Episode 301 · 14 May 2026 · 46:24
Are you too smart to succeed in business? With Dr Rosenna Bakari
Featuring Rosenna Bakari
Are you too smart to succeed in business? With Dr Rosenna Bakari
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The Cornell prodigy who hit a wall
interview#gifted#burnout#psychology
Introducing Dr. Rosenna Bakari
From academia to entrepreneurship — the invisible struggle
interview#academia#entrepreneurship#struggle
"How smart do I need to be to survive?"
interview#intelligence#survival#self-doubt
When being brilliant stops working
interview#burnout#failure#career-change
The gifted label and its cost
interview#gifted-label#cost#identity
The "Right vs. Solved" dilemma
The 200-Call Challenge
interview#sales#challenge#book-marketing
Advice for aspiring founders
interview#advice#founders#starting-business
The hyper ego explained
interview#ego#reddit#criticism
Information vs. intuition
Who are the real experts?
interview#experts#books#entrepreneurship
Books that actually help entrepreneurs
interview#books#entrepreneurs#academia
How much passion is enough?
interview#passion#business#motivation
Inside Seven Exits
interview#book#seven-exits#launch
Warning signs you'll hate entrepreneurship
The emotional cost of unlearning being right
Top 3 takeaways
interview#takeaways#summary#smart-people
Show notes
Are You Too Smart to Succeed in Business? — with Dr. Rosenna Bakari
Guest: Dr. Rosenna Bakari — psychologist, empowerment expert, and author of Seven Exits.
She went to Cornell at 17. She earned her PhD. She built a lauded career in academia. Then she tried to become an entrepreneur — and hit a brick wall.
Dr. Rosenna Bakari joins Al and Leanne to unpack a uncomfortable truth for high achievers: the very skills that make you "right" in a classroom — intellect, working alone, academic rigor — can be the primary barriers to success in the real world.
They dig into Rosenna's "hyper ego" concept (the first of her Seven Exits), the mentor question that changed her life — "Do you want to be right, or do you want to solve the problem?" — and why shifting from a high regard for knowledge to a focus on relationships is the essential "knob" to turn for business growth.
Top 3 Takeaways
Your intelligence is a tool, not a passport. It can get you in the door, but it won't keep the door open. At some point, you have to change how you show up.
Check your ego before you blame the market. When a project fails, the first question shouldn't be about the economy — it should be: "How am I getting in my own way?"
The "Respect vs. Like" reality. If you believe it doesn't matter if people like you as long as they respect you, entrepreneurship might not be for you. Business moves at the speed of relationships.
More From Dr. Rosenna Bakari
- Website: rosennabakari.com
- Book, Seven Exits: transformation.sevenexits.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rosenna-bakari-ph-d-b3120194
- Instagram: @sevenexits_rosennabakari
- TikTok: @dr._bakari_empowerment
- YouTube: @rosennabakari5535
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThere's a woman who went to Cornell at 17 years old and got her PhD. She became a psychologist. She built a career that earned her nothing but praise her entire life. Then she decided to start a business and couldn't quite get it off the ground.
Leanne ElliottSo she took a leadership course, aced every exercise, and at the end, the coach sat her down and said something that made her cry.
Rosenna BakariI took this leadership class and, uh, and I approached the leadership class very intellectually. And so then they said that, you know, they dropped the bomb, like, They said, you've done some amazing things. You've gotten here based on who you are, and you could stop here, and people would continue to give you accolades. However, you cannot get to where you say you want to go the same way that you got here. And tears fell. Like, it doesn't matter how smart you are anymore. Like, that's just not going to— that's not the train that you need to take. And I just cried because I felt like she put me in this hole where I felt like I was gonna have to restart something.
Al ElliottOur guest today is Dr. Rosenna Bakari. She's a psychologist, an author, and an empowerment expert, and her argument is uncomfortable. The skills that made you exceptional in academia— being right, working alone, winning on intellect— are almost perfectly designed to make you fail in business.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner, and we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Leanne ElliottToday we're asking, are you too smart to succeed? Rosenna has spent years studying what holds brilliant people back, and it turns out the answer isn't laziness, bad luck, or the wrong market. It's ego, specifically what she calls hyper-ego, and she's got 7 ways to get out of it.
Al ElliottAfter this short break, we'll find out why Rosenna cried in that leadership class, why passion and purpose might just be as dangerous as intelligence, and the question her mentor has been asking her for 20 years. Do you wanna be right or do you wanna solve this problem?
Leanne ElliottWe'll see you in a sec.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets. Which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Rosenna BakariI'm Dr. Rosenna Bakari, and I am an empowerment expert. I am a consultant and author and support people in leaving where they are to get where they want to go. And I'm excited to have this, this topic because the emphasis is on leaving where you are to get where you want to go. A lot of times people focus on the where you want to go. I focus on leaving where you are.
Al ElliottYou went from academia into entrepreneurship, and I'd imagine, and you're probably gonna be too modest to say this, but from your bio, you looked like you were a pretty smart woman and you did a lot. You did, had some great successes in academia, but then you went to entrepreneurship. So is that how you discovered what the problem was with leaving stuff behind?
Rosenna BakariI absolutely did in pieces of it. Uh, and I've, I've had my share of, uh, childhood trauma that I've had to, uh, work through too. So I'll, let me, let me take a moment and tell you that story so we have a full context, right? So I've overcome childhood trauma from being told I was mildly retarded at age 7 following a seizure, to being a survivor of childhood adverse experiences, to being told I was gifted a year, just a year after being told I was mildly retarded. And so it has taken a lot of me substituting, I'll say, intellect for healing for a long time, right? So it's like, oh, I'm smart. And then people start telling you you're smart. Oh, I'm smart. I went to Cornell University at age 17, right? So I learned this thing that I could use to get me to the next phase, to the next step. Like, oh, just be smart. Just be smart. And people will give you things. They'll tell you things. They'll put you in places. But I never fully healed from everything, right? I'm just—
Al ElliottYeah.
Rosenna BakariBut I'm smart, so I can get in a lot of doors. And so I'm always thinking about, how smart do I need to be to get in the next door? That just becomes a reasonable question for me. How smart do I need to be to get in the next door? And so when I got to the door of entrepreneurship, and now I'm a psychologist, right? I'm a psychologist. I have all this background, all this experience, but the door is not opening. I'm shoving on the door. with my intellect and it's not opening. And so I took this leadership class and I approached the leadership class very intellectually, did all the statements, did everything they told me to. I was acing it, right, in my mind. And at the end of the leadership class, and they're looking over like where you say you want to be and what you're doing now, they did really exactly what I'm practicing with other people now. They looked and they said, oh, But here's how you scored on this assessment. You said that you like being alone, right? Oh, you said that you work well alone. You said like there were all these. And I'm like, yeah, I know. And so what is the— and so then they said that, you know, they dropped the bomb like this. You've done some amazing things. You've gotten here based on who you are and you could stop here and people would continue to give you accolades. However, You cannot get to where you say you want to go the same way that you got here. And tears fell. And tears fell because, one, I couldn't believe that someone was talking to someone like that as smart as me.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Rosenna BakariBecause in your mind, you're like, wait, don't you know how smart I am? And they're like, we don't. And then literally, it's like, we don't. It's not brains that you need anymore. It doesn't matter how smart you are anymore. Like, that's just not gonna— that's not the train that you need to take. You have to learn how to collaborate. You have to learn how to do outreach. You have to learn how to network. You have to learn how to ask people for what you want. And you have to figure out what it is that people want, not what it is that you want to give them. I understood nothing of what she was saying. Right. I understood. And I just cried because I felt like she put me in this hole where I felt like I was going to have to restart something. Now, when you've been through what I've been through and someone tells you to restart, that feels overwhelming because it brings to mind like, wait, but what I did to get here is really, first of all, a facade.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Rosenna BakariLike, this is the mask that I put on to get into the world. And now You're asking me to take the mask off and do something different. And that felt so heavy for me. So absolutely. And that's what she was having me do. Like, oh, wait, we had to get out of hyper ego. These are my terms now. That's not what she said. But she was asking me, oh, we had to get out of hyper ego. Oh, we had to let go of some more of this silence and secrecy. Oh, we have to let go of the emotional dependency. And so that was absolutely the big— probably the beginning of reframing Empowerment versus intellect.
Al ElliottYou just mentioned there, I think the phrasing was, I had all these accolades. I was, people thought I was brilliant. And then you were like, now I want to take a different direction. Why didn't you just stay where you were? Because it sounded like you were, you were up, you were lauded back then. You were the, you were the queen.
Rosenna BakariIt wasn't working for me. It worked until it didn't work. Right. And so then once I first started, I started a nonprofit, and that went well to some degree, but it didn't go the way that I wanted it to. Eventually, I went into for-profit work, but I wanted to create something on a mass level, right? Not gigantic, but I wanted to create a business. I wanted to leave a legacy. I wanted to really share my ideas with the world, not just a few people in my community, but the world. So I really wanted to get into entrepreneurship or build a business. And I just didn't— I didn't know that you couldn't do that on intellect alone. I've always felt like I've had different ideas. I've had to in order to overcome some of the stuff that I've had to overcome. And so I want those ideas to be out in the world. Like, I love the idea of 7 exits, right? I love looking at the world differently. In ways that I've had to do. And I see many, many other people in need of similar truths about letting go of what has served you. That's so difficult. And so I wanted to put ideas into the world. But no, but you first have to convince people to listen and that you have ideas worth sharing. And I've seen it before. I've seen it even in my own family with some of my siblings who have these fantastic ideas. And don't know how to enter into a world where they can share them. And so I didn't want to be that person who had all this knowledge and awareness and thought processing, and it just goes to the grave with me unexplored. And so I was at— and keep in mind too, now I'm older, right? My kids are grown. I'm trying to figure out how to have a different impact in the world. So I've always wanted to have an impact, and it just becomes limited when you don't grow internally.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Rosenna BakariThat impact just stays in a much smaller space than what I was willing to stay in. So I also saw entrepreneurship as part of my own continuation of my own healing journey. Like, are you really ready to live outside of yourself, right? Create something that you'll be responsible for putting into the world and people will see it as yours and you're willing to own it. Because I spent a lot of my life Hiding in the books.
Al ElliottHiding in the books. Tell me more.
Rosenna BakariSo, being behind, like, I've spent a number of years, I'm married, been married for 35 years. My husband is a wonderful human being that I've shared my life with. And so, it was easy for me to follow him and follow his career. One of the reasons we moved so much and even traveled so much. And so it was easy for me to follow his career and support him and share with, okay, so he'd come up with this idea. And then I'm like, oh, if it's, oh, can we read about it? Can we do this? Can we do that? And then we'd execute it. And so here was the growth part for me. The growth part is that, and this may be an important message for many. many wives to hear because it, in some ways, it seemed like I was just sort of this martyr, right? Like helping everybody else. But that's why I say in my own healing journey, what I realized is that I wasn't just helping every— everyone else, I was keeping myself safe, right? Like, you go and I'll just stay back here. No one can criticize me here. No one can find me here. And so when I realized that pattern, Leaving behind what no longer serves you, right? When I realized that, oh, this is not just about me being a supportive wife, this is about me being complacent. This is about me continuing to live in silence and secrecy because if I'm back here, no one will ask me questions. There's no vulnerability here. I just use what I have and I'm good, right? And so that was a big piece of it for me. So then when you—
Al ElliottRight.
Rosenna BakariWhen I open up that book and say, okay, now I'm gonna live outside of the book. That was a big learning lesson for me.
Al ElliottDo you think that if you hadn't been described as gifted, if you hadn't, you know, got your MSc at 22, your PhD at probably 23, if you hadn't done all these amazing things, then your life would have taken a different direction, perhaps into entrepreneurship? Naturally? What, what do you think, what do you think would've happened if you hadn't had these?
Rosenna BakariThat's tough because I didn't have a lot of access to mentors. Another thing that made this very difficult, right? So I was, my mother was a mental health worker. She did not have degrees. And so it's, it was natural for me to say, oh, that's what my mom does. She loves it. And okay, 'cause I really didn't have this. I remember like I have, Some childhood trauma I'm dealing with. I have some poverty that I'm dealing with. So I'm not a big dreamer. I'm living in survival mode for most of my life. So one of the things that I've learned about people who live in survival mode is that dreaming is not high on our priority list. Safety is, right? And so in my mind, it was like, what makes you feel safe? Oh, being a partner who's going to take charge and have these dreams for you and you can support that. And so it's difficult for me to imagine what life looks like growing up when you're not just trying to be safe. I still don't know that. I don't know that question can be answered. I know it from an academic standpoint. I don't know it from a personal standpoint. And I'm the youngest of 7, and I am the only one in my family who has gotten this far in their education and has executed entrepreneurship and sort of the golden child of the family. And so I've done that though because someone— people were always telling me that I needed to be here. Someone made me go to Cornell. Like, I wasn't even going to go. Like, someone said, wait a minute, do you know what this means? I'm like, no, I really don't know what it means. And so it was one of the high school counselors. And so people were always Placing me where they thought I belonged. And so it's very different when I'm now in my 50s going for entrepreneurship, and now no one is placing me there. Like, I have to figure it out on my own. And that's a whole different journey because I have the space, like you said, I have the space to fail and I have the support to succeed. So what are you going to do? I don't have to do this. My husband takes good care of me. I don't have to do this. And so it's really— it's been really, really difficult to stay motivated and say, why do you keep going? I keep going because I see it not just as how I can earn a living, but I see it as how I can continue to grow internally.
Al ElliottLet's talk about that transition then. So you've gone from being right and naturally being right in academia because you put the work in, because you read the books, because you understood going into entrepreneurship where a lot of people who've started companies are self-confessed, they will say they're dumb, but that helps them because the market is right, not you. It's like I always got this saying, say, be rich, not right. It's nothing about you being right. It's about the market. Tell me more about how that feels.
Rosenna BakariI absolutely agree 100%. Uh, and, and 'cause entrepreneur was not the first time I ran into this issue. The first time I ran into this issue was actually during my dissertation. And again, luckily I had a mentor because I was trying to fight with my, with my professors, and I had a mentor that said, do you want a PhD or do you want to be right? You know, and she's— and my mentor said to me very plainly, she said, I've seen this before. I've seen you smart people never leave here or never get it done because you stay arguing about what's right. She said, she said, I got through my PhD very easily because I simply did everything they told me to do because I wasn't in it for my ego.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Rosenna BakariAnd to figure out who was right. And once she told me that, I got it immediately. I got it. And then I went down the right path. So, it wasn't the first time that I heard it, but I didn't fully hear it, right? And this particular mentor stayed in my life, and that's been her message to me all along. Whenever I go to her, she's like, oh, you trying to be smart again? Are you trying to be right again? Or Or do you want to solve this problem? And that's one of my favorite questions to my clients now too, by the way. You want to be right or you want to solve this problem? And so when it came to the entrepreneurship stuff, trying to really get out of my own head and be in, like you said, in the market, that is just so difficult for me. I still struggle with this sometimes. I'm constantly revising, revising, revising, because it's not like you know it and then you see the whole picture. It's like, okay, I know this thing. Then you see a little bit of the picture and you fix that and you get that. Then you see a little bit more of the picture and you fix it. And I think people quit, the smart people quit, because it's mentally exhausting to constantly course correct. You know, we're used to taking the exam once and getting an A on it, and then, and then you've proved yourself. It just does not work like that with entrepreneurship. You are constantly, constantly, constantly revising and getting to know your client or potential client better and their needs better and all. And so the work doesn't stop. And unless you make the work that you're doing internal, Then you don't get where you're going. Like, it has to be about, oh, why did you miss this, Rosenna? Like, or what were you trying to do instead of this, Rosenna? You know, one of the marketing people that I work with, with one of the books that I had, had me call up 200 people from my phone. They asked me, how many contacts do you have in your phone? I said, over 200.
Al ElliottWow.
Rosenna BakariThey said, call up each one of them and tell them that you've just written this book and you want their support. What? Like, what? So that was huge. And I did it. And it's been one of the best experiences ever that I've had. Scary as heck. Scary as heck. Because for me, the scary part was, you know, that means I'm asking someone for something, right? They're like, yes, you're not asking, you're explaining what it is that you're doing. And if you can't speak about that from a humble position that you're asking for support, then it's kind of like you're not ready. You're still not ready, right? So that's what I mean. You do a little bit of it and it gets you this far, but it doesn't get you where you want to go. So you're always having to do a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more to get out of your own way when, you know, you just like, could I just read a book or something?
Al Elliott10 years before this, if someone asked you to do that, what would be going through your head? What's the feelings? What's the fear of lifting that phone and calling those people?
Rosenna BakariIt got easier because one of the things I learned about myself is that I had helped a lot of people. And so it got easier. I think out of those 200 people, there were 2 people that didn't want to talk to me. I honestly don't know why to this day. They were ready to hang up on me. I'm like, oh, I did something. I don't know what I did because most of these people I had not spoken to in 5 years. And I was still going back and saying, hey, I have this book coming out. This is what it's about. And when it comes out, I'd love for you to support it. Most people I had, I mean, I had some really great conversations. People were like, oh, absolutely. I remember when I was here and you told me this, or you spent this time with me. And so that was really good for me, right? It, that helped me a lot. Maybe 100 of those people, no, maybe 70 of those people actually bought the book, but the other ones were still happy to have the conversation with me. Right. And so, that was, that was huge for me. That gave me a lot of confidence in the end. But every day, I think I was, I was, I committed to calling like 20 people a day, however long that took, you know. So, it was over a period of time, uh, but that gave me a lot of, a lot of confidence to do what I was doing.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Rosenna BakariSeamless. Seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Rosenna BakariI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Rosenna BakariI'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in. So let's go back to someone who's listening, who wants to start a business and wants to be a founder, wants to get into entrepreneurship. They are insanely clever, right? Like you were. They're going to move into a world where there's no exams. And in fact, that's the best thing about the exam is that you can cheat on the exam and it's fine. Or if you don't like the exam, you go and do a different exam. So it's such an unstructured world, entrepreneurship. You're coming from quite a structured, you get A on this exam, you're a genius. What is it they have to leave behind?
Rosenna BakariI think what everybody, no matter where you fall on how you see yourself as, as, as smart in the world, everyone to be successful has to consider leaving behind their ego. What does it mean for you to hear no? Sometimes it's not about, I think I'm smart. Sometimes it's about, I'm just the best, and everybody's told me I'm the best. Maybe I was a sports person. Maybe I was the best at something, right? And you haven't been told no a whole lot in your life, right? Maybe you're the oldest child, and you're used to running things and telling people what to do and how it's going to be.
Al ElliottRight.
Rosenna BakariFor whatever reason, everybody has to check their ego in order to succeed and ask, how is my ego going to get in my way? Is it because when I hear too many rejections, I'm going to turn back? How many rejections am I allowed to hear? I've seen other people do this exercise where, and I've done this a little, I've never been successful at it, where you go and look for rejections. There isn't actually— have you heard of that, the activity?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Rosenna BakariLike, you literally go out and ask people for things that they're not likely to give you just to get a sense of rejection. I've done that. I think I got to 2 and gave up. Like, you intentionally go out and ask people for things. So, but is it the rejection? Is it the lack of clarity? Because there's not a lot of clarity in it, but that's your ego telling you to protect yourself because you don't want to see the failure come. So we start expecting family members or to contribute what they never promised to contribute, right? Or is it that you're not going to ask for help when you need it? You're trying to do it all on your own. How is your ego going to show up in your effort for— in pursuit of entrepreneurship? I mean, it's going to take some internal work. How is your ego? So when things are not going my way still, Still, when things aren't going my way, the first thing I do is check my ego and go, how am I getting in my own way? That's a powerful question. How am I getting in my own way? Because it is so easy to talk about the market is crazy. People don't want this. Da da da da da. We can't change any of those things. What we can change is ourselves. So if you're not willing to do those self-check-ins and check and see how you're getting in your own way, We're just gonna make it more difficult.
Al ElliottYou, about 20 minutes ago, you used a term, hyper ego. Is that one of your terms?
Rosenna BakariYes, that's the hyper ego, and that's the first of the 7 Xs. Because if you don't get the hyper ego in check to bring it down to ego, right? 'Cause we all have ego. Like, yeah, it's gonna hurt, it's gonna sting. It's when we're in hyper ego mode where we immediately lean into defensiveness instead of looking for awareness. So that's the hyper ego. When we insist that someone— like, even when we insisted our friends and families should be supporting us, according to whom? Like, you can't build a business on family and friends. They didn't, especially if they didn't agree to that. Like, this is something that you've grown into. And oftentimes when we grow into it, we think that the world is going to grow into it with us.
Al ElliottYeah.
Rosenna BakariThat doesn't happen. And so these are things that we have to figure out instead of getting defensive, getting too anxious to where we turn around. Just check in with yourself. What am I living with? And so if we get the hyper ego right, then we can see what other things are happening. What indoctrination am I living under? Maybe I'm living under the indoctrination that as a woman, X, Y, and Z, this just isn't gonna work for me. Or as a married person, I have to keep sacrificing for my family and put them first. Or, you know, but all of it really still goes back to how are you identifying with yourself and how are you identifying with the world?
Al ElliottHave you noticed in entrepreneurship something which comes a bit more naturally to you because you've got a background in academia that might not come to someone who hasn't got that background?
Rosenna BakariI think I still rely on information, and that may not come easy for other people who are used to feeling their way through and making assumptions based on their feeling, and this feels right. And I do some of that, but I still heavily rely on where can I find more information about this? I see a lot of times people ask questions online about, about business type stuff. And I'm always thinking, that's something you should be in that, like the knowledge that you're asking is something you should be reading a book about, not looking for immediate advice on. Because this little 2-minute advice that people are giving you on social media is not going to carry you through. I mean, big questions I'll see, like, how do I get a client to do this? Or how do I get more clients? Or how do I sell a book? People write books about these things. You can't just get it on social media, but I, that's easy access. So I think that's what, that's the advantage of academia is just like, we just have a high regard for knowledge from experts and books and research and that sort of thing. So I still, that's still my go-to.
Al ElliottYou've just said that you shouldn't go on Reddit and take the opinion of someone who potentially has never done what you are asking them to do, you should go to a book. But these days, you and I both know that to get a book published, the bar can be a lot lower than it used to be. So how do we know what books we can trust and what we can't?
Rosenna BakariI love that question. It's really an important one. And I wanna distinguish that I'm suggesting that we seek knowledge, valid knowledge, not just books. So let me, let me Clear that up, right? And so you're absolutely right. Everybody has a book now. So for me, what's important is, is this their first book? You know, 7Xs is my best book by far. It's my 7th book. I wrote my first book in 1996, right? And so one is, is this, is this their first book? And is it their first book that has come out since AI?
Leanne ElliottRight.
Rosenna BakariSo I'm just saying, if we looking at who are the experts, were they experts in the field before they wrote the book? That's really important. Are they experts or did they just write a book? So find those people that have been in the field for at least 5 years. Preferably 10 years or more and see, like, who are the leading thought leaders. And they don't have to— let me take leading out, but who are those who have the experience behind them and they do things other than a book? That's the other thing. Is this book their only calling card for what they're trying to give advice about, or do they also have a a real legitimate business in this area? You know, do they have— have they been writing blogs in this area? I even say to people, because I get people ask about book writing all the time, and they say, oh, I want to write a book. And oftentimes I'll say, why do you want to write a book? And, and they'll say, well, or they'll ask me, how do you, how do you write a book? And I always say, I don't write books. I say, I write and I write and I write and I write, and eventually there's a book. I never sit down and say, I'm gonna write a book. You know, I have books that come out approximately every 3 to 4 years because I write regularly articles, blogs, newsletters, this. So I'm always writing.
Al ElliottIs there, is there a particular book that around entrepreneurism, around marketing, around whatever that you've picked up and you've gone, yeah, this is, this is for me an essential tome?
Rosenna BakariI love Daymond John's books, and that has been a real motivator for me. They're practical and down to earth, and they are relationship-based. So, I like those books because I'm relationship-based. I get it. And that's been my nemesis, right, in creating that. And so, I like books that inform me about how to deepen your relationships so that your business grows. And so those are the kind of books that I lean toward. I don't lean toward, you know, the SEO stuff and the technical stuff. Those are great and they just don't seem to appeal to me as much as where I'm trying, where I'm trying to get to and really building client relationships. The Power of Broke, I think, was the, the first one that I read with Daymond John, The Power of Broke. And one of the things I like about it that he also talks about where you are, like starting where you are, like this is where you are, this is how we get there, but we're gonna look at where you are.
Al ElliottI'm sensing a slight pattern with what you are saying is that academia You're the most, you know, not the most important thing, but the thing that you were concentrating on in academia was books or publications or knowledge. And now in entrepreneurship, you've swapped that out for people and relationships. Have I got that right?
Rosenna BakariYes, absolutely. Yes. And that has been the transition. That absolutely has been the transition. Not to leave behind, like I said, I rely on that for knowledge. So not to leave behind, but that was my, that was just the knob I had to turn up was relationships. Like, okay, you know all these things, but somehow you still are missing how this translates into business relationships.
Al ElliottSo going back to your book, there are 7 exits. I don't wanna spoil it for everyone, so we don't wanna give away all 7, but you talk about hyper ego. What is one of the other exits that most people should be leaving behind?
Rosenna BakariI'll give away the last exit because that's the one that's most surprising for people. And the last exit is passion and purpose. 'Cause people are like, passion and purpose? Of course you need passion and purpose. And so what I invite people to do is let go of the pursuit of passion and purpose. There's this idea that people say, find your passion and purpose, and that's what you need. So, one of the things that I see happen is that people find a passion and purpose, and they do passion and purpose the same way that I did intellect, right? They don't know how— they're so close up on it that they struggle releasing it to do what needs to be done. Right. And I find this a lot of times when people step like me who step into entrepreneurship and they just want people to understand this idea or this product. No, see how passionate I am about this? So the whole world is going to be passionate about that. And so they can't let go. They hold on to it without realizing how it gets in the way. But maybe you need to tweak this part of it, but maybe you need to let goal, or maybe instead of these 5 things that you're trying to sell, you sell just one. So letting go of passion and purpose and trading it for business mindset is critical. Passion and purpose gets you about as far as intellect. Like, it's important, but it will not get you where you're trying to go.
Al ElliottI really like this because I think it's one of the biggest misnomers when people are starting a business. They go, I love baking, so I'm gonna start a cupcake company. You've said that you need some passion and purpose. We both know the person who is fanatical about baking is gonna hate cupcakes in 12 months' time, if that's what they do.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo where is the balance, do you think? How much passion do you need to have? But no more.
Rosenna BakariI personally think that you need enough passion that you will do the work for free. That's just my opinion. I think you need enough passion that you'll do the work for free because you may have to, right? And so it's great that if you have that amount of passion and purpose, and then, uh, you need to figure out the mindset you need so that you don't have to do the work for free.
Al ElliottCan I ask you, what's your thoughts on starting a business that you've got no passion about, but you just think, well, I'll start it, I'll systematize it, and then it'll make me money and I can go and do my passion in my spare time. Is that a recipe for disaster?
Rosenna BakariUh, um, it can be. I think it depends on how long it takes you to get there. But if it's a system and you are— because sometimes I know people who are serial entrepreneurs, and so that system will work for them because it's just about setting up a system that will bring the money. So that's sort of their passion and purpose. And so that thing is temporary because it fits into their whole system. But if it's just this one thing, that you're gonna do, it can be pretty exhausting, especially if it's something that you have to sink money into while you're doing it. Then that's where I would really caution you thinking that you're just gonna get in and out, in, make a profit, and get out. That could be, that could be risky.
Al ElliottSo the book, 7 Exits, is it out now?
Rosenna BakariIt's out. It came out September 2025.
Al ElliottOkay, cool. Right. Okay. So it's out now. What was your favorite story or favorite chapter or a lesson you learned or something in there? Tell me, what is it that when you think about still gives you little shivers?
Rosenna BakariOne of my favorite stories and storylines in there is really coming to understand what my relationship was with my husband and family and business because I didn't go into entrepreneurship with that clarity, right? And it wasn't until I got into entrepreneurship that I really understood how comfortable I was having my husband do all the work. And when I tell you the respect that I now have for him for having earned a living for us For 30 years. I'm like, oh, like you just go out the house every day and work. So, so that has really, really given me a new perspective on the responsibility of earning an income because it no longer feels optional for me. It's not optional. Like I have money goals now, whereas before I made money to contribute. But now I have money goals, I have business goals, I have these goals. I'm like, shoot, that's hard. So, so that's why I still use the 7 exits to keep me on track, because it's— it really does bring me back to myself so that I don't get into complacency with where I'm like, well, I don't really have to. What if I just soften this goal? What if I get, you know, I'm like, oh, but in your book you say, right? Are you living what you are suggesting, right? That sort of stuff. So my favorite part of the book is that it's a living book. Like, it stays alive with you. It's not one of those books that you read and you put down and you don't go back to it. I think it's one of those books that you go back to again and again and again. You don't have to race through it. You can read what part of it— I think it's best if you read all 7 exits and kind of have an idea of it, but you don't have to do it that way. If you know that you are so indoctrinated in this ideology that gets in your way because you believe that families should do this or businesses should do that or the world should work this way, it'll help you sort through what that indoctrination is and what you can do about it. But it's best, I think, if you take it sort of in its— as a buffet and really taste everything and read it and decide how you're going to live within the business world. Because that's what it's really about. How are you going to show up in the world, whether it's in business or whether it's in relationships? It really keeps you mindful of and responsible for how you are willing to show up.
Al ElliottIf someone super smart is listening, what other warning signs would you think that they are going to hate entrepreneurship and they shouldn't make that step?
Rosenna BakariI think if they're gonna, they're gonna hate entrepreneurship if they can't stand the thought of pleasing people. Like if you are one of those people who really believe, oh, it doesn't matter if people like me as long as they respect me. If that's your ideology, get out now. Like, get out now, because entrepreneurship is not a space where you can afford to have people not like you. And the success of entrepreneurship really depends on the relationships that you make, making people understand that you care about them, that you care. But to this day, I have a money-back guarantee with You don't like what I did for you? It is not worth this $500, even this $1,000. It is not worth it. Let me give you your money back. In fact, I just had a book returned to me. I sent out a book and for whatever reason, it was undeliverable. I've tried to contact this person at least 3 times with no response. I just sent them their money back. I'm like, what I do know is that this money will go back on your card because I'm not gonna hear a month from now that you, like, I just got no response. I just sent them the money back on their card. Like, because I want people to like me because what I know, and you know, that people do business with people they like.
Leanne ElliottRight?
Rosenna BakariRight. And so if you have the idea that you just need people to respect you but not like you, get out now. Get out.
Al ElliottI wanna ask you a blunt question. How difficult is it to adjust when you come from a world where you are 99% right and you go to a world where you are probably 40, at least 40, 50% wrong every day? How difficult is that to adjust?
Rosenna BakariI have found it extremely difficult. I have cried. I have literally cried at times because it just feels like Why am I doing this? Do I really want to keep doing this? It is extremely difficult. And that is why the work has to be internal, because there's nothing wrong with the world out there. It's all about how you believe the world should be and how you're showing up for yourself and releasing and literally recreating yourself in a way that makes sense for you. And a lot of people think, well, this is my authentic self. Yeah, but there has to be an authentic self that likes entrepreneurship, that can live with the ideals of entrepreneurship, and it's okay to reinvent yourself. That doesn't mean you don't love yourself. It means you're creating a life that you want to live in.
Al ElliottThat was Dr. Rosenna Bakari. And if you're a smart person, I bet that one stung a little bit.
Leanne ElliottWe've got 3 takeaways for founders and business owners, of course. Number 1, your intelligence is a tool. Not a passport. It'll get you in a lot of doors, but at some point the door stops opening. When that happens, the answer isn't to push harder, it's to change how you're showing up.
Al ElliottLesson 2, check your hyper ego before you blame the market. When things aren't working, Rosenna's first question is, how am I getting in my own way? That is a hard question for smart people, but you need to ask it anyway. And lesson 3 from Rosenna, She says to let go of passion and purpose as your North Star. Rosenna's final exit of the 7 Exits is the most counterintuitive one. It's that passion gets you about as far as intellect. Neither one is enough. You need the mindset to serve the market, not just believe in your idea.
Leanne ElliottYou can find Rosenna at rosennebakari.com and her book 7 Exits at transformation.7exits.com. All links are in the show notes.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work. We'll see you next week.