Episode 298 · 5 May 2026 · 53:20
Dry chatting, Gen-Z CEOs and toxic bosses. PLUS! The science behind 'bring your dog to work day'
Dry chatting, Gen-Z CEOs and toxic bosses. PLUS! The science behind 'bring your dog to work day'
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Story 1: Six words defining the new world of work
news roundup#future-of-work#workplace-trends
Story 2: The Gen-Z career ladder is being rebuilt
news roundup#gen-z#career#career-ladder
Story 3: Is toxic leadership the new norm?
news roundup#toxic-leadership#leadership#workplace-culture
Truth or Lie: Bring your dog to work day
truth or lie#pets-at-work#office-culture#truth-or-lie
Workplace Surgery: Asking for feedback and not acting on it
workplace surgery#feedback#management#workplace-advice
Workplace Surgery: Why isn't anyone using our wellbeing benefits?
workplace surgery#wellbeing#employee-benefits#engagement
Workplace Surgery: If people keep leaving, is it really a hiring problem?
workplace surgery#turnover#hiring#retention
Show notes
Dry Chatting, Gen-Z CEOs & Toxic Bosses — Plus! The Science Behind 'Bring Your Dog to Work Day'
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the six words defining the new world of work (including "dry chatting"), why Gen Z is rebuilding the career ladder from scratch, and the sobering stat that 6 in 10 workers currently have a toxic boss. Plus, in Truth or Lie: does bringing your dog to work actually support mental health? And a bumper Workplace Surgery with three tough listener questions.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Six Words Defining the New World of Work Leanne introduces "dry chatting" — rehearsing emotionally charged work conversations with AI before having them in real life. Also covered: meaning-maxxing (optimising life around purpose rather than status), rage applying (cathartic job applications), false retention (staying for security, not engagement), vibe working and the anti-office (AI and office design prioritising "progress over productivity"). Source →
2. The Gen-Z Career Ladder Is Being Rebuilt With entry-level hiring at its lowest rate since 2020 and AI automating "learn-the-ropes" tasks, Gen Z is pivoting to ownership. Al and Leanne discuss 22-year-old Celeste Amadon, who turned down a JP Morgan internship, raised $9 million in venture capital and became a CEO — and why "the new promise is ownership" might be the most honest career advice yet. Source →
3. Is Toxic Leadership the New Norm? A new study reveals 6 in 10 workers currently have a toxic boss — not at some point in their career, right now. Nearly half of employees (47%) say their boss's behaviour negatively affects their mental health. Al and Leanne dig into why companies seem more invested in AI than in developing people managers. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: Bring Your Dog to Work Day
Does having a "fluffy colleague" actually support mental health? Leanne walks through the research:
The Truth: Some studies suggest dogs act as a stress buffer and increase workplace engagement. A 2019 study by Hall and Mills found dog-owning employees who brought their dogs to work reported stronger workplace friendships and were less likely to be thinking about leaving. A 2024 study of 379 pet-owning employees found pet-friendly policies linked to higher organisational belonging.
The Lie: The evidence is surprisingly weak. Most studies rely on self-reporting, and the big reviews couldn't conduct a meta-analysis because the research is too inconsistent. For the 15–30% of people with allergies or phobias, a dog-friendly office can be a major source of stress. Plus: pets have caused an estimated 86,000 fall-related injuries in the US.
Verdict: A "looth" — it's a try, not a truth. Ask people how they feel before you roll it out.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Feedback fatigue: "We regularly survey our people and ask for feedback, but we don't always act on what comes back. Are we building trust by listening, or damaging it by not following through?"
- Unused benefits: "We offer a range of wellbeing benefits — support resources, initiatives, time off — but hardly anyone actually uses them. What are we missing?"
- The 12-month exodus: "We bring in good people, but a pattern's emerging where they leave within the first 12 months. Is this a recruitment issue, or something happening once they're inside the business?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne Elliott6 in 10 workers say they are currently working for a toxic boss. Not at some point in their career, that's right now. Historically, it's actually worse. So has toxic leadership become a norm in our workplaces? And what does that say about how organisations are actually developing their managers?
Al ElliottNow, Gen-Z, yes, Gen-Z again, they're finding it harder than ever to get on the career ladder, but some of them aren't waiting around. They're building their own rungs. More on that later.
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, bring your dog to work day. It's built on the idea that dogs in the office support positive mental health and reduce stress. But does the research actually back that up? I have had the best time researching this one.
Al ElliottI bet you have. And in the workplace surgery, one business owner says they offer a range of wellbeing benefits, but hardly anybody actually uses them, and they want to know why.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to.
Leanne ElliottAnd my name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, and I'm here to answer them. And together we help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWe'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems, And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello, welcome back, welcome back. Happy Tuesday, or do you know what, happy day wherever you're listening to the day. There's no rules here.
Leanne ElliottThere are no rules here.
Al ElliottThere are no rules.
Leanne ElliottClearly.
Al ElliottClearly. If you were in the UK, then hopefully you had a lovely Bank Holiday Monday yesterday.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah.
Al ElliottYes, it was lovely. Was it sunny in the UK for Bank Holiday Monday?
Leanne ElliottI don't, I don't know.
Al ElliottI don't know.
Leanne ElliottI didn't hear much about it, so I'm gonna go say probably not.
Al ElliottNo, no. Well, if you are from the UK, then sorry, it was beautifully sunny here. It was about 25 degrees and we sat out in the sun and had a beer. It was lovely. Anyway, Leanne. I was gonna say barbecue. We had a barbecue. We did, right? We do this trout, what Leanne likes to call a trout sandwich, and it's not what you think. Basically, you get 2 sides of trout. I'm showing you by using my hands. This is an audio medium.
Leanne ElliottImagine one hand is one side of trout and the other hand is the other side of trout.
Al ElliottAnd then Leanne does this lovely sort of like onion mix that you spread.
Leanne ElliottSpiced onion mix.
Al ElliottAnd you spread between the 2, shut them, put them in one of those big basket, fish basket things, and put them on the barbecue. And it is just beautiful.
Leanne ElliottDelicious.
Al ElliottDelicious.
Leanne ElliottWe had that With some gambas pil pil, some prawns with garlic and chilli.
Al ElliottDone on the barbecue. Well, obviously not done on the barbecue, done in a pot on the coals.
