Episode 135 · 10 October 2024 · 1:05:36
How to Get a Job in Tech: Insider Advice from Industry Veterans John White and Nick Korte
How to Get a Job in Tech: Insider Advice from Industry Veterans John White and Nick Korte
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Introducing John White and Nick Korte
What is technical pre-sales?
panel interview#technical-pre-sales#pre-sales#systems-engineering#tech-careers
The importance of being a tinkerer
panel interview#tinkering#curiosity#learning#technical-skills
The psychology of IT professionals
panel interview#it-professionals#personality-types#psychology#workplace
Nick's story: from teaching to tech
panel interview#career-change#teaching-to-tech#tech-careers#personal-story
Salary insights and career progression
panel interview#tech-salaries#salary-negotiation#career-progression#compensation
Do you need a computer science degree?
panel interview#computer-science-degree#education#tech-careers#degree-requirements
What are employers actually looking for?
panel interview#employer-expectations#hiring#skills#job-search
Education requirements on job descriptions
panel interview#job-descriptions#education-requirements#hiring#tech-jobs
Navigating your own development
panel interview#professional-development#self-improvement#career-advice#networking
The reality of tech interviews
panel interview#tech-interviews#interview-process#career-advice#job-search
"Stump the chump" questions
panel interview#interview-questions#stump-the-chump#tech-interviews#preparation
Navigating tech company culture
panel interview#tech-culture#company-culture#workplace#tech-industry
Tech work exists everywhere
panel interview#tech-jobs#industry-overview#tech-everywhere#career-opportunities
Staying relevant in the age of AI
panel interview#ai#generative-ai#staying-relevant#tech-skills
Lessons from hundreds of podcast guests
panel interview#podcast-lessons#career-advice#public-work#visibility
The importance of transferable skills
panel interview#transferable-skills#career-change#skills#employability
Making yourself employable and where to find John and Nick
Show notes
How to Get a Job in Tech: Insider Advice from Industry Veterans John White and Nick Korte
Guest: John White — Systems Engineering Manager at Nutanix — and Nick Korte — former math teacher turned IT professional, now in technical pre-sales. Together they co-host the Nerd Journey podcast.
Thinking about a career in tech? Whether you're starting from scratch, considering a pivot, or just curious about what the industry is really like, this episode is your crash course.
Al and Leanne sit down with John White and Nick Korte, co-hosts of the Nerd Journey podcast, who bring decades of combined experience across a range of tech roles. They get into the wide world of tech jobs, the personality traits that actually help (and hinder) IT professionals, and why being a "tinkerer" might matter more than any certification.
They also bust myths about tech interviews, unpack what those famous tech company cultures are really about, and share honest advice on salaries, career progression, and staying relevant in a field that never stops moving. Plus, Nick shares his inspiring journey from the classroom to the command line — and what that taught him about finding your path.
Top 3 Takeaways
Tinkering beats credentials. The most consistent trait across successful tech professionals isn't a degree or certification — it's curiosity and a willingness to play, break things, and figure out how they work.
There's no single path into tech. From Nick's journey out of teaching to people who learned everything online, the industry rewards demonstrated skill and genuine interest far more than the route you took to get there.
The interview goes both ways. Tech interviews reveal as much about the company as they do about you. If the process feels combative or irrelevant, that's a signal about the culture you'd be walking into.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
John WhiteNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYep. So it's Thursday today. Yay, it's Thursday. So this is our regular Thursday interview series. If you like to keep up to date with the latest news and love a good agony aunt segment, then you'll like Tuesday episodes. We bring you our weekly news roundup, our brand new segment called Hot Takes with our bank of workplace experts and a workplace expert— sorry, workplace, I just made a new word up— workplace experts. And of course, our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Lianne.
Leanne ElliottIn today's episode, we're giving you a crash course in the world of technology careers. So whether you're looking to get into the world of tech for the first time, considering a career change, or simply curious about the tech industry, this episode is packed with invaluable insights and practical advice. Oh, and if you are a manager or recruiter in the tech world, this will give you an invaluable glimpse into the candidate experience.
Al ElliottWe're joined by 2 seasoned tech professionals, John White and Nick Corte, co-hosts of the fabulous Nerd Journey podcast. Decades of combined experience in various tech roles, they offer a candid look at what it really takes to build a successful career in this dynamic field. In this episode, we'll talk about the vast array of job opportunities in tech, from coding to pre-sales and everything in between. What skills and qualities tech companies are really looking for in candidates. How to navigate the interview process and stand out from the crowd. The truth about tech company culture, Is it all ping pong tables and free snacks? And practical strategies for breaking into the industry, even if you don't have a traditional background. Oh, of course, you're gonna get tips for staying relevant in a rapidly changing technological landscape. Yes, that is AI we're talking about. This is the potential impact of AI on tech careers and how to future-proof your skills.
Leanne ElliottIf you are ready to decode the secrets of landing a job in tech and building a rewarding career, this episode is your backstage pass to the world of technology careers. So let's go and meet our guests. And learn what types of roles are available in the tech industry.
John WhiteMy name is John White. Um, I am currently a systems engineering manager at a technical company called Nutanix. And, uh, I'm co-founder and co-host of the Nerd Journey podcast with Nick.
Nick KorteSo Nick Cordy, I primarily, I'm a technologist, former math teacher turned IT person, now in technical pre-sales for a technology company. And I'm also the co-host of the Nerd Journey podcast. It was actually John's idea to start, and he's kindly dragged me along since we began, and it's just been an incredible experience.
John WhiteThe type of role that I've done for most of my career, uh, when I say pre-sales, is being part of an account team that is in charge of selling a company's technology products to another company. So mostly business-to-business sales, right? For most complex products, there is a split responsibility. One person is the salesperson who's responsible for the business process, understanding who has relationships within a customer, who can maybe sign for what amount, who has which problems, and figuring out, you know, how they are judged, how their performance is judged, so that, you know, a sales campaign can incorporate success for that person in their job role. And then the other side, which is what I've done, is the, the technical partner in that account team who is responsible for making sure that there is a good match between the technology that is being sold And the problems that that customer is trying to solve.
Nick KorteI'll piggyback on what John said. So both of us have experience working for software companies in this technical pre-sales space. So let's just stay at software companies for a second. If you work for a software company or a technology vendor, there's the sales organization, which we, our technical people, have to live inside, support our customers, make sure that the technology we have will do what they want for their outcomes to provide value to their business. So we've got to have some knowledge, some deep knowledge of our own product, but also deep technical knowledge of what the customer is doing. Now, also at the software companies, if you're not in the sales organizational funnel, you might be part of a product team. You might be someone who actually writes the code, as you said, a programmer. Software developer, a software engineer, a product engineer— those could all mean the same thing. You might be in charge of integrations or how this particular part of the product works. There are also people who are product managers who are in charge of the strategy for this product and how it goes to market and what features are we going to add to this product to make it more valuable to our customers or go into a new total addressable market for this product. There are people who are technical marketers, so they are getting the word out about this product but in a very technical way so that you understand how it works, creating content from the perspective of a blog, a video, maybe speaking at an event. So all of those different positions are possibilities for people out there. If you are someone who is younger in your career, there are technology companies, whether they're hardware or software, that will train you in the technology and then put you in a role. It might be in pre-sales, it might be in post-sales somewhere. So on the post-sales side of these technology companies, you have people that do the implementations. So that's another career. I could be the person who is helping a customer architect this system to do this thing that they want to do, and then I go and teach them how to do it, or maybe I do some of it for them, or maybe I do the whole thing for them. That's the technology company, right? Then if your company is not a technology company, let's say they, they make widgets, right? They're a manufacturing company of some sort. Well, they have internal technology people. We might just call them IT people. That could span from end-user support. You're the person who answers when anyone has a problem with the technology they use to do their work. Or maybe you work on the systems side where you have to make sure the backend systems work so that people can access files, programs, the financial system. Any business-facing systems that that company needs to do business.
John WhiteThere's lots of software systems that go into running even a small business, but if you start at the larger end of small businesses, you start to get fairly complex technology systems that tend to need either oversight from the company or maybe even a specialist as the company gets larger. In that specific type of system.
Nick KorteYou might be on the cybersecurity team where you have to secure those systems, secure the network that those have to be connected to, and how does the data flow in and out of that company's environment so that they can do business, and how does it meet the compliance regulations. But there's another type of, I guess, company you could work for, and that's a value-added reseller or Or a consulting firm where you might work with many different companies across many different technologies.
Leanne ElliottSo, a huge spectrum of different things you can do within tech. Is there anything that unites them, do you think, in terms of a mindset or a skill set or characteristics? Is there anything that you think somebody probably needs to invest in or have innately if they want a career in tech?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.
John WhiteThe characteristic that I've seen most consistently is that of tinkerer. And someone who tinkers tends to have maybe lost their fear of breaking things, for better or for worse. So the apocryphal, in a previous generation, person who took apart their radio and put it back together again. Someone who Plays and pokes and wants to know how things work. And in general, all of these technology systems have kind of what we call sandbox environments, which are environments that you can play around in without actually breaking a system that's actually being depended on to do anything. Again, The tinkerer, the person who wants to play around, who understands that if this thing breaks, it doesn't actually cause a hospital to go dark and people's lives to be impacted. That's the characteristic that I've seen in common. I don't know, Nick, am I missing something there? Yeah, no.
Nick KorteI think everything you said was on point and that the tinkering comes from maybe at a higher level, this curiosity element. Why did pressing this button or doing this thing work? Why did that break it?
Al ElliottYes.
Nick KorteSo I think the tinkering and the curiosity naturally leads you to have to do some sort of troubleshooting and fixing. And a lot of people that we have spoken to on the Nerd Journey podcast, as John said, they started tinkering with something, maybe accidentally, maybe someone asked them to fix something and they just went ahead and did it, and they realized that they had an aptitude for it or a real interest in it, and they kept going with that. How can I learn this at a deeper level, or does this run into some other element in technology. What, you know, what can I actually do with this thing? And I think a lot of it spans from that. Go mess with this thing. What can it do? What are the problems that it can solve? And what does clicking here or changing this do? And finding that really interesting as a way of learning.
Al ElliottLeigh, quick question. Do people in IT have certain personality types, or do certain personality types suit a job in tech?
Leanne ElliottWhat—
Al Elliottgive me, give me the psychology, psychological breakdown of it.
Leanne ElliottWell, the psychological breakdown is— first questions first. Do people in IT have certain personality traits? Yes, there is some evidence for that. So IT professionals have been shown to have high levels of curiosity, as Nick and John were talking about there, um, high levels of tough-mindedness. Open-mindedness and agreeableness. So what that basically means is they're a bit more logical, very good at problem solving, but also good team players. They do also tend to be lower in traits such as conscientiousness, extraversion, and emotional stability, and that does fit in with the nature of IT work. If we think about it, it involves lots of analytical problem solving and very focused tasks. But it is important to remember that IT roles are diverse, as we've heard. So there is a big difference between, say, a software developer and an IT project manager. So different roles might attract different types of people. As for whether certain personality types are better suited to tech roles, that's where things get a little bit tricky. So some traits, as we've said, like being logical, being adaptable, do help in tech. Being tough-minded and agreeable is useful because IT work requires logical thinking and some level of teamwork. Openness, another really valuable trait since tech does involve lots of learning of new tools, innovation, and adapting to change. But we need to be really careful about relying too heavily on personality to predict success in a job, because while personality may draw us to certain occupations, our jobs can also shape our personality. So studies have shown that over time, job demands can have an impact. For example, consistently facing high workloads could make a person more open, or even more sociable, perhaps they're asking for some help from their colleagues, regardless of how they started out. So yes, certain personality traits can make someone more suited to the world of tech, but it's only one factor of many. It's really about how your personality interacts with the environment you're working in, the skills, experience that you have, and also the company culture too. That all plays a part.
Al ElliottSo I think at this point it's quite clear that there's a range of opportunities, whether you're interested in coding, problem solving, or sales, there seems to be a place for you in tech, almost certainly. But what if you don't have a traditional tech background? After the break, we hear how Nick went from teaching to tech and what the challenges were.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
John WhiteSeamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science, in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
John WhiteI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Nick's story of transitioning from teaching to tech is particularly inspiring. Let's hear more about how our guest found their way into the industry.
Nick KorteAt one point when I was teaching high school math, my wife and I wanted to start a family, and we talked about it, and I didn't think that I would be able to make enough money to really allow her to stay home with our child or potential potentially more than one child. And we— I tried to get a different job. I did some like database analysis for a defined benefits outsourcer, worked on pension plans and a database calculator. So I got to tinker a little bit there and then kind of stumbled into getting a job for this manufacturing company who wanted someone that was like part analyst, part IT person. So I'd done statistical analysis for this fabrication company as like a consultant type thing while I was teaching. And when they found out that I had left teaching, they offered me a job to do basically spreadsheet financial analysis type stuff and then work on the computer systems. And so from there, I kind of went from the guy who had to read the manual to plug the computer in for someone to the guy who eventually knew all the systems inside out and had built a lot of them by the time I left. So, it was just an incredible learning experience.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Wow.
Leanne ElliottAnd John, how about you? Was tech always your aim in terms of career? How did you get into the industry?
John WhiteWhen I went to school, I thought I was going to be an electrical engineer. About halfway through that process, I went, actually, I don't know what electrical engineers do, But if it's what I'm doing right now, I can't stand doing it for another 2 years, much less another 30 or 40. So I changed majors to political science. The school that I went to, that was a pretty— it was still a very, very technical field. It was basically all the tools that economists use, just analyzing social science problems. It's called Freakonomics. So if anybody's ever read that book, then that was the kind of social science program that I was in. But yeah, I left, had no real goal or aim. This was kind of the mid-'90s, tried to do a startup. So got a little bit of experience doing web infrastructure and production Unix/Linux systems, and then kind of drifted over into the IT operations side of things. Got a job in IT operations, did it for the better part of a decade, and then realized that there's probably a lot more money. Even as much as technology might make more money than teaching, Yeah. Technology pre-sales makes more money than technology operations.
Al ElliottWhat can you expect to earn in a tech job? Well, like any industry, there's a huge range of salaries available. And of course it also is dependent on where you are in the world, but John gives us a rough guide, plus some handy tips on finding out the exact salary ranges for potential roles you're looking at.
John WhiteIn the current environment, there's a very, uh, helpful tool, which is again, LinkedIn, because people Or companies do job postings on LinkedIn. And in the States, different states have different laws about posting ranges that the job is going to pay. So the state that I live in, California, which is, I don't know, the 5th largest economy in the world if it was independent, so there's gonna be lots of job postings in California. By state law, they have to post the, uh, the, the job scale, the, the minimum salary and the maximum salary. So for the different types of jobs that you might be interested in, go look for a company that's hiring that job in California, and you'll get a, a pretty decent, you know, view of, of what that, that job salary is. But, you know, I'm I'm going to say that technology entry-level might be in the high $60,000 a year. I know that in some of the positions that we hire, maybe on the pre-sales side, that might start to go higher. I've heard of organizations that hire people out of college at $80,000 or $90,000. I think entry-level in pre-sales, which is again, which Nick and I have done, it's a weird thing because a lot of times entry-level is hiring out of somebody who's had a 5 to 10-year IT operations career. So it might be entry-level for the position, but it's still mid-career what is the position, right? That is still probably in the $130,000 to $150,000 a year. Again, it's kind of a unique skill set because there's a technology background and then there's a personality. You have to be comfortable in a sales role, so it's a little bit of a tough position to hire into, so maybe has kind of a premium salary associated with it. And that job that, you know, again, Nick and I do, it is a commission-based job. A lot of times we're uncomfortable talking about it that way. I think that companies want to incentivize these pre-sales technical roles so they get a taste of the commission structure that a pure salesperson will would be. But the commission part of it, you know, really doesn't rise above, say, 30%. So, you know, it's not a 100% commission like, you know, some sales roles, or even, you know, 50/50 or 46/2, the way, you know, most sales roles are structured. And, you know, when I give those ratios, I'm talking about, you know, they say you're your total compensation or on target, on target, on sales target compensation, what percentage of that would be a commission. And, you know, generally doesn't rise above 30% on the technical side, but it can be as much as, you know, 60% or even 100% on the sales side.
Leanne ElliottSo, you've decided you do want to pursue a career in tech, but where do you start? Do you need a computer science degree? Can you learn everything online? Our guests have some really practical advice for those looking to break into the industry.
Nick KorteI think the answer is, it depends. We've heard people who have done it lots of different ways. I would say that no matter what you do, you need to line yourself up to eventually be able to tell your career narrative. That's what Jason Belk would tell you. A guest on our podcast. And in order to tell your career narrative, you have to have documented the work you did. So if you're doing this tinkering, and that sounds like you, do the tinkering, but make yourself some public proof of work that goes along with it. Here's what I did in this lab environment that John spoke to, this sandbox. I tinkered with this. I changed this. I tried to do X. Not only did I do it, but I've written about it so you can see my thought processes of what I changed and why I changed it and how I fixed it so that someone can go and look at that and see that you have some aptitude. Now, what's the proper entry point? One entry point could be, I learned it on YouTube and I did all this tinkering and I built this public proof of work or went after this certification. There are internships out there. Technology companies offer those a lot of times to people. It might be for people who are younger. Sometimes you can go and, for example, we had a guest named Eric Gross who runs technology boot camps for people who want to become software developers. It's called the Tech Academy. So maybe you're a career changer and And you want to look at something like that. And the boot camp is a little bit more experience-based, hands-on, shorter span than taking a college course, for example. I would say it's a mix of continuing to tinker and do the things you enjoy, building a portfolio of publicly referenceable work, and going and finding a technical community in an area where you're interested. Like, oh, I think I might like to be a network engineer. Well, let me go to meetup.com or go to the Networking User Group or NUG website, which we can give you as a link for the show notes, and find a user group and go talk to people who do the thing. How did they get there? Why do they like doing it? What would they tell you since they're in this role now that they're looking for in candidates coming in there? John, you probably have some stuff to add to that, I imagine.
John WhiteYeah, especially when you're going to those communities and seeking them out, it's really good to ask for maybe informational interviews is what I call them. I'm not interviewing for a job, I'm just asking you your view on your role, what the day-to-day looks like, how you get personal satisfaction and career advancement in that role and in that industry. And I think it's another way to describe or to gain insight into a previous question you asked, which is, what are the roles in this industry or in this technology area? Right. So, In this network engineer example, what is a network engineer? What do you do on a daily basis? Is that a physical thing? Is it a software thing? Is it a design thing? Is it an operational thing? Are there aspects to all of those things? Tell me what that looks like and then tell me how you got into it, as Nick mentioned. Depending on the role, there's different entry points. I would say the entry point which requires the most still has a bias towards formal education is programming or software engineering or whatever it's called today. I would say the industry still has a bias for a 4-year degree in computer science when hiring for software engineering. That might be moving a little bit away from that bias, but it's still biased in that direction. So getting as much formal education there towards a 4-year degree is probably going to benefit one. And it might not necessarily even be the 4-year degree, it's just that it's an easy way for somebody to filter and say, well, were you able to go and do this thing and complete it? Most other IT operations types of jobs, there's very few places that actually have formal degree programs. It tends to be a little bit more like an apprentice, journeyman, master type of process without the actual benefit Of a formal apprenticeship journeyman and master certification or process. At least in the United States, for example, journeyman electrician actually means something. It means that you went and got a journeyman certificate in being an electrician, which tends to be regulated. In IT operations, that doesn't actually exist. The very typical path into the industry that we came from, IT operations, is you were not doing IT operations, but you were maybe the most compute savvy or demonstrated the most skills in that area, and then just eventually got asked to do it. That's the weird typical entry point.
Nick KorteLooking at some job descriptions at different companies out there. What's on those from a required education, required experience for, you know, you can do the research in the community groups, whether that's in person. There are also online forums, whether that's Reddit, Spiceworks community, or others. Other vendors have forums that you can look out in and meet people on. But I can research it by meeting people individually. I can research it by looking at job descriptions. And then I can sort of stay on top of that over time. And there are those internship and boot camp type things. We mentioned the Tech Academy that Eric Gross runs. There's also, if you're a cybersecurity person or think you're interested in cybersecurity, there's Ellington Cyber Academy that a former guest of ours, Kenneth Ellington, started to help people get into cybersecurity. And it's one of those, I would say, more the journeyman-master type approach that John highlighted, helping that person learn and give what they call a capstone presentation of here's the security risk in this environment and how we mitigated it, how it got in, and being able to communicate those findings to people who work in cybersecurity. So I think a lot of people in our industry want to help get more talent in. And some of it might just be giving yourself the chance to connect the dots between you and someone who's looking for the skills you have.
John WhiteAgain, going back and answering a previous question, right? What are the different types of jobs that are available and how do you find out about them? The very easy way to find out about that is to go to all the companies that you can think of or names that you see on the sides of buildings, go to their job sites and see what kinds of technology jobs that they are hiring, and you will get a good snapshot of the types of jobs that that company hires for. And when you look at enough of those, you know, not that you are trying to necessarily apply for them right away, but you'll understand the types of jobs that are out there and the types of things that are very typically advertised for, like database administration, Network administration, network engineering, database engineering. You know, administration/engineering/architecture is, you know, with various technologies as a prefix. And going through and reading what the requirements are. And a lot of times that's going to be in jargon that you don't necessarily understand. And that is Anytime you see jargon that you don't understand, we have this magical thing called Google where you can go look up what that is and dive in, see if that's something that's interesting. All these companies are just publicly telling you what it is that they actually hire for. And don't stop at just one company, don't go more than maybe 20, But, you know, look and see what's being hired for, and that will be a pretty good indicator of, of the types of jobs that are available. And when you don't understand a job, that's also another gift, you know. We have another tool that you can, you know, take part in— LinkedIn, right? Join LinkedIn and then look for that title. Or look for technology, look for somebody who does that job or has that expertise in their LinkedIn, and then reach out to them and say, hey, I'm just investigating this industry. What is this? Ask for an informational interview basically, right? Do you have 15 minutes to tell me what this is to a layperson who's not in the industry who's trying to understand? And a lot of people are willing to give their time to do that.
Nick Korte100% agree with what John just said. And I would say, if you go and talk to people, it doesn't have to be a hiring manager. As he said, you know, you don't— you're not necessarily looking to get to a hiring manager out of the gate. You just want to talk to somebody who does a job that seems interesting. So the closest place for you might be the IT folks at the company where you work. Go talk to them. If you're able to do that, ask them what they're doing, why they did it, but ask them Ask them what they're learning. What are they studying and sharpening their skills on right now? Because if I'm trying to get into the tech industry right now, it might take me a couple of years or more.
John WhiteI don't know.
Nick KorteIt just depends on what my skill set is and how the job market is. But I need to stay on top of job descriptions and kind of see what's marketable and what companies want. But also, let's compare that with what people are learning. Do those trends match? And how can I sort of navigate my own development and skill sharpening as a result?
Al ElliottI really genuinely hope it's encouraging for you to hear that there are multiple paths into tech careers, whether through formal education, boot camps, or even just self-study. The key seems to be cultivating this curiosity we mentioned before, and also being very, very willing to learn. But once you've got the skills, how do you land that first job? Let's talk about the interview process.
Leanne ElliottYou've probably heard stories about tech interviews, multiple rounds, brain teasers, and even unpaid work assignments. It sounds pretty intimidating. I asked John and Nick about this. Is this the reality of tech interviews, or is this just hype?
John WhiteI'm a hiring manager now, so I will say that You know, our interest in, as hiring managers, is finding the right person in the most efficient way possible. Um, I think that the brain teaser era has gone. A previous company I worked for, uh, Google, was fairly famous for that. You know, like maybe early on in his career, how many, how many, uh, ping pong balls fit in a 747? How does that help me do the job? I don't know why you would ask me that. And even, I think early on at Google, there was a, oh, it's going to take 12 interviews to get in. And Google being famously a data-driven company said, well, how successful are— how important is the interview process past 3 or 4? And it was like, well, it's—
Nick KorteYeah.
John White70% correlated with the person that we would hire at interview 12. So a lot of that effort is wasted. And I think they, you know, that specific company really rationalized it to, to get down to as few interviews as possible. And, and in my experience in the jobs that I've had to hire for, it's the same thing. It's a, you know, if it goes a long time and I'm You know, putting people through, you know, multiple interviews. It's painful for everybody involved. And, you know, the, the longer it goes, the, the better chance I have of losing somebody to a different job that they're interviewing for. So it's, it's not really in my, my interest to do that. One, I would say anytime somebody's asking you to do free work, that's just a— you know, I've never understood that. That's, that's the time to to gracefully bow out of that interview process. That's my strong opinion. Maybe, you know, I try to say strong opinion loosely held, but that's a red flag for me. If they're asking you to do free work during the interview process, once you're an employee, how much free work are they gonna try to get out of you? So I try to say this, the interview process is indicative of how the company is going to treat you afterwards. So, you know, as a hiring manager, I try to have a good interviewing process because I want people to say, oh, okay, so, you know, this has gone well. It's tough, but, you know, it's been rewarding, and that's how the job is going to be.
Nick KorteI would call them stump the chump questions. My theory is that those may actually come from being interviewed by someone who could be like your teammate in the future, who just hasn't really been taught how to interview people. And it wasn't clearly communicated to that person what the hiring manager wanted in an individual. Maybe, maybe there's some ego that that person brought into the discussion. Or maybe they just need to ask the question a little bit differently so that it doesn't come off as combative. Or put the, put the person answering on the defensive. You know, I may, I may need to understand what you know about the Linux command line. But I can ask questions in a way that are constructive and productive, and not something that's just going to step in your Cheerios, if you know what I'm saying.
