Episode 53 · 24 August 2023 · 1:00:58

53: Mandy Price: How Kanarys.com are Disrupting DEI

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Introducing Mandy Price and Kanarys
intro#introduction #guest #kanarys
New word alert: the 4-6pm dead zone
interview#productivity #work-hours #dead-zone
Postmen fired for buying tea
interview#workplace #tea #postmen
Hired or Fired: pocket dialing your boss
interview#hiring #firing #pocket-dialing
What does Kanarys actually do?
interview#kanarys #diversity #inclusion
Diversity without inclusion is a revolving door
interview#diversity #inclusion #retention
Affinity bias explained
interview#affinity-bias #bias #workplace
Starting with the legal basics
interview#legal #dei #edi
How do you know if you have a DEI problem?
interview#dei #assessment #workplace
DEI is ROI, not just nice-to-have
interview#dei #roi #data

Show notes

Why DEI Needs a Canary in the Coal Mine — with Mandy Price

Guest: Mandy Price — founder & CEO of Kanarys, former corporate lawyer who represented multi-billion dollar transactions after studying at Harvard Law.

Diversity, equity, and inclusion is too often treated as a spreadsheet exercise. Mandy Price built an entire company to change that.

Mandy joins Al and Leanne to explain how Kanarys — named after the canary in the coal mine — is using data and technology to record, measure, and actually improve DEI efforts in companies. She shares why retention matters more than recruitment, how affinity bias sneaks into every hiring decision, and why "diversity" without "inclusion" is just a revolving door.

Al and Leanne also dig into the uncomfortable realities of DEI work: the hidden costs of getting it wrong, the disparities in VC funding for women founders, and how to know — really know — whether your workplace has a DEI problem.

Top 3 Takeaways

Diversity is the easy part. Inclusion is the work. You can recruit diverse talent, but if the workplace isn't genuinely inclusive, you won't retain them. Kanarys exists because most companies stop at the spreadsheet.
Affinity bias is sneaky — and expensive. We like people like us. It's only bias when it's not a requirement of the job. Left unchecked, it costs the business dearly in recruitment, training, and productivity.
DEI is ROI. When you collect data properly and analyze it well, DEI stops being a "nice to have" and becomes a measurable driver of business performance.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team Can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Mandy PriceUm, but there was an African-American partner who, when she would travel to the different offices— because I worked at a national law firm, both of the firms I worked at were national— um, she would be mistaken for, uh, an assistant. And so, even though she was the partner on the deal, people would ask her to get coffee. They would ask her to make copies of documents.

Leanne ElliottHello, and welcome to the Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottYeah, and we— this is, uh, yet another episode in August, which we've started to do a little bit light. I think you described it as that, Leanne, because, um, the idea is that people are usually on vacation, on holiday. Um, you don't want any sort of like really deep, uh, episodes. We've tried to keep it a little bit lighter this time. Um, and, um, so we've got a founder story today, which we will talk about in a second. But let us know what you're getting up to. Just get on— if you're on LinkedIn, then just jump on, find us, Truth, Lies and Work. Uh, Leanne tends to deal with that side of things, but you'll be talking to her because I'm a bit of a boomer. I don't really know how to work it. Uh, but, uh, but yeah, just let us know what, what you're up to, what you think.

Leanne ElliottSo today we are talking to Mandy Price, who is the founder and CEO of Canaries. Al was actually the lucky person that got to speak with Mandy. So Al, fill us in. Who is Mandy and what does she do?

Al ElliottStudying at Harvard Law, Mandy represented multi-billion dollar transactions during her time in corporate law. She co-founded Canaries in 2018, and as CEO, she continues to provide the tools required for companies to push through their DEI changes and requirements. In 2021, they secured $3 million worth of funding to allow their expansion, and today over 600 companies are represented in the index. Also, big fans include the Chief Diversity Officer from Coke and also PepsiCo. They dogfood. In other words, they embrace diversity at the heart of their culture. Their entire executive team is BIPOC and it's over 50% representation by women. So before we jump into the interview with Mandy, it's our favourite time of the week. It's the news roundup.

Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.

Al ElliottWhat have you got, Leah?

Leanne ElliottWe have a new word.

Al ElliottNew word alert.

Leanne ElliottDead zone.

Al ElliottOh, I think I've seen that film.

Leanne ElliottIs it a film?

Al ElliottNo, I don't. I'm thinking of, uh, maybe I'm thinking of Backdraft or Danger Zone or—

Leanne ElliottBackdraft, that's a good film.

Al ElliottThat's a good film. Well, I say it's a good film, I've not really seen it.

Leanne ElliottJust add that to the list of '80s classics that you haven't watched. '80s, '90s?

Al ElliottSomething like that. I think if regular listeners will know, there is a big long list of films and movies that I need to see because I've not seen Karate Kid, I've not seen I've seen about 6 films anyway. Sorry, back zone draft. What was, what was the word again?

Leanne ElliottDead zone.

Al ElliottThat was it. What have we got?

Leanne ElliottAny ideas?

Al ElliottDead zone. Uh, is it the part— is it the hour after your lunch where you just don't want to do anything?

Leanne ElliottWhat's interesting is that, that, that's probably your dead zone. You're not very good that hour after lunch, are you? But for most people, that's actually when they have a little boost, is after lunch. Dead zone does refer to exactly what you're talking about, but at a different time the day. It is between 4 PM and 6 PM where bosses are saying they are not seeing the same levels of productivity as they did pre-pandemic, pre-remote working. So the dead zone has been coined, the period between 4 and 6 PM where apparently it looks like not much is getting done.

Al ElliottI obviously, I've not worked in, in corporate. I know you haven't really worked in corporate, you worked in offices. Um, I can totally understand that. I can see, I think at 4 o'clock for me, I just get a little bit like Bad enough. Yeah, yeah, it's time to, uh, it's time to pack up. I don't understand, because should leaders or should bosses be saying, okay, well, look, if you're not gonna get anything done between that time, just sack it off and go home, or should they be pushing to get people to do stuff during that time? What's the solution?

