Episode 314 · 30 June 2026 · 51:57
Why do we all love an underdog? PLUS! Responsible A.I., Ford's human rehiring spree AND the psychology of disagreements.
Why do we all love an underdog? PLUS! Responsible A.I., Ford's human rehiring spree AND the psychology of disagreements.
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NatWest's responsible AI training for 60,000 staff
news roundup#ai#training#responsible-ai#banking
Ford's AI rollback and human rehiring spree
news roundup#ai#automation#hiring#human-touch
Talk or type? The psychology of disagreements
news roundup#communication#conflict#psychology#disagreement
Truth or Lie: Do we all love an underdog?
truth or lie#underdog#psychology#truth#lie
Show notes
Why Do We All Love an Underdog? PLUS! Responsible AI, Ford's Human Rehiring Spree & The Psychology of Disagreements
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down NatWest's bold move to train all 60,000 staff in responsible AI, Ford's humbling reversal as it rehires 300 veteran engineers, and the science proving you should talk it out, not type it out. Plus, in Truth or Lie: do we really love an underdog?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. NatWest commits to responsible AI training for all 60,000 staff While many companies rush headfirst into AI deployment, NatWest is taking a human-centric approach. They've announced mandatory AI and data ethics training for every single employee, rolling out principles built in partnership with the University of Edinburgh's Edinburgh Futures Institute. The most fascinating stat? Over 50% of staff opted into extra training off their own back. With regulation still lagging behind, the bank is setting its own standard for corporate judgment and digital responsibility.
NatWest case study → NatWest insights article →
2. Ford's AI rollback: rehiring 300 human engineers In a major corporate pivot, Ford has confirmed it's rehiring more than 300 veteran quality inspectors after its automated, AI-driven quality checks failed to match human engineering expertise. Ford learned the hard way that automation can't replicate decades of tacit institutional knowledge. These veteran engineers are returning to factory floors not just to inspect vehicles, but to mentor the next generation and properly train the AI systems moving forward.
3. Talk or type? The psychological reality of disagreements When friction arises at work, our immediate instinct is often to hide behind a carefully drafted email or Slack message. But new research featured by the British Psychological Society highlights that talking it out outperforms typing every single time. Spoken conversations naturally foster more active listening language, lower conflict, and build better mutual understanding. Despite this, 84% of people still choose text over talk. Al and Leanne discuss why it's time to pick up the phone.
🧠 Truth or Lie: "We All Love an Underdog"
From global sports tournaments to workplace dynamics, there's an assumption that humans are universally wired to root for the underdog. Leanne dives into the behavioural science — including the "effort heuristic" and why we value struggle over raw talent. But this preference comes with a massive catch: the moment the stakes get high or personal risk is involved, our support for the underdog evaporates.
Verdict: It's true — but it's not a blind one. We love an underdog, but we need to believe they've actually earned the right to be there.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three real-world questions from the listener mailbag, tackled live:
- The Accidental Manager: "Nobody prepared me for management. I got promoted because I was good at my job, but managing people is a completely different skill. What is the one thing you wish someone had taught you before you took the role?"
- The Workplace Drain: How do you handle watching a line manager slowly drain the happiness out of a stellar colleague when it's happening outside your department?
- Pre-Meeting Chit-Chat: Is a leader being a misery for wanting to skip the weekend catch-up and get straight to business, or is casual social time a vital team-building tool?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottI know you've heard of companies prioritising AI, but have you heard of any prioritising responsible AI?
Al ElliottWhat the hell are you talking about?
Leanne ElliottWell, apparently, according to Jake Tuber last week, that's what I sound like.
Al ElliottYeah, but don't forget you did a slightly Cockney Brummie accent as well.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it was, it was kind of giving somewhere between Dick Van Dyke and I dunno, Emily Blunt?
Al ElliottYes, that's a really good— Dick Van Blunt. Yes. Anyway, we're doing the intro, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottSorry. As I was saying, I know you've heard of companies prioritising AI, but have you heard of any prioritising responsible AI? Well, NatWest Bank are on a mission to equip their employees with the skills and confidence to use AI responsibly. All 60,000 of them. Is this just a PR piece or is it a step towards a more human approach to AI?
Al ElliottWell, also this week, talking of AI, Yesterday, Ford backtracked on their AI rollout and have gone on a hiring spree for humans. Who would've thought it? I'll explain exactly what happened and why their AI— AI— AI-fication, is that a word? Why their AI rollout didn't work.
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, we all love an underdog. Or do we? Since a certain US reporter had a pop at Bosnian Hercegovina, it feels like the rest of the world are rooting for them. Come on, Bozzy! So I'll be walking you through the science of why you are feeling this way very shortly.
Al ElliottAnd in the Workplace Surgery, what An anonymous listener asks, what do you wish someone had told you before you became a manager? They've been promoted without any training and are asking us for some words of wisdom.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to.
Leanne ElliottAnd my name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, and I'm here to answer them. And together, we'll help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWell, we've got a new intro, Sean. We will be talking about Oblong next week because Sean O'Shea, he said, what the hell is Oblong? It's like, that's our company, we should be promoting it. Anyway, we'll be right back after a quick word from our— talking promotion, nice link— after a quick word from our—
Leanne ElliottYou've all heard HubSpot though, haven't you?
Al ElliottSee you in a second. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello, hello. Welcome back, Lee.
Leanne ElliottAl.
Al ElliottI saw something today. Now, those people who are regular listeners know that we live in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Leanne ElliottAye.
Al ElliottWe specifically live in Herzegovina.
Leanne ElliottWe do.
Al ElliottAnd I saw a great post. Now, I don't know if it was a parody. I hope it wasn't. An American who tweeted, I think.
Leanne ElliottOh, it won't be. It won't be.
Al ElliottGo on. I said basically, what? It's not fair. Why does the USA have to play 2 countries when everyone else only has to play one? Why are we playing Bosnia and Herzegovina?
Leanne ElliottOutrageous.
Al ElliottWhat I love is that someone replied and said, Bosnia in here? Let me just explain what happens. Bosnia plays the first half, then we sub in Herzegovina for the second half. Obviously hilarity ensued. This person got even more indignant and go, we USA, USA, USA. Yeah. So anyway, what else have you seen?