Leanne ElliottAnd asparagus. Asparagus season.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottMakes us very happy.
Al ElliottMakes our pee smell funny.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And what else did we have?
Al ElliottI think we might have, we might have, we might, we might be better moving on, you know?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOkay. This is boring me.
Leanne ElliottIs it? Do you want the recipe? Let me know.
Al ElliottYes, definitely. Definitely. Okay, so it's time for—
Leanne ElliottNo, I've got something else.
Al ElliottOh, okay.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottCrack on, Lee. What have you got?
Leanne ElliottHave you seen that the Big C is on tour, and I'm not talking about Donald Trump.
Al ElliottOh, is that broadcastable? Uh, no, I don't know what the big C is. I don't know what the big C is.
Leanne ElliottKing Charles III. Oh, Charlie.
Al ElliottOh no, yes, C for Charlie. Got it, got it. Oh, sorry.
Leanne ElliottYeah, all right, you're right, King is with a K. That says everything about the level of intelligence you think I actually have.
Al ElliottSo KC and his Sunshine Band are on tour.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd he did.
Leanne ElliottOh, he's— well, he's been, he's been to the States. He's been visiting, um, Trump and the First Lady, and he has absolutely smashed it.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottLike, normally it's all a bit cringe, isn't it, when you watch, you watch your royals on, on tour, or particularly, you know, King Charles, former prince, from the monarch formerly known as Prince.
Al ElliottOh, well done.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, he smashed it. But, and there's loads of coverage on this, and I'm sure the majority of our listeners would have, would have seen it, but I wanted to share some with you because I'm not sure you'd have seen it.
Al ElliottNo, I won't.
Leanne ElliottAnd for anyone who seen it, I think it's a really nice, important message right now when things seem— what did you call it yesterday? We were sat chatting and you went, humanity is in a dark place right now.
Al ElliottDid I say that?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. Anyway, this is—
Al ElliottIt's very strange day yesterday.
Leanne ElliottKing Charles III addressing the US Congress. Are you ready?
Al ElliottYes, hit me. The Supreme Court Historical Society has calculated that Magna Carta is cited in at least 160 Supreme Court cases since 1789, not least as the foundation of the principle that executive power is subject to checks and balances.
Leanne ElliottThere's more. I mean, there's a lot more, but that's kind of the main bit. And that applause goes on for some time. Congress basically all stand up, Republicans and Democrats alike, and applaud, uh, Mr. King Charlie for quite some time. And I think what I really liked about— he's basically calling out Trump and going, right, executive power is open to checks and balances. Magna Carta is like the whole point of that the people runs the government and controls the government is embedded in your society, your lawmaking, your justice system. And it's the British monarch who's kind of going, don't forget who you are, guys. Do you remember this whole independence thing that you insisted on leaving us because you wanted liberty and freedom? That's cool. And we agree with it. And I just feel like it's a really nice point for anyone who's just lost all hope, that there are still plenty of people, including leaders who really have no business commenting on this type of thing, and usually stay out of politics. And he did it brilliantly in terms of he never directly got political, but he did talk about NATO, he talked about security, he talked about all sorts of things. And I just thought it was a nice moment of anyone who's feeling a bit low and lost right now about all the things that are continuing to happen, In the US and across the world. There are great people out there. Great, great people who want to do the right thing. And it's part, you know, it's just ingrained, isn't it? It will swing back is what I'm trying to say.
Al ElliottHope.
Leanne ElliottYou're looking at me as if I'm going to cut all this out because it's nonsense.
Al ElliottNot at all. No, no, I'm listening to you. I don't know anything about this. So this is cool. Thank you. Thank you for that. I like that I get my news through you.
Leanne ElliottYeah, no worries. He also gave Donald Trump a bell. It was from HMS Trump, which was like a naval ship in the '40s. I think it actually retired not long after the Second World War. Because you know that also Trump has been slagging off the British Navy.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottWhich obviously Prince Charles's father served in the Navy. I'm not sure. I think Prince King Charles did at some point.
Al ElliottRight. Okay.
Leanne ElliottAnd basically gave him a bell as if to go, I mean, which has so many connotations anyway. Um, and was basically like, so next time you need the British, just give us a ring.
Al ElliottOh, nice, nice.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, go look at it. I feel like it's funnier to watch.
Al ElliottWell, we'll find out. We look forward to your emails. Okay, Leanne, should we— can we move on to the—
Leanne ElliottBest have.
Al ElliottOkay, so is that Leanne's favourite time of the week? It is the— what time is it, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottUh, it's time for the news roundup. Cue that jingle.
Al ElliottJingle, jingle, cue. Leanne, what have you seen?
Leanne ElliottI've got a new word.
Al ElliottGo, go, go, go.
Leanne ElliottDry chatting.
Al ElliottI suppose it's better than wet chatting, isn't it? Dry chat. I'm guessing dry chatting is something like where you just either you're boring or it's like a dry run for a chat.
Leanne ElliottOn the right lines.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottYeah, dry run is, is, is a good way to think. Any final guesses with that in mind?
Al ElliottIt's, it's practicing Chitchat.
Leanne ElliottYes, but how?
Al ElliottWith the dog.
Leanne ElliottNo, no, it's, it's, it's very, very close. I will give you a B minus.
Al ElliottOh, still better than my GCSEs.
Leanne ElliottBasically, it means dry chatting is when you rehearse an emotionally charged work conversation with AI before having it in real life.
Al ElliottOh, okay. Well, that makes sense.
Leanne ElliottIt does. Yeah. Dry, dry chatting. So Yeah, this is in— I think this is in The Times or The Sunday Times, I'm not sure which one, because you know when you just like read it online, it just says The Times and The Sunday Times and you're not sure where it comes from.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, basically it was talking about how if you want to request a pay rise or if you've got conflict with a colleague, the staff are dry chatting with large language models like ChatGPT and Claude and the like so they can walk into the real conversation feeling more prepared. Uh, there was some commentary on this from somebody called Kat Thomas who said much of the discussion around AI is focused on speed and productivity, but one of the biggest workplace shifts is how it boosts confidence, especially for women. So yeah, apparently people are using AI as a private rehearsal room for difficult conversations. And of course, we know that rehearsing these types of conversations can help people organize their thoughts. They can test wording, anticipate responses before it's all a bit, a bit real and a bit high risk. And for many people, especially those who aren't naturally assertive, it has apparently been the difference between them staying silent and speaking up our thoughts.