Leanne ElliottWell, bosses are complaining that they're having trouble getting hold of people or booking meetings at that time. Who in their right mind would book a meeting between 4 and 6 PM anyway? I have no idea.

Mandy PricePsychopaths.

Leanne ElliottI know, complete psychopaths. What's interesting is that this has come from research from Microsoft, and what they've actually found is that, yes, whilst this dead zone does exist, we are now seeing the existence of a triple peak day. So whereas previously we used to have 2 periods of time during the day where performance and productivity seemed to peak, and that was typically before and after lunch, we are now seeing a 3rd period, which is the period before bedtime, or the hours before bedtime. So what we are seeing is, yes, people are logging off between 4 and 6 PM, but they are logging back on at about 8, 9 o'clock and doing those couple of hours before they head to bed, probably because they are trying to prioritize other things in their life. I'm sure childcare plays a big factor in that. Even just, just that, that kind of sense of, I don't know, just that drain that you feel maybe at that point. You have a little break, you come back to it, you feel a bit more, a bit more energized. But yeah, bosses are kind of kicking off about this, and I'll be honest, I'm bored. I'm really bored of the the narrative that is happening around this, because it, it, I'm sure it existed to some extent before the pandemic. It's just you could see them and people get away with it, and they weren't as inclined to log back on in the evening, or they couldn't because they didn't have the technology to do it. It's almost like employers like dance monkey dance, and it's just boring now. I'm kind of getting over it, to be honest. Treat people like adults. If they behave like them, cool. If they don't, then that's a performance management conversation.

Al ElliottI don't see why we're making such a big deal out No, and I think we, a lot of our, um, a lot of our episodes seem to center around this, this idea of, like you say, treat them like adults because they are adults. And, and sort of what, what's the outcome you're looking for here? What's the work outcome? And if, if the work gets done, then who cares if it's done between 1 AM and 6 AM or done between 9 AM and 5 PM? That's such an archaic way of looking at things. And as we'll find out in a couple of episodes' time, um, we were— I've been preparing it today. And one of our future guests, so I won't say because it's gonna be a surprise. One of our future guests said that asking people to do 8 hours of continuous focused work is just ridiculous because we can't do that. We couldn't do that with our hobbies. I mean, can you spend, imagine doing, spending 8 full hours, I don't know, surfing or something, something which is a really high focus, um, activity. So why are we expecting people to do the same at work? Let's just stop. Stop trying to squeeze the maximum we possibly can out of people and just go, look, This is the outcome. Can you do it? Yes. Do I care when you do it? No. That's my thoughts anyway.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottWhat else you got, Leah?

Leanne ElliottWell, speaking of people potentially getting sacked for lack of work, um, there was an interesting article in the UK news this week that did— it did, I'll be honest, it tickled me, and then it concerned me, and then it kind of tickled me again when I read it. 6 workers from the Royal Mail, postal workers, posties, they deliver the letters, uh, 6 were sacked because Because they went to a pub on their tea and coffee break to drink tea and coffee. No evidence that alcohol was consumed. But yeah, went to a pub to drink tea and coffee on their break, therefore got sacked.

Al ElliottWait a minute. So they went— all they did was go and buy tea and coffee somewhere, and they got sacked for it?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottFired for those across the pond. I suppose it's quite apt that a postman gets sacked because that's what they have, big sacks of mail. Anyway, moving on. Hang on, have I understood this? These boys and girls decided they want a coffee, they went to, let's say, a Wetherspoons, which is a large chain of, uh, of pubs in the UK, they sat down, had a tea and coffee, and then they were sacked for going to the pub?

Leanne ElliottYeah, so digging a bit deeper, obviously the unions got involved with this as well, but digging deeper, the claim was that for optics this wasn't great because you had several post people sat in the same pub at the same time drinking tea and coffee. Um, and there is an issue. This was actually at the delivery office in Prenton on the Wirral, and apparently there are some other operational issues there, which does mean that people, local residents, aren't getting their mail. So this optics plus the, um, the issues with delivery did lead to these 6 people being sacked. Since then, 5 have been reinstated and 1 is still waiting to, uh, to hear their fate. But that kind of got me thinking, Al, what is the oddest reason for people getting sacked? Because that's a bit Weird, isn't it? Drinking a cup of tea. The pub, fair enough, I get it. But equally, like you say, you know, we have lots of pubs that are open during the day and they're quiet, so, you know, whatever. So anyway, yes, got me thinking, what's the weirdest, weirdest reason for being sacked? So I did some research, Al, and I've got some, and I thought I'd ask you, as a business owner yourself who has employed people, would you sack people for these offences? Would they remain hired or would they be fired?

Al ElliottOh, I like this. Hired or fired. We need a jingle for this.

Leanne ElliottCue the jingle. Are you ready for the first one?

Al ElliottYes.

Leanne ElliottSo this is— this is— these are apparently— they're from BuzzFeed mainly— apparently are legitimate actual reasons why some people did get fired from their roles. So number 1, Al: I once got fired from a construction crew For banging my hammer to a funky rhythm.

Al ElliottJust, just, I want to understand the rules. This is— these are supposedly happened, and you're asking me whether I would hire or fire, whether I would fire someone based on it? Absolutely not. No, I think that's what, that's what the world needs, a bit more funk in their life, I think.

Leanne ElliottCould you imagine? It'd be brilliant, wouldn't it? What kind of like groove would you want to be hearing?

Al ElliottOh, I don't know. I'm thinking something Motown. Depends whether you want to be fast. So if it, I mean, maybe you're thinking about sort of German. I'm trying to think of something. I don't know.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Maybe about music.

Leanne ElliottTechno.

Al ElliottTechno. Techno is exactly the word I'm thinking of. Yeah. Maybe if you want work to be done quickly, you certainly don't want it to be done to like the Carpenters where it's like, bum. But all of the Carpenters would be a good, good band to choose to bang your hammer to though, wouldn't it? Oh my God. Just came to me. I'm a genius. I'm here all week. You should try the fish.

Leanne ElliottSo you just— so just to be clear, you wouldn't fire somebody? They would remain hired if they decided to, to hit their hammer in a funky rhythm?

Al Elliott100%.

Leanne ElliottExcellent. Number 2, um, I got fired for stealing food from the work fridge.

Al ElliottAh, I see. Well, there's no context to that. Are we talking about stealing someone's lunch? Are we talking about taking stuff that was going to go in the bin anyway? I— that's a potential fire just because I don't know. You're taking something that isn't yours. If they'd said, I got fired for taking food from the work fridge that was gonna go in the bin anyway. Okay. No, that sounds okay to me. I got fired for stealing. I don't think you need to add anything else to that because yeah, I think fired.

Leanne ElliottI agree. I think it's— I think those things are kind of sacred anyway. If you know you've got something you're looking forward to for your lunch, but also you don't know the circumstances. You don't know if people can't afford to buy lunch, which is why they bring it with them, or, you know, it just It just shows that lack of, like you said, disrespect. And if you're gonna go behind your colleague's back and do that, what else are you gonna do?

Al ElliottGood point.

Leanne ElliottSo yeah, I'm with you. That's a, that's a firing offense for me.

Al ElliottWhat else you got, Leigh?

Leanne ElliottSo this might be my favourite one. I accidentally pocket dialed my boss while venting about him to my wife. I was told the next day I could resign. Or be fired.

Al ElliottI've got mixed feelings about this because to a certain extent, would it not be good for the boss to find out what people actually thought of him or her? Um, is this not accidentally really good feedback? At the same time, it's not nice to vent about— I mean, to be fair, we have all done it, but it's not nice to vent about, about people behind their back. I do this all the time when— if I— if not, I don't vent all the time, but if I ever do want to just like Get off the phone from someone, just go, oh, Leanne, you're never gonna guess what this person said. I always pick my phone up and I always like put it on airplane, or if it's on WhatsApp, I close the app just in case, because I'm paranoid that's gonna happen. Did you hear about the guy, uh, Recruitment Advisor? Um, it was on Radio 1. Recruitment Advisor apparently rang this guy who wanted to be a teacher, um, with, with like a trainee next to him and said, yes, we might have a couple of jobs for you, uh, would you like to give us, give us a ring back please, Ralph, or whatever his name was? Thanks very much. Put the phone down, but he left this message, by the way, on his answerphone. Put the phone down but didn't put it back in the cradle and then turned to his trainee and went, oh, he seems like a bit of a pedo to me. Like he wants to work with kids. Hmm. Not sure about that. And then you could hear like silence as the other person came back and he went, oh shit. And then he put the phone down properly.

Leanne ElliottOh God, I can feel it. You can feel it, can't you?

Al ElliottYou can. And the worst thing is that you'll be thinking, I'm sure an hour later you're thinking, Why didn't I just lift the phone back up, press hash to get the menu, and then delete that message? As soon as I put the phone down, the message was gone. It's like sending an email and not getting it back. Anyway, anyway, so that's— so for me, that's a tricky one. What do you think?

Leanne ElliottI agree. I think it depends on, on, on the context of it. I think with your recruitment example, I think that might, might be a, a sacking offense there for a number of reasons. But mainly, if you honestly do believe this person might be a pedophile, why are you trying to offer them a job with kids?

Mandy PriceYeah.

Leanne ElliottYou know, that's just in terms of due diligence, doing your job. You don't seem to be doing it very well. I think in terms of the, the venting to your wife thing, I think that's fair game. It's not happening in a work situation, it's not happening with a work colleague, it's happening in your own time. You've accidentally phoned somebody, so your intention was not for someone to hear that very private home-based conversation. I don't think it is a sacking offence. And more so, I agree with you, I think that is a really good opportunity for a leader to go, Okay, I wasn't meant to hear this. I did. We should probably have a conversation about this. And I would also say the really cool leaders out there might go, do you know what I'm going to do? I'm not going to bring this up with that individual and make that potentially awkward targeting type scenario. I'm going to take this as my sign to run a 360 feedback survey and get my peers, my employees, my boss, my customers to rate me on these behaviours. If I'm seeing similar type of feedback, albeit I'm sure much more constructively presented, then maybe my, my employee having it, having a bit of a vent, had a point. And on the opposite side, if I didn't see anything that, that would suggest that what that employee was saying was true, maybe it is time for that one-to-one conversation and checking and see how they're doing.

Al ElliottYeah, true. And also, let's be honest, if they are venting to their partner at home, Perhaps it's just taking some of the stress out of everything so that when they come back to work, they're like, okay, back to work. We've all done it. We've all vented just, just so that we could get it off our chest and then we go back on, get back on with our lives.

Leanne ElliottSo.

Al ElliottAbsolutely. That's an interesting one. It's an interesting one. I liked this game. I wanna have that.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I like that one.

Al ElliottI wanna have like cards next time, like hired or fired or whatever. So you need to put a bit more effort into your games there, Ellie.

Leanne ElliottOkay. I will try for next time.

Al ElliottAnything else?

Leanne ElliottNo, that's your lot.

Al ElliottBrilliant. Okay, so let's get on with the episode. So we have some— such an interesting episode here. As I alluded to in the intro, this lady's very, very busy because she's building something pretty incredible. Now, Canaries is this DEI platform. I want to just take a second to talk about the different types of platform. There's 2 main types of sort of like— I'll call them HR apps because I know that's, that's a bit broad, but there's lots and lots and lots of them out there. If you type in well-being app or workplace app or something. There's lots of pieces of software out there. They tend to fall into 2 sort of areas or 2 types. The first one is an algorithmic-based app, and that's something where usually it's a survey, the, the, all the results come in, and an algorithm will then calculate the report and spit it out. That's good business for these apps, but because obviously they don't have to Have someone to do all this. But at the same time, you and I, Leo, we're of the feeling that it's not necessarily the full solution there. And the second one is expert-based analysis, and that's where you'll actually have a human who will sit down and look at the results. Now, you might also have an algorithm to work out all the sort of like the, um, you know, the numbers and stuff, but that's where you'll have a human to sit down and interpret it and, and create some actions based on it. And that's what our own RX-7 is based on, and also what Canaries is based on, which we'll talk about in a So, I mean, Leah, do you think there is a place for the sort of algorithm, the machine, AI-only sort of apps?

Leanne ElliottIs there? Yeah, there's a place for them, sure. But I think it's recognizing their constraints and their limitations, as you, as you said. I think the key thing is if you collect any kind of type of data from your employees, you have to make a commitment to actioning that data because you will do more damage. Even just by asking for feedback, you're going to see an uptick in things like morale and employee voice and psychological safety, those things then aren't, aren't followed through and actioned, or at least responded to, those levels are probably going to dip lower than they were when you started. So yeah, I guess it's a case of it doesn't really matter where your data comes from as long as it is reliable and valid. It's more about acting on said data. And my understanding is if you have maybe more expert-backed or, um, complemented system, that's much more likely to happen.

Al ElliottBrilliant, brilliant. Well, Mandy obviously agrees. Let's go and meet Mandy.

Mandy PriceMy name is Mandy Price. I am the CEO of Canaries, and we help organizations create more inclusive and equitable cultures. We do that by the use of our data and analytics platform. I had been working within a law firm for, for many years and helping them with their diversity, equity, inclusion strategy, and felt that we were really limited when it came to data. We were— had demographic data, but we didn't have the data to really help us have a holistic diversity, equity, inclusion strategy. And so what we do at Canaries is help organizations measure not only diversity, which is the easiest part to measure, but help them measure inclusion, equity, and belonging.

Leanne ElliottI wanted to understand what made Canaries so special. So we asked Mandy, what does it do exactly?

Mandy PriceSo, our name Canaries comes from canary in the coal mine. I had a professor actually in law school that had a book, and that's where I got the name around that. But it's also around the concept of canaries were taken into coal mines. It's dealing with workplaces and ensuring workplaces were healthy. The gas was odorless, colorless, tasteless, and the canary was there to be that first alert. And we're doing the same thing for workplaces where they may not know, right? They're dealing with a lot of things that are invisible to see, and we're that first alert for them to ensure that they're maintaining that healthy workplace. So what Canaries is, is it's a software program where we do a number of assessments, but we combine that with managed services so that you don't just have the analytics; we, you work in tandem with our IO psychologists, with our data scientists and with our DIB professionals and experts. And so they have expertise on change management in workplaces, how workplaces work. And so those individuals have trained for many, many decades, the ones that are on our team, around this, this work. And so, they understand how to bring about the kind of transformation that's sometimes needed within the workplace.

Al ElliottNow, this is the second episode we've done on DEI. The first was back in episode 45. And we learned loads of things on that. What I wanted to ask Mandy, though, straight from the horse's mouth, all these terms, do they mean the same thing?

Mandy PriceNo, it's a great question. They all mean very different things. And so, we've seen that diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging has changed over time. It really started out with affirmative action programs, and then moved into the kind of current format of what we see now, which is moving away from that compliance-based look to seeing how do we cultivate an environment where all of our employees can belong and thrive within the workplace. So when we think around diversity, we're looking at demographics, we're looking at elements of your identity. So I know people traditionally think of gender and race, but it goes much Beyond that, we look at things around religion, sexual orientation, disability, neurodiversity. It's all these elements of, of, of you, what makes you you, right? And how do we ensure that our workplace is representative of society? And when we think around inclusion, we think around all those identity components and say, no matter what my identity is, I feel included within my workplace. As we start to think of equity, It goes on, no matter what my identity is, I have the same opportunities within the workplace. I'm able to thrive within that workplace. I'm not limited or kind of subjugated to certain departments, or my pay is not equitable. It really is ensuring that I have the same opportunities no matter what my identity is and what background is. And we're seeing the evolution now really go to belonging, which is how do we ensure that all employees feel like they belong within that workplace and feel like they can be their true selves and authentic selves within that workplace as well.

Leanne ElliottWhat's interesting is there are a lot of companies that think diversity and inclusion is about a spreadsheet, about tracking the diversity and demographics you have within your organization. But that's not really measuring anything, as Mandy explains.

Mandy PriceBecause what we'll see is some workplaces that really focus on diversity, Again, because that is the easiest to measure. And so they will want to ensure that there's different faces, different demographics within their workplace. But diversity alone isn't enough. If we have diversity within the workplace without the inclusion, equity, and belonging, we have a workplace— that's where you hear kind of the phrases of tokenism, or you'll hear sometimes the diversity revolving door, where we may have talent that comes in. We may be able to recruit them, but we won't be able to retain them because we haven't properly set forth the foundation in the workplace to cultivate an environment that is inclusive and where talent, all talent can thrive. So when I think of a good workplace, and there's a lot of research around this, you know, one of the really foundational reasons why I started Canaries was that I felt that Organizations were very well-intentioned, but that they didn't really understand because they weren't IO psychologists or they weren't having those kinds of backgrounds of understanding the decades and decades of research that went into this work, that DEI was hiring and that was focused only on hiring and that DEI was programmatic. And so if your DEI programs are simply based off celebrating the different months. That's a start, but that's not going to really drive transformation within your organization because we have to really set up the policies, the practices, the structures to cultivate an environment that is both diverse, equitable, inclusive, and has that sense that creates that sense of belonging amongst employees.

Leanne ElliottIt might sound obvious, and if you did listen to our previous episode on EDI, you will already know this, that diversity starts with recruitment and expanding the diversity and demographics of your talent pool. I've helped companies with this type of thing for years because it can be so easy for bias to creep into a recruitment process, particularly if it's not evidence-led. If you haven't conducted a job analysis, if you haven't conducted any type of evaluation around the person that you need, or the traits, competencies, experience that you need. Even in terms of where you advertise the role, whether you make the point that candidates can apply if they don't perhaps meet every single aspect of the criteria. All of these things can prevent certain people, certain demographics, from applying for roles, and that in itself reduces the diversity of not only our candidate pool, but also then potentially creates bias in our recruitment processes. Certain psychometrics are biased against certain demographics of people, and they're well-tested, well-researched tools, but bias will still exist. So for example, if we are conducting a psychometric that is dependent within the context of Western culture and we are administering, administrating that to somebody who grew up in, in a different culture, in Eastern Asian culture, they're going to be disadvantaged from not knowing that these context references that can create bias— there's so many different ways to accidentally create bias in your recruitment processes. And Mandy recognizes this too.

Mandy PriceAnd so when we think around an organization that maybe has the way they've done talent acquisition and their processes in place for many, many years, it's much harder to to change that the way people may be used to doing business, where if you start to think around— and I'll just talk around talent acquisition briefly, because I think that's just the easiest way for people to understand, because everyone has usually gone through a hiring process as we start to think around DEI, that we know, for example, a DEI best practice is to have standardized scorecards, to have standardized questions, to ensure you have a diverse interview group so that you can ensure you have a range of perspectives as well, and you reduce the opportunity for affinity bias.

Al ElliottNow, hold on a minute. Mandy just used a term there I'd never heard before, affinity bias. What does that mean, Leigh?

Leanne ElliottIn the simplest way of putting it, affinity bias means we like people like us. We like people, we tend to like people more if we have shared experiences with them in terms of where we grew up, what school we went to, our hobbies, our interests. And that is what affinity bias is. We're more likely to perhaps make more favourable decisions or be more lenient towards people who we feel this affinity with. In the workplace and in a recruitment context, that could mean things like, um, you know, I went to Harvard, therefore Or, if I see somebody else who went to Harvard, I'm going to favour them in terms of the selection process. It might be somebody who has experience in welfare to work, like I do. It might be somebody who started a hospitality business in their late 20s, Al, that you would have an affinity with. It's all of these things that, of course, as humans, it's natural for us to feel these closer connections to people who are more similar to us. In a recruitment context, this can very obviously lead to bias and discrimination.

Al ElliottWould affinity bias also be, for example, if I'm recruiting for 2, uh, 2 people to work in admin, um, and then of the 2 people, one person's got a background in sales, who's quite salesy, and I quite like sales, and the other person hasn't, then would affinity— would it be affinity bias if I went for the person who liked sales, for example? Or is that just me thinking A bit ahead of myself thinking, oh, they could start in admin and move into sales.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I guess it is, it is affinity bias. The thing about affinity bias is it's only bias if it's not a required trait or experience. It's not necessarily— if you've got, if you've got somebody in admin and you've identified it as part of your job analysis that having somebody with a sales edge is going to be beneficial, I've recruited an admin person like that and I absolutely— she's the best interview that I've ever sat in because she slid over some sales receipts from when she was in retail and showed how she just smashed it month on month. And for me, that was like brilliant because we've identified in the job analysis that actually somebody with a sales type of background is more likely to be able to build rapport with people easily. And we were very customer— we were in a very customer-heavy environment. Was she customer-facing? No. But having that trait, because she was going to be put in situations where she would need to engage with customers, would be important. If you've identified that some kind of sales experience, affinity with sales is important for the role, then that is not affinity bias. And that is where an evidence-led recruitment process can save you from any claims of bias or discrimination. What would be an affinity bias, if you had 2 candidates, you'd identified as part of the administration role that sales, some sales acumen would be useful. And you had one person who'd done sales knocking door to door, and one person done sales at a call centre. And you preferred the person doing door to door because that was sales experience that you have. That would be affinity bias.

Al ElliottGotcha. Great example, by the way. I totally get it.

Leanne ElliottMandy also has a really good example.

Mandy PriceSo I went to University of Texas at Austin. I have a candidate, they went to University of Texas at Austin. I'm going to spend the interview talking about UT football because I love UT football. We're going to talk around our, our days around the 40 Acres, and then I'm going to end the interview and talk around how great this candidate was, and maybe we didn't even delve into their expertise or their work history. And so we have to create processes within not just talent acquisition, but every area of the employee lifecycle to try to mitigate against the normal human tendency to have these biases produce. One of the things that— because I know you asked earlier, what are some of those other best practices? And like I said, there's so many because there's been so much research on this is As we start to pull together job descriptions, right, we know there's software companies that all they do is look at job descriptions for bias. We hear a lot of organizations and companies will say, well, we don't have diverse talent applying for our positions, but they're using the same job descriptions that they've always used that has always produced the kind of talent pipeline that they have, where there's so much research that shows even the way you pull it together, a job description will affect who applies for that role. So if your job description is talking about, it's not just the language you use, right? It's the language, but it's also other things around how you characterize your organization around happy hours or, you know, kind of the activities that the organization engages in. If I'm a working mom, I may feel like I don't fit in there. If I'm an individual of a certain religious background that does not drink, I may not apply for that position. So it really is from that foundational level, thinking around, how do we need to structure this to ensure our policies, practices are promoting a workplace that is diverse and inclusive?

Al ElliottI think, if a lot of people listening to this, they've not had much experience with EDI, DEI, they might be thinking, oh my God, this is so complicated. And I might get it all wrong and that I'm really frightened about doing this. What would you say to them, Leigh?

Leanne ElliottI would say start with the basics, right? There is, there is a legal aspect to recruitment and bias and discrimination that we have to make sure we are complying with. We can't ignore that. I think it's like, you know, finance. You might, you know, you need to submit your accounts every year as a business. Are you going to delve into, you know, engaging some some tax wizard who's going to set you up 12 different companies in 12 different territories to maybe, but probably not in your first 3 years of business. You know, that sounds like an Amazon-type problem or solution. So the fact is, start with the, the basics, the, the legalities, the, the legal aspects in recruitment that you need to make sure you are covering. And again, this is where job analysis and an evidence-led recruitment process is going to help you with that. It's going to make sure that you have done what you need to do ethically, morally, legally to reduce bias and discrimination in your recruitment process. I think there's 2 different things. There's one to try and reduce and prevent bias at one end of the scale, and the other is completely embracing and being proactive in diversifying your candidate pool. Will anything change in terms of your diversity unless you're intentional about it?

Mandy PriceNo.

Leanne ElliottBut equally Start with the basics. There is a good chance if you don't have an evidence-led recruitment process, if you haven't used a robust job analysis process to structure your roles and the person criteria you need, there is a good chance that without those things, bias and discrimination will exist within your recruitment processes. Start there. Once that's all sorted, then we can look at how we can actually broaden our candidate pools and start to embrace diversity and inclusion. Mandy agrees and explains that this really is a learning process.

Mandy PriceRight, there's certain things that happen during the talent acquisition process that we can put in place to promote best practices and to reduce bias. There's things we can do during performance management. There's things that we do during learning and development. So there's all these different elements as we look at the entire employee lifecycle that we can put in place. And I think it's important because I know a lot of times organizations may feel overwhelmed by DEIB. A lot of times people feel afraid to get it wrong. And, you know, I always encourage organizations to understand that this is something that people are constantly evolving. Kind of as we started this conversation, it started out as diversity, and now it's diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. And so this is something that you will Be continually learning. I think one of the things is to realize that it is that journey, that you will continue to mature on your DIB journey, and that, you know, the things— you can't be afraid of that learning.

Leanne ElliottNobody expects you to get it right straight away. And even Canary's got it wrong at one point.

Mandy PriceBecause we have advisors on our board as well that represent a variety of different expertise levels. So individuals that have expertise in LGBT issues, individuals that have expertise in disability. And within some of our assessments early on, we were using terminology around differently abled. And one of our advisors is on the board of the American Association with People with Disabilities. And he told us, don't use that phrase. That's actually offensive to disabled individuals. And we took that as a learning, right? We weren't afraid in saying, oh no, we're afraid that we may offend disabled people. So we're not going to do any work around that. And I think that's a lot of what we're seeing now is that people are so afraid that they're going to get things wrong that they kind of just avoid it altogether. And I think it's important to lean into the work, to realize that it's going to be a continuous learning journey, and to realize that, that your employees aren't seeking perfection. What they're seeking is your commitment to this work and your commitment to, um, helping to create a workplace that is inclusive for all individuals. Um, and you're realizing that you're not going to be perfect, but that you're committed to, uh, continuing to improve.

Leanne ElliottObviously, I am a huge advocate for diversity and inclusion and equity in the workplace. I I'm not saying that you do not need to worry about these things or shouldn't want these things in your business. Research continues to show us it's not just building human-centered workplaces or responsible businesses, it's also really good commercially. We know that diverse teams typically are higher performing, they have lower turnover rates, they have higher engagement, high levels of innovation, creativity, problem solving, speed to market, revenue profitability. The list goes on. Diversity and inclusion is very, very good for business.

Al ElliottI think this, this is all lovely and good. But what I really wanted to find out from Mandy was what I mean with, with the economy, with everything that's tightening at the moment, business is becoming tough. Businesses are going out of business. Nobody's quite got the same disposable income as they had maybe 5 years ago in the height of everything. So I wanted to find out from Mandy. Is this something that businesses should be investing in, and how much do they need to set aside?

Mandy PriceAs a startup, there's nothing more important than your team and ensuring that you are attracting the best team to your startup. And so, I think that people have a skewed perception of the cost. When I think of even of our own platform, You know, of how much it costs, that I know that it's, it's a cost that is very much manageable for most organizations. And so I think it's a matter of kind of not trying to boil the ocean either, in thinking of how do we embed DEI in a way that makes sense. And again, I would say it should be from that foundational level, as opposed to— thinking of, I need to hire— and I don't want to talk down on executive recruiters because we've hired them as well— around, I need to hire some executive recruiters to source diverse talent for me, when really you probably need to start thinking around the policies, practices, procedures that you need to be putting in place that are going to stay with your organization over time, that you're creating that right infrastructure.

Al ElliottSo warning, this is cynical Al coming. It's cynical Al, who's a marketer. I was thinking, do you think that some businesses just do this just to say they've done it? Is what Mandy said.

Mandy PriceI think it's both. I think that there's some organizations that do it for marketing. And I think that there's some organizations that really understand, because they've read the research over decades, the correlation of DEI to all kinds of business outcomes and to ensuring that their employees have the support and resources that they need. When we look at DEI, it's not something where the research is only a couple of years old. This research has been going on since the '70s around DEI's impact to businesses and how it increases innovation, how it increases employee engagement, how it increases customer service, any kind of surveys they do with organizations that are more, have ingrained DEI within their business strategies, have better customer service satisfaction and better scores from consumers. We also see it lowers absenteeism, and those organizations have higher retention rates. We also see the correlations to financial performance.

Leanne ElliottSo you may well be thinking, why is DEI so much in the limelight right now? It must be down to those darn Gen Zers, and you wouldn't be wrong. The reason Gen Z are so interested in this is because they are the first minority-majority generation, which is a really stupid phrase because they're just the majority. But what it means is that where we, we had previous minority groups that might have been around race, ethnicity, sexuality, gender identification— those minorities are now a majority in the Gen Z generation. So of course, as a diverse generation, they're going to care about diversity, and the research shows that too. 62% of Gen Z see increased diversity as good for society. 80% think it's important for businesses and brands to be inclusive, and 53% want to see more diversity in senior leadership. And as I said, it's not just around race and ethnicity that Gen Z want to see this diversity. They want to see diversity in gender identification, in sexual orientation, in neurodiversity. It really is a much broader topic of conversation than it ever has been before. All the data shows is that businesses that fail to embrace the intersection of these minorities or diversities— and this can be anything from race and ethnicity to neurodiversity and disability will struggle in the fight to retain talent.

Al ElliottSo I wanted to find out, how would we know as business leaders, business owners, how do we know there is a DEI problem in our company? Who better to ask than Mandy? So I asked her.

Mandy PriceFor example, when I was working within a workplace, uh, previously, at this point I wasn't a partner at the law firm, but there was an African-American partner who, when she would travel to the different offices, because I worked at a national law firm, both of the firms I worked at were national, she would be mistaken for an assistant. And so, even though she was the partner on the deal, people would ask her to get coffee. They would ask her to make copies of documents. And so, that's an example of a microaggression where someone is assuming that she's not the partner in charge. On the matter, even though she was in the conference room. But they assumed she was in the conference room for another reason. And so when we have workplaces, right, even though that is a diverse workplace and someone is met with those microaggressions every day, it will affect your ability to retain that talent because then they don't feel included. They don't feel like they are having the same type of credibility as their peers, and usually people start to look for employment elsewhere.

Al ElliottNow, Mandy's experience is clearly skewed towards law, but she's been a campaigner for this for a long, long time, even going back to university days.

Mandy PriceWe were really excited. We were one of the first universities outside of Atlanta to have an MLK statute, and the statute was egged all the time. And so the president of the university put in place a racial respect and fairness task And I was one of the individuals appointed. And so that's really where I started to be first involved with diversity, equity, inclusion work around really thinking about it from a systemic standpoint, an institutional standpoint of how do we ensure that the organization from that foundational level is set up to promote diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. I then went on to Harvard Law School and did a lot of research on these issues at the Harvard Civil Rights Project. And then when I was practicing law, I practiced law for 12 years, I was deeply involved within my law firm's DEI strategy. So I was on the Diversity Committee, the Women's Task Force, and led up the Black ERG. And that's where I saw where organizations, again, very well-intentioned, wanting to do the right thing, but struggling to really have the data that they need to drive their strategy. So as I went from that law firm and started to work at another law firm and saw the same challenges there, and that's where I really started to explore this idea of creating the company. I, of course, being a lawyer and a little risk-averse, did a lot of research. So started to reach out to individuals that I know that have been kind of in the corporate sphere doing this work, and were Chief Diversity Officers for large organizations. So reached out to the Chief Diversity Officer; they had recently retired of PepsiCo, same thing of Coca-Cola. And talked to them around the idea, started to do whiteboard, whiteboard design sessions with them, and saw that there was really a market for this. That there wasn't anything that existed currently around, um, really delving into the data and the analytics in the way that we were.

Leanne ElliottThis isn't just nice to have. This is ROI. When you collect data properly and you analyze it in a way that is robust and there is science sat behind the model that you have used to create your survey to collect that data, it is what we call a predictive model of X, whether that be culture and employee engagement like our RX7, or whether it be, um, diversity and inclusion as it was, as it is with Canaries. So what we mean by that is that that data is collected and is, is translated into insights, and those insights can be used to predict future performance both in terms of individuals and of organizations. So we know if we're seeing certain data points, we can predict whether people are going to leave in the next 6 months' time, whether people are going to go off sick, whether they're going to go— when they're going to burn out, whether they are more likely to quiet quit. There are so many different things that we can predict when we have reliable and valid data that comes from using these types of tools. And I really think this is the evolution we need to see in terms of technology applied to people and culture. Technology is, is not really the solution. It's, it's part of the solution, or it's an enabler of the solution. You know, it's like any good CRM system, isn't it? It's not a case of I have a CRM, it's a case of I have a high-functioning, reliable, effective CRM. I know I'm losing myself here. I'll explain. CRMs.

Al ElliottWell, it stands for— no, uh, that's a really good analogy. It is a really good analogy. And I think there's Like, we're worried at the moment about AI taking over the world, and I don't think we should be because the whole point is it's supposed to augment our lives, not like replace us. And like with anything, when you used to do— if you do— if you ever did like accounts and you wrote in ledgers, then Excel was probably both frightening but also amazing because then you could do it all so much simpler with fewer, much fewer mistakes. So technology is there to help us, and we're not saying don't go out and use any kind of workplace culture app. We're saying just try and balance the idea of technology helping you, augmenting this process, um, with having an expert who's looking over it like they've got at Canaries with all of their data scientists and business psychologists looking over it, ensuring that what's being spat out as the, as the data from the app is actually being, is actually correct and right and is driving the right insight, insights and actions. In short, by using a technology platform that has got experts who are overseeing that, you're gonna take the guesswork out of everything.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.

Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting Interesting episodes. It'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I am.

Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.

Mandy PriceSo some of the things that we've seen with clients is Obviously, lower time-to-hire ratios. We've seen organizations increase the diverse representation within their workplace. But we've also seen a lot of things where they've changed their structures and put those kind of foundational things we've talked about earlier around those best practices. And then our program is really meant to be targeted so that we're not guessing. We're not saying we're going to do an unconscious bias training when that's not what our organization needs. It's understanding where are the gaps and deficiencies so that we can ensure whatever we're putting in place is going to meet the need of our employees and be successful. So we've had learning and development that's really tailored to that organization where they understand this particular hiring manager needs to be trained. As we look at this department or division, these are the things we need to put in place. As we look at mental health within our workplace, We've seen that we were able to spot that for a lot of our end customers before all the things we've started to see around burnout more recently. So they were then able to train their hiring managers to look for signs of burnout, to be able to provide additional mental health support and resources to their organization. Again, around how do we ensure that the programs and initiatives are what our team needs, as opposed to kind of just guessing and doing initiatives. And that's where I think it becomes really costly. And people say, well, I don't see how we've benefited, or we haven't seen the effects of DEI. It's because they, they didn't know what DEI programs and initiatives they needed. They were just kind of guessing around what to implement within their organization.

Al ElliottThis comes back to what Leanne says all the time. That if you collect the right data, if you analyze it properly, and if you come out with some logical actions, then you will see an ROI on what you do. On anything you invest in, you will definitely see an ROI 100% of the time. So, for example, if your recruitment process is not robust, is not good, then you run the risk of hiring someone who's not right. How much does a bad hire cost, Lee?

Leanne ElliottIt's about 3 times salary in terms of kind of recruitment, training, productivity costs. So yeah, if you've got a £50,000 a year person's salary, that's going to cost you about £150 grand.

Al ElliottJust because you're not doing the recruitment right. You're just, you're perhaps using those, those affirmation bias. What was it? No, affiliate. What was the word? Affinity bias before, because you've gone, oh, I like, I like them. They also support Man U, for example. Maybe Great example with, with Leanne being a Liverpool fan. Same with disengagement. So if you have a team who are disengaged, who are just coasting, how much is that costing you, Leigh?

Leanne ElliottWell, it's estimated about, about a day a week per employee. So what, that's gonna monetary-wise 20% of annual salary. So again, £50,000 employee, it's about £10,000 a year.

Al ElliottNot an inconsiderate amount of money. And then the last part of this, we talk about On our personal framework, we talk about recruitment, engagement, and management. If you have a bad manager, what does that cost, Lee?

Leanne ElliottWell, apart from being completely soul-destroying for your employees, we know that a bad manager costs the business about £25 per day. That's per manager. So even if you're a small business and you've got 2 managers, you're probably looking at about £12,000-£13,000 a year.

Al ElliottAll of this is a lot of money, and the bottom line is, if you don't invest in your people, then it's going to cost you financially. Talking of growth, Canaries have seen some pretty big growth numbers recently.

Leanne ElliottYeah, Canaries has just raised funding. And as we know from our previous episodes, when it comes to women founders raising capital, being invested in by VCs, it is rare, it is a minority. What Mandy explains, when it comes to being a Black woman, That percentage is even smaller.

Mandy PriceSo, um, as we think around the disparities that we see, uh, within the VC ecosystem, they're, they're, they're quite large, right? When we look at women entrepreneurs and the amount of funding that they're receiving compared to, um, not only their percentage within society, but the amount of women entrepreneurs there are. But then also when we look at, uh, Black women, the disparities are quite, quite vast. So when we look at the most recent numbers, Black women received 0.06% of venture capital funding. That's not 0.6, 0.06. So it is very limited as far as the capital being deployed to those groups because of some of the same structural barriers that we're talking about today. Right. We're talking around How do we need to think around ways where our structures could be producing these unintended outcomes? It's the same. When we look at venture capital, you usually have to have warm introductions. When we look at most venture capitalists, they come from usually 2 schools. There's a couple others, but primarily Harvard and Stanford. And so when it's working off of this warm introduction system, right, it's not a you submit your idea in your pitch deck here and they analyze it. It's much more, you have to be connected within those networks already and be able to get a warm introduction to those individuals. And so that is producing a lot of disparities that we see. And also the research around how even pitch meetings are conducted. We see that there's been a lot of research that women are asked more questions around risk and around how they're going to handle potential challenges. And the research has showed that men are asked more questions around opportunity. And so, if you come out of a pitch where you're kind of asked around how you're going to handle everything that could potentially go wrong with your business versus a meeting where you were able to talk about the market opportunities and the ways you're going to capture the market, the meeting is going to feel very different. Right. And so those are the types of disparities that exist. And the venture capital community is aware of it. Right. Just kind of the reckoning we saw in 2020 with George Floyd caused a lot of organizations and industries to really start to be more introspective and think around how do we tackle these issues. And so we're seeing more organizations start to have that kind of process that I talked around where submit your pitch deck here. But we still see a lot using the old kind of warm introduction process. We've seen more organizations as well, as we start to think around the lack of diversity that exists around VC fund managers, where we start to see things called diversity riders, where some of the funds have pledged to start to work with diverse fund managers to ensure they're brought into those deals. Because a lot of times people are forming, usually with any kind of venture deal, there's not just one investor, there's usually a syndicate. So how do we start to ensure that we're bringing in those diverse fund managers into these syndicates and, you know, ensuring that those processes are more equitable as well?

Al ElliottIf you head back to episode 27 and 28, you'll hear our 2-parter on VC funding. And one of the key things that come out of that is that VCs are now taking into account your workplace culture as like a kind of a, a value on the actual deal sheet rather than just looking at your bottom line. So if you're looking to grow, raise funds, you're looking to do— to at some point sell your business, you need to be thinking about this stuff now, because if you don't, it will cost you in the long run.

Leanne ElliottYeah, we learned that from our VC experts in those episodes. We've also learned it from talking to various non-exec directors and business owners who have recently been through due diligence— due diligence— due—

Al ElliottEasy for you to say.

Leanne ElliottIt's not easy for me to say. We've recently been through due diligence processes and have been asked for these people and culture metrics. Things like what's your average time to hire, what's your average tenure, what's your, your current employee engagement rate, retention rate, attrition rate. And those, you know, that those that are able to demonstrate levels of well-being within their organization are also going to have a much, much better chance of selling their business for a higher price because they are showing that their people are engaged and that people have been prioritized. The thing to remember as well, you know, if you're going to try and exit your business, find an investor, they're not just going to want to see one year's worth of accounts, they're going to want to see several. So it's the same for employee insights. It's not an activity to do 12 months before you decide you want to sell your business. It's an activity to do now with the view that you might well sell your business in the next 2, 5, 20 years.

Al ElliottVery smart advice. So if you're interested in Canary as a platform, we asked Mandy where the best place was for people to go.

Mandy PriceSure, the best place for them to go is, um, www.kanaries.com, or you can go find us on any social media, which is Kanaries Inc. And Kanaries is K-A-N-A-R-Y-S.

Al ElliottIf you're interested in the RX7 Method, which is the method that Leanne has created, the 7 Foundations of an Amazing Workplace Culture, it is in invite-only mode at the moment. So check the link, check the show notes for a link, or just send us a LinkedIn message Or an email.

Leanne ElliottThank you so much to Mandy for sharing your incredible story, your insights, your very fierce entrepreneurial drive, and what you are trying to achieve in this world. It is really awesome. If you want even more inspiration from women in leadership, I would encourage you to check out our very first Founder episode with Stella Smith from Perks, and also our more recent episode with the incredible women from MKG. I will leave a link to both of those in the show notes.

Al ElliottRight, so I think that's it, Lee. So, um, as ever, value-packed, I hope. I hope anyway.

Leanne ElliottI hope so. I think, I think with a guest like Mandy, it's hard not to, to be, be value-packed, I think.

Al ElliottSo next week is the final episode of our kind of slightly lighter, smoother August editions before we get right back into the saddle in September. And we got, oh, we got some really, really great people booked on for the rest of the year. So make sure if you're not subscribed and you like this stuff, you know what to do.

Leanne ElliottAnd while you're there, leave us a review. That'd be nice.

Al ElliottAnd if you're watching this on YouTube, then as, as I, I'm pretty sure, um, about 6 other people are at this point, then leave us a comment. Say hello. We'd love to hear from you. See you next week.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Bye.