Episode 269 · 22 January 2026 · 47:29
Why Truth is Funny: 7x Emmy Winner Beth Sherman on Building Trust at Work
Why Truth is Funny: 7x Emmy Winner Beth Sherman on Building Trust at Work
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Meet Beth Sherman: from TV writing to the business world
interview#career-change#tv-writing#business
Why you shouldn't try Ricky Gervais at the office Christmas party
interview#office-party#humor#boundaries
The rule: unless everyone's laughing, it's not funny
interview#inclusion#humor#workplace-culture
Self-awareness vs. self-deprecation — and why they're not the same
interview#self-awareness#self-deprecation#behavioral-science
Where to start if you want to be more humorous at work
The fine line between self-deprecation and self-sabotage
Dark humour at work — err on the side of safety
What Beth actually does for workplaces
Al and Leanne's reflections and outro
interview#reflections#key-takeaways#podcast
Show notes
Why Truth Is Funny: 7x Emmy Winner Beth Sherman on Building Trust at Work
Guest: Beth Sherman — seven-time Emmy-winning comedy writer, comedian, and communication expert. She spent over 30 years writing for The Late Show with David Letterman, The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, Ellen, the Screen Actors Guild Awards, and the Oscars before translating the principles of comedy into practical tools for business leaders.
What do late-night comedy writers know about trust, influence, and human connection that most business leaders don't?
Beth joins Al and Leanne to share why "truth is funny" — and what that reveals about building rapport, why the most effective communicators are the most observant (not the funniest), and how humour creates psychological safety without undermining authority. They dig into the crucial difference between self-awareness and self-deprecation, why being human matters more as work becomes more automated, and how observational humour can transform sales, leadership, and difficult conversations.
This is not about telling jokes in meetings. It's about understanding why humour works, how truth creates connection, and why your audience can always smell it when you're not being real.
Top 3 Takeaways
Truth is funny — and connection follows. Life is absurd and people are bonkers. When you name what's actually happening in the room, people feel seen — and that's the foundation of trust and rapport.
Self-awareness is not self-deprecation. Putting yourself down to get a laugh can damage your credibility. The goal is to show you see yourself clearly, not to undermine yourself in front of others.
You don't need to be funny — you need to be observant. The most effective communicators notice what's happening around them and name it. Humour is a way of seeing the world, not a performance skill.
Why This Matters for Leaders and Teams
In a world where people can buy similar products, services, and solutions anywhere, relationships are the differentiator.
Humour, when used properly, signals:
- Awareness of the room
- Confidence without ego
- Safety without softness
- Humanity without oversharing
Beth's work shows that humour isn't about performance. It's about connection — and connection is the foundation of trust, influence, and persuasion at work.
More From Beth Sherman
- Website: bethsherman.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/beth-sherman
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottI want you to meet Beth Sherman. She's written for David Letterman, Ellen DeGeneres, and the Oscars twice. In fact, if you've laughed at it on TV, there's a very good chance she's written it. And she's got a very specific message for anyone who's ever felt pressure to be funny at work.
Beth ShermanHere's the secret of comedy, is that truth is funny. Life is absurd. People are bonkers. Truth is funny. All we do as comedians is observe and report And what's really behind that is it's not about humor, it's about humanity, because that's what humor is. Because when someone makes us laugh or smile, we feel seen and heard and understood. And that ability, you don't need a professional to do that. You simply need the ability to observe. You need the ability to reflect what you observe. You need some emotional intelligence.
Leanne ElliottBeth spent 30 years in Hollywood writers' rooms, but now she works with people who want to learn how to to use humour to build trust. But she's discovered something surprising. The secret to building trust at work isn't actually about being funny. It's about being observant.
Al ElliottAnd here's what's brilliant about Beth's approach. She's not teaching you to become a comedian. She's teaching you the same principles late-night writers use to build instant rapport with millions of strangers. And it turns out those same principles work in sales meetings, presentations, even quite tense workplace conversations.
Leanne ElliottBeth has a framework that distinguishes between self- awareness and self-deprecation, and why that difference matters so much more than you think. Plus, she'll explain why truth is funny might be the most valuable business principle you've never heard of.
Al ElliottThis is going to make you rethink every workplace interaction you've ever had.
Leanne ElliottHello, and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottBeth Sherman has written for some of the biggest shows in American television. Late Show with David Letterman, The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, Ellen for 3 years. She's written for the Screen Actors Guild Awards and also for the Oscars twice. She's taken everything she learned from 30 years as a professional comedian, and don't forget 7-time Emmy Award-winning writer, And she's translated it for business professionals who want to create emotional connection quickly through trust and rapport.
Leanne ElliottAnd this isn't about telling more jokes at work or becoming the office comedian. It's about understanding the fundamental principles behind why people laugh, why they connect, and how that creates the trust that's essential for persuasion in business. So whether you're in sales, marketing, leadership, or just trying to make presentations that don't bore your audience to tears, Beth's insights are gold.
Al ElliottSo after this really quick break, we'll discover why the truth is funny, Why your audience can smell it when you're trying too hard, and the crucial difference between being self-aware and self-deprecating. This is gonna be brilliant. Oh, and funny. See you in a second. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot HubSpot connects it all, every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Beth ShermanI spent 30 years as a TV writer in the US and as a comedian, and now I work in the business world, and I show people how to build trust and rapport faster. And a lot of it is by using the techniques we use in comedy. So it's not about showing people how to be funny. I'm not out there to make more comedians. I don't need the competition. I'm— what I'm trying to do is show people the principles behind what we do as comedians to build trust and rapport Immediately with strangers and show them how they can use that as a really strategic tool in business because that's getting people on side is most of the job in business is persuasion. I don't know that I'm famous for it, but my resume says that I have written for, I've written for a lot of big TV shows in the US, mostly in late night. So I've written for Late Show with David Letterman. I spent 5 years at The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. I wrote for for 3 years, which was not technically a late-night show, but structured very much like that. And I've written for a lot of big award shows, including the Screen Actors Guild Awards a few times and the Oscars twice.
Al ElliottYou mentioned something a minute ago. You're not there to try and make comedians. I think a lot of people who think funny people are essentially either comedians, professional or just amateur. What's the difference?
Beth ShermanHumor is— it's a way of seeing the world. I mean, I'm not trying to make comedians. The way I explain it in talks is that I'm not trying to make comedians out of people because in presentations and in public speaking, people feel a real pressure to be funny. And audiences can smell it. They can feel it when someone's trying too hard. I mean, we've all watched it. That's often what a lot of dad jokes are, is people just trying too hard. And when you're really trying, To make, to be funny, and you don't understand truly what's behind, you know, if you don't understand the result that you want, which is building trust, building rapport, creating a relationship with people, if you don't understand that, then you're just, it becomes very performative and over the top. Because humor is, it's Humanity, really, at its core. Humor is humanity. It's the ability to find common ground quickly and show people that we are, well, human. It's relatability and that ability. And you certainly don't have to be a professional comedian to do that. And the example that I find myself using a lot is if humor is incredibly powerful, tool for communication in life, let alone in business. And if we forget work for a second, just think about what you look for in a partner or in a spouse. What's on your list of absolute must-haves, the non-negotiables? And I ask people to raise their hand, who has sense of humor somewhere on that list of what you look for in a partner? Most people have it pretty close to the top. Everyone raises their hand. Right? I mean, we all look for that. It's because when someone makes us laugh or smile, we feel seen and heard and understood. And that ability, that feeling doesn't have to come from— you don't need a professional to do that. You simply need the ability to observe. You need the ability to reflect what you observe. You need some emotional intelligence. You need to care. You need to want to make someone see your side, to make someone— you need to want to relate to other people.
Al ElliottWhat I'm hearing from that, Beth, is that you don't necessarily need to be a funny person. You just need to understand a little bit about how humor works. Is that right? Or what have I misunderstood?
Beth ShermanNo, you've understood that correctly and you've articulated it in Fewer words than I was able to at this hour of the morning.
Al ElliottLet's be honest. Yeah, come on. It's 9 o'clock in the morning here. This is not where late-night scriptwriters shine, is it? We should have done this at 3 o'clock in the morning. I want to ask you, I think I've heard you say, truth is funny. Is that something you've said? And what does it mean?
Beth ShermanI almost never stop saying it. I say that constantly because that's, to me, that is the key to understanding, for people who are not in comedy, that's That's the key to understanding what makes people laugh and what gets that emotional impact. Because that's really what we're trying to do. People at work or not at work, we spend a lot of time trying to persuade people to do stuff. But you can't persuade anyone to do anything until you've built trust. And how do you build trust? You build trust by getting people to feel emotion. And there are lots of emotions you can get people to feel, but happiness is one that's a little bit more fun. You can get them to feel resentment and anger. That seems to be working in some, in politics now.
Al ElliottYeah.
Beth ShermanBut you can also, if you get people to feel happiness, that's a great way to build trust and And that will persuade people. And so the easiest way to do that, and the way we do that professionally, here's the secret of comedy, is that truth is funny. Life is absurd. People are bonkers. Truth is funny. All we do as comedians is observe and report truth. And we do it with some timing in the sense of there's the element of surprise and there's self-awareness and specificity. I mean, there's ways to sort of— I was going to say manipulate. That's not the right word, but there's ways to package that truth and there's places to go to find kinds of truth that work particularly well for humor. But rather than just trying to be funny, try to be a good observer and reflect that truth back to people. And that's what creates connection. That's what creates laughter, smiles, the kinds of emotion that builds trust and persuades people to take action. And sometimes, you know, that action is buying from you, working with you. It's something big. But very often, the action you want people to take is very small. It can be as small as getting people to give you the benefit of the doubt and continue listening to you for the next— 30 seconds, and then the next 30 seconds after that.
Al ElliottI've watched some of Ricky Gervais's stuff at— now, I don't know, is it Golden Globes? There's one of them where he's reflecting back reality to a load of very, very influential and famous and wealthy people. It lands, but does it land? I mean, not everyone can go out there and do that kind of thing.
Beth ShermanI wouldn't go out there and do it at your office Christmas party. I mean, there's a First of all, it's, there's a range. You know, when they say don't try this at home? Look, I, if people go skiing and snowboarding, but then you watch the Olympics or the X Games or something like that, and you see people doing gigantic flips, you go, well, okay, yes, I go skiing, I go snowboarding. I don't try that because it's not going to end very well for me. But someone like Ricky Gervais, look, one, he's a professional, he's a great writer, and he has great writers with him. He has been asked, has been asked very specifically at the Golden Globes. The way award shows work is you come out, you do a monologue. And by the way, the point of that monologue is to name-check people in the room so the control room can get pictures of people, can get, you know, take a shot of people. You're going to mention everyone, all the big names that are there, who are there because they're nominated or just there because they're gigantic names. So when we sit down, I haven't worked on the Globes, but for other award shows, when we sit down to look at a monologue, there's a target list. And not target in the bad sense, just the people at home. If Tom Hanks is there, the people at home want a shot of Tom Hanks. And it makes the show look exciting if you get a shot of Tom Hanks. If you get, you know, anyone who's there, who is—
Al ElliottFamous.
Beth ShermanNoted, who is a big name. So what Ricky does is, yeah, his humor is edgier. He speaks a more raw type of truth. But if you look at the things that he says, they're real true. They're awfully true. But he has, he's been asked to do it. He's a trained professional. And the people who have shown up are, they know what they're there for. They know the cam— first of all, they know that there's, you know, there's a, there's, there's 3 guys in black pointing cameras at them. So they also have a pretty good sense that the next joke is going to be about them because it's the reaction shot. That said, what people listening to this can learn from that is certainly that truth is funny. I would say that when it comes to using humor to build rapport with the person you're using humor at, I also talk about in the context of humor being a love language. It's a way to say things that you wouldn't say or couldn't say directly. It's a way to say things between the lines. So if you are using it, if you are giving away awards or giving out awards at your office party or your office event, Or you've been asked to speak at a toast or something like that, yes, of course, you can speak truth and you can point out characteristics of people. I mean, I wouldn't go with physical characteristics, but you can point out behavior, you can point out trends, you can point out the elephant in the room. But I think it's very, very important if you want a good result to keep in mind, like just be very mindful of what your words, what you're saying between the lines. What is the message that you're saying to people? So if I say, you know, Al's got one of the biggest podcasts out there, he's got 400 hours of podcasts, so clearly he likes the sound of his own voice.
Al ElliottNot untrue.
Beth ShermanThat's something where hearing it as a comedian and as an editor, as a comedy writer, I hear that and I go, okay. But we're trying to keep Al onside. We're trying to make him feel good. So I would sort of wrap it a little bit in a compliment, and I would say he's got one of the number one podcasts. It's absolutely brilliant. He's done however many episodes, which adds up to about 400 hours. Like, I would sort of list the positive things about it. He's got a, how many subscribers, that kind of thing. Really big it up and make it clear that I have respect for this thing, that I have respect for the product, and I have respect for Al. And then I would, you know, so then when you say loves the sound of his own voice, then there's balance to it. And the thing that you're saying between the lines, you are very clearly saying between Overtly and more discreetly, you're saying, what a podcast. I mean, this guy is accomplished. He knows what he's doing. So that when you sort of have the gentle poke, it's all in context. It's sending out the overall message that you want to send. But again, it's looking at the full picture and it's listening to and being mindful of what it is you're saying between the lines and making that very clear for other people. Because if we structure something that way, what we're saying between the lines is, I have a lot of respect for him, so much so I might be a little bit jealous, but that's on me. That sort of thing. But if we just go right to, he likes the sound of his own voice, then what that says between the lines is, I might not like him all that much, or I don't think other people should like him, or I might be jealous, but in a small and petty way. And that's a very different message. And that means people will think differently of me as the person speaking.
Al ElliottSo we've got the situation where you've been asked to talk and people are expecting you to be funny. So that is your best man speech. That's perhaps The boss stands up at the end of the— in the Christmas party. There's those kind of situations. Quite specific. You've given us a really good guideline of how to be funny without being insulting in that situation. Let's go back into the actual office, the day-to-day. So you're just, you're sitting there next to Frank, next to Janet, and you want to kind of lighten the mood. It's a bit of a dull day. You wanna lighten the mood with humor. Would it be easy to start off with what you shouldn't do? say to Frank and Janet to lighten it?
Beth ShermanThe rule I try to have is unless everyone's laughing, everyone, unless both Frank and Janet are laughing and everybody else in the room, then it's not funny. So I think I would go with, I would look at what's happening. I would look at what's happening. I mean, why? Humor diffuses tension. What's the tension I'm trying to diffuse? So if it's, We've just lost our 3rd big client, or someone that we've just had a meeting where we found that out. I might say, well, that's, well, we have a great track record. I mean, sometimes you can just go with understatement. So you're acknowledging a truth. It's the truth is still the funny part, but you're understating things. Or you could say, Well, I think that was the best meeting we've had yet. Or you could pick some small part of what's going on to, you know, well, you know, at least we have the good cookies today. There's probably not much you can say that's gonna put Frank and Janet on the floor laughing so hard that they're holding their sides, and if Janet's over a certain age, leaking. And I say that as a woman of a certain age where it starts getting dangerous to laugh too hard. This has really become a very, maybe that's too much truth. Truth is funny, but truth is, it's seasoning, right? Think of the truth as seasoning. If you think of it like salt, not everything needs a lot, but everything needs some. So in that situation, you're not trying to go in there and do a headline standup set. You're not trying to bust out your Netflix special to make Frank and Janet feel better. You're just trying to diffuse a little bit of tension. You're trying to sprinkle in a few grains of sea salt on chocolate. Right? You're just trying to give it some balance.
Al ElliottI like that. I like that. So I think there's, unfortunately, in almost any office of any size, there's going to be one person who thinks they're funny, but they're not. First of all, why are they not funny?
Beth ShermanWell, let me, I can speak to self-awareness first, or to why they're not funny. And I would say it's often because of a lack of self-awareness. And I'd also point out that in leadership and in management, self-awareness is a pretty important thing to have. So the fact that they're not funny might not be their only flaw. It might not be the only thing that's holding them back. Self-awareness is simply, well, it's emotional intelligence, right? Self-awareness is being able to acknowledge what the other person is noticing or thinking. It's— so if someone doesn't have self-awareness, they're not going to, you know, the jokes that they make, and, you know, let's put those in air quotes, but the things that they say thinking they're funny aren't going to land well. Because they don't know their audience, and they aren't thinking about what they're trying to say between the lines, and it tends to cause tension. They're just bad at it. But I think a lot of that often goes back to a lack of self-awareness and not being funny Or their jokes not being good is often a symptom of a bigger problem.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that Encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Beth ShermanIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Leanne ElliottKeep that in.
Al ElliottDo you know what? I'm liking this because you kind of, in my head, given me a little bit of a rule, or not even a rule, but a guideline. If you go to a Jimmy Carr gig, which I have, I've been twice. If you go to someone who's a very, you know, a shocking comedian, then you have given consent for the comedian to either say something that's gonna shock you or will come pick on you for whatever reason. If you're front row, you've given me overt consent that that's what's gonna happen. Whereas what you're saying is that if someone's in an office situation, nobody's come in in the morning and given you consent, given the person in the corner consent to have the mickey ripped out of them. Is that right?
Beth ShermanLook, I think Jimmy Carr is very funny. He's not my particular taste, but that doesn't mean he's not funny. I've— he's, he's made me laugh. Would I pay $50 to go see him? Probably not. But I mean, he's great at what he does. So yeah, it— if you put yourself in that position, you know what you're going to get. I mean, it's like ordering the, the something spicy off a menu. If it, if it says that it's spicy, if it's got those little, you know, the— how many— if it's got 3 peppers next to it, on the menu, don't be surprised. But if someone says, here, try this, and it's crazy spicy and they haven't warned you, then that is an unwelcome surprise. But by that same token, it would mean that person did not have the self-awareness to say, maybe you should tell people this is about to happen to them. The office also, again, we're talking, everything I'm saying is talking about it in the context of business where you're trying to build relationships, you're trying to make your business better. You're trying to draw in clients. You're trying to have better relationships with colleagues. You're trying to move things forward. That's an entirely different animal than getting up on stage at a comedy club where, again, everyone's given their consent. Everyone knows why they're there. There are things that I would— and I speak about humor to business audiences, but there are I wouldn't do my act, or there are jokes that I used to do that I would never do in front of a business audience because they are potentially divisive. And I just, I wouldn't do them only because my main objective is showing people how humor is a tool to bring people together. And again, it's not just about humor, it's humanity and relatability. And in leadership, You don't have to go around giving out hugs, and you don't have to go around giving people, hey, it's Coffee Thursday, and it's Beanbag Wednesday, and look, there's cake in the conference room. Maybe it's just acknowledging that whatever's coming down from head office is interesting, or that sometimes it can feel like a moving target, or talking to someone and asking how things are at home. It's just more of a— it's showing people that inside the authority is an actual human.
Al ElliottI think a lot of people want to be humorous at work, but they're not really sure how to start. If you were to coach someone to try and be a little bit more funny, where would you start? Where should you be Starting from?
Beth ShermanI wouldn't try to coach someone to be— if someone came to me and said, I want to be funnier at work, I would cringe a bit. I would say, but what do you mean by that? Do you mean that you give lots of presentations and you find that your audience is not engaged? So are you trying to make them more engaging? Are you trying to keep people's attention? Is that it? And where humor might be one part of how we do it, But humanity, storytelling, relatability, that sort of thing. Or does someone just picture, I'm going to go into work and stand by the coffee machine and just, and people will be, it'll be my Netflix special every morning while I'm waiting for the Keurig to brew something. But really when it comes to just Creating that safe feeling, that feeling of trust and rapport, I would say the first thing to do is to pay attention to how you do it outside of work. And people always think, oh, I'm not a funny person. Well, you don't have to be. Do you make your partner laugh or smile ever?
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Beth ShermanDo you make your kids laugh? Do you make your friends laugh? If you go out for a drink with your friends or you're just hanging out, you probably laugh a fair amount. With your friends or smile, right? So I would say, be mindful in those situations. When you're being yourself, what are you doing? Are you telling stories? Are you using understatement? Are you using exaggeration? Are you just smiling a lot? Are you— Pointing things out? Are you seeing the bright side of things? Are you— what is it that you're doing that draws people in, in those situations? You're probably not saying, all right, here's my set. I've got 10 jokes. Are you ready? This is what I have. I'm going to do a tight 5-minute set during dinner. You're listening and you're probably reflecting back to people, you're observing things, you're commenting on things. We all do it, so pay attention to the times when you do it. And if you had a colleague or someone that was having a particularly bad day or bad week and you saw that every day they went to Starbucks, whatever treat that you'd noticed, something that they had enough so that you noticed it was something they enjoyed and just kind of left it on their desk? Would that work? Would that make them smile? Would that make them think that you had their best interests at heart? Would that make them— would that build trust and rapport? I mean, I'll use an example. Someone said to me the other day, actually, because I was I was describing my job as in— someone was asking about writers' rooms. I spent most of my career in writers' rooms and someone was asking about that and how that worked. And one of the things I was talking about was some great advice that I got very early on, which was, you have one job and that's to make the head writer's life Easier. I mean, I think that's in broad strokes is a great recipe for success, or at least to do well at work. You have one job. Your real job is to make your boss's life easier. And usually, most of that is be a good employee, be good at your job, all of those things. But I was describing a moment when we were in production and things were sort of happening, it was just a bit bonkers as usually that is. You know, there's always a window in a project where things get a little crazy. And I mentioned I had a habit of if I stopped for a coffee in the morning, I'd always get a second coffee or I'd get, you know, an extra couple of pastries, just something. Because I knew from how the show was working and what the situation was that I would get there and he probably hadn't had time to stop because he would have walked in and got pulled up into meetings with the higher-ups where he was doing a lot of running and was running a lot of interference for the rest of us and saving us a lot of unnecessary work later in the day. So, yeah, so I would say, you know, get an extra coffee, get an extra pastry. If he didn't want it, yeah. Someone would. And the person I was talking to said, so you just went and got coffee? Yeah. I couldn't, to me, it didn't make sense that someone would see that in a negative way. I think she thought, well, you're a woman and you're getting coffee. I was like, no, no, no, that's not what this was. This was, I was building trust and rapport. He was building trust and rapport by making our lives easier. And in doing that, I knew that he probably wouldn't have a chance to take care of some of his needs, maybe a little caffeine and sugar. And did that buy me goodwill? Well, I worked steadily for 27 years, so I think maybe. Look, it's humanity. It's, first of all, smiles, little things add up. You don't need to get some giant knee-slapping moment. Small gestures add up. And what's the result that you want? You want to build trust. You want to create positive emotion to build trust, to persuade people to take action. So make someone feel good. Make someone feel like you're thinking about them. You want them to have a good experience. In whatever direction that goes, that builds trust and rapport. It's relationship building. And you need to have that trust before anyone's going to take action. I mean, humor is one way to do it, but yeah, a smile is Plenty. It's that good feeling. It's the emotion that's the important part. The laugh is a byproduct. It's the emotion that you want them to feel. A lot of what I talk about is it's building connection, right? You have to build connection, and comedians are very good at building connection quickly because we have to be. If we don't build connection pretty much immediately with our audience, nothing else we do works. And as comedians, we have to build that trust very quickly. And we're trying to build trust so that people will continue listening. And we're trying to build trust that this is going to be a good experience, and that we want the audience to feel that they're in good hands. So with a comic, your most important joke, well, your 2 most important jokes, your opener, And your closer. And that opener is really important because you need to have something, you need to hit them right up front with something that is usually very self-aware, not self-deprecating, those are 2 different things, but something that is very self-aware that acknowledges that where you're reflecting back to your audience what's in that thought bubble above their head because that creates connection and it will probably be true. And you have to get a laugh. You have to create an emotion, and in the case of a comedian, big emotion. I mean, you've got maybe 5 seconds to do that. I mean, if your opening joke dies or if people are just sitting there waiting for you to say something funny, you're digging yourself, best case scenario, you're digging yourself into a hole. Whereas if you can come up and just open with something really strong, then you've got the wind at your back. Now you're working to continue your momentum instead of digging yourself out of a hole. And that's when I work with people who speak for a living or who just speak as part of work, that's what you're trying to do with your audience. Look, you can go up and be giving a speech about anything, forensic accounting. You don't have to make people fall out of their chairs laughing, but you have to hook them. You have to create emotion quickly. I mean, most, I speak for a living and in business situations, in most of the places we do that, most of the audience is not there of their own free will. Most of them are there because it's a work thing, or they're at a conference and it was kind of a toss-up. Maybe your talk sounded marginally less boring or marginally more interesting than the other one that's going on at the same time, or you're the opening keynote and they don't have any choice, right? They're just there, or you're there to speak, you're human resources and everyone just got pushed into the room and they have to sit and listen to you. But if you can make them feel emotion, if you can acknowledge something at the very beginning, that if you can acknowledge what they're thinking, now people, now their ears are perked up. Now you've set a tone. Now you've shown them that, well, you've shown them a few things. You've shown them that you know what they're thinking and that you're relating to them. You've shown them that you're present, that you're not just going up there and reciting something, which a lot of people tend to do, especially when they speak often. And you've also shown them that you want them to have a good time, or at least you care about their level of engagement. It's a two-way street.
Al ElliottBeth, you just said something there which confused me. You said, Don't— there's a difference between self-deprecating and self-awareness.
Beth ShermanYes.
Al ElliottAs you said that, I remember distinctly watching a comic for the very first time. It was on TV on the Montreal Comedy Summit. So this would be like 25 years ago, probably. And he came on and he'd got a really big nose. And the first thing he came out and said, you're probably wondering why someone's glued an elbow to my face. And immediately, like, me and my brother were like, oh, this is really funny. You know, he seems like, oh yeah, we're open for the rest of him because But that's self-deprecating, not self-aware, is it?
Beth ShermanWell, it's a little bit of both. And I'll say that it's a fine line between the two. And I will also say that usually the people I'm speaking to are not people who are getting gigs at Montreal at the comedy festival. I'm speaking to Dave from accounting who has to give a presentation. So there is this sort of professional license. But being self-deprecating, so being self-aware is simply acknowledging what your audience might be noticing or thinking. Being self-deprecating is putting yourself down just to get a laugh. And you can do it and it works. But when people worry about humor potentially undermining credibility, That's the kind of thing that often does it, especially if you're something that I like to call a woman or a person of color or any other minority, because we don't know the biases of the people that we're speaking to. And if there's already the chance that someone's looking at you and thinking that you're less than, why are you going to make their argument for them? So the distinction between being self-deprecating and being self-aware, being self-aware doesn't have any judgment on it. So I have a joke when I explain this. The way I usually do this in my talks is I'll say, well, self-awareness is simply acknowledging whatever your audience might be noticing or thinking. For example, you're probably noticing my haircut and thinking I must be gay. Now, you'd be wrong. I'm married to a man. Sorry, sorry. I'm married to Amanda. Lovely, lovely redheaded British woman. So it, and it's very stupid. It's a dumb joke, but it's one of those where I, the first time I thought, really, that worked? And it works every time, so I do it. But the important thing about that example is it doesn't have judgment with it. I mean, no one— it's not gay is good, gay is bad, gay is whatever. People laugh. It's only because they've been sitting there at that point, probably for 8, 9, 10 minutes going, well, okay, 2 2 4.
Al ElliottHmm.
Beth ShermanAnd so when I say, you're probably thinking, and that's not language that you always need to use. You don't always need to say it directly. But when I say that, That creates connection because I'm in their head. And that's empathy. I mean, that's, wow, she knew what I was thinking. That's feeling seen and heard and understood. But there is no judgment attached to it. Now, people might have their own judgments that they're attaching to it, but it sure didn't come from me. I'm just simply acknowledging And self-awareness can also be, when I coach speakers, people speak about subjects, forensic accounting. I use that example because I had a client who spoke about that. And it's not, if you assumed it could be a little dry, you'd be right. So That's something that I suggested he acknowledge at the beginning, but he sort of— but then he surpasses that expectation. He makes it much more interesting.
Al ElliottBeth, help me out. I have the darkest, most horrific sense of humor, and I love it when other people do. For example, my friends quite often call me David Guest because I've got a face like a melted candle. And it is horrific, but I enjoy it because that's our love language between our friends. And, you know, I'll criticize him for something physical or what he does at work. I know that's not cool at work, but coach me. How do I still keep my sense of humor without really offending people or ending up in HR?
Beth ShermanThere's a lot of ways to say things. So I would say err on the side of safety if it's in the context of work. But also sometimes you don't have to say things explicitly. I've got stuff in my business talks and keynotes that you can sort of lead someone in a direction and then be shocked that they would draw those conclusions. Get your mind out of the gutter. That's not what I meant. You know, you can sort of give them the raw material or just do it with an eyebrow or just a no, no. If there's something that you just sort of can't leave, if it's something that it's just way too tempting, that's why God made euphemisms. So I would say, yeah, I would say filter it. Imagine your most restrictive loved one, and the key is loved one, but imagine your most restrictive loved one as your audience. And also try to see if there's a more, see if there's a gentler way to say things because people can read between the lines. It's why I talk about humor as a love language. People can read between the lines. So if you want to say something or you just can't help yourself from saying something that might lean a little edgier, how can you soften it? How can you make it more subtle? How can you have someone draw their own— how can you have someone write that punchline themselves?
Al ElliottThere's a lot of comedians who will turn around, say something edgy, the audience will laugh, and they'll go, you did that, not me. You did that. And there seems to be— I really enjoy comedians like Tim Minchin, who I absolutely adore, who allow you to to get the punchline slightly before the punchline comes so you feel intelligent that you've got it, but they're allowing you to do it. Is that a deliberate move on their part?
Beth ShermanYeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a deliberate move to sort of have your cake and eat it too. There are people that do clean, they call it clean comedy. There's a guy called Jim Gaffigan who's fantastic. And it's clean comedy in the sense that he doesn't say naughty words, But he certainly acknowledges the existence of sex and all sorts of things. He's not naive. It's not childish comedy. It's just he's able to say things more indirectly. Yeah, and let people draw their own conclusions. I think it's a challenge. It's a great challenge to be more creative about it, to be more expressive about it, because sometimes you can— With just a pause or a raised eyebrow, you can let people draw their own conclusions. And it has the double benefit, the one that you're talking about that people think, well, aren't I clever? Plus you come off smelling like a rose because you didn't do it. You have plausible deniability.
Al ElliottBeth, if someone's listening and goes, I need you in my workplace, what would you go in and do for them?
Beth ShermanI do keynote speaking, a lot of conference speaking, and I do group training and one-to-one presentations, coaching all around how to really, at this point, how to be more human and how to build trust and rapport quickly using the principles of comedy. And it applies really well to things like sales where you have to build trust and rapport quickly with prospective clients and you have to keep clients coming back to you and you have to create and develop and nurture relationships because in an increasingly automated world, that's really your most valuable tool is being human. People can get your product from lots of different sources. Why are they going to choose you? They're going to choose you. Because there's a relationship. And I also do a lot of speaking around presentation skills, how people who deliver material and are teaching and are passionate, how they can use humor and humanity and relatability to persuade more effectively.
Leanne ElliottThat was Beth Sherman, and I hope that conversation makes you think differently about your next presentation or sales call or meeting.
Al ElliottWhat struck me most was the whole idea that the truth is funny. It sounds really simple, but when you really think about it, Those moments that genuinely connect with people aren't the rehearsed jokes. They're the observations that makes everyone go, yeah, exactly that.
Leanne ElliottAnd that distinction she made between self-awareness and self-deprecation, I think a lot of us, especially probably women and other minorities, as she pointed out, we've been trained to put ourselves down to seem likable, but that's not what builds trust. It's just acknowledging what's already in the room, like her haircut joke. There's no judgment. She's just saying, I know what you're thinking. And that's okay. That's powerful.
Al ElliottAnd I love that line about being human in an increasingly automated world. People can get your product from lots of sources, but they choose you because of the relationship. That's not going away with AI. If anything, it's becoming more valuable. Speaking of valuable things, Beth's got a book coming out through Blue Goat Books that dives deeper into all of this. If you want to work with her, whether it's keynote speaking, group training, or presentation coaching, head to bethsherman.com.
Leanne ElliottThat's B-E-T-H And if you've ever felt that pressure to be funny in a presentation or a sales meeting, go check out her work, because what she's really teaching us is how to be more human, and that's something we could all use a little bit more of.
Al ElliottThat's it for this week. If this episode made you rethink how you communicate at work, please share it with someone who really needs to hear it.
Leanne ElliottAnd remember, you don't need to be funny, you just need to be observant.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies, and Work. We'll see you next week.