Al ElliottDo you know who placed this in the Sunday Times?
Leanne ElliottI only now know after I read it and wanted to use it, and I was very pleased to hear it was from this person.
Al ElliottI didn't know you were going to do this article, and this morning I was speaking to the lovely Ellie Glasson from Glasson PR. About Kat Thomas. So Kat will be on the show.
Leanne ElliottWell, there you go. It's a small old world, isn't it?
Al ElliottIt is. It is. Oh, this is cool. Oh, I really like this. I really like this. And also, by the way, Kat sounds absolutely incredible. Amazing.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what's your thoughts on dry chatting?
Al ElliottDry chatting? I do it all the time. Sometimes I do it without actually following up with a wet chat, which is a real life chat. I do this all the All time. the time. I will, I will gabble for about— gabble's a word— for about 2 and a half minutes, um, at, at Claude and then say, Claude, what the hell have I just said there? What's the most important bits in it? And Claude usually go, right, well, you waffled for 1 minute 90, and then you've got— 1 minute 90? That's not how time works. You waffled for a minute. I'm not, I'm not on form today. I think I had too many beers yesterday. Um, and, uh, yeah, I definitely, definitely, definitely use that and I love it.
Leanne ElliottSo, but I hadn't thought about doing it I think we need to stop saying wet chat.
Al ElliottWet chat, wet chat, wet chat.
Leanne ElliottThis is disrespectful to the Times and all who contributed to this article. Yeah, no, I think it's quite, it's quite a useful thing, isn't it? I think it's actually just using technology to execute a technique that psychologists and management consultants and experts have talked about for a long, long time in terms of having difficult conversations. It's rehearsing it, seeing saying how it goes, and then it out loud and getting your words together in the kind of the tone and cadence you want to. So yeah, I love that we can now use AI for things like this. This was actually part of a larger article that, that was basically 6 words that are now defining the workforce. So I've got 5 others and I think, I think you'll know more than 50% of them. Do you wanna test yourself?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottQuickfire.
Al ElliottGo.
Leanne ElliottRage applying.
Al ElliottApplying for jobs when you're angry because you're fed up with the current job.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Vibe working.
Al ElliottThat's when you just, you use AI to do most of your work.
Leanne ElliottYep. Anti-office.
Al ElliottThat is when you don't like an office.
Leanne ElliottNo, this is the one I hadn't heard of actually. And this is one that will be, which you'll recognise in terms of a name. So this is the definition: workplaces designed for humans rather than employees with softer lighting, natural materials, and quiet corners. We talked a lot about that. Clarkemount Design Week, didn't we? Do you remember we were the official podcast of Clarkemount Design Week? That was fun. Actually, I don't think it was, was it? But anyway, you don't know.
Al ElliottNo fact-checking, please. Thank you, Dr. Jake, by the way, for fact-checking me on last week's, uh, he sent me an email going, where'd you get that stat from? I'm like, uh, my rectum. I may have just—
Leanne ElliottOh really? I saw it and I did too wonder where that came from.
Al ElliottIt came from a tweet and the tweet didn't have any attribution, so I was like, dude, I'm sorry, sorry, as a scientist you're Anyway, right, so that was, that was the third word.
Leanne ElliottSo anti-office, and there was commentary on this from Dani Mohammed.
Al ElliottWe like Dani.
Leanne ElliottWho was on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago, uh, founder of Gentle Forces. And she said, for years offices have been designed around visibility, desk density, and efficiency. What have we designed for progress versus productivity? Like that. Um, and the final one, meaning-maxing.
Al ElliottUh, getting the most amount of meaning out of your work.
Leanne ElliottYeah, basically optimising your life around purpose rather than status. What an idea. What a world we would live in if people did that. So yeah, I thought it was quite interesting actually in terms of all the different things that are defining our workplace at the minute. And I think there is definitely overall a feeling that people are being a lot more mindful and intentional about how they work. And I think that's going to come and bite some organisations in the bottom when the economy eventually swings around. But there you go. I will leave a link in the show notes. Al, what have you seen?
Al ElliottWell, I've been reading The Guardian this week and feeling very fancy.
Leanne ElliottOh, I'm sure a lot of people who know you'd be very surprised to hear that you read The Guardian.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah. To be fair, I mean, and it keeps coming up saying you should be paying for this. And I'm like, do you know what? You're right. And I'm, I'm, I'm, if you're listening, editor or owner of The Guardian, I will probably pay for it in the future because I do, I do read it and it is really, really good articles anyway. So he was talking about Gen Zed and basically the background is that in the United States, their hiring has slumped to its lowest since 2020, which is Obviously, what was that just before the pandemic? Unemployment for Americans between the ages of 22 and 27 is at its highest level since the pandemic. So basically what we're saying is the people who just graduated, who just entered into the workforce, they can't get jobs. Now you might think, oh, well, it's tough economy, everyone's struggling. And that is true. But here's what makes it specific to this particular age group. These are entry-level jobs they're going for. Obviously, that's how, that's why it's called entry level. That's where we start.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd they're supposed to be this first rung on a career ladder, but they're the ones that are most exposed to AI. So it's the sort of like, you know, the sort of routine, more routine stuff, the stuff where you sort of learn the ropes and then you move up. That's all being taken over. Not all. That's a lot of that's been taken over by AI. And so Gen Z, this is the generation that we're told, get your degree, work hard, follow the path. They're coming to the workplace and going, great, I'm ready for my job. Yeah. And there are people who've done like four years in marketing, and they're working in B and Q. You know, and and there was one bit in this. I don't think I made a note of the person, but they said that Home Depot actually, I think it's American B and Q. And she said that she works in the power tools section, and she spends her lunch break scrolling through trying to find other jobs, which sounds very very sad. What this article is saying is that Gen Z are basically making their own wrongs, so they're starting their own businesses or starting. There's a woman called Shola West. She's 25. She's based in London. She spent her early 20s working at media agencies, and then one day she started a new job. And I'm just reading the article, and within weeks her entire team was laid off. So she went back out to the job market and decided that working for someone else in this climate wasn't the most secure bet. So what did she do? Start her own brand consultancy. She now works with Paramount or Sony Music as well. Um, she said, she told The Guardian, I was kind of forced to leave my job. Now, this— well, interestingly, and this isn't a founder origin story, this is someone who got pushed into founding, foundationing, and decided to run with it. Thoughts?
Leanne ElliottInteresting. I think there is a, a big chunk of listeners who will call themselves, as I do, a geriatric millennial, which basically means you were born at some point between 1980 and 1985, that also experiences the same thing. very thing that I think probably geriatric Gen Zs are now, aren't they? Because we've got the Gen Alphas joining the workforce or starting to go to— onto, um, higher education stuff. Because I graduated in 2008, which is a great time in terms of the global financial crisis, even though Al laughs at me every time I use that.
Al ElliottJesus.
Leanne ElliottThe great crash, whatever you want to call it, the credit crunch, the housing crisis. Basically, the world was on fire. fire and nobody had any money and everyone was out of a job. So I went through a similar, a similar experience. But I think the difference now with Gen Z and with all of us actually is that even if you do get that job, the way the cost of living crisis is, that salary is not enough. You need more. I think a side hustle is now just kind of what everybody needs to just have a decent life.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah. So you live off what you, um, And you play off your side hustle. You play off your side hustle. Yeah, totally agree. Well, it also, there was another woman in this called Celeste Amadon. Yeah, great name.
Leanne ElliottCeleste. That's a nice name.
Al ElliottIt's a nice name. Celeste Amadon. Uh, she was 22 and she had an investment banking internship at JP Morgan lined up. The kind of thing, very fancy, very fancy.
Leanne ElliottThey're not a fan of Gen Z though, are they?
Al ElliottNo, they're not. However, she ended up saying no to the internship.
Leanne ElliottGuancelaste.
Al ElliottWhich her mum was furious about. Yeah. Yeah. And raised $9 million in venture capital and became a CEO of, I think it's Known is the thing she's created. I'm sorry. Did you know what? I'm sorry.
Leanne ElliottThat's less of a side hustle and it sounds more like a very successful startup, pal. $9 million.
Al ElliottTo be fair, now I think—
Leanne ElliottSide hustles are like selling your clothes on Vinted, aren't they?
Al ElliottLet me tell you why I want— why this caught my eye is because Because she said basically when they asked her, The Guardian asked her, said, well, now she's been in there, what, 3 years? She said, doing her own startup. And she now learned, she now learned how to hire, how to fire, how to manage a team, how to allocate million dollars of funding. Anything that in a traditional career she'd spend 20 years building up to, to learning those kind of skills, she's got 'em at 22. Well, 23 now, I think actually.
Leanne ElliottOr she thinks she's got 'em at 22. Let's be honest, because how have you learned to Hire and fire and lead and whatever else, you know, because that's a hard thing to do, which is why people listen to this.
Al ElliottYes. So if you're listening, Celeste, then we can help. We can definitely help. You have $9 million. We'll take a million of them. Thank you very much.
Leanne ElliottVery inspiring though, isn't it? I think it's—
Al ElliottI think, I think the whole thing is inspiring. I think it's summed up by, uh, this woman Francesca Albo, who said, and this is what she was saying about the, about moving, about creating her own, uh, opportunity, she said the old promise of jobs was stability. The new promise is ownership. And I thought that was really cool. Leanne, any thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I'm not sure the old promise of stability has been much of a thing for a while. I think, I think really it's the last, well, yeah, probably since 2009, '10, so what, the last 15 years where it's just been chaotic. I feel like in my personal career, I had this really nice period between, say, like 2013 and 2016. Before Brexit, maybe 17, where it all felt fairly like— not easy because you're still working, aren't you? But it felt somewhat stable. And that included me getting made redundant. Yeah, it feels more stable than the last 5, 6 years have been.
Al ElliottYeah, good point.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, I think— I'm not sure it's a new thing, but I'm, I'm pleased to hear that, that Gen Z are leaning into their entrepreneurship. And I think a lot of I think the majority of people are, whether it be on that scale, or like I said, selling things on Vinted or doing car boot sales or, you know, doing design work on the side. I think there's just so many people needing to do more, both in terms of meaningful work, work that they enjoy, extra income, or professional challenges, and just, yeah, safety net. I like it.
Al ElliottOkay, Le, lovely. What else have you seen this week?
Leanne Elliott6 in 10 workers say they currently have a toxic boss.
Al ElliottOh, 60%.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's not, not so much fun really, is it? So this was in, I think this was in Fast Company. Yeah, it was, it was in Fast Company, and it was quoting a study from the Harris Poll Thought Leadership Practice. Basically, it surveyed 1,300-odd employed US adults. It defined a toxic boss as someone whose behaviours were unfair treatment, lack of recognition, blame shifting, micromanagement, unreasonable expectations, etc. And yeah, 60% said that they currently have a toxic boss. And when they asked, have you— to people, have you ever had a toxic box— toxic boss? You're a toxic boss, Leanne. Um, that 70% of workers said that they, they have. And for LGBTQIA+ workers, that Increased to 75%.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottYeah, there's some interesting and sad-making stats in this. So nearly half of employees, 47%, say their boss's behaviour is stressing them out, burning them out, or harming their mental health. Around a third said they've lost money because of a bad boss, either missing out on financial rewards or having their chances of promotion stalled. And 66% said they, they work harder to try and meet their boss's demands, including working Weekends and days off. So they're still trying to take on this toxic behaviour as a problem to solve themselves. I've got many more sad-making stats, Al, but thoughts?
Al ElliottLe, well, I've not really got thoughts because this is definitely your area, but because you— if you do one thing, you train your managers. But do you think this is down to the fact that, I don't know, that people aren't being trained, or people are being promoted too early, or maybe there's no filtering to stop bad people from— or not bad people, but people with bad traits from becoming bosses? What, what do you think?
Leanne ElliottYeah, all the above, I think, isn't it? We know the majority of people aren't trained before their first management job. I think the latest data from, from CMI suggests that's like 80% plus.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah. And then, you know, yeah, we don't promote for the right things. We promote great ICs and not great managers or management potentials. Individual contributors.
Al ElliottOh, okay. Yep.
