is that driver? What's that unmet need that that person has? Was their family life difficult when they grew up? Are they retaliating? Are they, you know, what is going on? And maybe there are people, and again, I think hammering home this point, but come back to self-awareness. What is the impact that you would like to have at work? And if you're the kind of person who wants to create misery and conflict and make things difficult for other people, then you're doing a really good job of that. If that's not your intention and you're unintentionally creating conflict or you're creating difficulty, or you're just making people's lives a misery, but that's not really what you want to achieve. Or maybe that's all you know, or maybe you associate that with, that's just who I am. And touching on this idea of psychological safety, it's not about just being who you are at work. Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic, he talks about it's not being your authentic self and bringing your full authentic self to work. It's about bringing your professional self to work. So, Having psychological safety is not an excuse to show up just as I am. It's about being professional and courteous and respectful. So, coming back to the Ron Swanson example, self-awareness. How am I coming across? Can I ask for feedback? What is the impact that I'm having? And there could be people who genuinely are driven by that? Like, is he driven to hurt other people for some reason? And is that, again, you know, not getting too psychological here, but is that psychopathic or sociopathic or something that people just want to cause damage? And thinking about a Batman quote here where Alfred says, some men just want to watch the world burn. And maybe that is the case. Maybe that is the case. But do you want that person in your work environment?
Al ElliottSo, it comes out March 2026. Someone reads the book and they only implement one thing from it. What do you want that one thing to be?
Aoife O'BrienCan I cheat and have 2 things?
Al ElliottYou may.
Aoife O'BrienWe talked about psychological safety. So, I think making sure that you have that and checking whether you have that. And an example, again, this is from what a guest shared with me on the podcast. Robert Glaser talked about how do you know whether you have psychological safety? You ask people to do outrageous things, outrageous. It's going to cost way too much in budget. It's unrealistic from a time perspective or a quality perspective, and you see what they say. And if they smile and they nod, then you know that you do not have psychological safety, that they're not pushing back. So, I would say psychological safety, if you assume that you have it, maybe check whether you have psychological safety at work. The other thing for me is it's kind maybe one of the easier things to do and to build in, and it's not additional time. It's just letting people know, it will take a minute, maybe 2 minutes, the impact that their work, their day-to-day work is having on the team, on the department, on the client, whatever that looks like, but just giving them that feedback, making that connection obvious for them. The work that you're doing on a day-to-day basis is having this positive impact on our goals, on our objectives, on the client, whatever it might be.
Al ElliottOkay, so that was Aoife O'Brien, and if you like her stories, then definitely check out our podcast Happier at Work.
Leanne ElliottI'd like to wrap up with our 3 takeaways for leaders. Lesson 1, there's rarely such a thing as a difficult person. Usually unmet needs are the culprit. Aoife says everyone has 3 universal needs: autonomy— that's choice and control— relatedness— connection and impact— And competence, which is feeling capable. When these aren't met, people can act out like toddlers in supermarkets. Lesson 2, psychological safety isn't about being your authentic self at work, it's about being your professional self. And here's how to test if you actually have it. Ask your team to do something outrageous. If they smile and nod instead of pushing back, you probably don't have psychological safety. And lesson 3, Aoife says you should take 1 minute, literally 60 seconds, to tell someone the impact their work is having on the team, on clients, on goals. That simple connection between daily work and meaningful outcomes can transform how people show up. And if you've got that lone genius who's brilliant but bordering on toxic superstar, Aoife's challenge is simple: calculate the cost, the damage, the turnover, the culture erosion. Is it really worth it?
Al ElliottYou can find Aoife's award-winning podcast Happier at Work wherever you get your podcasts. And her book Thriving Talent comes out in March 2026 at thrivingtalentbook.com.
Leanne ElliottYou can also connect with her on LinkedIn, Aoife O'Brien. That's A-O-I-F-E O'Brien, spelt with an E. And tell her you heard her on Truth, Lies and Work.
Al ElliottRemember, if you've got a difficult person on your team, the question isn't necessarily what's wrong with them. The question might be what environment have we actually created?
Leanne ElliottThat is all for today. This is Truth, Lies and Work. Truth, Lies and Work. We will see you next week.