Episode 305 · 28 May 2026 · 42:05
How to go from Founder back to Employee (Without the Shame), with Laurie MacPherson
Featuring Laurie MacPherson
How to go from Founder back to Employee (Without the Shame), with Laurie MacPherson
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The Great Reentry: Founders quietly returning to employment
The 437-Applicant Trap: Why founders shouldn't apply like everyone else
Reframing your founder story: From shame to courage
Handling 'Why are you leaving?' in interviews
interview#interview-questions#job-interview#career-advice#founders
Why employers are nervous and how to de-risk yourself
interview#job-search#employer-concerns#career-advice#founders
Interviewing on the front foot: practical tips
Should you use a recruiter?
The BOLD and REAL frameworks for career and LinkedIn
interview#linkedin#career-framework#personal-branding#job-search
What if there's no CEO role available? Hold your level
The LinkedIn 'Open to Work' badge and final advice
Show notes
From Founder Back to Employee (Without the Shame) — with Laurie MacPherson
Guest: Laurie MacPherson — career and LinkedIn mentor specialising in helping mid-to-senior-level women find their next roles.
Thousands of people left corporate jobs during the pandemic to chase purpose and flexibility. Six years on, a quiet crisis is unfolding: many of those founders are realising business ownership is lonely, financially draining, and exhausting — and they want to go back.
But they're drowning in shame, hiding their businesses from recruiters, and navigating the job market all wrong.
Laurie joins Al and Leanne to break down "The Great Reentry" — why the modern job market punishes founders who apply blindly, how to handle the dreaded "Why are you leaving?" question, and why your next role is sitting inside your network, not on a job board.
Top 3 Takeaways
Your job search starts inside your network. Firing off cold CVs to job boards is a losing battle for former business owners — the 437-Applicant Trap proves it. Your next role is far more likely to come from someone who already knows what you're capable of.
Stop hiding the business. When a recruiter asks why you're leaving self-employment, own it. Frame it as a brave chapter, not a failure. Say it, then stop talking. The shame lives in the hedging — not in the story itself.
Don't apply when you're feeling down. When things get desperate, the instinct is to fire off applications from a place of panic. It doesn't work. Stop, reset, and approach the search from a position of strength — not fear.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottHere's something nobody seems to be talking about. Thousands of founders who went self-employed during COVID are now quietly trying to get a job, and they're too ashamed to tell anyone.
Leanne ElliottOur guest today, Laurie MacPherson, is a career and LinkedIn mentor who works with people making exactly that transition. And she says the shame is real, but so is the practical problem. Most of them are going about the job hunt completely wrong.
Al ElliottCase in point, one of her clients had applied for a CEO-level role alongside 437 other candidates. Laurie's advice was stop applying immediately.
Leanne ElliottToday, Laurie's going to tell us why the job market punishes founders who apply like everyone else, how to handle the shame of going back, and what actually works. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner, and we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Leanne ElliottLaurie has a brutally honest take on why most founders are invisible to recruiters right now, and a surprisingly simple fix. That's coming up right after a quick message from our sponsors.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Laurie MacPhersonNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. We're joined here by Laurie MacPherson, um, really, really interesting woman. Apparently, looking at your LinkedIn, there isn't a job that you haven't done. I'm loving it. Hotel Chocolat to now your own consultancy. Uh, you said you spent a lot of time in retail, but I'm introducing you and I don't want to do that. I'm going to ask you, can you tell us, Laurie, who you are and what you do now?
Laurie MacPhersonI am a career and LinkedIn mentor. Um, and yeah, you're absolutely right, there is Not a job I haven't had. I once went out on my lunch break to buy some biscuits and got a new job. Famously, I worked in retail for many, many years. You're right, retail management. I also worked in travel overseas for TUI, Thomson as they were then, which was amazing. 6 years on land and 2 on sea. Now I help mainly mid and senior level women to find their next role in this market, which is— Sure, we'll talk about that. And also, as a result of doing that, business owners were consistently asking, how do you get LinkedIn like that? How do you be yourself on LinkedIn? Your LinkedIn is so real, it's so you. Mine sounds so stilted. You know, I default to Elizabethan English when I go on there. Please help. And now I also mentor business owners to use LinkedIn and actually sound like a real person. And I'm a huge believer in the benefits of using that to grow your business.
Al ElliottOne of the things that intrigued me was, I believe now I've got it written down, it's called the Great Reentry. Now I've heard of the Great Resignation, but can you tell me what the Great Resignation was and what the great— what you're calling the Great Reentry?
Laurie MacPhersonYeah, so the Great Resignation was during COVID people thinking, I want more purpose, I want more joy, I don't want to go back to that office. Like, this is actually lovely. I love this working from home. That has its pitfalls and its dark side. Again, we can come to that. But lots of folk left their jobs specifically in things like finance, And Sal, you know, it was really boxed in and they're suddenly thinking, I want to go work for a charity and, you know, bring joy to the world. Absolutely brilliant. And so many people are talking about purpose in the workplace and it's so important, you know. And I'm sitting here thinking, I can't blame anyone for wanting more purpose. What I do, what you do, is just an absolute joy to do. It's so filled with purpose and everything that I do and everyone that I meet, I absolutely love. So I get it, but also it led to a lot of people leaving, um, the workplace for self-employment too, and thinking, I'll just set up on my own and bring in that, you know, amazing purpose, and I'll have all that wonderful flexibility that business ownership brings, she says laughing. And so then, 6 years on, the great re-entry is women in particular realizing, oh, I'm not making any money. I'm really lonely. I'm really sad. I'm sitting in my house all day in my pajamas doing work that people can judge, like copywriting and graphic design. You know, thanks for all your work, but I don't like it. They don't know if their work is good, bad, or indifferent. They're very, very much struggling, and they're trying to get back into work, and the job market is so, so difficult. So they also have a great deal of resentment about that because, look at me, I've come out and I've gained all these skills. What do you mean you don't want me? And it's a tough time because there's a huge amount of failure and guilt and shame associated with it because of the way that we make it seem that business ownership is the pinnacle and it's for everyone. So those who are trying to get away from it, it's a massive internal struggle because they came out for a reason.
Al ElliottYeah.
Laurie MacPhersonAnd now they have to go back and it's really, really hard right now. And it's a really messy transition and people handle it really badly online and publicly and privately.
Al ElliottI want to go into a lot more of how you would help someone. So we'll create some fictitious person, we'll call her Marjorie. Um, and she has started a business and now she needs to reenter or wants to reenter the workforce. We'll come back to Marjorie in a second. Something you said there has just occurred to me. The way that we talk about business versus jobs, you use the phrase, I'm gonna have to take a job, whereas we always say, I'm gonna start a business. So even the actual language feels like you're giving up a bit.
Laurie MacPhersonYeah, absolutely. You know, I'm gonna have to take a job because I can't pay my bills, as opposed to this joyous period of starting a business, which, you know, if I remember rightly, wasn't that joyous. I was in the middle of redundancy with NGS and trying to network and grow a business and create a website and all this stuff as well as work full-time. Wasn't that fun, if I remember rightly? But yeah, there's a sense of failure with that. I have to take it. I'm kind of admitting failure here. I've seen it. I'm in a lot of business networking groups and, you know, the chat— someone this month has just done it and said, I'm going to have to take a job, girls, because I'm not making any money. What, you know, what should I do? Or as I say, they're very— lots of business owners are very, very lonely. sitting in their houses with no one who gets it. And, you know, other people are lovely, friends and family, absolutely lovely and so well-meaning. Unless they're running a business, they don't get it. And even my really— one of my really good friends has a partner who's a tradesman, and she runs an online business, and he doesn't get it either. He's like, well, I don't have to dance on TikTok to increase my membership. I just, you know, turn up, do my trade, and get paid, you know. Yeah, you do, but here's— this is the reality of the work that we do. And I think there is that real, you know, well, my husband doesn't have to do all that social media stuff. Other people don't do all that. So it's bound with rules and no rules and shame. And yeah, it's complicated.
Al ElliottSo this Marjorie who we just invented a minute ago, she comes to you and goes, right, I was a freelance graphic designer. That's what I rebranded as. I want to go back, or I have to go back to work. It sounds to me like the shame part of it is probably a core part that you deal with. So how would you talk to Marjorie and help her to get over that?
Laurie MacPhersonSo I would say to her, Marjorie, you had the courage to set out on your own. You know, you've, you've learned so many skills, you've got so much in your, in your toolkit. This is about a moment in time. It's not forever. You don't have to stay in this new job till you retire or die, whichever comes first, which is a phrase I always use with clients who are panicking about stuff. Um, and actually, look at all the things that you've got. We have to be mindful of the wording and the language that we use for those new employers. But first of all, you have to accept for yourself it's not forever. It's a chapter. And if that helps, that was the time, you know, I box it off and I say that was the time I worked there. You know, that was the time I ran the business. That was the time I had a part-time job. There could be a time you run the business again. We're in a very difficult economic situation right now, which, you know, I hope doesn't last forever, is could we, could we make it a moment in time? Could we say, look at all the skills I've gained, but know that no employer needs all those skills? So let's not go to them with, oh, and by the way, I can also do my accounts and taxes, because they don't actually need you to. And it's a bit scary. And we'll watch how we use the language around it. Actually, first of all, give yourself a wee bit of grace and some credit for having the courage to start a business, run a business, And do all of that good work. You know, you have all these skills that others don't have. Let's box that off and let's get going with the actual nuts and bolts of now getting a job in this market.
Al ElliottSo, Marjorie was, let's just say, Chief Operations Officer for a large company. So, she was a big deal. When you're coaching her to go back and find work, are you telling her to go in at the same level, or are we looking at lower, or how do you approach it?
Laurie MacPhersonYeah, usually I would say the same level. And usually before Marjorie starts, I would tell her that her job is going to come from her network before she starts with the process of sending out half-baked CVs. Your job will come from your network, Marjorie, but first you've got to tell them. And that is the point where lots of business owners I've sat down with— and bear in mind that this all happens in the, the quiet bits, right? You're sitting next to someone having a wine and they'll say, yeah, My business is absolutely, you know, I'm gonna have to take a job, Laurie, but oof. I say, oh, that won't be a problem. You're really well connected, you're really well liked, you're lovely. We're here today at this event with all these other professionals who could use your set. Oh, Hank, I can't tell anybody. Say, okay, I hear you. You know, I understand you not wanting to admit defeat as you see it, but your job is in your network. Your job is not sending an application in with 437 others. Actual figure. And this is someone last week who came to me and said, I'm going for a CEO role, so not entry level, 437 other applicants, Laurie, how do I stand out? And I say, you don't. Take yourself out of that. Get a job through your network. Go and tell people you are looking, and crucially, and for what, and how you can help them, and one of them will give you a job. But you have to tell them. Because if they don't know you're looking, no one's going to come to me and say, I've got a great job for you, Laurie, because it looks like everything's fine in my business, which it is, by the way. Um, but you know, it's, it's that— it's no one's going to come in in case they offend or upset you. You have to tell them. And don't— you know, and then you get, oh, but you get all people argue then for that. They argue for the limitations. Oh, but I can't tell him, he doesn't— so don't tell him. Start safe. Start with the people who you know. would help. And then work out, start and always work out who is the safest person you can tell today that you're looking and for what. And they will come through for you.
Al ElliottI had a friend who had a business and he was like, yeah, business is going great. I've got myself a Lexus with twin exhausts and look at me. This is back about 2000. And then when I met up with him a year later, he said, yeah, yes, really, things are going really well. I'm working with Phones 4 U at the moment. I'm like, Wow. That's a big company. What I didn't realize was, and I think you already have worked it out, he was in the shop selling phones. He had a job selling entry-level jobs, selling phones. I almost lost res— well, I did lose respect for him because he kind of lied to me rather than going, no, it didn't work out. I had to go and get a job. So what did he do wrong? What could he have done right? What, how do we position this to our friends without losing a bit of face?
Laurie MacPhersonWe first of all, we have to position it to ourselves first. We have to. And sometimes we have to have it. I call it a holding phrase, right? I'll give you a really good example. So I posted one day about walking out of a job, right? 11 years ago to the date of whatever, posted this post. And it's one of those where nobody likes and comments on the post because they can't. They can't say, I'd like to walk out of mine. Can you help me on the front fees? Right. That's not a thing. So that's why I get a bit, you know, like LinkedIn metrics, it doesn't matter. What matters is this woman messaged me in my inbox and said, hi, I've just walked out my job this morning. You were clearly sent to me today, and can we chat? So I was like, yeah. You know, I broke my usual protocol of can you book in and all that. I just, I said, yeah, what's your number? I'll phone you. So I did. And she said, oh my, I've just walked out, and it was a really nice, high-level, high-paying job. So I said, okay, first things first, and this is gonna sound a bit woo, and I'm not at all, protect yourself before you tell your parents, who are going to say, Why on earth did you walk out of a well-paying job? Protect yourself. Like, have a phrase ready. Like, you know, I don't know what's coming next, but I'm really excited to explore my options. Have a stock hold phrase for anyone who won't get it and just repeat it. Yep. No, I'm not quite sure, but I'm looking forward to finding out. Yep. No, not 100% nailed down yet, but I'm working on it. You know, keep saying it, keep smiling. They will back off. Slowly. Um, you have to have a— sometimes you have to have a holding phrase and be ready and be aware of who's gonna— who you're gonna need to, in that, you know, put that out there for. Usually it's your parents. I'm not generalizing, but I've just had a call from mine who's saying, you know, but they're paying you really well for that. Yeah, but it's, you know, I'm a bit snowed under. Yeah, but they're paying you. Yep, but still feeling the snowed underness, you know, because they value different things to what we value. You know, they value security over purpose. sometimes. And she said, oh my God, they're going to exactly say that because, you know, my dad was a miner and he's going to say, oh, sorry for you, 8 grand and you're turning it down. We had a step. They're going to say it. So be ready. Just protect yourself while we're doing this work in the background. Here's what we need to do practically. First of all, there's a bit of an emotional thing that you have to do. You have to accept that it's time to get the help, first of all. Then you have to go to your people like you, Al, and say, yeah, it didn't, you know, it didn't work out. Oh, do you know what? I loved the delivery, but I wasn't so great at this. You know, I was fantastic at this, not so good at that. You know, absolutely everyone talks about the flexibility, Al. The reality is always checking my phone on the toilet, not so good. You know, have a lovely— you know, I say it all the time, you know, first thing I do in the morning, honestly, is check how my Meta ads are running. I wish it wasn't. And all the wellbeing folks, you can come at me all you like, but that's what we do because that's who we are. So have a get ready in your own mind and then have a bit of a phrase.
Leanne ElliottYeah, listen.
Laurie MacPhersonHasn't, hasn't worked. Um, I'm taking a job right now while I decide what to do next. And stop talking. And I think that's the crucial bit, because we over— you know, the person will ask if they have questions, but we overgo into, you know, there was this and there was that and there was my tax bill. And actually, the person's just concerned that we're okay, usually.
Al ElliottI want to talk more about the optics of going for a job. So you're sitting in front of a recruiter, or you're sitting in front of someone who wants to give you a job. You followed your advice. You haven't gone and applied for a job with 427 other people. You have applied, you've used your network, you're sitting in front of the person who wants to give you a job. They go, I thought you had a business. How do we handle that question?
Laurie MacPhersonWe say, I did, you know, I chose to start a business. I got, I had some great clients, I did some brilliant work. Did you see the work that I did for X? But ultimately, do you know what, this is going to sound a bit sad, but I actually really miss being part of a team. Like, I really missed having colleagues to talk to. I really missed making my lunch with someone. I really missed being on my own all the time. And, you know, graphic design, you never know if, if, if it's right or wrong, or if they like it or if they don't. And just sitting with that all day just really wasn't good for me. So here I am with all these new skills, ready to go. I've done this myself in a situation. I left Glasgow, went to do a job in Edinburgh. It was awful. The whole thing was awful. And when I came back, I'd only been away 6 months. My new bosses said, so why are you leaving this job? And I said, what can I say? You know, I'm a Glasgow girl. I just prefer— I have my friends in my life are here. I very— and I said, I very bravely 6 months ago packed up my life to move through, and now I'm even braver, realizing it didn't work and I'm coming back. And then I stopped talking, and they looked at each other, the area manager and the, and the, um, his manager, and they went, yeah, Can't argue with that, can you? And you see, if you give them something they can't argue with, I prefer working as a team. You can't actually argue with that.
Al ElliottSo we're fixing things one by one with Marjorie. So Marjorie now has told her friends and family. Marjorie has now used her network to get some opportunities. Marjorie's now had the interview, and it's gone very well because she's used exactly what you've, what you said there. She's now got the job. There's gonna be things Marjorie's missing about, about working for herself. She's gonna miss the autonomy potentially. She's gonna miss the freedom. Is there a point in your experience where someone is, Marjorie's 6 months in and goes, I can't do this. I wanna go back and start another business?
Laurie MacPhersonYeah, there can be. And it is, and this is why it's risky for the employer, let's be honest. And that's why recruiter, like an agency recruiter usually goes, it's really risky, but here's how you can de-risk it. And again, I've done this. So I was a holiday rep, traveled for 6 years on land and 2 on sea. came back and wanted another job in retail. And the area manager grilled me and said— and he actually did grill me. His manager was sat behind him in a really weird setup to see, to watch his interview style, which was basically, you know, um, interrogation, lights in my eyes, which I was completely fine with. I'm an ex-holiday rep. I was like, bring it on. Um, many a woman would have crumbled, but I was like, yeah. He said, what, there's a massive risk that you just decide I'm going back abroad? I said, yeah, there is. There's also— I've done it. I've been there and I've chosen to come back for a reason. John in the corner there who's looking out the window, he's actually more of a risk because he might just decide one day, I'm off. I've made a choice to come back. So I think there is that for a recruiter or a manager's point of view. This person has made a choice to take a job. I cannot promise you they will never leave to start another business. Like, we can't. So you do that. There is that, there is that risk, and I wish there wasn't, but there is, and I'm going to be really honest about that.
Al ElliottAm I right in thinking of understanding that you help people to make that transition into work, and then do you still work with them when in the first few months, or is that more of a different service?
Laurie MacPhersonYeah, I do, and I have a service which is, you know, longer-term mentoring, which is for folks who are not moving right now, um, but who want to progress. You know, I've got someone— I've just been on a call with someone who's got a job. She's in there, she's doing grand. She doesn't want to stay there forever, so we're working on getting her ready to take on a board role. And so we're doing the work on the CV and the achievements and what boards need to hear, because in my experience, committees and boards, people forget that they still have to apply, and they do this whole, here's what this will bring to me. bizarre thing. And actually, the board are like, we don't care, we need you to do it for us. So we've just had this conversation about here's what you need to tell them to fit what they need you to be. It's the same as any other role, only, you know, you don't get paid for it. Um, so yeah, I help them with the first— it could be the first time in a new job if the last job hasn't gone well, but you go into a new role and you set your boundaries from the start, whether those are, I am someone who always posts on LinkedIn. So that there's not that, you must be looking for a new job, I see you've posted on LinkedIn, or you're someone who finishes at 5 o'clock on the dot, or whatever it is that you need to bring to the new job. It's much easier to start from scratch than upset and annoy your current employer and colleagues by suddenly changing midway through a role. Not saying don't do it, but it's much harder.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's Us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Laurie MacPhersonSeamless. Seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of pop culture. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out.
Leanne ElliottKeep that in.
Al ElliottWhat's the actual best way you can interview regardless of whether you're a business owner or not? But what's the best way? What are your tips?
Laurie MacPhersonSo it's front foot is my saying, which I learned through a brilliant company I worked with who are unfortunately no longer in existence, which was called The Lens. And they talked about that front foot energy. So you go in and sit over and on the questions, you know, as if you're already— as if, as if you're already in it.
Al ElliottNot in a—
Laurie MacPhersonnot in an arrogant way, but in a, you know, a confident— and they invited you to interview for a reason. So many people— and I mostly work with women— I'll sit back into it waiting like this for the awkward question to come, you know. So, Laurie, I noticed that you job hopped a lot in Wow. Yes, I did. Actually, first of all, my thing, Al, is I can see what the awkward question that they're going to ask is. Not everybody can, because we go through thinking, yeah, but I've not done anything wrong. I've done it all right. I've got this. I've done this stuff. And actually, there's an awkward question usually. You know, there was an overlap there. Yeah, I started a business while I was working. I got my website and started my networking, and I had built a bit of an audience. That's the right thing to do. But, you know, I can always see the awkward question coming for my clients. So I tell them, here's the awkward question. You have 2 choices. You sit and sweat waiting for them to ask it, and it will undo all the good work of all your other answers. Or you take it and you answer it the first 3 minutes. Tell me about yourself. You will have noticed that. You might have seen that. So here's why. And then you shut it down. And I've seen them in one of my interviews. She had a pen ready to write question 2, which was tell me about gaps, and she just scored through it. She went, well, you've already answered that. You're taking control of the awkward elephant in the room, and we all have one. Most of us have one, you know. So why, why did you start a business and then leave it? Why did you overlap? Why did you job hop? Own it. Tell them straight away. It's risky. But for me, it's riskier to sit waiting nervously for it to undo all the Good work. And it's— there's also, of course, recency bias that happens, that it's the thing that they hear last that they'll remember. So start it, get it out the way, and crack on. And a bit of, you know, asking them good questions. People say, what should I ask them? You know, ask them, you know, why, you know, why is the job in existence? And also, I call it up your sleeve, um, intel. Like, we did some intel with one client I was working with, and she found out that it wasn't even on their website yet, but like the day before, we just Googled them, they had an £80 million investment.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Laurie MacPhersonSo there's obviously— that's huge opportunity. So she asked, you know, I noticed that you had an 80— you've had an £80 million investment. What does that mean for your plans and how this role might evolve? Now, they were blown away, but it took her 20 seconds on Google to find. But the reality is, Al, everybody complains about the job market. Everybody complains about recruiters and recruiting. Most people won't do that 20-second research and have that up-the-sleeve question ready right now. And that's the thing that changes the game for the employer. Like, this person knows and cares. So always, always be over it. Have something up your sleeve. Be aware of what your flags and, you know, elephant in the room is, and quiet it down so that it doesn't, you know, spend the next hour trumpeting about and wasting all your good work. And always own that question early on.
Al ElliottShould Marjorie go for a recruiter, or should she not?
Laurie MacPhersonShe, she should, but she should know that— and this is not me slating recruiters, recruiters are brilliant— recruiters are not the Job Center, right? They're not there to get you a job. They're there to fill the role for their client who pays them. And usually— and conditions are always different— they don't get much payment for you joining. They get a payment when you sustain, when you stay in role. So it's usually 6, it can be 3, there could be different conditions. Every recruiter has the right to negotiate terms. So they don't want to put you in if they see you as a risk. So it's not their job to de-risk you. It's your job to convince them that you're safe. And this is where people get it wrong. They're like, well, they didn't get back to me. And I always say, that's because you— now you're working with me— we haven't done a good enough job of convincing them that you're safe. Their flag will be this. This is the truth, right? Like, we can dress it up as all sorts of things, and lots of them are brilliant, and lots of them really want to help candidates and clients. I get all that, but their job is to make money and for the company. And the truth is, if, if they can— if I'm a recruiter on a desk and I consistently place people who leave, the client will take their work to a different firm. It's as simple as that. So they have to know as best as they humanly possibly can that you are safe. So they always struggle with job hoppers. They always struggle with gaps. They always struggle with any sort of flag because they know that the client will. So it's on you to make yourself as safe as humanly possible. And people keep asking me, you say, what do you mean I'm not safe? No, I'm not saying you're not safe. I'm saying what might— what they need to know that you're safe is I've done this before and can do it again. Not transferable skills. They don't care. Sorry, not sorry. They want to know you've done it before and will do it again. And they want to know that you'll stay as best as they possibly can. And that, if you think about it from that viewpoint, you'll understand why certain people are riskier than others.
Al ElliottI've got a note down here, uh, 2 words, BOLD and REAL, and they're kind of like an acronym, I think is the right word for it. So talk us through what are they and what do they do?
Laurie MacPhersonSo there are 2 bits to the business. One is for the career side and one is for the LinkedIn side, though they probably both overlap. They're just acronyms to describe the way that I work. So BOLD is, is the acronym for the career side. And the reason I coined this was because so many women come to me, they're applying for jobs that they don't want, right? And then they get a wee bit annoyed when they don't get them. And when we actually do the digging, I'm like, Did you want to take a 10 grand pay rise— pay cut tomorrow? And I'm like, no. Why were you— why are you applying for it then? Oh well, because, you know. And I had a really good conversation with one who went on to become a long-term client, and she's like, my, my pal who she referred to me, who I got a job for, said to me, what would Laurie do? Would she be giving herself a 10 grand pay cut on a Friday afternoon? No, she would not. Get on the phone to her right now. Start with— so it's build is the B of BOLD. What do you actually want? Like, it might not be realistic, it might not be your next step, it might one after. But what do you actually want? Let's stop applying for things we don't want out of fear and panic. Let's start applying for things that we actually want and will get, or likely will get. We're not— we don't apply— in my world, we don't send 100 applications because you're not going to get 100 jobs, and you don't want 100 jobs. Let's be really honest. You know, we look at the ones— do we want these? Let's apply really well, and we'll get a couple of interviews out of that, 5 or 10. It's really sore when you don't, by the way, because they've hired their sister or went internal or something. And I, and I Fully sit in that and say, yep, but we're still doing it the right way. Own is the O. So we own our achievements, which is where we put numbers and tangibles onto our CVs, applications, cover letters, interviews. So not just, I handled budgets. You know, and I always say to my clients, fabulous, was it a fiver? Well, no, it was 500 grand, right? Can we write that down somewhere? Oh yes. Oh yes. No, that makes sense. So own it. Give me some numbers. Land it by tailoring your CV or application to this specific role. They don't need everything you've ever done ever. We're not a town crier, we're a tailor. And then distinguish is when we use LinkedIn and our network to show that we are an expert, a professional in our field, and we stand out from the rest like that. We're not clamoring with everybody else at the, the, you know, at the entry level of the market for 437 applicants because we don't need to do that. So that's bold. And also, these words both very much relate to how I am and how I live and, and how I, you know, how I interact. So real is all about on LinkedIn, you don't have to start to speak Elizabethan English. You don't have to pretend to be a corporate robot. I've never been corporate, never will be. It doesn't matter. I still get clients. Real is repurpose when it's relevant. If you have content somewhere else or on LinkedIn before, you don't have to be a slave to constant content creation. Embed your authority. So talk about client results, things like this, speaking on podcasts, speaking on stages, when you were asked to do things, press, etc. Adapt for the audience. And by that I don't mean get your Instagram post and put a telephone voice on it for LinkedIn, you know. I mean who's reading, what's important to them, and then layer in. And my 3 rules are Business sales posts, sell your offers. You have to use some authority and personality, which is the thing people really wrestle with on LinkedIn. Um, but you know, I don't want to, I don't want to talk about anything controversial, or, you know, you don't have to. I choose not to talk about war or politics ever. And I also, my line is, if I had a boss, could they sack me for this? So that's my line in the sand. Other people's are different, but. Bring your per— like, bring yourself. And I challenge my clients hard on this, like, bring yourself to LinkedIn. You have no one else. And in an age of AI slop, how do I know that I'm hiring the right person? You have to show them you, and that includes a bit of your actual personality and character. They need to know what they're getting. You know, I don't want a woman to come to me and think she's going to get, you know, a warm bath. When she gets me going line by line through her CV going, how many? How much? What did you save? What did you make? What did you generate? Chase them up, follow them up. Have you spoken to them yet? You know, they need to know what they're getting. They need to know more than ever in an age of, you know, non-human content, why are they hiring you? And they can only get that when you share a bit of you.
Al ElliottAll right, so this person, they had a business, they were a COO, there's no CEO opportunities around, or they've tried it, starting to get a little bit desperate. Should they just applying for any job they see?
Laurie MacPhersonNo, definitely not. And I totally get the fear and panic, and I've had clients saying, I'm like 2 months out of, you know, the horrors. Yeah, hold, hold. Don't go for general admin when you're at your level. I'm asking you to hold. I'm telling you it's coming, you know. Sit in the just deep discomfort. And, and I do it myself, you know, all the time. Um, so I'm not sitting from a place of privilege and, yay, do it. But genuinely, no, because what happens is you'll You'll be— they won't understand how you fit. They won't get it. You won't tell them because you don't have the words. And they'll look at your CV and cover letter and go, I don't know why they're applying for this. No, because it's a risk again. So people say to me all the time, oh yeah, I mean, while I'm doing my PhD or something other, you know, for a better job, I'm just going to apply for a job in a supermarket. So I won't bother taking up your time just now, Laurie, because I'm just going to take a supermarket job. And I always have to go back and say, The supermarkets won't hire you, which really upsets people because you're up against folks who've already got a background in retail right now. You're up against really experienced— that's also why 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds can't get jobs, because they're up against middle-aged men who've got a background in retail as managers and are having to take a step down to be an assistant. So your 16-year-old son can't get his entry-level job because of that. So you're up against it. And I would say, no, you won't get it. I would get it because I've got a retail background. And even then, I've got a master's degree.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Laurie MacPhersonMassive gap, so probably not. You know, you won't get those jobs anyway, so you have to keep positioning yourself at a higher level. But my, my recommendation again is not just to go do so cold, it's to network and network consistently on LinkedIn, on, you know, in real life. Speak to people, look for an opportunity, and don't necessarily wait for a CEO to pop up. Go out there and speak to folk who might need a you This has happened to loads of clients of mine, but they— there's a bit of disbelief when I say it. You know, folk will say, I can't get a 3-day-a-week accountancy job with one of the Big 4. And I'll say, no, you can't. You're right. So don't do that. Go and speak to small business owners who can't afford you 5 days a week, who don't care when you work, who couldn't give a toss if you have to go and do a school run at 3 o'clock, as long as the work's done. And go and work for one of them. But you have to put yourself in front of them, and you have to offer yourself and your skills up. And you have to say, Sounds like you could use someone like me on a part-time basis. How might that work? And be really bold about it. Make lots of— I always tell my clients, make tons of bold asks. Loads of them won't happen. Some of them will. I'm doing a 100 reject— I haven't talked about this yet, actually. I'm doing a 100 rejection challenge this year, which is something that Liz Mosley, who's a graphic designer, talks about.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Laurie MacPhersonYou put tons of random asks— not random asks, I'm not asking for, you know, the front cover of Vogue, I'm asking for things I could feasibly get in a tailored fashion— but lots of them won't land. So when you don't get one, instead of going, oh, I didn't get it, you tick off a tick in your 100 rejections box. And then of course the ones you do get, well, you've got it. I did, I did a really bold one before Christmas. I asked someone quite scary, could I speak to your membership about LinkedIn? And expected nothing. And that's the thing, you have to expect nothing because no one owes you anything, right? She came back the other day and said, yeah, I'm really interested, I'll get back to you. So yeah, don't, don't dumb it. Don't— like, if, if you're going to dumb it down, dumb it really down, but don't try and go in as a CEO to a lower level job because they won't take you. It's the God's honest truth. Then you get the real frustration and resentment. I love— they won't— I can't even get a job as And it's like, but you're pitching in the wrong— and there's often discrepancy when I look at your LinkedIn versus your CV, you know, something's not telling me the whole story. And that's when I say to you, right, there's a disparity here of, of I'm looking at that and they've gone, I don't really understand what you do. And lots of folk, oh, my work can't be summed up in a sentence. It translates as, I don't know what you do.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOkay, so in these dying minutes, I have a quick question. Um, the open to work badge on LinkedIn. Now I know what I think of it. What do you think of it? Is it a good idea or not?
Laurie MacPhersonI think I'd want people to know so they could help, but I'd tell them specifically what, you know, what I want, like what I'm looking for, so that people don't again offend or upset. People want to help, but they don't know how. I say yes, I understand people think it might you know, mean that you look desperate or lowball or all these things that I've seen. That's on you to kind of manage, you know, thank you but no. And remember, an offer is just that, you know. I don't— you don't go out with anyone, everyone that offers you either, or life would have been very different. Um, you know, you don't— it's an offer, it's a yes or a no. So I, I think I would use it. I would want people to know and be able to help me. Some people are using it who don't seem to be looking for work, which is a bit bizarre, and I think it's because they want clients.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Laurie MacPhersonBut that's a bit unclear. What I would say is, is it really clear what you want and what you have to offer? If it's not, then it's— it all goes into kind of muddly territory.
Al ElliottSo, if someone's listening to this and thinks, yep, Laurie's the kind of person I, you know, she's right for me, what's the next steps? Where do they go? What do they— what can they read about you?
Laurie MacPhersonYeah, so I've got a website, just laurie.macpherson.com. I am always on LinkedIn as Laurie MacPherson, Career and LinkedIn Mentor, and I'm also on Instagram.
Al ElliottSo lastly, that person, there's probably a lot of people out there, they are desperate for a job. It feels like nothing's going their way. They're depressed, they're despondent, they're lacking in hope. Is there a message you'd want to give them?
Laurie MacPhersonYeah, stop. You know, today, tomorrow. I said this to a client last Christmas, before Christmas, stop applying with that CV. And she went, sorry, what? She said, but I need a job. I said, yes, stop applying with that CV because you're not going to get the job that you want with that. So stop. Come back to me and let's regroup. Like, is it clear? Are there numbers on there? And don't argue with me, I can't give you numbers, because you're actually arguing for your limitations. You're arguing for something that's not helping you. Go and get some numbers, find some information out. You know, don't tell me everybody I've ever worked with since moved away and they haven't. You know, get some information, look at it clearly. If I was a recruiter, what am I seeing? You know, are you tailoring? Are you shouting into the void? Are you using LinkedIn? Are you using your network? Have you last spoken to them 3 to 6 months ago. They forgot. Tell them again. You know, are you showing why this job? Are you giving them specific reasons? No one remembers, I want to help people. It's wet. Stop using it. Use a specific reason that you actually want this particular job or want to do this particular thing. But most of all, look at your network and who out there can help you. People want to help right now if they're fortunate enough to be in work or employ, you know, or have a business that's successful, they want to help. But you have to make it abundantly clear what sort of titles, where in the world, whether you want remote, hybrid, office, all of this good stuff, and how. And, you know, if you have a look at it objectively, is it selling you at the right level? If it's not, get help. And I'm not just saying this because this is my job, but genuinely, you know, would you rather send another 40 applications that you won't get or spend an hour with me And I'll fix it and have that objective expert view. I do not wash my own windows nor bake my own bread, but I absolutely am bloody brilliant with a CV and a LinkedIn profile. And so outsource to the experts. I've done a lot of it to help to grow the business, and I think more folk would get there a lot faster if they just said, I'm not getting something right here, let's get some help.
Al ElliottThat was Laurie MacPherson. And if you're a founder who's been quietly wondering whether it's time to go back to employment, I hope she's made that feel a lot less scary.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and here are 3 key takeaways for anyone who is navigating that transition right now. Lesson 1, your job is in your network, not on a job board. Laurie's seen it over and over— founders sending out dozens of cold applications and hearing nothing back. The founders who land roles quickly are the ones who tell people they're looking, are specific about what they want, And let their network do the heavy lifting. If your network doesn't know you're available, nobody's coming.
Al ElliottLesson 2, stop hiding the business. When a recruiter or a hiring manager asks why you're leaving self-employment, don't shrink. Laurie's reframe is simple. It takes courage to start a business, and it takes equal courage to recognise it's not working and make a change. So lead with that. Say something like, I made a brave decision to go out on my own. Now I'm making an equally brave decision to come back. Say it, then stop talking.
Leanne ElliottAnd lesson 3, don't apply when you're feeling down. When things get desperate, the instinct is to fire off applications at anything. Laurie's advice is to resist it. Applying below your level doesn't work. You won't get the role, and the rejection makes everything worse. Hold your level, get specific, and work your network hard. The right role comes faster than the wrong one.
Al ElliottYou can find Laurie at laurie-macpherson.com. Notice MacPherson, not McPherson, or search for Laurie MacPherson on LinkedIn. Links are, of course, in the show notes.
Leanne ElliottThat's it for today. This is Truth, Lies and Work. We will see you next week.