Leanne ElliottRather than people with management potential. And there's also wider pressures as well, which, which the article did, did kind of hint at. So 71% of workers say current economic conditions are increasing stress at work. Managers are going to be feeling that stress as well. 44% said that their company is investing more in AI than developing people managers. So there's just not that urgency from organizations either. So I don't think this is necessarily pointing blame at managers being toxic. It isn't necessarily a character flaw. It's more that it's a failure of investing in their development or even their initial promotion and kind of assessing that potential in the first place. So, I think this is a massive opportunity to invest in managers because we know they have the single biggest impact on employee performance, productivity, wellbeing, huge impacts on profitability. So, now is the time to, yeah, if you do one thing, train your managers. And I've been thinking, we say that a lot and don't really say a lot on how people should train their managers. So we are in the process of launching an accredited management course with some beautiful colleagues of ours. It's still, well, it's actually, it's fairly far along in terms of its development, but we are launching at some point in the next 6 weeks. So if you want a little sneak peek on what that looks like, drop me an email, leanne@oblonghq.com.
Al ElliottLovely, lovely. If you have your own article you'd like us to talk about, I know Sally, you've sent me something which I'll talk about next week. If you've got your own article you want me to talk about or Leanne to talk about, just send us an email. There's links in the show notes. If you do want to learn more about that product that Leanne was talking about, just check the show notes. There's a way to get in touch there. And I think it is time for a very short break. And then after the break, we're going to go into our truth or lie where we find out whether something is true or lie. And I'm really, really looking forward to this week because I flipping love dogs. And also, we've got our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. I'll see you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok followers. videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make beer taste better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Okay, welcome back to Truth or Lie. It's that time of the week where we take a popular workplace idea and ask if the research actually backs it up. Now, Leanne is actually back in the seat this week. I know you've had a couple of weeks off this segment, and currently as we're talking, it is the 5th of May, Danny Wareham's birthday. Happy birthday, Danny.
Leanne ElliottHappy birthday, Danny.
Al ElliottAnd I don't, I don't just know that. He mentioned it on LinkedIn the other day, so I'm not weird. And it's also, May is Mental Health Awareness Month. So the Truth or Lie over the next few weeks are going to have this sort of mental health awareness flavour to it. We're starting with something that is fluffy in a way that doesn't make Leanne cry. It's dogs. Leanne, Leanne, is it called Bring Your Dog to Work Day? Is that, is that what it's called?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYep. So apparently that happens all around the world. It's built on the idea that employees bring their dogs into the office and that is good for wellbeing. It was created by Pet Sitters International in 1999, originally to celebrate dogs as companions and also to encourage adoptions from dog shelters. What started with around 300 businesses has since grown into a global event. But is it actually good for employee wellbeing? Well, we have dogs, Leanne, and obviously it's very good for getting us outside. Also, if you're feeling a bit down, a dog can— a dog on your lap can sometimes make you feel a little bit better. It's really no surprise that workplaces are trying to do this, Leanne, but what is the research behind it? Do dogs support positive mental health? And is Bring Your Dog to Work Day a good idea?
Leanne ElliottThis is a lovely one, isn't it? It's been a really nice one. To research, and there's always just a few little kind of, kind of things to be aware of. So, when researchers talk about employee wellbeing, they're not just asking how happy people are. They're also looking at things like how stressed they feel, how energised they are, how absorbed they are. That's what we call work engagement, which essentially, really simple terms, is the opposite psychological state of burnout. So, yeah. That's a really good thing to measure. And they also look at things like psychological wellbeing and a lack of, or absence of anxiety and depression. So the studies we're looking at today measure these things, and they do measure them in different ways. So some use self-reported surveys, that's where employees rate their own experience. Others use measures like physical measures, cortisol, hormones, that type of thing. And so where that matters, I will kind of tell you what type of evidence we're looking at. And in terms of bringing your dog to work day, some studies, there's not really studies that look at this very specifically. But studies do look at things like dedicated office dogs. They look at where employees are allowed to bring their dogs in occasionally or on rotating visits. And they also look at broader pet-friendly policies. So things like pet bereavement or subsidised vet care. So again, I'll flag these as we go through, but just wanted to give you some context there, Al. So you ready for the 4?
Al ElliottYeah, I love that we define everything before we even go in. That's a proper psychologist way of doing it.
Leanne ElliottWell, it's important, isn't it? We need to know what we're talking about.
Al ElliottOkay. For dogs at work being good for employee wellbeing.
Leanne ElliottOkay, so there was a 2024 study or review of studies from Gardner. 31 studies looked at pets in the workplace and found general support for the idea that pets reduce stress at work. So one frequently cited study within the review found that dog owners who had their dogs with them didn't see their stress increase across the day. So stable, while those who didn't have their dogs with them did, which does suggest that having your dog nearby acts as a bit of a buffer against daily workplace pressure.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo then we have a 2019 study by Hall and Mills. They looked at 749 dog-owning employees and split them into 3 groups. So they had those who never brought their dog to work, those who sometimes did, and those who regularly did. So the group that brought their dogs in most often scored significantly higher on all 3 components of work engagement. So they were high on energy, higher on dedication and absorption. So that's when you're into that state of flow. So they're all significantly higher than the group that never brought their dog in.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottThey also reported stronger workplace friendships and were significantly less likely to say they were thinking about leaving. So, you know, lower intentions to quit. The study also found that owners of smaller dogs, those under 5 kilos, so teeny tiny, reported higher engagement and quality of life than owners of larger dogs. Which is interesting.
Al ElliottProbably got more shoes untouched as well.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think research is suggesting that, that it might just relate to practicalities of a smaller dog in the office is just easier to manage.
Al ElliottYeah, makes sense.
Leanne ElliottAnd less stress. Another recent study from 2024 surveyed 379 pet-owning employees and found that pet-friendly practices were positively linked to both work engagement and wellbeing. So basically, in terms of these stats, There's about 44% variance in engagement scores explained by differences in pet-friendly practices alone, which basically means if you're a dog owner and you work for an organisation with dog-friendly practices, it's gonna— about 44% of your engagement is gonna come down to that in terms of your reason for wanting to be with this organisation.
Al ElliottOh, wow.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, it's also not that surprising, is it? Because you kind of values matching and lifestyle matching. But yeah, it makes sense. And for wellbeing, that figure was 27%. So that's pretty high again.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThe research basically identified 2 reasons, because it's fulfilling basic human needs. So feeling competent at your work and feeling a sense of connection with people around you. So that's quite a nice little study. Then 2022 looked— a study looked at how pet-friendly practices affect wellbeing through A slightly different lens. So specifically whether they make employees feel more connected to and proud of their organisation and whether that in turn improves how they feel about their lives. So they looked at, this is very niche, they looked at 208 Portuguese pet-owning employees.
