Episode 54 · 31 August 2023 · 1:08:40

Why a Human-Centric Approach is the Key to Business Growth

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What does human-centric mean?
panel interview#human-centric #workplace-culture
Word of the week: career cushioning
panel interview#career-cushioning #news-roundup
Wilkinson's collapse and the business case for stability
panel interview#retail-collapse #business-stability #career-cushioning
Listener comments on the psychology of happiness
panel interview#psychology #happiness #listener-comments
Introducing Catherine, Stacy and Mel
intro#human-centric-workplaces #guest-introductions
Pillar 1 — Intentional collaboration
panel interview#collaboration #intentional-collaboration #workplace-pillars
Pillar 2 — Flexible work experiences
panel interview#flexible-work #work-experiences #people-first
Pillar 3 — Empathy-based management
panel interview#empathy #management #flexible-work
The WTFG reflective exercise
panel interview#reflective-exercise #self-reflection
Wrap-up and where to find our guests
outro#wrap-up #linkedin #guests

Show notes

Why a Human-Centric Approach is the Key to Business Growth

Episode 54 — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) explore the human-centric revolution reshaping workplaces — and why putting people first isn't just nice, it's the smartest business decision you can make.

The corporate landscape is shifting. "Human-centric" has become the phrase on everyone's lips — but what does it actually mean, and is there a real business case behind the buzzword?

Al and Leanne unpack the three pillars of a human-centric workplace — intentional collaboration, flexible work experiences, and empathy-based management — with insight from three brilliant guests: leadership coach Catherine de la Poer, mental wealth expert Stacy Thomson, and Birdie's Senior People Manager Mel Murphy.

Along the way, they explore the psychology of kindness (spoiler: it's not "woke" — it's good for business), why your opinion isn't always helpful, and the difference between empathy and unlimited positive regard. Plus, Leanne shares a brilliant reflective exercise with a very memorable acronym.

🔥 What We Covered

The business case for human-centric workplaces Leanne poses a brilliant thought experiment: two businesses, £1 million each to invest in. One spends it on shiny new offices and flashy perks. The other invests in people. Which one would you choose? The answer reveals why intentionality about people isn't soft — it's strategic.

Pillar 1: Intentional collaboration It's not just about putting people in a room together. It's about being deliberate about how and why we collaborate. Katherine de la Poer's work with teams shows that intention changes everything — and Stacy Thomson argues we need to be intentional about humanity itself, not just at work but as a society.

Pillar 2: Flexible work experiences The "where do we work" debate is really a symptom of something deeper. In a VUCA world — volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous — flexibility isn't a perk, it's a survival strategy. Leanne breaks down the science of change and why small habits take about 30 days to shift.

Pillar 3: Empathy-based management Mel Murphy practices "unlimited positive regard" — coming into every situation assuming the best of everyone. It sounds simple, but it's transformative. And when difficult conversations do happen, Leanne shares the three types of conversation framework to help you navigate them with compassion.

The kindness business case Leanne's story from her crisis team days in West London is a powerful reminder: kindness isn't woke. Kindness is good for performance. Even the research backs it up.

The WTFG exercise Leanne's favourite reflective practice for challenging our own thinking errors — with an acronym that's equal parts catchy and memorable. What were you thinking? What was the thinking error? What's the evidence? What's a more balanced thought?

🎙️ Featured Guests

Catherine de la Poer — Leadership coach, emotional intelligence expert, founder of Halcyon (2017), and adjunct professor at Hult International School of Business.

Stacy Thomson — Qualified mental health practitioner, founder and CEO of The Performance Club, a mental wealth consultancy.

Mel Murphy — Senior People Manager at Birdie, a home healthcare technology company operating across the UK and Europe.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Catherine de la PoerNice.

Al ElliottCheck out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Mel MurphyA lot of the work of a really good people team is identifying what's needed and what we can, what we can create for people.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome Welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al and I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.

Al ElliottAnd if you're joining us on YouTube, you'll notice there's yet another different background. That's because we are now in Mostar in Bosnia and Herzegovina, one of our favourite countries. It's just an incredible place and Not only because a bag of ice is like a quid for like 3 kilos, but, uh, but also just beautiful people, beautiful countryside, and just a wonderful place, isn't it?

Leanne ElliottYeah, we're having a lovely time here. It's, um, it very much feels like home. Um, but this will be our setup for, for a few episodes now, I think, won't it?

Al ElliottYeah, we should be in this house for about, uh, for about 4 weeks, and then we're looking for somewhere hopefully for a year. So, um, you'll be— we'll be coming to you from BIH for hopefully a year, a long year.

Leanne ElliottToday we are talking about Human-centred workplaces.

Al ElliottYeah. Now this is the, one of the last episodes we got with our water, some of our Water Cooler guests. We've also got some other people on there as well. Um, and, um, we wanted to, we wanted to group these all together because although they are very different guests with kind of different backgrounds and different job titles, Leanne felt that this was a good theme. And also there's so much stuff around human-centric workplaces at the moment, isn't there, Lee?

Leanne ElliottYeah, it does seem to be a phrase that seems to have popped up and really gained momentum. Whether you say human-centred workplace, human-centric workplaces, they both basically mean that we design work around humans, not around the work or the jobs. So, we have 3 awesome experts that'll help us dive into that today.

Al ElliottSo, before we do that, it's our favourite time of the week. It's the news roundup.

Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.

Al ElliottWhat have you got, Leigh?

Leanne ElliottWell, I have a word of the week.

Al ElliottWord of the week alert.

Leanne ElliottCareer cushioning.

Al ElliottOh, career cushioning. You normally ask me what I think it is.

Leanne ElliottI do.

Al ElliottHmm. Now, what's interesting, I don't— obviously, I don't see these beforehand, so I'm just genuinely guessing. Career cushioning, I would think, is something like maybe you have a particularly strenuous project or job or role for a bit, then you might take a little bit of a slack time. And then you go back into another one. So, if you're a sort of a Type A personality, you might be like full on for 3 months, and then you might take a month off to go and do something which is still work, but perhaps a little bit easier.

Leanne ElliottA bit cushy.

Al ElliottA bit cushy. That's, that's where I was going. That's the cushy side of it. Yeah.

Leanne ElliottNo. I like that though. I like that. No, the idea of career cushioning is basically you look for, you basically keep your eyes and ears open for any jobs that might be of interest or might be suitable for you whilst you're already in employment. The idea is it's kind of having a plan B in case you're hit by redundancy or job insecurity or something happens at your workplace. It's basically just making sure you're not putting all your eggs in one basket, and that is being termed career cushioning.

Al ElliottThat makes sense. So, I mean, someone once told me that it's like you should act like a monkey, never let go of one branch until you've got hold of another. So you're kind of doing the similar sort of thing in that you're just You're just looking out for stuff that would be really good, and you don't want to let go of your current position until you've actually got a new position. Is that it? Or you're just actually just actively looking out for new, new roles?

Leanne ElliottJust, yeah, I guess you're kind of, you know, you've heard of like quiet, quiet hiring where organisations don't necessarily advertise jobs, but they'll keep a lookout for people. It's a similar thing, but in reverse. So you're not necessarily, I want to leave my job now, or I will lose my— leave my job as soon as I find another one. It's more a case of just keeping options open, keeping a lookout, keeping your LinkedIn updated, keeping your network up to date, uh, having conversations, keeping relationships going with recruiters. I think it's smart. There are some people that are questioning the, the ethical nature of this, to look for another job whilst you are in employment and, and arguably happily in employment. I don't see the issue. I think, I think it's so unpredictable, the economy that we're in right now and have been for the past 10, 15 years. I think anything can happen in terms of of redundancies. I think any successful person is usually quite strategic over their career moves, and that will mean, you know, always keeping that eye out for that next possible position. I think in terms of an organization, you know, if you're having these, these, um, these really robust conversations around professional development with your people, you'll know fine well if you are an organization that can cater for their future needs. And if not, how do we make sure that we're supporting that person in the long term? Because ultimately, what was that? I know it sounds cliché, but I that Richard Branson quote is really, really bang on. You know, treat people— or is it train people so they can leave, treat people so they won't? Oh, I like that. And I think that's, I think that's the, the ethos I would always go down is, you know, people want to develop and they're going to leave at some point if we can't provide those opportunities. Um, so yeah, career cushioning, I think, I think it's smart.

Al ElliottIt is. Sounds good. What else you got, Leight?

Leanne ElliottOh, well, a little, little story talking about career cushioning and why it's important in this unstable economy. Wilkinson's, the UK discount chain. Al, have you heard?

Al ElliottI did, unfortunately.

Leanne ElliottYeah, they are in a bit of a pickle. So, as of the 10th of August, they did collapse into administration, putting 400 jobs, sorry, 400 shops and 12,000 jobs at risk. It's really sad. 90 years Wilkinson's has been going. If you haven't heard of Wilkinson's, our North American listeners or our Australian listeners, how would you describe it, Al? Wilkinson's.

Al ElliottUm, I suppose like a cut-price Target. And we've been told that Target is kind of like just general, like a Walmart, but not without— so Wilko's doesn't really do food. It'll do things like you can go and buy foil, or you can go and buy toilet roll, you can go and buy cable ties, you can go and buy, um, shampoo. It's just this discount store. And I'm guessing what they did in the past was make deals with certain, like, much like Costco does, make deals, buy in bulk, and they can sell it a little bit cheaper. Um, It's, it's always had the kind of a strange place in our hearts as Brits because it's not somewhere where you'd necessarily want to be seen shopping. Um, like, you know, if, if I think a lot of people will go to Wilkinson's and take a different bag, a Sainsbury's carrier bag or like a different supermarket carrier bag to put their stuff in, 'cause they don't wanna be seen that they've been, uh, uh, they've been shopping in Wilko's. To be honest, I think most, if you ever go to a park in the UK and you find someone weird sitting on a bench drinking cider at 9 in the morning, there's a good chance they've got a Wilkinson's carrier bag next to 'em with all their stuff in it.

Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, I'd say that's fair.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.

Leanne ElliottBut yeah, it's had almost 100 years of trading, 12,000 jobs at risk. What was really cool about this story though, it's still ongoing. Currently, rescue efforts are still ongoing for finding a buyer to save Wilkinson and its staff. In the meantime though, we've had lots of other organisations, retailers such as similar, I guess what you'd call competitors, people like B&M, Poundland, actually post on LinkedIn and offer support and potential jobs to any staff that are at risk as well. Of course, a savvy move because, you know, if you're looking for staff, you've got a lot of qualified people about to pop out onto the job market. But equally, I thought it was just a quite nice sentiment, you know, if all these people are at risk and starting to worry, just to have a couple of companies come out, connect with people directly on LinkedIn, and say, get in touch, we might be able to find something for you. I thought that was quite nice. As it stands, nobody has been made redundant from Wilkinson's. Rescue efforts, as I mentioned, are continuing. So we'll see what happens. But yeah, I'm sure a very, very nervous and uncomfortable time for, for those many, many people that are currently waiting to see what happens.

Al ElliottFrom a business point of view, I'm always a little bit— not sceptical, but concerned about a business that is very low margin, works on high volume, low margin. Uh, the Costco obviously are doing it well, but Walmart, um, and I think it's Sam's Club, which is part of Walmart, it's like their Costco's equivalent. Anything that's, that's low margin, high volume, I always feel is a bit risky. So, um, if you are in that job, then perhaps you want to be doing a little bit of career cushioning just to, uh, have a little look around. How about that for a past referral?

Leanne ElliottVery nice.

Al ElliottWhat else you got, Lee?

Leanne ElliottWell, you will remember from not too long— was it last week? I feel like my weeks are rolling into— was it last week we talked about— no, it's birthday last week, wasn't it?

Al ElliottI have no idea. No, no, um, yes, no, I think birthday was 2 weeks ago, but anyway. It was in the last 2 weeks.

Leanne ElliottAt some point this month, we did an episode on the psychology of happiness. August has lasted for ages, hasn't it?

Al ElliottI know, it's weird, isn't it?

Leanne ElliottSo yeah, the psychology of happiness episode. After that, I got reflecting and started to wonder, I wonder what my network would say, um, to the question, should leaders be responsible for employee happiness? If you haven't listened to that episode, or if you can't remember our stance on it, go back and listen. So, I did a little poll, I did a poll on LinkedIn, Al. So, I asked people exactly that, are leaders responsible for the happiness of their employees? The poll was not conclusive, I'll tell you that. I think we had about a third of people say yes, a third of people say no, and a third of people say other. So, there didn't seem to be much consensus on that. I can't see who voted for what, but I did ask people to leave a comment to explain the answer that they gave, and I thought there were some very insightful people that I thought would maybe share. Some of their comments.

Al ElliottLovely.

Leanne ElliottYeah, so if I'm looking this way, it's because I'm reading the, the comments, so excuse me. Uh, but yes, so our first comment was from Danielle Wood. Danielle is a highly experienced HR professional consultant and coach that specialises in creating inclusive workplaces. She said, I think that happiness is a state that comes and goes like the seasons. If you don't experience the others, you don't appreciate when it's good. I think rather than being responsible for happiness, the leader is responsible for creating a psychologically safe space where people feel included, have purpose, have clarity, have opportunities for personal growth, and have the tools and support to achieve things. In doing this, people can flourish, build meaningful relationships, feel empowered to fulfill potential, and feel they are really seen and heard. All of this culminates in a strong sense of well-being. And moments of happiness.

Al ElliottLovely. Well said, Danielle. Well, well said. What is it? Is it Dolly Parton who says, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain? I think that's, that's, that is, to me, that's the whole point of happiness is that happiness is an elevated state to, you've gotta have both. You've gotta have unhappiness and happiness because otherwise happiness just becomes the norm. And then you're searching for, and then you become one of these weird people who are just searching, always searching for the next thing that's gonna make them happy. So. No. Well, yeah, well said. Totally.

Leanne ElliottI thought, I thought the mic drop moment from Danielle there. Uh, we also had a comment from Hayley Reese. Uh, Hayley is a content marketer and works very closely with Bernard Brogan, who was on our Founder Series not too long ago. Hayley said, I think ultimately our happiness is our responsibility, but leaders, managers, and work in general has a massive impact on our lives. So I don't think it's a leadership responsibility, but employee happiness is a priority for all great leaders.

Al ElliottNice, nice.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I quite like that as well. I quite like that it was a, a case of ultimately it's our responsibility, but let's not, let's not forget the impact that our leaders and managers can have on our, on our mood and on our happiness. So yeah, and I like that great leaders will take that in as a priority. And finally, I have a comment from Jordan Wilcock, who is police detective at Greater Manchester Police. I thought this summed up everything really beautifully. He said, leaders shouldn't be responsible for employee happiness, but they are most certainly responsible for employee unhappiness.

Al ElliottOh, nice, nice. Well put, Jordan. That was fantastic.

Leanne ElliottYeah, brilliant, brilliantly summarised there. Thank you so much. Thank you to everybody that voted, everybody that commented. Maybe we'll do that, do that again the future.

Al ElliottLovely, lovely. So have we got anything else we've got to talk about before we, we jump into our guests?

Leanne ElliottNo, that's me. So in this episode, we are talking about human-centric workplaces, and we have 3 awesome guests who are joining us to help us do that and specifically talk through the 3 main traits or characteristics of a human-centered workplace.

Al ElliottOkay, so first of all, we've got Katherine de la Poer. Um, I think it's still a poet. I'm sure Katherine will tell us if we get that wrong. Uh, she's a leadership coach and an expert in emotional intelligence. She founded her consultancy back in 2017 called Halcyon.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, cool name.

Al ElliottI like that. And she's also an adjunct professor at Hult International School of Business. So here's Katherine.

Catherine de la PoerI, um, work with individuals, with teams, particularly lots of teaming work right now, and organizations to create healthy human systems at work.

Leanne ElliottOur second guest is Stacy Thompson. Stacy is a qualified mental health practitioner and the founder and CEO of The Performance Club, a mental wealth consultancy.

StacyYeah, my name is Stacy.

Leanne ElliottI—

Stacymy background is I'm a mental health nurse, um, and I did an MSc in organizational psychology. But also I'm the founder of The Performance Club, so do a bit of performance coaching, a bit of training, but also ran the Minds at Work Network for a while. And I'm also an advisory board of Mad World and The Water Cooler.

Al ElliottAnd finally, Mel Murphy, who is the senior people manager at a company called Birdie. Really interesting company, by the way. Go and have a look at them. It's a home healthcare technology company that operates in UK and Europe and is growing phenomenally fast. So here's Mel explaining what Birdie does.

Mel MurphyBirdie is a, a tech startup on the mission to, to solve the social care crisis. Um, we've created an app that is essentially a communication pathway between visiting carers and the loved ones of older adults. And that way, um, kind of working towards making sure that older adults can age with confidence and age in their own homes rather than in nursing homes or, um, or hospital where the prognosis isn't, isn't so good.

Al ElliottSo shall we start, Leigh, with the burning question that I've got, even though I wrote the title for this, is what is a human-centric workplace?

Leanne ElliottIt is a good question and a good place to start. I like how you've structured this episode, the, uh, the important questions up front. Um, but yes, human-centered workplace, it's an extension really in terms of the term of human-centered design, which is what I understand to be a problem-solving technique that basically puts people at the center of it. Um, and the 5 steps of that, if you are interested, is to empathize, define, ideate, prototype and test. So, an extension of those types of ideas, so a human-centric workplace is one that revolves around its people and really will consider their specific needs. As I said, it's about the human and the person rather than necessarily the work. So, using human-centred design to craft our workplaces, it probably won't come as too much of a surprise that really that's going to be very much based on asking our people what they need.

StacyMm-hmm.

Leanne ElliottWhat's going to, you know, that empathic concern, what is going to make their jobs easier, um, understanding their pain points and designing our workplace to meet needs and remove pains. It could also be called an employee-centric workplace or a people-first workplace. So while this isn't necessarily a, a term that psychologists have necessarily come up with, I think it's really stemmed from more, um, management and business in, in general in terms of theory and practice, um, rather than psychology. With that in mind, I would— I probably wouldn't call it necessarily a type of culture, but more a philosophy that would sit behind leadership and organizational development. I think psychology is maybe more likely to talk about psychologically healthy workplaces or empathic workplaces. So different terms, but very much the same principles, ultimately about making work rewarding, making it meaningful, and preventing psychological harm.

Al ElliottSo as always, I'm going to ask the question, sounds lovely, but is there a business case for this?

Leanne ElliottYeah, well, it's, you know, as we've talked a lot about culture before and putting people at the heart of culture and the benefits that come with that, in terms of specific research that's done around human-centric work models, research by Gartner has shown that when people are seen as people and not just resources, they are 3.8 times more likely to be high-performing. They're also 3.2 times more likely to stay within their job and 1.3 times more likely to see lower levels of fatigue, so much higher levels of resilience there. So Gartner's research went on to identify the 3 pillars of human-centric workplace. And these 3 are what we're going to talk about today. They are intentional collaboration, flexible work experiences, and empathy-based management.

Al ElliottYou— I think regular listeners will know that I'm always looking for like this. Leanne's like, this is the perfect, this is what, this is the nice to have. I'm always looking for the business case behind it. We have all of our guests have got massive experience in this, in this field, um, and they all talk like very realistically and practically about these kind of steps. So Should we kick off with the first one, Lee?

Leanne ElliottYes. So the first pillar of a human-centric workplace is intentional collaboration. Intention. I think intention is the word of 2023. It seems to come up every episode, and not just from us, from our, from our guests as well. So this is really about intentionality of thinking. You're, you're, you're actively working to establish a human-centric workplace, being intentional about designing a workplace for humans and for creativity and collaboration. Let's hear more from Katherine.

Catherine de la PoerAs we start putting in place measures for what it means to be human at work, as we start to think about what does it mean to be a high-performance organisation, we have to start looking at the psychology of human beings to really understand what that, what that means. And that is about obviously physical health, very, very important, mental health. And this, the mind-body connection, we're starting to learn so much more about that, that actually the 2 things are completely interconnected. And then we all also have a sort of metaphysical life, a spiritual life, which is why actually Um, understanding ourselves through the lens of the arts, um, through creativity.

Al ElliottSo that was Catherine de la Poer from Halcyon. Um, being intentional about your work environment means thinking about the humans. It's no longer about trying to get the most out of your employees, as Stacy explains.

StacyOrganizations now need to think about how do we lean into human behavior? How do we lean into the human condition? How do we help our employees emotionally manage themselves better, become more mentally agile. Think about cognitive flexibility. I love teaching the concept of the corporate athlete, which is all about, you know, you see athletes who literally spend hours and hours and hours training for one-off event where they're then gonna be measured for their success, right? Whereas us as executives, We spend all of our hours performing on what we're gonna be measured about and literally basic 10% on practicing, which is silly. And it's interesting because when you teach it, even the human, the employee really struggle with the concept because we've got so addicted or so entrenched in this belief that, you know, working harder produces more when actually it's about working better in a healthier way, in the, in the view that, you know, the energy that you give out, you must also take back in, because your body needs to be able to perform at its very best, and it can't do that if you're just depleting it all the time of lots of energy.

Leanne ElliottIntentionality isn't just about strategy though. It's about being very clear about what solves a problem from the perspective of your employees. This is very much that adult-to-adult conversation, and you know the word for that, regular listeners. That is called employee voice. Birdie were very intentional in using employee voice when it came to putting together their benefits packages. Let's hear more on that from Mel Murphy at Birdie.

Mel MurphyAnd our values aren't necessarily to offer the best benefits package, but to offer the most sustainable benefits package, so to make sure that what we're delivering is actually what people need. I think this is the thing when we talk about wellbeing, there are so many products and so many really well-intentioned offerings out there that a lot of the work of a really good people team is identifying what's needed and what we can create for people. And a lot of that work happens before you adopt a product or a platform. A lot of that work happens in creating psychological safety and developing your ways of working so that they support flexibility and, um, support people being their whole selves at work.

Al ElliottIf you've ever met Stacy Thompson, you'll find that she's larger than life. She's got boundless energy, and it won't surprise you to hear that Stacy also thinks we should be intentional in our lives as well.

StacyWe really need to be more intentional, um, as a, as a society. I'm not talking just about employers. I'm talking about as human beings, we need to stop getting carried away by all of these things that have been put into the world to make other people money, but to get us addicted to it because those are, they're harmful for us, for our longevity. You know, if I look at sustainability of the human, as us as humans, you know, if I think if we carry on on the current trajectory, you know, that doesn't look very good in my eyes. You know, so just reinforces, like I say, why I'm on this planet. You know, I think I'm on this planet to help others, to create a great change for a great amount of people. And all of this stuff just reinforces that, yeah, what I'm doing is right.

Al ElliottSo Stacy really gets to the heart of intentional collaboration here. She means, she says it's about discussing and making decisions for the long-term benefit of us all. Now, intention to be human-centric starts company and its leadership, and that intention needs to be shared with its employees. So once we've decided we're going to be intentional about human-centric, we now need to be a lot more intentional about our mission and our purpose. What's the reason that people come to work for us? Birdie have always been very intentional by outlining their mission from day one, and that's ensured that every individual at Birdie is very clear on their intentions too. There are some regular retreats that Birdie run that allow everyone in the company to be really clear on why they work there, which in turn leads to an amazing culture of community and shared purpose. Here's Mel to explain more.

Mel MurphySo we have, we have 4 co-founders who are still very, very active in, in our day-to-day. Um, Max, our CEO, um, and Gwen, our, uh, Chief Information Security Officer. Um, were the two who really came up with the idea based on an experience that Max had with his grandparents. And so it's always been, the mission has always been very personal. We have a retreat, a company retreat every year where we all go over kind of why we're here, and it's really interesting to hear those stories change over time. But every single person at Birdie has a reason to be there. Um, and has a very personal reason for being there. It's a highly, highly emotional session. Um, we do it, we do it every year, and I'm always surprised by how many tears there are. Um, but also brings us all much closer together because we all know why we're there, and it really helps us kind of feel united in driving our mission. So this year, for the first time, in fact last week, we had, um, 3 different retreats kind of 2 days for groups of teams. So, we had a commercial, a delivery, and a core operations retreat, which gave each of those kind of groups of teams, um, opportunity to really strategize together, to really bond. We have a very flat structure at Birdie, so it's operationally really important that we all get together and we strategize together, and we're all really aligned with the direction that we're going in, and we all have an opinion and are able to share that opinion in a forum. with our peers. So that's definitely a focus for us moving forward, kind of getting better at doing those smaller retreats.

Al ElliottSo we asked Katherine, what is this business case for intentionality? Why do we have to think carefully about what culture we intend to create? Katherine explains.

Catherine de la PoerSo we, we get to choose to put £1 million, $1 million into a business, and we're looking at these 2 businesses dispassionately, which is what institutional investors or venture capitalists, private equity companies do. They look at these businesses, okay, what do the numbers look like? And then you start to scratch below the surface of numbers. And let's imagine you've got Company A and Company B, and you know, for example, that absence rates in Company B are very, very high, that burnout rates in Company B are really, really high. So what does that tell you about the culture what it feels like to work around here. It's clearly got a problem.

Leanne ElliottWe are seeing more and more investors request people and culture data in their due diligence. If you are looking to scale and exit your business, these are metrics you need to be collecting. These are metrics your investors will want to see in the future. High turnover, absenteeism, burnout— they're bad for business and they're bad news for investors. Human-centered businesses don't experience these issues, and that is not only good for business, it's very good for growth. Birdie were very intentional about their culture, and they knew once they reached 100 employees, they needed an in-house people and culture team to help them with their workplace culture. And as a result, they have seen huge growth.

Mel MurphyUm, but our first formal people hire was around 100 people, and so we've been really intentional in in growing the people function as being super data-led, super forward-thinking. I personally have spent 13 years in, in Tech for Good startup, and so I have a lot of experience of, of the impact of being really mission-driven, um, and what that does to people, because people really feel our mission. They care so much about it that they put everything into it. And so the way that we need to care for those people is unique. We need to make sure that we're being really proactive. We need to make sure that we're being really targeted because ultimately we are a B Corp startup as well. So we don't have the bags of budget that some big corporations have to throw into wellbeing initiatives. And instead, we have a very, very well-intentioned and experienced people team building really targeted initiatives and making sure that what we are building is is what people need and at the right time rather than too late, which tends to be what happens, as you alluded to, when people don't hire people teams early on.

Al ElliottOkay, so that is the first foundation of a human-centric workplace— intentional collaboration. If we were to sum that up, Leah, have you got a few pithy words you can throw at us?

Leanne ElliottI think it's being intentional around being people first, making that commitment at the highest level at senior leadership and at board level. Second, it's then translating that into a clear vision and purpose for your team. We're all motivated by something that we believe in, so to be human-centric, we need to be uniting people in that shared vision. 3, employee voice sits at the heart of intentional collaboration and human-centric cultures, so we really need to be embracing that. And bonus, employee voice is going to give us the metrics that our investors want to see. should we want to scale our business. And also, we know from what we've heard from our experts and from the research that things like burnout, absenteeism, presenteeism, and turnover are typically very, very low in human-centric organisations.

Al ElliottLovely. Okay, so that's number one. The second of 3 foundations is flexible work experiences. Leah, what do we need to know about this?

Leanne ElliottFlexible work experiences— this really is the conversation of the moment, isn't it? Is it remote work? Is it back to the office? Which one's right? Which one's wrong? And the answer, as always, is somewhere in the middle. And this is what flexible work experience is all about. Most business leaders will accept now that change is the only constant. We can just, we can just rely on the fact that at some point shit's gonna hit the fan and things are going to go wrong again. And I think what the pandemic was really awesome for is it showed actually how adaptable we are and actually how many businesses were able to flip to a remote, fully remote model very quickly, and for the vast majority, very effectively. I don't think it really matters where businesses fall, whether they're remote first, whether they're office first. I would imagine that all businesses now within their business continuity plans will have a scenario for another pandemic, for another circumstance where we will all need to flip to remote work again. And this is where having a human-centric workplace with flexible work built within it is not only going to be supportive for our people and their needs, but also for our business in this VUCA world that we live in. Do you remember VUCA, Al? Do you remember what it stands for?

Al ElliottUh, something uncertainty, calamity, and the almighty God coming down and sending a plague. No, I don't remember what VUCA is. What does it stand for?

Leanne ElliottUh, volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Basically, we don't know what's around the around the corner. We have no idea. So being flexible is really all we can hope for. I think as well, you know, change is inevitable as an organisation grows, and growth is one of the biggest threats to culture. And this is where we can see leaders be very protective over the culture and trying to keep it the same. We talked before on the podcast about how actually, rather than trying to protect your culture, look at perhaps evolving your culture and giving your team the autonomy and agility they need to not only navigate their roles and the different circumstances that come with it, but also be more agile to change. Embracing change and flexibility in the workplace was also a recurrent theme amongst our guests today. Mel highlighted the need for a flexible culture that evolved with the organisation, while Stacy advocated for embracing change and discomfort for growth. Catherine also emphasised that redefining productivity and collaboration is really important. Being resilient in the face of change is a great trait, but in some cases you need to actually welcome change. Here's Katherine.

Catherine de la PoerSo, you know, we can, we can be pulled towards things— love, trust, irresistible organisations which put human experience front and centre— or we can run away because we're afraid, because we're fearful. And for me, I think a lot of the 20th century within organizations, within the workplace, were really built on the back of quite old-school models of how humans are motivated, what makes humans tick. And there was very much a kind of carrot and stick approach. I'm the boss and you're gonna do what I say, which is actually, now that we know everything we know about humans and human psychology and intrinsic motivation, we understand that that actually goes completely against what it means to be human, what it means to be a productive citizen, what it means to be somebody who engages with the world. with a full heart at work. And people are saying, no, this isn't working for me anymore. I'm actually deeply unhappy. I'm stressed out. We're seeing burnout rates at a ridiculous level now in organizations. People are resigning left, right, and center. We've got a million job vacancies open right now in the United Kingdom. Something's gotta go. Something's gotta change. And I think we've got, there's a huge opportunity now to create the most amazing, healthy workplaces fit for humans.

Al ElliottThe other benefit to change is that it does create this tension and challenges, which sounds like it's not a benefit, but it is because the human, human mind requires this very fine balance. This is what I've learned from Leanne. Too much change makes us feel threatened and stressed, and we're on high alert. And if we're left like that too long, we can experience this burnout. But the same is true if we are not challenged. If we are bored or we see no meaning in our work, there's no opportunity to progress, then that's called rust out, which we talked about about 6 episodes ago. And both of the, both of these are bad for our mental health. So we need this balance. So some change and challenge is good. for the mind, the body, and the soul because it makes us feel alive, as Stacy explains.

StacyI think the only thing that we know about life is that change is like, it happens every day. And like, I think people are scared to be uncomfortable, but if you're not uncomfortable, you're not growing and you're not learning. Like, I think sometimes we're more accepting of some of these things. Like, I find it really weird that people like sign up to uni. I mean, uni's dreadful. Like, it's— I did a master's for a year and like, I had— the only reason I got through it is because first of all, I'm not a quitter. And second of all, like I said to myself at the start, like this year is gonna be hell. Like I know it's gonna be hell, but I'm gonna get through it. And I used to say that to myself when I was done knee deep in assignments. And I think somehow we seem to get over that. Like we seem to get over the concept of this is gonna be dreadful if I'm gonna get a degree at the end of it. But we're not so great at that in our day-to-day life. We seem to think that there's there's no challenge. And like, the challenge is in the journey, right? The challenge is every day, like expanding your brain to learn new things and to do new things and experiencing new things. And I think the problem with— the actual problem is when you become static, your brain like doesn't know how to cope with that. Like, we're on this planet to grow.

Al ElliottAnother change we're seeing as part of this progression is, and particularly in high stress environments is the phasing out of competitive workplaces and old-fashioned managers. In fact, it's probably down to those pesky Gen Zers again, um, who are demanding that this workplace is changing into this new type of culture.

Catherine de la PoerWhat's really, really interesting to me is seeing how the science is changing from, you know, compete, compete, compete, to actually human beings over the past thousands of years, what has enabled us to survive and thrive has actually been our kindness and our ability to collaborate. It's not the compete, it's actually the kindness and the collaboration. And I think that, and I think the over-financialization of the system that we live in has pitted us against each other. And I think power, power dynamics in systems have pitted us against each other, the haves, the have-nots. So, I think that's, that's the big, that's the change I'm looking for.

Leanne ElliottSo, providing a great workplace environment is all about helping our people to create these boundaries. It's gonna help them live healthily and also socialise freely. Socialisation at work was maybe once a no-no. And I think, you know, these days we've not only learned that socialisation is really important to make work more human-centric, but also to create these psychologically safe environments. We want to trust people, we want to have positive relationships with our peers, with our colleagues, with our managers, to spark this collaboration and creativity. Katherine explains how Google did this.

Catherine de la PoerGoogle has been famous for this. They now, you know, going to the gym, taking a run, going on whatever, all of that stuff, yoga, the physical exertion to get your mind in the right place. They're, you know, that's part of a Google employee's everyday now. It's not just something you do kind of on the side. So they've brought all of this stuff in to, so, you know, focused work, collaborative working, rest and recovery, and socializing. Guess what? Socializing is part of how humans work. If you think about the process of creativity and innovation, I need to socialize the idea. I need to push the idea through the organization. I need to kind of get feedback from people. So I think this sort of one-dimensional view of what it is for a human to be productive It's just been smashed, and we realise that actually there's multiple modes of working, and that's what, that's what organisations have the opportunity to embrace.

Leanne ElliottIn fact, resisting change is massively counterproductive. It might feel really natural to be protective of our culture, but as you grow, and even more so for high-growth companies, your culture will Mel talks about this as culture add.

Mel MurphyI've worked in so many startups where there is this narrative around protecting culture. We must protect the culture, the culture must stay the same, when actually, if you're really embracing culture and values, what your culture should be doing with every single person that leaves and joins is adapting slightly, flexing slightly. The intentions should be the same, and we should make sure that those intentions follow through in all the work that we do. But our culture will change, and it will shift because everyone who comes in is a culture add, is a value add. And we need to be able to embrace that change. And we need to, like, we need to appreciate it for what it is, because it's, it's a really cool and beautiful thing that everyone who comes in has something to add to our product, to our culture, to our mission.

Al ElliottIt is really important to accept, though, that this kind of change doesn't happen overnight. Rarely any change does. It requires some time, some patience, and this openness to learning. Here's Stacy to explain a bit more.

StacyAnd what they say is that you, a small habit will take about 30 days to change, a medium habit like 3 months, and a bigger habit, 6 months, right? But that's when you're practicing that every single day. Like we call it deliberate practice, right? So it's a bit like if I was to turn, if you were to tell me that you wanted to become a really great pianist, Like you couldn't just decide that today and then tomorrow play me a bit of Mozart, right? You would have to go through like some sort of form of learning, teaching, and practice in order to get where you need to be. And even then you would still have to maintain that to keep your skills up, right? And it's exactly the same thing when it comes to our mental health, right? So if we want to work on something, we have to do the learning, do the developing. We might get a teacher to us, and we need to deliberately practice every day until we get to a point where we think, yeah, we've got this. But then we also have to maintain it, which most people don't want to do. They want a quick fix, which is why our pharmaceutical business is so massive, right?

Al ElliottSo before we go on to number 3, can you just sum up for us flexible work experiences, Leigh?

Leanne ElliottYeah, I think flexible work experience is about creating that flexibility responsibility for our people to help them build resilience to change. Change is, is going to stay with us. So I think it really is about creating environments in which people feel able, resilient, and agile to the, the changes that are inevitably going to come up, whether within our control as a growth organization or whether it be external factors. The second, I think, leadership being open to change and also change within the organization as you grow Your culture, your organisation will change, your role within it will change too. It's being open to that and embracing that. And I think finally doing those 2 things is gonna help build positive relationships within your organisation. And as we know, they are the key to psychological safety, which in turn is the key to creativity and collaboration.

Al ElliottFabulous. So that was foundation number 2. Foundation number 3 is empathy-based management. Leigh, what do we need to know about this?

Leanne ElliottWell, a strong trait in people who are empathetic and compassionate is emotional intelligence. It helps us be a better leader, it helps to be a better team player, and all in all, being honest, just a better person. Empathy-based management is something that is talked about more and more frequently, and I think that the key for me— there's different elements of empathy. I think the key for me, and the one that seems to resonate most with the people that may be a bit more skeptic or think this is a bit fluffy and soft to be empathetic as a leader is empathic concern. What can I do as a leader to make your job easier and make you more productive? The importance of creating workplaces that prioritize this type of empathy will breed human connection, and that emotional intelligence is also going to be what underpins authentic relationships. All 3 of our speakers shared this view that empathy is fundamental when it comes to effective management in today's organisations. Mel emphasised that relationship building and a mission-driven culture, while Stacy focused on emotional management. Catherine stressed the importance of power skills and the acknowledgement of emotions at work. Here's Catherine.

Catherine de la PoerAnd I'm particularly interested in emotional intelligence. Because for me, I think that's the secret sauce of great leadership. And it is also, it's how we make workplaces more human. So it's what a lot of people call the soft skills, what I like to call human skills or power skills. So yeah, I work with organizations to help people to really understand, um, the impact of bringing emotion and feeling back to work. Because when I started 30 years ago, emotions weren't really wanted at work. In fact, it was almost like, leave your emotions at the door, they're not required here.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing We actually have a lot in common.

Al ElliottWe both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.

Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Al ElliottIt is.

Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I am.

Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottJust before we go on to Mel to talk about emotional intelligence, I heard what might be the worst example of the difference between empathy and sympathy the other day on Twitter. Leanne's example of the difference between empathy and sympathy is if someone's stuck in a hole, a big hole, then sympathy is standing at the top of the hole and going, oh, that looks horrible. I hope you're okay. Empathy is getting a ladder, getting down into the hole and going, oh, it's dark down here, isn't it? This guy on Twitter was saying, oh, the difference between empathy and sympathy is imagine you're standing on the edge of a ship and someone's throwing up. Sympathy is standing next to them and giving them a sick bag and saying, are you okay? Empathy is throwing up with them. I thought that was a very strange analogy.

Leanne ElliottI'm not sure that's it.

Al ElliottI don't think it is either.

Leanne ElliottI think it's a good effort. I admire it. The, the, the try.

Al ElliottGood try. C minus. So Mel talks about emotional intelligence quite a lot. Now, she said it's sometimes difficult to listen without judgment, and I think all of us struggle with this. But Mel, who seems to have nailed this emotional intelligence, um, has a great way to listen without judgment.

Mel MurphyI, I practice something called unlimited positive regard. So I will come into every situation and For anyone who studied Mental Health First Aid, this is a key concept of that, um, is not having judgment in any situation. So just being completely open. And even if someone is coming at you and going, this is awful, I hate this, you are just a recipient of that. You're hearing it. That's their perspective. That's their lived experience. You have no place to judge in that space. Hear them out and therefore create that, that safety for them so that they continue— can continue to communicate in that way.

Leanne ElliottI think as humans, it's almost impossible for us not to be judgmental in, in some way. You know, we're gonna have an opinion on what somebody is thinking or saying or experiencing. I think it's more a case of be judgmental, just shut the fuck up about it. Like, you know, if I'm gonna listen to you and be empathetic and, and try and, try and help you in this situation, you don't need my opinion. I can have it, and I can maybe go back to them, you know, back home to my partner and go, you won't believe what Jeff said today, you know. But I don't— I just don't think— I just, you know.

Al ElliottSo regular listeners will know that Leanne and I used to volunteer for a charity called the Samaritans in the UK. The whole point of that is non-judgmental listening, but it is so difficult to listen to someone and put your judgment to one side, particularly when it's something which you've been in, been through yourself.

Leanne ElliottIt can be. And I think, again, this is why, you know, as a manager, if there's one skill that you're going to develop, it's that listening skills. And I think really, you know, coaching is a brilliant way to— in terms of training, you know, training in some kind of coach-based leadership is really effective because it teaches you all these skills. It's not about changing your opinion. It's not about changing how you think things should operate or work. It's about learning that your opinion in this moment is not It's not important, and it's not going to be helpful. Lovely.

Al ElliottLovely. We should get a t-shirt with that on.

Leanne ElliottYour opinion is not helpful.

Al ElliottWe don't care. No, we do care about your opinion.

Leanne ElliottOh, it is though, all right? That's why we've got podcasts.

Al ElliottYeah, if you've got a microphone, you're allowed an opinion.

StacySo.

Leanne ElliottDo you have a microphone?

Al ElliottYeah, maybe that's not a good judgement. We have listened to some podcasts where they perhaps shouldn't have microphones. Anyway, so—

Leanne ElliottOoh, shade who?

Al ElliottI'm not gonna say anything.

Leanne ElliottUgly one who?

Al ElliottNo, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying because the whole point is that, is that—

Leanne ElliottNo judgement.

Al ElliottNo judgement. Although there's plenty of judgement here. So if your workplace feels like it's squeezing every single drop of work from you, then it just feels like you are surviving, not thriving. Now, Katherine talks about this compassionate environment, which helps people to thrive instead.

Catherine de la PoerIncreasingly, organisations are starting to realise that if you want to have people thriving. You know, there's a scale here, isn't there, between people who are surviving and then what we really want with engagement is we want people who are actually thriving, who are leaning into work, where we're getting more than just a 9 to 5 out of them. So I think there's huge bodies of research now that evidence the importance of the investment in whole human being if you want to have a productive, um, high-performing workforce.

Al ElliottThe perfect example of this is the idea that leaders or management or senior management seem to think that everyone should be at work and doing 8 hours of focused nonstop work. We can't do that. We all know that 8 hours of focused work is impossible, like with anything. Especially work.

Catherine de la PoerThere is a recognition of what does it mean to be human? Well, I think one of the things about being human is being on your A-game and doing 100% focused work for 8 hours a day is just nonsense. It's just not true. So then what is emerging from all of the neuroscience now about being in the flow of work, Because best guess what? That's when we do our best thinking. That's when we do our innovating. And going back to this idea of, you know, if you're an investor, you've got Company A, you've got Company B, where do you put your money? Do you know what? I want to put my money into that healthy workforce. I wanna put my money where people want to go to work, where there are low indicators of burnout, where there are, you know, where people are actually socialising at work. They're doing focused work for some of the day, but they're also doing collaborative working, because guess what? That's what humans like to do best. We're kind of made for that collaboration, social piece, where there's also— you're building rest and recovery into the working day.

Leanne ElliottStacy made a really awesome observation. She feels that the pandemic has forced us all to be a little more kind to each other and to ourselves.

StacyAnd I actually think the pandemic enabled us to connect with people in a way we've not been able to do in a long while, and also able us to soothe ourselves without the distractions that we often have to pay for, because those things weren't available to us. So we had to think outside of the box, um, and I think also enabled us to I guess, appreciate somewhat the finer things in life. It kind of calmed that dopamine aspect of us and actually allowed a lot more of the serotonin, longer-term happiness, oxytocin-type activity, which is caring for each other, hanging out with like one another when we can, communicating, all of that stuff. So I think coming out of the pandemic, it just reinforced my values, you know, about kind— how much kindness is important, how much friendship is important, how much connection is important. You know, yes, achievement, success, you know, doing well in life. Yeah, it, it can help you along those ways. But if you don't have the fundamental basics, then inevitably you will feel the wrath of the human condition. You will feel disappointed and sad and ashamed and guilty.

Leanne ElliottAnd Katherine completely agrees.

Catherine de la PoerThat kindness is the, is the highest form of intelligence. I'm very fortunate to be married to a man who's incredibly kind. And it's something that, it's a value and a trait that I really respect in other people. And I think that is the beginning of change, being kind to yourself, being compassionate to yourself, as we talked about earlier, forgiving self. And I think that has gotta be the beginning of of a massive transformational change. All change has to start with, with self. If you're gonna go on some kind of transformation journey, organizational wellbeing journey, it starts with myself. What is, what is the world I want to create?

Al ElliottOkay, so we know that compassion means kindness, but what happens when you have to have a difficult conversation with someone? As most leaders at some point in their career will have to do. Well, can you still be compassionate? Mel from Birdie explains that she thinks you can.

Mel MurphySo I went over this concept that, um, there are 3 types of conversation. All, all conversations fall into one of 3 types. They are relationship building, possibility building, or moving towards action. And I see them as like a, a child stacking toy, you know, the one with the, the stick and 3 donuts on it. And the key for me is that foundational element, which is building a relationship, understanding your peers, understanding your direct reports, understanding your manager in a way that embraces them as their whole self, not just the person that they turn up to work as. So, are we asking the right questions? Are we listening? Are we hearing, which are 2 different things? And are we really understanding who this person is? is, are we creating space for them to be able to say, actually, I'm not aligned with this project, this is my flag, I think this is a blocker? You know, are we creating those spaces? Because if we aren't, what we're doing is we're driving, driving people to deliver on things that they, they don't feel psychologically safe working on. And so build that relationship first, allow people to show up as their whole selves, and then when you have those tough conversations, they're a lot easier to have because you're you're, you're coming at it from a place of mutual trust.

Al ElliottSo being kind to yourself is so, so important. I think often comparing yourself to others is the worst thing you can do. It was Teddy Roosevelt who said that comparison is the thief of joy. Why would you count someone else's blessings instead of your own?

StacyLike, I, I remember working for a crisis team over in West London, which is attached to Imperial College, right? Genius college for mathematicians, scientists and you'd have people that had been top of the tree in their secondary school, done really well. And then suddenly they were surrounded by other geniuses and no longer were they at the top of the tree. They were like 25 in their class and they literally could not handle— to them, they were then a failure. They could not see the bigger picture. They could not take a helicopter view and compare themselves to any other student within the UK. They compared themselves to that year group, and they would rather have a, a diagnosed mental illness, so there was a reason for them becoming 25, or they'd rather die. And I find that absolutely shocking that a person would rather not be on this planet rather than not get an A. And that's how much kind of pressure is put on our younger kids nowadays.

Leanne ElliottSo, this idea of kindness might sound, I don't know, lefty, woke, wishy-washy, fluffy, some may say. Maybe it's just for those organisations that plant trees, that have mindfulness at lunch, some kind of vegan menu in the cafeteria, Al.

Al ElliottOat milk Frappuccinos.

Leanne ElliottI do enjoy an oat milk Frappuccino, actually.

Al ElliottYou've changed, man.

Leanne ElliottBut anyway, no, kindness isn't woke. Kindness is good for business. Kindness is good for performance. Even the F1 teams that Stacy works with embrace kindness.

StacyWhen you're working for a high-performance team, like the, the trials and tribulations, and also like what you give, like life-wise, like a lot of those guys are like away every single week. They, their sleep patterns all over the place, and like the highs and the lows of the win is like difficult. And I think it's the same with if you think about like other type of performers, musicians, you know. And there's also not just the drivers but the whole team around them that sacrifice their life, go away from their families. And, you know, so I think the Formula 1 team that I work with are very forward-thinking about supporting their staff and also want to be making sure that, you know, if People are struggling, that they're able to come out and speak out and get the support that they need. Right?

Al ElliottSo kindness to yourself is so important, and it can include challenging our own assumptions about ourselves and our circumstances. Leanne taught me this idea of cognitive thinking error, and it's really common when you're feeling stressed or overwhelmed or unsure about the future. You may have heard it called irrational thinking or irrational beliefs. And whilst they're irrational, they're definitely not uncommon.

Leanne ElliottThey're not uncommon, and I think this is why psychoeducation is really important. By understanding ourselves and us, our own thoughts as humans, how our mind works, will help us be kind to ourselves and over time be kind to others. There are many, many different types of thinking errors. Um, there may be some that more common. And I think if we can start to identify these types of thinking errors in ourselves and in our teams, that will really start to help us be more effective and empathic as managers. So to name a few that you might see pop up or observe in either yourself or others more frequently: mind reading or jumping to conclusions, particularly conclusions that we don't have control over. For example, if I don't work overtime, then I'll get sacked. That is an example, an example of mind reading. Another one is all-or-nothing thinking, or thinking in extremes. So things like, uh, my job is awful, this, um, this situation is terrible, uh, this customer is the worst, this always happens to me. That's all-or-nothing thinking. Labeling is another type thinking error that can be very detrimental to our self-esteem, to our self-efficacy. This is where we basically call ourselves names. We'll say, I'm an idiot, I'm stupid, um, you know, why would anybody, you know, want to be around me because I'm such an idiot? That's the type of labeling of ourselves that is, is, as I said, is really destructive. That's probably one as well you'll find coming up within your teams as well if they are struggling with stress. Um, they'll start to label themselves in this way. And the final one that is quite common, phonyism. This will probably sound familiar. It's where you'll say things like, you know, if I, if I perform badly, people will see the real me. They'll know that I'm a fraud. That is essentially imposter syndrome, and phonyism is a thinking error that sits behind imposter syndrome. So there are some common thinking errors. There are many others. I would absolutely suggest that you try to start to identify these in your own way of thinking and with those in your teams. And to help with that, Al, I thought we would finish this episode with a little suggested exercise, a little challenge for our listeners to maybe start to help them identify these thinking errors. What do you think?

Al ElliottYeah, but I'm terrible at these exercises. See what I just did there? I labelled.

Leanne ElliottVery good. Very good, Al. You're all over this.

Al ElliottOnly because I know that if, if I'm really stressed or if I'm having a bit of a bad day and I drop something, I do tend to go, oh, you're a dick, Al. Because— and Leanne always shouts at me for it. But I was— I, before, I was like, oh well, I'm just, you know, I'm just expressing how frustrated I am. But she's right, that is labelling and that's not very helpful. But so this exercise, what do we need to do?

Leanne ElliottSo this is— dare I, dare I use the word journaling? I know we have some British listeners. Listeners that might be like, hmm, although I think that is— the opinion is changing. What can really help us to identify these thinking errors is to create a record of them and to start to identify patterns. So, the first thing to do, and I've got a little, is it an anagram? Is that what you call it? It's not an anagram, is it? That's the other one.

Al ElliottAcronym or anagram? Acronym is when it's like NATO.

Leanne ElliottThat one.

Al ElliottYep. You've got an acronym.

StacyYeah.

Leanne ElliottI've called it... WTFG.

Al ElliottOh, I like it. Very, very gangster and contemporary. Okay, G.

Leanne ElliottOkay, G. So, the W. W.

Al ElliottYep.

Leanne ElliottWhat were you thinking? What was it? What was the thinking error? Just write it down exactly as it appeared in your head. So, as Al said, you know, you drop something, you say, oh, you're such an idiot. Just write that down. I'm such an idiot. The T, timing. Where were you? Try to think about the place, the situation. Was it at home? Was it at work? Was it after a terrible phone call with a customer or with a colleague? The other aspect of timing as well is how many times did you think about it afterwards, particularly if you've labelled yourself? How many times have you repeated that in your head that you're such an idiot or you're such a failure? Do you tend to have these types of thoughts in similar situations? So for example, Is it after a moment of confrontation or a moment of high stress, meeting a deadline? Are there any patterns in terms of the timing of these thinking areas? So that's your T. Your F is your feeling. Once you have the thought and the situation, identify the emotion that it causes to you, that thinking error. Is it frustration? Is it anger? Is it sadness? Is it embarrassment? Is it humiliation? Is it insecurity? What is the feeling that comes along with that thinking error? And why that's important is that often we're not very good at being congruent in how we're thinking and how we're feeling, or expressing how we're feeling with the right emotion. For example, we might feel very angry on the inside, but externally we're expressing that as tears and it looks like sadness. So labelling the feeling we experience along with that thinking error can also help us understand it a little bit more. And finally, G, that's where we want to group the themes together. So after a while, a few days, the end of the week, look through the notes that you've made and try to group these thoughts into some type of theme. Is it when you'll have, you know, they always happen after an interaction with a certain manager? A certain customer, a certain person? Is it a certain time of day? Is it a certain context? Is it more in home-based situations? What themes can we pull together? And it could be anything from a person to skipping breakfast that day. Any theme that brings these things together can help you understand them and identify them. In terms of the thinking errors themselves, you might want to try and group them together in terms of the definition of the thinking error, Or you can look at something more simple for things like, you know, thoughts that are always, always, or never will go together. That extreme thinking. I always miss important meetings. I never say smart things. Nobody appreciates me. So just to recap that WTFG, that's where, the timing, the feeling, and then grouping those things together to see any patterns. Once you've done this for a couple of weeks, maybe a month, this is a type of objective data that's going to really help you to understand when you've been unkind to yourself and why you've been unkind to yourself. Sometimes it's not that obvious. Sometimes it's hard to catch. If we can write it down, if we can reflect on these things, we can see these patterns, we can start to take steps to be more kind to ourselves. And as I said, over time, more kind to others.

Al ElliottI love it. I love it. I didn't expect to end up with an exercise. I really like that. It just, I'm, I was, I was doing the exercise myself when I was, um, uh, when, when I last called myself an idiot. And it was when I tripped on the stairs yesterday morning and spilled some coffee on the stairs. Um, and I remember being really stressed yesterday cuz we just moved into a new house where everything was all over the place, walking up the stairs. And it's only today I discovered that one of the stairs is very slightly higher than the rest of them, and that's probably why I tripped. So I'm thinking back, doing my WTFG on that. Um, and the times when I do, when I do call myself an idiot is usually when something's— I'm really stressed about something, or we're doing a pod the next day and I feel like I've not prepared enough or something like that. So this is, this is really cool. Did you make that up?

Leanne ElliottYeah, did I make it up? The exercise itself? No, the exercise itself is, is a reflective practice to help us identify thinking errors. I think it's actually based in neuroscience where I read it from initially. Um, but in terms of the WTFG, yeah, I'd I thought I'd do something catchier because you always shout at me for not catchy names. So you always shout at me, extreme thinking. Well, there we go.

Al ElliottThere's another example. So, Leigh, how much have we, have we covered everything? Should we just quickly go through those 3 again?

Leanne ElliottYes. So we have talked about the pillars of a human-centric culture and had 3 awesome guests to help us do that along the way. That first pillar is intentional collaboration. The second pillar is flexible work experiences. And finally, the third pillar, empathetic management.

Al ElliottSo if you enjoyed listening to our guests, go find them on LinkedIn, uh, give them a poke. Because can you— is that still a thing on LinkedIn? Are you allowed to do that? Can you write on their wall?

Leanne ElliottI don't think in these times one is allowed to poke.

Al ElliottBut go and, go and give them a nudge. Tell them that you listened to— you heard them on the Truth, Lies and Work pod. and that you enjoyed them, you thought they were great. If you didn't think they were great, then just keep your, keep your thoughts to yourself.

Leanne ElliottKeep that judgment to yourself. We have learned.

Al ElliottBrilliant. Okay, so next week, have we— have we got about 5 episodes planned and we're not sure which one's coming in next week. Do we— have we finalized it, Lee?

Leanne ElliottYes, we do. September next week, getting back into the full swing of it. Maybe you've had an indulgent summer. I know that we accidentally have. in terms of the old cash money. So we will definitely be looking for ways to improve our financial wellbeing on the run-up to Christmas, and your employees may well be looking to do the same. So we are talking financial wellbeing next week. We have 3 incredible guests we are talking to. Am I allowed to say?

Al ElliottNo, I think we should keep it for next week because one, one of them you've been chasing down for about 9 months and you finally got.

Leanne ElliottI haven't been chasing, I haven't been chasing them down. It's taken me that long to pluck up the courage to actually get in touch with them and ask them. Once I asked, they were like, yeah, sure, sounds great.

Mel MurphyAnd I was like, really?

Al ElliottWell, there you go. There's a cliffhanger. There's a cliffhanger to leave it on. So we'll see you next week. Bye-bye.

Leanne ElliottIt seems to be flexible work experience. Is it just the little Eyes and teeth.

Al ElliottEyes and teeth.

Leanne ElliottTits and teeth.

Al ElliottOh, tits and teeth. I'm leaving that in.

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