John WhiteYeah, that combative question is, uh, you know, or the, uh, how, you know, how much do you know about this obscure part of the job? You know, not necessarily productive, but it also can be a way for the interviewee to explain their thought process, you know. Or it's, you know, I remember again at a previous position You know, we would say like, we're— our interview process is probing for the edge of your knowledge, right? Because we need to understand where the edge is so that we can assess whether that's a good edge or, or a bad edge. Or, you know, if it's, if it's not really that far out there, do you have other aspects of your job skills that compensate for that? You know, it's just, it's just, it might be an assessment, and it also might be a way for you to demonstrate your thought process and how you solve problems like this. Oh, in this, you know, very technical example that Nick gave, you know, this command line on Linux command line. Oh, I don't know that specific, you know, command, but, you know, I've used, you know, this command and this command to do similar things. So I think I, you know, I'd maybe I'd I'd look up the documentation and see how similar to that it is. And then if I still didn't understand, I might go ask a colleague. Basically, here's how I solve problems that I don't know the answer to. That's a great point. It's a really good way in an interview to show that. And it's feedback that you can give to a recruiter or You know, hiring manager, you know, as they ask you about the process. Hey, how, how are the things going? Oh, you know, I got this interview question where, um, you know, they're asking me about, you know, something that was really at the edge of my knowledge, and I— all I could really do was answer about how, how I'd figure that out. And, you know, because I didn't know anything about it, I, I, I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but that's what I did, you know. So you can again give feedback Um, through, throughout the, uh, the process.
Al ElliottSo thankfully, it seems like the days of these trick questions and marathon interview processes might be behind us. But what about after you get the job?
Leanne ElliottYes, tech companies are famous for their unique cultures. We've all heard about the legendary perks at big tech companies— free food, nap pods, and on-site gyms. But what is it really like to work in tech? Is the culture as innovative and exciting as we're led to believe?
Nick KorteNick and John share their So I think the glamour comes from exactly what you just said, the advertisement of the culture. And in advertising the culture, you tend to see, all right, here's what our offices look like, and here's this cool layout, and people can get free snacks and free food. And yeah, there's definitely some of that. I will tell you though, in a, in a very world that's gone through a pandemic not that long ago, a lot of companies are cutting some of those costs down and maybe not glamorizing as much. Sure, they still want to have good values, they still want to have a good culture, but some of the amenities might have been reduced in favor of cost savings and not having to let people go, for example. So from working for a technology company specifically, it's amazing how much you can learn about the innovations being done at your company when you work at a technology company. To me, that is extremely exciting. If you believe in the product, you believe that it can solve the problems, the company sets out to do it, you work with great people, and for a great manager who owns the team culture, by the way, we talked about that when you were on Nerd Journey, then I think you can absolutely flourish there. But don't think that just because I work for a tech company, it's the end-all be-all of any job. It could be, you could get to somewhere that's a horrible culture. And you didn't ask enough questions in the interview process to find out. So is it, is it what it's advertised to be? I think in a lot of cases, it can be that. But I think that some of that is a little bit of good marketing.
John WhiteIt's something that I've learned in the past few years is what that was really all designed to be, right? And I mean, I'll say right up front that I learned this from Leanne. And that is the idea of this great in-office culture and all these amenities kind of Mimicking, I think originally maybe the ur-example is Bell Labs, AT&T Bell Labs. And there's a fairly famous book called The Idea Factory, which I ended up reading, which really talked about, I think some of the things that were mentioned there, I think it was in this book, was just the collisions that went on when you had different people working in different parts of the company, But the physical layout of the organization was such that you had to kind of come out into a common space and interact with people who were not part of your lab team or what it is that you were working on. And so that got kind of dumbed down to, well, we're going to have ping pong tables or beanbag chairs. Kind of not understanding like what the— what part of that, you know, was the, the cause of innovation. And that was having people, really smart people, really skilled people in different parts of the technology organization, you know, kind of colliding and having conversations and, and learning things and then saying, oh, we have this technique in our part of the industry that does this, maybe you could apply it to that, and then coming up with an innovative solution. And that's the source of innovation. So I think the company that I've worked at that was best at that was Google, where they— it's again the example, and it's been marketed with film and movies. But when I worked at Google, I actually did go into the office 4 or 5 times a week, have breakfast and lunch and sometimes dinner with my colleagues on the campus, and we would run into other teams, other parts of the business, have coffee with them, have lunch with them, learn what they were doing, hear about the problems that they had, explain the problems that we were having. And sometimes that really cause some exciting things to happen. Oh, we've actually solved that problem before. Here's how we did it. Oh, we've run into a problem similar to that, and here's the approach that we used. I don't know if that's appropriate for you to use, but you might want to think about it and take the best parts of what it is that we did and apply it to the problem that you're working on. So some of it is marketing, and some of it actually does work. The question that you have to kind of figure out is what part of that is actually being executed at the company that you happen to be interviewing at. If they have cool benefits and things like that, what is the goal of those benefits? Is it to drive innovation by having people have these really interesting collisions in the work environment leading to innovation, or are they kind of doing it blindly and not understanding what the point of all of this was?
Nick KorteDon't think that you can't find a great culture on your team within your company by doing technology work at any company. It doesn't have to be a tech company. Like, there, there are companies who do not have a focus on a technology product as their output, that have wonderful cultures. And people have left technology companies to go to those cultures, because they wanted to be a part of it. So the culture can be great, because the organization is doing it right. as John said, doing things for the right reasons and teaching their leaders to create that culture independent of whether it's the tech industry. I think we see the big conferences, the product announcements, and people up on stage speaking, and that's where some of this clamor comes from. And then you see the ritzy offices and whatnot. And that's, that's what creates that perception.
John WhiteYeah, technical work is being done at every single company in the world. There is no company that doesn't have, you know, a technical component to it. Every company uses software. Maybe not every company is developing their own software in-house, but they're, they're using it and they're using it on a technical platform. So if you're interested in technology, you know, from, uh, from an operations point of view, you can really work for every company. Uh, large companies have large technology footprints, so you don't need to work, um, at an Amazon or Google or Netflix in order to, to do really good technical work. And, um, you really have the universe of all organizations out there to find a good culture.
Al ElliottThe tech industry is known for rapid pace of change. Today's hot skills like machine learning might be obsolete tomorrow. So how can you ensure your tech career has staying power? Our guests offer some strategies for remaining relevant in this fast-moving field.
John WhiteAnother thing that I learned about, you know, thinking in bets, right? It's never a yes/no, it's always a what percentage chance. And there's a book, Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke, who is a professional poker player. I'm giving a little bit of background before I give my answer. And she said, in poker, you're probably never more than 60% sure of any information that you don't have. So with a maximum of 60% surety, I mean, I would say I'm at 51 or 52% sure that it is a big thing. There's real problems being solved today. by the technology. Is it going to be revolutionary? It might be. It very well might be. Or it might be revolutionary the way that Google searches were revolutionary, and it's just another tool in your toolbox that you have to know how to do in order to do your job better, no matter what your job is. So Did the fact that there are really good Google searches and really good answers, the ability to find really good answers to things on the internet, did that remove some jobs or cause people to lose jobs? I mean, maybe, right? But it also enabled many, many more jobs and a lot of innovation because information was more accessible. So I think that Generative AI has a chance to do that. Here's a joke that I tell. Already people are losing their jobs, and the number one job that's already been lost to generative AI is prompt engineering, which is how to write really good generative AI prompts. Because what's the first thing that you would do? Ask a generative AI like Chatbot, how do I write Here's what the information I'm looking for. How do I, you know, express that as a prompt better? So anybody who positioned themselves as a, you know, prompt engineer probably is, uh, is looking for a different job right now.
Nick KorteTake generative AI. As John said, maybe I, I don't have a deep expertise in data science, and I don't understand maybe the, the deep innards of how train a model and all that stuff. But I can structure the projects I work on in my professional development so that I kind of step into that area so that it includes some piece of generative AI, right? Maybe I use that— for me, I like to use it in trying to figure out what, what to title the podcast that's coming out the next week. Here are my show notes. What are the major themes from this that you saw? Let's see if it's what I picked. And then based on those, what's a good title? And I'll use that to kind of help give me a measuring stick. But like, I think what I'm saying is generative AI, I think of it as a system. There is a system that needs to support that for my organization. That system needs cybersecurity. It needs compliance policies and ethics on how to use it. It needs probably maybe underlying infrastructure that goes with it. So I think that a lot of the other technologies that people know, they can still know those and apply them and work with that new technology in some This is how I would encourage someone— let's say I focus on virtualization today, and I don't know that much about networking. I can go and I can start to talk to the people in network engineering about how what I'm doing could help them or hurt them and start to learn a little bit about that. And I can continue to learn more, and it makes me broader across the stack. So that I've generated this breadth of knowledge across the technology landscape. And that way, if I then need to go deep in an area, it's not just so new that I am 5 levels away from any kind of competency and general understanding. That is how I would do it. How can I tinker with something that would include this new tech for a little while? Is there some personal project or project at work where I could use this? How can I get the double checkmark of accomplishing what I need to accomplish at work, or as a passion project, but still include this other thing that would be beneficial for me to know? That's how I always try to It doesn't always mean I do it or do it well, but that's how I would think about it.
Al ElliottNick and John co-host one of the most popular tech podcasts and have hundreds of guests from tech. So we had to ask them for their favorite conversations.
Leanne ElliottI mean, you've spoken to hundreds of guests over the years you've had the podcast. I'm curious who stands out or what What nugget of advice stands out for you over all those conversations that you'd want to share with somebody listening today? Nick, can I start with you?
Nick KorteSome of my favorite conversations are with people who went into the tech industry and reached this role of the principal engineer, like the highest-level individual contributor that you can get to. So, they're making a huge impact. in their organization at a large scope. Recently, a conversation with Max Cannatt-Alexander just keeps replaying in my mind. He was talking about how as you gain expertise and move up in seniority as an individual contributor, you want to be a principal engineer, you should only do the work that only you can do and be careful of getting into those areas that maybe where you should let someone else answer the question, even if you know the answer. So this focusing on what is the unique value I'm providing to the organization in my role and trying to be pretty disciplined about it. But he also talked about you don't want to work on a project forever. And when he starts working on a project that's going to take a lot of time, he immediately starts to think about how can he hand this off. Like, that's one of the first things he thinks about when he starts a new project. How am I going to hand this off once we get it to a certain point so that I don't have to do it forever? I don't have to wean this baby for the rest of my life, right? I can let it grow and give it to someone else. Those stand out. And I think just the, the overall focus on building that body of work that makes you stand out from other people. That is one of the most common themes of everyone on the show who's done something to stand out amongst the rest from a job applicant perspective. So trying to do that little bit extra in documenting your work, making sure it's publicly referenceable, those are the things that stand out to me. And I'm sure there's hundreds more, but those are the ones that are ringing in my head right now.
John WhiteI mean, I'll tag on to what Nick said about making sure that the work that you do is publicly accessible and documented. I think eventually I came around to a book called Show Your Work by— the author's name is Austin Kleon, K-L-E-O-N. He also wrote Steal Like an Artist, 2 really short books that have very tight points. You can probably Wikipedia the actual points, but the The books are worth reading or listening to. And I think it really digests a lot of the advice that our guests have had about blogging or doing YouTube videos or running communities to really, I think, again, doubling down on Nick's advice to show the work that you've done, to document it in a way that you can share with a potential employer or maybe somebody that you're going to start a new business with. They're evaluating you to be a co-founder or something like that. If you have this body of work that you can point to that's publicly accessible, you're just much more desirable and more easily evaluated. You're a much more known commodity and therefore a lower risk.
Nick KorteI can't believe I almost forgot to say this, but so many people, regardless of the job you do today, you have skills that are relatable and useful in other disciplines and domains. So if you're someone who's thinking about working in a job that is technology-focused at whatever company, you may already possess some of the skill sets needed to do that job. But you have to have dissected and documented the skills that you have, and then talk to other people and read job descriptions about how those apply to the other areas. I see this so many times when we interview somebody like this person did this thing in their career. And it was relatable experience that helped them do something else later. It's been a pattern we've seen so many times, and you may not see it at the time you gain this experience back here. But think of every experience you have. I don't care if it's working fast food, working at Starbucks, working, you know, as a, as a waiter, waitress, anything. You could have learned skills in that job that can be useful to you in the next one in whatever industry it happens to be.
John WhiteNick and I think about these things in patterns, right? And then maybe we'll point to a specific person who's mentioned the pattern. And the pattern that I see is that I'm thinking about right now is technology waves. So there was a wave maybe 15 years ago in virtualization. And if you know or don't know about that, that doesn't matter. It was a technology wave. And then there's a wave called cloud computing, which you might or might not know about. And here's another wave coming on. Well, there's a wave called blockchain that seems to have fizzled out, but there's another wave called generative artificial intelligence. Your ChatGPTs or your Claudes or what have you. And we had 2 guests who kind of mentioned that. Joe Hughes was I think the later one that I could point to, and that's H-O-U-G-H-E-S, I think. And the early one was Mani Sidhu, S-I-D-H-U. And they both talked about Technology waves, many especially really emphasize that point of trying to figure out early on in a technology wave, is this something that I can bet my career on and is it going to be big? And you really have to bet, you know, if you're going to make a big bet on your career, you better be sure that this is going to be important. It better be solving a problem that, you know, is fairly widespread or you're going to end up being Yeah. The specialist in something that nobody really cares about. So both of those guests talked about that technology wave, identifying something, trying to understand whether there's a real problem to be solved, and then going all in if you're pretty sure to be an early specialist who's documenting your work and And get some mindshare, you know, out there. And then you're very employable if, if that, if that wave, uh, ends up cresting very, very high.
Leanne ElliottAs Al would say, there you have it, your ultimate guide to finding a job in tech with some bonus tips for hiring managers. Nick and John's podcast is just brilliant. So if you have enjoyed listening to them today, here's where to hear more from them.
Nick KorteYou can find us at nerd-journey.com, email us nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com, and across all major listening platforms. We'd love to hear from you, and we're always looking for good guests. If you have a career story that touches the technology field, since we are all about career advice for the technology professional.
Leanne ElliottThat is all for today.
Al ElliottA quick reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organizations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then every Thursday we bring you an amazing guest with a great story And if you prefer the latest news or an Agony Aunt segment, then tune in on Tuesdays where we'll bring you more of our weekly news roundup, a brand new segment called Hot Takes with our experts, workplace experts. Remember, I couldn't get that right before. And of course, our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYes. In the meantime, um, we've got lots of episodes you can listen back to. Do make sure you check out the Hot Takes from Phil Agnew and Sonia Thompson we've had over the last couple of weeks. They're very, very interesting. Very good. One on hard work, one on inclusion. Some may say controversial.
Al ElliottUm, that's why they're called hot takes.
Leanne ElliottIt's why they're called hot takes.
Al ElliottIt'd be boring if they weren't.
Leanne ElliottIt'd be a cold take.
Al ElliottIt'd be a cold take. If you like tepid takes, then tune in next week where we will give you something that's really obvious and won't really inspire you. Sorry, carry on with your hot take.
Leanne ElliottI was done anyway. If you could subscribe on whatever platform you listen or watch the show on, that would be incredible. It really is a best way to support the show and to enable us to keep bringing you more content and more great interviews like that from Nick and John.
Al ElliottAnd of course, it'd be really lovely if you went and found Nick and John on their platform and just like LinkedIn— I'm sure there's loads of links in the show notes— go find them and tell them you listened to them on our pod and you really enjoyed it, because it really means a lot to us podcasters. We tend to do a lot of stuff just sort of like one-way medium, so it's really nice when we get a little bit of feedback.
Leanne ElliottWe will see you on Tuesday. For another episode of This Week in Work, and next Thursday we bring you another great conversation. I can't remember who it's with, but it's good.
Al ElliottIt's whoever it is; it's going to be good. We'll see you next week. Bye bye bye bye.
Leanne ElliottIf you are ready to.
Al ElliottThat was in Morse code, Lee.
Leanne ElliottThat was Morse code for decode. Could make a person more opal.
Al ElliottUm, made to make your mouth water.
Leanne ElliottFun fact, I was listening to Adam Grant, and I can't remember if I told John in, um, Nick This, but people who— this isn't a podcast, I'm just telling you— people who, um—
Al ElliottIt's fine, just use that recording time.
Leanne ElliottManagers that use brain teasers in interviews scored higher, um, on sadism.
Al ElliottOh, that doesn't surprise me at all.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah, there you go.