Al ElliottHang on. Are these people who own pets who are from Portugal?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOr people who own, people who own, hang on.
Leanne ElliottAre these Portuguese pets?
Al ElliottPortuguese pets like the Portuguese waterhound? No.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne Elliott208 people from Portugal. They did show that the sense of organisational belonging explained 11% of the variation in life satisfaction between employees and 5% of the variation in psychological wellbeing, which is— it might sound modest, but in workplace research, a single policy explaining 5 to 11% of how somebody engages in their work or how satisfied they are with their life is pretty, pretty noticeable. Another study from 2025 interviewed staff in an American vet college. with a Dogs at Work programme that had been running since 1999. So a longstanding programme.
Al ElliottJust need to say for our American visitors, that's American Veterinary College. So like the vets who look after animals rather than veterans, because I think they use the word vets.
Leanne ElliottOh, sorry. Yeah. Okay. 4 themes came across in this. So dogs as a source of emotional support, dogs as a prompt for micro-breaks, particularly after stressful events, Dogs as social catalysts made it easier to connect with colleagues, and dogs as something that helped blur the hard line between work and the rest of life. People found it restorative.
Al ElliottThat's nice. And I can totally see that you've got much more of a social office if the dog's just wandering past you and you're like, oh, hello, hello, Charlie, how are you doing?
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's an icebreaker, isn't it? And then finally, we have a A systematic review that looked at 116 peer-reviewed studies published between 1983 and 2024. This was published in 2025. And across that body of research, stronger bonds with pets were consistently linked to better general wellbeing and life satisfaction, particularly in children and adolescents, where the evidence was notably one-directional. So not a single study in that age group found that strong pet attachment was associated with worse mental health. So if you've got kids or adolescents, getting a family dog is probably a really good idea. And that broader relationship between people and their pets is the entire foundation on which this case for bringing dogs to work is built.
Al ElliottBeautiful. So that's the for. Yeah. I can't see how you've gotten against. Mind you, I'm a dog person, but I'd imagine that there's people who aren't dog people and that's gonna be problematic. Let's find out, Leanne. What's the case?
Leanne ElliottLet's see. So the case against isn't that dogs at work are harmful. It's that the evidence for having them there as a very good thing for employee health and wellbeing might not be kind of as strong—
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAs we're led to believe. So the review I was telling you about from 2024, the same one that found the general support for stress reduction in, in having pets at work, was equally clear that most of that evidence relies on self-reported Surveys rather than objective measures like cortisol testing, for example. 81% of the studies they looked at use survey methods. Few use any kind of validated psychological tool, so it's basically opinion. And there were no studies that tracked what actually happened when an organisation introduced a pet-friendly policy, like before and after, which is the kind of evidence we'd really want before drawing any strong conclusions. So they basically concluded that the evidence wasn't very strong across. The studies that they looked at. We had another systematic review from 2025. We talked about 116 studies. What we need to think about as well is while stronger pet attachment was linked to better general wellbeing, the picture did change when researchers looked at clinical symptoms rather than general feelings. So 22 studies found that higher pet attachment was associated with worse mental health outcomes. So high distress, high anxiety, lower quality of life. And 33 studies found no relationship at all. So the review's conclusion was basically that, that a strong bond with a pet isn't guaranteed in terms of predicting better mental health if it's for adults already experiencing difficulties, because that high attachment might reflect a coping mechanism rather than a cause of wellbeing. And of course, if and when something happens to that pet, That's gonna have a significant impact on, on that person's mental health. There's also a significant question around samples here. So the, the Halls and Mills study that I mentioned was 90% female sample. The Portugal one was 95% female. The veterinary college only surveyed dog owners already participating in the programmes. They'd already kind of selected in. So the perspective of colleagues who chose not to take part were just completely absent. So in terms of the evidence base itself, it's a very skewed positive sample profile.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottIn terms of negative experiences, they are actually documented. So Foreman and colleagues in the 2017 review noted that between 15% and 30% of people have allergies to dogs or cats. So a substantial of people would be very affected negatively from a dog-friendly office. The same review flagged that dogs and their accessories can be a genuine safety hazard, Al.
Al ElliottI suppose you trip over a little dog or—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI mean, it's estimated that, that, yeah, pets have caused 86,000 fall-related injuries in the United States.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottI know, it's a lot, isn't it?
Al ElliottThat's a lot more than you think.
Leanne ElliottIt's a lot more.
Al ElliottAlthough I wish we had some stats to say, right, okay, this is the number of injuries related to paperclips or to staplers or something. So we get an idea whether this is actually a lot or just—
Leanne ElliottYeah, true that. I mean, it's still a lot, isn't it? 86,000 people getting hurt. So yeah, I mean, beyond the, you know, that's not good for people, there's legal considerations to that as well. And I did come across another article from Dr. John Millenier, who's an organisational change expert. And he highlighted a risk that the studies also highlighted, that introducing dogs into an office can create an us-and-them dynamic. So splitting the workforce between those who bring pets and those who don't or can't or wouldn't want them there. And that division, he argued, could actually undermine that sense of community these pet-friendly policies are meant to build. And then if we go back to Gardner's review, they also looked directly at productivity. Which is an important consideration because I'm sure there's lots of people listening that might think, well, that all sounds nice, but is anyone actually gonna get any work done if they bring their dog into the office? And it turns out it doesn't really matter. So 20% of respondents felt that dogs harmed productivity, 20% felt that it helped, and 60% reported no difference either way. So, but I think, I feel like 20% cancels each other out.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo it's kind of same, same.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottAnd finally, neither of kind of the, the big reviews were able to conduct a meta-analysis, which is when we take really like strong statistical tests to a set of data, because there isn't enough of them. They didn't reach that kind of critical sample number in terms of studies looking at specific things. There's too few studies or there's too much variation between how they measured the outcomes. So it means that the field really can't tell us yet with any confidence what the overall effect of bringing your dog to work actually is. So, bring your dog to work day, truth or lie, is it good for mental health? For the first time on this show, Al, I dunno. The research doesn't know.
Al ElliottOh no.
Leanne ElliottI know the studies that exist suggest real benefits, absolutely, for some people in workplaces, but they're too small, they're too narrow, they're too inconsistent. For us to say with any confidence that it's good for employee wellbeing across the board. In terms of mental health support in general for people, yes, dogs can be very good in terms of mental health, so long as, as we mentioned, you don't have— you're coming from a fairly balanced place of mental health to begin with. So if you are a business owner or leader and you're thinking about introducing a dog-friendly policy, yeah, the benefits do show up in workplaces, and they tend to, to be even more impactful in organisations that already have things like flexibility and trust and open communication. So it might be worth considering maybe joining with Bring Your Dog to Work Day as an annual thing and just test it, see how it goes. I think it's sometime in, in June. I want to say it's like the week after Father's Day or something, the 20-something of June.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottMaybe try it out. But in terms of truth or lie, I don't know.
Al ElliottIt's a try. A looth.
Leanne ElliottIt's a looth.
Al ElliottIt's a looth. Interesting. I'm— it's difficult, isn't it? Because we're obviously very dog people. And so if we went to an office, I'd probably— if I had to go and get a job, I'd probably be more likely to take a worse job where it's got a dog in the office, or we could bring one of our dogs in, than a better job, but they wouldn't allow any dogs in, I think. I think. I don't know.
Leanne ElliottMaybe I wouldn't. It depends on the day because sometimes I would Go into an office just to get away from the dogs, to be honest.
Al ElliottWell, that's the other thing, isn't it? If you've got an office full of dogs, you're gonna have— there's gonna be so much distraction. I would— I certainly would be distracted if we brought any— either one of our dogs in. I'd be very, very distracted because I'd be like, what are they doing? What are they up to? Especially the older one, he's just a grumpy old man these days.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think that's it as well. It's a stress on you and also colleagues that do have allergies or phobias or just simply no interest in dogs.
Al ElliottAnd isn't that— and also I think there's like a religious or cultural element of it as well. So yeah, it's not, it's not popular. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo you want to probably ask people how they feel about it first before you do it.
Al ElliottYeah. I mean, I feel sorry for those people who keep, who keep bees. Why can't, why can't there be a bring your bees to work day?
Leanne ElliottThank you.
Al ElliottAnyway, thank you very much, honey. Appreciate that. See, see my little segue there? No, it's doing away. Oh dear. See her face fuming. She is. Thank you so much for that, love. We have another one of those next week. I believe we've got someone else doing it next week, or is it you again? We'll find out.
Leanne ElliottWe'll find out.
Al ElliottWe'll find out together. Okay, so it's time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Um, we have 3 questions. I'm gonna basically put them to Leanne as I just described, and she's gonna tell us exactly what— I'll tell this person exactly what to do. Loads to learn here. Always like these. Okay, so the first one, are we doing more harm by asking and not acting? So this person's saying, it says, we regularly survey our people and ask for feedback. But if I'm honest, we don't always act on what comes back. Hello, Christian. We've been talking about this this week. It made me wonder whether it's actually worse—
Leanne ElliottConfidential conversation or?
Al ElliottWell, interesting. No, it wasn't anything to do with that. It was, it was just generally speaking. Sorry, Christian, if I shouldn't have said that. It's made me wonder whether that's actually worse than not asking at all. Are we building trust by listening or damaging it by not following through? Lee, I imagine you've got some thoughts on this.
Leanne ElliottYou are damaging it by not following through.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottYeah. If you don't have any intention or you're not sure how to act on feedback, it's better not to ask because particularly if it's your first time doing it, opening yourself up to be open to employee feedback and consultation is gonna give you a natural boost in their morale, 'cause they're gonna feel that, that sense of recognition that they're cared about and their voice matters. And, and maybe even the little baby steps towards psychological safety. And then when nothing is done, that's, That dip is really quite crushing. So it's— and also it gives the impression that you don't care and that you asked and you're not interested in what they have to say. So yeah, if you regularly survey your people and don't act on it, then I'd maybe stop surveying your people. And that's not to say that you have to, you have to do everything they say. It's more like, you said this, these are the things we can do something about, these are things we're changing, these are things we can't right now, or not exactly where you wanted, but this is what we can look at.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThese are the things we're investigating over the next 6 months to see if there's something else that we can do, and that's going to require further consultation with you in terms of listening events or focus groups and that type of thing. I think that the trap that a lot of people get into, organisations get into, is, as you were saying, Al, the other day, that they don't often work with providers that will give them the insights they need in terms of action points. They'll give them the insights of the results of what people have said, But not tell them what to do next. So, if you are in that situation and you've got that data, it's not wasted data. Go and find, you know, your— an org psych in your area. Go and talk to somebody like Christian who can do this type of thing remotely, or me. There's things that you can do to get more of a kind of a roadmap together. And there's very simple things that you'll be able to act on very quickly to have even that bigger boost in morale.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut you have to really now think about how you're going to start to act on that feedback. That might mean changing your survey if it's really not giving you the insights that you need. But yeah, very succinctly, are you damaging it by not following it through?
Al ElliottWhen we had Bill Yost on, which was episode 283, we talked about engagement surveys. He does engagement surveys. He did do it for Google, the massive Googlegeist, if you've ever heard of that. I'm sure you have. And he now works for Netflix doing engagement surveys. And we talked about this idea of having a bank account of morale or goodwill. And when you ask someone to take a survey, you're withdrawing from that account. And then when you take the results and do something about it, you're depositing in that account. And so I think what the person who's written this in, what it sounds like you're doing is you're essentially almost getting overdrawn on that account because you've withdrawn from it so many times by asking so many different types of questions. something, so many different surveys that you've got, you've put nothing back in it. And the easiest way to put something back in it is to go, we heard you, we've done this. Is life better? And they'll go, yes, which is great. Leigh, is that too simplistic?
Leanne ElliottNo, love it. Beautiful.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Okay. Onto question number 2. Thank you, Leigh. Onto question number 2. Why isn't anyone using our wellbeing benefits? We offer a range of wellbeing benefits like support resources, initiatives, and time off, but hardly anybody actually uses them. It feels like on paper we're doing the right things, but in reality, uptake is very low. So I'm wondering what we're missing. Why do so many wellbeing initiatives that we're trying fail to land with our employees?