Leanne ElliottYeah. I mean, the Americans aren't doing themselves many favors at the World Cup at the minute, are they? I mean, is it true that they basically deported Iran the minute that they got knocked out? I don't know. I feel like I heard this. I don't know if it's true.
Al ElliottLet's pretend it's true. This is an official— we're a proper podcast.
Leanne ElliottWe can spread things. Let's pretend it's true. And of course, Abigail Velez, was that her name? The reporter who was like, I don't even know where Bosnia is. I couldn't point it out on a map. It's like, that says so much more about you than it does about Bosnia and Herzegovina. Yeah, I did have a good bit of banter with Jake about that, actually. I'm not sure if you saw the map that he created for me.
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottHe put it in the comments section of my post yesterday, basically with the USA in the middle of the world map and explaining who everybody else is. So basically, the UK is like where it rains, Canada is where it's cold and they say eh a lot. Australia, interesting but very far away.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYes. Anyway.
Al ElliottSounds like a lot of fun there.
Leanne ElliottIt's a lot of fun. I think it's a visual. You need to probably go see it really. But the World Cup, Al didn't understand why I was forcing him to watch football since Sunday because it's the knockouts now.
Al ElliottNow, I enjoy watching football. I just know nothing about it.
Leanne ElliottBut usually once it gets into knockouts, you're like, Yeah. Yeah. So on Sunday, I was like, should we watch the football? You were like, yeah, if you want. I was like, oh no.
Al ElliottJapan-Brazil or something. You were like—
Leanne ElliottLast night.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd you were like, meh.
Al ElliottI'm not fussed. And then I only realized this morning that I'd been reading the Google tables wrong. So Japan's out.
Leanne ElliottGermany's out. Japan is out. Germany's out. Shock, shock, shock. And the Netherlands. I watched both penalty shoots out this morning and they were really bad. Both of them were really bad. Like, they might as well have just flipped a coin because nobody could put the ball in that net. Really? Yeah, but interesting. I did feel for Japan though. I thought that they played really well against Brazil and Brazil just nicked it in the last minute, didn't they?
Al ElliottSorry, sorry, US listeners. It's not necessarily that we're like, we don't know, we do like USA. We like America as well. A lot of Americans.
Leanne ElliottUSA, USA.
Al ElliottIt's just that it's a proper Goliath.
Leanne ElliottWell, this is where we live as well. It's not just a random team we decided to support over America. It's where we live and where we call home. So of course we are supporting Bosnia-Herzegovina. And if the USA beats them, well, we wish you well.
Al ElliottWe wish you well. We wish you well. Yes. So, Leigh, you're up for time for your favourite time of the week?
Leanne ElliottYeah, let's do it.
Al ElliottCue the jingle.
Leanne ElliottThat's my line. Honestly, I've been waiting one week.
Al ElliottSon of a bitch stole my line. Apparently that was—
Leanne ElliottDid you know that was improvised?
Al ElliottI was just gonna say that. It was improvised. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. Oh, we miss him. We miss him.
Leanne ElliottWe do.
Al ElliottRobin Williams. Okay, so Leigh, what have you seen?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so I saw this from NatWest. How long do you reckon it would take to train every single person in your business about how to use AI responsibly. And apparently NatWest reckon that they're going to train 60,000 of their staff, put through this mandatory AI and data training in about 2 to 3 months. Right.
Al ElliottOkay. Good luck. Good luck.
Leanne ElliottIt's ambitious, but I admire it. So yeah, this builds on something NatWest Group published a bit earlier before it hit the news. It was actually in Ivy's newsletter that I saw this. If you are interested in AI but find it massively intimidating, definitely go and follow Ivy Jobs. They are AI trainers and they're both founders, have been on the show before. They're now funded by Stephen Bartlett, but don't let that put you off. They're incredible at what they do. So go and, go and have a look at their website. They do lots of free courses and sign up for their newsletter.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottA case study was done, a bespoke AI and data ethics programme that NatWest ran for their leaders in partnership with the University of Edinburgh. That one was multi-day on campus, led by Professor Shannon Vallor, with academics from philosophy, informatics, and the law school all teaching. the same room of people. So leadership layer kind of got a deep version, and now they're rolling out the principles to everybody. So NatWest's Head of Responsible A.I.— that's a job title I'd not heard of before— Dr. Paul Dongha. How do you pronounce that? D-O-N-G-H-A.
Al ElliottTrying so hard not to be puerile and stupid here. So yes, so Dr. Dongha.
Leanne ElliottDongha says the goal is to equip colleagues with the skills and confidence to use AI responsibly as it becomes embedded in how the bank runs day to day. And this is a stat that actually I thought was quite interesting. Beyond the mandatory modules, over 50% of staff have opted into extra training.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottThat's— I'm sure L&D practitioners listening will go, what? Oh, really? Wow. Yeah. What do we think? Thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, that makes sense. I think obviously when you're talking about dealing with something as important as money, then you do need responsibility. If you were like a building firm using AI just to make things a bit easier, you probably don't need to worry too much about the responsibility side of it because that's probably managed by a human. But this, this makes total sense. I am surprised at this 50% opt-in. I'm wondering if, I wonder if that's been massaged a little bit. We don't have all of the figures. Like maybe it's like, oh, you get a bonus because I think a lot of people generally more people are skeptical about, about companies rolling out AI.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo I'd be surprised if it's just like 50% of people just went, yeah, cool, that sounds amazing. But maybe it is. Hopefully it is. Well done.
Leanne ElliottYeah, but that's how they presented it. And on the flip side of that, you could say that people are afraid of AI. So actually, the more I learn about it and the more I engage in this training, maybe I'll be more skilled. And if there is a round of layoffs, I've done some training that other people haven't.
Al ElliottBit Sun Tzu where you know your enemy.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. Enemy close, friends close, enemies closer and all that. Yeah.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottI thought it was interesting because there isn't really any regulation around this right now, even in the financial services sector. And we did see this at the beginning of the year, didn't we? It was reported that there's gonna be lots of behavioural scientists and psychologists being recruited into financial institutions to talk about ethical and responsible AI. So I think choosing to train the entire workforce, making it mandatory, And just in a few months, I think that's a really good sign from NatWest, kind of saying, this is how seriously we're taking it. And most importantly, how serious we're taking ethical AI and responsible AI. You had a story about NatWest about this time last year that we both liked. Was that something about how they were hiring people? I can't remember now.
Al ElliottI have no clue.
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottGenuinely no clue.
Leanne ElliottI think my point is this isn't the first positive story like this we've seen from NatWest. So I, yeah, I think it's really, really interesting. So they're going to be looking at how people actually use AI day to day, what they trust it with, what they double-check, what they assume it's got right. And it kind of goes beyond that technology question, doesn't it? It's that behaviour question. As much as you say if you're a builder using it, it might not be as relevant. I think in terms of accuracy is the real question, isn't it? Because we all over-rely on it a little bit and just assume it's right. I'm going to hold my hand up on that as well sometimes. So yeah, I thought it was interesting. I like it. I will leave a link in the show notes. Our thoughts. No, done that. What do you think?
Al ElliottIt's going so well. Well, talking of AI, and we just, you know, we, I don't see what Leanne's going to say before and she doesn't see what I'm going to say before. So we make our notes separately. So I saw an article on AI about Ford. So basically, this is— Ford is, as you know, Ford cars. It's a major employer who for the first time are admitting on the record that AI didn't work the way they hoped. So here's what happened. So Ford have just confirmed they've rehired more than 300 veteran quality inspectors. Rehired. So this happened after its AI-driven quality checks— I'm reading from this— failed to match what those human engineers were actually doing. This came out in Bloomberg, but I saw on BBC, and Ford's VP of Vehicle Hardware Engineering is a guy called Charles Poon, which again, I've got to stop being so childish. So basically, this is what he said. Artificial intelligence is a fantastic tool, but it's only as good as the information you use to train it. Well, we all know that. However, what happened was we said, let me just double-check, because it was about this time last year, Jim Farley, Uh, said AI will leave a lot of white-collar— Jim Farley is the CEO— will leave a lot of white-collar people behind. And then in October, uh, then, uh, Kumar Golotra, um, who is the COO, was boasting about deploying AI across the entire industrial system. However, and this is what they did, they did 900 AI cameras so they catch quality issues. Um, uh, they did all kinds of AI stuff, and today they're like, shit. Didn't really work. I have to go and get those knowledge workers back. And I think they've rehired them. And I'm hoping they've rehired them on a bit of a salary bump.
Leanne ElliottYou'd hope so, wouldn't you?
Al ElliottWhat are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI enjoyed how you said COO. I thought you were surprised by that second O. COO. I was.
Al ElliottI was thinking CFO.
Leanne ElliottCOO.
Al ElliottThat's a great C-suite term. COO. He's the chief officer of realization. Oh, oh, oh, I see now.
Leanne ElliottFunny.
Al ElliottWhat did you— I'm gonna be thinking while you're talking about all this. Pull it together.
Leanne ElliottOh, see, oh, oh.
Al ElliottAbout once every 90 days. I make Leanne laugh so hard that she cries. And honestly, it is my proudest, proudest moment of the year. And we've hit number 1 in management. We've hit number 2 in business. We—
Leanne ElliottChief Officer Realisation! This is some of your best work.
Al ElliottI'm trying to pad here, aren't you? Oh, pull it together, love.
Leanne ElliottI enjoy that Ford have taken accountability for their mistake and been transparent about it. I hope those people they rehired got a nice little pay bump and lots of other benefits they didn't have before. I think it's just a good lesson, isn't it? If you rush this stuff, then it's probably not going to work out very well. So yeah, good for you, Ford, I guess, in the end.
Al ElliottYeah, I guess. I think the, the key thing, which that what Ford have done is they got rid of all of their knowledge basically. So they said, right, we're getting rid of all these veteran engineers, we'll get rid of them and replace them with AI. But they forgot to ask the knowledge engineer and the knowledge workers what they knew. And so, and that's what they should have done. Now what we might be reporting in a year's time saying they've just got rid of 300 of the new rehires because they've rehired them to retrain their AI. Yeah. So if I was going back, I'd be a bit like, Hmm. I'm not sure you're suspicious. Don't be suspicious. If you haven't seen Parks and Recreation, that's one of the best, one of the best lines. Leanne said that to me when I was buying her a birthday present in the supermarket and she was shopping one side and I found her Hendrick's gin, which you don't often get in this country. I found it and I'm like, oh my God, this is gonna make a perfect birthday present. So I started to walk past her and she came out of an aisle. So I just basically put my head there, looked the other way, popped it under my coat and walked away.
Leanne ElliottAnd ran.
Al ElliottI just ran.
Leanne ElliottYou didn't just walk, you ran.
Al ElliottLike, don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious. Anyway, Lee, what else you seen this week, my love?
Leanne ElliottWhen you disagree with somebody at work, do you think it's better to say it out loud or type it out?
Al ElliottOh, oh, I can see pros and cons for each.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which one would you go for? Just would feel more comfortable for you?
Al ElliottI think I would rather type it out, send a message. However, I'd be worried that'd be received as someone who As me not having the balls to look you in the eye and say, you laugh too much on the pod.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think most of us would feel more comfortable typing it out. But according to new research I saw this week in the BPS Research Digest, that is the wrong call.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So it's written up by a wonderful person called Emily Reynolds, covering a study published in Nature Communications.
Al ElliottOne of my favourite periodicals, that.
Leanne ElliottMe too. This was from a group of researchers at Imperial College London and UC Berkeley. Have you ever noticed how Berkeley is spelt? I wonder that Americans allowed that.
Al ElliottWe would call it Barkley.
Leanne ElliottWell, I don't know if we'd call it Barkley. It's more that it's like, it's Berkeley.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottBut they say Berkeley. But usually they're quite particular, aren't they, about too many, like— anyway, bashing Americans.
Al ElliottLike aluminium.
Leanne ElliottJake's not here. Sorry.
Al ElliottHabit. We look forward to your letters.
Leanne ElliottSo anyway, yes, the researchers wanted to know whether talking versus typing actually changes how an argument goes. So they ran a series of experiments with more than 1,500 people, over 1,800 conversations. Each person disagreed with a stranger about a hot political topic, some out loud, some in writing. And afterwards, everyone said how well they understood the other person, how much conflict they felt, And what they thought of that, that person.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd the result held up every single time. So the people who talked it out understood each other better. They felt less conflict. They liked the other person more and were more likely to end up seeing things the same way compared to the people who wrote it down. So the researchers found that talking naturally brings out more I hear you language and more of those kind of little signals that you're listening and you're open to that person's point of view. You're not kind of just talking and waiting for your term— your turn. Now, oddly, when people did use that type of language in writing, it did work, and it did work actually better than speak or speech, but they just didn't really use it very much. Nobody kind of bothered to type because it felt so forced. I hear you, I'm listening type things. But the thing that was really interesting, in the final study, the researchers asked people how they choose to handle a disagreement. So despite Speaking, producing the better outcome every time, 84% said they'd choose to write.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottAnd only 7% said they'd speak and 9% said video call. So people think writing is safer because it gives you time to craft the perfect response. But the evidence basically says that instinct is largely wrong. Thoughts?
Al ElliottI, yeah, do you know what? It's down to like the whole fear of public speaking. People would rather die than go on stage, literally.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottUm, and so I think it's almost like the fear of conflict. It is, if you write it, you can spend 40 minutes, like, I'm, I'm type— I'm typing you. I don't know why I'm doing that. If you write it, you spend 40 minutes moving it around, rereading it. Um, I'll get someone else to read it. I do this quite often with you, Al. Like, I've written this email, it's a little bit of a contentious issue. Can you reread it? Whereas when you're saying it, you're just saying it. So I can totally see how your preference would be to write it. But actually, I can also see why saying it will make much more sense because you get, like, you know, words are like 8% and 92% is nonverbal, that kind of thing. So yeah, I can definitely see that.
Leanne ElliottI think you get that immediate feedback when you talk to somebody as well, don't you? So if you are being a bit blunt, you might see that eyes of the— the raise of the eyebrows or the eyes widening might make you rein it back a little bit because you say people typically just Don't want that level of confrontation just for the sake of it. I mean, I thought it was really interesting. I mean, it is of course worth saying there are some limitations. These were strangers, they were disagreeing about politics, it was relatively low stakes. So if it was kind of a heated disagreement with a colleague, we might see very different results. But what I thought was very interesting was the gap between what people choose and what actually works. So if you are a business owner, I think that's a takeaway. Next time you're kind of tempted to to kind of send off a carefully worded email or a Slack message to try and resolve a disagreement. It might be better to just pick up the phone or jump on a Zoom call and have that conversation face to face.
Al ElliottInteresting. Interesting. So if you are interested in this kind of thing, then we've got a workshop coming up in August, no, September time with the Right Honourable Steve Baker MP. The guy who pushed through Brexit, which ruined our lives. And I told him this. But what's interesting is he now has an agency with a guy called Paul, and their sole thing is how to have disagreements at work. So we will definitely put NIST research to him and seeing what he says. And also we're gonna have a real-life argument about Brexit. That would be interesting because—
Leanne ElliottI'm not, am I?
Al ElliottNo, I am.
Leanne ElliottOkay, good.
Al ElliottNo, you're gonna— it'll escalate with you. Anyway, right, all the links are in the—
Leanne ElliottAnd another thing.
Al ElliottAll the links are in the show notes as ever. We will take a short break and then afterwards we'll come back with our truth or lie. We'll see you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are All 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agents To create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work, and we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is; it's such it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioral science in your marketing, but there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better? Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. Welcome back. It is time for our truth or lie. This is the time of the week where we take a popular workplace idea and ask if the research actually backs it Up. Today's question, do we all love an underdog? Now, there's something about a person or a team or someone like they're David and Goliath. If you're facing impossible odds, we, we root for them. We want them to win. But is it actually true? Is rooting for the underdog a universal human impulse, or is it a story we tell ourselves that doesn't quite hold up? Leanne has done the research and she's here to tell you what happens. No, what happened?
Leanne ElliottI love an underdog unless they're playing Against Liverpool.
Al ElliottFair.
Leanne ElliottWhich I think maybe gives you a hint as to where this is going. Of course, I need to start with what we mean by an underdog. So in the research, it does have a pretty specific definition. It's somebody who's got more chance of losing, or the odds are stacked against them to begin with because there is less money, lower expectations, it's not their fault. So I think kind of the USA-Bosnia is a good example here. Bosnia and Herzegovina most certainly The underdogs. So do we root for the underdog? This is the evidence for, and the short answer is basically yes.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottIt shows up in a lot of places. So the most direct evidence comes from Vandello, Goldschmied, and Richards, who ran 4 studies in 2007. In one, 71 people were shown Olympic swimming matchups between countries with very different medal histories, and they consistently backed the nation with fewer medals. The same country gained or lost support depending purely on who they were up against. So when Belgium was playing Sweden, Belgium was popular because Sweden has won more medals in the past.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottBut when Belgium was against Slovenia, because Slovenia had won less medals, they were the favourite. So the same country gained or lost support depending purely on who it was up against. So Belgium was popular when facing Sweden, but lost support When facing Slovenia.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottIn another study, 60 people read about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but were shown different maps. So one made Israel look large on the page. The other showed the whole Middle East, making Israel look tiny. When Israel looked large, 70% of people called Palestinians the underdog and sympathised with them. When the map zoomed out and Israel looked small, 62% switched.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottThey called Israelis the underdog instead. So the same conflict, same facts, different map was the only thing. So that visualisation of an underdog made people switch. Then we have a 2021 study, which is a bit more recent, that tested feelings people naturally tune into when they watch 2 people interact, one powerful, one not. And across 6 experiments with around 800-odd participants, people consistently focused on the emotions of the less powerful person. So in one experiment, 84% of participants tuned into the powerless person's feelings, and only 13% focused on the powerful one.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottInteresting. And it crosses cultures. So Goldschmidt, Gailey, and Keith tested underdog support across Israel, Japan, and China. This was in 2018. And all 3 countries, of course, have very different values, different political systems, but In all 3, people backed the underdog over the favourite. The size of the effect was almost identical regardless of where participants were from.
Al ElliottInteresting.
Leanne ElliottIt is interesting. So the obvious question is, well, why? Why do we do it? Well, Vardello's team got to this in one of their studies. They had 57 people watch the exact same basketball game, but told half of them one team was the heavy favourite. And the people who thought they were watching the underdog rated them as trying harder Even though they were watching identical footage. So it's that perception of effort, not talent, that made people like them more. And that connects with something that psychologists called effort heuristic. So it's basically a tendency for us to value things more when we think it produces— it's required greater effort to produce.
Al ElliottYeah. Phil from Nudge has talked about this a lot. Open kitchens is another example. Piece of art that someone said, AI made this, and everyone said, that's a bit of shit. And then someone else said, someone took 10,000 hours to make it, and they said, brilliant.
Leanne ElliottExactly. Yeah. So it's not just a case of admiring the underdog. We just instinctively read that struggle as proof that they're giving more effort, and that makes us value them more.
Al ElliottCool. So that sounds to me like, as far as I'm concerned, I'm like, right, the underdog exists, that the underdog syndrome exists.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's never quite that simple though, is it?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottIt's never quite that straightforward. There's nuance. So because the research, yes, shows we root for the underdog, it does also show that support has pretty clear limits. So it's not just always the underdog. So there was a researcher called Kim who ran a study in 2008 where they asked people to choose between a large established water testing company and a small 2-year-old startup. When the stakes were low, for example, testing water for hardness, people backed the underdog startup. But when the stakes were high and they were testing for mercury toxicity, they abandoned the underdog and chose the big company. Same underdog, same disadvantage, but there was higher personal consequences. So when it really mattered, the emotional pull of the underdog wasn't enough.
Al ElliottThat makes sense.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I mean, the same study also found something interesting about art. So people rooted for the underdog artist, but when they looked at the exact same painting, they rated it as lower quality when they thought it was made by the underdog than when they thought it was made by an established artist. So we want the underdog to win, but we don't fully trust their output.
Al ElliottYeah, I suppose. Right. So it would be like self-taught plasterer, for example, against a huge plastering conglomerate. Then you'd be like, oh, you know, I want the— I'm going to choose Bill because he's self-taught. He's just taught himself from the very beginning. Self-taught But if you're an untaught brain surgeon, not so much. Not so much. Not so much.
Leanne ElliottHigher stakes.
Al ElliottYes, higher stakes.
Leanne ElliottExactly. The same team also tested how automatic this response is, which I thought was interesting. So they showed 60 people a 15-second animation of grey circles moving across a screen. One circle struggled to climb a hill, and another moved very freely. Participants consistently rooted for the struggling circle. Despite it basically just being a dot, it's got no backstory, it's got no face, no context, no consequences. The underdog instinct kicked in anyway, which I think tells us something quite important, that it isn't a considered moral judgment, this supporting the underdog. It's fast, it's automatic, and automatic reactions tend to be fairly shallow. So the research, I thought, described this in a really beautiful way. It's a mile-wide, an inch deep. Uh, so that shallowness shows up in a number of different studies as well. So a study from 2020, underdog support was real, but the gap between the underdog and top dog support only widened significantly when the financial disparity between the two sides was made very, very visible. So when the resource gap was smaller, um, it was still unfair, it was just less obvious, and support for the underdog dropped. So if, for example, you're looking— you're watching Manchester City playing Chester, right? You're gonna go, oh well, Chester, come on, you know, massive disparity here. If you're watching City play United— that's probably a bad example because there's different reasons for that, isn't it? City versus Bournemouth. Yeah, then it's not— maybe they're both Premier League sides, it's not quite as much of an underdog, etc., etc. Does that make sense?
Al ElliottMakes sense.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And finally, a cross-cultural study, uh, found that support isn't unconditional. So when a team had low expectations, But it turned out they also had more money than their opponent, people withdrew their support entirely. So the underdog effect depends basically on the disadvantage being genuine and undeserved. So once people sense that disadvantage isn't real, then the sympathy kind of goes with it.
Al ElliottThat's a bit like, you know, when a struggling artist suddenly gets a big record deal, and then some people go, oh, sellout, sellout.
Leanne ElliottYeah, totally.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottTotally. Exactly.
Al ElliottGreat example.
Leanne ElliottGreat example.
Al ElliottThank you very much.
Leanne ElliottI'm gonna use it. Great example. So what, what are these studies telling us? Why is underdog, you know, come with all these conditions? Well, the research has basically offered 2 explanations. The first is that underdog support isn't really about the underdog at all. It's about fairness. So as humans, we back the disadvantaged party because it feels like the right way to restore balance. And the moment the disadvantage stops feeling undeserved, the kind of motivation goes with it. It was never really about them. It was about us trying to correct unfairness.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThe second explanation is that this is a shallow preference, not a deep one. So they just— it was described by Kim and colleagues as a moral badina. So a surface-level feeling that we're doing the right thing. as easy to hold when nothing is at stake. So your example about brain surgeons, perfect.
Al ElliottPatina, is that what you said?
Leanne ElliottIs that how you say it?
Al ElliottI don't know, I've never heard that word. I'm gonna write that down and use it later on.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, there you go. Is it truth or is it a lie? What's, what's your conclusion, Al?
Al ElliottI think basically the rough rule of thumb for me, what I think is when the stakes are low, then people will back the underdog. When the stakes are high, they won't. And there's nuance, like you said there, like if you find out, discover that the underdog is funded secretly by Musk, then you might go, oh, no, no, no. I remember back in the day me going, God, Elon Musk is quite a cool guy, isn't he? Because he was— there was a rich list maybe about 10 years ago, and he came out as the richest person in the world or something. And his tweet was like, well, that's interesting. Okay, back to work. And I was like, oh, I like you because— but now totally changed. Totally changed.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah, you nailed it. You nailed it. Is it true? Is it a lie? Yeah, it's true. But it's not a blind one.
Al ElliottIt's a nuanced one.
Leanne ElliottIt is a bit of it depends. So basically, we love an underdog, but we need to believe they've actually earned that status.
Al ElliottOh, that's a great summary of it. I love that. I love that. So, so what we should be doing with your map example there, we should be taking the map of Bosnia and Herzegovina and just putting the exact size of it into the United States. So, for example, I think there are— if anyone's from the UK, then Bosnia-Herzegovina, I think, is half the size of Wales with— twice the size of Wales with half as many people. And then you suddenly go, okay, I get an idea. And then if you take that, I bet there are— I bet there's no state in the United States that has got fewer occupants than Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Leanne ElliottI think you might be right.
Al ElliottYeah, I shall do some research for next week. Leanne, thank you so, so much. Talking of next week, oh, exciting. Next week, got another guest host. Not sure whether we should disclose who it is right now, but it's gonna be a very, very, very spicy and good one.
Leanne ElliottA brand new guest host.
Al ElliottBrand new guest host. Anyway, so it is time for my favourite time of the week. It's time for the World Famous Weekly Web Surgery with Leanne. Okay, so question, just in case anyone's like, anyone's first time listening, it's, it's a workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne, but every week I try and say it faster and faster. Question number 1, what do you wish someone had told you before you came and became a manager? Lee, this is interesting because you've been a manager and you study managers and you work with managers. I was a manager once and I was terrible at it. Okay.
Leanne ElliottYou weren't at all. You were a brilliant manager.
Al ElliottYou're very cute.
Leanne ElliottBut you were.
Al ElliottNobody prepared— this is what a person writes— nobody prepared me for management. I got promoted because I was good at my job. Classic story. It turns out that it's a completely different skill to manage people than just be an IC. IC, I think, is independent contributor. Is that the word?
Leanne ElliottIndividual.
Al ElliottIndividual. What's the one thing, Leanne, you wish someone had taught you before you got the role?
Leanne ElliottSo I will, I will answer your question, reader. I promise. My Not my first management job, but probably my first chunky management job. I met the HR manager of our organisation, which I recently got back in touch with. We kind of exchanged a few comments on LinkedIn. Sat me down in a hotel on Canal Street in Manchester.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd I had a cup of coffee and he went, just to be clear, it's about the first thing he said to me, just to be clear, just because you're now a manager doesn't make you indispensable.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottAnd I was like, okay. He's like, don't think that makes you safe. Don't think that makes you untouchable. You are only as good as your last day in management, and this is a target-driven, fast-paced role. If you don't cut it, you don't cut it.
Al ElliottThat's brutal, man.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is. But then equally, clear expectations set from day one. So, you know, and actually, this, this, this HR manager was fantastic and very, very supportive to me and, and lots of other people in the business. So yeah, fair enough. So, I think that's probably one thing that I'm glad I was told, you know, that it— you're not safe just because you're now in this kind of position of hierarchy. But I guess the one thing I wish I'd been told was you don't have to have all the answers, and it's okay to ask for help. Because I think the challenge I experienced in this role came down to that, me thinking I had to do it all myself, I had to have all the answers, and I couldn't lean on anybody or admit I didn't know. And as a manager, that is not your job. Your, your only job, if you wanna boil it down, is to make the people in your team's job easier every single day. Just that little bit easier to help them, them perform. Um, if they look good, you look good.
Al ElliottCan I ask you, how does that fit in with another management technique by, um, by, uh, your ex-favourite manager, John, uh, sadly no longer with us, but incredible guy, and his legacy lives on on this podcast. He said, hide the wires. So, if I'm hearing those 2 things, I'm thinking, hide the wires, and, but also say you don't know. How does that fit together?
Leanne ElliottSo, hide the wires, what John was basically talking about was emotional regulation. So, if I'm stressed and having a really bad time and feeling under pressure, I shouldn't be putting that onto my team because that negative emotion stress will spread. It's contagious. Yes, go talk to him about these things when I'm frustrated, but hide the wires in terms of hide the stress of in the moment talking to your team. So if, for example, corporate were asking us to do something that I thought was absolutely ridiculous, Mm-hmm. then I'm not gonna go into my team and go, oh my gosh, you will not believe what they're asking us to do now. They do this, it's ridiculous how we expect to do that, because I'm putting my thoughts and feelings onto the team. in a situation that is not helpful because a change has to happen. It also is putting an expectation on them to agree with me. They have to go, oh yeah, it is terrible. And then you've got a whole team that is against the change that needs to happen or the decision that's been made. You don't know. So if you go to your people and go, so we've been asked to do this, and I'm curious to get your thoughts on it, and see how the team reacts. And it might be they go, do you know what? That's not a bad idea actually. But do you know what would be better is if we just tweaked it here, it would make it easier in implementation.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottOkay, cool. I'll go back and see if we can do that. I didn't know the answer to that. I wasn't able in my kind of my position, not as close to the frontline and in my emotional state to go to corporate, oh, this might work, but we just need to tweak this implementation. I've gone to my team, gone, I don't have the answer. What do we think? And they've given the answers to take back to make it work. Excellent.
Al ElliottThat makes perfect sense. Thank you very much. Okay, so that's— What about you?
Leanne ElliottWhat's yours?
Al ElliottListen to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottNo, come on.
Al ElliottUm, one of the things I did, and I think I mentioned it on a couple of, um, episodes ago, one of the things we did in, uh, the beer business, we had about, just for context, we had about 25 part-time staff, uh, 1 full-time and 25 part-time. Um, and what we did was something called the board monkey. So there was a job where you had, this is way before AI and spreadsheets and stuff. Well, not before spreadsheets, but so every order for beer came out and was printed out and there was 3 copies. One went to the customer, one went to the driver, and one stayed in the office. And so we had a board where we'd peg these, um, it was horrible health and safety. I just nailed a load of nails out, sticking out from the board. So if someone tripped, it would have been terrible. But you'd go and take the order and then you'd sort of track it through until it was delivered. Everybody had a go on that. So everybody knew what it was like to manage the orders, including the drivers, including me, including like the backup back office staff. Everyone had a go at that. And that really helped, I think, because everyone knew how difficult it was to manage all of that. what the moving parts were for the entire process. The second thing we did was people would shadow. So a person who was on the phones would go out and go out one night with the drivers and see what it's like to actually go and deliver these things. A driver would come and listen in on their phones and listen and hear how people dealt with the orders. And then— oops, sorry, that's my phone. That's my alarm just to turn off the water for watering the plants. And then what really happened there was that when the driver, if the driver saw a mistake on the order, They would know, oh, well, actually, it's not as easy as I thought, just sitting on your backside taking these. They'd be like, fair enough, a little bit more like ringing up and going, BoardMonkey, there seems to be a mistake on this. I can't find this address. So that really worked. And it was the other way around, I think.
Leanne ElliottNice. Breeding teamwork, empathy, understanding. Lovely.
Al ElliottThis is 2002, 2003. I was like 25. I had no idea what I was doing.
Leanne ElliottBut you did, Al. I hate it when you say stuff like that.
Al ElliottSorry.
Leanne ElliottAnd I believe some of our listeners do as well.
Al ElliottOkay. Okay.
Leanne ElliottMultiple feedback saying that you need to, you need to stop pretending to be the fool because you're clearly not.
Al ElliottWell, let's find out. See if I can read out question 2 without making a fool of myself. Uh, so, uh, the title of this is, have you ever watched work beat the happiness out of someone? Jesus Christ, man.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottSo, uh, this person writes in and said, someone who used to light up a room, was always sunny, always positive, was slowly losing it. Month by month, I watched it— see them— watched it drain out of them. I'm pretty sure it's their line manager that's at fault, but it's not my department, so I feel like there's nothing I can do. Is this just what some workplaces do to people? Is it my responsibility to step in? So just so I understand this, Leanne, I think what they're saying is they have a colleague, perhaps in a different department, perhaps a different manager, You've seen them a year ago, they were brilliant, they were lovely, and now you've just seen them just have the work beaten out of them. Do they do anything? Can they do anything?
Leanne ElliottI mean, there is— there's layers to this, isn't there? Is it just a case that some workplaces push people to burn out? That's what you're describing. Somebody being sunny and always positive to being cynical. Somebody who loved their job to being completely detached from it. Somebody who lit up the room to being completely exhausted. You're describing the symptoms of of burnout. And yes, workplaces do that to people, and there can be a variety of reasons, including the line manager. If you're not in their department, if you're not a direct member of their team or their management line, then it's not your responsibility to stop it. It's not. And it's really hard to watch somebody who has been such a brightness—
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne Elliottstart to dim that way, it's really, really hard, but it's not your responsibility. I remember talking to Sonya Shellard, you know, off of Ride the Wave.
Al ElliottOh, yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd she said to me that her mantra in things like this is, not my circus, not my monkeys. Apparently, it's an old Polish proverb or something. And I use that so much as well, because especially if you're an empathetic person and you want to make the workplaces great, you can feel the need to want to interfere. And really, you just have to kind of take a step back, take a breath, and say, not my circus, not my monkeys. It's not your responsibility to do so. That's not to say you can't have a conversation with this person as a, as a colleague, as a friend, as a work, you know, work colleague, and maybe just have a chat with them, see, see how they're doing, ask them some very open questions. How's it going? How have you been? And just see what, what they say. It might be it's got nothing to do with the manager at all. It could be something that's happening in their personal lives. It could be a colleague that's causing them. It could be a client that's giving them a headache. There could be lots of reasons, and in all likelihood, a combination of Of all of them. So, I think really the only thing you can do in this scenario is to have a conversation with them as a friend and colleague. And just often that conversation, as we've talked about before, listening to somebody, helping them talk through how they're feeling, can bring a lightness to them. But I think really that's the only thing that might be within your realm of responsibility, if that's the word that you want to use.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut beyond that, no, it's not, it's not your circus.
Al ElliottWhen you do sit down with someone, your job is not going to be to fix them. Your job is not going to be to cheer them up. And your job is not going to be to fire them up to go and do something else necessarily. It might be later on. But your job is to sit there and go, if it was Leanne, this is how I'd start the conversation to go, You got time for a coffee after, you know, after your meeting or something? Yeah, yeah, we're going for coffee. So you sit down for coffee and go, how's things? And if you're British, you'll go, yeah, yeah, not bad, not bad, not bad. And then this is how I'd approach it. Say, this is— maybe I'm wrong, but I have noticed over the last period of time, last 12 months, you seem to, to me, to have lost your spark a little bit at work.
Leanne ElliottIs—
Al Elliottam I just seeing something differently, or has something changed? Now, Lee, can you give me some feedback on that? Is that a non-judgmental question, a good way to start, or would you do something differently?
Leanne ElliottI know, I think that's a really good question. I'm slightly triggered by that because I once had a conversation with a manager who told me I'd lost my mojo, and I hadn't lost my mojo. It's just they were doing a really shitty job, which I proved when I got promoted out of that job into another one. Sorry, all about me. See, triggered. No, I don't think so. I think you don't I think it's keeping the language neutral, isn't it? I think telling somebody they've lost their sparkle could be— could hit a nerve if they know this is when they're feeling exhausted and they're trying to spin a million plates in the air. And now you're telling me I've lost my sparkle? Whereas I think you said, I've just noticed something's changed. You don't seem yourself. Is everything okay? Do you know what I mean? Something like that that is a bit more neutral. But that might be a gender thing. It could be a Leanne thing.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut I think the best coaching questions is exactly you said there, are just very open. And as you, you know, you give yourself a get out. I love that. Like, maybe it's just me. I like that.
Al ElliottOkay, brilliant. Well, there you go. You've got the benefit of me getting 90% of the way there and Leanne just adding that little 10% of psychology sprinkle on the top, which is great anyway. So, well, I hope this person who's writing in, the other person, is okay. That's a bit That's a bit, bit shit, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnyway. Okay, so I've got— let's brighten things up a little bit. Uh, so the 3rd one is, uh, about pre-meeting chitchat. Is that a British word or is that just an English language word?
Leanne ElliottChitchat does seem quite British, doesn't it?
Al ElliottWe, we do like alliteration, don't we? Chitchat. Chitchat. So this person says, every meeting my team spend the first 5 or 10 minutes just chatting. Nothing to do with work. It's just about weekends or Netflix or dogs or whatever. Usually I just sit there waiting for it to die down so we can get started. My partner says I need to lighten up, and maybe she's right, but we are busy and we always seem to run over. Am I just being a miserable sod here, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottNow, I, I think there's potentially something here which you're going to talk about.
Leanne ElliottGo on.
Al ElliottAnd I think you're going to talk about something on the neurodiversity spectrum where some people don't understand the purpose of chitchat.
Leanne ElliottRight, yeah, from the manager's perspective.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottYeah, fair.
Al ElliottThought. But you— sorry, I'm not here to answer it. You, you crack on.
Leanne ElliottNo, I think, I think you're right. That could be one of the reasons you find this frustrating if you are neurodiverse. That, that's probably why you find it frustrating. There's also just that, I guess, as a manager, you can feel pressure. You've got loads to do, you need to get on, you've got a tight day. There can be just this drive to just get stuff done and not be as patient for the kind of social aspects of work. But I think that's exactly it. These are social aspects of work that help with team cohesion and collaboration and communication and building these relationships that are so important to every aspect of work. And these are the things that You know, have been kind of used to justify the really harsh RTO mandates, the return to office mandates, because it's about collaboration relationships.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWell, how do you think that happens? Yes, it happens on work tasks, but it also happens talking about the latest thing on Netflix that you watched, or how your weekend was, or showing the picture of your new puppy. So, I think this is really on you to think about meeting management. If you accept that the first 5 minutes is gonna be this chatter, and you encourage this chatter, then you manage it in a way that's like, say it's a Zoom meeting, for example. It might be, you know, different if it's face-to-face, but say it's a— or it might be about the same. Say your meeting starts at 11, people are joining, people are chatting. You go, hi guys, yeah, welcome, welcome. Grab yourself, make yourself comfortable, grab a drink if you need to get a drink now. We're gonna start in about 5 minutes, yeah? And just set that boundary of how long this chitter chatter is gonna go on for. Then at 5 past 11, you go, right guys, um, oh, love that Netflix series as well, by the way.
Al ElliottWhat a show.
Leanne ElliottI'm gonna add that to my watchlist.
Al ElliottWhat's it called?
Leanne ElliottRight, let's crack on, a bit to get through here, and then go on. If it is one of those things where you really just have to crack on, then communicate that before the meeting. Just go, guys, I'm sorry, I've got a really tight 15 minutes to, to have this conversation with you. Um, you know I love our chit-chats at the beginning, but I'm not sure we're gonna have time for that today. I'm gonna jump straight in, but then obviously we finish earlier, then you can have, you know, that, that little coffee chat at the end. We did a great episode with Marmee, didn't we, on meetings and meeting etiquette and how to run them. Go and listen to that. She's written an entire book on how to do meetings, and she has phenomenal advice, which is basically that it's all about meeting management. So, if you're finding this frustrating, this is on your shoulders to solve and within your kind of control and responsibility to solve.
Al ElliottMakes a lot of sense. And I think From a manager's point of view, you might be thinking, okay, what? There's probably only 2 reasons why people chitchat at the beginning. It's either because they want to have the connection, and this is probably one of the only times they might be able to get the connection, or they're trying to avoid the actual work. And that's possibly, that is, that is a possibility. So it might be there. Well, if we chat long enough, then Lionel won't have time to give us little jobs. So either one of those has got, that's just the symptom. There might be a, there might be a root cause. So perhaps have a think about that. So if the neurodiversity thing is not applicable to you, Then obviously listen very, very carefully to what Leanne just said there. And also just consider, why are they doing it? Is it to avoid work or is it to get to establish a connection?
Leanne ElliottExcellent point.
Al ElliottThank you very much. Okay. So this Thursday, we are joined by a lovely guy called Andrew. Andrew is an expert at crisis, crises, I think.
Leanne ElliottCrises.
Al ElliottAnd he's gonna tell us how to deal with crises at work. Now, he's not just some guy who's learned how to deal with things.
Leanne ElliottHe—
Al Elliottremember Facebook? He was the guy who dealt with that crisis. Now, for obvious reasons, we can't get into the ins and outs of that specific thing, but he definitely does talk much more generally about how to manage it.
Leanne ElliottI pushed where I could.
Al ElliottYou did.
Leanne ElliottI pushed where I could.
Al ElliottYou did. And Andrew was very professional, went, I'm sorry, we're gonna have to move on.
Leanne ElliottYeah, unsurprisingly, very well media trained.
Al ElliottBut he's, uh, yes. So this is gonna be definitely an episode that you really, really want to listen to, even if you've not had a crisis, because it's a Because great lesson in how to manage let's be honest, it's probably going to come down the road at some point, isn't it? Everyone has a crisis.
Leanne ElliottWe talk about a lot of change as well and how to, how to manage change in an organisation. He gives lots of brilliant advice for leaders, um, for small businesses as well, not just large organisations. So definitely tune in.
Al ElliottBrilliant. So go and follow Leanne on LinkedIn because that's where the conversation continues. Uh, you can follow the page Truth, Lies and Work, but, uh, Leanne's really— go follow Leanne on LinkedIn. She is awesome.
Leanne ElliottWe've had a little flurry in people joining Truth, Lies and Work podcast page actually. Yeah, I think it's because we're posting a bit more on there, a few more Some from the archives as well. I've got some nice ones scheduled this week from last summer. Beautiful. But yeah, I think we've had about 200 new followers over the past couple of weeks.
Al ElliottNice. Yeah, nice.
Leanne ElliottThanks for that.
Al ElliottAnd then, um, just to give you an idea, July normal scheduling, August light scheduling.
Leanne ElliottOh, I'm so excited.
Al ElliottWe're gonna be really, really light in August. Then September we're coming back and we think we're going to move to workshops on a Thursday. So it's actually rather than an interview, a project. practical thing of how to do it, which will be on video as well. So that's all I've gotta say. Leanne, anything to add before these lovely people go and make a cup of tea or a glass of wine or whatever?
Leanne ElliottCome on, Bartsley Herts, governor!
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd England, of course, when we play on Wednesday.
Al ElliottYes, I know.
Leanne ElliottCome on.
Al ElliottAnd Croatia. So we've got—
Leanne ElliottAnd Croatia, yay!
Al ElliottWe've got 3 bikes. And if all that goes to shit, then we'll just go, oh no, because we lived in Spain, we follow Spain now. We're with Spain, Spanish supporters.
Leanne ElliottWe did say, we did say a couple of weeks ago actually that Spain was on our radar of people to To support as well.
Al ElliottSo, so broad.
Leanne ElliottAnd that you've been a big fan of Morocco for a long time.
Al ElliottOh yes, for at least 4 years. Not a big fan of going there. We didn't, we didn't enjoy our trip there. We went to the wrong place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, we'll see you next week.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye.