Episode 313 · 25 June 2026 · 51:36
"I told Jimmy Carr to quit his job", with Mike Harle, Jimmy Carr's (last ever) manager
Featuring Mike Harle
"I told Jimmy Carr to quit his job", with Mike Harle, Jimmy Carr's (last ever) manager
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The Jimmy Carr story on Diary of a CEO
Mike's intro — Shell, the priesthood, and beyond
interview#shell#priesthood#career transition
The nervous 24-year-old in Mike's office
Breaking corporate boundaries — the friendship that formed
The two-minute conversation that changed British comedy
"I wanted to do the best by a human being"
interview#leadership#humanity#manager
Priesthood, spirituality, and shared values
interview#priesthood#spirituality#values
Manager vs leader — and creating meaning for others
Life after Shell — grief, asylum seekers, and a new calling
interview#grief#asylum seekers#calling
Managing potential over performance
interview#potential#performance#management
Show notes
"I told Jimmy Carr to quit his job" — with Mike Harle, Jimmy Carr's (last ever) manager
Guest: Mike Harle — former UK Chief Marketing Officer at Shell (32 years), former Church of England priest, lecturer in the Czech Republic, and the man who told a nervous junior exec named Jimmy Carr to quit his day job.
What do you do when a brilliant Oxford graduate walks into your office, chronically late, completely uncommitted to the business, but undeniably sharp? If you're Mike Harle, you don't fire them — you tell them to follow their heart and join the circus.
In this world-first public interview, Mike sits down with Al and Leanne to tell the real story behind one of comedy's most famous career pivots. Around the year 2000, in a legendary two-minute conversation, Mike looked past the corporate KPIs of a young, nervous Shell employee named Jimmy Carr — who was torn between a high-octane job offer at Boston Consulting Group (BCG) and performing stand-up in local pubs — and gave him the ultimate piece of career advice: do give up your day job.
They dig into the fine line between managing and leading, why Mike turned down exclusive UK distribution rights for a struggling new startup called Red Bull, and what it truly means to manage potential over performance.
Top 3 Takeaways
Leadership is about meaning, not metrics. Management is resources and objectives; leadership is helping people find deep, individual meaning in their work. Work out which one you actually want to do.
Manage potential, not just performance. There's no potential without performance — you've got to perform first. But if performance is good and value is being realized, the job is spotting where someone's real future lies, even if it's not with you.
Take a chance on people. If you can't take a chance on someone at 24 or 25, you're sunk. Mike's job wasn't just to manage a pipeline — it was to do the best by a human being.
More From Mike Harle
(No external links were provided for Mike in the raw notes — connect with him via the show's channels below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Mike HarleSo I'm working for Shell and then I kind of figured out, look, I'm not happy here. I was kind of low energy. I was not the funny guy in the office. I was just like, ah, this is bullshit. I had a boss there, a guy called Mike Harle, who I recently kind of got back in touch with a little bit. So I went and did like the McKinsey Boston Consulting interviews. So I was like, I said to my boss, Mike, I said, look, I'm going to go and try and get a job at one of these things. And he sat me down in his office and just went, No, I can't see it. I can't see it. Just, you're just gonna have the same problem somewhere else. I just don't see it. And that was kind of enough. It was enough that he saw me as like a funny, nice guy. I just went, yeah, this isn't for you. You're in the wrong stream.
Al ElliottThat's Jimmy Carr talking to Stephen Bartlett on Diary of a CEO a few years ago. And the boss Jimmy is talking about, well, we tracked him down. Mike Harle spent 32 years at Shell, ended up as their UK CMO, and today he's telling his story about Jimmy Carr publicly for the very first time.
Leanne ElliottIn case you're one of the tiny minority who don't know who Jimmy Carr is, he is one of the UK's best-known comics and is renowned for his sharp takedowns, late-night humor, and more recently, his thoughts on leading a fulfilled life. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al and I'm a business owner, and we're co-founders of people and culture consultancy Oblong, and together we help you simplify the science of work.
Leanne ElliottMike Harle spent 32 years at Shell, rising to become their UK Chief Marketing Officer. He's also been a priest, worked with asylum seekers, and is now teaching in the Czech Republic.
Al ElliottBut what Mike is most known for is a 2-minute conversation in That employee was Jimmy Carr.
Leanne ElliottToday we find out what Mike saw that others missed, why great managers sometimes tell their best people to leave, and what it actually takes to unlock someone's potential. So let's join Mike and Al after this very short break.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams, 4 departments, and 3 different systems. and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Mike HarleNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Mike HarleI'm Mike Harle. I had a career at Shell in marketing. I have been a priest for 10 years. I have worked extensively with asylum seekers, supporting them one-to-one in England, and most recently branched into English teaching and mentoring here in the Czech Republic. I've also worked with disadvantaged women in housing projects. I've visited all 92 football leagues grounds, and I've done a kind of million other things. So that's some of the things that I've done. But what am I famous for, you asked? Well, famous is kind of a thing, but I suppose, you know, Al, sometimes we have people at work that play in a rock band in the evenings, or they like cracking a joke. And you kind of say to them, yeah, it's great, but don't give up your day job. Yeah, so we had a guy at Shell called Jimmy Carr, and I said to him, do give up your day job. So I was the guy who advised Jimmy to go into comedy, and I guess that's what I'm famous for.
Al ElliottFabulous. I mean, this is— that's one of the best ones we've ever had. I tell you what, Jimmy seems to be doing all right these days, so clearly it was the right decision.
Mike HarleYeah, I mean, I think he's done obviously astoundingly well. And it's hard to relate to that kind of nervous early 20s guy that I spoke to on that day. But yeah, I mean, it gives me great joy to see that.
Al ElliottWell, we're going to come back to the nervous early 20s guy in a second. Sure. Before we talk about Jimmy Carr, we want to talk a little bit about you. So tell us, you were at Shell. What year are we? Give us the timeline when you were at Shell and when you started and when you finished.
Mike HarleYeah, I started in 1976.
Leanne ElliottI kind of joined Shell from I went to—
Mike Harlehad a good education in Newcastle, went to grammar school. I joined Shell though instead of going to university. They sponsored me through a degree course in business and later through an MBA at Manchester. So they were great to me and helped me find my feet after some really horrendous exam results, you know, back at school. I was great at 2 things at school. I was brilliant on the flute and swam, you know, like really like a fish. Apart from that, the rest of it kind of passed me by. me by. So I was really pleased to get the opportunity with Shell. That was 1976, and I finally left Shell in 2008. So gosh, that sounds like a 32-year career at Shell. My big break, if you put it that way, was getting the job of marketing manager for the UK, which happened in about 1994. Through to about 2002. So I did that job for maybe 8 years or so. So in contemporary parlance, you would say I was the CMO of Shell in the UK. And that was a big deal. That was to do with petrol prices. It was to do with shops. It was to do with loyalty programs. I was responsible for the brand in the UK, blah, blah, blah. It was a big job. I was thrilled to get it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Mike HarleAnd, uh, you know, love doing it and working alongside some very talented, uh, people, you know, particularly young people and developing a talent pool. So, uh, that's the kind of time frame that we're talking about. Uh, Jimmy was towards the back end of that, sort of '98 to 2000. Uh, Jimmy left at the beginning of 2000.
Al ElliottOkay, so let's go into the beginning of Jimmy's career. So you said I don't think you used the word awkward. I think you said, was it, what was the phrase, the way you described him as something 21-year-old?
Mike HarleProbably nervous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Al ElliottSo nervous 21-year-old. I have seen pictures of him when he was a teenager and he's definitely changed his image slightly since then. Yeah. He joined, did he join directly on your team?
Mike HarleHe did actually. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, back in those days, Al, joining Shell from Oxford or Cambridge, I mean, Jimmy was from Cambridge University, was kind of, you know, like the best thing that you could do. May not be so now, I don't know, but it was good enough for Liz Truss. She joined from Oxford. So did William Hague. So there was a kind of pattern. I mean, you wouldn't have thought William Hague, Liz Truss, and Jimmy Carr had much in common, but they all joined Shell from Oxbridge. So there was a kind of pattern and a flow to that. And there was a central recruitment body in Shell Centre, and they were in touch with me and said, Mike, we've got this bloke for you. Um, uh, you know, we think marketing would be a good place for him to kind of start. Would he come and, uh, or can he come over and see you? So we did that. And, uh, you know, on that, maybe 1998 sometime, you know, Jimmy Carr walked in my office for the first time. And, you know, I said nervous. I mean, I would say that Jimmy kind of was struggling with the reality of what he'd just done. Like, why am I here? You know, how have I ended up, you know, in this place doing this kind of job? So I think even in that first meeting, he expressed some, some, you know, confusion about that. And yeah, it was kind of strange. He was nervous. He was apprehensive. He was trying to say the right things, but it wasn't quite coming out brilliantly. So yeah, I gave him a job in marketing and sort of helped him along through that over the next couple of years. But he was hesitant and there was a sense that, yeah, am I a fish out of water here? Jimmy had a very loose connection with the reality of working life. What you'd expect from a keen young graduate is polished shoes, a good suit. Now, Jimmy always had a good suit on, but he was quite frequently 3 hours late if he came in at all, particularly towards the end. So it was like kind of we had to be a little bit grateful that he was there at all. So he was Inconsistent, lacking in commitment, but a great person to have around the office because people liked him. And in particular, he and I— I mean, this was a marketing hierarchy. There were 2 managers between him and me. So really, I shouldn't have been talking to him apart from his annual review, but I liked him. He liked me. We grew a connection.
Al ElliottYeah.
Mike HarleAnd we used to go for a coffee together, go for a beer together, and developed a kind of friendship, which was pretty special. So he was, yeah, remained a fish out of water, I think you could say. But likable, great to have around the office, but didn't throw himself into the work of understanding UK motorists and their consumer buying habits. I think it's fair to say.
Al ElliottYour job was to ensure that you've got a great team to hit your marketing goals. You've just described him as sometimes not coming in, sometimes coming late, not really doing, doing a great deal. So why did you keep him around? You said you liked him personally, but from a professional point of view, should you not have just got rid of him in like week 4?
Mike HarleWell, I don't know. I suppose week 4, we were still trying to work out, you know, whether, whether this pattern would become more consistent or not, or whether he was We just put him in the wrong job. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, I can't say the thought didn't cross our minds, but he was great fun to be around. I want to talk a bit more about that relationship that he and I had, which was unconventional because normally there would be other intervening managers who would handle Jimmy, but they didn't know what to do with him either. So he and I used to, as I say, go for coffees or go for a beer. At that time, I was going through some significant difficulties of my own. You know, my wife had a terminal illness. I had a young son. You know, things were really tough for me. And he was finding his way. So he, you know, at those coffees, he used to share, you know, his doubts. There was a vulnerability there, you know. On both sides. And sometimes I use the analogy of the water level on the iceberg, you know, and the lower the water level gets because of circumstances, the more of the iceberg you see. And the water level between me and Jimmy got very low. So there was a lot of, you know, who we were as human beings on show to each other. So there was a shared vulnerability and a willingness to kind of exchange at a deeper level than— Yeah. Just, you know, manager and kind of subordinate, to use an old-fashioned phrase. So we used to talk about pretty much everything. We'd— his— I mean, he was struggling to find a girlfriend at that time. We would talk about that type of stuff. My wife's condition, you name it. It was great. It was all up for grabs. And yeah, so In a sense, it was natural for him to be talking to me about his options for the future.
Al ElliottI think in one of Jimmy's books, I think he mentioned he didn't know his dad, and he just knew— he'd just known his mum, or his dad wasn't on the scene. I remember that. So, do you think that you were kind of a proxy father figure to him, perhaps? Or is that a bit too obvious a question?
Mike HarleI don't know. I can't really answer that, except to say that, yes, he had a difficult relationship with his dad, and I think he's documented that pretty well in his book. About 18 months ago, Before and After, in which he talks about these episodes very openly, and I may say very accurately. So I think I was the right person to give him advice at that time, and I'm not sure he had anyone else. Let's put it like that. So it was kind of me that he came to for the big life advice at that particular moment. There was a respect, there was But I was kind of more than his boss. I mean, I suppose he could, in retrospect, say, was it an example of my weak boundary management in terms of, yeah. But I don't, you know, life felt too short for all that.
Al ElliottLet me talk about this boundary because I don't think there are many junior execs in Shell today who go for a beer with the CMO.
Mike HarleI think it started when we discovered we had shared interests. He was very interested in music and the entertainment world. In my earlier days, I'd said that I'd been very good on the flute. I'd done quite a few West End shows, Starlight Express, that type of thing, playing the flute as a sort of semi-pro musician. He was really interested in that world. My brother was a professional musician who was about the time that I was with Jimmy. My brother was recording a major album with Elvis Costello, and he'd just finished working with Paul McCartney. So I was meeting Elvis Costello, hanging out with Level 42, that sort of thing. Jimmy loved all that. He loved hearing about that, and he engaged with that entertainment side. That's not a normal thing for a boss and a subordinate, junior guy to talk about, but we found there was a connection. I remember I think he worked, or a mate of his worked at Our Price Records, you know, on Piccadilly Circus, and had one of my heroes, Tony Bennett, the Frank Sinatra equivalent singer, going there. And Jimmy got me Tony Bennett's autograph on a CD, which I was pretty thrilled about. So he was kind of up for that sort of thing as well. So yeah, he liked talking about entertainment. He related to me and the world that I was inhabiting outside of Shell.
Al ElliottSo was there a sign even early on that he was destined for other things?
Mike HarleWell, there was certainly a sign he wasn't destined for Shell. You know, there are plenty of those. I think he got curious. You know, one of the things that I most value about people is curiosity, you know, and it's your curiosity that's the reason I'm on this podcast now. So I really value curiosity in people. And Jimmy was curious about what it would look like if he tried stand-up comedy. You know, would it work? Did it matter if it didn't? Could it lead to something? You know, these were the kind of questions that he was asking at that time. So yeah, it was early signs. Early signs of him looking outside the standard, you know, world of business. And I think it's great that someone at 24, 25 can quickly realize that this life isn't for them. You know, I mean, I get people who are 55 and have spent the last 30 years in a kind of simmering disappointment because they've been doing something that wasn't their passion. And if you can't take a chance at 24, 25 on your future, you're sunk. And Jimmy was of a mind to take a chance, you know? And some might say he had very little to lose, but he did have a great, you know, a job at Shell, and he could have made a future out of it if he'd been so minded.
Al ElliottI've heard someone say that clever people are sometimes funny, but funny people are always very clever. And so, did you sense that, regardless of Oxbridge, you sensed that he was sharp?
Mike HarleAbsolutely. I think Jimmy was then, and remains, you know, a thinker. You know, you just read the kind of people that he likes knocking about with these days. You know? Jimmy is a thinker. He thinks deeply about things. And at that point in time, he was thinking deeply about his future. It wasn't a casual thing. You know, it was kind of, this is a major life decision that I'm about to take, or that I could take, the option in front of me. So, he had an innate intelligence, a sharpness, a wit. I mean, of course, you know, in most offices, there are lots of funny guys or girls around. And Jimmy was one of those, maybe a bit above the average.
Al ElliottYeah.
Mike HarleBut it was still a significant leap of faith to be talking about going and doing a gig in a pub.
Al ElliottWell, let's get into that. So that's the moment. So I believe I've written down here, 1998 to around 2000. 2000 was the time that you must have had the conversation with him about this. So how did it start? Did he start it? Did you start it?
Mike HarleJimmy came to me and said, hey, Mike, you know, can I pop in your office for, you know, half an hour later on today? And just talk about something? And I said, of course, feel free, 2 o'clock. So there he is. I'm in the CMO office there. And Jimmy came in, sat down, and I kind of remember that what he was saying was, I've got a great opportunity here in front of me, Mike, and I don't quite know which way to go. He said, I've just been offered a job with Boston Consulting Group.
Al ElliottBCG.
Mike HarleBig name then, probably a massive name now. It was, you know, McKinsey, BCG. This was kind of the place to go. And he said, I'm thinking about taking it and leaving, you know, what do you think? And I said, I'm not sure your heart's in business, Jimmy. You know, I mean, isn't it just more of the same? Isn't it just a high-octane version of what you don't like now? You know, where you're going to be under more pressure, where the expectations are going to be higher, and your heart's not going to be in it. I said, it's flattering. Of course it is. Everyone likes to be approached by companies like that, you know. But I said, so How are the gigs going? I think at that stage he'd done maybe one or two, you know, in a pub, probably near his home in High Wycombe or something like that, you know. He said, you know, okay, quite encouraging. He said, it's, it's hard finding the material, you know, and I don't know if I'm, uh, you know, but, you know, I got a reasonable reaction, so I'm gonna do more. I Bugger it. Do that, Jimmy. That's where your heart is. That's where your passion is. That's what you want to do. That's where you want to be. I said, why not go flat out for comedy and really see if you can make it? You know, it'll be a lot of hard work. And he was never afraid of hard work in areas that he was passionate about. I also came from a family— I mentioned my brother was a musician, but I come from a family that's in the entertainment and media business, essentially. So these kind of jobs weren't necessarily for somebody else. They were for us. And so it didn't seem that bizarre suggesting someone go into comedy. as a branch of entertainment. And that bit of advice was the thing that made Jimmy take the left fork in the road, as he's acknowledged countless times subsequently. So it felt like a really, really important moment. And I'm glad I advised him to follow his heart and not his head.
Al ElliottWas it an immediate thing? You said, Jimmy, I think you should go and— you should not take the BCG gig, you should go and pursue comedy, and he went, cool, next day, I'm off. Or did it take a little time for it to percolate?
Mike HarleI don't think it took long, Al. Um, my memory is that he might have slept on it, or we talked the next day, but it immediately felt right to him. And it was the right moment to have heard that from the right person. So everything clicked into place. And I set into process with our human resources people that Jimmy would make an exit. He got paid some money for exiting on a voluntary redundancy scheme, which I think still amuses him to this day, that he got voluntary redundancy for leaving a job that he couldn't stand. But, uh, yeah, he was, uh, quick onto it. And, you know, the evening gigs were ramping up and Jimmy was getting more and more active. It was, uh, it was a pretty immediate reaction. And I think probably within a couple of months, January 2000, he was gone. And I remember I think I moved on maybe, or I was out of reach for some reason. But on the day that he left, he wrote me a charming letter, really nice letter, thanking me for what I'd done, for the things that I'd said, for being the right person at the right time for him. And I remember his closing sentence, Al, which was, so So, Mike, I'm off to join the circus. I'm off to join the circus. Cheers, Jimmy. And, uh, that's what he did. So no great deliberation, no BCG. Jimmy was off to join the circus, and he's still there.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI've got that. Keep that in. Most managers would never do something you've done there because they'd either want to keep someone like Jimmy because even though they weren't great at the job, they were still like, obviously, you know, people liked them around the office.
Mike HarleSure.
Al ElliottOr there's perhaps a little bit of professional jealousy going, well, I'm going to stick here in Shell and you're going to go off and do an exciting, like you're going to be a comedian. What made you put Jimmy's career first over what you actually needed as a manager?
Mike HarleI wanted to do the best by a human being. I think as a manager, and as a person, as a leader, I always had a high regard for everyone's humanity and the dignity with which we deal with them at work. And that's why, as I mentioned earlier, I've been working with asylum seekers, why I work with software developers now here in the Czech Republic, why I worked with all sorts of people, because I believe in the equality and humanity of all people. And I believe that they need to be dealt with with dignity and with agency in their own situation. And I think that's what I was doing for Jimmy. His road at Shell had come to an end, but I wanted the best for him as a person, even if I took a little bit of a knock for, you know, how did you let that slip through your hands, Mike? Or, you know, what the hell have you advised Jimmy to do here? I was prepared to take that hit. I was the best marketer they had.
Al ElliottWhere's this come from, this belief that everyone should be happy at work, where everyone should be treated with dignity? Where's that come from?
Mike HarleI think it comes from— it came from my dad, probably. I mean, at the end of the day, most things do, or a lot of things can. So my dad was a socialist, in his early days, a communist. He was strong on doing the right thing by people. He managed in later years a furniture manufacturing company in the northeast of England with a few thousand employees. And he was great with the unions because he wasn't trying to screw them. He was trying to get fairness in employment with the people that worked for him and that were committed to him. So I think that was ingrained in me from a very, very early age. And through my own political principles, my own spirituality as well, doing the right thing by people, wanting individuals to flourish, to me was an important element of leadership. And I think nothing that's happened subsequently has changed my mind on that. I still think that's what makes a great leader, if the people around them flourish. You know?
Al ElliottYou later became a priest for a while.
Mike HarleYeah.
Al ElliottAnd if I remember correctly, that was one of the possibilities of early Jimmy, was to become a priest. Did you ever talk about that kind of thing?
Mike HarleHe had a sort of gentle Roman Catholic spirituality. Mine was Protestant, Church of England. But I suppose we did touch on it. And I seem to remember that his mother was quite a committed Roman Catholic. So it was something that he didn't dismiss. It was something that was real to him. But if you like, my own excursion into the church, which lasted 10 years, was something that happened later on when eventually I became bereaved and was struggling with the whole issue of how to raise a child on my own, how to embed ourselves in a community, and how to, if you like, share what I'd learned from my—
Al ElliottYeah.
Mike Harletough experiences with other people and help them through all sorts of difficult situations— old age, infirmity, suicide, bereavement, mental illness, etc. And to me, that's what being a priest in the community was about. So that was a really sort of— felt like quite a fruitful time. I also later on, after a number of years alone, met my second wife through it. So that was kind of an added advantage. Yeah.
Al ElliottWas there anyone else in your career that you managed or worked with that you've done something similar and encouraged them to go in a different direction?
Mike HarleYeah, that's a good question. Working with— I mean, I've always had those projects going on with people. I've always had those kind of mentoring relationships. There's a guy that I'm supporting now back in Bournemouth who is a Cameroonian asylum seeker who's just got permission to remain in the UK, and I'm trying to help him launch his football career. So that's an example of someone who I'm trying to find a way of helping him unleash his talent. I'm also working here in Brno with a very talented marketing consultant who's working on truth and reconciliation projects between the historic conflicts between Czech and German people. A really, really talented woman. So, you know, and there are a string of other people like that where I think, yeah, I love their energy. I see their heart. I can help them, if you like, take away some of what I would call self-limiting beliefs about what's possible. And, you know, that phrase self-limiting belief is, I suppose, what I took away from Jimmy Carr.
Al ElliottSo you did your MBA, you've obviously learned the academic side of management, and then in your 32 years at Shell, you learned the actual practical side of it. So if someone's listening and like, I want to be a great manager like Mike, what, how, where do they start? Do they need to do the academic stuff as well?
Mike HarleI can't say whether everyone should do an MBA or not, but I can say for me, it opened up a world that I didn't know existed. So up until that point, I'd been marketing this, marketing that in Shell. I kind of understood how it worked, market research, product development, diddle. But as I moved and saw the potential for leadership positions, I needed more of a framework other than being just suddenly made a boss who was dealing with people in the best way that he or she could, I needed a kind of theoretical framework. I needed some ideas to pin that on that would help me understand what I was doing and how to get the best out of people. So for me, doing an academic qualification at a good business school, not any business school, but a good one, where there was a real freedom to explore ideas, in particular organizational culture and leadership in my case, and to read widely on the subject. I mean, I was reading people like Ed Shein, Linda Smircich, and Gareth Morgan at the time. And that was kind of taking the scales off my eyes in terms of what was possible. So I can't recommend that for everybody, but for me, it was a breakthrough, uh, 3 years.
Al ElliottWhat advice would you give to someone who's perhaps a younger manager who does want to, to rise up the ranks you've done, but also do it in a nice, steady, respectful way?
Mike HarleWork out whether you want to be a manager or a leader. You know, when I think of management, Al, I think of someone that gives people objectives, that prioritizes, that allocates resources, that monitors progress, that reports, that this kind of stuff. To me, that's the work of management. And we've all got to do that stuff. A leader is something different. A leader is someone, in my book, that—
Al ElliottYeah.
Mike HarleIt helps individuals and teams create meaning in their work so that what they're doing has an importance and a relevance to them and maybe even beyond them, that they find meaning in what they're doing. They find a validation, they find a purpose that overrides progress through the ranks or a salary increase or good feedback from the boss.
Al ElliottYeah.
Mike HarleSo to me, work out whether you want to be a manager or a leader. If you want to be a manager, then great. There are lots of courses you can go on that will teach you that sort of stuff. If you want to be a leader, you've got to think more widely than just being a manager. You've got to read more widely. You've got to study more widely. You've got to work out who you're trying to be. Who are your role models?
Al ElliottYeah.
Mike HarleAnd how you're going to go about developing the skills to create meaning for other people.
Al ElliottCan you tell me more about developing meaning for other people? I don't think a lot of people understand exactly how you go about doing that.
Mike HarlePeople talk about, you know, that an individual's objectives have got to overlap with an organization's, and if there's a good fit, and, you know, so on and so forth. I think it's about bringing it back to people and saying, okay, how is what we're doing here, even if it's understanding the UK motorist, how is that helping you grow as a person? You know, how is that helping you develop intellectually? How is it helping you get more creative, maybe in the way that you segment markets or collect data about consumers?
Al ElliottYeah.
Mike HarleOr develop relevant products? How's it helping you get more creative? How's it giving you a spring in your step when you get out of bed in the morning? How is it something you'd be proud to tell your kids you were involved with? How did it change and make the world a slightly marginally better place? Those are the kind of questions that you can ask yourself. I can't give the answers to everyone about how to create meaning, but it does involve thinking beyond the obvious, reading beyond the obvious, listening and observing beyond the obvious.
Al ElliottThere was a period of time, I think from my memory, about mid-'90s onwards, where Shell as a brand weren't the good guys. And we're not going to go into exactly why, but at that period in time, how was it? How did you manage to keep people feeling positive about the work they were doing when there were so many headlines and it felt like you were the bad guys?
Mike HarleYeah, I mean, there were things happening in the wider shell that were uncomfortable, especially to young people who were maybe politically conscious. There was stuff going on, sadly, in Nigeria and with the Brent Sparr incident that The brand took a hit at that time. At the same time, from a marketing point of view in the UK, we were becoming a more and more useful brand. We started selling different types of petrol. So guys and girls with high-performance cars found there was a new petrol that would serve their needs. We were trying to get more competitive on price, closer to the supermarkets. We were developing shops and catering to many, many more of their needs than ever before. We were one of the first ones in with air miles, loyalty programs. You know, we were a pretty useful brand. And at that sort of forecourt marketing level, we had a pretty good reputation. I must tell you a story about that though. There was one sort of strange, or, you know, for every Jimmy Carr moment, there was an equivalent thing where my decision was bad. And I remember being approached about that time late '90s, it would've been by a guy called Dietrich, who was the guy behind Red Bull. Red Bull at that time was really struggling to find its way in the UK market. And Dietrich used to regularly give us a ring and say, Mike, how about if I gave Shell exclusivity, like exclusive outlet rights for Red Bull in the UK? You've got a lot of truck drivers, they're tired, You know, they want an energy drink. I mean, at that time, energy drinks didn't exist as a category. So this was all quite speculative. And, you know, at that time, talking about bad decisions, we were very involved with promoting Virgin Cola. So I'm the guy also, I might have said yes to Jimmy Carr, but I also said no to Red Bull. And, you know, take your pick, you know, which was a great decision or not. So I went back with Virgin Cola and not Red Bull. And, uh, but Red Bull found their own way. They started marketing through clubs to clubbers, you know, essentially, uh, and that they found their way in marketing terms, and we weren't about to be the guinea pigs for that. But, uh, yeah, that was something that I look back and think, hmm, could have— that could have gone differently. And, and, you know, there was part of that also that we were so bloody busy. And when opportunities come across your desk and they're flying in from left, right, and center, it's difficult to always give attention to the right thing. What I would say about the Jimmy episode though, is if I hadn't had time for him, we wouldn't be where we are. So as a manager, leader, the second bit of advice I'd give you is to make sure that you're not stingy.
Al ElliottYeah.
Mike Harlewith the time that you give special people and people in general. Make sure that you've got time available, whatever it takes, to listen to them.
Al ElliottWell, that's a nice segue, listening to people, because you left in 2008, and since then, over the last— what, what are we up to, almost 19 years, 18 years— you've done an awful lot. So you've been a priest, you're now helping with lots of different projects, Talk me through the timeline. 2008, you left, and then what happened next?
Mike HarleYeah, I left in 2008. My, uh, my first wife had died in 2004, so I was bringing up my son on my own, uh, with a bit of help from an absolutely wonderful mother-in-law. Um, so that was kind of a tough time. I was drawn into the church at that time. She'd had a strong faith I hadn't, but, you know, there were lots of light bulbs went on at that time, and I got involved and very rapidly moved through training, which is a long process, into the church and became a priest in the Church of England in southwest London. It was a time of, I felt, giving back to the community, trying to get some value from, you know, the difficulties that I'd been through, something of lasting worth that was going to help other people rather than just, you know, kind of be a therapeutic exercise for myself. Um, it was about that time that I engaged also in regular psychotherapy. Uh, so, you know, to me, I, I do 2 kinds of workout every week. I do, I do tennis, I do physical workouts, but I do an emotional workout, and I I still do that every week, even here in Berna, with the same person, in fact. So that's really helped me understand where I've come from, where I'm going, and to clear out my emotions. To, you know, to laugh, cry, share with another person on a regular basis is just incredibly healthy. And if you're a leader under stress, If you're not doing it, you know, you might want to think about that. You don't have to be ill to do it. You have to be healthy to do it or get healthier. So yes, back to the timeline. So I was a priest for those years. I suppose we then had an interruption for COVID in which my tennis improved enormously, playing with my son pretty much every day. And that was a great pleasure. And yeah, then my new wife, Jane, or to use her Czech name, Jana Vlaková, and I decided to move to Bournemouth. It was quite random, but I wanted to work with asylum seekers, you know, kind of for the same reasons. I wanted to go where there was a need, where there was a—
Al ElliottA need.
Mike HarleWhere there was, if you like, a deep sort of human need that I might be able to help with in some way. And I worked with a fantastic charity down in Bournemouth called International Care Network and, uh, did a variety of different things with them. But it brought me into daily contact with a large cohort of asylum seekers who I was honored to, you know, kind of help with the legal stuff, with the language stuff, with trying to get used to life in the UK and what that would mean for them. So that was a great time. I'd worked on, as I say, some women's housing projects in the meantime, a secondary school, state secondary school I was involved with. But that Bournemouth episode was really marked. I've kind of got used to the idea of change. I I don't love change and embrace it. So I thought, okay, let's start a new career. Let's go to a place where there's an unintelligible language. Let's break the Brexit rules and move to Europe. Let's layer on the change and see how I grow. And that's what I'm doing. And I am absolutely loving it. We're happy here. It's a great country, the Czech Republic, and Brno is a great city. Not that I'm encouraging lots of UK tourists to come here, but it's a great city and it's a hidden gem. It's in Moravia, it's in the east of Czech Republic. It's an hour and a half from Vienna, 3 hours from Prague, near Bratislava, Budapest, Krakow. We're in the center of Europe and it's got a richness, a history. The people bear the scars. But since 1989, Václav Havel and all the wonderful things that happened as the country became liberated, you know, it's a place of fantastic opportunity. So if you like, I'm back in a sense, trying to help in some small way release the potential of those people.
Al ElliottYou've used this word potential a couple of times, and I sense that a lot of people who are managers think they are managing performance, but it seems like you're managing potential. Is that right?
Mike HarleI'm managing both. You know, there's no potential without performance. You've got to be able to perform first, and then people start listening to you. I mean, the only reason I could get away with offering Jimmy, you know, uh, um, beyond the normal, uh, if you like, line management advice was because my performance was good. The performance gave me the license to manage people's potential because they believed in me. They believed in that what I was doing was going to be for the benefit of the company and for the individuals. So it's not an either/or, Al. It's performance first.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Mike Harlethen manage your potential. But equally, if your performance is good and you're starting to realize your value to the organization or just as a human being, don't underestimate that. Take the blinkers off and see what's possible beyond the current situation.
Al ElliottYou mentioned before you read Before and After, Jimmy Carr's excellent book. Not at all what I expected, to be honest. Uh, we really enjoyed it. Have you been to see him recently on any of his gigs?
Mike HarleUh, I haven't, uh, um, I'm afraid I, uh, haven't been. You know, he and I were in touch last year. We had a warm, uh, conversation. I mean, to be honest, he mentions me so much these days that people, you know, my mates are all saying, oh, you know, Jimmy's been on the radio, he's talked about you again. Um, you know, I'm grateful for the continued acknowledgement. I don't earn a cent from it. It's great, you know, that, uh, that's happened. And I really, you know, uh, there's a humility in that and acknowledging the contribution that we made at that time. And, uh, so, you know, good luck to him.
Al ElliottThere is something about watching someone like Jimmy Carr, even if you don't like his comedy, because his comedy isn't for everyone, but if you don't like it, he's just masterful at an awful lot of things. Like, He's— I've seen his doing his crowd work, and I've been to see him live 3 times now. I've been to see— and he does his crowd work, and he's just, he's just masterful, isn't he?
Mike HarleHe is. And it's, it's really hard to equate with the nervous 24-year-old in my office, uh, that someone could, uh, could make such a shift. So I guess if we're talking about managing change, then Jimmy would be a good person to speak about that. I'm very pleased. Yeah. Because, you know, I don't know where he'd be if he'd stayed at Shell, Al. You know, things wouldn't have gone so well.
Al ElliottYou've said he was curious. You've demonstrated you were obviously very curious. Curiosity seems to be the thing that helps you move towards success. Is that fair to say?
Mike HarleYeah. When I get interested in something, I want to go into it deeply. It's a family trait. All of my family are the same. We become slightly obsessive about things. My brother was obsessive about playing the saxophone and became the most recorded saxophonist in the world. I'm proud to have a nephew that's Dua Lipa's producer. I've got another nephew that's just written an amazing book on Arsenal. And most of all, I'm proud my, uh, my own son, uh, son now who is, uh, you know, working in the sports media industry for UK Sport. Um, so kind of we're all curious and we all go into things in great detail. It's a, it's a family trait. And at the moment I'm in the Czech Republic and I want to know everything about it— music, culture, everything.
Leanne ElliottThat was Mike Harle, And look, we could give you 3 takeaways about management frameworks, but honestly, that feels like the wrong response to this conversation because Mike's story isn't really about management. It's something rarer than that.
Al ElliottYeah. And what struck me throughout my chat with Mike is that Mike didn't see Jimmy Carr the employee. He saw Jimmy Carr the person, and in the end, Jimmy Carr the friend. And he had the confidence and the generosity to act on that. So I think the word I'd use for Mike is a curator of talent. Not just a manager, not even just a leader. Someone who looks at people around him and asks, what could this person actually become? And then actually does something about it.
Leanne ElliottAnd what's remarkable is that it didn't stop with Shel. He continued to help others, from asylum seekers in Bournemouth, software developers in Brno, even a Cameroonian footballer trying to get his break. Mike just keeps doing it.
Al ElliottAnd it just so happens that one of the people he did it for became one of the UK's best-known comedians. But I don't think that's really the point for Mike. I think the point of this is for all of us to be a little more Mike. Have a think, who around you right now is in the wrong stream, and do you care enough to say so? Now, Mike isn't looking for clients and he's not on social media, but if something in this conversation resonated and you'd like to reach out to Mike, just get in touch with us. All the links are in the show notes. And also, I first heard about Mike in the book Before and Laughter by Jimmy Carr. It's not what you think. It's a really, really good book, and I recommend you go out and buy it today.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work. We will see you next week. Bye.