Leanne ElliottThere's 3 main things to look at here. So first of all, I'd do a little audit of your wellbeing initiatives and make sure they're fit for purpose in terms of it's what people were asking for. It can make a genuine difference to the, the life and health and wellbeing of your employees. Benchmarking against, you know, other companies in your industry of a similar size. Ask your people what they think about the wellbeing initiatives is probably a really great place to start in terms of that audit and really just understand if you've got the right wellbeing initiatives in place to begin with. The second trouble that most organisations have with this is they have lots of fancy wellbeing initiatives and don't give people the time nor energy to access them. Such as their, you know, mental health days, taking time off, and they never get approved because everyone's workloads are too high. If fundamentally the organisation and how work is designed is a drain on your people, and that's going to be things like high workloads, not enough resources, um, you know, people missing from the team you haven't hired back in, lack of skills and training and development for people to do those roles, role clarity around who should be doing what, if that is all causing stress on—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottthe, the workforce, then any kind of wellbeing benefit ain't gonna do much. It's a bit like putting a plaster on a broken leg. It's not to say that a plaster isn't effective in its rightful use, but on a broken leg, it ain't gonna do anything apart from probably cause some resentment. And finally, I'd say, you know, role modelling is a really great thing here. So, if the work design is all, is all good and the wellbeing benefits are all aligned with people want, Mm-hmm. with what people want, you need managers and leaders to role model them. You know, talking about how you took a mental health day, or talking about how you're using the, the cashback initiatives, or the gym memberships, or the therapy sessions, or the telehealthcare. You know, actually having conversations like that. And depending on how big you are, you can funnel that through your HR and comms department in terms of good news stories, as examples, as guides, you could do lunch and learns about different wellbeing benefits. That's when really you get to role model. I think it's when we were talking to Karen from Microsoft about this.
Al ElliottI was just thinking that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, that's weird. Go on then.
Al ElliottI think she said that she actually, she actually invites people to these events and then they have to opt out rather than opt in. Is that what you're gonna say?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. And her conclusion is really, you don't, You don't do more when it comes to wellbeing. You often don't have to. It's just about doing better in terms of engaging people in them. So yeah, but it's always interesting. Do you remember a few weeks ago we were talking about Slate, who brought in the cleaning stipend?
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottFor people. So instead of gym memberships, people could opt into having—
Al ElliottThe house cleaned.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly, which I thought was brilliant. A good example of kind of what people need in terms of being able to to rest and recover from work. So yeah, there you go. They're my thoughts.
Al ElliottYeah. And you know, my thoughts were going to be, it was about Karen Sanctor from Microsoft. That's what I was about to say. So you took the words out of my mouth. I think, I mean, this segment would be dead if people did this, but it does seem a lot of times that the answer to this is, well, go and ask the people. Don't ask us, ask them. But obviously you need to know how to do that. And also don't do that because then, as I say, this segment would be dead. Leanne, are you ready for question number 3?
Leanne ElliottI am.
Al ElliottYes. So if people keep leaving, is it really a hiring problem? So this person says, we put a lot of effort into hiring and feel like we bring in good people, but a pattern's emerging where they leave in the first 12 months. It's making me question whether this is a recruitment issue or something that's actually happening once they're inside the business. Leanne, how would you tell the difference?
Leanne ElliottYou tell the difference by how, how well that person performs in the job in that first 12 months. If they're hitting a really nice point of performance and productivity by probably month 3 to 4, which is usually how long it takes for somebody to get up and running, then your hiring process is probably good. Yeah, well done. A great hiring process is designed to predict future job performance. And it sounds that, you know, if that's the case and that's what you're doing, then it's not hiring. So, that means it's engagement or it means it's culture.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo, employee engagement is a slightly simpler problem to solve in that you're looking at the psychosocial risk factors in your environment. And that's things we talk about all the time. So, do people have meaningful work? How are the relationships within an organisation? How is change managed? Do people have clarity over their role? Do they have the training that they need and the skills to do their job? That's all stuff that can be measured pretty simply, either through an employee engagement survey like the RX7 that we offer at Oblong, or through the HSE Management Standards Survey, which is a free tool. And that'll give you an idea of where the hotspots are within your organisation, the thought being that basically, If you, if your psychosocial risk factors are a bit low, then that is increasing stress in the organisation and people will disengage and leave. That might be why you're seeing people leave within the first 12 months. Culture is a slightly trickier problem, and that's going to be if you hit a point, a certain point of growth where you've got a kind of a bit of an us and them situation happening. So, we see this typically in scale-ups, mature startups where they hit that magic number around 13 employees. And you start to— that number then starts to mean that people separate into groups and cliques start. And typically, anyone new coming in, there's a little bit of resistance because people are very proud and protective of the culture that they've helped to build. And as we talk about all the time on the show, often the culture that got you here ain't going to be the one that gets you there. So, that needs digging into and understanding what's happening, and if there is any incivil behaviours within the organisation that is pushing these people to leave. So, it's not necessarily your hiring. The key and the tell is how people are performing in the role in those first 6 months. And if they're doing well, then yeah, it sounds like your hiring strategy is good. I guess the only other thing could be is if you're misleading them in terms of the job that they're being recruited into, or the organisation in terms of how stable that is. So, if you are kind of catfishing them into it, then yeah, people might leave as well.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat could be the only flaw in your hiring, hiring process that isn't related to recruiting in the skills that you need. Um, but yeah, it could be engagement, it could be culture. It requires investigation.
Al ElliottExcellent. Excellent. And if you are interested in onboarding or recruitment, then this Thursday we've got Rachel Harris, who is, uh, the, the social accountant, I suppose I've got in my head. Basically, she's an amazing woman who, with her husband, has built up a huge accountancy practice in the UK. And she recruits almost exclusively through social media. So she talks about, uh, the first month on the role. She talks about having superfans. Um, it's a really interesting founder story, but also a great idea about how to— what she calls employee-generated content. You might have heard of UGC, user-generated content. This is employee-generated content and how that helps to drive her business. Leigh, is there anything to add before we let these lovely people go?
Leanne ElliottNope, that's all. Just the usual. Head over to LinkedIn to, uh, continue the conversation. Keep an eye on the LinkedIn Lives we've got scheduled. Loads of links in the show notes to get in touch with the show, so do it. That'd be nice.
Al ElliottYes, have a lovely day, especially you, Dani, and we will speak to everyone very soon. That's because it's Dani's birthday, remember that? Yeah, we'll speak to you all soon. Bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottBye.