Episode 174 · 25 February 2025 · 50:31

Meta's masculine energy, task masking and toxic superstars. PLUS! How to measure the impact of training, with Valamis' Veerle Numan - This Week in Work, 25th February 2025

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Intro and Welcome
intro#podcast #intro #welcome
Story 1: Meta's masculine energy and what it really signals
news roundup#masculine-energy #zuckerberg #workplace-culture
Story 2: Task masking: the new workplace resistance movement
news roundup#task-masking #resistance #productivity
Story 3: A 4-part framework for finding meaning in a chaotic world
news roundup#meaning #framework #chaos
Hot Take: Veerle Numan on measuring the impact of learning & AI
hot take#learning #ai #impact #measurement
Workplace Surgery Q1: My boss keeps adding context (but they're wrong)
workplace surgery#management #feedback #context
Workplace Surgery Q2: My top performer is toxic
workplace surgery#toxic-employee #performance #management
Workplace Surgery Q3: My employee disclosed their depression
workplace surgery#mental-health #depression #disclosure #support
What's next and Wrap-up
news roundup#wrap-up #next #closing

Show notes

Meta's Masculine Energy, Task Masking & Toxic Superstars — Plus: How to Measure the Impact of Training with Veerle Numan

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down Meta's controversial "masculine energy" pivot, the rise of "task masking" as quiet resistance to return-to-office mandates, and a practical framework for finding meaning when the workplace feels chaotic. Plus, Valamis' Veerle Numan shares her hot take on measuring the immeasurable in L&D, and the Workplace Surgery tackles correcting a wrong boss, toxic superstars, and supporting an employee who's disclosed depression.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Is Meta redefining leadership — or just profits over people? Mark Zuckerberg's call for more "masculine energy" in the workplace has been followed by layoffs, scaled-back DEI initiatives, and cancelled inclusivity funding. Leanne and Al unpack what this actually signals — and why it's Psychology 101 that entrepreneurs chasing power will chase power. The question is whether it's sustainable.

2. Task masking: the new workplace resistance movement Employees are "task masking" — faking productivity to push back against return-to-office mandates. Al and Leanne dig into the psychology of masking, how it shows up in engagement data, and why disengagement is disengagement no matter what we call it. If you're running engagement surveys and seeing the signs, the fix isn't more surveillance — it's a better environment.

3. A 4-part framework for finding meaning in a chaotic world Feeling overwhelmed by political drama, layoffs, and toxic work cultures? Leanne shares a quick self-check covering close relationships, and the other pillars that help you realign and reconnect when the world feels like too much.

🔥 Hot Take of the Week: Veerle Numan on The Future of Learning & AI

Veerle Numan, Senior Learning Solution Partner at Valamis, challenges outdated workplace training and explains how AI is changing learning & development.

Why most L&D fails: Throwing content at employees isn't learning — it's just information overload.
How AI & data can transform learning: AI can measure engagement, analyze training effectiveness, and predict skill gaps.
Key takeaway: AI can't magically fix learning cultures — but it can make training more effective and personalized.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

"My boss keeps adding context" (but they're wrong): A manager keeps interrupting meetings to correct a listener — but is often wrong. How do you push back without making it awkward?
"My top performer is toxic": A high-achiever delivers 40% of the team's output — but is horrible to work with. Should you risk losing them by addressing behaviour — or keep tolerating the chaos?
"My employee disclosed their depression": A team member is struggling with mental health but wants to keep it private. How do you support them while balancing team performance?

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

🎧 What's Next?

This Thursday: Al and Leanne are joined once again by Dr. Enya Doyle, aka The Harassment Doctor, to tackle some of the trickiest workplace dilemmas:

Can liking a colleague's Instagram posts be harassment?
Should you ban swearing if just one person is offended?
How do you comfort a crying coworker without HR knocking on your door?

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Veerle NumanNice.

Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottWelcome, welcome, welcome. Hello. How's your week been? What's new? Uh, come and say hi. We miss you. You should be talking to us on LinkedIn. You know we're there.

Leanne ElliottYeah, come on over. It is where we tend to have all the, all the conversations that happen between the episodes after they go live before the next one comes. Um, so yeah, go and, go and check it out. Either me or Truth, Lies and Work podcast has its actual own LinkedIn page, doesn't it, Al? You're on there all the time.

Al ElliottNo.

Leanne ElliottSo, before we lie to you anymore, 9 seconds of admin. If you're a regular listener, just tune out for about 9 seconds. Maybe think about some cheese or something, a nice cheddar. If you're new here, this is how it all works. Today's Tuesday. It is, I know, I can't believe it. The week is going so fast already. This is our This Week in Work episode, where we update you on what's happening in the world of work, plus we have a hot take from an expert guest and your weekly dose of the world famous, uh, workplace surgery. What is it, Al? World famous workplace surgery.

Al ElliottYeah, something like that.

Leanne ElliottIt's a surgery. We answer your questions.

Al ElliottIf they're new here, they won't know that we fluffed that. That's okay.

Leanne ElliottSure. Anyway, yes, what I meant to say was our world famous weekly workplace surgery where, um, I answer your questions.

Al ElliottYes, and every Thursday we bring you a brand new interview with an expert guest who knows how to create great workplace cultures. This Thursday, well, let's just say that I was well and truly schooled by a workplace harassment expert. You have to listen to this Thursday. It is a good one. And so with that out the way, Leanne, what time is it?

Leanne ElliottIt is my favourite time of the week, Al. It is time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle.

Al ElliottJingle is being queued. Okay, Lee, what have you seen this week?

Leanne ElliottSo you know how Mark Zuckerberg said that he wanted to see more masculine energy in the workplace? Well, from what I've seen, it basically means being a dick.

Al ElliottOh.

Leanne ElliottHonestly, the drivel I am seeing from Meta right now is, is truly shocking, and actually, I think, an absolute insult to masculinity and male leaders. I would be fuming if I were you, Al, about what Mark is currently saying. Um, lovely listener, you've probably heard bits and pieces about what's been going on at Meta, but when you put it all together, like I said, the picture is pretty shocking. So let's recap. Early 2025, Meta let go of around 3,600 employees. That's about 5% of its workforce. The official line was it was because they were cost-cutting, um, and were getting rid of lower performers to streamline operations, but many were questioning that narrative. Just a week later, um, an SEC filing shows that Meta is making a dramatic change to its pay structure. For 2023 and 2024, executive bonuses were set 75% of their base salary, but come 2025 Those bonuses will increase to 200% of base salary. So in practical terms, top executives are about to earn bonuses in the millions despite thousands of employees being laid off, uh, as part of vital cost-cutting efforts. Hmm, suspicious. Uh, shortly after, uh, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, one of the front runners of diversity and inclusion, uh, scrapped its entire DEI team.

Al ElliottWow.

Leanne ElliottDon't need it anymore. And then cancelled funding for inclusive— inclusivity projects. Don't need them either. Apparently we fixed AI, we've solved it. Um, instead the focus is shifting to funding in the fields of biology and AI. Uh, so yes, clearly a move away from previous commitment— previous commitments to inclusivity. Um, and then there's that podcast, uh, that I mentioned at the top there. Mark Zuckerberg recently appeared on Joe Rogan, another gift that keeps on giving, where he argued that too much focus on inclusivity has left companies culturally neutered and that we need to find more masculine energy, um, in terms of leadership. Yes, he really did say that. And really, Mark Zuckerberg's call for more aggressive, decisive leadership, uh, really does fit into everything else that we're seeing happening at Meta, together with the layoffs, the bonus boost, the DEI cuts. I think it paints a pretty clear picture, actually, um, that there is a shift towards leadership driven by control And fear. So my question is, Al, is this really what is going to define masculinity in 2025? I do have a feeling there are a lot of men out there who would very much disagree. Thoughts?

Al ElliottYes, of course, lots of people would disagree. There's also going to be, like we said last time with the Jamie Dimon thing, Jamie Dimon thing, we need to find out how you say his name, um, is that potentially this is just more of a, you know, like how America's now got a new president. The new president seems to have very different ideas to their competitor. Um, in the presidential race. Uh, and so maybe it's just aligning with that because let's be honest, Elon's, um, I can't say the word bombing, can I? Uh, but, uh, you just did. Elon, Elon is definitely, uh, definitely enjoying the company, um, of Trump. And so maybe, uh, maybe the whole point is Zuck's going, oh, I feel like a bit of a cuck here, uh, looking at, um, looking at Elon and Trump and going, well, I want my turn. So they've gone, well, I'll show him. Just how well I can be a boy and a man and we can earn money.

Veerle NumanWoof.

Al ElliottYeah. I don't know. I mean, it's, to be honest, the whole of the whole FAANG thing, apart from actually fag. No, can't say that either. I was gonna take Netflix outta FAANG, but—

Leanne ElliottExplain what it is before we get canceled quickly.

Al ElliottSorry. Uh, yeah. FAANG stands for the top 5 technology companies. Uh, Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google, and one other. I'm sure you're shouting at me what it is. Um, and, uh, uh, and they, most of them apart from Netflix, most of them seem to be aligning themselves with Trump and going, oh yes, this sounds like a Great idea. Let's get— let's streamline things. Let's be, let's be a little bit like you said, be a bit of a dick. Um, and, uh, hopefully I think they're just looking for their time in the, in the, in the limelight with, uh, with PT.

Leanne ElliottYeah, it's unsurprising that entrepreneurs who want power are chasing power. Um, it's Psychology 101 really, isn't it? What concerns me, and I talked about this on another podcast recently, is that on a serious note, we make light of these things, but what these behaviours are, they're coercive leadership behaviours. They're bullying behaviors. And what concerns me as a psychologist, they, they are being normalized, um, at a scale and rate that I find very unsettling and very uncomfortable. Make no mistake about it, if you're a leader out there, these are not the behaviors to subscribe to. They are not the leaders that will result in you having a long-term successful business. And before you go, yeah, but I'm sure, uh, Tesla will be fine, I'm sure, you know, whatever else will be fine— maybe, but there are plenty of examples in history of these types of coercive leaders who have gone on to completely derail, um, and, and lose everything. We've heard some very famous examples of that. Enron, I think, was one, wasn't it? Um, what's the bank in the, um, GFCL? Oh, I was a little bit ego-driven. The Lehman Brothers.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottYeah. Um, there's lots of examples. I don't think it's sustainable. I think there's going to be a shift, and I do not think history will favor the likes of Mr. Zuckerberg. Very well.

Al ElliottNo, I totally agree.

Leanne ElliottAnyway, enough of that. Have you seen anything more cheery this week, Al?

Al ElliottYes, I have got a new term for you. It's going—

Leanne ElliottYou're finding all these new terms at the minute, aren't you?

Al ElliottNo, I know. It's a TikTok thing, understandably. Entrepreneur.com wrote up a whole thing on it. And this new term is— are you ready? It's called task masking. Not Taskmastering. It's a different show. Task masking. Any ideas?

Leanne ElliottWell, I know what masking is in terms of general psychology literature. It's usually when we try to hide our thoughts or feelings or emotions or behaviours in a way that allows us to conform, fit in, avoid negative consequences. So we typically see it quite a lot. People with autism have lots of masking behaviours. As a woman, I might have masking behaviours in these more masculine workplace cultures. So task masking. Pretending to do something you're not?

Al ElliottIt's exactly what it is. I actually, 'cause I had, I didn't know why it was called task masking, but that's, that, well, there we go. Every day's a school day. Yeah, basically it's the modern equivalent of carrying a folder around the office to look busy when actually the folder is empty or just full of, I don't know, takeaway menus or something. I don't know. This article states that the younger workers are retaliating against this return to office mandate by performing what they're calling productivity theatre. Now, according to Gallup, and I think we've all known this for a while, about 60% of remote workers would rather find a new job than actually go back into the office. But companies like Amazon and JP Morgan are still pushing ahead with these mandates. So pushing back, these employees are downloading social media apps to their work computers so they, so they can be mucking about online when they look like they're working. They're making frustrated noises every 15 minutes. Oh God, they've worked so hard. They're walking quickly between fake meetings, and my personal favorite, they're making extraordinarily serious facial expressions, which is what the article says, while doing fake business hand gestures on phone calls when in actual fact they're actually on the phone to their mates. Amanda Augustine, she's the resident career expert for Career.io, said this: companies that demand their employees to return to the office are sending a message that presence equals productivity. However, the latest TikTok trend indicates this is not the case. Task masking reflects young professionals' beliefs that time and face time at work isn't equal to the outcome and impact. Leigh, thoughts?

Leanne ElliottI'm not surprised. I mean, it goes back to the root of what masking is, isn't it? It's to, to look like you're fitting in when really you have very different, different thoughts or feelings or emotions. Um, I get it as well, pushing back against authority. If we don't have that autonomy, we tend to get a bit defensive in a way that they'll react in a way that we want to gain some control back. The problem is for anyone who is out there currently task masking, and you'll know this already, this won't be a surprise to you. It's that dissonance that's going to cause the problem of how you're kind of thinking and feeling and then actually turning up like with a smile on like you're, you're doing the work. It's that not wanting to be in the office and having to be in the office, however you think, feel, physically have to be there.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottIf those 2 things are mismatched, that dissonance is going to start to get to you in terms of stress, in terms of frustration, in terms of detachment from work, all the really bad things. And that is when it is actually going to start to impact your mental health and your performance in ways that your employer may notice. So, it's tricky. I'm not sure it's sustainable, but I get it. It's a bit of a virtual finger up to the people that have made you go back into the office, hasn't it? And I think if that power struggle is what is going to be the continuous narrative post-pandemic, Um, I totally get why, why people are turning to TikTok to, um, to show off their task masking.

Al ElliottI love it. I love it. I think there's, um, there's something which you've told me about this before. Um, I think it's called reactance theory or something where—

Leanne ElliottNever heard of that.

Al ElliottHave you not?

Leanne ElliottNot to say it isn't true.

Al ElliottIt's when you lose control over one thing, so therefore you just, you take something, uh, you try and gain control over something perhaps a little smaller, more granular. So for example, if you feel like you're completely out of your depth at work, then you might be fastidious about your to-do list because that's the thing you can control. And I feel like this is it, that people are being sent back to work. They don't wanna be there. Clearly they don't wanna be there. And so they're going, right, well, if I can't control where I work, I'll control how much work I do and how I actually do it.

Leanne ElliottIt's disengagement. We can wrap it up in whatever, whatever word we wanna call it. When people disengage, they'll quiet quit or task mask. They are disconnecting from work and they're doing They're putting in less effort because, because they're, they're very confident that they can continue to do that, deliver the outcomes they already have been, because they're not more productive working from the office. Do you know what I mean? It's all just, it's all just disengagement. It's bad for people, it's bad for organisations, it's bad for working life, and it's not got better over the last 20 years plus. Um, I, do you know what I want to talk about? Let's just talk about engagement. Can we just talk about engagement, please?

Al ElliottYeah, what, right now?

Leanne ElliottNo, just in general. We don't need to like dress it up as stuff, you know.

Al ElliottWell, the other thing is that if you, if you are running decent engagement surveys, um, there is one called the RX7, which, um, my wife and co-host has, um, has invented, which is incredible. But if you're running a decent engagement survey, you're going to soon find out that this is what's happening. You'll soon find out that people are totally disengaged and that what this is down to, this RTO thing. Still don't fully understand why people are insisting on RTO. They say it's because it's better productivity. They say there's more creativity when you sort of bump into people. Um, at work, you don't need to be creative all the time. I don't think most jobs— perhaps if you're, if you're Mad Men or something like that, you might be creative all the time. But, you know, why not just one day a week? And then you can potentially go in and bump in and play ping pong or something and come up with great ideas.

Leanne ElliottThen make it an environment that is conducive to those, I mean, those types of behaviour and that type of activity. I mean, we spoke to Ed Williams, the CEO of Candy Kittens, who's created a phenomenal office where people not only want to be, they bring their friends and family with them just to kind of show how amazing the office is. It's somewhere that, that they feel productive, they feel engaged, that they want to, they want to be. Make workplaces better and people will be more inclined to go to them.

Al ElliottYeah, 100%. 100%. Well, Le, that's me. What else have you seen this week?

Leanne ElliottWell, I mean, I have been a bit ranty because there's a lot going on. And the truth is, I have been getting messages from So many of you lately saying that everything is just getting a bit overwhelming, and I get it. There's a lot, there's a lot to get overwhelmed by. The political drama, the wars, leaders who seem out of control, out of touch, these strict return-to-office mandates, DI rollbacks. It is a lot to handle. Um, so I recently came across a guide by Stephen Hain on Psyche that I thought I'd share with you. It talks about making your life feel more meaningful when we're in kind of this state of chaos and lack of control. So to bring some of our life back into balance amidst this chaos, um, he suggests that we do a little mini quiz, a little mini audit, see how connected we feel in 4 key areas of our life. Those areas are relationships, community, work, and spirituality. So we'll just quickly rate each of these areas in our heads as we go through on a scale of 1 to 3, 1 being not very connected at all right now and 3 being very connected.

Al ElliottOkay.

Leanne ElliottSo first up, Al, we have close relationships. That's how's your connection with family, with friends? Do you feel like you've got a solid support system? And if you do feel a bit low here, it might be time to reach out, call a friend, schedule a catch-up, or even plan a simple coffee date. Next, let's talk about community. This is all about feeling like you belong somewhere, a local group, a sports team, even an online community. Ask yourself, do you feel part of something bigger? And if not, maybe consider joining a group or volunteering. Sometimes even really small steps can boost that sense of belonging. And just as a little hint, listening to us right now means that you are part of the Truth, Lies and Work community. You are not alone in wanting to create awesome workplaces. And speaking of that, the third area to consider is work. So beyond just showing up or task masking, does your job give you a sense of purpose? Do you really feel like what you do matters? If work feels more like a grind than a calling, then there are lots of different things you can do if you can't get a new job right now. Maybe there's a project that you could dive into, or a side hustle, or even some voluntary work that sparks your passion. And finally, consider spirituality. And I don't mean just religion, although that is one aspect of it, but any practice that helps you feel connected to something bigger than yourself, to be feeling mindful of your environment, whether it's a few minutes of meditation, a walk in the park, maybe take your little hound with you, or some quiet time. Just some quiet time. Was the last time just sat and just didn't do anything, just be quiet. Ask yourself if you're taking time to ground yourself. Um, actually, there's a quite interesting video about forest bathing on our YouTube channel. I'd recommend you check that out if you're looking for some, some ideas. Real thing, don't have to do it naked, that is optional. Um, so once you've got your rankings, uh, just to remind you, relationships, community, work, and spirituality. As I said, if one of these does feel a little bit out of sync, it's some sign that you might need to give it some attention. And why does this matter? Well, when everything around us is really stressful, it is easy to feel disconnected. It's, it's psychology, it's physiology— physi— physi— physiology. Why can't I say that word? Physiology.

Al ElliottYou did, I think.

Leanne ElliottDid I just say it? Repeated it a number of times. Um, but yeah, our threat response kicks in. We tend to withdraw and isolate ourselves. It's very natural, very normal response, but there is a lot of psychology that shows us that when we feel connected, the opposite of that, we find more meaning in our lives and we're actually much better equipped to handle life's challenges. And that's the kind of catch-22 we're in physically, emotionally, psychologically. We want to withdraw. Actually, the best thing we can do is connect with others. So yeah, here's a thought for you. Which of these 4 areas do you feel you could use a boost in right now? And what's the one small step you could take today to make that connection Stronger.

Al ElliottIt's lovely. I think the, um, uh, this is along the lines of, I know we mention it every week, we need to be on commission, uh, Dr. Audrey Tang's vitals, um, a little bit along the lines of that. Um, back in the day, um, it was, I think we used to call it the life wheel or something where you'd, you'd have like 8 spokes and you'd measure it and it would show you like, it looked like a spider web kind of thing, uh, show you where you're out of sync. Um, yeah, I think we all need a little bit of time and this community thing is That's something I think is going to be massive in 2025, or it's— the problem is going to be massive in 2025, is that you're just going to— people are lacking friendship, lacking community. They're just lacking it. And they really, really, really want it because we just live online so much that often— I did see something funny on Twitter the other day. Someone took a screenshot of a post. I might have been on LinkedIn actually. And this guy, he was a tech guy from the States, and he said, What? I've got this idea, so why don't we just like do a podcast where we get a load of people together, but we just don't record, we don't have mics, we just sit there and have a cup of coffee and like have a chat. And someone pointed out, well, mate, that's just hanging out. That's what we used to do. So, you know, we've gone that full thing where everything has to be a podcast or has to be like a thing. People are just craving connection and craving friends. Difficult for men to make friends. I've got no, I've got no basis, no scientific basis from that, but I'm sure there'll be stuff online.

Veerle NumanYeah.

Al ElliottFriends, particularly sort of my age downwards. I think everyone's just struggling at the moment. So this is really, really good advice.

Leanne ElliottAnd as I said, don't forget you can find those communities online as well if you're struggling to find them in person. Sometimes online is a good place to start. And also in terms of community and in terms of work, volunteering is really underrated, not talked about enough. Like, it's one of the few things in terms of wellbeing, individual things you can do In terms of wellbeing that show consistency, consistently a correlation with improved mental health, wellbeing, meaning, purpose, all that type of thing. And it's actually really good for your career development as well. I joined the Samaritans, as regular listeners will know, very, um, quite early on in my career to get some experience, a point in my career where I wasn't particularly fulfilled or happy and worked for a bit of a dick as well, to be honest. But you know what, when I was able to move on, I had that couple of years experience under my belt. I went to a job interview and the only thing the interviewer wanted to talk to me about was marathons. Didn't give a monkey's about the, you know, the experience I gained in HR and coaching and all that stuff. So, it's always worth looking at.

Al ElliottOkay, so after this very short break, we'll be back with this week's hot take, which is from a woman from Valamis, which is one of the leading learning management system providers. If you thought that training and development was just throwing a manual at a new starter and hoping for the best, then Veerle is definitely going to change your mind.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. It. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how Encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.

Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Alistair, talk to me about this week's hot take, will you?

Al ElliottRight. We've got a brilliant guest for you today. Veerle Numan. Am I saying that right, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottI think so.

Al ElliottYeah. Veerle, if I've got it right. I'm sorry. I've been practising all morning. She's a senior learning solutions partner at Valamis. They're the folks who build these really clever, like, learning platforms for big companies. Now, I know what you're thinking, another tech platform promising to solve all our problems, but stick with me because Veerle's got a really interesting take on how we can actually measure the stuff we usually think is unmeasurable in learning and development. Plus, she's got some pretty strong opinions about AI that might just surprise you.

Veerle NumanHi, I'm Veerle Numan. I'm a learning solution partner here at Valamis, and Valamis is a learning platform, and we build learning ecosystems for companies so we can connect the dots between the learning And the business. And what I do is I help my customers implement it, but then mostly from the L&D point of view. So how can an LMS help you drive the changes that you want in your company?

Leanne ElliottSo with that in mind, I'm really looking forward to this one. Tell me, what is your hot take?

Veerle NumanMy hot take has all to do with data. So I believe you can measure the immeasurable. In LMD data in your learning management system, when you use that properly, it can give you so much insight. It can not just only be informative, but also actionable. So you know how you can change your learning environment. So of course it's important for HR, for example, to track compliancy, how that's being done, if that's all good. But we also have data which can show how people are interacting with your learning content. So are people, for example, engaging with it or not as much? What are the ratings, but also really about the content itself? So for example, did people skip a video or did they scroll through it? So you can really measure how do people interact with it. So you can then make your content even better. So it are not just outcomes, but it gives you measurable progress that could align with your bigger organizational goals. So quick example, you have one video lesson in which you made a role play to demonstrate something and a, let's say, text-based lesson. You can analyze both to kind of do an A/B test, which one is performing better, and then make actionable and measurable options. Of course, we can also still combine it because of course you have your own preferences. So maybe I really like to watch that video, but my colleague would love to read it as a text, but then we at least know what the business wants and what the business needs so we can connect to that. So what we often see for an HR is that they often are really focused on compliance certification. So for example, food safety certificates, safety trainings, so first aid, that kind of stuff, and data that shows how it can contribute to the overall employees' performance. However, on the L&D side of things, we see Other KPIs that are important. So for example, how does content drive the skill development within the company? Or how does the content help learners to better retain their knowledge? Or how are they engaged with it? So for a L&D, we, for example, track skill matrix, how people are growing within the company, and then we can check how the learning content is kind of connected to that and therefore helps the learners and the employees grow within their organization. So what my customers, for example, do is they have a training and the learner give directly feedback after the training. And the same does the manager does the same, but then after 3 months. So we can really check what is the impact of the training on in the work processes. So it's not just a one-time been there, done that checklist. No, it's really measuring, did the training contribute to, for example, faster onboarding, faster working, less safety issues whatsoever in the workplace.

Leanne ElliottIs there maybe an example you can give of, of, of maybe how you've helped an organization realize the value of L&D by using this platform and process?

Veerle NumanYeah. So one of my customers has quite an extensive library with questions. So what they do is they analyze their questions and see if the questions are answered correctly. If, for example, they, let's say, hit a 90% rate, they say, hey, people already know it good enough, so we don't need to do this knowledge check anymore with this specific question. Let's switch it up for something else so we can still drive that learner to learn more and be engaged with the content. Of course, there is still kind of a mix between some questions the person might have wrong, so he feels the need to learn, but not always have everything correct. Because yeah, if you have everything correct, are you then really engaged to start learning? Not that much. So they analyze their questions. If they spot, okay, This is already really nicely retained within the company. Let's switch it up so the content is always relevant.

Leanne ElliottIf you had a magic wand and could just change one thing about the world of L&D or how businesses approach L&D, what would it be?

Veerle NumanDon't think AI can magically solve your entire learning culture. It's not that if you just push a lot of content, your learning culture is there. It's kind of like a library. You can have a super big library with thousands of books, but does it then really mean that people are going to read them, that it is valuable for them? So the learning culture is way more about, yes, you have a library, but how do you make it accessible for those people? So my magic wand would be giving people that knowledge. So Yes, AI can definitely help you to speed up processes, to make stuff more available, but then there needs to be a strategy behind it. So people are driven towards what is relevant for them right now, but also in the future if they want to upscale or reskill.

Al ElliottI thought that was really interestingly, I particularly liked what she said about AI not being some magic Yeah, AI can get in the bin if you think it's going to fix anything independently.

Leanne ElliottBut, you know, from a psychological perspective, I think what was really great about what Veerle said, and within the context of AI as well, was the library analogy. Just because you have access to all of those resources doesn't mean that you're going to use them appropriately or your people will engage with them meaningfully. I mean, you used to have hundreds of books, Al, but I'm pretty sure you haven't read half of them.

Al ElliottNo. I really hadn't. I bought a load once from Borders. That shows how long ago it was.

Leanne ElliottOh, I used to love Borders. That was my Saturday.

Al ElliottYeah, but you didn't buy anything, which is why you know why Borders went out of business.

Leanne ElliottExpensive.

Al ElliottExactly. But I just wanted to look clever. Talking clever, this idea of measuring the unmeasurable. I think most business owners really struggle with knowing if training is actually working.

Leanne ElliottYeah. And that's because traditionally organisations have focused on what's easy to measure, the completion rates, the satisfaction scores, that sort of thing. Very few Um, training programs will start with that training analysis. Very few will bake in that evolution, um, evaluation process that Veerle was talking about. It is so much more sophisticated when you do it correctly, and that doesn't mean more complicated, it just means more detail. So looking at how people actually interact with the contact and content and testing the different formats and measuring the long-term impact, that evaluation piece is so important. And that point that she gave about checking if people are skipping videos.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottOr how they're engaging with the different types of content. I thought that was really clever as well. And not from a kind of calling people out. Do you remember that EY story we heard not so long ago where people were getting sacked for that type of thing? It's not to point fingers. It's to help you create content that is more engaging, that people will learn from more effectively.

Al ElliottSo, if you want to hear more from Veerle, then it's V-E-E— no, that's 3 Es— V-E-E-R-L-E, or Valamis. Then you can find her on LinkedIn. We'll pop the details into the show notes. Just a quick thought. It was, she was now, she was doing the interview with us in her, I think, third language. Um, so, uh, you know, it's just, it's incredible. Absolutely incredible. I, I love Europeans who could speak like 15 different languages. It's cool. It's cool. Anyway, onto my very favourite time of the week. It's time for the world famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Lee, I have 3 questions for you. Are you looking forward to it?

Veerle NumanYes.

Al ElliottOkay, so the question number 1. My boss keeps adding context, but he's actually wrong. So this person writes, my new manager constantly interrupts me during presentations and team meetings to add context to the room, often contradicting what I'm saying. It's undermining my credibility with clients and with teammates. The frustrating part is they're often wrong about technical details but won't actually listen to corrections. Is there any way to stop them from doing this?

Leanne ElliottI, I guess bring it to their attention. Have you had a conversation? with your manager about it. And I know it's a little bit awkward, but sometimes it's more about talking to somebody about what you need, you know, what you need in that moment to communicate the information you need to in that presentation the most impactful way and the way that's best for you. That if she has any feedback or wants to add any context, can she tell you that ahead of time? You find it really derailing to have those interruptions during the presentation, find it hard to get back on track and maintain that clarity. I think it's having that conversation from your perspective, what you need.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne Elliottin those meetings whilst also then trying to diplomatically manage when she does, or they— she, he, did they say they?

Al ElliottI don't think they actually said they.

Leanne ElliottOr when your leader gives you that, when they try and add context that's incorrect, trying ways to ask it, actually, I think it is this way. Ultimately, I would approach it in the first instance from what you need from her in those moments to be able to do your job. most effectively to the best of your ability. Ultimately, if you're being trusted to deliver these presentations, there is a reason, whether it's part of your role, your expertise, that you've proven to be particularly good at it in the past. I think that's your first point really, is have that conversation through the lens of, this is what I need from you as a supportive manager in these moments.

Al ElliottYeah, I think it's quite telling because it's actually written, refused to accept corrections. So, it sounds like this person, this person writing in, is actually saying, Look, that's not quite right. Um, and, um, you know, and this manager's not accepting it. I would probably look at it from less of a point of view of how am I, how can I make it stop? And more like, why is this person, why is this manager doing it? Um, a lot of reasons why people— and Leanne, I'm going to come over to you in a second for the psychology behind it, Leanne. But I think that in my experience, people who sort of jump in in that scenario, they tend to feel like they want to show they're important. They want to show that they too are part of the solution, and they don't want—

Veerle NumanYeah.

Al ElliottThat, you know, the client, for example, to go, oh well, Derek or Jane is the person presenting, they, they're the expert. And so I'm not really sure what this manager's doing here because it looks like they're just sitting there making some notes. So perhaps it's a bit of an insecurity. Leanne, what are your thoughts?

Leanne ElliottYeah, it might, it might well be. It might well be an insecurity, them feeling they have to contribute to, to be seen and have some kind of reason for being there. Equally, even if that is the case, that might Might help you, listener, to give— maybe have some empathy for this person in that moment. But equally, it's going to be hard to say that to them, oh, I think you're just insecure and that's why you're reacting in these meetings. And it is then saying, what I really need from my manager in that moment that I find really helpful is X, Y, and Z. And then, you know, reinforce that behaviour by praising it, reinforce that behaviour by telling your colleagues and your superiors about how great it is when you have to give feedback on your manager, how they give you that autonomy in those moments while you're feeling supported in terms of the preparation side of it.

Veerle NumanYeah.

Leanne ElliottReally, you can only, you can only do so much in terms of changing somebody else's behavior. And, and typically, if we, if we try and use positive, um, ways of doing that, positive reinforcement and positive, um, behavior modifications through the lens of what you need, it's going to be more, more effective. But you're absolutely right, Al, the root cause of it is more than likely insecurity.

Al ElliottInteresting. I think maybe as an actual tactic, um, this is what I would suggest if, if Try Leanne's way first. And then if that doesn't work, perhaps there's something in sales called the damaging admission, where you tend to sort of, you get a bit of like trust by saying something that is an admission of something. So in this example, perhaps going to your manager and saying, look, I'm really sorry, I do get a little bit nervous during these presentations. And then when you jump in with your thoughts, you completely throw me off and I lose where I am in, you know, in this presentation. So would you mind for the next few Till I get back on my feet. Just sort of like keeping your thoughts to the very end, or at least when I finish doing my bit, then you can go back over to your bit because, you know, and that sort of thing, even though it's not true, that sort of thing might make the manager go, okay, I'll have my own bit, or, oh yeah, maybe I want this to go well, so perhaps I should do that. Anyway, Lee, that is question number 1. Question number 2. My top performer is toxic. I've inherited a team where only one member— sorry, I've inherited a team where one member is a brilliant jerk, this person's written. Exceptional at their job, but terrible with people. They're responsible for 40% of our department's output, but their behaviour is affecting team morale. Previous managers have avoided addressing this because of their performance, but how do I handle this without risking losing this person?

Leanne ElliottWhat you have here, friend, is what is called a toxic superstar. I will leave a link in the show notes to a couple of episodes we've done talking about this, where I'm Which, with, uh, Dr. Ryan Sherman from Hogan Assessments, who was fabulous.

Al ElliottBrilliant episode.

Leanne ElliottBrilliant episode. Fun facts about toxic superstars. You might think that they're delivering 40% of your outputs, but in terms of actually lost productivity and morale, um, I think it was something like a statistic, like you'd have to hire 4 additional people to your team to make up for the impact of the toxic superstar on lost productivity and performance. So, whilst it feels like this person is delivering a lot, they're taking a lot away as well. What typically happens when, with toxic superstars, and you haven't said much about your organization's context apart from the fact a few managers have kind of dealt with it or stuck with it. It's usually toxic superstars, in my experience, usually tend from people, come from people who join the organization fairly early on in like late startup, early scale-up mode, or indeed from day one.

Veerle NumanYeah.

Leanne Elliotthave played a significant role in the growth of that business, aren't completely engaged with the— how that organization has evolved in terms of culture, processes, ways of doing things, and just has a level of performance that is good enough that the pain's not— it's not too painful for the manager to have to do anything about it. It's tricky. I think the thing to do is approach this person in the same way you would any other person on your team if there are behaviors that are undesirable. If there are ways of doing things that aren't right, then you have to call it out as you would any other member of the team, and using the right channels in those one-to-ones, informally, formally, whatever it is that the structures you have in place already. The other thing you could do as a tactic, and this will very much depend on the nature of the work and the nature of the organisation, is, is there a role that will better suit that person? So, you said they're bad with customers. Do they need to be—

Veerle NumanYeah.

Leanne ElliottEngaging with customers in any way, or actually could they be in a role that isn't customer-facing but still delivers key outcomes? Could it be that there's a region that person could focus on, or a particular product that person could focus on that is more autonomous, um, less interaction with the team? It's still not an ideal scenario because there will still be resentment towards this person because they're causing trouble. They are toxic. The clue is in the name.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottSo, it's a short-term fix, but as a way of maybe having an immediate impact, that is also a solution that you could explore if it's possible within the context of your organisation. But really, it's hard, and intuitively it feels like you can't let go of this person, but sometimes people have just got to the natural end of their role with an organisation if they're not willing to engage. And the key here It's going to be how coachable this person is. If the person is showing elements of being open to coaching in terms of their learning, in terms of development, in terms of change, then there is a chance that as a manager, you'll be able to work with them in a way that will facilitate the behaviour changes that you need and whatever else, or any other improvements that you need to see happen. If this person is fundamentally not coachable, and you'll know because you'll be listening to this and you'll either go, oh, actually, do you know what? They can take feedback in the right way.

Veerle NumanYeah.

Leanne Elliottin the right circumstances, or you're thinking, no, no, absolutely not, Leanne, this person is not coachable. There's nothing you can do. This person will remain a toxic superstar. And my advice would be to try and manage them out in the best, kindest, most ethical way you can, um, to facilitate them in the most positive way for their next role.

Al ElliottI remember, um, when back in 2001, so that's what, 24 years ago, um, when I last worked in an office, I worked in sales Um, office and we used to sell advertising over, um, like basically over the phone. Um, and so we do, we'd be all full-timers and there was this one guy who'd come in for maybe about 2 hours, uh, twice a week and he'd post almost as much business as, as we did for the entire week. And you would've thought, well, that would, you know, rising tide lifts all boats. You would've thought that that would really make us go, well, if he can do it, we can do it. But, but when he left, he flew in, he like was on the phone shouting in the corner.

Veerle NumanYeah.

Al ElliottSold a load of stuff, about 2 hours, did more than we'd done in the entire day, and then went home. And it kind of like, there was a vacuum when he left. There was just the whole, all of us were like, felt down and depressed because he's obviously very good at it. He's got, he was allowed to come in for 2 hours twice a week. Um, he was allowed to do whatever he wanted and all of us just felt really depressed at the end of it. And so it, it didn't help in any way. It did the opposite, exactly what you just said there. So.

Veerle NumanYeah.

Al ElliottUm, I don't know whether that story is useful or not, but certainly it's like a real-life application of what Leanne just said.

Leanne ElliottYeah, and it, and it is, it's that, it's that black and white, Al, isn't it, really? There's nothing really you can, with the type of person, unless they're, they've got a reason to want to change, then they're not going to. The key question you have to ask yourself is, as a manager, can I coach this person in behaviours that I want to see, and behaviours we want to be reflective of our culture, our ways of working, the way we work? together as a team? If the answer to that question is a hard no, and you've done the work and research to know that that's a hard no, then really it's about focusing your efforts on the rest of the team and managing that person through the formal processes you have in place.

Al ElliottHope it works out for you. Let us know. Let us know. Okay, so question number 3. My employee disclosed their depression to me, but now what? What do I do? One of my direct reports has become increasingly withdrawn and their performance is slipping. In a recent one-to-one, They disclose they're dealing with depression but don't want anyone else to know. I want to be supportive, but I'm also concerned about team deadlines and fairness to others picking up the slack. So how do I balance this?

Leanne ElliottYou are not a therapist. You're a manager. You are not a mental health professional. You are not a medical professional. You are a people manager. It's wonderful that this person felt able to disclose that. condition to you, but within your constraints as a manager, you need to be able to provide an environment in the best way you can that's going to support that person to get better, to get help, and to continue to, to work effectively. Because the alternative is, if they don't, that's going to potentially put them on a spiral that could be really, really devastating. Um, so I think first of all, it's saying to this person that, um, You know that you, you appreciate that they've felt comfortable enough to disclose this to you, that ultimately this isn't within your area of expertise, but you absolutely want to hold a space for them and help them find the right support out there. Um, and go in with some knowledge. Know the services you have available within your organization, the signposting that you can do. Take it a step back further if you don't know that. Um, you know, say to your this member of staff, you're going to speak to HR confidentially, not necessarily naming names, about where these different support services can come from, what support is available just to a member of staff, um, feeling this way or experiencing this mental illness. And I think that's the thing, we have to take this as this is, this is depression, this is becoming debilitating, this is impacting somebody's everyday life. It's not just a case of being sad or down or blue. Depression is a mental illness, um, which can escalate and really Devastating ways. So I think that's the first thing really is go back to that person and say, I understand that this is a difficult thing to share, but for us to move forward effectively in the best possible way, I need to be able to share this with certain people who will maintain this confidentiality in terms of HR, in terms of occupational health. Know the services that you have available within your organisation that you can signpost to and be very clear about how those services work. What the help available will be and how that will interact with their role. And I think finally is taking then any advice you have in terms of your HR department, who you work with, whether that's in-house or outsourced, in terms of what your legal obligations are. What other support might be available to this person in terms of leave, whether it be in terms of of, uh, paid annual leave, non-paid leave, or sickness pay. Really just anything else that you can draw on, the expertise that you can draw on. Because I go back to my first point, you're not a therapist, you're not a mental health professional, you're not a medical professional. It's wonderful this person felt comfortable to do that. Your responsibility now as a manager, your ethical legal responsibility as a manager, is to help this person find the right support that they need to get better, get well.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd stay in work.

Al ElliottFabulous answer, Leigh. I think, um, what you said at the beginning, you said something like, uh, one of my direct reports has become increasingly withdrawn. Um, if you've noticed that, there's a very good chance that the rest of the team have. Um, there's a very good chance that they think, well, they'd be like, yeah, you know, this person is not the same as they used to be. Perhaps they're struggling a little bit. So I don't— I'm not suggesting for a second you talk to your team about this, but You worrying about— yeah, go on, sorry, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottNo, go on.

Al ElliottI was gonna say, you worrying about, um, about your, uh, you know, how you— how your team going to feel? Do they feel like it's not fair? They probably already know, and they're probably already making some kind of, um, adjustments.

Leanne ElliottThey might. It all depends. People withdraw in different ways, don't they? It might be that there's a bit of resentment coming from the team depending on how this person's starting to withdraw. It could be that there's empathy and understanding there. It could be that they feel it's quite obvious what's happening. The other thing I'd say as well is just, just, you can't keep this to yourself because it's not your responsibility. It's not within your, your area of responsibility, but also it can potentially leave you really vulnerable. Bearing in mind that this is a mental illness, and as you say, people withdraw, people become defensive, people react, people will want to, in certain circumstances, find people to blame.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd the reality is that that could be you, and it could be unfounded, and it could be an accusation that doesn't have any substance or foundation or evidence, but that could escalate a whole process. And I've seen it happen, and it's devastating to the people involved. So really, it's about protecting yourself as well. You need to take this to your HR. You need to have this conversation with this individual, and you need to put a plan in place to put in as much support structured support, formal support in place for this person if possible.

Al ElliottSad times. Um, talking of— well, let's, let's, let's brighten things up a little bit because, um, if you've not enjoyed this, then the good news is that we're coming to an end now because we're going to say goodbye.

Leanne ElliottI think, you know what, I think a lot of today's episode can be summed up by you're not alone.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottAnd you can and should be going to people and asking for help as a manager, as an employee. You don't have to suffer in silence. You don't have to have all the answers. Go to the experts that, that in your organization that can change it. We can talk to you about, you know, different EAP programs or perks that does free counseling, or, you know, book a— get them to book an appointment with their GP as a first point of call. We can tell you all that, but really the organizational context is going to be so different. The best thing you can do is start by understanding what is already in place in your organization, what you have access to. Whether you're an individual, whether you're a manager, that's the place to start to ask for help.

Al ElliottFabulous. Fabulous. So, coming up this Thursday, we have an amazing interview that actually ended up as a complete masterclass on how to avoid harassment in the workplace. Sounds like a scary thing. Actually, the guest is really funny and, um, and, uh, you're gonna enjoy it. So, I asked lots of questions like, what do you do when you want to comfort a crying colleague, but you're worried about harassment claims? Is it harassment if your boss keeps liking all your Instagram posts? And should you ban swearing from the workplace if just one person is offended?

Leanne ElliottYes, we are joined once again by the amazing Dr. Enya Doyle. Regular listeners will know that name. She was part of our Hot Takes earlier this year, late last year. Um, Dr. Enya Doyle, also known as the Harassment Doctor, who helps organisations navigate these tricky, tricky workplace situations. And trust me, her answers are Very good and also a little bit surprising.

Al ElliottYeah, some of them genuinely. It's like, this is, this is one of the favourite conversations we've had on the show. Yeah, when we were talking about who should interview it originally, I thought, oh no, only the psychologist should interview. And then Leanne pointed out very quite rightly that actually it should be someone who's got business experience, but not necessarily HR experience, who should interview. So I did, and, uh, it was really interesting. Don't miss it.

Leanne ElliottIt really is a great interview. And if you really can't wait until then, you want more from us. Go back. We've got lots of episodes. Maybe go back to right at the beginning. Don't judge us though. Very different vibe, very different podcasters with very different ideas. Um, you can head over to our YouTube. There's, uh, some, some added content on there. Head over to LinkedIn. That's where all the conversations and discussions continue between episodes. We're also on the Instagram. We're also on the TikTok. Or you can book in a call with us. We always leave a link directly in the show notes. And with that in mind, we also have Other resources in the show notes if you are struggling at the moment, including some awesome resources from Mind and the number for Samaritans in the UK and BeFrienders worldwide.

Al ElliottSo we will see you on Thursday for some harassment fun. Not sure those 2 words have ever been put together, nor should they. So until then, Leanne, have you got anything else to add?

Leanne ElliottNo.

Al ElliottAll right, we'll see you soon.

Leanne ElliottI don't think I can top harassment fun.

Al ElliottThat's the hashtag of the episode, #harassmentfun. See you soon. Bye. Bye-bye.